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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-05-22

---Logopened Fri May 22 00:00:29 2009
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03:02-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.0, 0.7.1-RC2 | Website: * (BaNaNaS: bananas, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs, Release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only :D
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03:22<Eddi|zuHause>that's like the third netsplit in a row...
03:23<FauxFaux>Should probably move to a reliable network like freenode.
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03:27-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.0, 0.7.1-RC2 | Website: * (BaNaNaS: bananas, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs, Release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only :D
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03:32<yorick>heh, I was op... :(
03:33<Eddi|zuHause>"in a dream world, where you were the only person on IRC"
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03:38-!-mode/#openttd [+v orudge] by ChanServ
03:38-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.0, 0.7.1-RC2 | Website: * (BaNaNaS: bananas, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs, Release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only :D
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03:54<yorick>"Okay... something went horribly wrong. I couldn't load the fallback sprite. What should I do?" <-- is that normal when joining a game?
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04:40<Sairiin>why i play online whit openttd
04:40<Sairiin>i have problem
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04:41<yorick>he sure does
04:42-!-mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
04:42-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.0, 0.7.1-RC2 | Website: * (BaNaNaS: bananas, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs, Release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only :D
04:44-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.0, 0.7.1-RC2 | Website: * (BaNaNaS: bananas, Translator: translator2, Gameservers: servers, Nightly-builds: nightly, WIKI: wiki, Dev-docs: docs, Patches & Bug-reports: bugs, Revision log: vcs, Release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only :D
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05:14<@petern>@seen rubidium
05:14<@DorpsGek>petern: rubidium was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 4 days, 13 hours, 29 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <Rubidium> TrueBrain: you shouldn't count your age with your fingers! ;)
05:16<Alberth>he wont be back until his system goes down
05:25<planetmaker>his system?
05:34<planetmaker>dbg: [sprite] Ignoring 12 unused extra bytes from the sprite from 2ccdj at position 265148 <-- for this kind of message: what's a method to find out which sprite causes this?
05:34<yorick>the sprite at position 265148, probably
05:36<planetmaker>har har har.
05:37<@petern>use a binary editor on the grf file :p
05:37<planetmaker>he... well. Is there another way?
05:37<@petern>modify the source code to tell you the nfo line
05:37<@petern>aka pseudo sprite number
05:39<planetmaker>hm... frosch told me yesterday to use grf2html in order to obtain that information. But... I don't see how...
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05:53<@petern>so does anyone else know what r11622 intended to solve?
05:55<yorick>what does it intend to do?
05:55<@petern>@openttd commit 11622
05:55<@DorpsGek>petern: Commit by rubidium :: r11622 trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp (2007-12-11 21:25:48 UTC)
05:55<@DorpsGek>petern: -Codechange: support the unicode version of the 'control' characters.
05:56<yorick>why would it need to be supported?
05:56<@petern>hence my question
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05:57<planetmaker>he... I honestly don't know either. But... I also know only small bits and pieces where this plays a role...
05:58<Hirundo>Characters in the 0xE000 series allow unicode-encoding of all characters in the 'ttd charset'
05:59<Hirundo>Even those that should show a different character according to the unicode spec (e.g. train symbol would be something different in true unicode)
06:01<@petern>you missed the point of using 0xE000
06:01<fonsinchen>Does anyone know what is twmw.grf?
06:01<@petern>it's private use area. there is no character there in 'true' unicode.
06:03<Hirundo>Point is that if you want to encode e.g. the train symbol
06:03<@petern>you use 0xE0xx
06:03<@petern>so what is r11622 about? :p
06:03<Hirundo>because 0x00B4 would, or rather should, refer to the respective unicode symbol
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06:04<Hirundo>It seems like a failed attempt to do this properly
06:04<@petern>it was done properly before 11622
06:05<Hirundo>before r11622, the 0xE0XX wasn't working according to the ttd newgrf specs, it seems
06:08<Hirundo>If I'm reading correctly, any unicode char apart from U+E0XX and U+0000-1F, should be decoded directly
06:13<planetmaker>let me see. Compiling
06:14<Hirundo>what characters are invalid, when filtering with CS_ALPHANUMERAL?
06:14<@petern>dunno but it's there for the default case
06:15<@petern>so anything from 0x20 to 0xE000-1 and then from 0xE200 up
06:16<Hirundo>well, the spec states that characters U+0000-U+001F should be treated as normal non-unicode characters 00-1F
06:17<Hirundo>} else { -> } else if (c >= 0x20) {
06:18<planetmaker>are those chars printable at all (< 0x20)?
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06:19<@petern>Hirundo, yeah, that's what i did
06:19<Hirundo>no, but some of them are control characters
06:19<@petern>so, in the spec, what happens to chars between 0xE000 and 0xE020 ?
06:19<Hirundo>SETX in ttdpatch-encoding
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06:20<@petern>1. 0xE020 - 0xE0FF are mapped to 0x00xx
06:20<@petern>and 0x0000 - 0x001F are left as is, as control code
06:20<Hirundo>Hmmm... 0xE000-E01F seems like a classic example of 'undefined behaviour'
06:21<@petern>okay, just so long as i'm not reading it wrongly
06:22<@petern>planetmaker, can you test with the if (c >= 0x20) { mod?
06:23<@petern>your ordinals should work
06:23<Alberth>planetmaker: no, some of them have visible effects (\t, \n, \r), others are audible (\a), and a whole lot more obscure ones for eq modem control
06:23<@petern>flow control :D
06:23<@petern>Alberth, the beep character makes the game lock up ;)
06:24<Alberth>fun! :p
06:24<planetmaker>ok, I'll test. I just find that my workplace computer is way slower than my laptop... :S
06:25<Alberth>yeah, I missed flow control (^S and ^Q wasn't it?)
06:25<@petern>Alberth, someone was inserting the beep character by pressing it on the keyboard
06:25<@petern>predictably, on a large map
06:26<Alberth>we should forbid the use of large maps :p
06:27<@petern>maybe pause on join needs to be tweaked
06:27<@petern>always on, for a start
06:27<@petern>but sometimes it seems its still not paused long enough
06:28<Alberth>maybe we should test connection speed, and refuse slow clients?
06:28<@petern>nah, ban large maps like you say
06:28<@petern>and especially ban that patch that allows even larger maps
06:29<planetmaker>sorry reallife. be back in a bit
06:29<@petern>no, test it, biatch!
06:30<Hirundo>I have a patch lying around that silences your real life, do you need it?
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06:35<yorick>"\a" just translates to "?"
06:38<Hirundo>what is the ascii code of \a?
06:39<Hirundo>I think outputting '?' is correct in that case
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07:46<planetmaker>petern, the patch works. At least with my testcase
07:49<planetmaker>but I guess it needs more test cases...
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08:03<@petern>good enough for me :p
08:05<CIA-3>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r16374 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Fix (r11622): Valid UTF-8 sequences between 0x20 and 0xFF should be allowed as is instead of being treated as control codes.
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08:14<yorick>shouldn't the content server protocol be versioned?
08:15<@petern>shouldn't your mum?
08:15<yorick>that's aged...
08:15<@petern>... so's your mum
08:17*eekee groans XD
08:22<z-MaTRiX>so in multiplayer players having colors other see?
08:22<z-MaTRiX>what's with people that like one color?
08:23<@SmatZ>I think you should be able to solve that question on your own :-p
08:23<eekee>I'm not so sure. There is, after all, no accounting for taste
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08:25<@petern>i'm not so sure, the question didn't make any sense
08:26<z-MaTRiX>some people would like to have white for example
08:26<z-MaTRiX>but is taken
08:27<Ammler>z-MaTRiX: there is a grf, which changes colors, maybe, you can "missuse" that
08:27<eekee>does it do black as a company colour?
08:28<@petern>what is wrong with you people
08:28<@petern>how does " so in multiplayer players having colors other see " parse a valid question?
08:28<eekee>petern: nothing. yourself? @p
08:28<@petern>+as a :s
08:29*eekee ponders how to answer this, but finds words problemactical at best, riddles to be wrestled with until some likely meaning is derived
08:29<@SmatZ>z-MaTRiX: it's taken so you have to choose different colour - simple
08:32*yorick agrees to petern
08:34<eekee>I had no idea what the question actually was, but it clearly pertained to players' choices of colour and some complaint therin, and so I felt safe in sayign "there's no accounting for taste," expecting some more detail which would clarify things somewhat
08:35<eekee>most of my communication goes like that, actually
08:36<eekee>it's true XD
08:37<yorick>heh, openttd server in 52.7 KB
08:37<z-MaTRiX>what if i would swap 2 colors in my client?
08:37<z-MaTRiX>į would have color taken no?
08:37<z-MaTRiX>having color white, though others see me as blue
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08:38<eekee>I think that could work.
08:38<yorick>what could
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08:39<planetmaker>z-MaTRiX, you can do with your client what you like as long as you report back the correct random number
08:41<yorick>or you can simply not report a random number :)
08:45<Alberth>z-MaTRiX: your chat may get highly complicated ('put the tracks next to those of the blue player')
08:46<z-MaTRiX>only if they say colors instead of company names
08:47<yorick>what's the actual question?
08:51<z-MaTRiX>nothing really, just wanted to check if soneone understands the question
08:56<planetmaker>z-MaTRiX, sure, I always look up the name in a list instead of referring to the colour I see directly on the playground ;)
08:57<z-MaTRiX>that will be more interesting when you have more than 40 competitors
08:58<planetmaker>you are boring...
08:58<planetmaker>Earth would be warmer, if the moon was another sun
08:58<planetmaker>yeah. Both is true. Both is irrelevant.
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09:02<z-MaTRiX>btw have you been thinking about adding more colors?
09:03<z-MaTRiX>just think about UTP cahles, and twisted, multiple colored candy
09:04<z-MaTRiX>red-white twisted colored maglev would be nice
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09:05*yorick hopes z-MaTRiX will eat an UTP cable some day
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09:14<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16375 /trunk/src/bridge_gui.cpp: -Codechange: don't be afraid of deleting NULL pointers
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09:34<z-MaTRiX>would be nice if someone includes a function with 2 color selectors that is rendering colors like this
09:35<planetmaker>it would be nice if less people would issue "great ideas" and more people actually work on such ideas
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09:36<planetmaker>especially someone has already quite a workload and could use some help
09:36<z-MaTRiX>i cant find what is where yet :(
09:36<z-MaTRiX>in sources
09:39*z-MaTRiX is shamed not posted .diff files already ;<
09:41<planetmaker>that said, two company coloured things can already be made via newgrf
09:41<planetmaker>well. as long as they're vehicles, stations ,trains, planes afaik
09:42<planetmaker>and houses can be anything the grf author paints
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09:45<z-MaTRiX>isn't there a poaintmask for every vehicle/building?
09:50<planetmaker>it's an advantage...
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09:53<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16376 /trunk/src/ (13 files): -Codechange: Vehicle::Tick() now returns false if the vehicle was deleted
09:57<z-MaTRiX>hi :)
10:06<@petern>hi Belugas
10:06<@petern>have you gone home yet? :D
10:16<@Belugas>hello petern. I came at home yesterady around 7:30h, kiddo was already sleeping. I crashed in bed around 9:00h, and... as a sudden, i'm still in the same office :(
10:17<@Belugas>and today, i THINK i'll be off LEAVING it around 9:00h PM
10:17<@Belugas>joyfull stuff :S
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10:23<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16377 /trunk/src/ (16 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: unify FOR_ALL_* macros, use separate index variable instead of var->index
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10:39<@petern>*** petern has left the game (connection lost)
10:39<@petern>pom te pom
10:39<Prof_Frink>*** Sacro has lost the game (connection left)
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10:43<@petern>hmm, client is reporting Network Game synchronisation failed, but server isn't reporting desync :\
10:43<Prof_Frink>Ah. The synchronisation check has become desynchonised.
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10:48<@petern>or was it Network-Game connection lost
10:49<@SmatZ>I think there cases when client reports desync, but server connetion loss
10:50<@SmatZ>(server drops the slow client before he finds out the desync problem)
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10:52<planetmaker>petern, further there's
10:52<planetmaker>e.g. a normally reported disconnect is reported also as lost.
10:52<@SmatZ>planetmaker: I think that's not the same problem
10:52<@petern>yeah, i'm using 0.7.1-RC2 though
10:52<planetmaker>SmatZ, but same "area" :)
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11:01<@petern>nope, definitely synchronisation failed
11:01<@petern>and it's not slow clients
11:02<@petern>cos it happens for all clients at the same time
11:04<@SmatZ>0.7.1-RC2 desyncs? :(
11:05<planetmaker>muh :(
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11:08<@petern>SmatZ, yeah, with TaI
11:08<planetmaker>hm. wasn't there a fix which actually *should* have fixed that?
11:10<@petern>i'm just confused as the server doesn't consider it as a desync
11:14<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16378 /trunk/ (69 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: replace OldPool with simpler Pool. Compilation time, binary size and run time (with asserts disabled) should be improved
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11:23<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16379 /trunk/src/ (15 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: remove GetNumTowns(), GetNumIndustries() and GetActiveCompanyCount(), use PoolItem::GetNumItems() instead
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11:26*petern wonders if realloc is optimised to not ever copy data around
11:27<@SmatZ>it should happen rarely anyway
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11:39<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16380 /trunk/ (22 files in 6 dirs): -Codechange: rename pool.hpp to pool_type.hpp
11:39<@petern>how do you debug a desync that isn't seen a desync? :s
11:39<Westie>what is it then?
11:40<Sacro>How do you solve a problem with a problem
11:40<@petern>+as a
11:40<Westie>desync it, debug it
11:41<Westie>(basically, aggrivate 'teh pr0bl3m!11one')
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12:27*frosch123 suspects building counts
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12:29-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
12:30<@SmatZ>frosch123: how can be?
12:30<frosch123>they were changed at least two times because they were desyncing and never tested :)
12:31<@SmatZ>it's simple to add a time-consuming test for that :)
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12:39<DJNekkid>hi devs ... i got a (hopefully) quite small feature request...
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12:40<DJNekkid>callback 36 support for action property 24 (for trains) ... i.e. highbyte of weight
12:40<frosch123>I would expect you can just return 15 bit for the normal property
12:40<DJNekkid>let me test
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12:55*liveCDduck is boored
12:56<@petern>Belugas, i'm home, hurry up :s
12:56<@Belugas>i wish i could
12:57<@Belugas>liveCDduck, thanks for entertaining us
12:57<@Belugas>really appreciated
12:57<liveCDduck>Belugas, hehe
12:57<liveCDduck>Belugas, well im busy fixing my main computer that i may have accidentally borked during a experiment with grub2
12:57<liveCDduck>and its booring
12:58-!-lewymati [] has quit []
12:58<DJNekkid>frosch123: you were correct :)
12:58<liveCDduck>actually its twice as booring because i decided for reasons unknown to myself to redo my sid install
12:58*liveCDduck snores
12:58<frosch123>fine :)
12:58<@Belugas>you wantboring? come over here. quazillions tests to perfom on a chip n pin simulator, taking note of all the results, grabbing the receipts and all... that is boring...
12:59<@Belugas>ho.. and do that over a 5 days period
12:59<@Belugas>now that is EXTREMELY boring
12:59<liveCDduck>Belugas, :D
12:59<liveCDduck>Belugas, well yeah but the fact that i dont have a debian cd or even remotely like it
12:59<liveCDduck>means that i have to use debootstrap :P
13:00<Sacro>Belugas: you know what else is...
13:00<Sacro>digging for oil
13:00<liveCDduck>Sacro, who digs for oil?
13:00<Sacro>bores :p
13:00<liveCDduck>well some shitty places do
13:00<liveCDduck>Sacro, oil drilling though is good work
13:00<@Belugas># Digging in the dirt...
13:00*Prof_Frink hands Sacro a TBM
13:00<liveCDduck>atleast on platforms
13:00<@Belugas># That's the place where it got hurt
13:01<Prof_Frink>What a boring machine.
13:01<frosch123>that fat stuff is already quite boring if you have to do it for 3 hours
13:01<@Belugas>Pretty hate Machine
13:01<liveCDduck>Sacro, 24h shifts
13:01<@Belugas>Welcome to the nmachine
13:01<liveCDduck>and 3 week vacation
13:01<@Belugas>Machine Messaia
13:01<liveCDduck>for every 4 weeks of work
13:01<@Belugas>Machine Head (of course...)
13:02<@Belugas>in honor to XeryusTC
13:02<Sacro>we should have an openttd meet
13:02*liveCDduck prefers his deus ex MACHINA
13:02<Sacro>we shall go visit Prof_Frink
13:02<liveCDduck>Sacro, arent all openttd players either people with ocd or introverts?
13:02*Belugas resurect Pretty Hate Machine
13:02<Prof_Frink>Belugas: The Artilleyman and the Fighting Machine
13:02<XeryusTC>Belugas: i dont listen to machine head
13:03<@Belugas>good point (didn't now that one)
13:03<@Belugas>well...that is purple, no?
13:03<XeryusTC>deep purple?
13:03<@Belugas>the album
13:04<@Belugas>or am i loosing it???
13:04<Prof_Frink>Sacro: I'll push you off a cliff.
13:06*Prof_Frink looses an arrow in Belugas' direction
13:06<@Belugas>XeryusTC : quite -> loosing it?? or -> indeed, purple album ??
13:07<DJNekkid>frosch123: can the same thing be saied about capacity?
13:07*Prof_Frink rages against Belugas' machine
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13:08<frosch123>DJNekkid: likely about all callback 36
13:09<liveCDduck>hmm, i want to rage.
13:09<liveCDduck>why must there be so many idiotically setup openttd servers
13:11<Prof_Frink>No the past tense of setup is set up.
13:11<liveCDduck>actually i probally would want to make it why must so many openttd servers be configured by idiots or left at default settings
13:11<liveCDduck>a : after it
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13:21<Eddi|zuHause>that was weird...
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>my screen and sound went dark, and i thought it was a power outge from the oncoming storm
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>but when the screen came back on, the computer was still running, only the X server quit
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>and that right after i came home 10 seconds ago...
13:22<fonsinchen>What's the difference between PoolItem::GetPoolSize() and PoolItem::GetNumItems()?
13:23<frosch123>I guess similiar to GetCount vs GetCapacity
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13:23<Eddi|zuHause>poolsize=numitems*itemsize? or allocated vs used items?
13:23<Alberth>I vote for the latter
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't that kind of information be in the documentation?
13:24<fonsinchen>there are some comments there ...
13:24<fonsinchen>but then: what is the "first unused index"?
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13:25<fonsinchen>and does "number of valid items in the pool" include holes?
13:25<fonsinchen>holes being places where there is space reserved in the pool but no item allocated.
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>that means that pool items may be deleted (and later reused)?
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>i don't fully understand pools either
13:26<fonsinchen>Well, stations can be deleted. Then there is a hole in the pool
13:26<fonsinchen>I learned that the hard way ...
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, holes are hardly valid items
13:27<fonsinchen>No, they have random values in them.
13:27<fonsinchen>Anyway, I want something like GetMaxStationIndex used to do?
13:28<fonsinchen>Which function should I use?
13:28<@petern>is the same thing
13:28<fonsinchen>ok, thanks
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13:29<frosch123>fonsinchen: just take a look at FOR_ALL_ITEMS_FROM
13:31-!-yorick [] has joined #openttd
13:31<fonsinchen>and what are those new *_Ptrs chunk handlers about?
13:32<frosch123>for turning BlablaIndex into *Blabla
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13:35<fonsinchen>Are they documented anywhere? I don't get what is happening there.
13:36<fonsinchen>I mean, the linkgraph doesn't have any indices, but I want to save it anyway.
13:36-!-Booth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:36<frosch123>do you have any pointers you want to store?
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13:38<fonsinchen>I deduce all references from the order of saving
13:38<fonsinchen>and from some size parameters I save
13:38<fonsinchen>for example I save a linkgraph, in the linkgraph I save it's number of components and following that I save those components.
13:38<frosch123>if you have no "Vehicle *v" or "Order *order" or similiar pointers to pool items, you do not need a _Ptrs thingie
13:39<fonsinchen>I can set it to NULL then?
13:39<CIA-3>OpenTTD: translators * r16381 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:39<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-05-22 17:38:42
13:39<CIA-3>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 2 fixed by tucalipe (2)
13:39<CIA-3>OpenTTD: estonian - 2 fixed by kristjans (2)
13:39<CIA-3>OpenTTD: french - 2 fixed by glx (2)
13:39<CIA-3>OpenTTD: indonesian - 20 fixed by rindu (20)
13:39<CIA-3>OpenTTD: romanian - 4 fixed by CrystyB (2), kkmic (2)
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13:49<frosch123>haha, ok with tai populatio is desyncing for all towns
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>that does not sound very good ;)
13:50<frosch123>just start a game with one server and one client and put the windows next to each other :p
13:52<frosch123>later number of houses differ, but I guess that is due to the population differing
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13:58<frosch123>hmm, maybe pikka uses non-zero populations for additonal house tiles
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>imho, no valid grf should be able to desync a server, so it'd be openttd's fault
14:01<frosch123>the specs clearly say, that additonal tiles shall have a population of zero :p
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>then the grf should be caught as invalid
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>which still falls into the responsibility of ottd
14:06<frosch123>let's see whether that works...
14:12<yorick>should a savegame/server be able to crash openttd?
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14:16<eekee>a client shouldn't be able to crash a server, but the other way around seems harmless
14:16<@petern>not ideal
14:16<@petern>but less of a problem
14:17<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16382 /trunk/src/ (16 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: make GetVehicleTrackdir a member function of Vehicle.
14:19<yorick>it's quite easy to have a server crash a client
14:25<Xaroth>thank fuck it's harder the other way around :)
14:26<yorick>it shouldn't be able to crash a client using only udp
14:30<@petern>why don't you just write up a bug report instead of alluding to shit
14:33<_ln>Does someone have an opinion about Canon PowerShot A1100 IS?
14:35<@Belugas>wow... i just understood a few minutes ago the interaction between the PINPad and the chipnpin card: it's like OpenTTD and a newgrf-callback file interaction :D
14:36<_ln>Belugas: what are you working on, btw?
14:36<@Belugas>_ln, personnaly, i'd prefer a Canon EOS XSI, the 450D.. question of opinion
14:36<@Belugas>yeah, as petern said
14:39<_ln>EOS sounds expensive
14:39<_ln>not that I wouldn't want to have one some day.
14:43<SpComb>most crashes are potentially exploitable
14:43<SpComb>as in, exploitable for more than just causing a crash
14:44<CIA-3>OpenTTD: frosch * r16383 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix/Change: Disable multitile houses with non-zero population on additional tiles as they cause desyncs and because the specs do not allow that either.
14:48<@Belugas>_ln : it may be, but it's a fine machine. Tha's the one my wife has. Not to mention the lenses she has...
14:49<@Belugas>as for me, i'm quite happy with my Sony DSC-P73
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14:55<@petern>frosch123, that fixes TaI?
14:56<frosch123>yup, and prints
14:56<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16384 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move u.effect to EffectVehicle
14:57<frosch123>so, no, it only fixed ottd, tai still needs fixing
14:57<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16385 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move u.disaster to DisasterVehicle.
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15:09*Belugas is buzzing on 32 Ghosts IV
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15:17<z-MaTRiX>someone know how to stop a 120000 HP LEV-4 train carrying 1320000 litres of oil traveling at 643kmh-1 instantly?
15:17<Alberth>remove a piece of track?
15:17<z-MaTRiX>or place red signal <;
15:17*eekee thinks trains should crash if they come to the end of the line too fast >:)
15:18*yorick thinks it's far too realistic
15:18<z-MaTRiX>but if i click stop it takes long time to stop :P
15:19<eekee>one-way PBSignal facing the wrong way will stop a train cold too
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15:20<z-MaTRiX>cool, reversing train stops immediatly too
15:20-!-Polygon [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:20<eekee>really? Doesn't seem to work for me
15:21<z-MaTRiX>clicked reverse train, then stop
15:23<z-MaTRiX>(built a test track from 1000000000 euros)
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15:25<@Belugas>[15:20] * eekee thinks trains should crash if they come to the end of the line too fast >:) <---- I bet you'd be among the first ones to yell at it if ever it was implemented
15:26<eekee>probably XD;
15:28<z-MaTRiX>howcome station rating is only 84% if a 38 car maglev train arrives every 5-10 days?
15:28*yorick would like master sevrer address in config file
15:28<z-MaTRiX>(not set to full load)
15:29<@Belugas>change it, yorick
15:39<yorick>what's the master server session key used for?
15:40<eekee>unlocking the master server session *nod*
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15:41<eekee>z-MaTRiX: 84% is extremely high for a single train
15:43<z-MaTRiX>track length: 1000
15:43<z-MaTRiX>12 trains going to station
15:46<z-MaTRiX>hahah made a wave of maglev rail, train goes through 643kmh-1, looks interesting
15:47<z-MaTRiX>though i remember i read on forum "train will slow down if on more than 2 45deg turns"
15:47<@petern>thing is
15:47<@petern>nobody actually cares
15:47<CIA-3>OpenTTD: frosch * r16386 /trunk/src/ (build_vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.h): -Codechange: Move ShowAdditionalText() to build_vehicle_gui and make it static.
15:47<Alberth>it is also often non-interesting, eg when near a station
15:48<z-MaTRiX>well yes
15:48<eekee>I do, & sometimes have to smooth out turns near stations to get the trains in & out more efficiently. All part of the challenge, that
15:51<z-MaTRiX>maglev train does not slow down if only 45deg turns in track
15:52<eekee>it'll slow down for \_/
15:52<eekee>it won't slow down for \__/
15:52<z-MaTRiX>just tested it.
15:53<Chris_Booth>it will also slow downs for \_
15:53<Chris_Booth> \
15:53<z-MaTRiX>train waving through at 643kmh-1
15:53<eekee>not that I've noticed
15:53<Chris_Booth>i mean a double S shaped curve
15:54<eekee>Ah I took \_ to mean a sigle corner
15:57<@petern>what is this "kmh-1" you speak of?
15:58<fjb>km/h, km per hour
16:00<Prof_Frink>Does openttd support fff yet?
16:00<@petern>nope :(
16:00*petern ponders adding it
16:02<Prof_Frink>Yes! It should be top of the "New Features" list for 0.8.0!
16:03<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16387 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: use Aircraft instead of Vehicle where appropriate
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16:06<z-MaTRiX>i dont care, its nice it can take the turns that fast
16:07<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16388 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move u.air to Aircraft
16:13<@petern>Prof_Frink, hmm, what are the units for power & force? :s
16:14<Prof_Frink>f=ma, so f*f/(f^2)
16:15<Prof_Frink>Power... work/time... force*dist/time
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16:18<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16389 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: use RoadVehicle instead of Vehicle where appropriate
16:19<Prof_Frink>Anyone fancy simplifying that down?
16:19<frosch123>is f*f/f^2*f/f easier?
16:19<Chris_Booth>its 2
16:19<Chris_Booth>f*f is f^2
16:20<yorick>it's basically f/f
16:20<yorick>which is 1
16:20<Chris_Booth>2 wasnt a bad guess
16:20*frosch123 is impressed
16:20<@petern>it's not
16:20<@petern>f is not the same f
16:20<Chris_Booth>it is
16:20<Chris_Booth>f*f is f^2
16:21<Chris_Booth>f^s / f^2 is 1
16:21<Chris_Booth>f/f is 1
16:21<Chris_Booth>1*1 is 1
16:21<yorick>1 * 1 is 1
16:21<frosch123>@calc 1 * 1
16:21<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 1
16:21<Prof_Frink>Chris_Booth: Not all fs are equal.
16:21<yorick>@calc *2*2/(2^2))*2/2
16:21<@DorpsGek>yorick: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
16:21<frosch123>better safe than sorry
16:22<Prof_Frink>Some are furlongs, some firkins, some fortnights.
16:22<yorick>@calc (2*2/(2^2))*2/2
16:22<@DorpsGek>yorick: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
16:22<yorick>@calc (2*2/(2**2))*2/2
16:22<@DorpsGek>yorick: 1
16:22<Chris_Booth>well use differet letter for them all
16:22<Chris_Booth>so xyz
16:22<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16390 /trunk/src/ (22 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: move u.road to RoadVehicle.
16:22<Prof_Frink>Work it out ;)
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16:28<@petern>f = firkin, f = furlong, f = fortnight
16:28<@petern>it's quite clear
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16:29<Prof_Frink>And a firkin can be a unit of mass or volume.
16:30<Ammler>why do newgrfs version begin with v?
16:30<@Belugas>i was going to make a joke with another f word with mass, volume and such... but.... i'll shut up and keep working
16:30<Ammler>like ISR v0.8.0
16:30<Ammler>but OpenTTD doesn't?
16:30<@petern>why is windows xp called windows xp?
16:31<@petern>the reason is: it is TOTALLY UP TO THE NEWGRF AUTHOR WHAT TO CALL THEIR GRF
16:31<yorick>because they wanted us to feel the "experience"
16:31<@petern>Belugas, go home
16:31<@petern>i'm bored of unknown people jamming :/
16:32<Prof_Frink>Why? It's less tiring than laybacking.
16:32<Prof_Frink>Can be painful if you do it wrong though.
16:34<@Belugas>i wish, petern, i wish!
16:34<@Belugas>you have invites?
16:36<@Belugas>[16:34] <@petern> i'm bored of unknown people jamming :/ <-- that's what I understood
16:36<@petern>have been on the test servers
16:36<@Belugas>admit it: I'm good and hard to match :D
16:38<@Belugas>hardy harr... 28 more cases to run
16:38*Belugas "dives" in
16:39<Alberth>eveybody have fun, see you tomorrow
16:40<@petern>Belugas, yup, they play a different style
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16:49<@Belugas>petern, i tried a few jamming sessions on those servers. Not really... fun, i'd say. Feels like they want to impress each others
16:49<@Belugas>especially the drummers...
16:53<@petern>and someone will come along and pretty much pipe a complete song
16:53<@petern>which is not quite the spirit of it
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16:55<@Belugas>although a know a few tubular bells moments... but that's beside the point ;)
16:56<@petern>yeah but that's us playing there & then, not prearranged
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16:59<@Belugas>ho... ho... i see ... now that's silly... i though you meant actually playing the said song.
16:59<@Belugas>no, true, that is boring
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17:09-!-dih is now known as dihedral
17:09<z-MaTRiX>[F] = N
17:10<z-MaTRiX>[P] = W
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17:12<Chruker>high-school physics?
17:13<Prof_Frink>z-MaTRiX: That's SI. We're talking fff.
17:13<z-MaTRiX>it is basic here, i dont know other places
17:13<planetmaker>uhm... the equation is wrong
17:13<planetmaker>except if [Wm] = J
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17:14<z-MaTRiX>right, m should be low index
17:14<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:15<Nite_Owl>Hello z-MaTRiz & eekee
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17:19<@petern>why did i decide to download the score for the moonlight sonata?
17:19<@petern>it's bloody difficuly :s
17:22<@Belugas>Bloody Valentine
17:22<@Belugas>have "fun" petern :)
17:22<@Belugas>by the way, the office is now officially deserted
17:22<@Belugas>so NINE INCH NAILS blasting n speakers!
17:22<@petern>but unofficially, you're still there
17:22<frosch123>which caused what?
17:23<@Belugas>i donot count. I'm a swiping machine
17:23<@Belugas>not human anymore
17:23<@Belugas>lol @ frosch123!
17:25<@Belugas>maybe me singing all day long might have triggered exodus ;)
17:25<@Belugas>ask petern :) ain't a nice voice I have ;)
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17:33<z-MaTRiX>btw accelleration and minimum turn radius and speed in turn is limited by computers for the comfort of passengers in maglev train designs
17:34<z-MaTRiX>i can imagine a maglev train accellerating at >30G not taking passengers
17:35<z-MaTRiX>( G=9.81m/s^2 )
17:35<eekee>define 30G in the context of openttd. Do you go by scale or by date?
17:36<z-MaTRiX>heheh, was talking about the real thing
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17:36<eekee>I rememebr a time when realistic acceleration was realistic according to scale. It was very very difficult because trains could take days to enter a station
17:36<eekee>ah ok :)
17:37<eekee>I guess a 'realistic' passenger maglev for ottd would be one that doesn't accelerate much faster than a good electric
17:38<z-MaTRiX>i think in the game, accelleration is mostly limited by horsepowers
17:39<z-MaTRiX>starting with steam, and as time advances, new vehicles come
17:39<eekee>horsepower & tractive effort, yeah
17:41<eekee>steam engines have gobs of tractive effort & some early diesels have more hp but so little te that they can't do as much
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17:44<z-MaTRiX>at 0.5G accelleration, maglev would do 0-643kmh^-1 in 37 seconds
17:45<eekee>ooh now
17:45<eekee>if all seats face forward (as they do on some British electrics now) 0.5G is nothing
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17:46<z-MaTRiX>you would feel half of your mass forcing you into the seat
17:47<z-MaTRiX>not sure what they say comfortable
17:48<eekee>hmm that is true. Maybe I'm thinking in terms of a fit person
17:48<z-MaTRiX>but since maglev trains just floating in the air, there is no noise and vibration
17:49<z-MaTRiX>only air resistance
17:49<eekee>I know quite a lot of cars can develop 1G centrifugal acceleration turning
17:49<z-MaTRiX>yeah, also you can do more by using spoilers
17:50<z-MaTRiX>and forcing car to the road
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17:51<z-MaTRiX>you can go upside down in a tunnel with a formula-1 car
17:51<eekee>not really sure how it works but back in 91/92 Car magazine reported the BMW M3 as capable of developing more lateral Gs than the Ferrari F40 O...o
17:53<z-MaTRiX>the larger force do road the larger the grip of wheels
17:57<z-MaTRiX>if you have a nice seat i would say 1.5G is comfortable
17:58<z-MaTRiX>that would be 12 seconds 0-631kmh^-1
17:58<eekee>right :D
17:58<z-MaTRiX>then you could drink standing
17:59<z-MaTRiX>like in aeroplanes
18:00<z-MaTRiX>then warnings appear "fasten your seat-belts, we're going to start deceleration"
18:00<eekee>yeah :)
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18:07<Mark>a binary counter should be able to count way higher with relatively less not gates
18:07<Mark>will look at that tomorrow
18:09<z-MaTRiX>Programming Xilinx ?
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18:20<fonsinchen>as of tr16390 runk fails to compile:
18:20<fonsinchen>ahem ...
18:23<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16391 /trunk/src/ (33 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: use Train instead of Vehicle where appropriate.
18:25<fonsinchen>nice, that was quick
18:25*fonsinchen bows to Rubidium
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18:31<fjb>Hi fonsinchen, is there a way to revive my crashing game?
18:31<fonsinchen>There is no way to load old save games in today's version of cargodist
18:31<fonsinchen>if that's the question
18:32<fonsinchen>I need to break savegame compatibility occasionally. I can't carry around piles of old cruft that will get obsolete anyway.
18:32<fjb>I guess that was the answer.
18:32<fjb>And any way to make it not crash in the older version?
18:33<fonsinchen>but of course you can check out an old version from my git repository and try to debug it further
18:33<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16392 /trunk/src/ (24 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: move some variables (the ones that aren't caches) from VehicleRail to Train
18:33<fonsinchen>We still haven't found out what was wrong there.
18:34<DJNekkid>i _just_ dont get it!
18:34<fonsinchen>do "git log"
18:34<fonsinchen>then find the revision you like
18:34<fjb>Debugging, yes, if I had time. Chasing bugs all day in my project at work.
18:35<fonsinchen>a backtrace would already be so nice
18:35<fonsinchen>you don't have to chase the bug, just give me a backtrace of the crash and I'll figure it out.
18:35<fjb>Is that still the bug in the savegame I put to the forum?
18:36<fonsinchen>the freezing?
18:36<fonsinchen>I'm looking for the crash that's somehow related to the station GUI but not deterministic.
18:36<fjb>Not freezing, it crashes the game. But I guessed you fixed the problem I had. Never encountered freezing with cargodist.
18:37<fonsinchen>Oh, let me reread your post, I must have confused something ...
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18:37<fonsinchen>Ah, yes. The crash with "Coal and Ore" is fixed.
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18:38<fjb>Even didn't have a crash in the station gui. I could crash it when I deleted all orders of a vehicle loading at a station.
18:39<fjb>Yes, and the fix broke the compatibility. :-) So I declare that game lost.
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18:39<fonsinchen>I couldn't reproduce the other crash, but it must have been the order list being NULL. This is fixed, too.
18:40<fonsinchen>But that was some guy called "Gathers" who reported the problem with the order list ...
18:41<@Belugas>F I N I S H E D !!!!!!!
18:42<eekee>YAY! What's finished again? :)
18:43<fonsinchen>fjb: The problem with "Coal and Ore" was that I had assumed the station pool doesn't grow. This of course was wrong. Then Rondje om de Kerk came and built crazy things which finally triggered the station pool to grow. Then it crashed. I don't think this is fixable without breaking savegame compatibility or writing some special loading for old cargodist savegames.
18:44<fjb>I didn't have much problems with cargodist. I have thought about the full load any cargo override. Maybe it would be a good idea. And conditional oders? What happens if cargodist just ignores the conditions and loads cargo for all stations in the order list which accept that cargo and have no explizit "no unload" order?
18:44<eekee>awwa :)
18:44<@Belugas>me is finished
18:44<@Belugas>me is throught with that incredibly boring piece of certification!
18:45<Nite_Owl>Time to feed - be back in a bit
18:46<fjb>"Coal and Ore" wasn't the best game any way. I will never call a company like that. I was chasing coal the whole game long. It is astonishing how many coal a single steel mill needs, even when it hast stockpiling.
18:46<fonsinchen>fjb: if all vehicles do that independent of conditional orders the numbers won't work out anymore. Cargo will occasionally take long ways instead of short ways, thus blocking other cargo that wants to use the same vehicle. The MCF specifically assigns cargo to links and usually that should be respected.
18:47<fonsinchen>Also "accept" is not enough. It might be transferred.
18:48<fjb>Hm, yes. But still what happens if you take the orders list and remove all contitional oders before prozessing the list?
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18:49<eekee>taking the long way can be defeated with waypoints.
18:50<fonsinchen>fjb: That's how it works at the moment. Conditional orders are ignored.
18:50<fonsinchen>The problems are obvious.
18:50<fonsinchen>eekee: The problem is not vehicles taking a long way between stations but cargo going via another station even though it should go directly.
18:51<fjb>fonsinchen: Which problems are the result from ignoring the conditinal orders?
18:51<eekee>oh I see
18:52<fonsinchen>fjb: it only loads cargo going via the next station in the order list. The condition can make it jump to a different station. Cargo going via that station is never loaded.
18:54<fjb>Hm, yes, And loading cargo for both possibilities? Can get complicated, I guess.
18:55<fonsinchen>Conditions can be chained
18:55<fonsinchen>This will get ugly
18:55<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16393 /trunk/src/ (18 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: move VehicleRail to Train.
18:56<fonsinchen>but what I could implement is having it load cargo for all stations in its order list.
18:57<fjb>Would that have bad side effects?
18:57<fonsinchen>It would make the loading code more complicated
18:58<fonsinchen>And it's already very ... baroque.
18:59<fjb>Then a bit more doesn't matter anymore. (hides) :-)
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19:00<fjb>Attantion, oversized loading code. Don't feed!
19:02<fonsinchen>I'd like a solution that also adresses the non-nonstop problem.
19:03<fonsinchen>Just saying "we don't know where this vehicle is going" and falling back to traditional routing is the best thing we can do, I think.
19:03<fjb>What does it now? Does it "learn" that stations?
19:03<Sacro>petern: how to install RoR mods?
19:03<fonsinchen>No, it insists that the vehicle is going to the next station in the order list and is always surprised if it doesn't show up there.
19:04<fjb>Non-nonstop was always a problem, cargodest ignores that stations.
19:05<fjb>Fallback would be the best then. Better than being surprised.
19:06<fonsinchen>We can find out if a vehicle has cargodist-incompatible orders. It's actually not so hard. I could then declare forced unload and forced transfer to be cargodist-incompatible too and remove quite a bit of craziness from the loading code.
19:08<fjb>Sounds good. What is the actual magic when a vehicle has the same station twice in its orders?
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19:11<fjb>Hello, don't hack that poor little bit too much.
19:11<HackaLittleBit>going to hack it in two
19:12<HackaLittleBit>is Belugas around?
19:14<fjb>Belugas got certificated and is now secured.
19:14<HackaLittleBit>I heard it :)
19:15<fjb>Or did I get that wrong?
19:15<HackaLittleBit>Ah , Belugas need a favor from you
19:15<@Belugas>does not cost to hear what you want
19:15<eekee>I think you got all the correct word roots fjb. Not so sure about the order & tense ^^;
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19:19<fonsinchen>fjb: There is no magic. If the same station shows up twice in a row it won't find any cargo to carry at the first visit as no cargo wants to go to the same station where it already is.
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19:21<fjb>fonsinchen: I had the problem that the train did not load anything on the first visit at the station.
19:23<fonsinchen>That's what I'm saying. What should it load there? It's going there again, so it can as well load at the second visit.
19:26<fjb>Problem is, when the first visit hat a full load order (train is waiting for Godot) and the second visit has a no loading order.
19:29<fjb>In the "Coal and ore" game I did work around that, but it cought me with surprise that the trains did not load till you told me the reason.
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19:34<HackaLittleBit>hello eddi
19:35<@Belugas>night all, i'm getting away for the weekend
19:36<fjb>Night Belugas
19:36<HackaLittleBit>good night
19:37<Nite_Owl>later Belugas
19:38<HackaLittleBit>night all, i'm staying home for the weekend (with the kids)
19:39<eekee>night all, I cannot predict my movements over the weekend. :)
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20:44<Nite_Owl>PC Popsicle
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---Logclosed Sat May 23 00:00:10 2009