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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-05-11

---Logopened Mon May 11 00:00:57 2009
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02:18<z-MaTRiX>TrueBrain, no, http://www.haskell.org/ghc/
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03:07<Xaroth>morning
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03:10<planetmaker>morning
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03:12<z-MaTRiX>hey
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04:39<@petern>785 changesets :s
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05:14<@petern>well, there, railtypes synced & compiled
05:15<TrueBrain>so when will it be merged? :p
05:19<@petern>never!
05:19<@petern>mwhahaha
05:19<TrueBrain>oh no, petern went evil?
05:25<Xaroth>ruh oh
05:25<Xaroth>TrueBrain: cheers again, <3 it
05:26<TrueBrain>;)
05:27<Xaroth>boss gave me the creds for getting into evo as well, so now i can go whenever i please
05:27<TrueBrain>yeah!
05:27<TrueBrain>PARTY!
05:27<Xaroth>aye
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05:30<@petern>evo?
05:33<TrueBrain>a DC here in Haarlem
05:33<TrueBrain>(next to Amsterdam)
05:33<TrueBrain>a 'green' DC :)
05:34<@petern>a DC ?
05:34<TrueBrain>DataCenter ... you should know thatone ;)
05:35<@petern>ah
05:35<@petern>never abbreviated data centre :p
05:35<TrueBrain>too many letters
05:35<@petern>and i spell centre correctly
05:36<TrueBrain>I hate british :p
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05:36<@petern>also some abbreviations need context
05:36<TrueBrain>excuses! :)
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06:14<PeterT>hi
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07:14<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16276 /trunk/src/economy_type.h: -Fix: huh, old AI? What is that? What about all the time I thought there was no AI?
07:14<SpComb>it was lurking... waiting... waiting for it's time to come
07:14<SpComb>one day the lingering remenants of the old OpenTTD AI will rise up and take control
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07:20<planetmaker>he... good one :)
07:21<Noldo>rubidium is squashing it like a bug!
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07:39<Ammler>I am still waiting for new AI, behaving like the original AI. :-)
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07:40<@SmatZ>noais will never be allowed to cheat
07:40<[wito]>What does fund local road reconstruction and fund new buildings do?
07:40<@SmatZ>funds local road reconstruction ot funds new building
07:40<[wito]>(except for the former causing traffic holdups, of course)
07:40<Ammler>it was so nice to watch the ai, terraforming everything trying there and there and finally gave up.
07:41<@SmatZ>:-p
07:41<@SmatZ>[wito]: road reconstruction can remove some pieces of road (theoretically, depends on settings)
07:43<Ammler>doesn't it also change the ownership?
07:43<@SmatZ>it shouldn't
07:44<[wito]>well, local road reconstruction is no great mystery (tho' I think it does cause the city to claim ownership of player-built roads)
07:44<[wito]>but fund new buildings, OTOH; what does that do?
07:44<[wito]>Force some town growth?
07:44<@petern>that funds new buildings
07:44<@petern>it's cleverly named
07:44<@SmatZ>:o)
07:45<Ammler>[wito]: you use that to growth a town to accept goods, i.e.
07:45<Ammler>no idea about raiting influence.
07:45<[wito]>or more usefully, coax an artic/desert town into grow to a stage where it can accept food? :P
07:47<Ammler>to update a git clone, I just need to run "git pull"?
07:48<Ammler>github.com seems down.
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07:55<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16277 /trunk/src/ (town.h town_cmd.cpp town_type.h): -Codechange: enumerize values and remove unneeded values used for testing town rating
07:55<fjb>Hello
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08:00<+glx>Ammler: git pull, then git update
08:01<+glx>IIRC there's also git fetch (which does pull and update)
08:01<Ammler>well, my issue is that github.com seems not available for git
08:02<Ammler>there is no up for git
08:03<dihedral>Ammler, google?
08:03<dihedral>get yourself a git book online
08:03<dihedral>or join something like
08:04<dihedral>#git :-P
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08:04<@SmatZ>Ammler: I am using "git pull && git checkout origin/master" ... but that can be very wrong :)
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08:10*frosch123 ponders starting a game with the stocks setting
08:49<@petern>the what?
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08:55<frosch123>exactly, that is most difficult part of it
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09:04<@Belugas>hellooo
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09:09<TrueBrain>hi Belugas :)
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09:24<@Belugas>hello TrueBrain!
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09:57<planetmaker>SmatZ, did you make the game more difficult or where do I not understand your latest commit?
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09:58<planetmaker>ah... nvm
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10:31<@petern>grrrrr
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10:48<insulfrog>hi
10:54<[wito]>Is switching town ownership wrt. roads and houses something easily doable in code?
10:56<planetmaker>hm... no-one owns a town.
10:59<[wito]>a town does. :P
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11:01<planetmaker>[wito], then I guess the answer depends upon how you want the gui / the selection process. That'd eat most of the work time, I guess
11:01<planetmaker>http://www.votematch.eu/ <-- hehe, nice :) Now I know what I'm going to vote :)
11:02<planetmaker>at EU parliaments elections :)
11:02<[wito]>planetmaker: I'm not asking what eats time; I'm asking if there's a simple way of doing it?
11:03<planetmaker>define "simple"
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11:04<[wito]>is the owning town/player set on a tile/building/road as a field in a structure, or are there all kinds of convoluted shit going ont?
11:04<[wito]>*on
11:05<planetmaker>it's part of the map array
11:06<planetmaker>so... in principle read the proper bits and set them differently
11:07<[wito]>mkay
11:07<[wito]>exploring the area around a tile is fairly straightforward, yeah?
11:07<planetmaker>:D
11:07<planetmaker>define "exploring" ;)
11:07<[wito]>(e.g. figuring out wether there is a town within X tiles)
11:08<planetmaker>but there's circular_tile_search or something
11:08<planetmaker>or find_closest_town
11:08<planetmaker>no guarantee for the proper function names, though
11:08<[wito]>I'm sure I can find them
11:08<[wito]>how about aligning to the city grid (for 2x2 and 3x3 city layouts?
11:09<planetmaker>that's already possible afaik
11:09<[wito]>)((see if you can guess what I'm wanting to do. ;)))
11:13<@Belugas>create a domino board ingame around towns?
11:14<[wito]>?
11:16<@Belugas>ho no.. i know... you're going to BUY the towns!
11:20<[wito]>heh
11:20<[wito]>being able to buy towns outright would certainly be less of a hassle than having to keep renewing exclusive transport rights...
11:20<[wito]>but no
11:22<[wito]>what about creating a new town without ASKING for a town name, just giving one?
11:22<@Belugas>...
11:22<[wito]>I'm sorry for asking so many questions all up in here; but you most certainly have a better command of the code than I do
11:22<@Belugas>and what about checking if that town name does not already exists?
11:23<[wito]>Probably a good idea, yes
11:23<@Belugas>and what is wrong with the town funding patch?
11:23<@petern>what's up?
11:23<@petern>towns are not... owned
11:23<@Belugas>apart the fact that alain updates it... of course...
11:23<@petern>therefore house 'owner' is not stored
11:23<@petern>if you wanted a town to be owned, you'd store an owner in the town struct, off-map.
11:23<@petern>but that'd be crazy
11:24<[wito]>petern: you misunderstand me
11:24<[wito]>I'm not talking about player ownage; I'm thinking of local authority juridstiction
11:24<@petern>i was reading top->down
11:24<@petern>:p
11:24<@petern>houses store the town id
11:24<@petern>at least, iirc :)
11:24<@Belugas>usuallt, it's left to right...
11:24<@petern>pretty sure they do
11:24<@Belugas>indeed :)
11:25<@Belugas>"This is MY house you destroyed" - "Nah it's mine, i bought it"!!
11:25<[wito]>Actually, it seems as if multiple towns with the same name can coexist
11:26<@petern>what does name have to do with anything?
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11:26<[wito]><Belugas> and what about checking if that town name does not already exists?
11:27<@petern>so the real jist is you want to fund towns in game?
11:27<@petern>or what?
11:27<rellig>is there a way to enable never_expire_vehicles on a running network game?
11:27<[wito]>petern: sort of;
11:28<[wito]>I want to build a town budding/suburbanization patch
11:28<@Belugas>[11:28] <[wito]> Actually, it seems as if multiple towns with the same name can coexist <-- "Seems"
11:28<@Belugas>BOOOM!!!
11:28<[wito]>Belugas: tested it on a running game by renaming a town to the name of another
11:28<[wito]>no immediate ill effects
11:28<@SmatZ>rellig: not possible in multiplayer
11:28<@petern>you want suburbs to become towns in their own right?
11:28<@Belugas>rellig, i guess the console can do that, but don't quote me on it
11:29<rellig>the console cant, unfortunatly
11:29<@Belugas>oooh... sorry
11:29<[wito]>petern: indeed
11:29<@petern>you have to stop the game, load it in single player, change the setting, reload the game on the server
11:29<rellig>but it is possible if i restart the server and set it in the config?
11:29<@Belugas>[wito] : we all know how good tests are been done :)
11:29<rellig>petern: thx, i will try
11:30<[wito]>Belugas: are towns looked up by name anywhere?
11:30<@petern>[wito], you realise that, in real life (whoops, i'm going to die) it happens the other way around?
11:30<[wito]>petern: yeah
11:30<[wito]>usually it does
11:31<@petern>anyway
11:31<@Belugas>[wito]: not looked up at, no, not as far as i remember
11:31<@petern>what's the problem with choosing a name?
11:31<@Belugas>but that does not mean it shall work
11:31<[wito]>But I'd guess that places like the New York boroughs have local-authority-like juridstiction
11:31<@petern>a bigger problem is surely finding where it should happen...
11:31<[wito]>petern: PIA
11:31<[wito]>(player-initiated-action)
11:32<@petern>oh
11:32<@petern>why on earth?
11:32<@petern>that's not a transport company related task...
11:33*petern imagines Arriva deciding Oxford is too big, and splitting off its surburbs into separate authorities
11:34<[wito]>So what you are saying is that (big) transport companies never influence local politics?
11:34<@petern>not in that way
11:35<@Belugas>at least, they do not create town split up...
11:35<@petern>they're more interested in things like subsidies
11:35<@Belugas>they may try to change zoning for their own good
11:35<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16278 /branches/0.7/ (49 files in 5 dirs):
11:35<CIA-3>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
11:35<CIA-3>OpenTTD: - Fix: The language is called Slovak, not Slovakish (r16090)
11:37<@Belugas>but that is pretty much the same as bribing
11:37<@Belugas>or planting trees
11:37<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> http://www.votematch.eu/ <-- hehe, nice :) Now I know what I'm going to vote :) <- i don't
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11:39<@SmatZ>hehe
11:40<@SmatZ>I got >30% for 4 parties...
11:40<@SmatZ>but still 35% isn't what I would call "sufficient match"
11:40*Belugas prefers lighter than matches
11:40<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, well. An indication maybe :)
11:41<@Belugas>huhuhuhu
11:41<@SmatZ>:o)
11:43<planetmaker>haha :)
11:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16279 /tags/0.7.1-RC1/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Release: 0.7.1-RC1
11:46<@SmatZ>release!
11:47<planetmaker>congratz! :)
11:47<fjb>I would prefer a patch where big towns would incorporate neighbouring small towns.
11:48<@petern>zomg
11:51<@Belugas>i had such an idea one day: when two towns are so entwined there are no differences between them, call up for fusion
11:51<@Belugas>just that it's a hell of a big stuff to do for very little gain..
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11:57<luckz>quesssstion.
11:58<luckz>I have the data files in My Documents to not need a copy for every OpenTTD folder
11:58<luckz>I'd love to do the same with content_download
11:58<luckz>is this possible/going to be implemented any time soon?
12:00<@Belugas>personnaly, i do not know the answer to neither of your questions
12:00<@Belugas>sorry
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12:02<luckz>also, are there any places where I might find grf combination suggestions?
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12:04<fjb>Do not combine too many grfs at once.
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12:05<luckz>well, I want to play with dbsetxl
12:05<luckz>I figured some road and train replacements might also be good.
12:06<luckz>I wouldn't mind using/having trams.
12:06<luckz>station graphics wouldn't hurt either
12:06<luckz>I have the openttdcoop pack, so a good 60mb of GRF files
12:06<luckz>I just have no idea which to use and in which order etc
12:06<[wito]>I find that eGRVTS, New Ships (by MB) + ECSx, basic platforms and suburban stations goes well with everything
12:07<Ammler>all stations go well
12:07<Ammler>(as you don't need to use them)
12:07<fjb>I would group it thematically. MBs stations with the dbset, canadian and us stations with nars, etc.
12:07<luckz>egrvts and not grvts, yeah?
12:08<Ammler>yes
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12:10<luckz>fjb: but if I get the ECSx for New Ships, I also need ECS, no?
12:10-!-Combuster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
12:10<fjb>No.
12:12<luckz>would you mind explaining that to an idiot? and with suburban, you mean ae_subuw.GRF but not modernsuburbanw.GRF?
12:12-!-tux_mark_5 [~kvirc@lan-84-240-29-163.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #openttd
12:13<tux_mark_5>hello
12:13<[wito]>ECSx for New Ships is actually not ECS support, it's newindustries support
12:13<TrueBrain>hello tux_mark_5
12:14<tux_mark_5>i've recently ran into a problem concerning "multiple newgrf engine sets"
12:14<tux_mark_5>i've added like 4 grfs into a running game
12:14<tux_mark_5>poked around for a while
12:14<DaleStan>Adding newgrfs to a running game is not supported.
12:15<tux_mark_5>really?
12:15<tux_mark_5>that's weird
12:15<[wito]>Newgrafs to a new game; hic svnt draconis
12:15<[wito]>err
12:15<[wito]>running game
12:15<DaleStan>That would be the meaning of the big red error box you presumably ignored.
12:15<luckz>DaleStan: it is when there are no vehicles in the game, no?
12:15<luckz>at least that's what my game claimed
12:15<tux_mark_5>yes
12:16<tux_mark_5>there are no vehicles
12:16<tux_mark_5>and enabling that option works
12:16<tux_mark_5>and trains work
12:16<tux_mark_5>BUT
12:16<DaleStan>In that case, it depends on the content of the GRF.
12:16<tux_mark_5>when I remove a grf
12:16<tux_mark_5>or two
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12:16<tux_mark_5>it results in duplicates of original train set
12:16<tux_mark_5>if i had 4 grfs and then removed them all
12:16<tux_mark_5>i would get 4 original sets
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12:17<tux_mark_5>resetengines doesn't help either
12:17<tux_mark_5>i think that might be a bug
12:17<planetmaker>don't remove newgrfs on running games :)
12:17<planetmaker>any behaviour resulting from that is not supported.
12:17<tux_mark_5>oh
12:18<tux_mark_5>well, i don't need to remove them either
12:18<tux_mark_5>but the problem is
12:18<tux_mark_5>that pricing of original engines is weird
12:18<planetmaker>... you chose wrongly before you started. And tried to combine incompatible newgrfs
12:18<tux_mark_5>probably
12:18<tux_mark_5>is there any way to reset pricing?
12:19<tux_mark_5>because I have infrastructure in place
12:19<tux_mark_5>and I wouldn't like to lose it
12:19<Ammler>some presets of me: http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/User:Ammler/NewGRF_Presets
12:19<[wito]>tux_mark_5: I'm not to certain of this, but saving, quitting and loading MIGHT solve the problem
12:19<luckz>Ammler: thanks.
12:20<tux_mark_5>ok, i'll try that
12:20<[wito]>But as has been pointed out
12:20<[wito]>once you start fiddling with the grfs in a running game, you're off the map
12:21<tux_mark_5>it didn't help
12:21<tux_mark_5>well, I managed to remove duplicates
12:21<tux_mark_5>by turning "multiple engines" option on and off
12:22<tux_mark_5>but now livestock van costs like 36118 euros instead of 2000
12:22<tux_mark_5>prices of other vans are insanely high too
12:23<tux_mark_5>I could give you my save game, so you could check it out
12:23<luckz>is there anything about the newGUI that is better than the original?
12:24<TrueBrain>it has 'new' in its name!!
12:24<tux_mark_5>xD
12:25<luckz>is any OpenGFX stuff actually better?
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12:27<@Belugas>different. not better
12:27<@Belugas>and mostly, not completed
12:27<[wito]>tux_mark_5: still; you're in undefined behaviour country
12:27<tux_mark_5>i guess
12:27<luckz>Belugas: any you recommend using?
12:27<tux_mark_5>can i reset it? xD
12:28<@Belugas>luckz, i'm not using many grfs, honestly. in fact, mostly, none
12:28<luckz>the GUI itself I don't think I want to use, terrain I have no opinion on yet, fonts are not horrible I guess, dunno what eyecandy does
12:28<luckz>oke
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12:31<tux_mark_5>so, is there any way to restart the game while preserving infrastructure?
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12:40<+glx_>you mean the map?
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12:44<tux_mark_5>yes
12:44<tux_mark_5>glx:
12:44<tux_mark_5>so, is there any way to do that?
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12:47<+glx>you can use the same seed
12:47<+glx>there's a command to get the seed (I can't remember it's name)
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12:49<tux_mark_5>but I've layed tracks and everything
12:50<+glx>you'll lost that
12:50<tux_mark_5>i'll get it back xD
12:50<tux_mark_5>worst case scenario: i'll hack around inside openttd source
12:53<@SmatZ>you can rename the game to .scn, load it in the scenario editor, and use the "Reset landscape" function
12:53<@SmatZ>but it's better to first remove all companies..
12:53<@SmatZ>that reminds me, something I wanted to "fix" long time ago :-x
12:54<planetmaker>:)
12:54-!-batti5_ [~batti5@92.85.208.183] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:54<@Belugas>dinner?
12:54<@Belugas>you wanted to fix dinner?
12:54<@Belugas>or supper?
12:55<Ammler>Belugas: good idea :-)
12:55-!-batti5_ [~batti5@92.84.6.153] has joined #openttd
12:56<planetmaker>nice :) Sounds good
12:56-!-thingwath [~thingwath@morana.sks2.muni.cz] has joined #openttd
12:56<Xaroth>TrueBrain: so i go to evo.. i drive out.. car trouble, GRRRR >:(
12:56<Xaroth>spent 5 hours on something that shouldn't even take 2
12:58<Xaroth>on a better note, got the company car until my car is fixed
13:05<TrueBrain>ghehehe
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13:08<tux_mark_5>well, i managed to cut down the prices xD
13:08<tux_mark_5>from 35000 to 9000 euros ;D
13:08<tux_mark_5>for a standard car
13:09<tux_mark_5>it appears that NARS 2.0 is responsible for such behavior
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13:17<insulfrog>hi
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13:31<luckz>also isi t normal that cargodest crashes every two minutes?
13:31-!-insulfrog_ is now known as insulfrog
13:31<insulfrog>I havn't tried it so I don't know
13:32<insulfrog>does it bring up any error messages when the game crashes?
13:32<Combuster>last time I tried (few months ago) it worked for three hours on end
13:32<luckz>just an appcrash.
13:32<luckz>it seems to crash very often when you check up on passengers at some station
13:33<luckz>(because the menu there shows where all passengers want to go)
13:33<luckz>it crashes frequently when fiddling with basic vehicle orders
13:33<[wito]>luckz: cargodest or cargodist?
13:33<luckz>I *think* cargodest.
13:33<[wito]>what revision did you patch against?
13:34<luckz>I downloaded builds from the forums.
13:34<luckz>the last time I played, dunno, it didn't say.
13:34<luckz>this is .. 16183
13:34<[wito]>then it's cargodIst
13:34<[wito]>I heard it's buggy sometimes
13:35<luckz>true. the patcher said cargodest, but linked to cargodist.
13:37<luckz>( http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=41832 )
13:37<luckz>does cargodest only work with rather old builds or what?
13:40<[wito]>15710
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14:17<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16280 /trunk/src/terraform_gui.cpp:
14:17<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Fix (r13731): crash after using the 'Reset landscape' function
14:17<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Fix: remove all waypoint signs and buoys after resetting landscape
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14:37<[wito]>SmatZ: shouldn't buyous be retained?
14:39<@SmatZ>[wito]: no
14:39<@SmatZ>you can't build them in SE
14:40<[wito]>as they don't appear to be player owned, maybe you should be able to?
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14:43<luckz>yeah it's damn crashy.
14:43<luckz>just made it crash 7 times.
14:44<@petern>buyous?
14:44<@petern>that's crazy spelling, especially as it's already on screen...
14:45-!-[com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
14:46<luckz>:P
14:46<TrueBrain>who knows how to read CGA 0xb8000 memory? :)
14:47<[com]buster>I do :)
14:47<TrueBrain>as I fail to convert it to a 8bpp format :(
14:48<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16281 /trunk/src/win32.cpp: -Fix: silence some of compile farm warnings for target win9x
14:48<[com]buster>you want to get vga text or?
14:48<TrueBrain>I have a CGA 4 colour output program
14:48<TrueBrain>which written something to 0xb8000
14:48<@SmatZ>how many bits does it use? 2 per pixel?
14:48<TrueBrain>I want to convert that to a SDL pixel buffer (so a lineair 8bpp)
14:49<TrueBrain>4 colours .. I can only guess 2 bits ;)
14:49<@SmatZ>it's possible it's coded in some really strange way ;)
14:49<[com]buster>and interleaved :/
14:49<tux_mark_5>you could write simple loop to do that
14:49<TrueBrain>there is somthing with bitplanes, but I have a hard time finding any real data on it :(
14:49<@SmatZ>yeah, like interleaved :)
14:49<[com]buster>0022446611335577
14:49<TrueBrain>yup
14:50<[com]buster>I got a nice book on that (and more)
14:50-!-maristo [~maristo@host217-114-156-151.pppoe.mark-itt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:50<TrueBrain>google is worthless for such queris
14:50<TrueBrain>I wish I had books on it :)
14:50<TrueBrain>[com]buster: you are sure it is arranged like that? No 0x2000 shift
14:50<TrueBrain>?
14:50<[com]buster>http://www.osdever.net/FreeVGA/vga/vga.htm
14:51<[wito]>petern: you'll have to exuse me, drunk I'm bit a
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14:51<tux_mark_5>does anyone know how grf conflicts "work" in openttd?
14:51<Combuster>oh wait
14:51<Combuster>I messed up planar and single shift mode :(
14:52<planetmaker>tux_mark_5, yes
14:52<[wito]>tux_mark_5: last I checked, a conflict meant that behaviour when using both was ill defined
14:52<Combuster>first plane goes 001122338899aabb
14:52<Combuster>second goes 44556677ccddeeff
14:52<TrueBrain>what an idiotic coding :s
14:52<tux_mark_5>i know what conflict is
14:52<tux_mark_5>but openttd has dynamic engine pool
14:52<Combuster>guess what the EGA did
14:52<@petern>mmm, planar
14:52<tux_mark_5>which shouldn't let any conflicts happen in the first place
14:52<Combuster>each bit of a pixel went in a different memory chip
14:53<planetmaker>tux_mark_5, but if different grfs modify the basecosts - you're screwed, as there's only one base cost value
14:53<planetmaker>or you have to live with partially rediculous prices
14:53<tux_mark_5>so why each engine can't have separete structs for base costs?
14:53<planetmaker>either way too low or high or whatever
14:53-!-ctibor [~ctibor@gprs6.vodafone.cz] has joined #openttd
14:53<planetmaker>tux_mark_5, BASE cost
14:53<@petern>some grfs specifically conflict with other grfs, instead of using grm to allocate vehicles
14:53<tux_mark_5>*separate
14:54<@petern>so engine pool or not won't help that
14:54<planetmaker>as opposed to INDIVIUAL cost
14:54<tux_mark_5>each GRF, as far as I know, modifies only original set
14:54<@petern>eh, most :p
14:54<tux_mark_5>so a copy of original grf can be kept for each change
14:54<tux_mark_5>this way each GRF would have it's "virtual base"
14:54<@petern>dbset ecs extension, for example, modifies dbset...
14:55<planetmaker>and how do add-on grfs then know which to modify?
14:55<tux_mark_5>well, that's crap then
14:55<tux_mark_5>xD
14:55<Combuster>TrueBrain: got a link to the book: http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1698.asp
14:55<@SmatZ>planetmaker: hardcoded ;)
14:55<Ammler>planetmaker: they do actually.
14:55<@petern>tux_mark_5, no, you misunderstand :)
14:55<Combuster>(includes PDF downloads)
14:55<planetmaker>SmatZ, yeah. Let's introduce also magic numbers again :)
14:56<TrueBrain>Combuster: cool :) But I was just hoping for some simple copy/paste code to use :p
14:56<tux_mark_5>could you elaborate?
14:56<TrueBrain>ghehehee :)
14:56<@petern>dynamic engine pool works as expected, vehicles are allocated as and when
14:56<@petern>but some grfs specifically disable themselves if another grf is active
14:56<Combuster>TB: if you want BASIC code... :)
14:56<TrueBrain>Combuster: anything is fine by me
14:56<TrueBrain>as this is driving me crazy :)
14:56<tux_mark_5>i saw that inside NARS2
14:56<Combuster>I don't have single-shift reading, but you could adapt the planar reading
14:57<tux_mark_5>38 * 9 07 88 04 \7GG 50 4E FF 00 BA
14:57*Combuster goes finding links
14:57<@petern>we don't prevent it being disabled, because there are plenty of other reasons for grfs to disable themselves
14:57<@petern>if all vehicle sets migrated to using grm then it would be fine
14:57<tux_mark_5>GRM ?
14:58<@petern>on the other hand, it wasn't really designed to support loading multiple sets. that was just a byproduct of allowing more vehicle types
14:58<tux_mark_5>well, grf's could be loaded to a tree-like structure
14:58<tux_mark_5>which could be specified by the user
14:59<tux_mark_5>this way user could select which grf has which base
14:59<Combuster>TB: http://dimensionalrift.homelinux.net/combuster/mos3/?p=viewsource&file=/modules/test_gfx.bas and http://dimensionalrift.homelinux.net/combuster/mos3/?p=viewsource&file=/modules/vga_io.bas
14:59<tux_mark_5>this way there could be multiple bases
14:59<tux_mark_5>and no pricing screw-up
14:59<@petern>base costs are another matter
15:00<tux_mark_5>the current GRF format is quite "dumm" in my opinion
15:00<@petern>you're welcome to your opinion, even if it's wrong.
15:00<[wito]>Why is it that planes can't crash on takeoff?
15:01<tux_mark_5>well, i don't see any reason why grf couldn't specify it's own base prices
15:01<@petern>they're magic
15:01<@SmatZ>it'd be too realistic
15:01<tux_mark_5>without using default
15:01<@petern>tux_mark_5, because base costs cover more than just vehicle base costs
15:01<[wito]>because as I understand it, most aircraft crashes actually happen on takeoff
15:01-!-ctibor [~ctibor@gprs6.vodafone.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:01<tux_mark_5>but still, if each GRF had it's own, then there would be no such problem
15:02<tux_mark_5>mayeb
15:02<tux_mark_5>not sure
15:02<[wito]>followed closely by landing, with in-flight crashes being on the order of < 10%
15:02<tux_mark_5>;D
15:02<@petern>if each grf had its own, which base cost would you use for terraforming?
15:02<tux_mark_5>which has highest priority ;D
15:02<[wito]>and 7% crash risk seems way to high anyway
15:03*planetmaker reads up on GRM.
15:03<[wito]>oh, 0.07%
15:03<Ammler>tux_mark_5: you aren't the first, trying to get that.
15:03<tux_mark_5>probably
15:03<tux_mark_5>just wondering why better format hasn't been developed
15:04<tux_mark_5>still, current GRF is hard to read, hard to edit and it's quite limited
15:04<[wito]>tux_mark_5: start your own project
15:04<[wito]>NewNewGRF. :P
15:04<planetmaker>tux_mark_5, then make a "better" implementation which covers all cases and retains backward compatibility
15:04<tux_mark_5>I could ;D
15:04<@petern>or continue one of the several "attempts"
15:04<planetmaker>tux_mark_5, you're quite wrong on "quite limited" :)
15:05<tux_mark_5>32 goto labels are quite limited
15:05-!-maristo [~maristo@host217-114-156-151.pppoe.mark-itt.net] has joined #openttd
15:05<tux_mark_5>and writing in something like hex editor is quite limited too
15:05<tux_mark_5>even assembler has better syntax
15:05<Ammler>well, chain the basecost per grf would maybe break 2 grfs and fix issue of 50 other grfs.
15:05<+glx>labels are reusable IIRC
15:05<@petern>32 is more than i'd ever need
15:06<tux_mark_5>probably
15:06<planetmaker>640kB is more than enough.
15:06*planetmaker hides
15:06<tux_mark_5>but if systems imposes some sort of limitations it means that it can be improved
15:06<tux_mark_5>and that the code isn't perfect
15:06*petern ponders fixing the stupid solution once and for all and removing the capability of loading multiple sets together
15:06-!-ctibor [~ctibor@gprs6.vodafone.cz] has joined #openttd
15:06<planetmaker>:(
15:07<tux_mark_5>but the simplest solution would be to load GRF's into some sort of tree
15:07<+glx>tux_mark_5: most newgrf limits are ttdpatch limits
15:07<tux_mark_5>with multiple bases
15:07<@petern>actually i think the 32 limit was removed
15:07<@petern>not that you'd need 32
15:07<tux_mark_5>good then ;)
15:08<@petern>if you do, you're doing it wrong
15:08<tux_mark_5>i am not creating my own grfs
15:08<tux_mark_5>the limit was just an observation
15:08<@petern>well then you have no idea
15:08<planetmaker>there _is_ a limit on the number of newgrfs. Just saw it the other day in the German forums where a guy added ALL newgrfs in our #openttdcoop pack - and then complained
15:08-!-maristo [~maristo@host217-114-156-151.pppoe.mark-itt.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:08<tux_mark_5>:D
15:08<tux_mark_5>i want them all xD
15:08<+glx>planetmaker: there's a limit on file handlers
15:09*fjb votes for introducing a 16 (or 32) bit cost variable in the next GRF spec.
15:09-!-Zahl [~Zahl@g226197010.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: *schiel*]
15:09<@petern>fjb, precisely
15:09<planetmaker>glx, the error message was something like "too many grf files" though. But so what...?
15:09<tux_mark_5>i don't like limits, if there is some sort of limit in my code I tend to remove it by rewriting the whole code ;D
15:09<Ammler>fjb: and how is that backwards compatible?
15:09<planetmaker>for that, too :)
15:09<[wito]>Ammler: you don't always need backwards compatible
15:09<tux_mark_5>you still have like 99+ of action codes
15:10<[wito]>sometimes you can simply sniff for the format
15:10<@petern>tux_mark_5, int64 gives you a limit. it's a big limit, but it's still a limit...
15:10<fjb>Ammler: It doesn't break anything and is the only clean solution.
15:10<Ammler>I don't, just someone else wanted :-)
15:10<tux_mark_5>well, int64 is enough for me
15:10<@petern>now make everything an int64 for ... future need
15:10<tux_mark_5>but there exist things like bignum and other libs which handle
15:10<planetmaker>there's no need for new grfs to be loaded with old programmes. But old grfs should still be loadable.
15:10<tux_mark_5>bigger numbers
15:10<[wito]>replacing the current rather arbitrary file format with, say, and XML and PNG gzipped up into a neat bundle format and sniffing the first 2-4 bytes of a .grf would enable one to simply add a if-else
15:10<@petern>and then watch performance suck and memory usage creep
15:11<tux_mark_5>planetmaker: i agree
15:11<fjb>Try putting an IPv6 address into a 64bit variable...
15:11<tux_mark_5>memcpy saves the day
15:11<tux_mark_5>;D
15:11<Ammler>fjb: well, you "could" copy BASE*cost to that, if it doesn't exist in the grf you load.
15:11<[wito]>corollary: XML is like violnce
15:11<[wito]>violence
15:11<@petern>if it's not working you're not using enough?
15:11<[wito]>if it doesn't solve all your problems, you aren't using enough
15:12<tux_mark_5>[wito]: XML would be like a dream compared to current HEX tragedy
15:12<fjb>Ammler: But just copying the base cost would still limit the price spread of that grf.
15:12<tux_mark_5>it doesn't have to be even XML
15:12<@petern>tee hee
15:12<@petern>xml
15:12<@petern>tee hee
15:12<@SmatZ>tux_mark_5: feel free to code a XML->GRF compiler
15:13<tux_mark_5>i know i know ;D
15:13<tux_mark_5>assembly or basic would be nicer than
15:13<tux_mark_5>current *thing*
15:13<@petern>tux_mark_5, do you, by any chance, hand code executable object dumps?
15:13<tux_mark_5>i could write
15:13<tux_mark_5>xml->grf
15:13<[wito]>point is; one doesn't want an XML compiler
15:13<tux_mark_5>but i'm not a huge fan of XML
15:13<@petern>shame that nobody's written a fully capable compile for grf...
15:13<[wito]>one wants to `gzip -9 -o myproject.grf myproject/`
15:14<tux_mark_5>python (or any other) script could do it
15:14<[wito]>where myproject/ contains nfo.grfml and sprites.png
15:14<tux_mark_5>oh
15:14<tux_mark_5>you mean that
15:14<tux_mark_5>well, I could write a compiler
15:15<tux_mark_5>because I've been writing various scripting languages for ages
15:15<Ammler>no, you can't.
15:15<tux_mark_5>and why is that?
15:15<Ammler>show us :-)
15:16<tux_mark_5>grf->xml xD ?
15:16<tux_mark_5>oh
15:16<tux_mark_5>it has to be opposite
15:16<tux_mark_5>xD
15:16<tux_mark_5>anyway, the point is
15:16<@SmatZ>there is grf->html already
15:16<tux_mark_5>when you have a good parser it isn't hard to code simple compiler
15:16<[wito]>the xml could contain <grfscript> blocks written in, ohidon'tknow squirrel?
15:17<Ammler>do not start with Action0 for demo.
15:17<tux_mark_5>squirrel is slow
15:17<tux_mark_5>it's interpreted
15:17<[wito]>or just squirrel .nuts
15:17<tux_mark_5>interpreted directly
15:17<[wito]>NoAI and NoMapGen are already in squirrel
15:17<planetmaker>compile speed doesn't matter for a grf compiler / maker / whatever-means-to-create
15:17<[wito]>I don't know why one shouldn't continue the theme
15:17<tux_mark_5>well, you are right
15:17<tux_mark_5>(planetmaker)
15:18<tux_mark_5>but still
15:18<tux_mark_5>GRF could be updated to something nicer
15:18<tux_mark_5>noone uses old openttd versions anyway, so no backwards compatibility is needed
15:18<luckz>does anybody care if it's slow?
15:18<planetmaker>then you need to update it to something nicer which is at least as fast as current newgrf and offers at least their flexibility
15:18<tux_mark_5>yup
15:19<[wito]>squirrel is Fast Enough™
15:19<planetmaker>I've serious doubts you'll even come up with an idea on how to tackle that efficiently
15:19<planetmaker>:)
15:19<tux_mark_5>and that "nicer" thing could be even the same modified GRF
15:19<tux_mark_5>for example: why the hell do we need to remember all the action id's
15:19<tux_mark_5>why there can't be a normal enum for that
15:20-!-ctibor_ [~ctibor@gprs8.vodafone.cz] has joined #openttd
15:20<+glx><tux_mark_5> noone uses old openttd versions anyway, so no backwards compatibility is needed <-- but openttd didn't create newgrf specs
15:20<Hirundo>then write a bunch of #defines and feed your nfo through the C preprocessor or something similar
15:21-!-PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-209-23.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
15:21<PeterT>hi
15:21-!-ctibor [~ctibor@gprs6.vodafone.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:21<DaleStan><tux_mark_5> why there can't be a normal enum for [action numbers] <-- There can. Use the "// Escapes:" line.
15:21<tux_mark_5>Hirundo: i had just the same idea
15:21<tux_mark_5>;D
15:21<tux_mark_5>so the question is: why do we stick to old GRF-like syntax?
15:21<+glx>because it exists and it's used
15:22<tux_mark_5>and is it so hard to create something better?
15:22<+glx>and hope for a conversion of all existing grfs ?
15:22<Ammler>seems so.
15:22<DaleStan>Why don't you give it a try, tux_mark_5?
15:22<tux_mark_5>why would we need to convert them?
15:22<tux_mark_5>openttd could handle serveral formats at the same time
15:23<tux_mark_5>while one would be "obsolete"
15:23<tux_mark_5>and other would be "nice and shiny" ;D
15:23<+glx>tux_mark_5: you seem to forgot the other newgrf interpreter
15:23<Hirundo>I would not hope for a replacement for the GRF syntax
15:23<tux_mark_5>glx: which one?
15:23<+glx>ttdpatch
15:24<+glx>all grfs are mainly written for it
15:24<tux_mark_5>that one
15:24<tux_mark_5>still, openttd could have it's native format
15:24<Ammler>why isn't it that more difficult to write a compiler than to make a new syntax?
15:24<tux_mark_5>and ttdpatch is getting superseded by openttd anyway
15:24<tux_mark_5>so ttdpach will be history soon
15:25<tux_mark_5>openttd offers more features, it's under heaver development
15:25<Ammler>-not
15:25<tux_mark_5>?
15:25<planetmaker>Ammler, is right: if you can create a new syntax and implement that, it's probably the same work, to write a compiler of something new into the old newgrf language
15:26<DaleStan>tux_mark_5: Explain why patchman is wrong here: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=406765#p406765
15:26<planetmaker>or directly into the newgrf format as is
15:26<Hirundo>Indeed, a something->nfo compiler would be more feasible
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15:27<planetmaker>and: grfcodec's source is available. Anyone could go and make adjustments.
15:28<tux_mark_5>maybe
15:28<tux_mark_5>something->nfo might be a good idea
15:28<planetmaker>DaleStan, the license would allow to even publish those, right?
15:28<tux_mark_5>this way openttd code base would be smaller
15:28<planetmaker>then go for it :)
15:28<Xaroth>why do you want to make the codebase smaller?
15:29<Xaroth>isn't the idea of adding features, that you expand it ?
15:29<DaleStan>The license for GRFCodec? Absolutely. It's GPL v2, IIRC. Or maybe "2 or any later".
15:29<tux_mark_5>well, smaller codebase of loading GRFs -> faster game
15:29<planetmaker>thx for confirming. I seeme to remember, but have not available here atm
15:29<tux_mark_5>and if NFO would be more complex, then loading big grs would take a lot of time
15:30<tux_mark_5>it's the same as
15:30<tux_mark_5>using interpreted languages vs compiled languages
15:30<tux_mark_5>;)
15:30<tux_mark_5>anyway
15:30<tux_mark_5>something needs to be done about that pricing wreckage
15:30<tux_mark_5>xD
15:31<Hirundo>I fear that *someone* will have to add this to his/her to do list...
15:32<planetmaker> /s/*someone*/tux_mark_5/
15:32<planetmaker>:)
15:32<tux_mark_5>xD
15:32<tux_mark_5>the tree thing wouldn't be too difficult to implement
15:33<tux_mark_5>the only difficult thing would be writing the UI
15:33<tux_mark_5>i guess
15:33*Hirundo doubts the validity of both statments
15:33<tux_mark_5>writing UI always makes me sick
15:33<tux_mark_5>and I'm not sure how UI API works in openttd
15:34<tux_mark_5>so that's why i *guess*
15:34<tux_mark_5>and creating some sort of tree can't be that difficult
15:34<tux_mark_5>currently all grfs are stored in some sort of a list/array/something
15:35<tux_mark_5>and on top of that list there is original engine
15:35<tux_mark_5>or even creation of "separate" lists would resolve that
15:35-!-ctibor_ [~ctibor@gprs8.vodafone.cz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
15:36<tux_mark_5>it caught my attention
15:36<tux_mark_5>can't sleep without checking openttd source first
15:36<tux_mark_5>xD
15:37<planetmaker>take care. You're opening bottles of worms
15:37<tux_mark_5>:D
15:38<luckz>what is the UI problem here?
15:38-!-ctibor [~ctibor@gprs8.vodafone.cz] has joined #openttd
15:39<tux_mark_5>problem?
15:39<dihedral>[21:32] <tux_mark_5> the tree thing wouldn't be too difficult to implement <- can you code?
15:40<PeterT>hi dihedral
15:40<tux_mark_5>of course ;D
15:40<+glx><tux_mark_5> and I'm not sure how UI API works in openttd <-- most of us don't know either ;)
15:40<PeterT>i finally got an irc client
15:40<tux_mark_5>xD
15:40<dihedral>do you know openttd source code a bit?
15:40<Xaroth>irssi?
15:40<PeterT>me
15:40<Xaroth>yes
15:40<tux_mark_5>dihedral: no i don't
15:40<tux_mark_5>i'm checking ir right now
15:40-!-Dred_furst [~Dred@resnet535.bournemouth.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:40<PeterT>Xaroth: I got xchat, it seems nice and simple
15:41<dihedral>oh - you are the peter who joins my server?
15:41<Ammler>Xaroth: he said "client" :P
15:41<Xaroth>Ammler: and irssi is?
15:41<dihedral>irssi IS a client Ammler
15:41<Xaroth>... besides 'godlike' .
15:41<Ammler>:-D
15:42-!-Dred_furst [~Dred@resnet535.bournemouth.ac.uk] has joined #openttd
15:44<luckz>irssi is the only client.
15:44<tux_mark_5>mostly
15:44<tux_mark_5>;D
15:44<tux_mark_5>i like it too
15:44<tux_mark_5>but i don't use it
15:45<tux_mark_5>xD
15:45<luckz>admittedly some parts of the reconnection/rejoining routines are moronic and broken.
15:45<Xaroth>reconnecting routines is a bit messy at times
15:47-!-Dred_furst [~Dred@resnet535.bournemouth.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:47<Xaroth>hmm, star trek on tv, code on the main screen... think my geek level increased a notch..
15:47<PeterT>dihedral: yes, im the peter that joined your server
15:47-!-oskari89 [oskari89@88.193.124.243] has joined #openttd
15:48<PeterT>dehidral: do you have any control over the maps that the game generates?
15:48<PeterT>dehidral: lately they've been very strange
15:48-!-Dred_furst [~Dred@resnet535.bournemouth.ac.uk] has joined #openttd
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15:51<Muxy>Hello
15:52<PeterT>hi
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15:57<insulfrog>bbl
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16:10<planetmaker>gah. how nice. turned on a lab computer. First thing which happens upon login: crash of temp1.exe.
16:10<planetmaker>what? temp1.exe?
16:10<TinoDidriksen>Worm infestation?
16:10<planetmaker>next thing: zone alarm detects two trojans on the computer: temp1.exe and another...
16:10<planetmaker>yes!
16:11<TinoDidriksen>Lab computers running with admin rights?
16:11<planetmaker>sure :P
16:12<TinoDidriksen>Ew
16:12<TinoDidriksen>Anyway, nightly reimaging is good.
16:13<planetmaker>would make sense, yes :S
16:13<planetmaker>the computer was alright as long as I had it under supervision... alas...
16:13<PeterT>openttd 0.7.1 RC1 is out
16:13<planetmaker>other people started to play with it :(
16:13<planetmaker>PeterT, I think people here know that :P
16:13<PeterT>ok
16:14<planetmaker>there's a bot which announces commits to openttd :)
16:14<PeterT>in this IRC?
16:14<planetmaker>in this IRC
16:15<PeterT>ok i didnt see it :D
16:16<planetmaker><DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r16279 /tags/0.7.1-RC1 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2009-05-11 15:45:50 UTC)
16:16<planetmaker><DorpsGek> -Release: 0.7.1-RC1
16:17<PeterT>planetmaker: good that you copy and pasted it, but it doesnt make a difference now....
16:17-!-ctibor_ [~ctibor@gprs8.vodafone.cz] has joined #openttd
16:18<@petern>@openttd commit 16279
16:18<@DorpsGek>petern: Commit by rubidium :: r16279 /tags/0.7.1-RC1 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2009-05-11 15:45:50 UTC)
16:18<@DorpsGek>petern: -Release: 0.7.1-RC1
16:18<@petern>spam ;s
16:18<PeterT>@openttd commit
16:18<@DorpsGek>PeterT: Commit by smatz :: r16281 trunk/src/win32.cpp (2009-05-11 18:48:05 UTC)
16:18<@DorpsGek>PeterT: -Fix: silence some of compile farm warnings for target win9x
16:19<PeterT>what is commit?
16:19<PeterT>updates?
16:19-!-batti5_ [~batti5@92.84.6.153] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:20<PeterT>what does "IPv4" mean?
16:20-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:21-!-ctibor [~ctibor@gprs8.vodafone.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:23<frosch123>ipv4 is uncool old crap, no need to bother about it :)
16:23<PeterT>ok
16:23-!-ctibor_ [~ctibor@gprs8.vodafone.cz] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
16:23<PeterT>was just looking at openttd.org
16:23<PeterT>frosch123: are you an openttd dev?
16:24-!-Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db00731.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Quit: gn8]
16:24<frosch123>PeterT: http://whatismyipv6.net/ <- will tell you whether you are using old ipv4 or new ipv6
16:24<frosch123>the rest knows wikipedia :p
16:25<PeterT>ok
16:25<frosch123>if it tells you "As you are accessing this site through a IPv4 address, some advanced IPv6 features might not be available", you are doomed :p
16:25<SpComb>your internet connection will suddenly stop working in two or three years time
16:26<PeterT>do i need to know anything about ipv4/ipv6?
16:26-!-ctibor [~ctibor@gprs8.vodafone.cz] has joined #openttd
16:26<+glx>not for now :)
16:26<PeterT>will it really stop working?
16:27<SpComb>address space exhaustion
16:27<SpComb>the internet will instantaneously break and everyone goes back to the stone age
16:27<SpComb>do not pass go, do not collect 200$
16:27<PeterT>sure....
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16:31<@Belugas>[15:06] <tux_mark_5> just wondering why better format hasn't been developed <-- because you were not there to show us how crap all thses lines of codes and all those specs are. We bow in front of you are awaiting Enlightment from Thee , Ho Our Saviour
16:31<PeterT>@openttd commit
16:31<@DorpsGek>PeterT: Commit by smatz :: r16281 trunk/src/win32.cpp (2009-05-11 18:48:05 UTC)
16:31<@DorpsGek>PeterT: -Fix: silence some of compile farm warnings for target win9x
16:31<frosch123>Belugas: don't take it too personal :)
16:32*SmatZ loves highlights :)
16:32<frosch123>PeterT: it is more interesting if you append a number at the end
16:32<@SmatZ>hehe
16:32<PeterT>does "@openttd commit" automatically send updates or just every time enter the command?
16:33<@Belugas>[15:14] <tux_mark_5> [wito]: XML would be like a dream compared to current HEX tragedy <--- Why ThE HELL have we not though about that before :S !!!
16:33<frosch123>PeterT: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/date/2009-05-11 <- take a look what CIA-3 told you today
16:33<PeterT>where?
16:34<PeterT>what page?
16:34<frosch123>the whole day
16:34<PeterT>the whole thing?
16:34<@SmatZ>@openttd commit 15024
16:34<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Commit by rubidium :: r15024 /branches/noai/src (6 files in 3 dirs) (2009-01-12 16:28:01 UTC)
16:34<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: [NoAI] -Cleanup: remove some hacks
16:34<@SmatZ>for example
16:35<+glx>Belugas: no need to re-explain ;)
16:35<@SmatZ>if you know what you are searching for :)
16:35<PeterT>@openttd commit 0.7.0
16:35<@DorpsGek>PeterT: Invalid arguments for _commit.
16:35<@Belugas>frosch123, it's just pissing me so much to read so mcu stupidity in so little time
16:35<PeterT>@openttd commit r12345
16:35<@DorpsGek>PeterT: Invalid arguments for _commit.
16:35<frosch123>PeterT: http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/ <- you can also play there, does not highlight us :)
16:36<planetmaker>:)
16:36<+glx>you can do it in private with the bot too
16:36<PeterT>hmmm frosch " (svn r16274) -Fix: Disable multitile houses for which the newgrf does not define proper additional tiles. (instead of crashing later):
16:37<frosch123>Belugas: Then take a piece of paper, write down what you think the discussion will end with, and enjoy watching whether your prophecy takes place :)
16:37<+glx>too easy :)
16:37<frosch123>I guess there are at least 5 outcomes :)
16:38<@Belugas>ho... i dson't hav the intention to lift the smallest finger on the issue :)
16:40<Xaroth>PeterT: don't add the r infront of the revision..
16:40<Xaroth>and do it in private
16:40<PeterT>sorry, im new at irc
16:40<PeterT>how might i make a private message
16:41<Xaroth>/msg DorpsGek @openttd commit 12345
16:41<PeterT>no reply?
16:41<+glx>@ is not needed in private
16:41<Xaroth>then without the @.
16:42<PeterT>oh, he PMed back
16:42-!-rellig [~quassel@vs248136.vserver.de] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
16:42<PeterT>i thought it would show in this window, instead of opening another one
16:42<Xaroth>no, that's the whole essence of a Private Message
16:43<PeterT>ok
16:43<PeterT>i meant like <Private:DorpsGek> ....................
16:44-!-ctibor_ [~ctibor@gprs7.vodafone.cz] has joined #openttd
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16:46<Azrael->If you want to show in this window, just use /notice instead of /msg
16:47<PeterT>hmm doesnt work
16:47<+glx>Azrael-: DorpsGek doesn't reply to notice :)
16:47<PeterT>"/notice openttd commit 0.7.0
16:47<+glx>0.7.0 is not a valid revision number
16:48<PeterT>whats the revision number for 0.7.0?
16:50<+glx>15913
16:50<PeterT>how do you find that out?
16:51<+glx>use the force ;)
16:51<tux_mark_5>;D
16:52<PeterT>meh
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16:56<@SmatZ>ctibor__: GPRS is a wired technology used to have stable connection to internet, right? :-p
16:57<+glx>GPRS is wireless
16:57<@SmatZ>I was joking ;)
16:57<@SmatZ>about 10 reconnects in last hour ;)
16:58<@SmatZ>hmm vodafone... internet censorship...
16:58<ctibor__>SmatZ: Yeah, curse them...
16:58<@SmatZ>sorry :(
16:58<ctibor__>SmatZ: But half of the reconnects were my reboots :-)
16:59<+glx>maybe he's at the junction of 2 relays
17:00<ctibor__>i have gprs modem sticked to openwrt and sometimes the modem just lose PIN number
17:01<@SmatZ>interesting
17:01<ctibor__>annoying I say
17:01<@Belugas>PIN ? Someone said PIN?
17:01<@SmatZ>haha
17:02<@Belugas>where's the Pad??
17:02<@Belugas>which encryption management??
17:02<+glx>Belugas: go home :)
17:02<@Belugas>lol
17:02<@Belugas>right i should ;)
17:02*ctibor__ hides :-)
17:02<PeterT>whats the difference between nightlies and trunk?
17:03<+glx>none when nightlies are compiled
17:03<PeterT>oh
17:03<PeterT>ok
17:04-!-Exl [~myself@cp1224652-a.roemd1.lb.home.nl] has quit [Quit: Bitches.]
17:05<@SmatZ>???? @ http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=43551
17:05<@SmatZ>now earning real money in OTTD! (?)
17:05<PeterT>wth?
17:05<PeterT>what is that topic?
17:05<frosch123>PeterT: http://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_OpenTTD_versions <- it is quite impressive what you can find on the wiki :)
17:05<PeterT>i love the wiki
17:06<PeterT>but the wiki search is sort of limited
17:06<+glx>SmatZ: I guess he wants to transfer money to another company
17:06<PeterT>sometimes i search something
17:06<frosch123>SmatZ: nice idea, we should offer converting 1 euro into 1000 ingame dollars :)
17:06<PeterT>and its not there
17:06<@SmatZ>:-)
17:06-!-Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x3ef3a188.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
17:06-!-mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
17:07<+glx>@seen Bjarni
17:07<@DorpsGek>glx: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 0 hours, 14 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: single step?
17:07<@SmatZ>glx: seems so, but he's in very wrong section :-x
17:07<@Bjarni>?
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>double-highlight?
17:07<@Bjarni>now that's an interesting greeting :s
17:07<@SmatZ>hello Mr. Corfitzen
17:07-!-Azrael- [~azraeluk@cpc4-papw2-0-0-cust778.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:08<@Bjarni>that's better :)
17:08<+glx>evening Bjarni :)
17:08<Eddi|zuHause># if i had just one more day
17:08<Eddi|zuHause># i would tell you how much i missed you
17:08<Eddi|zuHause># since you were away
17:09<Eddi|zuHause># oooh it's dangerous, but so am i
17:09<Eddi|zuHause># to try and turn back time
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>(that is really one of the greatest songs of all times)
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>(after listening to it 200 times, it still gives me the chills)
17:13<@Belugas>night all
17:13<PeterT>good night
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17:21<TrueBrain>Combuster: I found my problem ......... I was reading the mmory all the time correct, but I fucked up the handling of the 'test' command ;)
17:21<TrueBrain>so writing was corrupted ... :$
17:21<TrueBrain>tnx again for your time :)
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17:22<@SmatZ>I am quite impressed of Combuster being such ASM-pro ;)
17:23-!-KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-250-114.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:23<Combuster>thanks :)
17:23<Combuster>and no problem
17:23<Combuster>er SmatZ: why ASM pro?
17:23<frosch123>reminds me about Ralf Brown's interrupt list :)
17:24<@SmatZ>and frosch123! :)
17:24*SmatZ is happy being here :)
17:24<TrueBrain>I think SmatZ is on those pills again :p
17:24*Combuster bows to the holy list
17:24<@SmatZ>Combuster: frosch123: not many people know about CGA (or even how it works!) ... or about RBIL! ;)
17:24<@SmatZ>:-(
17:24<frosch123>yes, SmatZ, I also belong to those who started their own OS at the age of 13
17:25<TrueBrain>frosch123: you ever finished it? :p
17:25<Combuster>nobody does
17:25<Combuster>:)
17:25<@SmatZ>hehehe @ frosch123 :)
17:25<TrueBrain>:)
17:25<@SmatZ>:-D
17:25<@SmatZ>same here :(
17:25<Combuster>neither did I (yet)
17:25<Combuster>still
17:25<@SmatZ>:-D
17:25<Combuster>got 2D acceleration
17:25<frosch123>it took me one year to discover that my assembler translated LIDT incorrect :(
17:25<Combuster>which is something few others managed
17:25<@SmatZ>:(
17:25<@SmatZ>:)
17:26<Combuster>And why is #openttd suddenly looking like #osdev
17:26*Combuster senses an invasion
17:26<TrueBrain>why not? :)
17:26<@SmatZ>:-)
17:26<@Bjarni>Combuster: because everybody here cares for quality coding XD
17:26<TrueBrain>WHIIIIIIIIIIIiiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
17:27<TrueBrain>I have an animated cat walking over my screen :)
17:27<@SmatZ>:-D
17:27<TrueBrain>I can do 16bit -> C! :)
17:27<@SmatZ>gratz TrueBrain!
17:27<Aali>mov cr3, 0
17:27<Aali>someone's OS just died
17:27<@SmatZ>remember to run your IRC client out of ring0 ;)
17:28<Aali>fortunately my OS was microkernel-based, so I had very little code in ring0 :P
17:28<@SmatZ>:o)
17:28<@SmatZ>your OS?
17:29-!-kkb110 [~kkb110@c-68-82-181-52.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
17:29<Aali>this is #osdev, no?
17:29<Aali>:P
17:29<@SmatZ>not at OFTC it I guess :-x
17:30<@SmatZ>yes at freenode ;)
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>why is Rubidium not here, anyway?
17:32-!-ecke_ [~ecke@213.195.202.11] has quit [Quit: ecke_]
17:32<@SmatZ>too much noobness
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>someone should do a sociological study: people who quit IRC get more active in the forums
17:33<@SmatZ>:o)
17:33<Prof_Frink>someone should do a sociological study: people who quit IRC get a life
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>i cannot support that statement
17:33<frosch123>is there a life beyond the internet?
17:33<@SmatZ>no
17:33<Prof_Frink>frosch123: I've heard rumours.
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>i quit IRC for like 6 weeks, and everything just spiraled downwards
17:34*frosch123 assumes everyone knows the picture linked from belugas' signature
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's like saying "people who quit smoking get better health"
17:35<@SmatZ>:-D
17:35<Prof_Frink>Belugas' whatnow?
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>which might be correct for the 2% of people who actually manage to permanently quit
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>but the other 98% just fall back
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>(what's the correct english term for that?)
17:36<Prof_Frink>Give up giving up.
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>(german is too logical in assembling words for new meanings, i can never figure out what illogical words the other languages invent for that)
17:37-!-Hirundo [~chatzilla@5355F5FD.cable.casema.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]]
17:37<frosch123>"In Berlin haben rund 200 Milchbäuerinnen ihr Nachtlager direkt vor dem Kanzleramt aufgeschlagen." <- the female form gives it some different interpretation...
17:37-!-[com]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
17:37<Prof_Frink>nacht lager, drink proper beer.
17:37<Prof_Frink>That's all I got from that.
17:38-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-86-24-144-96.winn.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>like, if wool grows on a tree, it's called tree-wool (Baumwolle)
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>other languages invent totally unrelated names like "cotton"
17:38<Prof_Frink>Wool doesn't grow in trees.
17:38<Prof_Frink>Trees grow in Wool.
17:39<frosch123>but the news are flawed today anyway. another one reported about a girl which got attacked at school and was slightly injured at her hand, but managed to *drag*herself to the secretary :s
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>i heard something about them trying to reattach the girl's thumb
17:40<Brianetta>but Eddie, it's not wool
17:40<Brianetta>Wool is an animal product
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>so i'm not sure what's considered "slightly injured"
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: who says that?
17:40<Prof_Frink>No, it's a place near Winfrith.
17:41-!-fonsinchen [~alve@BAEc4a0.bae.pppool.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta: there's all kinds of wool in german. some not remotely related to animals
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>"Glaswolle" for example
17:42<Prof_Frink>Wire wool.
17:42<PeterT>how do you make a "goto nearest depot order"?
17:42-!-sigmund [~sigmund@91.80-202-245.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd
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17:42<frosch123>click on the dropdown next to "goto"
17:43<@Bjarni>hello Brianetta
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17:43<@Bjarni>hello Brianett1
17:43<PeterT>yeah?
17:43-!-Brianett1 is now known as Brianetta
17:43<PeterT>i see, thank you
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>the dropdown that allows conditional orders, i presume
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17:46<PeterT>what is conditional orders?
17:47<frosch123>ask the wiki
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17:49<Eddi|zuHause>i (still) have a feature request: when starting from a station, first check the next order to be executed, and if that jumps back to the order where it started from, do not leave from the station
17:50<frosch123>that breaks selfregulating networks
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>but it allows "leave when load is over 50%"
17:51<@Bjarni>I don't get the idea behind that feature request
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: assume an order list:
17:52<frosch123>Bjarni: you know about conditional orders?
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>1: go to station A
17:52<PeterT>http://wiki.openttd.org/Main_Page
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>2: if load < 50%, jump to 1
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>3: if load = 100%, jump to 5
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>4: go to station B
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>5: go to station C
17:53<@petern>if owner = Eddi|zuHause, breakdown
17:53<@Bjarni>:P
17:53<Xaroth>lol
17:53<@Bjarni>I get the idea now
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>petern: that's fine, as i play with breakdowns off anyway :p
17:53<@petern>if owner = Eddi|zuHause, turn breakdowns on and breakdown
17:53<@petern>:p
17:54<@Bjarni>if (owner == Eddi|zuHause) this.Derail();
17:54<@Bjarni>and we will implement Derail just for you
17:55<Prof_Frink>petern: You should know that under certain circumstances vehicles can break down even with breakdowns off.
17:55<PeterT>does bringing stuff from an idustry increase it
17:55<PeterT>production
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17:56<Eddi|zuHause>depends on the industry
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17:56<PeterT>iron ore
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>primary industries have a higher chance on increasing production when servicing over 70%
17:57<PeterT>or a farm
17:57<@Bjarni>I think it does
17:57<PeterT>ok
17:57<@Bjarni>actually I'm sure it does
17:57<frosch123>PeterT: http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics <- that applies to default industries, if you do not use newgrfs
17:57<@Bjarni>well odds are that it will
17:57<@Bjarni>but there is an amount of randomness
17:57<PeterT>nope, im on ! megas europe map classic
17:58<KingJ>Incidentally, is it actually possible to get any score on "Minimum profit of vehicles at least two years old" when playing a reasonably sized game? I can max all the others easily, but never that one
17:59<frosch123>KingJ: activate inflation
17:59<KingJ>Ah, I play with it off because it skews profit tracking
17:59<PeterT>what about if its a very high production, and you dont use it, then it goes low and you use it, will it go back up?
18:00<@Bjarni>maybe
18:00<frosch123>KingJ: everyone knows that the score is silly :)
18:01<@SmatZ>10000 is too much?
18:01<@Bjarni>PeterT: industries don't have a history of how they used to be. They only know current production and how much you transport
18:01<@SmatZ>even without inflation...
18:01<frosch123>SmatZ: the 10000 is not affected by inflation
18:01<@SmatZ>frosch123: yeah, I don't understand your point :)
18:01<PeterT>ok
18:01<@Bjarni>peterT: aim at as much as possible and it will likely increase in production
18:01<frosch123>try to make 10000 profit with a truck
18:02<@SmatZ>frosch123: trains only here :-/
18:02<PeterT>with valuables
18:02<@SmatZ>but I get you now, thanks :)
18:02<frosch123>SmatZ: to become tycoon you need all vehicle types
18:02<@SmatZ>really?
18:02-!-Cybertinus|0068646 is now known as Cybertinus
18:02<frosch123>actually, no idea :)
18:02<KingJ>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Player_rating
18:03<KingJ>Nothing about vehicle types there
18:03<@SmatZ>I don't think so :) you just need 8 cargo types
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18:12<PeterT>i like the feature that the town grows alongside roads you build
18:12<PeterT>like a highway from a city to transfer to an airport, the house are right along the road
18:13<Xaroth>TrueBrain: that grfid reader code thingie you showed me ages ago, does that also read grf names?
18:13<TrueBrain>Xaroth: would it be named grfid if it did? :) :) :)
18:13<TrueBrain>no, it doesn't ;)
18:13<TrueBrain>ask petern if you want that :)
18:14<Xaroth>nah, no worries at this point
18:14<Xaroth>just wanted to know if it had it so i could already copy the functionality for some future blue moon
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know where your grfid-reader reads the grfid from, but reading the name afterwards should be straightforward
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18:15<+glx>if you can read grfid, you can read name :)
18:15<Xaroth>well I figgured it'd be a piece of piss
18:15<Xaroth>but I never actually looked at what I ported to C# :P
18:15<Xaroth>It just had to work
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>just keep on reading untill the next 0-byte
18:15<Xaroth>after GRFId?
18:16<+glx>yes
18:16<Xaroth>hm
18:16<Xaroth>that's more easy than i thought it'd be :P
18:16<+glx>look for action 8 in grf spec
18:16<TrueBrain>just make sure to test for weird grfs
18:16<TrueBrain>(so don't assume a \0 ;))
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18:18<frosch123>Xaroth: and if you then read on until the second \0 you will get the description :) but note that there are lots of newgrfs out there who do not manage to properly terminate them with \0 :)
18:19<Xaroth>frosch123: I think getting grf name would be more than enough for an updater app..
18:19<frosch123>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action8 <- anyway, so you actualy know what you are doing :p
18:21<Xaroth>hm, interesting stuffs
18:21<Xaroth>most useless for AutoTTD, but interesting nontheless
18:27<TrueBrain>night all!
18:27<TrueBrain>Combuster: I have alleycat begin-screen working, native 32bit linux app :p
18:27<TrueBrain>tnx again :)
18:28<Xaroth>nn TB
18:34<PeterT>good night
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19:51<PeterT>@openttd commit
19:51<@DorpsGek>PeterT: Commit by smatz :: r16281 trunk/src/win32.cpp (2009-05-11 18:48:05 UTC)
19:51<@DorpsGek>PeterT: -Fix: silence some of compile farm warnings for target win9x
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19:53<@SmatZ>PeterT: you will hardly make development faster this way :-p
19:53<@petern>Belugas?
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20:04<Ammler>tschüssli
20:07<@Belugas>i might give it a try senor peter!
20:07*Belugas runs downstairs
20:07*PeterT asks if its working
20:07*PeterT says "ok, its working"
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---Logclosed Tue May 12 00:00:00 2009