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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-03-07

---Logopened Sat Mar 07 00:00:37 2009
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01:50<el_en>Saturday, the seventh of March, two thousand and nine, Anno Domini.
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02:12<Alberth>at least for some of us
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04:45<Meincfe>can ne 1 tell me how topacth Open TTD
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04:58<Eddi|zuHause>i have not understood a single word.
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05:26<Alberth>He expected people to react very quickly :)
05:27<planetmaker>i guess :P
05:27<planetmaker>oh, and a wonderful good morning to all :)
05:33<Splex>any big upgrades in openttd in the last couple months?
05:33<Splex>and good morning to you
05:33<Splex>or good evening...if you are in asia
05:35<|Japa|>asia? eveming?
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05:35<|Japa|>I'm in india, and it's 16:05
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05:37<Eddi|zuHause>i guess in japan it's 18:36
05:37<[wito]>more like 19:36, I think
05:39*welshdragon has built a single track line. but isn't sure if pbs will break
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>PBS usually works fine with single track
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>as long as you put signals only on the double track sections
05:41<welshdragon>there are 'dynamic' (passing) loops
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>you can put a signal halfway through the single track section, that increases throughput when two trains want to go into the same direction, but reduces overall capacity, because it can block with 3 trains
05:42<Alberth>Splex: we have 0.7-beta 1, we can now download goodies in-game (newgrfs, scenario's, save-games)
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>blocking risk can be reduced with one way signals, but that again reduces throughput
05:44<welshdragon>thanks Eddi|zuHause
05:48<Splex>alberth: cool, hows the progress on the new graphics?
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05:49<bubersson>Splex: OpenGFX is done in moderate climate ;)
05:50<@Darkvater>it's a pity devving is halted on that
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>,%207.%20Jan%201931.png <- single track sections are most effective when trains load rather long
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05:52<Splex>Darkvater, on what?
05:54<Splex>opengfx is drop-in replacement?
05:54<Splex>how about the 32bpp gfx?
05:54<@Darkvater>mwa I'm not too fond of 32bpp
05:55<@Darkvater>there is no coherent style, no coordination, i don't see it becoming anything in the near future
05:55<@Darkvater>especially the BIG-tile version
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06:05<|Japa|>I want an OTTD version of the cartoon set from simutrans
06:08<Splex>would be nice if there was a 3d viewer... then all the objects/buildings could begin as simple 3d objects, people could create the upgrades over time.
06:08<Splex>i don't see the reason for going to 32bbp... why not just go 3d
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>i'm going away for probably about a month.
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06:10<Splex>that was abrupt
06:10<@Darkvater>don't bother coming back, ey
06:11<Splex>actually that comic set looks pretty cool
06:11<Splex>easy to see everything
06:12<Splex>does simutrans aim to compete with openttd?
06:13<Ammler>can't, it would have alreadyl lost ;-)
06:13<@Darkvater>both games have their respective strengths
06:16<@Darkvater>"My bees are in California pollinating almonds," he said. "In the middle of March they are going to be trucked all the way across the United States all the way back to Florida to pollinate oranges then they are trucked another thousand miles north to pollinate apples in Pennsylvania.
06:16<@Darkvater>that's fucking sick
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06:18<[wito]>So who'll be making the newGRF with beehives, apple farms and orange farms? ;D
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06:24<Splex>they talk about the bees having various ailments... did they ever consider that they need to STOP SPRAYING?
06:24<Splex>like their deaths are natural... hah
06:24<@Darkvater>but that would mean less profit
06:25<[wito]>also, animals DO do weird things. :P
06:25<[wito]>Bees are no exception
06:28<Splex>surely not as weird as the animals called humans.
06:28<Splex>Darkvater.... yeah... less profit, they would rather make more profit at the expense of everyone else
06:29<Splex>just like the mountaintop removal coal mining
06:30<Splex>""Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. said this about the Coal River Valley: ”I flew over these mountains and I saw what [the coal companies] were doing and if the American people could see what I saw there would be a revolution in this country…”""
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06:34<Alberth>Oh, how much we care about the environment.
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06:41<Splex>lol.... its funny when people say 'SAVE THE EARTH'.... the earth doesn't need saving... we are nothing but fleas on this earth... its up to us if we want to survive on this earth.
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07:34<[wito]>anyone know of any newGRFs that adds late-1800s trains?
07:35<[wito]>I know the Japanese train set goes back to around 1920ish, no?
07:36<Ammler>the feature is a young OpenTTD only thing, so there aren't many sets, yet.
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07:40<[wito]>what is 2cc?
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07:42<[wito]>oh, hah
07:44<[wito]>2cc only goes back to 1913, tho'
07:52<[wito]>except monorail, which goes all the way back to 1880ish. :P
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07:57<Ammler>[wito]: no monorail in 2cc
07:57<[wito]>Ammler: yeah there is
07:57<[wito]>it's used for metro lines
07:58<Ammler>which means, no monorail :P
07:58<@petern>i have a version of that that works properly ;)
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08:01<[wito]>so the tracs are supposed to look like metro tracks, I take it? :P
08:01<Alberth>The C++ compilers nowadays give way too many warnings :P , now I have to make my patch a whole lot bigger.
08:01<Ammler>or using monorail and metro the same time, I guess ;-)
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08:03<Alberth>I like the idea of a monorail running through the city streets and a tram driving 300+ km/h.
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08:06<[wito]>Alberth: 300km/h+ trams are simply uneconomic
08:06<Alberth>I'd like to extend the WindowDesc data structure with two fields. What would be better, modifying all instances to a constructor call with optional additional fields, or adding "NULL, 0" to each of the instances?
08:06<[wito]>the start-stopping makes it silly. :P
08:07<Alberth>I have seen cities that cover a large part of the map. There it may be useful
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08:15<Ammler>Alberth: subway :P
08:17<Alberth>you won't need any form of heating in the houses, the air friction of trams driving through the tunnels would generate enough heat probably :)
08:17<Alberth>Blowing people off their feet at the stations :)
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08:25<Alberth>hello Wolf01
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09:29<[wito]>are self-plopping industries tied to the date?
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10:20<Wolf01>the bananas' signup terms must be updated since now there are scenarios and heightmaps too
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11:11<[wito]>What is the £300 'Other' expense?
11:12<Aali>life insurance
11:13<|Japa|>I was wonderig
11:13<Alberth>or rent for the HQ, we are not sure.
11:14<[wito]>Well, I don't have a HQ yet, so can't be that. :P
11:14<@Rubidium>fees for the chamber of commerce ;)
11:14<goodger>Alberth: you already paid to build the sodding HQ, you can't rent it ¬.¬
11:15<Alberth>Maintenance costs for all the statues then?
11:16<[wito]>Alberth: no statues. :P
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11:16<|Japa|>when I start a game and immediateley pay off my loan, there's still a monthly other payment
11:16<goodger>well, the expense is being generated by code
11:17<goodger>it must be possible to find out what it is
11:17<Alberth>goodger: sure, it is just that nobody bothered to find out exactly.
11:17<[wito]>it could be an adjustor to avoid passive companies
11:17<[wito]>designed to do exactly that and nothing else
11:18<@Darkvater>|Japa|: don't you know it costs to borrow money? Even if you had it for one day?
11:18<goodger>though it'd take a long time to prevent a passive company with a £300pa cost
11:18<@Darkvater>banks are no charity institutions mind you
11:18<goodger>specifically, 334 years before slipping into the read
11:19<|Japa|>well, a long as it stays that, I can still watch an AI game
11:19<@petern>isn't it £300 a month?
11:19<db48x>salary for the CEO
11:19<@petern>oh, no
11:19<@Rubidium>banks are thieves, con artists and a legalised form of gambling
11:21<@Darkvater>hehe, frustrated? ;)
11:21<[wito]>goodger: no
11:21<[wito]>because in order to get your expenses as low as possible you'd have to repay all loan
11:21<[wito]>so after the first year you'd be at least -300
11:22<@Rubidium>Darkvater: no, I just know too much about how banks actually work
11:22<@Darkvater>Rubidium: exactly like you described :)
11:23<@Darkvater>it's incredible that you can make so much profits, even percentually for doing nothing more than pushing OTHER people's money around
11:23<@Darkvater>something's really fucked up in the world
11:23<@Rubidium>like did you know that if you transfer money from one savings account to another that even though it seems to be on the other savings account, withdrawing it the same day will cause debit interest?
11:23<@Darkvater>yes...I noticed. I was furious by the way (it was within the same bank even!)
11:24<@Darkvater>I called them, gave'em hell and got the money back :)
11:24<@Rubidium>for the interest money gets basically withdrawn at 0:00 and money gets added 23:59, i.e. you lose a day of interest
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11:25<db48x>banks earn money by making loans to businesses
11:25<db48x>you could do that directly, if you wanted
11:26<@Darkvater>db48x: hehe, funny. If they really just did that, there would be no worldwide crisis right now
11:27<@Rubidium>did you also know that if I open a bank account and put 1 million on it that the bank then may (and will!) lend out several millions? And if they 'rinse' and 'repeat' that they lend out several tens of millions for that single million that is actually in the bank?
11:28<@Darkvater>about tenfold, yes
11:28<@Rubidium>which is why they get into HUGE problems when everybody withdraws a few percent of their savings OR when a few percent can't repay their loans
11:28<db48x>they can only do that by borrowing the extra from somewhere else thoguh
11:28<db48x>they don't magically create the money
11:28<@Rubidium>db48x: THEY DO
11:29<@Darkvater>ah, the innocent mind ;), what joyful times those were
11:29<@Darkvater>hmm, question: anyone know of an easy, simple and fast rsync program for windows?
11:29<@Rubidium>use wubi ;)
11:30<@Darkvater>eh, I don't want ubuntu on windows :)
11:30<Alberth>What bothers me big time is that a simple money transfer from Holland to the UK costs 20 euro's just for the transfer.
11:30<@Darkvater>the UK should just introduce the EURO
11:31<stillunknown>Alberth: transaction costs?
11:31<@Darkvater>hmm, deltacopy looks interesting
11:31<Alberth>stillunknown: yep :(
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11:33<stillunknown>Alberth: i thought money transfers within the EEG were free of transaction costs if done proplerly?
11:33<@Darkvater>stillunknown: only euro countries
11:34<frosch123>did you know that lehmann paid boni of average $600 000 per staff in 2007 :)
11:34<goodger>yeah, I was once charged £10 to receive a transfer of £26.99 from Germany
11:35<@Darkvater>frosch123: did you know that Morgan Stanley paid a few billion in bonuses with government bailout money?
11:35<@Rubidium>db48x: you should watch "Money as debt"
11:36<Alberth>I don't know how much money owen gets from main-land Europe, but it may be useful to setup a bank account at the other side of the channel just to avoid these costs.
11:36<frosch123>Darkvater: yes, but those were for the past.
11:36<stillunknown>Darkvater: well, my online banking system says otherwise, the UK is part of the European Economic Space (or whatever it's called)
11:36<@Darkvater>yes but with public money paid to prevent MS from going bankrupt? that's just wrong, really, really wrong
11:37<Alberth>stillunknown: do a test, give owen some money, and see how much the transaction costs
11:37<@orudge>I don't know what the transaction costs are on the other side
11:37<@Darkvater>I usually pay through paypal never cost me a thing
11:37<@orudge>my bank tends to charge me £1 to receive from Europe these day
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11:37<@orudge>(I'm sure they didn't used to, but oh well)
11:37<@orudge>as for PayPal, I get charged fees to receive money from anywhere
11:38<@orudge>with the separation of my business from my personal stuff though, I will likely get a personal PayPal account, which will be fee-free
11:38<@orudge>which would be better for OpenTTD, etc
11:38<Alberth>orudge: would that mean it is cheaper to have you pay the transaction costs?
11:38<@orudge>Alberth: I doubt it
11:38<@orudge>I get charged the £1 anyway by my bank
11:39<@orudge>[16:30:15] <Alberth> What bothers me big time is that a simple money transfer from Holland to the UK costs 20 euro's just for the transfer. <-- €20, really?
11:39<@orudge>that is a rather silly amount
11:40<@orudge>I think most people who transfer money to me from Europe pay very little fees, if anything
11:40<@orudge>as in a couple of euros at most
11:40<Alberth>yeah, I thought so too. 15 euro fixed cost, and some small percentage with a minimum of 5 euro :(
11:40<stillunknown>I think it can be fee-less, if you have an IBAN and BIC number.
11:40<@orudge>I think it costs me £20 or something to send money to Australia
11:41<@orudge>but not to Europe, heh
11:41<@orudge>I do of course have an IBAN and BIC
11:41*goodger pays about fifteen quid a time to pay his european royalty-payees
11:41<Alberth>stillunknown: no, i used those
11:41<goodger>fortunately they are contracted to have said amount deducted from said royalties, but nonetheless
11:42<stillunknown>Alberth: which bank?
11:42<Alberth>stillunknown: Postbank, ING nowadays
11:43<stillunknown>Alberth: check the online system, it clearly says there is no fee if done properly
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11:56<@petern>pom te pom
11:59<@orudge>you're a pom
11:59<@petern>no u
12:04<frosch123>yeah, usually I type "=" instead of "==". Now I managed to do it the other way around \o/
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12:18<Zuu>In delphi you have := instead of = for assignments and = instead of == for comparsion. That I handle quite fine. But VB(A) is different, there you need to use = for both cases, which comfuses me sometimes :)
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12:23<goodger>Zuu: that's because it's a bastardised BASIC, and BASIC was designed to be simple like that
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12:30<Alberth>I get a compiler warning in fios.cpp:
12:31<Alberth>(local copy of clean trunk)
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12:35<frosch123>cool attribute, never heard of it :)
12:35<Alberth>me neither
12:36<@SmatZ>frosch123: Alberth __attribute__((warn_unused_result)) or so
12:36<@SmatZ>I was thinking about use it for MallocT-like functions...
12:36<frosch123>SmatZ: that is also written in the paste :)
12:36<@SmatZ>frosch123: right :)
12:37<frosch123>who would be so stupid to not use the result of malloc?
12:37<@SmatZ>frosch123: yeah, that was the reason why I didn't apply that ;)
12:37<@SmatZ>though, someone could misuse ReallocT...
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12:57<Alberth>This looks like a good patch:
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12:58<@Rubidium>nah, it doesn't
12:59<el_en>it certainly doesn't.
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13:01<el_en>misuse of assert.
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13:02<@SmatZ>Alberth: update to most recent revision
13:03<@Rubidium>1) don't treat system responses with asserts because in most cases bad system responses happen when asserts are disabled (as per Murphy's law)
13:03<Alberth>ah, much nicer indeed.
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13:04<@Rubidium>2) someone might intentionally create a file where the return value would be 0 thus asserting unneededly for lots of people when it gets distributed via bananas or the forum
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13:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15634 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Fix (r15632): some compilers seem to warn about the return value of fscanf.
13:08<@SmatZ>CIA-1: you are late
13:08<el_en>2.5) assert is for catching conditions that are supposed to be impossible, things that should never happen. an input file containing too few integers *is not* an impossible situation, it *can* happen easily.
13:09<Alberth>right, less assert(), more 'return failed' :)
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13:12<@Darkvater>el_en: well, we've used this idiom for a very long time; basically: "do not trust the user"
13:13<@Darkvater>eg, in the beginning all CMD_ commands were checked using asserts :O
13:13<@Darkvater>we used to believe in the good of man
13:13<Alberth>that didn't last long, I suppose :)
13:13<@Darkvater>no, not too long
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13:21<|Japa|>#1 in the list of people I don't trust: me
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13:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15635 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp station_base.h): -Fix [FS#2707]: don't allow more than 64 road vehicles to reserve a slot at a single road stop. 255 + 1 gives trouble, but 64 is even more than the roadstop would be able to handle within the slot timeout time.
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13:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r15636 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt unfinished/greek.txt):
13:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-03-07 18:58:32
13:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: greek - 211 fixed, 4 changed by hellis (215)
13:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 2 changed by dlunch (2)
14:06<Alberth>(or rather, the let the games begin)
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14:37<@Darkvater>eh :P
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14:38<frosch123>trying to sync a pre c++ patch?
14:39<Sacro>if you open an old PBS game will it convert it to YAPP?
14:39<Sacro>:( warum nicht?
14:40<frosch123>the readme says, old savegame should be send to sacro, he would convert them by hand
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14:44<@SmatZ>Sacro: the old-PBS design is very different from YAPP
14:45<Sacro>it should transfer over fine
14:45<Sacro>you can replace YAPP quite easily i'm sure
14:46<@SmatZ>how would you like to convert bidir PBS?
14:46<@SmatZ>there's no equivalent
14:49<Sacro>i don't recall there ever being bidir PBS
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14:50<@SmatZ>so go and try r3472
14:50<@SmatZ>or rather r3470
14:52<@petern>i am so glad i got it removed ;p
14:53<Sacro>so how did bidir pbs work...
14:54<@petern>it didn't work
14:54<@petern>it sucked
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15:07<[wito]>any way to upgrade town-built road bridges with tramway?
15:14<frosch123>use the usual tram-build tool and click on the bridgehead
15:14<frosch123>same for tunnels and competitor's stuff
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15:20<[wito]>dunno why it didn't work before
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15:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15637 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp:
15:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: when you try to protect something from doing something it shouldn't be
15:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: doing, make sure that the actions happening after that, doesn't start doing what
15:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: it shouldn't be doing. This of course would only happen in rare corner cases.
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15:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r15638 /trunk/src/ai/ai_config.cpp: -Fix: there is a time in your life you should stop coding for a project. You know that time is there when you make two huge mistakes in just 10 lines of code. I wish you all the best of luck :) (ps: HUGE mistakes!)
15:58<frosch123>comparing unsigned stuff with zero is also my most favorite mistake :)
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16:36<el_en>seven of nine acting as the doctor
16:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15639 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt town_cmd.cpp): -Change: When you disable "Towns are allowed to build roads", pressing "Expand" in the town window in the scenario editor will no longer build roads.
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16:41<el_en>succeeding well in doing so.
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16:57<@petern>doctor who?
16:57<@Rubidium>the 11th one
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16:58<@Rubidium>petern: have you seen FS#2708?
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17:07<Aali>any progress on the raging memleak issue?
17:07<frosch123>IIRC noone could reproduce it
17:08<Aali>I can reproduce FS#2706
17:08<Aali>in r15591
17:10<@Rubidium>the major problem is that it's hard to measure 'leaking' against normal building up caches, especially in the first few minutes
17:10<Aali>on fastforward I can see the memory usage going up by the second
17:11<Aali>we'll see if it slows down
17:11<@Rubidium>I can't (on Linux!)
17:11<Aali>this is a windows machine, maybe that has something to do with it?
17:12<@Rubidium>that's something I've been saying for weeks
17:13<Aali>funny thing
17:13<Aali>if I keep it minimized, it keeps increasing forever
17:13<Aali>open the window, then minimize it again, and mem usage drops by 1-5MB
17:14<Sacro>that's quite an impossible thing to test
17:14<frosch123>Aali: then try to locate the problem. alternate dedicated server/client, all news/no news, different video/sound drivers (esp. the 'null' ones), ...
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17:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r15640 /trunk/src/network/network.cpp: -Fix [FS#2712]: game crashes when network pools are empty, so always allocate at least one pool block
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17:41<heffer>anyone here for some quick debugging?
17:41<heffer>i'll try to get the compile error in english
17:42<PeCeT_full>hey, who has the newest (I mean 0.6.0-0.7.0 versions) version of OpenTTD for PSP?
17:42<@Rubidium>PeCeT_full: nobody?
17:42<@Rubidium>last I know of is 0.5-ish
17:42<heffer>here we go:
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17:42<PeCeT_full>I have only 0.5.3
17:42<heffer>fileio.cpp: In function 'void ChangeWorkingDirectory(const char*)':
17:43<heffer>fileio.cpp:810: error: invalid conversion from 'const char*' to 'char*'
17:43<+glx>Aali: leaks detection on windows is quite hard
17:44<@SmatZ>heffer: update to trunk
17:44<@Rubidium>heffer: what're you using? compiler, os, etc?
17:44<Aali>glx: indeed
17:44<heffer>Fedora rawhide (to become Fedora 11) using gcc 4.4 with trunk from a few minutes ago
17:45<@SmatZ>heffer: ottd is regularly tested for compilation under variaous versions of gcc ranging from gcc 2.95 to gcc4.4
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17:47<heffer>well for me it does not seem to work
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17:48<@SmatZ>[23:44:17] <SmatZ> heffer: update to trunk
17:48<@SmatZ>[23:44:17] <Rubidium> heffer: what're you using? compiler, os, etc?
17:48<@SmatZ>[23:44:17] <glx> heffer:revision?
17:48<Yexo>strrchr strikes again
17:48<@Rubidium>so what mutilations does fedora do to gccc
17:49<@Rubidium>oh... and fedora core 4 sucks
17:49<heffer>well we switched to gcc 4.4 about a week ago and since in fedora it is set to be strict it revealed some bugs
17:49<+glx>heffer: "from a few minutes ago" is not a revision ;)
17:50<@Rubidium>especially because a few could (with a not-so-liberal view) mean anything between 0 and 5 minutes
17:50<heffer>well if nothing in fileio.cpp changed within the last 20 minutes my revision could be assumed as being 15640
17:50<heffer>but if it helps i could check out the newest trunk right now and try again
17:52<heffer>Rubidium, if you hate FC4 you should try F11 when it's out :P
17:52<heffer>i'm sure it can break your system, too
17:53<@Rubidium>that doesn't have the same compiler etc. as FC4
17:53<@Rubidium>which is kinda needed to debug FS#2703
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17:56<@Rubidium>Patch0: gcc44-hack.patch
17:56<@Rubidium>that sounds very promising when it's in gcc.spec
17:58<heffer>sure :)
17:59<heffer>should i file a bug or is this something that can be solved quickly?
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18:01<@SmatZ>I wonder where is defined strrchr should return "const char *"
18:01<@SmatZ>in what standard
18:02<@SmatZ>hmm bad :-x
18:02<@SmatZ>so there are different definitions for C-like strrchr and C++-like strrchr?
18:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15641 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix: some gcc compilers seem to be chosing the C++ standard for strrchr, others the C standard...
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18:03<heffer>i'll try that
18:06<@SmatZ>const char * strstr ( const char * s1 , const char * s2 );
18:06<@SmatZ> char * strstr ( char * s1 , const char * s2 );
18:06<@Rubidium>char *strstr(const char *s1, const char *s2) <- in C
18:07<@SmatZ>char *strrchr(const char *s, int c);
18:07<@SmatZ>pasted the wrong function, sorry :)
18:07<@SmatZ>but it seems if strrchr(char*,int) was used, it would return char* too
18:09<heffer>ok. i'm off then. thank you for your help. it's much appreciated
18:09<@SmatZ>hmm, filename is char*...
18:09<@SmatZ>I am failing to understand this behaviour then
18:09<@Rubidium>SmatZ: filename?
18:10<@SmatZ>oh am I failing today!
18:10<@SmatZ>indeed it seems to work as expected
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18:12*Rubidium is going to break FC4 to the point that it doesn't openttd to crash in it's own libs
18:12<@Rubidium>or that the fracking thing does want to find out what packages it can update
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18:18<energetic>`how would anyone suggest implementing a goalserver?
18:19<energetic>simply patch ottd? or...?
18:21<Aali>now this is just weird
18:22<Aali>the minimize/maximize trick to kill the memleak works with the console window for a dedicated server
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18:25<@Rubidium>so what does minimize/maximize of the console window change?
18:25<Aali>who knows
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18:27<@SmatZ>so even minimising+maximising console window in Windows fixes the memory problem?
18:27<@Rubidium>or rather, what does it trigger in OpenTTD? glx do you got a clue 'bout that?
18:28<Aali>it doesn't "fix" the memory problem
18:28<@SmatZ>dihedral's nighly server has the same problem
18:28<Aali>but memory usage drops to "normal" levels
18:28<Aali>and then starts building up again
18:28<@Rubidium>SmatZ: that's his VPS that's acting up!
18:28<+glx>SmatZ: hmm he can use valgrind
18:29<Aali>it seems the longer you wait, the more it drops
18:29<Aali>if you let it go up to like 50MB, you can drop it to 15 in one go, but around 20-24 nothing happens
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18:30<Aali>actually, this seems really random
18:31<@petern>i'm fairly sure minimizing putty has absolutely no affect on openttd within screen...
18:32<Aali>this is obviously some stupid windows thing
18:32<Aali>the question is what openttd is doing "wrong"
18:32<@petern>the memleak isn't
18:33<Aali>but the window thing "fixing" it is
18:34<@SmatZ>Aali: maximising/minimising helps? and what about just giving focus to that window?
18:34<Aali>focus does nothing
18:35<Aali>hmm, can you fastforward with -v null?
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18:36<@SmatZ>Aali: it ffs automatically iirc
18:36<Aali>oh, -v null doesn't even work
18:36<@SmatZ>and stops after 1000 ticks I think
18:37<Aali>right, thats what I'm seeing
18:37<Aali>why is that?
18:37<@SmatZ>it's only useful for benchmarking
18:38<@SmatZ>but if you mass something like -v null:ticks=1000000
18:38<@SmatZ>it will run for 1000000 ticks
18:39<Aali>.. and now I'm getting desyncs
18:40<Aali>dedicated server running the save from FS#2706, minus the AIs, connect with a GUI client
18:40<Aali>desyncs every time
18:41<+glx>real desync or lost connection?
18:41<@SmatZ>yeah, server runs much faster than client...
18:41<Aali>real desync
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18:41<Aali>server is not using -v null
18:42<@SmatZ>I think you get "desync" if server sends two sync frames during client's connecting procedure
18:42<Aali>its not instant
18:46<Aali>so, anyway, made some progress, the intro screen does not leak as much as that savegame :P
18:47<Aali>perhaps not at all
18:47<@SmatZ>Aali: does that happen only in multiplayer?
18:48<Aali>leaks in single player all the same
18:48<@SmatZ>so SP leaks, but intro doesn't? ...
18:48<@SmatZ>and furthermore, those are not leaks
18:48<@SmatZ>but something like waiting events or whatever
18:48<Aali>the savegame from 2706 leaks
18:48<Aali>intro does not
18:49<@SmatZ>because it gets freed when you deminimise the window...
18:49<Aali>is noai/squirrel throwing around a bunch of exceptions or something?
18:52<+glx>yes, suspend/resume is done with exceptions
18:52<Aali>well, no AI's (no pun intended) are running, so that shouldn't happen, right?
18:53<Aali>intro does not leak even when run as a standard SP game
18:54<@SmatZ>AI events are created even when no AIs are running... but are not dispatched to anyone :)
18:54<@SmatZ>can in theory it has something to do with Squirrel leaking?
18:54<@SmatZ>is GC called even when no AIs are running?
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18:55<Aali>let me start some AI's on the intro game, see what happens
18:55<+glx>squirel does nothing if there are no AIs
18:56<Zahl>Aali: just read your flyspray comment, minimizing does the trick here too
18:56<+glx>hmm minimizing means no drawing
18:57<Aali>minimizing doesn't stop the leak
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18:57<Aali>nothing stops the leak
18:57<@SmatZ>Aali: does minimising start the leak?
18:57<Aali>doubt it
18:57<Aali>lets see
18:58<Zahl>isn't it that windows pages out stuff from applications if you minimize them? so it might be the "dead" memory just goes to the pagefile and won't be taken into account by the taskmanager
18:58<@SmatZ>so it starts "leaking" while playing, but when you minimise+unminimise it, it releases memory
18:58<Yexo><@SmatZ> is GC called even when no AIs are running? <- a seperate vm is created per AI that is running, so the GC can't even run without an AI
18:58<Aali>SmatZ: seems so
18:58<Zahl>or is the memory really _freed_ when you minimize
18:59<@SmatZ>Yexo: I see...
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18:59<Zahl>because if it is, it might be a gdi issue
18:59<Aali>it happens to dedicated servers
19:00<@SmatZ>Zahl: even if it leaks in dedicated server too?
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19:00<Aali>actually, it seems the intro game is leaking too, just very slowly
19:00<Zahl>SmatZ: oh, didn't see that
19:00*SmatZ wonders why AI::BroadcastNewEvent doesn't use FOR_ALL_COMPANIES
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19:02<@SmatZ>it doesn't cause leak though :-/
19:04<Aali>oh and its the actual minimize that does the trick
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19:04<Aali>the maximize does nothing
19:07<+glx>intro is stable for me
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19:07<Aali>you sure?
19:07<Aali>load it in SP without grfs, fastforward for a while
19:08<@SmatZ>Aali: a while ago you said intro doesn't leak even when loaded in sp
19:08<Aali>and now I see I was wrong
19:08<Aali>its just ALOT slower
19:09<Aali>but it does increase steadily
19:09<Aali>a year goes by in a few seconds while minimized, and the leak is still barely noticeable
19:12<+glx>I tried a newgame without AIs nor grnfs
19:12<Aali>this is interesting
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19:12<Aali>intro game with no vehicles leaks very very little
19:12<Aali>not sure if its even leaking at all
19:13<+glx>memory is stable (virtual size 59876K, private bytes 14408K)
19:13<+glx>of course I built nothing
19:14<@SmatZ>Aali: Vista there?
19:14<Aali>SmatZ: xp sp3
19:15<@SmatZ>hey, I can run WXP too! :)
19:15*SmatZ boots up his noteboook
19:16<Aali>intro game with vehicles is at 15136k private and rising
19:16<Aali>intro game without vehicles is at 12800k private
19:16<Aali>the game without vehicles has been running for much longer
19:17<Aali>with vehicles is in 2070, without is in 2270
19:18<@SmatZ>Aali: what revision are you running?
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19:19<Aali>its the only clean trunk I had lying around :P
19:20<Aali>oh snap
19:20<@SmatZ>ok, running r15591, intro game in singleplayer, minised, WXP SP3
19:20<Aali>the minimize/maximize thing is bogus
19:20<Aali>that doesn't help at all
19:21<Aali>thats all a swap thing
19:22<@SmatZ>now I am lost
19:22<@SmatZ>you were looking at "Physical memory usage" instead of "Virtual memory size"?
19:23<Aali>actually I was looking at the task manager
19:23<Aali>big mistake
19:24<sexten>what's the hotkey to close all windows in OTTD?
19:24<@SmatZ>or shift+del to *really* delete all pinned ones :-p
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19:25<Aali>game with vehicles is now up to 17012k private
19:25<Aali>game without vehicles is at 12836k
19:26<Zahl>so what we now by now is that mem usage grows faster when there are more trains.. but is it caused by the trains itself or by all the stations and cargo that is transported etc..?
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19:27<Zahl>i think i'm creating a game with no industries and make lots of trains drive around :-D
19:27<Aali>new industries will spawn
19:27<Aali>its a good idea though, try a game with no stations or anything, just a bunch of vehicles
19:28<[wito]>is YAPP in cargodest?
19:28<Zahl>ok i just learned that you need at least one town to play a scenario =)
19:29<Aali>[wito]: yapp is in trunk..
19:32<Zahl>damn how to cheat money? :-D
19:32<@SmatZ>Zahl: air route between two map corners :-p
19:32<@SmatZ>or ctrl+alt+c .. or ctrl+1 if you are running in debug mode ;)
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19:38<Aali>so, turning on all news messages and turning off all of the lost/orders/profit warnings didn't do anything
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19:53<Zahl>SmatZ: just posted my config on FS
19:55<@SmatZ>Zahl: cache_sprites has been invalid config entry for quite long time now ;)
19:55<Zahl>heh ok
19:57<@SmatZ>Zahl: since pre-0.4 :-D
19:57<Zahl>i think i discovered ottd around 0.2.8 or so, so the cfg might actually be that old
19:57<@SmatZ>nah, 0.4.0 knows that variable :)
19:58<Aali>so, got a game set up with no cargo moving around whatsoever, one train going around in a circle
19:58<Aali>going to keep it running overnight
19:58<@SmatZ>but sometimes in 0.4 series it was lost :)
19:59<Zahl>Aali: i got 300 trains running in circles :-D
19:59<Zahl>and please don't tell me there is a feature like "clone this train 100 times"
19:59<Zahl>because i cloned them one by one :P
20:00<Aali>not in trunk
20:00*Ralphis is away
20:00<@SmatZ>@seen Ralphis
20:00<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Ralphis was last seen in #openttd 11 seconds ago: * Ralphis is away
20:01<Aali>Ralphis: next time, please don't announce that in every channel
20:01<Brokkoli>he cannot hear you.. he's away ;)
20:01-!-Ammller is now known as Ammler
20:01<Aali>he can hear me when he gets back
20:01<Ralphis>its cool
20:01<Ralphis>im out
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20:02<@SmatZ>Aali: you scared him away :(
20:02<Zahl>seems pretty non-leaky to me so far here
20:02<Aali>SmatZ: how is that a bad thing?
20:03<@SmatZ>Aali: "only" 114 users here now :)
20:03<Aali>one down, 114 to go..
20:03<@SmatZ>but some time ago, there were only ~100 users
20:03<@SmatZ>so it seems OTTD is becoming more popular ;)
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20:08<@SmatZ>@seen yorick
20:08<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: yorick was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 6 days, 6 hours, 30 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: * yorick slaps Maarten- around with a black acer ferrari
20:10<@SmatZ>@seen Bjarni
20:10<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 0 hours, 49 minutes, and 58 seconds ago: <Bjarni> I know I should be, but I slept during the afternoon so...
20:17<@SmatZ>@seen Tron
20:17<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Tron was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 3 weeks, 5 days, 11 hours, 53 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <Tron> gcc 2.95 is plain obsolete (even has several bugs in its C++ part). further at the very least the justifications given are extremely oversimplified.
20:17<@SmatZ>@seen ludde
20:17<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: ludde was last seen in #openttd 20 weeks, 6 days, 16 hours, 32 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <ludde> ;)
20:17<@SmatZ>@seen vurlix
20:17<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: I have not seen vurlix.
20:17*goodger slaps SmatZ's hand away from the @ key
20:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r15642 /trunk/src/ (road_cmd.cpp saveload/afterload.cpp town.h town_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: use a default parameter value in CalcClosestTownFromTile
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21:07<@SmatZ>Zahl: it seems there is something going on... memory increased for ~12MB to ~44MB in ~3 hours...
21:07<@SmatZ>in my default config :)
21:10<Zahl>i tried memory validator in the meantime, but i don't really understand its output :-D
21:15<@SmatZ>Zahl: it seems "load game 500trains.sav, abandon game, load game, abandon game,... " many times increases the memory usage
21:15<@SmatZ>under windows
21:15<@SmatZ>do you agree?
21:15<@SmatZ>I am not sure I am measuring the memory correctly though
21:16<@SmatZ>I am looking at the "Virtual memory size" in the Task manager
21:18<Zahl>i used the normal memory column... the virtual one actually has a value that is 100k smaller... o.O
21:18<Zahl>but yes, loading the game again and again increases memory usage by about 500k for that savegame every time
21:19<Sacro>i just lost the game :(
21:24<thingwath>that is not so hard
21:30<welshdragon>that's what she said
21:31<@SmatZ>yes, it is
21:33<thingwath>play 100 years without cargodest and then turn it on, the results are wonderful :)
21:42<welshdragon>thingwath: is there a recent build of cargodest?
21:43<thingwath>hm, not really, just some patch at the forum for ~r15500, but that is enough for me :)
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21:48<@SmatZ>Zahl: can it be some imperfect memory manager in windows? like allocating, freeing and then allocating memory makes some memory still marked as "Used virtual memory"?
21:49<Zahl>SmatZ: maybe.. especially as it doesn't seem to happen on some other OSes
21:49<Aali>it does happen on other OSes
21:50<Aali>and if that were true, every shitty windows app would leak memory
21:50<Aali>they dont
21:50<Zahl>on the other hand, i believe windows should be quite ok on this secotr since 2000 or XP
21:50<@SmatZ>Aali: it does? that load&abandon&load... doesn't happen on my linux :-x
21:50<Zahl>yeah, Rubidium also said he can't reproduce it on linux
21:50<+glx>Aali: but on other OS it's "easy" to check memory leaks
21:51<Zahl>but what about the issue peter had with a linux dedicated and virtual memory.. is that related?
21:52<Aali>who knows
21:52<Zahl>i didn't really follow that conversation earlier
21:52<Aali>there's something going on
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21:54<Zahl>i'm running a linux dedicated too, should i check the mem usage? :-D
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22:20<@Belugas>who has memory to waste? being virtual or real?
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22:42<Zahl>i'm leaking awakeness, should go to bed
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22:51<@Belugas>#thus said the raven
22:51<@Belugas>#NEVER MORE!
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 08 00:00:40 2009