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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-05-23

---Logopened Sat May 23 00:00:10 2009
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00:34<z-MaTRiX>encountered a weird thing in OpenTTD
00:35<z-MaTRiX>"unload all, and leave empty" option set, train having 275000 litres of oil after leaving
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04:22<@petern>hmm, maybe we need to cull trees a bi more
04:27<@petern>frosch123, pikka's fixed the grf now :D
04:27<@petern>and it does indeed fix the desyncs, at least so far
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04:55<Pikka>woo! :o
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05:11<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16394 /trunk/src/ (16 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: move (NewGRF) cache variables into a separate struct so (some vehicle related) NewGRF cache 'desyncs' can be tested easier.
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06:53<dexistin>hi, i am trying to figure out what is the best way to replace trains between different types of railways
07:04<dexistin>i tried openttd yesterday after several months, and it lacks only complete graphics/sounds replacement to be perfect :-)
07:08<Ammler>dexistin: use some newgrfs and the replacement is "almost" perfect ;-)
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07:13<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16395 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_sign.cpp: -Fix (r16379): max sign ID can be higher than total number of signs
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07:35<Ammler>possible a grf made on linux or windows wtth the same nfo and same parameters can differ?
07:35<Ammler>Is it*
07:39<frosch123>you mean because of grfcodec?
07:40<Ammler>frosch123: yes
07:40<frosch123>then I would guess binary include sprites
07:40<frosch123>grfcodec is quite broken if it comes to them
07:40<Ammler>it seems that comments on the nfo has influence on the grf too, possible?
07:41<frosch123>it reads the filename until it encounters a linebreak. so it keeps trailing whitespace including sometimes \r or not
07:46<planetmaker>well... the solution is to actually use identical nfo build scripts on linux and windows :P
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07:47<Ammler>indeed, they make identical grfs now, so it seems fine.
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08:05<kkb1101>in ChangeIndustryProduction() function. the variable 'mult' is assigned first and assigned again without being used.
08:06<kkb1101>oh sorry misread actually not
08:08<Alberth>when in doubt, simply highlight all occurrences with the editor search function.
08:10<kkb1101>ok thanks :D
08:13<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16396 /trunk/src/ (11 files): -Codechange: split NewGRF spritegroup into multiple subclasses instead of using a big union
08:27<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16397 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move GetVehicleOrder/GetLastVehicleOrder into Vehicle
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08:56<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16398 /trunk/src/newgrf_spritegroup.h: -Feature: make NewGRF callbacks work again; honouring the 'features' of, which was released only 5 years ago.
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08:57<Muxy>Kiss from Goulp
08:58<yorick> features are building on FreeBSD and MorphOS
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09:00<z-MaTRiX>this network is continuously disconnecting
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's you.
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09:18*yorick looks at z-MaTRiX' hostname...
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09:21<Muxy>Is there a way to make an airport grow automatically ?
09:21<yorick>there isn't.
09:22<Muxy>programmatically speaking
09:22<yorick>you mean like there's planes, and there's more planes, and then all of a sudden there's a bigger airport?
09:23<Muxy>according to its traffic and quality level
09:23<@SmatZ>everything is possible
09:23<Alberth>but far from trivial :)
09:23<Muxy>it's a question of time and resources... i know
09:25<Muxy>and of course time... because after plane evolution, there is no solution to use small airports
09:26<Muxy>Yorck: You see what i mean ?
09:29<@SmatZ>Muxy: you can use that "Engines never expire" setting
09:29<@SmatZ>and helis can use small airports too :-p
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09:41<z-MaTRiX>Eddi|zuHause, all other servers running ok
09:41<z-MaTRiX>Muxy, there is way to make airport grow?
09:42<CIA-3>OpenTTD: frosch * r16399 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r4540): Don't treat pointer values as integer.
09:43<z-MaTRiX>yorick, like it? ;>
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10:00<Boukev>Hi all
10:02<Boukev>Was just wondering, is there any database of track layouts or something somewhere online?
10:03<Alberth>the wiki, the openttdcoop wiki
10:03<Boukev>Thanks will check
10:06<Boukev>Some great junctions in there :)
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10:55<CIA-3>OpenTTD: yexo * r16400 /trunk/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Add [NoAI]: add AISignList that can be used to get a list of valid signs. This makes AISign::GetMaxSignID obsolete.
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11:23<CIA-3>OpenTTD: yexo * r16401 /trunk/source.list: -Fix (r16400): forgot to commit the changes to source.list (thanks SmatZ)
11:26<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16402 /trunk/src/ (10 files): -Codechange: make Resolve a function of SpriteGroup
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11:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16403 /trunk/ (18 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: move code related to subsidies to separate file
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12:01<z-MaTRiX>only ocean level can contain water?
12:02<z-MaTRiX>(thinking about higher ocean level)
12:02<frosch123>there are canals and rivers
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>there is an old patch doing that
12:03<z-MaTRiX>but unpatched its default right?
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12:03<z-MaTRiX>have not seen water at higher levels, was just wondering
12:05<_ln>it's realism. you know water will not stay above sea level in real life either.
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12:07<d3xistin>i guess z-M refers to lakes or maybe even rivers
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12:09<d3xistin>just saying it's real, imHo it's absolutely not worth implementing
12:09<_ln>i know... i'm just trying to make Belugas believe it's being realistic now, so he could fix it to unrealistic.
12:10<z-MaTRiX>_ln, well, if you higher the sea edges above sea-level...
12:11<z-MaTRiX>d3xistin, yep that will be a lake
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12:12<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: rivers and lakes are already implemented
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>they are just not autogenerated
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>feel free to address that ;)
12:12<z-MaTRiX>oh ok
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>hey, idea: use squirrel for map generation :p
12:13<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: already done, and it's too slow :)
12:14<z-MaTRiX>"save the trees, eat beavers!"
12:14<dexistin>mm, how can you make a river?
12:14<z-MaTRiX>guessing, map generator
12:15<yorick>it's the river button
12:15<z-MaTRiX>transport company makes rivers?:)
12:15<yorick>the scenario editor
12:15<yorick>unless ammler has it his way
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12:17<Ammler>there is sadly no possibility to make rivers ingame, wrt realism.
12:17<z-MaTRiX>1000000000 euro should do it :)
12:18<planetmaker>oh, yes
12:18<EoD>Has anyone ever tried to compile openttd on sparc (32/64 bit)?
12:18<_ln>EoD: o/
12:18<_ln>not linux
12:19<planetmaker>well, not really, EoD :)
12:19<planetmaker>Give me access and I might try :)
12:19<Alberth>z-MaTRiX: sure, want my bank account number?
12:19<EoD>ok, so i'll post a bug report
12:19<EoD>i'm using openttd on my sparc(/linux) with 32bit userland for a while now, but 64 bit fails to execute
12:20<EoD>With a "Bus error"
12:20<z-MaTRiX>should į refer to credits ?:)
12:22<planetmaker>nice, EoD
12:22<planetmaker>any idea why? Sounds like faulty memory access.
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12:23<EoD>no idea so far. I can assure that it don't have faulty memory, it's ECC Ram which is really fine
12:26<EoD>I think it's some combination of (64bit) memory handling and big endian (as it works fine on amd64 and 32bit sparc)
12:28<planetmaker>EoD: I didn't mean to imply that you have faulty memory :)
12:28<planetmaker>I get bus errors, if I programme wrongly and access wrong parts of memory
12:29<_ln>take the train
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12:29<EoD>yeah, but bus errors also occur if you have faulty memory. Just wanted to mention that i don't have faulty memory :)
12:29<planetmaker>ok :)
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12:30<frosch123> <- bus error
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12:31<planetmaker>haha :)
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12:40<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16404 /trunk/src/newgrf_spritegroup.h:
12:40<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#2911] (r16378): the number of spritegroups got halved when the new pool was added, which mean there weren't enough spritegroups when you have more than about a dozen ECS vectors.
12:40<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Change: increase the spritegroup pool's maximum size to something more than the
12:40<CIA-3>OpenTTD: number of real sprites that OpenTTD can handle; for example ECS has about 30
12:40<CIA-3>OpenTTD: spritegroups per real sprite. With the 'old' limit that would mean 'only' about
12:40<CIA-3>OpenTTD: 4000 real sprites worth of spritegroups could be loaded.
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12:46<Ammler>hehe, nice comment
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12:54<EoD>I'll test sparc64 with some other revisions (without ipv6, without the dynamical memory handling and such things) before i post a bugreport
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12:59<EoD>oldpool is gone? :(
13:01<Alberth>no more swimming
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13:09<Eddi|zuHause>"goes it throw out limitation?"
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13:22<@SmatZ>EoD: I am regularly testing it on sparc/solaris
13:22<@SmatZ>EoD: sparc is "sensitive" to unaligned 64bit memory access
13:23<@SmatZ>accessing unaligned 64bit ints
13:23<@SmatZ>but 32bit are no problem
13:24<_ln>"sensitive" as in it crashes?
13:25<@SmatZ>with bus error
13:26<_ln>is that a documented feature of sparc?
13:27<@SmatZ>I suppose so :)
13:27<@SmatZ>it would be strange not to have this documented
13:27<@SmatZ>I think special instruction is used to access 64bit data
13:27<EoD>i had some problems with a dual-pci-x Intel NIC which ended in a bus error, too.
13:27<@SmatZ>and it requires them to be aligned
13:27<@SmatZ>or so
13:27<Alberth>It is not uncommon, the M68000 didn't allow 32 bit value access unaligned.
13:28<@SmatZ>actually maybe most architectures require aligned access :)
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13:30<@petern>the question is where is it unaligned
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13:32<EoD>what exactly does this mean for openttd?
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: but is that than not a bug of the compiler which inserts that instruction in places where it is not safe?
13:33<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: the code is breaking the standard
13:33<@SmatZ>so it's not compiler bug
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>why would high level language code care about alignment?
13:34<_ln>C++ is not that high-level.
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, which part is the broken standard then?
13:36<EoD>join #openttd.nightly6
13:37<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: pointer to type x should be able to access type x
13:37<@SmatZ>if the programmer is messing with pointers, it's his fault the code doesn't work
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>that does not explain why the compiler inserts an alignment-critical instruction in places where he cannot guarantee alignment (and thus should insert a non-alignment-critical function)
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>and in places like this languages which allow range checking could be helpful
13:42<_ln>well what should the compiler do if you have e.g.: long long a, *b = a; b += 2;
13:42<@SmatZ>it's defined "int64_t" is aligned at 8-byte boundary
13:42<@SmatZ>for that architecture
13:43<@SmatZ>so if you change the pointer so it doesn't point to 8-byte boundary, you will break the code
13:44<Alberth>_ln: that will move b 16 byes (2*sizeof(long long))
13:45<Alberth>You'll need to create an unaligned pointer, then cast it.
13:45<_ln>Alberth: you're right.. what if we assume we had violently casted it to a char*, which i forgot to mention.
13:45<@SmatZ>_ln: undefined behaviour
13:46<_ln>hmm, or is the verb "cast, cast, cast"? it probably is. english only.
13:46<Alberth>so a crash is acceptable behavior :)
13:47<@SmatZ>A pointer to an object or incomplete type may be converted to a pointer to a different
13:47<@SmatZ>object or incomplete type. If the resulting pointer is not correctly aligned57) for the
13:47<@SmatZ>pointed-to type, the behavior is undefined.
13:47<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: ^^^
13:50<EoD>Is there any way i can help?
13:51<@SmatZ>EoD: correctly report the problem at , ideally with a way to reproduce and backtrace :)
13:52<EoD>backtrace is hard
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>just run a preprocessor that inserts an assert before each dereferencing operation?
13:55<@SmatZ>not needed, just gdb bin/openttd ; r ; crash it ; bt full
13:56<EoD>I have a 32bit userland (Sparc/Gentoo), so it isn't that easy to get gdb or at least strace to compile 64bit compatible
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>./configure --enable-debug=1 && make run-gdb
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13:58<EoD>I already tried several ways to get straces compiled with -m64, but it didn't work so farr
14:00<@petern>strace is not useful anyway
14:01<EoD>no it isn't, but it's much smaller than gdb ;)
14:06<CIA-3>OpenTTD: alberth * r16405 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Codechange: Move widget drawing code to functions to allow re-use.
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14:07<@SmatZ>EoD: I don't quite understand your problem
14:07<@SmatZ>you don't need 64bit system to use 64bit variables
14:08<@SmatZ>just install gdb the same way you installed OTTD
14:08<EoD>32bit gdb works with 64bit files?
14:09<@SmatZ>EoD: you are running 64bit OTTD on 32bit system?
14:09<EoD>I'm using a Sparc/Gentoo system which has a 64bit kernel but a 32bit userland
14:09<@SmatZ>so why would you need 64bit gdb for that?
14:09<EoD>I don't?
14:09*EoD gets confused
14:10<@SmatZ>hmm are you mixing 64bit kernel with 32bit glibc?
14:10<EoD>Usually, yes
14:11<EoD>But there someone published some doc to get multilib gcc/glibc on gentoo sparc, which allows to compile 64bit binaries
14:11<EoD>it's a kind of confusing/complicated
14:12<@petern>seems kind of pointless
14:12<EoD>read the top and the bottom
14:13<EoD>I'm not really that familiar with sparc architecture in general, but i never heard someone telling me that 64bit userland in sparc is any good
14:13<EoD>except for e.g. mysql, iptables and some similiar applications
14:14<@SmatZ>well my guess is the crash is somewhere outside OTTD
14:14<@petern>sounds flakey
14:14<EoD>hmmm. I thought about it, too. But why does ottd crash and my binaries don't?
14:14<@petern>so your userland is 32 bit
14:15<@petern>and your ottd is 32 bit?
14:15<EoD>my 32bit ottd works just fine, my 64bit ottd doesn't
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14:15<EoD>userland is 32bit, except for gcc and glibc
14:16<@petern>so basically
14:16<@petern>ignore 64 bit ottd
14:16<EoD>so i have to set up some sparc64/debian system to post bug reports about ottd?
14:17<@SmatZ>and SDL is 32bit?
14:17<EoD>it's a dedicated version without zlib
14:17<EoD>the sparc is my server/router
14:21<EoD>btw: ottd 0.4 segfaults on sparc64 (no bus error). I'll test ottd 0.5
14:22<EoD>just digging out old versions to be sure no version ever worked on sparc64 :)
14:22<@SmatZ>don't care about <0.7 and <r16405
14:22<EoD>how so? ^^
14:22<@SmatZ>it's pointless
14:22<@SmatZ>nobody will fix bugs in 0.4 branch
14:22<EoD>of course
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14:23<Eddi|zuHause>the possibility of this being a regression is very low
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14:25<EoD>Is it possible to debug a 64bit binary with a 32bit gdb (i just read about "multi-arch" at the gdb homepage)?
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14:30<@petern>you'll just have to try it
14:31<EoD>already compiling
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14:37<EoD>i'm afk until gdb finished compiling (~about tomorrow morning)
14:37<EoD>good evening everyone
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>if you have to compile anyway, why not simply compile as 64 bit?
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14:48<EoD>then i have to compile ncurses, readline and lzma-utils as 64bit, too. This reduces the change of successful compilation a lot :)
14:48<EoD>I'll try to compile gdb as 64bit if it doesn't work with the 32bit gdb version
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea why you go through the whole multiarchitecture trouble anyway
14:52<EoD>to find a way to get openttd sparc64 compatible
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15:05<EoD>i think i'm back tomorrow
15:05<EoD>bye everyone
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15:17<fonsinchen>@seen TrueBrain
15:17<@DorpsGek>fonsinchen: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 4 days, 7 hours, 40 minutes, and 17 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> you catched on on that? :)
15:18<planetmaker>he, yeah
15:18<fonsinchen>where is he?
15:18<planetmaker>both super-admins gone :P
15:18<planetmaker>on Earth
15:18<TinoDidriksen>Email them if you miss them so much?
15:18<planetmaker>taking a well-deserved break, I guess :)
15:19<fonsinchen>I don't have his email address
15:19<planetmaker>well... but you could look them up?
15:19<planetmaker>every dev has an e-mail address here
15:19<planetmaker>dunno though, if they're read :D
15:21<fonsinchen>where would I find that address? And is there anyone else I can talk to about building cargodist on the compile farm?
15:21<PeterT>is there a way to resize a scenario by converting it to a height map?
15:21<planetmaker>fonsinchen: I guess not
15:22<planetmaker>PeterT: not really...
15:22<PeterT>oh darn it
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: ever tried /msg TrueBrain <blah>?
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>people do not need to be here to be here...
15:23<fonsinchen>no, I didn't know that command
15:23<Alberth>usually people don't like that
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>and for reference, also try /whois TrueBrain
15:24<fonsinchen>He's online actually
15:26<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16406 /trunk/src/ (subsidy.cpp subsidy_func.h): -Codechange: constify parameters of CheckSubsidised()
15:28<Ammler>fonsinchen: the dir is up, if you still need a mirror for ;-)
15:32<fonsinchen>I think I'll build my own windows binaries and host them myself until TrueBrain shows up again. Unfortunately I can't give anyone SSH access on that webserver so I might use your server later. Thanks.
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15:38<Ammler>truebrain has already access there
15:39<fonsinchen>Yes, I know.
15:43<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16407 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp saveload/afterload.cpp station.cpp): -Fix [FS#2913]: set CargoPacket::source to INVALID_STATION when source station is deleted
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18:24<CIA-3>OpenTTD: frosch * r16408 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Silence a pointless newgrf debug message.
18:24<Xaroth>SILENCE! :o
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18:40<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16409 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Change: don't add empty lines/duplicates of the previous command to the console's history
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---Logclosed Sun May 24 00:00:12 2009