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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-04-16

---Logopened Thu Apr 16 00:00:05 2009
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05:00<@petern:#openttd>TrueBrain, it continues :D
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05:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>petern: no, it is no longer ranting; now it became flaming
05:38<TrueBrain:#openttd>in fact, normally people get warnings for such attitude on the forums ...
05:38<Noldo:#openttd>where?
05:38<dihedral:#openttd>on the forums
05:39<Noldo:#openttd>what was the topic?
05:47<Forked:#openttd>I can't find the flaming :\
05:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>people are nosy ...
05:48<Forked:#openttd>bored at work :p
05:48<dihedral:#openttd>TrueBrain, you want them to be, else you would not be talking about it all the time ^^
05:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>dihedral: no, I was talking to petern, which the word 'petern:' before me starting the talk did suggest :p
05:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>like that line was for you, not for Forked
05:49<dihedral:#openttd>yep, but you do know this is a public channel :-P
05:49<dihedral:#openttd>:-D
05:49<TrueBrain:#openttd>WHAT?!
05:49<dihedral:#openttd>i think so.....
05:49<Forked:#openttd>I could argue that if it was for petern only you could have used /msg instead of telling everybody what you're really only telling one person. :-) BUT! I'll try not to and instead actually do some work.
05:49<TrueBrain:#openttd>Forked: enjoy :p
05:50*dihedral:#openttd hugs TrueBrain
05:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>ieuw
05:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>not in public
05:50<Forked:#openttd>I failed.. still here :\
05:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>Forked: good choice .. work is boring :p
05:51<TrueBrain:#openttd>dihedral: ieuw
05:51<TrueBrain:#openttd>not in private
05:51<dihedral:#openttd>:-D
05:51<dihedral:#openttd>HAHA
05:51<Forked:#openttd>is he hugging you in private places?
05:51<Forked:#openttd>:\
05:51*DorpsGek:#openttd hug TrueBrain
05:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>:'(
05:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>I feel violated
05:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>dihedral: stop abusing DorpsGek
05:52<dihedral:#openttd>violated is the wrong word i think :-P
05:52<Forked:#openttd>quick, someone rickroll TrueBrain ..
05:54<jonty-comp:#openttd>._.
05:55<Xaroth:#openttd>yrrble
06:03-!-kingj is now known as KingJ
06:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>so, anyone made anything nice today?
06:04<SpComb:#openttd>ate ice cream outside
06:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>I did that yesterday :p
06:04<SpComb:#openttd>with the ice floating on the sea
06:04<Forked:#openttd>lunch in 25 minutes.. out on the roof where I work. We have ordered take-away :-)
06:05<TrueBrain:#openttd>haha :)
06:05<TrueBrain:#openttd>last time, we wanted to order pizza and get it delivered to us inside a DataCenter
06:05<TrueBrain:#openttd>:p
06:05<SpComb:#openttd>give them the rack address
06:06-!-Timmaexx [~chatzilla@port-92-192-24-130.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
06:07<Forked:#openttd>how stable does it sound if one use a practice grenade (so it's not loaded or anything) for opening beer bottles?
06:07<Forked:#openttd>I have these pictures.. and it occurs to me that we might look a bit insane
06:07<TrueBrain:#openttd>Forked: 'might'?
06:07<Forked:#openttd>it's not loaded..
06:08<dihedral:#openttd>TrueBrain, tcl coding :-D
06:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>but I doubt it is a matter of 'might' look insane .. I am sure it LOOKS insane :p
06:10<Forked:#openttd>so about that flaming, where!?!?1+ :p
06:11<@orudge:#openttd>Burger King
06:11<@orudge:#openttd>flame grilled burgers!
06:11<TrueBrain:#openttd>hmmmm
06:11<TrueBrain:#openttd>don't give me idea orudge!!
06:11<@orudge:#openttd>heh
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06:21<Xaroth:#openttd>TrueBrain: ordering a pizza to evoswitch?
06:21<Xaroth:#openttd>last time we were there somebody actually delivered a pizza there
06:21<TrueBrain:#openttd>Xaroth: that has to be fun! :)
06:21<TrueBrain:#openttd>but we decided to find some real food in Haarlem
06:22<Xaroth:#openttd>though i'm not sure whether that was for the reception people or for actual engineers
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06:57-!-Celestar [~Jadzia_Da@galadriel.td.mw.tum.de] has joined #openttd
06:57<Celestar:#openttd>hey peops
06:58*Celestar:#openttd needs help
06:59<MapperOG:#openttd>yo
06:59<Celestar:#openttd>yo :D
07:00<@Rubidium:#openttd>I thought you already finished your higher education ;)
07:01<MapperOG:#openttd>psychiatrie is fine?
07:01<@Rubidium:#openttd>and hello Celestar ;)
07:02<Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: how are you?
07:02<TrueBrain:#openttd>it is a ..... Celestar!
07:02*TrueBrain:#openttd starts running putting on his best cloths
07:02<TrueBrain:#openttd>oh, I need to take a shower
07:02<TrueBrain:#openttd>wait, quick, my hair!
07:03<TrueBrain:#openttd>hi Celestar ;)
07:03<Celestar:#openttd>hi TrueBrain
07:03<@Rubidium:#openttd>Celestar: annoyed by the terrible weather
07:03<Forked:#openttd>holy crap it's Celestar
07:03<Celestar:#openttd>(=
07:03<dihedral:#openttd>CELESTAR ;_)
07:03<dihedral:#openttd>how nice of you to visit :-)
07:03<TrueBrain:#openttd>as you can see, Celestar, you are missed :p
07:03<dihedral:#openttd>greatly ^^
07:03*Celestar:#openttd blushes
07:03<Forked:#openttd>with his backwards smileythingies
07:05<TrueBrain:#openttd>so with what you need help?
07:05<Celestar:#openttd>syncing cargodest against trunk
07:05<TrueBrain:#openttd>painful job :)
07:05*Celestar:#openttd is used to pain
07:05<Celestar:#openttd>:P
07:05<TrueBrain:#openttd>awwhhhh
07:06<Celestar:#openttd>my stomach hurts terribly at the moment
07:06<Celestar:#openttd>from laughing
07:06<TrueBrain:#openttd>stop hitting your stomach
07:06<Xaroth:#openttd>o_O
07:06<Celestar:#openttd>I had an ... encounter .. with ESA's IT department.
07:06<TrueBrain:#openttd>you walked into a satelite? :p
07:06<@Rubidium:#openttd>intra terrestrials ?
07:06<Celestar:#openttd>cuz a colleague of mine is just at one of their sites.
07:07<Celestar:#openttd>he couldn't log to our cluster (which he needs for computations), since the ESA firewall blocked outgoing ssh traffic
07:07<Celestar:#openttd>"for security reasons"
07:07<TrueBrain:#openttd>LOL
07:07<Celestar:#openttd>so was asked them what traffic was considered safe
07:07<Celestar:#openttd>(i.e. ports are open)
07:07<@Rubidium:#openttd>135, 137, 139?
07:07<TrueBrain:#openttd>23!
07:07<Celestar:#openttd>worse
07:07<Celestar:#openttd>23!
07:07<TrueBrain:#openttd>HA!
07:07<Celestar:#openttd>25!
07:08<Forked:#openttd>443?
07:08<Celestar:#openttd>80!
07:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>FAIL!
07:08<Celestar:#openttd>443 was ok
07:08<Forked:#openttd>sshd on 443 then .. always works :p
07:08<Celestar:#openttd>nah we put it on 23 :P
07:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>you can't ssh, but you can telnet! Much more secure!
07:08<Forked:#openttd>let me just type my password here then aaand it's gone!
07:08*Celestar:#openttd made a mental note note to fly to space with ESA
07:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>tnx for the warnings Celestar :)
07:09<TrueBrain:#openttd>I hope they don't do the firewall of the IIS communication :p
07:09<Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: dunno about 135-139 since none of the university routes route netBIOS traffic ;)
07:09<Celestar:#openttd>but ok. of course telnet is safe and ssh isn't
07:10<Celestar:#openttd>that's why Windows still ships without an ssh client but with a telnet client :P
07:10<TrueBrain:#openttd>"Windows Vista is the most secure OS out there"
07:10<@Rubidium:#openttd>well, with telnet there can be no man-in-the-middle-attack
07:11<TrueBrain:#openttd>(a quote I read yesterday, but some guy up in the MS hierarcy)
07:11<Celestar:#openttd>TrueBrain: considering how difficult it is to connect Vista to any kind of network, that may actually be true.
07:11<Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: how so? cuz no one uses it anymore?
07:11<TrueBrain:#openttd>the reasoning after it was a bit flawed, but okay .. with narrow vision, you can claim a lot of things :)
07:11<TrueBrain:#openttd>no encryption, so no use of man-in-middle-attack :p
07:12<Celestar:#openttd>"most people have a mental horizon that is a circle of radius zero. That's what they call their 'point of view'"
07:12<TrueBrain:#openttd>Celestar: anyway, you join at a nice time to ask for a sync of cargodest :)
07:13<Celestar:#openttd>how so? ;)
07:13<@Rubidium:#openttd>Celestar: telnet is a broadcast protocol; it broadcasts the information to everyone, so instead of a man in the middle there's everyone in the middle
07:13<Celestar:#openttd>lol
07:13<SpComb:#openttd>and does ESA use hubs for its internal network as well?
07:13<Celestar:#openttd>no, because carrier pigeons are point-to-point
07:13<Forked:#openttd>they call them hubbles
07:14<@Rubidium:#openttd>SpComb: only satelites and radio waves
07:15<Celestar:#openttd>oh another story. I was on a page of a _very_ large germany company. For online purchases, they had some page to enter your credit card. Only parts of the page were https, the rest http (ok for the images). However, I discovered that the site wasn't protected against any kind of cross-site scripting. Being I good boy, I e-mailed the webmaster about the security hole. Answer: "What is cross-site scripting?"
07:16<Noldo:#openttd>:)
07:16<TrueBrain:#openttd>Celestar: last time I emailed someone for that, I got flaimed for trying to hack into their site and I don't know what more ..
07:16<Celestar:#openttd>rofl
07:17<Celestar:#openttd>it's nice to be back here. too many idiots out there in the real world
07:17<MapperOG:#openttd>:D
07:17<MapperOG:#openttd>you don't know me, do you? :p
07:17<Celestar:#openttd>no.
07:18<blathijs:#openttd>ey Celestar! :-)
07:18<Celestar:#openttd>heya blathijs
07:19<Celestar:#openttd>I had some guy recently who told me he's been coding C++ since the 70s :P
07:19<@Rubidium:#openttd>nice ;)
07:19<@Rubidium:#openttd>then I've been coding OpenTTD since the 80s
07:19<SpComb:#openttd>or he meant the C/C++ language
07:20<TrueBrain:#openttd>Celestar: timebubbles! I tell you!
07:20*Celestar:#openttd wants a timebubble
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07:20*TrueBrain:#openttd gives Celestar a hug instead
07:20<Celestar:#openttd>better :D
07:23<@Rubidium:#openttd>Celestar: you should move to Harajuku, Tokyo when you want lots of free hugs
07:23<Celestar:#openttd>Harawho?
07:24<Forked:#openttd>also japan are pretty good at high speed internet (at least inside japan..)
07:26<@Rubidium:#openttd>Celestar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obNdA9WXwzU
07:26*jonty-comp:#openttd sneezes
07:26<@Rubidium:#openttd>http://www.flickr.com/photos/fumi/907873023/
07:27<Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: er .. is this work safe?
07:27<@Rubidium:#openttd>if hugging is safe at your work then yes
07:27<@Rubidium:#openttd>well, and excentric people need to be safe too
07:31<@Rubidium:#openttd>why did google make their 'street view' early in the morning when Harajuku bridge is boring?
07:31<Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: is it ok for the cargodest branch to set the saveload revision to 1000 for the tim being?
07:32<@petern:#openttd>ARGH
07:32<Celestar:#openttd>and set it to current++ if there is a merge in 2025?
07:32<Celestar:#openttd>hey petern ;)
07:32<@petern:#openttd>how the fuck do you turn off firefox trying to 'correct' entries in text inputs?
07:32<TrueBrain:#openttd>how did you get that on in the first place?
07:32<@Rubidium:#openttd>not quite sure whether 1000 is possible right now (SL_MAX_VERSION being 255 etc)
07:32<Celestar:#openttd>250 then :P
07:32<@petern:#openttd>well
07:33<@petern:#openttd>i have it remember what i used previously
07:33<@petern:#openttd>because generally that's useful
07:33<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: why is that 255? :p
07:33<@petern:#openttd>but then i want to put in something slightly different to a previous entry, and it changes it to that previous entry
07:33<TrueBrain:#openttd>petern: ah, you mean that feature .. that is fucking annoying :p Moving to the left or right sometimes help .. or clicking somewhere else ..
07:34<@petern:#openttd>sometimes, sometimes not
07:36<planetmaker:#openttd>u... I sense a long lost presence in this channel :)
07:36<planetmaker:#openttd>Hello celestar :)
07:37<@Rubidium:#openttd>TrueBrain: ask DV?
07:38<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: when removing 'minor' version, I thought we had set that value to 65535 too .. oh well .. still possible ;)
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07:45<Xaroth:#openttd>petern: you can always hover over the entry and then press delete..it removes the entry from it's database.
07:46<jonty-comp:#openttd>ooh, my cygwin has hg installed
07:46<jonty-comp:#openttd>I didn't know that
07:46<TrueBrain:#openttd>Xaroth: undocumented feature? :p
07:46-!-KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.23.217.2] has joined #openttd
07:46*jonty-comp:#openttd checks out the infrastructure sharing thing
07:51-!-Yexo [~Yexo@32-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd
07:51<Yexo:#openttd>hello
07:51<TrueBrain:#openttd>Yexo!!!
07:51<TrueBrain:#openttd>where have you been? :)
07:52<Xaroth:#openttd>ugh, sf takes ages to approve a project
07:52<Yexo:#openttd>few days at my parents house, busy with uni work the last 2 days
07:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>Xaroth: why try?
07:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>Yexo: important things :)
07:53<Xaroth:#openttd>tb: so i have a 'public' svn for AutoTTD.
07:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>Xaroth: SF sucks :(
07:53<Xaroth:#openttd>TB: yes.
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07:54*Rubidium:#openttd wonders how many commits you can do a day on SF
07:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>morning glx
07:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: seen the speed of their subversion, I say ... 4 commits a day :p
07:55<Xaroth:#openttd>ugh
07:55<jonty-comp:#openttd>use googlecode! :D
07:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>even worse ....
07:55<jonty-comp:#openttd>:p
07:56<Xaroth:#openttd>i'll use my own home server for development then.. use sf for public updates
07:56<Xaroth:#openttd>not like it'll have a lot of data anyhow
07:56<+glx:#openttd>hello
07:57<@Rubidium:#openttd>Xaroth: uploading OpenTTD's binary at 20 kBps is done faster than setting up a release on SF
07:57<@Rubidium:#openttd>doing the SF release takes the most time of an OpenTTD release
07:57<@Rubidium:#openttd>and most of that is spend waiting on pages to refresh
07:57<Xaroth:#openttd>Rubidium: yeh, so i noticed
07:57<@Rubidium:#openttd>very slowly
07:57<+glx:#openttd>Xaroth: use hg and start hg serve when you want to share your stuff :)
07:58*TrueBrain:#openttd still thinks we should set up a 3rdparty section on openttd.org :p
07:58<Xaroth:#openttd>glx: hg?
07:58<+glx:#openttd>mercurial
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07:59<@Rubidium:#openttd>Googlecode: 8.3 Google reserves the right (but shall have no obligation) to pre-screen, review, flag, filter, modify, refuse or remove any or all Content from any Service <- looks pretty... uhm... "we own you" to me
07:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>it does
07:59<Xaroth:#openttd>google is known to cover their asses in 20 meters of concrete
08:00<dihedral:#openttd>put up some nazi stuff, and you'll know why they reserve that right ^^
08:00<Xaroth:#openttd>just like their appserver project
08:00<TrueBrain:#openttd>which should keep you away from Google with 20 miles distance :p
08:00<+glx:#openttd>and if they like it they "steal" it ?
08:00<dihedral:#openttd>glx: not if it's under gpl :-P
08:00<jonty-comp:#openttd>that wouldn't be too great for PR though
08:01<+glx:#openttd>dihedral: of course it's allowed by gpl
08:01<@Rubidium:#openttd>dihedral: but what if you agree to license them to do "anything" with it?
08:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>jonty-comp: they just pay you to shut up :p
08:01<@Rubidium:#openttd>11.1 By submitting, posting or displaying the content you give Google a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, royalty-free, and non-exclusive licence to reproduce, adapt, modify, translate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute any Content which you submit, post or display on or through, the Services <- dihedral like so
08:02<jonty-comp:#openttd>hehe
08:02<TrueBrain:#openttd>an other "we own you" :p
08:02<dihedral:#openttd>Rubidium, YUCK :-D
08:02<jonty-comp:#openttd>they own us anyway :D
08:02<+glx:#openttd>IIRC it's the same for gmail
08:02<TrueBrain:#openttd>but I believe there were 3 of them :p
08:02*jonty-comp:#openttd has used GMail since it was released :(
08:03-!-maristo [~maristo@host217-114-156-151.pppoe.mark-itt.net] has joined #openttd
08:03<TrueBrain:#openttd>glx: worse: even with Chrome
08:03<Xaroth:#openttd>glx: Mercurial sounds too much effort for such a small thing.
08:03*jonty-comp:#openttd has used Chrome since it was released :(
08:03<TrueBrain:#openttd>Xaroth: it is much easier in setup and usage, but also in publishing
08:03<TrueBrain:#openttd>subversion is .. a bit out-dated ;) :p
08:03<TrueBrain:#openttd>jonty-comp: you should reconsider who you trust :p
08:04<jonty-comp:#openttd>meh
08:04<@Rubidium:#openttd>TrueBrain, something like: 19.2 You understand and agree that if you use the Services after the date on which the Universal Terms or Additional Terms have changed, Google will treat your use as acceptance of the updated Universal Terms or Additional Terms.
08:04<Xaroth:#openttd>easier?!?
08:04<Xaroth:#openttd>it took me 2 minutes to set up apache2 with svn
08:04<jonty-comp:#openttd>I just wish someone would fix windows so it doesn't splutter and die when faced with a few thousand .svn files
08:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>Xaroth: hg init
08:04<Xaroth:#openttd>looking at how to use mercurial with svn took me longer than that :/
08:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>hg add *
08:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>hg commit
08:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>hg serve
08:04<TrueBrain:#openttd>easier it can't be :)
08:04<@Rubidium:#openttd>i.e. whenever Google really wants to own you, they just change the license
08:04<+glx:#openttd>no need to set up a web server for hg
08:05<Gekz:#openttd>Rubidium: then you say fuck that
08:05<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: which, lucky for us Dutchies, is invalid in any ToS
08:05<Gekz:#openttd>and recompile Chrome
08:05<+glx:#openttd>it provides it's own
08:05<Gekz:#openttd>without the license
08:05<dihedral:#openttd>TrueBrain, apt-get install apache2 libapache2-mod-svn subversion :-P
08:05<@Rubidium:#openttd>and that ofcourse goes to your gmail account, so when they tell it has changed via an email you already agreed to it
08:05<+glx:#openttd>TrueBrain: you forgot hg init ;)
08:05<Xaroth:#openttd>glx: he didn't
08:05<TrueBrain:#openttd>glx: no, you didn't read all I said :p
08:05<Xaroth:#openttd>anywho
08:06<+glx:#openttd>oh right
08:06<dihedral:#openttd>^^
08:06<Gekz:#openttd>Rubidium: DOOMSAYER
08:06<TrueBrain:#openttd>Xaroth: either way, the reason why Mercurial wins from Subversion, is that it is much more lightweigted .. and .. decentral :)
08:06<jonty-comp:#openttd>msvc is annoyingly slow
08:06*Xaroth:#openttd shrugs
08:06<@Rubidium:#openttd>jonty-comp: cross compiling OSX is more annoyingly slow
08:06<+glx:#openttd>jonty-comp: don't build release version
08:06<LUADuck:#openttd>Does 0.7.0 have any known bugs?
08:06<jonty-comp:#openttd>perhaps I should try out Mercurial, I didn't bother before because I only just got the hang of subversion :o
08:06<+glx:#openttd>yes
08:06<TrueBrain:#openttd>LUADuck: without doubt: yes
08:06<LUADuck:#openttd>lol
08:07<Xaroth:#openttd>There are ALWAYS bugs
08:07*jonty-comp:#openttd points at known-bugs.txt
08:07<TrueBrain:#openttd>well, Xaroth, not always
08:07<Xaroth:#openttd>the only perfect application is Hello World.
08:07<TrueBrain:#openttd>I once wrote a patch which removed ALL bugs from OpenTTD
08:07<LUADuck:#openttd>We've got a few clients with disconnects due to "wrong company-id in DOCOMMAND"
08:07<LUADuck:#openttd>any traces?
08:07<Xaroth:#openttd>TrueBrain: rm -rf / ?
08:07<Gekz:#openttd>Xaroth: it could be better optimised for size
08:07<TrueBrain:#openttd>but .. it end up doing nothing at all :p
08:07<@Rubidium:#openttd>jonty-comp: that's lame
08:07<TrueBrain:#openttd>Xaroth: kind of ;)
08:07<+glx:#openttd>LUADuck: probably cheaters
08:07<LUADuck:#openttd>Xaroth: Bash has rm -rf / protection nowadays
08:07<LUADuck:#openttd>Not cheaters, trusted clients
08:07<Gekz:#openttd>thats shit
08:07<@Rubidium:#openttd>people ought not to read that, just like they ought not to read the readme
08:07<+glx:#openttd>or not clean 0.7.0
08:07<Xaroth:#openttd>Gekz: not a bug tho :)
08:08<@petern:#openttd>there's a bug that happens if you start/load a game on a server while players are connected
08:08<Gekz:#openttd>Xaroth: it could be a void init
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08:08<Xaroth:#openttd>Gekz: yes, but it's still not a bug :)
08:08<LUADuck:#openttd>All is fine after a map load here
08:08<LUADuck:#openttd>(with clients)
08:08<Xaroth:#openttd>nothing is not working as designed.
08:08<Xaroth:#openttd>as such, hello world is bug-free :)
08:08<LUADuck:#openttd>Xaroth: What? :V
08:08<Xaroth:#openttd>LUADuck: different conversation.
08:09<Gekz:#openttd>Xaroth: is a bug
08:09<Gekz:#openttd>results in a warning
08:09<TrueBrain:#openttd>Xaroth: I once had a buggy Hello world application
08:09<TrueBrain:#openttd>Java :(
08:09<Gekz:#openttd>haha
08:09<Gekz:#openttd>java
08:09<jonty-comp:#openttd>java :(
08:09<+glx:#openttd>Xaroth: I can add bugs in hello world
08:09*jonty-comp:#openttd has an intense dislike for java
08:09<Xaroth:#openttd>TrueBrain: hah!
08:09<@Rubidium:#openttd>what are "trusted clients"?
08:09<TrueBrain:#openttd>jonty-comp: I join you in that group :)
08:10*Rubidium:#openttd rather has Java...
08:10<jonty-comp:#openttd>agh, stupid msvc web browser
08:10<@Rubidium:#openttd>... than *.NET
08:10*Xaroth:#openttd rather has C# than Java.
08:10<jonty-comp:#openttd>well, quite
08:10<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: haha, one evil doesn't country out an other evil :)
08:11<TrueBrain:#openttd>country = counter
08:11*jonty-comp:#openttd rather has .NET than Java anyday, but it is stil lesser of two evils
08:11<Xaroth:#openttd>yep
08:11<Xaroth:#openttd>right
08:11<+glx:#openttd>.NET is nice for windows only development
08:11<Xaroth:#openttd>glx: I use .net on unix.
08:11<TrueBrain:#openttd>glx: I dislike you need to install a N MiB size thingy before you can run such ap
08:11<+glx:#openttd>Xaroth: try WPF in mono ;)
08:11<Xaroth:#openttd>ew wpf
08:12<Xaroth:#openttd>WPF.. WINDOWS p..something foundation
08:12<Xaroth:#openttd>not MPF :)
08:12<Gekz:#openttd>Windows Forms
08:12<Xaroth:#openttd>anyhow
08:12<Xaroth:#openttd>in the time that sourceforge has not yet accepted my project
08:12<Xaroth:#openttd>i had 2 cups of tea
08:12<Gekz:#openttd>:o
08:12<TrueBrain:#openttd>Xaroth: it can take up to 24 hours
08:13<Xaroth:#openttd>a chat with my colleagues.... and installed viewsvn on my home pc.
08:13<TrueBrain:#openttd>that are a lot of cups of tea :p
08:13<Xaroth:#openttd>oh, and spent an hour not on work *whistles*
08:13<jonty-comp:#openttd>or one very large cup of tea
08:13<Xaroth:#openttd>and even updated my dyndns, hrr hrr
08:16<Xaroth:#openttd>http://xaroth.is-a-geek.net/viewsvn/
08:16<Xaroth:#openttd>... i really need to sort out my coding
08:16<TrueBrain:#openttd>ieuw, ugly svn viewer
08:16<Xaroth:#openttd>especially when i code late at night O_O
08:16*Rubidium:#openttd wonders whether suo belongs in a repository
08:16<Celestar:#openttd>sigh
08:16<Celestar:#openttd>not easy :S
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08:17<Xaroth:#openttd>Rubidium: I use that repo to move data from home to work
08:17<Zr40:#openttd>Rubidium: it does not.
08:17<Xaroth:#openttd>it'll even have .exe/.pdb/.dll
08:17<Gekz:#openttd>.pdb
08:17<Gekz:#openttd>plucker
08:17<Gekz:#openttd>lolwhut
08:17<joachim:#openttd>hi
08:18<Xaroth:#openttd>I.. abuse my SVN for file-sharing etc :)
08:18<joachim:#openttd>does anyone know if there is a later version of aircraft queueing than r12231?
08:18<@Rubidium:#openttd>Xaroth: logging in at home as Administrator?
08:19<Yexo:#openttd>joachim: if you can't find it on the forum thread you're out of luck
08:19<joachim:#openttd>ok
08:19<Xaroth:#openttd>as a full access user, yes
08:19<Yexo:#openttd>only thing you can try is pming the author of that patch
08:19<planetmaker:#openttd>wth is "aircraft queuing"?
08:19<@Rubidium:#openttd>and your work has Dutch Windows?
08:19<Xaroth:#openttd>no
08:19<Xaroth:#openttd>laptop does :/
08:20<joachim:#openttd>planetmaker: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=15502
08:20-!-MapperOG [~michael@p57B2DFB9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:20<@Rubidium:#openttd>there where you're not admin ;)
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08:20<Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: where's the list of download stats? :P
08:20<Xaroth:#openttd>i'm an admin on all my machines
08:21<@Rubidium:#openttd>Celestar: make an educated guess where openttd.org/'s stats would be
08:21<Celestar:#openttd>wee
08:22<TrueBrain:#openttd>pee
08:22<Celestar:#openttd>but that'S not yet the download stats :P
08:22<TrueBrain:#openttd>www.openttd.org/en/ ... guess what follows ;)
08:22<Xaroth:#openttd>Rubidium: why do you ask?
08:23<Celestar:#openttd>huh huh
08:23<@Rubidium:#openttd>Xaroth: because there's lots of private data in some of those MSVC generated files
08:23<Xaroth:#openttd>yep
08:23<TrueBrain:#openttd>I am already hacking into his computer as we speak
08:23<TrueBrain:#openttd>nice porn collection Xaroth
08:23<Xaroth:#openttd>TrueBrain: i doubt that
08:24<TrueBrain:#openttd>lol
08:24<Xaroth:#openttd>Rubidium: it becomes quite useless when you open and commit those files from so many different machines
08:24<LUADuck:#openttd>Xaroth: What the porn
08:24<Xaroth:#openttd>TrueBrain: remote hard drives, which aren't connected to my pc atm ;)
08:25<@Rubidium:#openttd>Mister Steven N. it will actually become more interesting; knowing you are sometimes Administrator, well... let us try to find a remote exploit
08:25*Xaroth:#openttd shrugs
08:26<@Rubidium:#openttd>it'll be fairly easy to set up a server that you would scan while being admin
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08:28<@Rubidium:#openttd>this._startDate = DateTime.MinValue.AddDays(data._startDate - 366);
08:28<Xaroth:#openttd>yes
08:28<@Rubidium:#openttd>I love those kinds of lines without comments ;)
08:28<@orudge:#openttd>34.01GB of IPv4 bandwidth since 15th for tt-forums, 806.15MB of IPv6, fun stuff
08:29<Xaroth:#openttd>Rubidium: I don't comment when I'm coding at night
08:29<LUADuck:#openttd>orudge: That's a lot of porn
08:30<Zr40:#openttd>hot aircraft on train action
08:30<@Rubidium:#openttd>that's almost as much as OpenTTD
08:31<@Rubidium:#openttd>sounds like your bandwidth usage has increased quite considerably lately though
08:32<Celestar:#openttd>crappy comp
08:32<Celestar:#openttd>compiles slow
08:33<@Rubidium:#openttd>in the "donate to the forums" 2009 edition you're talking about about 6 GB of bandwidth a day
08:33<Celestar:#openttd>hey orudge :D
08:33<@Rubidium:#openttd>6 GB a day over 2008 and 4 GB a day over 2007
08:35<Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: we're doing 10GB of traffic per day now? O_o
08:35<@Rubidium:#openttd>though I must say OpenTTD has seen almost a doubling in bandwidth since January
08:35<@Rubidium:#openttd>Celestar: easily
08:35<Celestar:#openttd>nice
08:35<Celestar:#openttd>:P
08:36<@Rubidium:#openttd>last month ~20 GB a day, this month over 30 GB a day
08:38<Celestar:#openttd>so the forums actually do much less traffic than the rest? O_o
08:38<@Rubidium:#openttd>yup
08:38<Celestar:#openttd>.. interesting
08:38<planetmaker:#openttd>he... Rubidium how much is the online content service?
08:38<Celestar:#openttd>\o planetmaker
08:38<@Rubidium:#openttd>planetmaker: no idea
08:38<planetmaker:#openttd>hi Celestar :)
08:39<planetmaker:#openttd>how're you? Are you already Mr Dr Celestar? Do I have say you to you :D ?
08:39<@Rubidium:#openttd>planetmaker: averaging 18000 downloads or so a day this month
08:39<Celestar:#openttd>planetmaker: not yet. working on it.
08:39<Celestar:#openttd>motivation is at the low point
08:39<planetmaker:#openttd>he, quite a lot, Rubidium :)
08:40*Celestar:#openttd resumes merging cargodest :P
08:40<planetmaker:#openttd>Celestar, oh, yeah... :S
08:40<@Rubidium:#openttd>2000-2500 binary downloads a day
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08:40<Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: what's the 18000 figure then?
08:40<Celestar:#openttd>planetmaker: how's it on your end?
08:40<Celestar:#openttd>planetmaker: I spend most of my day procrastinating.
08:40<@Rubidium:#openttd>content thingy downloads
08:40<planetmaker:#openttd>he... sounds like my days, Celestar ... :S
08:41<Celestar:#openttd>planetmaker: need a laugh? www.structuredprocrastination.com
08:41<Zr40:#openttd>cargodest, sounds iteresting. What's it about?
08:41<+glx:#openttd>Celestar resumes merging cargodest :P <-- good luck :)
08:41<Celestar:#openttd>glx: I'm doing it step by step (in blocks of about 50 commits)
08:41<planetmaker:#openttd>I'm still fiddeling with parts of my data, though. But try to get a bit writing done concurrently
08:41<Celestar:#openttd>bout 60 pages and counting
08:42<+glx:#openttd>Celestar: I tried, but failed with orders rewrite
08:42<planetmaker:#openttd>Celestar, you should talk to Aali. He has a version working quite recently.
08:42<Celestar:#openttd>then there's the search for a job ....
08:42<Celestar:#openttd>planetmaker: a merge version?
08:42<planetmaker:#openttd>He might even have it as hg...
08:42<planetmaker:#openttd>a more recent version than the official hg repository
08:42<planetmaker:#openttd>much more recent, I dare say
08:43<Celestar:#openttd>nice
08:43<planetmaker:#openttd>I think it might be posted as svn patch in the forums - but I guess that's not what you want :)
08:43<Celestar:#openttd>meh creen seems messed up
08:44<Celestar:#openttd>TrueBrain:
08:44<TrueBrain:#openttd>Celestar:
08:44<Celestar:#openttd>TrueBrain: where does the hg push go to? ssh+svn:// ?
08:44<TrueBrain:#openttd>hg over svn
08:44<TrueBrain:#openttd>cool! :p
08:44<Celestar:#openttd>er wait
08:44<Celestar:#openttd> :P
08:44<TrueBrain:#openttd>ssh://celestar@secure.openttd.org//var/repos/hg/developers/celestar/cargodest.hg I think
08:44<TrueBrain:#openttd>might be wrong :p
08:44<Yexo:#openttd>that's correct :)
08:45<Celestar:#openttd>it bshes :P
08:45<Celestar:#openttd>pushes:P
08:45<TrueBrain:#openttd>I love my memory :)
08:45<Celestar:#openttd>glx: what rev was the order rewrite?
08:45<Celestar:#openttd>14803?
08:45<fonsinchen:#openttd>Cargod*i*st is now available via git: http://fickzoo.com/fonsinchen/openttd.git
08:45<fonsinchen:#openttd>see forum for details
08:47<Celestar:#openttd>Aali: p i n g
08:48<@Rubidium:#openttd>14803 looks like the order rewrite one
08:48<Celestar:#openttd>I'm just on it
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08:49<fonsinchen:#openttd>Celestar, I'd happily cooperate with you on the cargo destination/distribution project. Yet I think your approach is limited in some ways: missing load balancing and bad demand function especially.
08:49<@Rubidium:#openttd>fonsinchen: exactly the things where Celestar seems to be having a few plans for already but didn't implement yet
08:50<@Rubidium:#openttd>http://wiki.openttd.org/Cargodest#Items_for_version_2
08:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: doesn't mean they can't work together ;)
08:50<Celestar:#openttd>fonsinchen: he. those two are currently just QnD solutions to have a working system :P
08:51<@Rubidium:#openttd>true, but saying something is limited when not having all information is wrong ;)
08:51<fonsinchen:#openttd>You can't do that as "version 2". The demand function has to be done before actually distributing cargo.
08:51<@Rubidium:#openttd>there have been some people saying things like that lately on the forum
08:51<Celestar:#openttd>?
08:51<planetmaker:#openttd>"coming short" might be better wording than :P
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08:51<Celestar:#openttd>keep me up to date
08:51<fonsinchen:#openttd>I have written an article in the Wiki
08:52<fonsinchen:#openttd>and I have a working implementation. It only needs a GUI
08:52<Celestar:#openttd>performance data?
08:52<Celestar:#openttd>;)
08:53<Celestar:#openttd>my goal was to write a system that has a _very low_ performance impact on the game
08:53<fonsinchen:#openttd>And with load balancing the distribution problem becomes much more difficult than without - ie shortest path versus multi-commodity flow
08:53<fonsinchen:#openttd>so I decided to implement the load balancing from the beginning on instead of rewriting everything afterwards
08:53<@Rubidium:#openttd>why isn't there a web view for the git repository?
08:54<fonsinchen:#openttd>Because I don't know how to do it
08:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: because he published the git, as http://git.openttd.org does for OpenTTD
08:54<fonsinchen:#openttd>You could tell me
08:54<Celestar:#openttd>fonsinchen: how do you do the routing?
08:54<TrueBrain:#openttd>fonsinchen: setting up a nice web view for git is hard .. mercurial is much easier for that task :)
08:54<fonsinchen:#openttd>I calculate everything on the link graph assembled from statistics collected when vehicles arrive
08:55<blathijs:#openttd>TrueBrain: Just slap on gitweb and your done?
08:55<fonsinchen:#openttd>Then I solve a multi-commodity flow problem on the link graph
08:55<blathijs:#openttd>TrueBrain: Though I admit the hg approach is even better
08:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>blathijs: needs cgi/perl
08:55<blathijs:#openttd>TrueBrain: Good point :-)
08:55<fonsinchen:#openttd>and map the flows back into stations
08:55<@orudge:#openttd>Rubidium: I think the values I quoted in the "donate to the forums" spiel was awstats-logged HTTP transfer only, rather than overall server bandwidth usage
08:55<fonsinchen:#openttd>then I assign destinations according to the most underprovided flows
08:56<@orudge:#openttd>since I didn't have consistent logs going back to 2007 or whenever for server bandwidth, due to server changes and datacentre changes and other such things
08:56<fonsinchen:#openttd>and mind that the linkgraph calculations take place in their own threads, so I have a lot of time there
08:57<Celestar:#openttd>fonsinchen: will that system run on somelow low-power hardware?
08:57<fonsinchen:#openttd>Yes
08:57<fonsinchen:#openttd>for small games
08:57<Celestar:#openttd>i.e. not a full-fledged PC
08:57<fonsinchen:#openttd>but large games won't run on small machines anyway
08:57<Celestar:#openttd>(read: an althon 3500+ is not low-power hardware) :P
08:57<fonsinchen:#openttd>There is still potential for optimization, if problems occur ...
08:57<jonty-comp:#openttd>I have an athlon 3500+! :D
08:57<fonsinchen:#openttd>I just don't have a small machine to test on
08:58<@Rubidium:#openttd>dosbox ;)
08:58<Celestar:#openttd>well, take a Centrino notebook and lock the CPU to the lower possible frequency
08:58<Celestar:#openttd>(600Mhz here)
08:58<Celestar:#openttd>that's what I did
08:58<fonsinchen:#openttd>dosbox sounds like a good idea
08:58<TrueBrain:#openttd>install ESX(i) on a box and limit the CPU to 600 MHz :p
08:58<fonsinchen:#openttd>It runs fine on my 800Mhz Ibook
08:59<fonsinchen:#openttd>but thats not really small
08:59<Celestar:#openttd>where in your code does the main stuff happen? ;)
08:59<Celestar:#openttd>what file I mean
08:59<@Rubidium:#openttd>pthread.h ;)
08:59<fonsinchen:#openttd>linkgraph.*, demands.*, mcf.*, flowmapper.*
09:00<Celestar:#openttd>somehow the link you gave me doesn'T have those files?
09:00<fonsinchen:#openttd>and I rewrote the vehicle loading system.
09:00<fonsinchen:#openttd>you have to check out cd-gui
09:00<fonsinchen:#openttd> git pull http://fickzoo.com/fonsinchen/openttd.git cd-gui
09:00<fonsinchen:#openttd>there are hierarchical branches
09:01<fonsinchen:#openttd>master->capacities->components->demands->mcf->flowmapping-core->flowmapping-vehload->cd-gui
09:01<fonsinchen:#openttd>each one implements a certain milestone
09:01<fonsinchen:#openttd>on top of the previous
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09:02<Celestar:#openttd>merging the order rewrite is a pita
09:02<fonsinchen:#openttd>Celestar, yours or mine?
09:03<Celestar:#openttd>neither
09:03<Celestar:#openttd>the trunk one
09:03<+glx:#openttd>Celestar: yeah cargodest is highly integrated in orders
09:03<Yexo:#openttd>fonsinchen: your new source files are missing from source.list
09:03<Celestar:#openttd>I don'T find the new source files :P
09:03<Celestar:#openttd>neither does 'find' :P
09:03<fonsinchen:#openttd>demand_settings.h
09:04<fonsinchen:#openttd>yes, that's a bug
09:04<Yexo:#openttd>Celestar: what did you execute?
09:04<Celestar:#openttd>glx: well, there's always the "remove whole order list" - "add whole order list" - approach
09:04<Celestar:#openttd>Yexo: what he said ;)
09:04<Yexo:#openttd>after git clone http://fickzoo.com/fonsinchen/openttd.git cargodist-dir, do git checkout origin/cd-gui
09:05<TrueBrain:#openttd>hmm .. I now realise the compile-farm can't process branches :p
09:05<TrueBrain:#openttd>ghehe
09:05<@petern:#openttd>heh
09:05<@petern:#openttd>i didn't think anyone used them ;p
09:05<TrueBrain:#openttd>nope
09:06<Celestar:#openttd>you've written your own graph tool fonsinchen ?
09:06<Yexo:#openttd>we just publish every branch in a seperate repo
09:06<TrueBrain:#openttd>anyway: WT3 .. database redesign :(
09:06<fonsinchen:#openttd>I only need Dijkstra and also a special modification of it
09:06<fonsinchen:#openttd>so I did
09:07<fonsinchen:#openttd>boost is too much overhead for that
09:07<TrueBrain:#openttd>boost always is ... :)
09:07<fonsinchen:#openttd>and my dijkstra is about 10 lines
09:07<fonsinchen:#openttd>really cute
09:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>cargod*e*st without boost .. now that would be nice ;) :p
09:08<Celestar:#openttd>what's your problem with boost, TrueBrain ?
09:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>Celestar: big ... an other dep ...
09:09<Celestar:#openttd>well, that's why openttd is not an operating system :P
09:09<TrueBrain:#openttd>even more as you only use a VERY small portion of it .. and a few distros don't allow you to install only that part :)
09:09<fonsinchen:#openttd>I actually tried with boost, but I realized the code didn't get shorter but longer
09:09<planetmaker:#openttd>Celestar, but if you could do without it would make the whole thing a lot lighter IMO
09:09<fonsinchen:#openttd>I had to write lots of conversion code and accessors
09:09<Celestar:#openttd>lighter in what way?
09:09<planetmaker:#openttd>from the overhead side :)
09:09<planetmaker:#openttd>on dependencies size
09:09<Celestar:#openttd>lighter in not using a tested and stable graph library and using my own? ;)
09:10<planetmaker:#openttd>He :)
09:10<TrueBrain:#openttd>Celestar: we even have our own std::map routines :p
09:10<TrueBrain:#openttd>OpenTTD is _that_ argogant ;)
09:10<Celestar:#openttd>yeah which I still consider ... unwise
09:10<TrueBrain:#openttd>(damn, my typing is off today :p)
09:10<planetmaker:#openttd>of course it doesn't matter that I never manage to setup boost properly on my laptop
09:11<fonsinchen:#openttd>Well, the conversion code and the accessors are just as error-prone as writing your own graph library. If I had to use multiple different graph algorithms, I'd use boost. But I don't.
09:12<Celestar:#openttd>well I'll test your system with about 1000 vehicles over the weekend probably :P
09:12<@Rubidium:#openttd>std::list/std::vector requires copying structs when inserting, which means pointless copying around of data causing noticable! slowdowns. As a result we implemented our own version that doesn't needlessly copy data around
09:12<Celestar:#openttd>fonsinchen: why don'T you just basically take the ideas from my GUI? ;)
09:13<fonsinchen:#openttd>I tried, but I didn't understand the code
09:13<Celestar:#openttd>I'm here ;)
09:13<fonsinchen:#openttd>Also I have a better idea for the station GUI
09:13<Celestar:#openttd>go ahead with questions
09:14<@Rubidium:#openttd>when are you going to fix the cargodest bugs? ;)
09:14<fonsinchen:#openttd>I'll make three "group" and four "sort" buttons. Then you can sort by number, source, nexthop, destination and group by source, nexthop, destination in any order you like
09:14<Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: lemme first try to SOMEHOW integrate the order changes
09:15<Celestar:#openttd>which is a pita from what ict
09:16<Celestar:#openttd>so .. how could we team up?
09:16<Celestar:#openttd>or converge the ideas :P
09:17<Celestar:#openttd>I don'T mind throwing out boost :P
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09:17*TrueBrain:#openttd makes a little dance
09:17<Celestar:#openttd>I just wanted the thing to work first
09:17<TrueBrain:#openttd>:p
09:18<fonsinchen:#openttd>Yes, I'd really like to team up.
09:18<@Rubidium:#openttd>Celestar: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=105579 <- for inspiration?
09:20<Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: I somehow knkow that :P
09:20<fonsinchen:#openttd>Celestar, which ideas from your project do you think are missing from mine?
09:21<Celestar:#openttd>I like the routing part of mine (i.e. that code that decides whether something is unloaded or not). I don't like the generation part (i.e. deciding which destination a cargopacket gets)
09:23<Celestar:#openttd>the routing part needs the balancing component
09:23<Celestar:#openttd>got some drafts for that, but I'll have alook at your code first.
09:23<Celestar:#openttd>the generation part is .. eh .. not done at all.
09:23<Celestar:#openttd>I just plugged in some randomizer to test stuff :P
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09:24<Celestar:#openttd>what your code misses? dunno :P
09:24<Celestar:#openttd>doxygen stuff :P
09:24<fonsinchen:#openttd>Your routing can not easily be merged into my code. I don't "route". I calculate a distribution. When a packet starts its journey it doesn't know where it will end up. At every station the flows are examined and then a new nexthop is decided on. If that nexthop is the station the vehicle will travel to next, the cargo stays on board. Otherwise it's unloaded or transfered
09:24<Celestar:#openttd>well the packet has a target, hasn'T it?
09:24<fonsinchen:#openttd>no
09:24<dihedral:#openttd>network.cpp:449 <- somethings wrong here (in my assumption)
09:24<@petern:#openttd>dihedral, please
09:24<Celestar:#openttd>er?
09:24<fonsinchen:#openttd>the packet has a source and a next hop. Each station has a flow mapping
09:24<dihedral:#openttd>petern, ?
09:25<@petern:#openttd>file a proper bug report, eh?
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09:25<fonsinchen:#openttd>when a packet from a certain source arrives at a station it is assigned to the most underprovided flow from that source going through the station.
09:25<Celestar:#openttd>then you don't have specific destinations?
09:25<Celestar:#openttd>how do you determine whether something is "underprovided" ?
09:26<@petern:#openttd>heh, what stops something bouncing back & forth? heh
09:26<fonsinchen:#openttd>The MCF solver calculates a plan for the flows through each station
09:26<fonsinchen:#openttd>With each packet traversing a station I update the actual flow
09:26<TrueBrain:#openttd>smells like Internet version 1 :)
09:26<TrueBrain:#openttd>hmm .. version 2, sorry :p
09:26<fonsinchen:#openttd>The difference between plan and actual flow is the over- or underprovisioning of the flow
09:27<Celestar:#openttd>so what decides how many people want to go from town A to town B ?
09:27<fonsinchen:#openttd>the demand function
09:27<fonsinchen:#openttd>it is run before calculating the mcf
09:27<Celestar:#openttd>mcf being?
09:27<fonsinchen:#openttd>the mcf tries to satisfy the demands as well as possible
09:27<fonsinchen:#openttd>multi-commodity flow problem
09:27<Celestar:#openttd>phew.
09:27<Celestar:#openttd>that seems like a 100% different approach ;)
09:28<fonsinchen:#openttd>yes, it is
09:28<Celestar:#openttd>Rubidium: I'll need help with the orderlist rewrite ;)
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09:28<Celestar:#openttd>we might want to pursue both and see what comes out :P
09:28<@petern:#openttd>competition is good
09:28<TrueBrain:#openttd>Celestar / fonsinchen: I think it would be nice if you 2 can somehow merge those 2 ideas and make one very nice idea out of it :)
09:28<@Rubidium:#openttd>why do people always need me?
09:28<Celestar:#openttd>I'm open for ideas. how do we merge the two ideas?
09:28<TrueBrain:#openttd>poor Rubidium
09:29<Gekz:#openttd>Rubidium: you are important to society. Bask.
09:29<TrueBrain:#openttd>Celestar: you calculate the route of a packet at creation, or?
09:29<Celestar:#openttd>TrueBrain: no. I determine its destination.
09:30<fonsinchen:#openttd>I intentionally didn't do it that way. You don't have the big picture at every packet creation
09:30<TrueBrain:#openttd>so if I read you two correctly, the 'flow per station' is not really depending on either idea; it is just one method to do it, right?
09:30<Yexo:#openttd>isn't it possible to use fonsinchens routing to fix the routing distribution of Celestars aproach?
09:31<TrueBrain:#openttd>fonsinchen: as if I understand your idea correctly, the demand is calculated before any routing is done, right?
09:31<fonsinchen:#openttd>yes
09:31<fonsinchen:#openttd>then distribution is calculated
09:31<TrueBrain:#openttd>so the destionation is kind of known, in that idea
09:31<fonsinchen:#openttd>then it is mapped into vehicle loading
09:31<fonsinchen:#openttd>kind of
09:32<fonsinchen:#openttd>but the mcf solver may find out that demands cannot be mapped
09:32<TrueBrain:#openttd>so, the 'flow per station' is independant and can be removed from yours, or added to Celestar's (just for my idea, not a suggestion :p)
09:32<fonsinchen:#openttd>then cargo is sent somewhere else
09:32<Celestar:#openttd>I'm not sure about that "somewhere else" idea.
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09:32<TrueBrain:#openttd>I somehow dislike that part of your idea, where I like that part in Celestar's idea :)
09:32<Celestar:#openttd>imagine you have a shitload of people wanting to go from A to B.
09:32<Celestar:#openttd>A to B is horribly underserved.
09:33<Celestar:#openttd>what happens with the people?
09:33<Forked:#openttd>they bitch at the manager?
09:33<fonsinchen:#openttd>Well, if the mcf finds out that it cannot send all packets to their destination, then the sum of flows originating from that station will be smaller than its supply
09:33<TrueBrain:#openttd>person at station A: I want to go to station B. at station C it turns out the mcfs tells it is not possible, and drops you off at station D .. I didn't want to go there!! :( :p
09:33<Yexo:#openttd>imo they should just wait at A untill you provide better service
09:34<Yexo:#openttd>unless there are lots of people waiting and they can go A->C->B (where the distance is not too big)
09:34<TrueBrain:#openttd>what is nice about fonsinchen's approach, is that you can map cargo over other routes to the same destination, a bit like internet works; if a link gets utilized too much, stuff gets routed over other legs where the utilization is lower
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09:35<Forked:#openttd>trains running BGP? :)
09:35<planetmaker:#openttd>TrueBrain, sounds like what happens in the real world :P
09:35<Yexo:#openttd>TrueBrain: yes, that's what I ment with trying to integrate fonsinchens routing with Celestars destinations
09:35<TrueBrain:#openttd>(increasing latency if there wouldn't be any utilization, but still speeding up the network)
09:35<TrueBrain:#openttd>Forked: BGP is at a higher level :)
09:35<Celestar:#openttd>fonsinchen: lost me ;)
09:35<Forked:#openttd>hm, doh
09:35<TrueBrain:#openttd>Yexo: glad I am not the only one who saw this integration option ;) :)
09:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>planetmaker: real world doesn't really work like that; people rather stand in traffic .... :p
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09:36<@Rubidium:#openttd>TrueBrain: stupid people
09:36<Celestar:#openttd>pax at A. wants to go to B. A->B underserved/overutilized. what happens to pax. waits or is "discarded" ?
09:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>Forked: well, in fact, it is a bit like BGP .. better to say: internet version 2 (we run on internet version 3)
09:36<planetmaker:#openttd>hehe :P
09:37<Yexo:#openttd>Celestar: pax goes A->C->B if possible, otherwise it waits (and eventually is discarded, just like now)
09:37<TrueBrain:#openttd>Yexo: I think he meant to ask hor fonsinchen's idea works ;)
09:37<TrueBrain:#openttd>hor = how
09:37<Yexo:#openttd>oh, well :p
09:37<Celestar:#openttd>so he *will* go to B, no matter what (unless he .. expires :P)
09:37<TrueBrain:#openttd>from what I read, it will go somewhere :p
09:37<Yexo:#openttd>if I understood that correctly, the pax will just go to C and dropped of there
09:38<TrueBrain:#openttd>which is a bit nasty ;) :p
09:38<Celestar:#openttd>I'm still trying to wrap my brains around this :P
09:38<Yexo:#openttd><Celestar> so he *will* go to B, no matter what (unless he .. expires :P) <- that's what I consider the best option, it's not what fonsinchens patch does
09:39<TrueBrain:#openttd>Forked: BGP = Border Gateway Protocol; it manages routes of the AS; inside such BGP there is also routing, which also works on utilization, which is a bit easier to understand ;)
09:39<Forked:#openttd>BGP always did my head in.. I have no trouble with OSPF
09:39<Celestar:#openttd>or let's ask the question differently. lots of people wanna go to P, and all routes into P are oversaturated. what happenes then?
09:39<TrueBrain:#openttd>Forked: well, OSPF is what I would suggest :)
09:40<Yexo:#openttd>Celestar: are you asking about fonsinchens patch, or what we think that should happen?
09:40<fonsinchen:#openttd>catching up ...
09:40<Celestar:#openttd>fonsinchen's patch
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09:42<fonsinchen:#openttd>If the MCF cannot meet all the demands, the flows will be lower than the supply, but the cargo will still be mapped onto the routes in the same ratios, so all routes will be overloaded.
09:42<fonsinchen:#openttd>... equally overloaded
09:42<Celestar:#openttd>so the cargo will stack up at some intermediate stations?
09:42<fonsinchen:#openttd>yes
09:42<fonsinchen:#openttd>or at the source
09:42<Celestar:#openttd>before the weakest link.
09:42<fonsinchen:#openttd>yes
09:43<fonsinchen:#openttd>for each path
09:43<Celestar:#openttd>sounds good
09:43<@petern:#openttd>TrueBrain, argh
09:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>petern: do tell? :)
09:43<@petern:#openttd>TrueBrain, BGP for company-company cargo transfer, OSPF for intracompany movements :P
09:43<TrueBrain:#openttd>petern: exactly :)
09:44<@petern:#openttd>let's integrate zebra
09:44<TrueBrain:#openttd>although I would not suggest to implement the protocol; rather the idea behind the protocol ;)
09:44<TrueBrain:#openttd>(which mostly is: utilization detection)
09:44<Forked:#openttd>and of course different areas inside the company, with area 0 as the core
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09:45<TrueBrain:#openttd>nice thing about that: in case of link failure (broken train), cargo immediatly gets rerouted over other routes :)
09:45<@petern:#openttd>hehe
09:46<fonsinchen:#openttd>link failure in cargodist means the link's capacity decreases to 0
09:46<fonsinchen:#openttd>then all cargo waiting for that link is sent "anywhere"
09:46<TrueBrain:#openttd>what do you mean by "anywhere"
09:46<TrueBrain:#openttd>still in a direction which might end up to be the destionation
09:46<fonsinchen:#openttd>which means traditional distribution
09:46<TrueBrain:#openttd>or can it float for ever?
09:46*Celestar:#openttd thinks of testing this over the weekend
09:46<fonsinchen:#openttd>like before cargo distribution
09:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>fonsinchen: so that part I like more about Celestar's idea ;)
09:47<fonsinchen:#openttd>and flows for that link are deleted
09:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>your routing mechanism, his destionation mechanism ;)
09:47<fonsinchen:#openttd>future cargo is then routed over a different link
09:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>petern: wouldn't we be able to make a pathfinder based on OSPF? :)
09:48<Celestar:#openttd>TrueBrain: yes. and we have that basically :P
09:48<Celestar:#openttd>OSPF is dijkstra, isn't it?
09:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>no, not really
09:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>well, kind of :p
09:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>what I meant is that of each leg in the network, you calculate the utilization
09:48<Celestar:#openttd>two more seconds and you say "yes"
09:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>and route trains based on that information
09:48<Celestar:#openttd>well. that's not how it works IRL :P
09:49<TrueBrain:#openttd>where each leg receives a score (instead of length :p)
09:49<Celestar:#openttd>*hides*
09:49<Sacro:#openttd>is this how you rate girls?
09:49<TrueBrain:#openttd>Celestar: I have absolutely no idea how trains are routed in real life :p
09:50<Celestar:#openttd>the route of every train is predetemined.
09:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>which fails for OpenTTD :)
09:50<@petern:#openttd>feel free to implement manual routing
09:50<@petern:#openttd>might save a little cpu ;)
09:50<Aali:#openttd>Celestar: pong
09:51<TrueBrain:#openttd>petern: omg ..... the idea alone :)
09:51<@petern:#openttd>i have no idea how the UI for that would work :p
09:51<TrueBrain:#openttd>how to you calculate utilization for a train .. hmm ... :)
09:51<Celestar:#openttd>TrueBrain: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Grafico_su_monitor_SSDC_-_B-P.jpg <= like so. typical train schedule
09:52<Celestar:#openttd>Aali: I heard you merged cargodest?
09:52<Aali:#openttd>I did
09:52<Celestar:#openttd>over the order list rewrite?
09:53<Aali:#openttd>up to r15708
09:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>lol @ Celestar :)
09:54<Celestar:#openttd>TrueBrain: that is true
09:54<Celestar:#openttd>every line is a train
09:55<Celestar:#openttd>the ones going in one direction is one track, the lines going in the other direction is the other track
09:55<Celestar:#openttd>horizontal coordinate is the time, vertical the position along the track
09:55<TrueBrain:#openttd>complex ;)
09:55<Celestar:#openttd>EVERYTHING (schedules, platform usage, etc) is derived from those graphs
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09:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>how much CPU goes into pathfinding, on a map of say 3000 vehicles?
09:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>if I remember correctly, most time goes into TrainController or what ever it was called, but I don't know for what reason anymore :)
10:00<@Rubidium:#openttd>for actually moving the vehicles
10:00<TrueBrain:#openttd>does that take the most time?!
10:00<@Rubidium:#openttd>(and updating their state)
10:00<Celestar:#openttd>TrueBrain: http://eisenbahn.wikia.com/wiki/Bild:Bildfahrplan_Remsbahn_NVZ.svg <= this one is a bit better
10:00<Celestar:#openttd>TrueBrain: you can see where the trains stop (vertical lines)
10:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>Celestar: I am so glad it is not relevant for OpenTTD :) Ghehe :)
10:01<Celestar:#openttd>TrueBrain: the slope shows the speed
10:01<@Rubidium:#openttd>I haven't done much profiling lately though
10:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: if you have the time, please run one for me :) I truly wonder :)
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10:02<TrueBrain:#openttd>he just leaves without saying goodbye? :(
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10:02<@Rubidium:#openttd>he pressed the wrong button ;)
10:02<@petern:#openttd>colours are what?
10:02<TrueBrain:#openttd>petern: my guess: priority :p
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10:03<Celestar:#openttd>petern: different train types
10:03<Celestar:#openttd>petern: normally you have labels for the lines etc, but they'Re removed in that image
10:04<@petern:#openttd>hmm, in this one vertical is time and horizontal is position
10:06<Celestar:#openttd>yeah.
10:06<Celestar:#openttd>both types exist
10:07<@petern:#openttd>let's add that to ottd :p
10:07<@petern:#openttd>(or not)
10:08<Celestar:#openttd>yeah :D
10:08<Celestar:#openttd>finally organized schedules :D
10:08<TrueBrain:#openttd>omg ... that would be VERY hard ... :p
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10:11<@Rubidium:#openttd>TrueBrain: http://paste.openttd.org/181956
10:11<Aylomen:#openttd>Is there any bridge-set that works with CS Railroad Tracks?
10:11<TrueBrain:#openttd>what does TrainLocoHandler do (which takes the most time)
10:11<@Rubidium:#openttd>don't know, check the code
10:12<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: it is in the gprof :p
10:12<TrueBrain:#openttd>the reason I ask :)
10:12<dihedral:#openttd>how is this called: core/tcp_game.cpp:NetworkRecvStatus NetworkClientSocket::CloseConnection()
10:12<dihedral:#openttd>or rather from where?
10:13<dihedral:#openttd>NetworkCloseClient() is called twice
10:13<dihedral:#openttd>once from network_server.cpp when the client connection dies, and then after that from core/tcp_game.cpp
10:13<dihedral:#openttd>and that results in the 'connection lost' message :-P
10:13*dihedral:#openttd hides
10:14<@Rubidium:#openttd>then NetworkCloseClient didn't close the connection...
10:15<TrueBrain:#openttd>tnx btw Rubidium :)
10:15<dihedral:#openttd>funny, because if it did not then NetworkCloseClient would result in the 'connection lost' message being printed twice
10:15<@Rubidium:#openttd>TrueBrain: loco handler seems to be doing pathfinding related stuff; pbs, signals and the like
10:15<TrueBrain:#openttd>yeah, k :)
10:15<@Rubidium:#openttd>traincontroller does the moving
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10:16<@Rubidium:#openttd>the hashtable thing's probably the pathfinder (all optimisations make the results someone unreliable)
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11:27<TrueBrain:#openttd>pff .. spend a good hour rewriting WT3 database to do what I want it to do :(
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11:28<MapperOG:#openttd>can someone give me a hint (how) it is possible to connect a habour and a trainstation?
11:28<TrueBrain:#openttd>put them next to eachother
11:28<TrueBrain:#openttd>make a bus line between them
11:29<Sacro:#openttd>hold down control when you build
11:30<TrueBrain:#openttd>Sacro: CHEAT! :p
11:30<Sacro:#openttd>:(
11:30<TrueBrain:#openttd>okay, not really :)
11:33<MapperOG:#openttd>what does ctrl do? (I'm on multiplayer, so I wouldn't like to cheat)
11:33<TrueBrain:#openttd>it is not a cheat :) I was joking
11:33<TrueBrain:#openttd>try it
11:33<TrueBrain:#openttd>it won't hurt you
11:34<MapperOG:#openttd>thing is that it seems I'd have to build a bus line, since they're on different levels
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11:34<SmatZ:#openttd>everyone cheats
11:34<SmatZ:#openttd>there's no other way to win :-p
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11:35<MapperOG:#openttd>ah, that's a n2k
11:37<MapperOG:#openttd>-- You Got FAILED!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- o0
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11:43<MapperOG:#openttd>hm.. so that's the reason why people protect their company with a password..
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11:48<frosch123:#openttd>pm from richk \o/
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11:53<TrueBrain:#openttd>frosch123: I hope it is less of a flame than the reply he posted :)
11:55<frosch123:#openttd>he, I guess he forgot himself what he implemented
11:56<@Rubidium:#openttd>(and when)
12:00<+glx:#openttd>(and how)
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12:28<MapperOG:#openttd>wha does the Participant tab in openttd multiplayer column say? (i.e. 3/16 - 7/8) ?
12:29<MapperOG:#openttd>current player/max player - current numb. company/max. company ?
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12:30<TrueBrain:#openttd>wow, did you come up with that on your own? :p :p
12:30<TrueBrain:#openttd>glad those numbers are so self explaining .. makes you wonder why you asked in the first place :)
12:31<MapperOG:#openttd>(I'm so lonely, I just wanted to start a conversation :P )
12:32<@petern:#openttd>heh
12:32<TrueBrain:#openttd>try #debian
12:32<TrueBrain:#openttd>(ghehe)
12:32<Sacro:#openttd>or #truebrain
12:33<TrueBrain:#openttd>TrueBrain is currently not available; please try again later
12:33<@petern:#openttd>argh
12:33<@petern:#openttd>yapp bug :(
12:34<Sacro:#openttd>hehe
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12:35<@petern:#openttd>no, i mean it :/
12:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>fix it! :p
12:37-!-Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db08ba4.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd
12:38<@petern:#openttd>:(
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12:40<MapperOG:#openttd>which industry needs copper?
12:40<TrueBrain:#openttd>wiki.openttd.org
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12:50<frosch123:#openttd>hehe, how did we manage to make sirkoz start coding newgrfs :o
12:54<DaleStan:#openttd>I dunno. But don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
12:56<Sacro:#openttd>DaleStan: you should if it came from the greeks
12:56<DaleStan:#openttd>*groan*
12:56<Sacro:#openttd>give it the once over
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12:57<@petern:#openttd>hmm
12:57<@petern:#openttd>problem with building roads everywhere is towns expand and prevent building tracks :/
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13:06<MapperOG:#openttd>petern: when you pay the city enough money, they won't mind?!
13:08<@petern:#openttd>erm
13:08<@petern:#openttd>well
13:08<@petern:#openttd>new build: £600,000
13:08<@petern:#openttd>first income: £25,000
13:08<@petern:#openttd>never mind :s
13:11<@petern:#openttd>oh, the train wasn't full, heh
13:11<@petern:#openttd>made a bit more on the return trip
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13:34<batti5:#openttd>Hi, is the OTTD Autoupdate sourcecode avalabile free?, im interesed to port it to a other os
13:36<CIA-9:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16067 /branches/NewGRF_ports/: [NewGRF_Ports] -Cleanup: remove as requested...
13:36<Xaroth:#openttd>ask Zuu
13:36<Xaroth:#openttd>but I'm working on something simmilar, batti5
13:36<Xaroth:#openttd>which -will- be open source
13:36<Xaroth:#openttd>and portable to other OS.... somewhat
13:36<Spoons:#openttd>Looks like delphi, probably easier to rewrite. :)
13:37<Xaroth:#openttd>it is delphi
13:37-!-Spoons is now known as FauxFaux
13:37<batti5:#openttd> <Xaroth> may i give a hand?
13:37<CIA-9:#openttd>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16068 /branches/cpp_gui/: [cpp_gui] -Cleanup: remove unmaintainted obsoleted C++ GUI branch
13:37<Xaroth:#openttd>can you do C#? :P
13:38<batti5:#openttd>not really
13:38<Xaroth:#openttd>oo, SF FINALLY approved the project..
13:38<FauxFaux:#openttd>c# is just java.
13:38<Xaroth:#openttd>... dangerous ground there FauxFaux :P
13:38<batti5:#openttd>il may try
13:38<Xaroth:#openttd>most Java people hate .net, and vice versa :P
13:39<@Rubidium:#openttd>FauxFaux: C# makes it easy to make unportable for that 'portable' platform
13:40<Xaroth:#openttd>as you can see
13:40<Xaroth:#openttd>Rubidium likes Java over .net .
13:40*FauxFaux:#openttd is Java too, mostly 'cos c# is just Java with some safety removed.
13:40<Xaroth:#openttd>safety?
13:41<@Rubidium:#openttd>Xaroth: it's not because I don't know C# ;)
13:41<TrueBrain:#openttd>FauxFaux: now that is plain bullshit
13:41<@Rubidium:#openttd>I think I've actually spent more time with C# than with Java
13:41<batti5:#openttd>do you know a site to learn more about java programing?
13:42<Xaroth:#openttd>heh
13:42<FauxFaux:#openttd>http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial
13:42<@Rubidium:#openttd>TrueBrain: do you actually know C#?
13:42<Xaroth:#openttd>batti5: i learned C# by looking at other people's code... then again, i learned almost all the programming languages i read/write that way
13:42<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: sadly enough :(
13:42<batti5:#openttd>thanks
13:43<@Rubidium:#openttd>so you know you can do pointer magic in C#?
13:44<Xaroth:#openttd>Rubidium: trying to do pointer magic in C# is asking for trouble tbqfh :P
13:44<@Rubidium:#openttd>what kind of barbeque?
13:44<Xaroth:#openttd>to be quite fookin honest.
13:44<Xaroth:#openttd>not bbq :/
13:47<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: I was refering to the comment: C# is just Java
13:48<@Rubidium:#openttd>oh, so not about C# is Java without safety ;)
13:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>indirectly, of course, but not what you suggested because of the word 'safety'
13:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>but if you really want 'safety', use Pascal
13:52<CIA-9:#openttd>OpenTTD: translators * r16069 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt korean.txt slovenian.txt):
13:52<CIA-9:#openttd>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-04-16 17:52:36
13:52<CIA-9:#openttd>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 12 fixed by tucalipe (12)
13:52<CIA-9:#openttd>OpenTTD: korean - 8 fixed by darkttd (8)
13:52<CIA-9:#openttd>OpenTTD: slovenian - 10 fixed by Necrolyte (10)
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14:23*frosch123:#openttd ponders replying to the pm, if it wouldn't just be so pointless...
14:25<TrueBrain:#openttd>frosch123: be the better person :) Like we all try to be :p
14:27<frosch123:#openttd>well, he interprets certain stuff into my review of his specs in a very wrong way. though that is not hard as the review does not consist of whole sentences :)
14:29<frosch123:#openttd>" - additional bytes to tilelayouts: ground type and shape (very silly)" <- like he relates the "very silly" to the feature of having irregular airports...
14:30<frosch123:#openttd>though otoh, maybe I should have reread that stuff before posting in public :)
14:30<@petern:#openttd>nah, he deliberately misreads i think :p
14:30<@petern:#openttd>he likes getting wound up
14:30<TrueBrain:#openttd> if self == None:
14:30<TrueBrain:#openttd>TypeError: coercing to Unicode: need string or buffer, NoneType found
14:31<TrueBrain:#openttd>excuse me Python?
14:41<TrueBrain:#openttd>grr .. mixing old object files with newer source files
14:41<TrueBrain:#openttd>bad Python, bad bad Python
14:41<@Rubidium:#openttd>broken pythondepend?
14:45-!-Exl [~myself@cp1224652-a.roemd1.lb.home.nl] has joined #openttd
14:48<TrueBrain:#openttd>glx / Yexo / planetmaker / any other translator: can it ever happen dat a 'case' of a translation has an other {G=} prefix than the main translation?
14:49<Yexo:#openttd>I have no idea
14:49<planetmaker:#openttd>prefix?
14:49<TrueBrain:#openttd>yes
14:49<TrueBrain:#openttd>a thing that comes before the rest
14:49<TrueBrain:#openttd>we call that a prefix :p
14:50<planetmaker:#openttd>yeah. And what's the main translation?
14:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>the one without the case
14:50<planetmaker:#openttd>I think I need an example of what you mean
14:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>I don't know if your language carries it
14:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>do you use gender and cases?
14:50<planetmaker:#openttd>yes
14:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>what language?
14:50<TrueBrain:#openttd>then I can give you a live example :)
14:50<planetmaker:#openttd>Well, I translate German :)
14:50<planetmaker:#openttd>But you can give me a Dutch one, too
14:51<planetmaker:#openttd>or French
14:51<TrueBrain:#openttd>language 19 ...
14:51<@Rubidium:#openttd>german doesn't use cases
14:51<@Rubidium:#openttd>neither do Dutch or French
14:51<planetmaker:#openttd>uhm... TrueBrain : do you mean that the gender changes?
14:52<Aylomen:#openttd>german uses cases
14:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>planetmaker: given my typo of 'an other' instead of 'another', yes
14:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>STR_4803_POWER_STATION
14:52<planetmaker:#openttd>Well, the gender of a word doesn't change
14:52<TrueBrain:#openttd>German indeed has no cases
14:52<@Rubidium:#openttd>Aylomen: no in OpenTTD's translation kind of sense, i.e. what TrueBrain means
14:52<planetmaker:#openttd>but the arcticle changes according to the case.
14:52<planetmaker:#openttd>but that's no gender change
14:53<planetmaker:#openttd>would be funny.
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14:55<frosch123:#openttd>TrueBrain: you mean like "girlfriend" and "boyfriend", which have a gender prefix?
14:56<TrueBrain:#openttd>frosch123: YES! That was EXACTLY what I meant :p
14:56<TrueBrain:#openttd>(can you feel the sarcasm? :))
14:56<TrueBrain:#openttd>if you would have said: {G=girl}friend and {G=boy}friend
14:56<TrueBrain:#openttd>I would have agree'd with less sarcasm btw ;)
14:57<frosch123:#openttd>I have no idea how that {G ..} stuff works :)
14:57<TrueBrain:#openttd>:) and I wish I didn't know :(
14:58<@petern:#openttd>heh
15:01<+glx:#openttd>TrueBrain: I never used cases ;)
15:02<TrueBrain:#openttd>how useless ... :p
15:07<+glx:#openttd>ask latin translator :)
15:08<+glx:#openttd>hmm ask SmatZ, he's a translator for a language using cases
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15:13<frosch123:#openttd>can you actually describe "{PERSON} is the {G boy girl weird}friend of {PERSON}"? E.g. tell the {G} to use the {G=} of the first string
15:14<+glx:#openttd>frosch123: wiki ;)
15:15<frosch123:#openttd>really, there is something useful there?
15:15<TrueBrain:#openttd>but I guess you are correct :)
15:15<TrueBrain:#openttd>as far as I understand it :)
15:15<+glx:#openttd>http://wiki.openttd.org/FormatOfLangfiles#Genders
15:16<TrueBrain:#openttd>but what I don't understand, why in the above case, this works: {G 0 boy girl weird}, and why we didn't pick a method like {G:0 boy girl weird}
15:16<TrueBrain:#openttd>easier to process in scripts :p
15:17<TrueBrain:#openttd>glx: a few plural forms are missing on the site ;) :p
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15:17<planetmaker:#openttd>glx: latin doesn't use prefix. It uses postfix
15:18<TrueBrain:#openttd>planetmaker: {G=}prefix is set by OpenTTD
15:18<TrueBrain:#openttd>has NOTHING to do with the language ...
15:18<+glx:#openttd>planetmaker: you don't understand :)
15:18<+glx:#openttd>{G=} defines the gender of a string
15:18<TrueBrain:#openttd>the 'prefix' in my question has to do that {G=?} comes in front of the translation
15:19<TrueBrain:#openttd>as you also have {G ? ?} tags in the middle of a string
15:19<planetmaker:#openttd>mäh... :(
15:19<planetmaker:#openttd>glx: yes, I understand that. I've seen that in the translation
15:21<+glx:#openttd>the question was if {G=} should be in str, str.case1, str.case2, ... or only in str
15:22<TrueBrain:#openttd>exactly :)
15:22<+glx:#openttd>STR_8102_RAILROAD_LOCOMOTIVE :{G=f}lokomotiva
15:22<+glx:#openttd>STR_8102_RAILROAD_LOCOMOTIVE.acc :{G=f}lokomotivu
15:22<+glx:#openttd>STR_8102_RAILROAD_LOCOMOTIVE.dat :
15:23<+glx:#openttd>in czech
15:23<pavel1269:#openttd>:-)
15:24<+glx:#openttd>SmatZ: aren't the empty .dat unneeded?
15:24<@Rubidium:#openttd>depends, maybe it's correct
15:24<@Rubidium:#openttd>(probably it isn't though)
15:24<+glx:#openttd>that's why I ask :)
15:25<pavel1269:#openttd>what means .acc ... .dat? :-)
15:25<@Rubidium:#openttd>that're cases in strgen-speak
15:26<pavel1269:#openttd>well, we have 7 cases ... (czech)
15:26<@Rubidium:#openttd>TrueBrain: it's always possible to change G 0 ... to G:0. It's probably not a lot of work in strgen, but WT2 would go crazy
15:26<SmatZ:#openttd>glx: I don't know :)
15:27<frosch123:#openttd>pavel1269: nom gen dat acc voc loc ins big small
15:27<SmatZ:#openttd>I never noticed that missing
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15:27<frosch123:#openttd>except "ins" quite latin
15:27<TrueBrain:#openttd>Rubidium: something to keep for WT3 than ;)
15:27<+glx:#openttd>frosch123: big and small are probably fake cases
15:27<frosch123:#openttd>thought so :) but they misspelled "abl" as "ins"
15:28<pavel1269:#openttd>SmatZ: so just fill it with proper case and be happy? :-)
15:29<planetmaker:#openttd>I wouldn't call it "base translation" but "English original"
15:30<TrueBrain:#openttd>planetmaker: a) wrong channel, b) wrong channel :p
15:31<@Rubidium:#openttd>c) right person!
15:31<@Rubidium:#openttd>d) and a few more ;)
15:32<SmatZ:#openttd>pavel1269: "lokomotivě"?
15:32<pavel1269:#openttd>true
15:32<pavel1269:#openttd>:-)
15:33<SmatZ:#openttd>nominativ, genitiv, dativ, akuzativ, vokal, lokal, instrumental? or how are the cases called :)
15:33<pavel1269:#openttd>its just our cases or .... ?
15:33-!-Zuu [~Zuu@c-71fae253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd
15:33<SmatZ:#openttd>czech cases :)
15:33<frosch123:#openttd>"instrumental"? that pretty sounds like "ablativ" :)
15:34<SmatZ:#openttd>:-p "ablativ" from spanish "ablar", or from english "able"? :)
15:34<pavel1269:#openttd>just wondering ... any vokal case defined? :-P
15:35<SmatZ:#openttd>hehehe
15:35<frosch123:#openttd>latin case: nominativ, genitiv, dativ, accusativ, vocativ, locativ, ablativ
15:35<pavel1269:#openttd>we have same? :O
15:35<SmatZ:#openttd>ah :)
15:35<SmatZ:#openttd>interesting :)
15:35<frosch123:#openttd>though I learned that the romans couldn't handle "locativ" themself
15:36<SmatZ:#openttd>hehe
15:36<SmatZ:#openttd>poor romans :)
15:36<pavel1269:#openttd>:D
15:36<pavel1269:#openttd>stupid language (czech) ...
15:37<planetmaker:#openttd>frosch123: I'd say there are 6 latin ones only: locativ is not quite a case... afair the old days ;)
15:37<SmatZ:#openttd>frosch123: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablative_case http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_case I think thoses cases are different
15:38<SmatZ:#openttd>Ablative of Instrument = Instrumenta case ... or so
15:38<Aylomen:#openttd>ablative is more general I think
15:38<frosch123:#openttd>but latin uses ablativ also for instrumental stuff
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15:39<Aylomen:#openttd>in latin it is the "ablativus instrumentalis"
15:39<planetmaker:#openttd>Ablative is kind of "by means of" or yeah... instrumental
15:39<frosch123:#openttd>i.e. just like accusativ is also used to express "towards"
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15:40<frosch123:#openttd>but that is not the main usage of accusativ
15:40<Aylomen:#openttd>but the expression towards needs an preposition
15:41<@Rubidium:#openttd>just drop cases... so much easier
15:41<Aylomen:#openttd>and the preposition needs the accusative
15:41<SmatZ:#openttd>hehe
15:41<SmatZ:#openttd>Rubidium: you use 4 cases?
15:42<@Rubidium:#openttd>SmatZ: well... depends on how you look at it
15:43<@Rubidium:#openttd>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language#Genders_and_cases <- compare the "complexity" of the Dutch and German cases in that table
15:44<SmatZ:#openttd>8-) nice
15:44<frosch123:#openttd>genitiv is also "obsolete" in certain parts of germany :p
15:44*Rubidium:#openttd always used the inventiv with German ;)
15:44<SmatZ:#openttd>:-D
15:44<frosch123:#openttd>:)
15:45<@Rubidium:#openttd>can I make this sentence grammatically correct if all words are in plural? If yes... bingo!
15:46<SmatZ:#openttd>:)
15:46<@Rubidium:#openttd>the teacher didn't like it, but ... the test was about grammar not making sentences that make sense
15:46<SmatZ:#openttd>hehe
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16:20<fjb:#openttd>Hello
16:20<TrueBrain:#openttd>hi fjb
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16:23<Zuu:#openttd>Hello
16:24<SmatZ:#openttd>hello fjb
16:24<SmatZ:#openttd>hello Zuu
16:24<fjb:#openttd>Haven't been here quite a while. Have to catch up with all the news.
16:24<Zuu:#openttd>Hello SmatZ
16:24<SmatZ:#openttd>nothing to see here, move around...
16:25<Zuu:#openttd>There is some lengthy discussions about (air)ports in the forums. Have not read todays yet :)
16:25<Zuu:#openttd>There are*
16:25*fjb:#openttd is busy reading the forum.
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16:31<planetmaker:#openttd>much hate I sense in the airport discussions.
16:32<planetmaker:#openttd>... and hate leads to suffering ;)
16:33<SmatZ:#openttd>:o)
16:33<Yexo:#openttd>main problem I see there is that richk is angry because his implementation is not necesarily used
16:34<Yexo:#openttd>it's too bad he doesn't accept that fact and helps with another implementation
16:34<TrueBrain:#openttd>I think that '18' months of angryness is misplaced in any situation
16:34<TrueBrain:#openttd>they should put expire times on that :)
16:34<Yexo:#openttd>like how Celestar/fonsischen went in a discuttion about cargodest, albeit their completely different designs
16:35<@Belugas:#openttd>ho... richk.. again...
16:35<TrueBrain:#openttd>hi Belugas :)
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16:36<@Belugas:#openttd>TrueBrain :D
16:36<@Belugas:#openttd>hello dear boy
16:36<TrueBrain:#openttd>how are you? :)
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16:36<@Belugas:#openttd>still on vacation, playing a lot with kiddo and with guitar ;)
16:37<TrueBrain:#openttd>:) That should be nice ;)
16:37<@Belugas:#openttd>wor asked me to do a few stuff during the evening
16:37<@Belugas:#openttd>i take the opportunity to wave hello
16:37<SmatZ:#openttd>Belugas: nice to hear :)
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16:43<@Belugas:#openttd>arrogant moron, that richk
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16:45<TrueBrain:#openttd>Belugas: tnx for that summary :)
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16:45<fjb:#openttd>I don't find the link to the precompiled binaries (beside the release version).
16:46<Zuu:#openttd>I think he also have withrawn the realwordairports.grf if I'm not mistaken.
16:47<Zuu:#openttd>At least reading the first post in his thread it seams so.
16:50<Yexo:#openttd>realworldairports.grf has been long gone
16:50<Yexo:#openttd>at least for a year now
16:50<@Belugas:#openttd>TrueBrain, it was like that since day 1. it's the way I want it or it's sabotage
16:51<TrueBrain:#openttd>he always kept out of my way, so I have no idea :) But I believe you .. you rarely have a negative strong opinion about someone, so :)
16:51<@Belugas:#openttd>he cannot take a no for an answer, he wants stuff being done for him, he prefers hacks and shortcuts
16:53<@Belugas:#openttd>i don't? buwhahahaha!!!!
16:54<@Belugas:#openttd>TrueBrain, you remember all the work we did on the tgp branch? He called it sabotage
16:55<@Belugas:#openttd>we had the insane idea to look at his code and make it better. how silly of us to do so
16:55<Forked:#openttd>hacks make things more realistic!
16:55*Forked:#openttd runs for the hills
16:56<@Belugas:#openttd>i told him right from the start that the callback system would be better than his approach. he did not jumped on hte wagon mainly because he did not understood the callback system at all
16:56<@Belugas:#openttd>and if he does not understand, it's surely because it's evil and nor worth working on it
16:56<@Belugas:#openttd>bitch
16:56<@Belugas:#openttd>and yes inded, we are the arrogant devs
16:58<TrueBrain:#openttd>Belugas: see, that I completely missed that he didn't like we finished TGP (well .. it was like 60% done or so :p)
16:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>I just thought he was happy we did that :) Clearly .. I was wrong ;) Don't care .. I am happy we did finish TGP :p
16:59<@Belugas:#openttd>nonono in his mind, it was finished
16:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>HAHAHAHAHA
16:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>oh, that is funny :)
16:59<pavel1269:#openttd>TGP?
16:59<@Belugas:#openttd>and the best, is to see him coming in and asking us to sinc newgrf port... yeahright
16:59<TrueBrain:#openttd>landscape generator
16:59<pavel1269:#openttd>the great paradise? :-)
16:59<pavel1269:#openttd>ahh
17:00<@Belugas:#openttd>TerraGenesisPerlin
17:00<TrueBrain:#openttd>anyway, I suggest to all to put a big IGNORE on his head, and wait till that storm has passed ;)
17:00<@petern:#openttd>Terrible Generated Poo
17:00<pavel1269:#openttd>thought about that also :-P
17:01<Xaroth:#openttd>lolwut
17:01<Xaroth:#openttd>sf.net svn upload speed deluxe
17:01<Xaroth:#openttd>whopping 1.3kb/s!
17:01<TrueBrain:#openttd>Xaroth: don't say we didn't warn you!
17:01<Xaroth:#openttd>you did, i know
17:01<Xaroth:#openttd>but by lack of better.. etc
17:02<Zuu:#openttd>http://savannah.gnu.org/ ?
17:02<Zuu:#openttd>No idea if it is any faster though
17:02*Xaroth:#openttd shrugs
17:02<@petern:#openttd>we could do with another better generator really :s
17:03<TrueBrain:#openttd>petern: this one is already ^1000 better than the old one
17:03<@Belugas:#openttd>yeah... one with better chi
17:03<@Belugas:#openttd>but it does have flaws, TrueBrain
17:03<@petern:#openttd>TrueBrain, i don't agree
17:03<TrueBrain:#openttd>Belugas: yup :)
17:03<TrueBrain:#openttd>petern: you find the old one better?! Scary :)
17:04<@Belugas:#openttd>like it could have "regions" instead of been uniform
17:04<Yexo:#openttd>petern: I've a working patch that allows you to script a new map generator in squirrel
17:05<Yexo:#openttd>makes it easy to debug / share :)
17:05<@Belugas:#openttd>youhou!
17:05<pavel1269:#openttd>again stupid chi ... whats that? :-)
17:06<pavel1269:#openttd>i knwo ... sth about ... terrain looking
17:06<pavel1269:#openttd>not all uniform and so on ... but ...
17:06<@petern:#openttd>Yexo, nice :D
17:06<@Belugas:#openttd>it's indeed a stupidity, pavel1269
17:06<@petern:#openttd>Belugas, yes, regions good
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17:06<Yexo:#openttd>regions are hard to code though, if you don't want the regions to be uniform
17:06<@petern:#openttd>yup
17:06<fjb:#openttd>How about rivers then? *hides*
17:07<@petern:#openttd>i like the old generator because it provides a mix of flat and non-flat land
17:07<@petern:#openttd>tgp doesn't really
17:07<@Rubidium:#openttd>drought?
17:07<Yexo:#openttd>fjb: my patch will have support for that
17:07<pavel1269:#openttd>true, i use him also :-)
17:07<@petern:#openttd>bananasat? heh
17:07<pavel1269:#openttd>for very hilly, tgp is better but ....
17:07*fjb:#openttd votes for Yexo's patch.
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17:08<pavel1269:#openttd>i wonder, how will you create those rivers :-)
17:09<pavel1269:#openttd>like ... if i cut it in half... will it create a lake and find new way to a sea? :D
17:09<@petern:#openttd>that's not a function of the landscape generator
17:09<@petern:#openttd>it's already generated then :p
17:09<@petern:#openttd>oh, and another gripe with richk: those stupid extra airports :s
17:10<pavel1269:#openttd>well, landscape generator create a river ... but just a "start" ? .... and other msut be handled somewhere else :-)
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17:10<pavel1269:#openttd>hmm? :-)
17:10<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Hello all
17:10<pavel1269:#openttd>hi
17:11<Zuu:#openttd>pavel1269: I guess that is up to the terain generator script.
17:11<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Hello pavel1269
17:11<pavel1269:#openttd>Zuu: and if i cut ingame that river ... its no longer a river :P
17:11<@petern:#openttd>in game behaviour is probably a bit out of scope of the landscape generator, though
17:12<pavel1269:#openttd>i am talking about rivers :-)
17:12<Yexo:#openttd>pavel1269: as Zuu said, it's up to the script on how it generates them
17:12<pavel1269:#openttd>true, but i am dreaming here :-D
17:12<Yexo:#openttd>it's only about generating them (together with the map), not about lively rivers or stuff like that
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17:12<Yexo:#openttd>planetmaker was working on that some time ago iirc
17:13<planetmaker:#openttd>he...
17:13<pavel1269:#openttd>:D
17:13<TrueBrain:#openttd>I wish you all a very good night :) I will be back monday or so :) Enjoy your weekend!!
17:13<pavel1269:#openttd>cya
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17:13<planetmaker:#openttd>good night & nice weekend, TrueBrain
17:13<Yexo:#openttd>bye TrueBrain
17:13<Yexo:#openttd>have a nice weekend
17:14<Nite_Owl:#openttd>later TrueBrain
17:14<planetmaker:#openttd>pavel1269: if you're interested, what I stopped at is there: http://www.openttdcoop.org/files/pm/patches/gen_rivers_v1.05_r13826.diff
17:14<Zuu:#openttd>cya TrueBrain
17:15<planetmaker:#openttd>But it's not really "lively" rivers. The biggest obstacle for me right then was to come up with a decent path finder for rivers.
17:15<planetmaker:#openttd>But given a decent pathfinder, it should be feasable to build lively rivers upon that.
17:16<pavel1269:#openttd>nice, will look at it maybye tomorow :-)
17:16<@Belugas:#openttd>petern, yeah, big aiports... and remember, we had (again) to battle very hard for him to not include them all...
17:16<pavel1269:#openttd>but my c/c++ skills are ..... cant see that deep
17:17<Xaroth:#openttd>thar, updated AutoTTD thread with codez
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17:19<planetmaker:#openttd>pavel1269: look in the folder (w/o that filename) for some images)
17:19<planetmaker:#openttd>actually... only one :P http://www.openttdcoop.org/files/pm/patches/river.png
17:20<pavel1269:#openttd>nice one :-)
17:20<Yexo:#openttd>pavel1269: if you want to have a look, see http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/mapgen/
17:20<pavel1269:#openttd>nice!!
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17:23<pavel1269:#openttd>but, the last one .... the very hilly one .... its not ideal
17:24<Yexo:#openttd>pavel1269: it's not about those screenshots, those are just from a (pretty simple) script I wrote to test the system
17:24<Yexo:#openttd>the idea is that it should be much easier to write your own map generator
17:24<pavel1269:#openttd>i know, you are making that squirell thingy like AI ...
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17:24<Yexo:#openttd>just modifying a few parameter in the main.nut I provide will already give different results
17:24<Yexo:#openttd>exactly
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17:26<pavel1269:#openttd>well, gn
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17:39<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: that allows access to the path finders as it's using squirrel, right?
17:39<Yexo:#openttd>not directly, but the AI pathfinder libraries can be copied
17:39<planetmaker:#openttd>what would be your position wrt resorting to that even during normal game e.g. when a river needs to find a new path due to terraforming?
17:39<planetmaker:#openttd>is the use of squirrel then bad?
17:40<Zuu:#openttd>PAXLink - download one every day and keeps the doctor away. :p (yes there comes a new version also today with a bug fix)
17:40<planetmaker:#openttd>oh.. and why the need to copy the pf?
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17:40<planetmaker:#openttd>that doesn't sound ... efficient ;)
17:40<Yexo:#openttd>maybe the pf doesn't need to be copied, but you don't want a road pathfidner nor a rail pathfidner, so you'll have to write your own anyway :p
17:40<Yexo:#openttd>the AyStar library can be used though
17:41<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: well... I think such PF could do actually. You just need to change the penalties.
17:41<planetmaker:#openttd>but yeah. a* should do, I guess
17:41<Yexo:#openttd>but for changing the penalties you'll have to make a copy :)
17:41<planetmaker:#openttd>Yexo: they're not configurable via parameter?
17:41<Yexo:#openttd>they are, but you don't want a river over a bridge, do you?
17:42<planetmaker:#openttd>:D
17:42<planetmaker:#openttd>natural aquaducts - don't you know them by the hundrets? ;)
17:42<Yexo:#openttd>and I can image some penalties special to riviers, like don't bend twice after eachother
17:43<planetmaker:#openttd>well... I wouldn't mind that actually.
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17:43<Yexo:#openttd>the rail and road pathfinder share quite some code, but they are two different pathfinders (ie copied, not one pf configured via parameters)
17:43<planetmaker:#openttd>My approach was to use a general direction as kind of average over the last few steps of finding a path
17:43<Yexo:#openttd>about lively rivers, using squirrel code could be possible, but I dunno if that makes much sense
17:44<planetmaker:#openttd>ok
17:44<Yexo:#openttd>after all, it's not likely you want to write multiple implementations
17:44<planetmaker:#openttd>well, true :)
17:45<planetmaker:#openttd>it was me who thought that the code could be re-used directly. But you knowing much more about them, I thought it a good idea to ask you about it :)
17:45<Yexo:#openttd>maybe it can, I dunno yet
17:45<Yexo:#openttd>I haven't started on the implementation supporting rivers yet
17:45<planetmaker:#openttd>So one might just copy & translate it into c++ with the correct penalties
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17:46<Yexo:#openttd>that should be trivial, as squirrel is c-like
17:46<planetmaker:#openttd>he :) I haven't yet looked at squirrel at all, I have to admit
17:47<planetmaker:#openttd>but code is code and porting from one language to another is mostly not that difficult if one can get the structure
17:47<Yexo:#openttd>http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/mapgen/main.nut <- demonstrates enough of it to give you an idea how it works
17:47<planetmaker:#openttd>true
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17:52<planetmaker:#openttd>anyway... I wish you a good night for now :)
17:52<planetmaker:#openttd>and all others, too
17:54<SmatZ:#openttd>good night, planetmaker :)
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17:59<Nite_Owl:#openttd>later planetmaker
18:10<@petern:#openttd>Yexo, so how's performance?
18:10<Yexo:#openttd>haven't tested that too well
18:10<Yexo:#openttd>depends on the script of course
18:10<Yexo:#openttd>but it's doable
18:11<Yexo:#openttd>I can generate the landscape in +- 1 second on my laptop
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18:11<Yexo:#openttd>that's a 2048x2048 map
18:12<Yexo:#openttd>sorry, that was tgp :(
18:13<Yexo:#openttd>it's way too slow for big maps :(
18:13<@petern:#openttd>hehe
18:13<Yexo:#openttd>15 seconds for a 1024x1024 map
18:15<Yexo:#openttd>that may be because my script is slow though, dunno
18:15<Yexo:#openttd>I'll do some real testing tomorrow
18:15<Yexo:#openttd>gn all
18:15<Zuu:#openttd>Good night Yexo
18:16<Nite_Owl:#openttd>later Yexo
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18:34<Pikka:#openttd>any ottd forum mods awake? :)
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18:58<@Rubidium:#openttd>Pikkaa: report the post you want to have changed and a mod will (eventually) find it
19:00<Pikkaa:#openttd>:)
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19:06<Nite_Owl:#openttd>Need to feed - later all
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20:57<MapperOG_:#openttd>can I move a vehicle from one depo to another?
21:00<SmatZ:#openttd>no
21:01<+glx_:#openttd>well you can give it orders to do so :)
21:01<SmatZ:#openttd>it would be very easy to cheat this way ;)
21:01<SmatZ:#openttd>as in locomotion :-p
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21:36<MapperOG_:#openttd>what use do I have, if I buy someone elses stock?
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21:57<SmatZ:#openttd>MapperOG_: you can sell it later for more than you bought it
21:57<SmatZ:#openttd>it, if it's AI, you can buy 100% of the company
21:57<SmatZ:#openttd>and merge it with your company...
22:01<subzero22:#openttd>hello
22:02<subzero22:#openttd>I was wondering you know on some servers you can type !goal? I was wanting to know what I need or how I can do something like that but fur !rules instead. to show the server rules
22:06-!-MapperOG_ [~mirrakor@p57B2DC4D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
22:11<+glx_:#openttd>subzero22: ask the admin of these servers, as they probably use a modified version
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22:39<KenjiE20|LT:#openttd>@wiki Autopilot
22:40<KenjiE20|LT:#openttd>oh coops gone
22:40<KenjiE20|LT:#openttd>http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/Autopilot
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22:41<KenjiE20|LT:#openttd>oh wait, I'm blind
22:41<KenjiE20|LT:#openttd>I'll see myself out :P
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 17 00:00:05 2009