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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-03-25

---Logopened Wed Mar 25 00:00:00 2009
---Daychanged Wed Mar 25 2009
00:00<eMjay88>but it may be slightly easier, instead of having to explore every branch for signals, you just have to find one and join that signal block
00:00<Sacro>YAPP is very good but there needs another overhaul
00:00<Sacro>to sort out signals on bridges/in tunnels
00:00<eMjay88>:O that would be awesome
00:01<eMjay88>ok, so tell me if i'm wrong here, when a signal is placed, it searches the track behind the light
00:02<eMjay88>if it finds no other signal, it creates a new SignalBlock and adds itself
00:02<eMjay88>if it finds another signal, it adds itself to the found signal's SignalBlock
00:02<eMjay88>(as an entrance, exit or both)
00:02<eMjay88>the SignalBlock then manages all the signals that are in it's list
00:03<eMjay88>its list*
00:04<eMjay88>does that sound like it would work?
00:04<racetrack>yeah sounds reasonable
00:05<eMjay88>sadly I have no idea how the signals work now, so no idea where to start :P
00:05<racetrack>need to be able to merge them etc
00:05<racetrack>if you delete a signal or whatever
00:05<racetrack>haha
00:05<racetrack>ExploreSegment() in signal.cpp is the big thing to understand
00:05<eMjay88>oh yeah, so if a signal is removed, the SignalBlocks that it was an entrance and exit to get merged
00:06<racetrack>and I only know about it because I've had to twist it quite a bit to get drive-through depots to work
00:06<eMjay88>okie doke
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00:06<eMjay88>I'll try to do some research soon (short on time lately :S)
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00:06<racetrack>the basic gist is that code outside signal.cpp adds interesting tiles (eg the current location of a vehicle) to a set and then calls UpdateSignalsInBlock() (or something like that anyway)
00:06<racetrack>which eventually gets down into ExploreSegment()
00:07<racetrack>which loops through all the tiles/directions in the set
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00:07<racetrack>for each one, it determines which tile to go to next and in which direction, and adds it to the end of the set
00:07<racetrack>based on possible exits from that tile/track
00:07<racetrack>with signals, depots, etc being "end of line" (ie nothing added to set)
00:08<racetrack>while its doing this, its looking at each tile for trains and other interesting things and setting flags appropriately
00:08<racetrack>so when if finishes, you get a set of bits describing what it found in the block
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00:13<eMjay88>a set of bits...
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00:13<eMjay88>like all the flags/enums?
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00:14<racetrack>enum SigFlags in signal.cpp
00:15<racetrack>http://docs.openttd.org/signal_8cpp.html#c8c365399f522623faf3be30c8344259
00:15<racetrack>hmm this is very interesting
00:22<eMjay88>ok, so which one gets called to initiate the update?
00:22<eMjay88>a train adds all the track that it covers using AddTrackToSignalBuffer?
00:23<eMjay88>then uses UpdateSignalsInBuffer?
00:25<racetrack>UpdateSignalsOnSegment is used mostly ..
00:25<racetrack>it usually starts at a single tile, the train doesn't need to add all the track it covers
00:25<racetrack>the segment walker will sort all that out
00:26<racetrack>TrainMovedChangeSignals looks like the main call in train_cmd
00:27<racetrack>the other calls to UpdateSignalsOnSegment are a bit more situational
00:27<racetrack>(reversing, leaving a depot, cleaning up after a crash)
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00:30<eMjay88>So if I were to create a
00:31<eMjay88>dammit, strike that
00:31<eMjay88>ok, currently a Signal block is referred to as a signal segment right?
00:31<eMjay88>ie: SIGSEG_FREE, SIGSEG_FULL, SIGSEG_PBS
00:31<racetrack>yep
00:32<eMjay88>and UpdateSignalsOnSegment returns the state of the segment that the tile that is passed in is in
00:32*eMjay88 rereads
00:32<eMjay88>yep, i think it makes sense :P
00:33<racetrack>yes thats right
00:33<racetrack>my first answer was "no", then I reread and reparsed all the ins and ises
00:33<racetrack>:P
00:40<eMjay88>what is the "Buffer" is that _globset?
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00:42<racetrack>I think so
00:42<racetrack>you load up the globset, transfer it into the tbdset and go searching
00:42<racetrack>the assertions all over signal.cpp suggest its supposed to be that way
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00:43<eMjay88>yeah from what I can see, you seed your search with _globset
00:45<eMjay88>then, UpdateSignalsInBuffer populates _tbdset and calls ExploreSegment
00:49<eMjay88>and ExploreSegment loops over the set of tiles in _tbdset looking for signal type tiles, adding them to _tbuset
00:50<eMjay88>then using the flags that are returned from ExploreSegment, UpdateSignalsAroundSegment set the signal tiles in _tbuset
00:50<eMjay88>am i right?
00:52<racetrack>I think so. which is to say, it sounds pretty close to my own understanding but this code confused me for quite a while, and I deciphered it on my own. so there's a chance we're both completely off and we've never know
00:52<racetrack>we'd
00:52<racetrack>but it seems like a reasonably sane way to do it, so lets say it is
00:55<racetrack>gtg, back later
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01:33<Forked>coffee! :D
01:33<goodger>huzzah
01:35<eMjay88>just had one myself :P
01:38<eMjay88>exit
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01:39<goodger>*yawn*
01:39<goodger>non-coffee
01:39<goodger>I must find somewhere that sells relentless
01:45<Sacro>hehe
01:46<Sacro>the student drink
01:53<goodger>well, I am a student
01:54<goodger>I don't really love it as a drink, it's just the most concentrated source of caffeine I can find
01:54<goodger>...that isn't some form of coffee
01:55<Forked>doh.. 2MB file limit on forums :\
01:56<goodger>:(
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04:42<Carved>is it possible to find out the seed number after starting the map?
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04:50<dihedral>open the console and type getseed
04:51<Forked>dumdidum. I need more coffee...
04:51<dihedral>i am not sure though if the seed is stored in a save game
04:51<dihedral>and if it is, it does not have to be correct
04:54<Carved>okey, but thx :-)
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05:29<DASPRiD>dihedral, afaik it is stored
05:29<DASPRiD>its required for the landscape :)
05:30<DASPRiD>tho i could be wrong
05:33<dihedral>well, if the sav was created in the scenario editor, then the seed would be wrong :P
05:34<@petern>it's not required for anything after the map is created
05:49<Forked>only two more posts and I'll have last post in all openttd forums... (except noai, but thats a subforum!)
05:51<@Rubidium>that's just because Hyronymus told to ignore newbies (and I reckon people who can't be bothered to read threads)
05:52<Forked>my posts are not random gibberish :\ well except one of them
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06:12<HackaLittleBit>x
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06:13<dihedral>say it! click it!
06:14<Forked>z
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06:15<TodeLoo>Ok Ok playin a bit :)
06:16<dihedral>so you need 2 clients? ^^
06:16<TodeLoo>Todeloo is HackaLittleBit :)
06:16<dihedral>i know
06:16<TodeLoo>Testing Visual IRC
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06:23<@petern># jesus christ
06:23<@petern># save my life
06:23<@petern># jesus chriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiist, save my life
06:23<@petern>hurr
06:23<welshdragon>zomg petern don't sing, it'll rain
06:24<welshdragon>and i have no raincoat
06:24<@petern>np: can - she brings the rain
06:25<@petern># she brings the rain, oh yeah
06:25<welshdragon>:(
06:25<@petern># in the dawn of a silvery day
06:25<dihedral>hey - just had an idea.....
06:25<@petern># clouds seem to melt away
06:25<@petern># she brings the rain, oh yeah
06:25<dihedral>i assume you dont know which os most servers run on :-)
06:25<dihedral>would be quite nice to gather that kind of data :-P
06:25<@petern>for whom?
06:25<@petern>i don't particularly care
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06:26<welshdragon>dihedral: probably debian or Windows server
06:26<@petern>all the important servers (i.e. mine) run on debian
06:26<dihedral>welshdragon, the OR is what i would like to know about ;-)
06:27<dihedral>petern, the percentage of win -> lin -> mac servers would be interesting ^^
06:27<@petern>no it wouldn't
06:27<@petern>lunch would be
06:27*petern wonders how long scan'll take getting back to him
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06:31<@petern>np: genesis - silver rainbow
06:31*petern shall summon rain for welshdragon
06:31*welshdragon summons snow for petern
06:32<@petern>:(
06:32<@petern># to the land that lies
06:32<@petern># beyond the silver rainbow
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06:33*dihedral summons gay suicidal "muslim" (please note the quotes) virgins for petern and welshdragon
06:33<@petern>...
06:33<@petern>what brought that on?
06:34<welshdragon>dihedralshould be punished
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06:35<dihedral>just some very dark sense of humor
06:39<@petern>didn't see anything funny there
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06:40<welshdragon>nor did i
06:40<welshdragon>it was quite racist actually
06:41<dihedral>i did highlight the fact that i used quotes
06:42<welshdragon>it can still be taken as a racist comment
06:42<dihedral>wanting to express with that that they 'call' them selves muslim - but any real muslim is sadened by them
06:42<@petern>oh lol!
06:42<@petern>or not
06:42<dihedral>whoever understood it as racism: sorry
06:43<dihedral>not the intention
06:43<@petern>more like: whoever understood it: lucky
06:44<dihedral>just like the "christians" you can meet in london on the road shouting out aloud "are you a sinner or a winner" - yay - they are just as rubbish, with the only difference that they dont blow themselves up and kill inocent people
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06:56<@petern>np: belle & sebastian - another sunny day
06:57<@petern>although
06:57<@petern>it's raining now :p
06:59<eQualizer>If I want to make a new NewGRF, where do I start reading?
06:59<@petern>wiki.ttdpatch.net
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07:01<eQualizer>Thanks.
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07:06<racetrack>I'm really feeling like I'm starting to get my head around how openttd hangs together
07:07<racetrack>thats probably pretty naive right?
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07:12<dihedral>racetrack, then you are doing better than some other people who try to patch ^^
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07:15<racetrack>yeah well it hasn't been easy
07:16<racetrack>I have time at least
07:17<racetrack>what's the criteria for getting feature patches into trunk?
07:17<racetrack>won't be long before I consider drive-through depots to be finished enough for inclusion
07:18<racetrack>bugs stamped out, a bit of testing by forumgoers, etc
07:21<HackaLittleBit>racetrack did you check if your personal page is ok in the wiki because I was looking at the source and accidentally pressed submit. Hope I did not kill anything :(
07:22<racetrack>HackaLittleBit: looks fine
07:22<HackaLittleBit>Going to change to wiki like you did. Like it
07:23<@petern>you can view the history to see if anything was changed
07:24<HackaLittleBit>Going to see that now
07:25<racetrack>yeah, it didn't change
07:27<HackaLittleBit>fhew :D
07:28<@petern>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/autocleannovehicles.diff
07:28<@petern>^ get rid of old companies with no vehicles
07:28<@petern>(untested)
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07:29<dihedral>petern, very nice... :-)
07:29<dihedral>server side?
07:29<@petern>yes
07:29<dihedral>you want me to patch my server and turn of the Player kick and see what happens after some time?
07:30<@petern>"want" it a bit much. you can test it if you fancy ;)
07:30<dihedral>you know - i usually dont do anything to my server ^^ i am just offering, so if you'd appreciate it, i am happy to do it!
07:31<dihedral>if you dont care, i wont either ^^
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07:31<@petern>certainly i would appreciate it
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07:32<@petern>it better stop raining by 1pm
07:32<@petern>how am i going to sneak off to the 'shops' if it's wet? :o
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07:36<@Rubidium>petern: only go to the web shops ;)
07:40<racetrack>yay, trains I have trains driving straight through dtdepots without stopping unless the order says it should stop
07:40<racetrack>nasty hack, I'll rework it a lot but its there
07:45<Forked>woo!
07:45<racetrack>signal stuff isn't done yet though, so lotsa crashing :)
07:45<racetrack>the signal on the depot is good, trains will wait if there's already a train on the depot tile
07:46<racetrack>but the presignal-like behaviour, looking behind the depot before entering isn't there yet
07:46<racetrack>tomorrow I guess
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09:08<@petern>that was silly
09:10<SpComb>did you reboot your server?
09:11<Ammler>another nice thing releated to "autoclean" would be if you could unprotect unused companies but without reseting them.... (workaround now is to restart the server from time to time)
09:11<@petern>the broadcast address was wrong
09:11<@petern>so i tried changing it
09:11<@petern>BZZT :D
09:12<@petern>Ammler... you can
09:12<Ammler>can you diable the autoreset without disabling autounprotect?
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09:13<@petern>...
09:13<@petern>just enable autoclean_protected and disable autoclean_unprotected
09:14<Ammler>hmm
09:14<@petern>autoclean_protected merely removes the password
09:14<Ammler>those settings are used for the timespan
09:15<@petern>0 = off
09:15<Ammler>he :-)
09:17<@petern>this is not new
09:20<@Belugas>good (same_timezone ? morning : day) all
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09:20<Ammler>heya Belugas
09:20<Ammler>petern: I will add that to the wiki then...
09:21<Ammler>but petern, read that: http://wiki.openttd.org/Autoclean_companies
09:22<Ammler>Ashus is wrong then?
09:24<@petern>yes
09:25<@petern>obviously 1 month is specified with the value 1...
09:26<@petern>it used to be that way
09:27<@petern>so maybe it was right in 2007 :p
09:29<@petern>indeed
09:29<@petern>it's that was in 0.6.3
09:29<@petern>so it's a new 0.7 feature
09:30<@petern>s/was/way/
09:32<@Belugas>oh boy.. Sirkoz is back :(
09:32<dihedral>oh dearses
09:32<dihedral>where is he? did he send you a pm in the forums or what?
09:35<@Belugas>nope
09:35<@Belugas>original vehicle grf in problmes
09:35<@Belugas># TERRIBLE LIE!
09:36<Ammler>does 0.7 features still need the "special" template?
09:38*Belugas thinks that up until version 0.7 is not out , yes
09:39<Sacro>grr, how to pass command line flags in VS
09:39<Forked>in NIN mode are we?
09:40<@petern>sacro, project settings
09:40<Sacro>nine inch nails?
09:40<@petern># no you can't take away from me
09:40<Sacro>zomg
09:40<Sacro>VS can start the server and I can debug the client :o
09:40<@petern>yers
09:41<Sacro>that's epic
09:41<Sacro>saves me doing it
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09:42<Sacro>ouch, my server just IOException'd :(
09:43<@petern>tut
09:43<Sacro>Yeah, it shouldn't do that
09:43<@petern># TERRIBLE LIE!
09:43<@petern>hehe
09:43<dihedral>petern, does your patch need any config settings?
09:43*Sacro shall catch the exception, and drop it :D
09:43<@petern>yes
09:43<dihedral>which?
09:43<@petern>read the patch? :)
09:43<@petern>autoclean_novehicles
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09:47<@Belugas>ho.. auto clean... cool !
09:47<@Belugas>We'll have a car wash in game !
09:47<@Belugas>I love it!!
09:48<@Belugas>my car is so dirty :S
09:48<dihedral>lol
09:48*Sacro writes 'I wish my wife was this dirty' in the muck
09:48<@petern># I WAS UP A BUNNY
09:49<@petern>Belugas, *no vehicles* :(
09:49<@Belugas>:D
09:49<@petern>also misheard as
09:49<@petern># HOW IS EVERYBODY
09:49<@Belugas>i know, petern, i know... i'm teasing you
09:49<@Belugas>tea
09:49<@Belugas>mm...
09:49<@Belugas>i
09:49<@Belugas>'m
09:49<@Belugas>coffeing you!
09:49<planetmaker>:P
09:50<@petern>coffeesing!
09:50<@petern>:D
09:50<@Belugas>lol
09:50<@petern># rain rain go away, come again some other day
09:50<@petern>i tell you
09:50<@petern>he didn't write these lyrics"!
09:51<@petern>where has my typing ability gone all of a sudden?
09:52<Gekz>no u
09:53<@petern>english only
09:54<@Belugas>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=42520 <-- one thing that can be said about the guy, is that he is imaginative. Too bad it's ... futile everytime
09:55<@petern>seems a reason idea to add to the game play
09:55<@petern>i'm not going to do it though :)
09:56<@petern>hmm, problem with rebooting earlier... had openttd servers going :o
09:57<@petern>ah, autosave saves the day
09:57<@Belugas>you think it's a good idea? (suggetion, i mean)
09:59<Hendikins>Stupid question. Is it possible to table a vehicle to remain at a stop for x days /or/ until full?
09:59<@petern>it's not bad, as such
10:00<Hendikins>(simply so it isn't sitting there if there is backlogged cargo)
10:01<@petern>as least it's business/financial related, rather than yet another gratutious 'realistic' visual effect
10:01<@petern>*at
10:02-!-ToDeLoo [~ToDeLoo@195-23-22-153.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:03<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15845 /trunk/src/engine_type.h: -Fix: Ancient comments
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10:09<@Belugas>yeah, i guess you're right about that
10:09<@Belugas>but ho boy... what a thrill it will be to code :S
10:09<@Belugas>sarcastically speaking
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10:11-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
10:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15846 /trunk/src/music_gui.cpp: -Fix: shuffle button text alignment was based on the wrong widget
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10:19<@petern>well
10:20<@petern>we can let someone else do that :)
10:21-!-Yeggstry is now known as Yeggs-coding
10:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15847 /trunk/src/lang/ (49 files in 2 dirs): -Fix (r15837): the 'title' text of the music gui would be drawn big and in blue instead of small and in black
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11:02<@petern># you're so physical
11:03<@Rubidium>I haven't even touched you, so how can I be physical?
11:04<@petern>HOW DOES IT FEEL
11:05<@petern>crap
11:05<@petern>hmm
11:05<@petern>membershipprovider evilness :/
11:05<Noldo_>sounds .netish
11:06<@petern>yes
11:06<@petern>i need to authenticate with one
11:09-!-Turnskin [~x@vpn-pool-78-139-218-161.homenets.tomtelnet.ru] has joined #openttd
11:09<Turnskin>Hi all
11:11<Turnskin>Colleagues, i have a question about ver. 0.7b more.
11:11<planetmaker>then you should go ahead and ask your question :)
11:11<Turnskin>(it was prologue :) )
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11:11<@petern>it was, indeed, not a question.
11:12<+glx>what version is it?
11:12<Turnskin>It seems for me that trains (as well as other stuff) in saves remembers all settings.
11:12<planetmaker>Turnskin: that's by design
11:12<Noldo_>but?
11:12<Turnskin>And the wait_before_one|two_waysignal too.
11:12<planetmaker>has been this way and will stay that way.
11:13<Turnskin>Yep
11:13<Turnskin>But!
11:13<+glx>you can change them
11:13<Turnskin>This setting about is not aviable from menu, isn't it?
11:13<Yexo>you can change the ingame values by using "set" in the console, so "set wait_before_onewaysignal <newvalue>" will change it
11:13<+glx>it's "patch"
11:13<Turnskin>All 3 wait_before_a_signal ones.
11:13<Yexo>leave out <newvalue> to see the current value
11:13<Yexo>glx: patch is just an alias since 0.7
11:13<planetmaker>glx: in 0.7.x "set" should be the preferred word :)
11:14<+glx>really?
11:14<+glx>I didn't know :)
11:14<planetmaker>:D
11:14<Yexo>operation remove-all-references-to-patch-setting changed it :)
11:14<planetmaker>"patch" is only an alias afaik
11:14<planetmaker>for all those old-timers around here :P
11:14<Noldo_>\o/
11:14<Turnskin>Yexo This way my question melted as a ghost :)
11:15<Turnskin>i never used console yet :(
11:15<planetmaker>the key left of "1" opens it
11:15<Ammler>hehe, I saw another usage of console comamnd "patch" already in the forums ;-)
11:16<Yexo>Ammler: patch -p0 < some_patch.diff ?
11:16<planetmaker>and also closes it :)
11:16<Turnskin>BTW now i plan to make an experiment of realism of a game (i saw a phrase in chantopic, but woldn't flame).
11:17<planetmaker>uhh.... r***** !
11:17<Ammler>Yexo: but didn't work, is that now implemented in 0.7? :P
11:17<Yexo>feel free to play a 'realistic' game, just don't try to get new features in *only* because they are realistic
11:17<Yexo>:)
11:17<planetmaker>:)
11:17<planetmaker>well said IMO :)
11:17<Turnskin>I'm interesting in a situation: does the length and a curve of a path before and after a slope influence to the speed enough?
11:18<planetmaker>depends upon the definition of "enough"
11:18<+glx>depends on the curve
11:18<Turnskin>I'm completely agree!
11:18<Yexo>possible if you have "realistic-acceleration" turned on
11:18<planetmaker>:)
11:18<Ammler>Yexo: maybe rename to nicer-acceleration ;-)
11:19<Turnskin>Yep. vaggons' speeds on, acc-on on and other - only ON :)
11:19<Ammler>everything on
11:20<Turnskin>I'm trying to set at least 1 straight tile before and after every slope 1st. Then, i make at least 2 straightway tiles for downstairs path.
11:21<Ammler>and using a newgrf of course...
11:21<planetmaker>Turnskin: an s-curve won't hurt speed
11:21<Turnskin>And i'm trying to don't make much curves after any slope .
11:22<planetmaker>but if two turns in the same direction are found within the train's length it has an effect
11:22<Turnskin>planetmaker Like-\_ ?
11:22<Yexo>no, like \_/
11:22<planetmaker>that's an s-curve afaik
11:22<Turnskin>Uhm.
11:23<Ammler>well, slow-down is also "realistic", imo
11:23<planetmaker>\_/ = same direction; _/- = s-curve
11:23<planetmaker>may ascii-art live long and prosper
11:23<Turnskin>Good bless it! Amen.
11:24<planetmaker>Turnskin: the wiki has a page concerning curve length. It should be reasonably up2date
11:24<Ammler>\_/=2 direction changes
11:24<planetmaker> /\ = 90° = impossible ;) (witht the right setting turned on)
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11:25<Turnskin>But as for me, it _looks_ unrealistic when a path turns at straight after/before a slope. So now my mind is trying to understand that TTD is not the real life :(
11:26<Ammler>2 s-cuves are also a slow-down.
11:26<Sacro>Ammler: damn right, or you'd lose your drin
11:26<Sacro>+k
11:26<planetmaker>Ammler: for the simple reason that two same-turn curves then can be within the train's length
11:27<Turnskin>My slow-downs are at least 5 tiles in lenght and 3 in width. Every loop :(
11:27<@Belugas>[11:19] <Yexo> feel free to play a 'realistic' game, just don't try to get new features in *only* because they are realistic <--- I drink to that!
11:27<planetmaker>Turnskin: ?
11:27<planetmaker>cheers, Belugas :)
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11:28<Ammler>Mister Realistic in person :-)
11:28<@petern>curve speed limits need fixing
11:28<planetmaker>why, petern ?
11:28<@petern>they are broken currently
11:28<@petern>they're based on number of wagons, not curve length
11:29<planetmaker>hm, yes. True. But does that need fixing?
11:29<@Belugas>[11:27] <Turnskin> But as for me, it _looks_ unrealistic when a path turns at straight after/before a slope. So now my mind is trying to understand that TTD is not the real life :( <--- it's pretty easy :) Just remember it's a game
11:29<Ammler>petern: currently=since realistic_acceleration?
11:29<@petern>pretty much :p
11:29<@petern>though i think shorter vehicles were introduced later
11:30<planetmaker>hrhr
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11:30<@petern>planetmaker, main problem is the speed applies when the vehicle gets to the second bend...
11:31<planetmaker>petern: why is that the problem? If I'm speeding a tight s-curve, I may make the first, but will fail the 2nd :)
11:31<@petern>ok
11:31<@petern>that's another problem...
11:31<Turnskin_>Something like "New vision and experiences of train routing and station building in OTTD ver. 0.7".
11:31<planetmaker>same for U -type curves. I'll fail not in the first part, but later
11:32<Turnskin_>Well, good bye for now.
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11:32<planetmaker>cu
11:32<Ammler>well, he isn't the first playing that "style"
11:35<@Belugas>it's not a syle, it's an illusion
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11:54-!-mode/#openttd [+v petern] by ChanServ
11:54-!-mode/#openttd [+v Rubidium] by ChanServ
11:54-!-mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
11:54-!-mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
11:54-!-mode/#openttd [+v Darkvater] by ChanServ
11:55<Forked>must.. resist.. giving.. bastard answer.. to.. Leanden :\
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12:02<planetmaker>http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/graphics <--- these industry graphics just look great... :)
12:02<planetmaker>Forked: I was nice to him...
12:03<Forked>I was thinking about giving a link to the search function as well as link to the wiki article for say .. mingw
12:03-!-Maarten is now known as Guest12
12:03<Forked>but yes, you were pretty nice :)
12:03<planetmaker>but it's indeed quite thick to propose to just create the jack-of-all-trades OpenTTD compiler :)
12:04<Forked>"linux"? :p
12:04<Forked>eek, gotto run.
12:04<planetmaker>Well... not even the official compile farm could do what he proposes.
12:05<@Rubidium>it even doesn't apply patches ;)
12:05<planetmaker>that's what I meant :)
12:05<planetmaker>otoh: YOU apply constantly further patches ;)
12:05<planetmaker>but people tend to call that trunk ;)
12:05<@Rubidium>the CF only likes tars with source files
12:06<planetmaker>he :)
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12:08<@Belugas>yeah... Leanden is someone with special ideas
12:09<@Belugas>but the amount of work he want to se achieved just for someone to not work and enjoy is... insane
12:09<@Belugas>like
12:09<planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=775702#p775702 <--- oh yeah... special
12:10<@Belugas>yeah.. makes no sens at all...
12:11<planetmaker>I'm tempted to reply along the lines of "by actually transforming an idea into reality" ;)
12:11<Yexo>I even searched his posts, but I couldn't find him suggesting something along those lines
12:11<Yexo>I know it has been suggested before, but Zuu actually made it instead of only suggesting things
12:11<planetmaker>:) I think it was suggested before his suggestion-spree started.
12:12<planetmaker>yeah... which is pretty nice of him :)
12:12<planetmaker>(of Zuu)
12:14<@Belugas>pom te pom
12:14<@Belugas>let's make things clear :)
12:16<planetmaker>hehe, Belugas :)
12:16<planetmaker>nice one
12:17<planetmaker>or not so... which actually makes it nice again... hm... a paradox :P
12:17<planetmaker>not nice = nice --> nice = 0
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12:18<planetmaker>also wrong ;)
12:18<Yexo>#define not(a) a
12:18<Yexo>:)
12:21<@Belugas>i just hate when things are not clear. So, Leanden, no more riddles! expose your face!
12:21<@Belugas>and don't come to IRC...
12:21<@Rubidium>Belugas: /ignore?
12:22<@Belugas>no :) /kick
12:22-!-Combuster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
12:22<@Belugas>mmmh on the other hand, it would be less a user...
12:23<@Belugas>so.. yes, /ignore
12:23<planetmaker>0.75 per mille of the daily downloads ;)
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12:25<@petern>+q
12:26-!-HackaBit [~Hack@195-23-22-254.net.novis.pt] has quit []
12:26<@Belugas>mmh... powerfull command...
12:26<@petern>worked for that guy :p
12:27<@Belugas>yeah :D
12:28<@Belugas>wow... discovering Something I Can Never Have
12:28<@Belugas>never heard it before
12:28<@Belugas>cool :D
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12:30<@Belugas>+q
12:30<@Belugas>damned :(
12:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15848 /trunk/src/ (network/network_server.cpp settings_type.h table/settings.h): -Feature: Add autoclean_novehicles setting which will, when autoclean_companies is true, remove any company with no vehicles and no active client after autoclean_novehciles-months.
12:31<dihedral>petern, nice :-)
12:34-!-ToDeLoo [~ToDeLoo@195-23-22-254.net.novis.pt] has quit []
12:34<@Belugas>haaa... finally!
12:34<planetmaker>Belugas: ?
12:34<dihedral>the commit
12:34<@Belugas>no!
12:34<planetmaker>:)
12:34<@Belugas>[12:35] * Quits: ToDeLoo (~ToDeLoo@195-23-22-254.net.novis.pt)
12:34<dihedral>yes
12:35<@Belugas>[12:31] <@Belugas> +q
12:35<@Belugas>I HAVE THE SAME POWER!!!
12:35<dihedral>hehe
12:35<@petern>:D
12:35<planetmaker>:D
12:35<planetmaker>who is that person?
12:35<dihedral>ToDeLoo sounds like he needs to go to the toilet
12:35<dihedral>it was hackalittlebit
12:35<planetmaker>oh...
12:36<dihedral>perhaps now he's gonna sulkalittlebit
12:36<dihedral>^^
12:36<planetmaker>hm... was hackalittlebit annoying? Cannot remember him quite...?
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12:51<dihedral>Belugas, ping
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12:59<planetmaker>pong... pong........... pong......................................................
13:00<HackaLittleBit>they ran away :)
13:04<+glx>petern: IIRC there was a FS number about your latest commit
13:05<+glx>not exactly the same thing though
13:07<+glx>hmm it seems muxy never submit his patch on FS
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13:20<@petern>can't see one
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13:23<+glx>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=39971 but he never posted his patch
13:24<+glx>your version is safer for people with unstable connection :)
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13:33<Ammler>do you really need to check the vehicels, is there no other way to see, if someone is/was active
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13:36<@petern>hm
13:36<Ammler>if someone joins, builds and then leave for dinner, after dinner, his company is gone :-)
13:37<Ammler>well, he might be bankrott anway then...
13:38<dihedral>Ammler, and if the company is gone, he did not have any vehicles, and can start again
13:38<@petern>there's company::num_vehicles
13:38<@petern>but that's a vehicle for each engine type
13:38<@petern>err
13:38<@petern>s/vehicle/value/
13:38<Ammler>before I buy a vehicle, I build some tracks...
13:39<dihedral>petern, configurable minimum per vehicle type ^^
13:39<@petern>ahaha
13:39<@petern>no :)
13:39<@petern>Ammler, here's a tip
13:39<dihedral>you must have 100 trains :-D
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13:39<@petern>if you want to leave your empty company around while you go for dinner, play on servers which don't have it on
13:40<@petern>i'd rather have less unused companies clogging the player list stopping others playing
13:40<dihedral>same here
13:40<@petern>(okay, so that's less likely with with 15 companies)
13:41<dihedral>those companies are just not worth it
13:41<Ammler>can't you not just check the company value?
13:41<dihedral>no
13:41<dihedral>because some companies have tracks, etc and they leave and never come back
13:41<dihedral>that sucks
13:41<@petern>what good would that do?
13:41<Yexo>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=775737#p775737 <- He really is angry because "I came up with the this idea"
13:41<dihedral>+ you can configure the number of months Ammler
13:41<@petern>you'd build your tracks, your company value would stay at 1...
13:41<@petern>then you'd go for lunch
13:41<dihedral>like with every auto clean
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13:41<@petern>and still be cleaned up
13:43<@petern>gah
13:43<@petern>stupid forum search engine strips words less than 3 characters
13:43<@petern>like
13:43<@petern>AI
13:43<@petern>orudge, fix it
13:44<@petern>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=446589#p446589
13:45*petern posts it
13:46*dihedral commented also ^^
13:46<@Belugas>pong
13:46<@Belugas>pong
13:46<@Belugas>pong popopopopong
13:47<@Belugas>#one of these days i'll cut you in little pieces
13:48<Yexo>you guys were a bit faster with finding a relevant thread ;p
13:52<@Belugas>i wanted to add that i came up with the idea of going to the toilet early in the morning and that my son came up witht he same, but since i was the first to hit the bowl the idea was mine but... i guess it would have been a tiny bit out of place...
13:58<Ammler>well, you could still credit your ...ähm... with the son name :P
14:00<Ammler>shit made by Belugas, invented by Littlegas
14:05<Ammler>I miss the credits window on the start menu...
14:06<Ammler>or called About
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14:23<@petern>lol
14:23<@petern>he only went and bumped that old topic :o
14:25<@petern>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=775757#p775757
14:25<@petern>hehhehheh
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14:35<@Belugas>wooohoo!! Sirkoz, you're really the best!
14:35<@Belugas>when it comes to being a clown, that is...
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14:39<Forked>got to love the internet :)
14:40<Forked>meh. playing openttd with a mousepad on a laptop sucks :\
14:40<Forked>also the ingame sounds made the dog start barking
14:40<@petern>a mousepad, eh?
14:40<Forked>you know those pads that are under the space bar on laptops..
14:40<Forked>touch sensitive to move the cursor around
14:40<Forked>I might be using the wrong word(s) :)
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14:43<thingwath>touchpads?
14:44<Forked>perhaps!
14:45<@petern>yeah
14:45<@petern>mousepads are things you put a mouse on
14:46*orudge remembers mouse pads
14:46<@orudge>I don't think I have any any more
14:47<Forked>oh right
14:47<Forked>sorry :)
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14:50<@petern>play me old king cole
14:52-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
14:52<@petern># la la la la la, la la la la la laaaaaaa
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14:59<@petern># she's a lady, she's got time
15:00<totalwormage># ohh, but in the morning, in the morning haze!
15:00<totalwormage>hm, not haze, light, otherwise it wouldn't rime with night
15:01<@petern>rime, eh?
15:02<totalwormage>do'h
15:02<totalwormage>ahh get this keyboard away from me, it's typo evening
15:04<@petern># they are invincible
15:04<@petern># they seem immune to all our herbicidal battering
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15:17<Wolf01>hello
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15:21<@petern># you can't last long
15:33<Ammler>isn't downloading everything disabled?
15:33<Ammler>(on bananas)
15:34<Yexo>no, there is just no "download-all" button
15:34<@Rubidium>Yexo: lies!
15:35<Yexo>hmm?
15:35<@Rubidium>there is one when listing missing newgrfs Which is in my opinion the only valid situation for a select all button
15:35<Ammler>ah ok, you can still and acutally need to select all with console...
15:36<@petern>you need to?
15:36<Ammler>not possible to select special grfs, well, I am not. :-)
15:37<@petern>it is
15:37<Ammler>yeah, I know, that is why I said, I am not able...
15:38<@petern>content select nnn
15:38<Ammler>nnn is quite hard for me to determine
15:38<@petern>why?
15:39<@petern>it's not exactly hidden
15:39<Ammler>it need the id of a list you get with "content state", I guess
15:39<@petern>well yes
15:39<Ammler>well, I already said, I am not able to....
15:39<Ammler>:-)
15:39<Ammler>it might work for others...
15:40<@petern>great
15:40<@petern>works for me
15:40<Ammler>that is fine :-D
15:40<@Rubidium>Ammler: have you READ the help?
15:41<Ammler>did you change something?
15:41<@Rubidium>no
15:41<@Rubidium>works for me too though
15:42<Ammler>how do you select a specific grf?
15:42<Ammler>"content select <grfid>" ?
15:44-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@161-18-80-78.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #openttd
15:44<Ammler>maybe It works now, I had some other issues too, with firewall and so...
15:45<@petern>the content state list gives you nnn
15:45<Ammler>dunno, if I tested it with the id after I fixed the fw
15:45<@Rubidium>Ammler: you don't
15:47<Ammler>it also seems like if you define a min/max version, it doesn't respect hg versions or other special things...
15:47<Ammler>but that might be more the case for the uploader to think about...
15:47<@Rubidium>Ammler: the maximum/minimum version is the version that OpenTTD gives to NewGRFs
15:48<@petern>hg versions are non-numerical and non-sequential...
15:49<Ammler>maybe it is possible to ignore max/min if openttd version isn't a numerical one?
15:50<Ammler>hmm, how works the version check in the newgrfs for those?
15:50<@Rubidium>EXACTLY the same
15:50<@Rubidium>(as described in the NewGRF specs)
15:51<@Belugas>no more no less. not a byte more. not a byte less. AND NO BUTS
15:51*petern ponders a bout of the lamb
15:52<@Rubidium>petern: good idea
15:52<@Belugas>with mint sauce
15:52<@Belugas>on broadway
15:53<@Rubidium>broadway stinks
15:54<Ammler>Rubidium: so DJNekkid set max version for 2cc?
15:54<Ammler>as the hxxx should be higher anyway...
15:55<@Rubidium>it sets a minimal version
15:55<Ammler>but then it should be listed on a hg client?
15:56<Ammler>at least grfs don't complain about the rev
15:56<@Rubidium>not if it can't detect the svn revision
15:56<@petern># AND THE LAMB
15:56<@petern># lies down
15:56<@petern># on broadway
15:56<@petern>i had lamb pie for dinner
15:56<@petern>but it was crap
15:57<@petern>it was tiny bit of lamb with chunks of manky veg pie
15:57<Ammler>I see, nvm ;-)
15:58<@petern>oh my
15:58<@Rubidium>revision detection works fine for trunk hg
15:58<@petern>playing on dihedral's server... with no newgrf
15:58<@petern>quiant
15:58<@petern>quaint too
16:00<@Rubidium>the 2cc set even shows up with a trunk hg build
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16:01<Yexo>I guess it won't show up with a trunk build from before 0.7 was split off
16:01<@petern>something solid forming in the air
16:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15849 /trunk/src/ (fontcache.cpp fontcache.h gfx.cpp gfx_func.h): -Codechange: provide easy access to the real height of the used fonts
16:02<@petern>i'm hovering like a fly
16:02<@petern>hm
16:02<@Belugas>And the wall of death is lowered in TIme Square
16:02<@Belugas>Noone seems to care
16:02<@Belugas>they carry on as if nothing was there
16:02<@Belugas>the dust settles on my skin
16:03<@Belugas>making a crust I cannot move in
16:03<@Belugas>...
16:03<@Belugas>waiting for the windshield on the freeway
16:03<@Belugas>ABSOLUTELY LOVELY!!!
16:03<@petern>yes
16:04<@petern># he knows
16:04<@petern># in a scent you can bottle all you made
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16:08<Ammler>Yexo: seems so
16:08<Ammler>is it possible to see, which version the uploaded set?
16:09<Ammler>uploader*
16:09<Yexo>only for the uploader
16:09<Ammler>then we need to blame DJNekkid :-(
16:09<Yexo>no, you don't
16:10<Ammler>it looks like he set a min version, doesn't?
16:10<Yexo>const uint32 _openttd_newgrf_version = 0 << 28 | 8 << 24 | 0 << 20 | 0 << 19 | (@@REVISION@@ & ((1 << 19) - 1));
16:11<Yexo>that way the version is determined, with an hg build @@revision@@ is 0, which makes the version lower than every 0.7 nighty
16:11<Yexo>since the 0.7 split, the 7<<24 was changed in 8<<24, making the revision higher than every 0.7 nighlty, regardless of the actuall revision (so even with hg the version is higher)
16:11<Ammler>he?
16:12<@Rubidium>Yexo: with hg the svn revision is detected, as long as it's an official hg repos
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16:12<Yexo>in that case it should work with hg builds from before the 0.7 split
16:12<Ammler>Rubidium: it works also with is2 branch now
16:12<Ammler>with tip
16:13<@Rubidium>Yexo: if the top commit isn't an offical trunk commit it's likely to not work
16:13<Ammler>openttd is fine
16:13<Ammler>it is just djnekkid set useless min version :-)
16:14<Ammler>as his grf would work with all bananas versions
16:15<Ammler>I am wondering what he set... :-)
16:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15850 /trunk/src/ (build_vehicle_gui.cpp subsidy_gui.cpp): -Codechange: replace some magic constants with the less magic line height constant
16:16<@petern>the grand parade of lifeless packaging
16:16<@petern>just need a fuse
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16:20<@petern># aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
16:20<@petern># you say i must be crazy
16:20<@petern># cos i don't care who i hit (who i hit)
16:21-!-prakti [~myself@port-213-148-152-8.static.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:21<@petern># i'm iiii'm not full of shit
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16:26<artart78>hello
16:27<artart78>I tried to compile svn but I have an error: 'Error: No available language packs (invalid versions?)'
16:27<Yexo>try rm -r bin/lang and recompile
16:28<artart78>same thing
16:28<artart78>(and directory lang is re-created but nothing is in it)
16:29<artart78>tried to cp objs/lang/*.lng bin/lang/ but same thing
16:29<Yexo>can you try to remove objs/lang/*
16:30<Yexo>for some reasons the language files are not recompiled when they should
16:30<artart78>make: *** /home/artart78/jeux/svn/openttd/objs/lang: Aucun fichier ou dossier de ce type. Arrêt. (No file or directory of this type. Stopping.)
16:31<artart78>it recreate it when I do configure
16:31<Yexo>ok
16:32<artart78>then it creates files in bin/lang/
16:32<artart78>but.. same error
16:32<Ammler>make mrproper
16:33<Yexo>can you try to recompile everything? make mrproper && ./cofigure && make
16:34<artart78>ok
16:34<artart78>compiling..
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16:35<@petern>got to get in to get out
16:36<@Belugas>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=42521 <--- was he sarcastic? or honestly thanking us?
16:36<Yexo>I can't tell
16:37<Ammler>Sulai once tried to make something similar
16:38<artart78>yay!! it works
16:38<artart78>thanks
16:38<artart78>so, now, let's try to apply the 32bpp patch..
16:39<artart78>..and it doesn't work :/
16:39<@petern>you don't need a patch for 32bpp...
16:40<artart78>but why is there a patch for it ??
16:40<Yexo>there is a patch for extra zoom levels, which only work with 32bpp graphics
16:41<artart78>how to use 32bpp ?
16:42<@Belugas>once upon a time, some devs with a furious envy to do something useful, got toguether and created 32bp for trunk
16:42<@Belugas>and then... it ended up in trunk
16:42<@Belugas>Amen
16:42<Ammler>LEGO
16:42<Prof_Frink>MECCANO
16:42<@petern>hehe
16:42<@petern>sad fact is
16:42<@petern>there is no complete set of 32bpp graphics
16:43<Yexo>artart78: read http://wiki.openttd.org/Playing_with_32bpp_graphics
16:43<@petern>(nobody created 32bpp graphics, because the game didn't support it)
16:43<@petern>(then suddenly the game did support it, and still nobody created (much) 32bpp graphics)
16:43<Ammler>still possible there is a 32bpp replacment before 8bpp replacment ;-)
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16:43<Yexo>http://wiki.openttd.org/List_of_downloadable_32bpp_tars <- downloadable 32bpp graphics
16:44<artart78>petern: there's a lot of 32bpp graphics but some doesn't work, and they are in a lot of files..
16:44<@Belugas>but now, they know under which copyright (gpl or else) it will be published :D
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16:48<artart78>going to bed
16:49<Ammler>Rubidium: if you won't support for grfid in the bananas download, maybe it is possible to add the grfid the list at least, so you could grep the list for?
16:50<@Belugas>grep a gip
16:50<@Belugas>hem...
16:50<@Belugas>get a grip
16:50<@Belugas>hem
16:50<@Belugas>shut up /me
16:50<Ammler>ah, you know, what I mean :P
16:51<@Belugas>no. nor what use it would be
16:51<@Belugas>but that's just me
16:51<Ammler>or a filter like you have with the gui would rock
16:52<fonsinchen>Ouch ... when the number of stations in a connected component approaches about 100 the time needed to calculate all the paths for the cargo distribution problem can be measured in hours.
16:52<fonsinchen>Well, it seems I have to find another algorithm.
16:53<Ammler>don't you like, how the cargodest branch did it?
16:54<fonsinchen>no
16:54<fonsinchen>it only uses one path
16:55<@petern>ah, pathfinding
16:55<fonsinchen>if you want to use many paths in parallel you have to think about it as a multi commodity flow problem
16:55<fonsinchen>I actually tried to make it a circulation problem instead, but that one had very strange properties
16:56<fonsinchen>People wouldn't have liked how cargo would have behaved there ...
16:56<fonsinchen>Yet there are many heuristics for MCF. You don't have to solve it exactly
16:57<fonsinchen>So, I'll find a way
16:57<@Belugas>make it unreal
16:58<@Belugas>always anice approach
16:58<@Belugas>random destination!
16:58<fonsinchen>random destinations are nice, but unpredictable destinations aren't
16:58<fonsinchen>unpredictable meaning: you add one edge and everyone goes somewhere else
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17:10<@Belugas>ho boy
17:10<@Belugas>Dear, i'
17:10<@Belugas>ll
17:10<@Belugas>be a bit late :(
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17:18<HackaLittleBit>Good evening everybody :)
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17:22<@Belugas>tick tock
17:22<@Belugas>time to go
17:22<@Belugas>night night
17:22<@petern>ta ra
17:22<@Belugas>i'm on the go
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17:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r15851 /trunk/src/fontcache.cpp: -Fix (r15849): compile failure when there's no freetype...
17:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15852 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Codechange: New widgets for the AI windows.
17:36<@petern>ah
17:36*petern reverts his old dynamic scrollbar patch
17:36<@Rubidium>dynamic scrollbar patch?
17:37<@petern>yar
17:37<@petern>one that removed the bjarni-isms
17:37<@petern>such as a lot of duplication
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17:38<Wolf01>'night
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17:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15853 /trunk/src/waypoint_gui.cpp: -Codechange: New widgets for the waypoint gui.
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18:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r15854 /trunk/src/tree_gui.cpp: -Codechange: New widgets for build tree window.
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18:28<@petern>it was old, as in pre-c++ ;)
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18:33<@petern>cool
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18:33<@petern>so some stuff already works with bigger fonts :D
18:34<@petern>when do the old widget lists get removed? heh
18:37<@petern>also
18:37<@petern>are all the widget updates done, just waiting to be split/etc
18:37<@petern>or are they being done as and when?
18:38<Yexo>a lot of windows still need conversion to the new widget system
18:38<Yexo>when all all done the old widget system can be removed
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18:41<@petern>hmm, is there an implied vertical container?
18:41*planetmaker ponders to give my tt-forums ignore list a 2nd entry...
18:41<planetmaker>this leander guy is just a pain...
18:42<Yexo>petern: there is NWID_VERTICAL, but WWT_PANEL also defaults to vertical
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18:49<kalasmannen>heya, i was just woundering, is there a way to get the gm-files from the DOS-version of openttd
18:49<kalasmannen>?
18:50<Yexo>no
18:50<kalasmannen>i have a recently bought re-relase of the game, but it seems that it contains the original dos-files
18:50<kalasmannen>argh, thats sad
18:50<Yexo>openttd doesn't support the music files from the dos version
18:50<kalasmannen>ah, i see
18:51<kalasmannen>thanks
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18:52<Ammler>kalasmannen: google could convert them to windows ;-)
18:54<planetmaker>lol
18:54<planetmaker>mother google runs so many nice services... ;)
19:00<@petern>hmm, done it wrong :/
19:00<@petern>w->type == WWT_LAST failed :o
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19:03<kalasmannen>Ammler: hah, i wish :P
19:03<kalasmannen>very wierd though, that a re-relase has the old dos-files
19:04<kalasmannen>and yet, a windows executable
19:04<Yexo>petern: WWT_PANEL needs an EndContainer(), that's the mistake I made a lot
19:04<kalasmannen>i may have misunderstood it, but when you read the install-instructions, i have the files that are labeled as the dos-versions files
19:04<kalasmannen>and no gm
19:07<@petern>uh huh
19:07<@petern>but it does :o
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19:35<@petern>i might give up :o
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19:38<Yexo>which window were you trying to update?
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19:51<@petern>newgrf :)
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19:56<@petern>what does this->index refer to at the point of assert?
19:59<Yexo>the widget index
20:00<Yexo>all widgets from the old widget array need a replacement in the new system, and this->index points to the first widget that has no replacement
20:02<@petern>index is 2 :o
20:03<Yexo>do you have any new widget with idx = SNGRFS_BACKGROUND1 ?
20:04<@petern>yes, a panel
20:04<@petern>hmm
20:04<Yexo>can you upload your current diff?
20:05<@petern>actually
20:05<@petern>i have it twice. odd :p
20:06<@petern>okay, doesn't assert now
20:06<@petern>doesn't work either, but never mind
20:06<Yexo>make sure to start with -d misc=1 and you'll have a diff of the old / new widgets in the debug output
20:27<@petern>hmm, works now
20:27<@petern>although some flags are different
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20:36<+glx>hmm maybe I should convert some windows too :)
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22:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r15855 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: complete the company finances window widget enum and remove unneeded magic in large window definition
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22:37<HackaLittleBit>DaleStan: are you available
22:38<DaleStan>No.
22:38<HackaLittleBit>Ok good night everybody
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22:39<DaleStan>Hint to lurkers: If he'd asked a real question, I would have been availabe.
22:39<DaleStan>available*
22:41<+glx>he used the better way to not get an answer
22:44<Sacro>DaleStan: you might have got a date out of it
22:54<eMjay88>what a difference a little question mark makes :P
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23:02<DaleStan>eMjay88: BZZZT. Wrong. Guess again?
23:03<eMjay88>was "are you available" not a real question for reasons other than the missing question mark?
23:04<DaleStan>"Don't ask to ask, just ask!"
23:04<Sacro>DaleStan: any good with hashtables?
23:04<DaleStan>Now see. That's a real question.
23:05<eMjay88>Fair enough :)
23:05<Sacro>and a serious one at that
23:05<Sacro>I'm worried about thread safety :(
23:06<DaleStan>With a real question you have a chance of getting information that will be useful more than a minute after the answer is given.
23:06<DaleStan>I know a little about thread safety. I'm not aware of any special implications for hash tables.
23:08<Sacro>Well I can have many read + one right
23:08<Sacro>or many write and nobody reads
23:08<Sacro>but I want many write and many read, which seems quite a complex trick
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23:09<DaleStan>Many read + one write doesn't work the way most people think it does.
23:10<DaleStan>If the writer gets interrupted halfway through a write and then a reader comes along to read the inconsistent state, things will almost certainly break.
23:10<Sacro>Yes, I understand that
23:10<Sacro>currently I lock the hashset on both reads and writes
23:10<Sacro>I'm not sure if I need to lock on a read but I feel I should
23:11<Sacro>I'm not sure if I can check for a lock as opposed to obtain one
23:11<Sacro>but then if a write was to come along... it could jump in ahead of the read
23:11<eMjay88>this is a fairly classic concurrent access afaict
23:12<eMjay88>concurrent access issue*
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23:12<Sacro>eMjay88: Yeah,
23:13<Sacro>though perhaps I'm overthinking my coursework :(
23:13<Sacro>not sure he's even brought up this concept
23:13<Sacro>not sure he even taught multi threaded servers
23:13<DaleStan>I'm not sure about that either. I think a system that provides the minimum necessary safety could be written in x86 assembly, but I don't know if that's exposed to higher level languages.
23:14<Sacro>Yeah
23:14<eMjay88>you could use a "fair" semaphore type object to get threads to wait while the hashtable is in use?
23:14<DaleStan>Oh bother. I'm trying to make double-checked locking work.
23:14<Sacro>well C# has some things
23:14<Sacro>eMjay88: i'm sure that's what lock(hashtable) does
23:14<Sacro>but you can still get deadlock
23:15<Sacro>i think
23:15<Sacro>i can't see how my app could deadlock
23:16<eMjay88>something tries to write an item using the hashtable itself?
23:16<Sacro>Yeah but there's no circular route I don't think
23:17<Sacro>Items read, then write then leave
23:17<Sacro>so I can't see that locking
23:17<eMjay88>when do they open their locks?
23:17<Sacro>after the hashset access
23:17<eMjay88>lock -> read -> write -> unlock?
23:18<eMjay88>or read -> lock -> write -> unlock?
23:18<Sacro>no
23:18<Sacro>lock -> read -> unlock -> lock -> write -> unlock
23:19<DaleStan>So, the solution I had in mind could send your threads into tight loops.
23:20<Sacro>oh?
23:22<Sacro>meh, i'll research more tommorow
23:22<DaleStan>Double-checked locking, but with the "fix" that if the lock was improperly acquired, it'd release everything and start over. Interlacing the threads badly, and none can properly acquire a lock.
23:22<Sacro>Ahh
23:22<DaleStan>Interlace the threads badly*
23:23<eMjay88>Sacro: are all locks equal? or can you get a read-lock?
23:23<Sacro>I think they are all equal
23:23<Sacro>I think this is over-cautious
23:23<Sacro>which is better I guess
23:23<Sacro>I don't know if anyone else who has done multi-threading has considered this
23:24<eMjay88>read-locks can simplify things...
23:25<Sacro>I don't think there are
23:25<Sacro>short of writing it myself
23:26<Sacro>:o
23:26<Sacro>ReaderWriterLock
23:26<eMjay88>:S I thought you were
23:26<Sacro>if I can use inbuilt lock() then I will :p
23:26<eMjay88>what language and all are you using? you mentioned C# before...
23:27<Sacro>Yeah
23:27<Sacro>C#
23:28<Sacro>Right, I'll look at that tommorwo
23:29<Sacro>Yeah, ReaderWriterLock
23:29<Sacro>it predates HashTable, hence why the documentation doesn't mention it *facepalm*
23:30<eMjay88>is there a ReaderLock? (ie readonly lock?)
23:31<Sacro>Yep
23:31<Sacro>that does both
23:31<Sacro>http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.threading.readerwriterlock.aspx
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23:52<eMjay88>my keyboad stopped working
23:52<eMjay88>it was really quite annoying
---Logclosed Thu Mar 26 00:00:46 2009