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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-05-28

---Logopened Thu May 28 00:00:20 2009
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00:19<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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03:28<Pizen>is there some special thing I need to do to english.txt? Building from trunk works fine, but just opening and saving that file makes the language generation fail
03:28<Pizen>it should be noted I am using windows
03:29<@Rubidium>use an editor that doesn't add a BOM to the language file maybe?
03:29<Pizen>yeah, I just did and it worked
03:29<Pizen>yet another reason to loathe notepad
03:30<Pizen>thanks, though
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03:30<Pizen>annoying how I seem to find the answers just after I've asked the questions
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03:35<planetmaker>moin :)
03:36<planetmaker>hehe @ Pizen :)
03:36<planetmaker>at least it wasn't in vain then :)
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03:38-!-mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
03:39<Pizen>also good morning!
03:39<Pizen>hmm, a friend has asked me to try battlefield 2142. So far I am not impressed
03:46<planetmaker>yes. OpenTTD is more adicting ;)
03:59<Pizen>except its effect on my dreaming is a bit disturbing
04:00<Noldo>I remember I stopped playing Popylous 3 when the little men came to my dreams
04:00<Pizen>that's "The Beginning" one, right?
04:01<Pizen>I used to play that one - not so much as to start dreaming about it though
04:05<Pizen>hmm, if hosting a multiplayer game with, say, a "no random opening of industries" patch ... do both the client and server need that, or just the server?
04:09<@petern>if it's a patch, both need it
04:09<@petern>if it's a grf, er, both need it too, but that's simpler to arrange
04:14<Pizen>well, I was just led to some client-only patches yesterday
04:15<Pizen>and thought that maybe only the person doing the maths needed it
04:17<Noldo>openttd simulation is run on the server and all the clients parallel
04:17<Noldo>random events are part of that simulation
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04:19<planetmaker>Pizen, : client-only patches are patches which do not affect the game.
04:20<planetmaker>E.g. some patches which only add features to the graphical interface (like improved sorting, re-arranging buttons and window contents)
04:21<planetmaker>But no features in terms of what is available, what can be done in general, how any object (vehicles, industries, towns,...) in the game behave.
04:21<planetmaker>those patches are - if they're clean and propper - safe for use on an unpatched server.
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04:59<Pizen>planetmaker, thanks for that
04:59<Pizen>fonsinchen, I assume you're fonsy on the forums?
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05:31<hzss>hi people
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05:42<Pizen>fonsinchen, then I think there's something wrong with the cargodist r16451 patch. Not that it matters much ...
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05:49<fonsinchen>what is wrong?
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05:53<Pizen>well, maybe the problem is windows' patch.exe, but it says the patch file is malformatted (and subsequently crashes)
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05:57<fonsinchen>patch 2.5.9 on Linux does accept it.
05:57<fonsinchen>what is the exact output?
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06:02<Pizen>just a min
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06:04<@petern>windows' patch.exe is not patch
06:04<Pizen>I know
06:05<@petern>ah, you've installed the right one
06:05<@petern>it is crap
06:05<@petern>because it blows up due to linefeed type
06:05<Pizen>yet still it might hint at some irregularity in the patch file
06:05<@petern>crlf vs lf
06:05<Pizen>well, I already unix2dos'd it
06:05<Pizen>... apparently, I redownloaded it since then
06:06<Pizen>as that did it
06:06<Pizen>well, nevermind that
06:06*Pizen comes off as such a newbie
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06:35<Pizen>planetmaker, you there?
06:35<planetmaker>hm, yes
06:36<Pizen>alright. Are you the go-to-person regarding 2CC?
06:36<Pizen>trainset thing?
06:36<planetmaker>one of them, yes.
06:37<planetmaker>probably doesn't matter here, but the lead developer is DJNekkid, though :)
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06:38<Pizen>alright. Apparently, I can't connect any MU Express wagons to the Sm2 engine
06:38<Pizen>is that something you know about?
06:39<Pizen>(MU PAX works just fine=
06:40<planetmaker>I didn't know until right now
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06:40<dragonhorseboy>how're you pizen?
06:40<planetmaker> <-- and doesn't seem to be mentioned in our list of bug reports :)
06:40<Pizen>quite alright, thanks
06:40<planetmaker>Pizen, care to add it, there, Pizen?
06:41<Pizen>you're part of openttdcoop
06:41<Pizen>sure, but
06:41<dragonhorseboy>doing ok here..just got up :P heh
06:42<dragonhorseboy>which country you from pizen? canada here
06:42<Pizen>oh, Denmark. 12:41 here
06:42<Pizen>I got up about 5 hours ago though
06:42<dragonhorseboy>denmark...heh nice
06:42<dragonhorseboy>6:42am here
06:42<planetmaker>Pizen, you just click on "new issue" and add fill in your bug report :)
06:43<dragonhorseboy>pizen you ever gone to watch your real trains? just asking
06:43<Pizen>planetmaker, I need to register first
06:43<Pizen>dragonhorseboy, every time I am at the station
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06:43<Pizen>which, incidentally, is the second largest in the country
06:44<dragonhorseboy>pizen I've seen a variety of them in magazines and websites .. I still think these old GM-built NoHab's are some interesting vintage locomotives
06:44<Pizen>I ran around drawing maps of the tracks of the entire place last year
06:44<Pizen>oh, older trains... Not really, it's not something I am especially interested in - well, not more than most others, anyway
06:44<dragonhorseboy>there's just something about a carbody diesel with cabs at both ends (compared to north america where 99% of them are either single cab or booster units .. 1% being one particular fallen flag actually had a few E units with cabs at both ends)
06:44<Pizen>we had an old locomotive just outside my flat the last place I lived, though ... let me see if I can find it
06:45*Pizen is clueless
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06:46<dragonhorseboy>pizen but either way most of the magazine sources I have is 'today's railway: europe' issues .. they often take 2-4 weeks to finally show up at the local magazine stores here but I don't really care as its better than nothing
06:46<dragonhorseboy>its the only magazine I can find for anything trains *outside* north america .. so go figure with that :p
06:46<planetmaker>hm... No anonymous bug reports? hm... I'll discuss that. You could, of course, register and become a regular tester of e.g. that train set and maybe also OpenGFX :)
06:47<Pizen>are you handling opengfx as well?
06:47<planetmaker>For the latter we just think of implementing something like a nightly build
06:47<Pizen>well, I am contemplating getting seriously into OpenTTD as more than just a player
06:47<planetmaker>That repository is on that server, too, yes.
06:47<dragonhorseboy>pizen just asking what you're clueless on?
06:47<Pizen>most of what you said about those locomotives ^^;
06:49<Pizen>planetmaker, sounds awesome. OpenGFX was the very first project I really cared for
06:49<dragonhorseboy>pizen..heh well 'carbody' was often the name for these earlier streamlined diesels (as the body was built in similar frame manner like your road car so) .. and 'booster' is just basically a whole locomotive but sometimes with no cabs (or existing one boarded up) so basically its mu-ed to another unit
06:49<dragonhorseboy>hope that helped you
06:49<Pizen>anyway, adding the issue now
06:49<Pizen>hmm, a bit
06:49<planetmaker>we as openttdcoop try to provide an easy-to-use environment for community projects... so in a certain way I might have hands in all the projects listed there... as I'm one of the server admins.
06:49<Pizen>I see
06:50<dragonhorseboy>pizen even some north america railroading terms escape me at times too tho so you're not alone in being clueless :->
06:50<planetmaker>Pizen, then it's a good time to start with OpenGFX now :)
06:50<Pizen>well, I have been lurking around the openttdcoop wiki for quite some time
06:50<planetmaker>We just made the sources available there - and additional developers / contributors on that project are highly welcome
06:50<Pizen>even had a look at some of the save games
06:50<dragonhorseboy>pizen here's one I do know tho... "soak her!' steam era quote re to plug up the brakes and dump sand as hard as it can go
06:51<dragonhorseboy>not sure why they used these two particular words but what do I know
06:51<planetmaker>And regardless what OS you have you should in principle now be able to build the current status of OpenGFX :)
06:51<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker just so i get it right.. opengfx was the base graphic replacement to the point it'll finally not need ttdx files anymore right?
06:52<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy, yes, exactly
06:52<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker I looked at some of that threads before for some sprites but hadn't looked for several months now
06:52<dragonhorseboy>hey reldred you around? :)
06:52<Pizen>planetmaker, great - I intend to be on linux again shortly. As soon as I get my laptop back, in fact.
06:53<Pizen>Right now I've just barely set up this computer for building openttd
06:53<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy, we just made yesterday an up2date list on what is missing and added it to our bug tracker so we really have everything missing or buggy at a glance now
06:53<planetmaker>Pizen, if you can build openttd you basically have everything you need
06:53<planetmaker>for grf development, too
06:54<planetmaker> <-- grab renum and grfcodec and you're set.
06:54<Pizen>"where do i put patch file to make work with openttd resources!!"
06:54<planetmaker>(add them to your search path, though)
06:54<Pizen>sorry about that
06:54<planetmaker>hehe :)
06:54<dragonhorseboy>pizen roughly how large is the station the one you go to? the one nearest here is basically a 2-floor-tall boxy building with a decent hall+seating space .. facing six 8cars-long (I guess?) tracks although usually only one or two are actually ever used
06:54<Pizen>woah woah, relax now
06:54<Pizen>I'm not just going to jump in and start developing. As said, not before I get my proper computer back
06:55<Pizen>not that big. It's about ... 12 tracks, I think, no idea how long
06:55<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker where's the up2date list out of curiousity?
06:55<Pizen>let me find a top-down
06:55<dragonhorseboy>pizen not a large city over there neither?
06:55<Pizen>it's the third largest city in Denmark
06:55<Pizen>not that that makes it large =P
06:55<planetmaker> <-- @ dragonhorseboy
06:56<planetmaker>you can filter by bug, feature (missing graphics etc) and other stuff
06:56<dragonhorseboy>ah ok
06:56<Pizen>horrible quality though
06:57<dragonhorseboy>how often are you cracking openttd yourself planetmaker? (well..not know :p )
06:57<planetmaker>you mean, compiling the source?
06:57<dragonhorseboy>compile...making sprites..whatever ;)
06:57<planetmaker>depends. Now that I started with 2cctrainset and OpenGFX it, of course, cuts on medding with the code of OpenTTD itself
06:57<dragonhorseboy>pizen heh turntable next to station .. thats quite rare over the ocean here
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06:59<Pizen>I wouldn't know about that
06:59<planetmaker>but OpenGFX is IMO important. It'd be really cool, if OpenTTD could ship with a full set of base graphics :) - no need for all those "where are those files?" questions :)
06:59<dragonhorseboy>pizen I would had rather liked that station a lot more than any that i can find within 200km from here :|
06:59<Pizen>yes, exactly the reason I cared for it
06:59<dragonhorseboy>even if the turntable is dead..who the hell care...its nice for photoing at times :D
06:59<Pizen>insisting that we use it =D
06:59<Pizen>dragonhorseboy, =/
07:00<Pizen>anyway, I'm in the middle of a game
07:00<dragonhorseboy>pizen..I've got a few photos of turntables with humans on them (humans instead of trains...thats the little joke there) :)
07:01<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker stupid question but would opengfx also resolve the replacement of (I never had any clue whatever that one file was for)
07:01<Pizen>no, that's sound
07:01<dragonhorseboy>oh... I thought sound was the other files in gm folder
07:01<Pizen>well, I hope I can help making OpenTTD available for the masses for free
07:01<dragonhorseboy>because it was erroring if I didn't have so I assumed it was to do with graphics
07:02<Pizen>well the game needs sounds as well =)
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07:02<dragonhorseboy>even with the sound settings disabled?
07:03<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy, it needs a file. But the size of the file may be 0 bytes :)
07:04<planetmaker>it contains the default sounds for trains, horns, choppers etc pp
07:04<dragonhorseboy>either way how often both of you play openttd (and if you have them.. ttdx(p) too)
07:05<planetmaker>hm... meddle around with and play are completely different things :). I don't have TTDP running though (though I probably have it somewhere)
07:05<Pizen>well, lately it's been quite a few hours every day. I created a nearly empty 512x512 scenario, and am having fun with cargodist
07:05<planetmaker>I guess I look at it in some way daily :)
07:06<dragonhorseboy>well some good time ago I used to play openttd multiplayer a bit every few days aside to random ttdx-arctic and all three climates in the patch (temperate was usually german-russia based tho, dbsetxl etc) ....
07:07<Pizen>actually, that turntable is part of the museum
07:07<Pizen>well, I play multiplayer when I find people who want to play
07:08<Pizen>I am a bit of a perfectionist though, so it can be quite difficult playing with me
07:08<dragonhorseboy>now I've pretty much only got a single modified ttdx folder alone to play once in a while at times pretty much (openttd? was having enough trouble even getting anything above 053 to behave at all so deciding multiplayer wasn't really worth it I just kinda forgot about it for most part)
07:08<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy, if I actually *play* openttd, it's on one of the coop servers, though. There are only very few exceptions to that rule :)
07:08<dragonhorseboy>no offense meant on what I said of course ;)
07:09<planetmaker>I join once a week or so our servers for longer than just having a short look what's going on.
07:10<dragonhorseboy>I still sorta remember hosting two openttd-miniin servers once (one was with peter+sacro included, heh that was a bit of fun for as long as it lasted)
07:11<dragonhorseboy>diagonal crossing, shared trackage rights, etc .. meh too much fun with these aspects
07:11<dragonhorseboy>was a bit amusing to watch two different colours of trains running on one single 2-line mainline
07:12<dragonhorseboy>have no idea where to find the mini-in's to download anymore for some time tho :|
07:12<Pizen>yeah, stuff like that is why I don't find myself on some of the multiplayer servers
07:12<Pizen>dragonhorseboy, they're discontinued
07:13<dragonhorseboy>pizen 'discontinued' as in "we wiped all existence of it out"?
07:13<dragonhorseboy>and pizen actually its not that just have to be willing to use the ingame chat feature to talk with other players about what to share and what not to
07:14<dragonhorseboy>although one annoying bug was you couldn't delete a track stub of yours own if it was on a straight piece of another player's
07:14<dragonhorseboy>so eg if you added a switch then later deleted the line .. the switch stub itself was still there unless the owner player removed it him/herself
07:15<Pizen>dragonhorseboy, I meant
07:15<dragonhorseboy>if I had known the mini-in build was going to be wiped off the web I would had not deleted my folder but aw well
07:15<Pizen>I _want_ stuff like that, stuff like cargodist
07:15<Pizen>oh I think they're still there somewhere
07:15<dragonhorseboy>oh heh
07:15<Pizen>stuff like infrastructure sharing
07:15<dragonhorseboy>btw whats cargodist so I don't get confused?
07:15<Pizen>it's the new cargodest =P
07:16<Pizen>that's cargodist
07:16<Pizen>cargo and passengers have specific destinations instead of just wanting you to take them anywhere
07:17<KingJ>Makes the game much more fun
07:17<dragonhorseboy>hmm pizen I wouldn't like to ever play one bit with that but then to our own
07:17<dragonhorseboy>I usually lay my express line more for aethestic reasons and re watching certain consists
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07:18<dragonhorseboy>so eg if its a tiny town then its just a 2-tiles platform with an old dmu serving it verus a large city having well-signalled stub station with all these fancy long trains heading in and out of the junction
07:19<dragonhorseboy>and the city stations often have 'wait for full load' on :)
07:19<KingJ>Cargodist encourages me to build large networks linking every town, and having appropriate capacity on linking lines, hub stations etc
07:20<Pizen>same, same
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07:20<dragonhorseboy>kingj I don't find any point in hubs (all the track and signalling mess they cause mainly) .. I often deal with more or less linear networks (so sometimes the city station could actually be made up of two seperate networks where the only thing shared is the station name
07:21<Pizen>I build for aesthetic reasons as well. But actually having passengers travel from place to place without me forcing them to transfer
07:21<dragonhorseboy>I always create a ton of 2-stations-only lines both for freight and passengers
07:21<Pizen>it also gives me a reason to build metro networks =)
07:22<KingJ> - That's one of the hubs from my current game, linking 4 lines together
07:22<Pizen>but I think for me, the most important aspect is efficiency. I _never_ make any turns that slow down my trains
07:23<KingJ>Neither do I
07:23<Pizen>usually I just use 8 wagons though, so it's not that difficult
07:23<KingJ>I have 10, including power car
07:23<dragonhorseboy>and beside the way it goes is..if you want to get from the city to the little coastline town you'll have to just wait for the infrequent old lone dmu to finally coast into the station .. want go from NE city to S city? rush to catch that Oriental Express doubleheaded train before it runs away till next one comes back 'in several weeks')
07:24<dragonhorseboy>and if you're wondering why its doubleheaded..thats because usually its eg two BR112 with at least 16-20 cars (and yes they do almost fill up the whole trains most times)
07:24<KingJ>I have long lines with trains stopping at every station, but also some express trains that only stop at the larger ones
07:24<dragonhorseboy>kingj..well that wouldn't quite work here because you can't fit 20 cars onto just two tiles .. hence the old short or self powered consists being assigned to that :D
07:25<Pizen>I just connect up. Busses to metro stations to main stations to intercity stations
07:25<dragonhorseboy>and because these little trains are often only 60-120km/h compared to 110-200km/h for the express .. thats where the requirement for seperate lines comes into play :)
07:25<Pizen>well that makes sense
07:26<KingJ>heh, all trains have a TL of 5 tiles, as do the stations
07:26<dragonhorseboy>pizen and one more thing about that too...
07:26<KingJ>But the speed issue is somewhat annoying
07:26<KingJ>Which is why I always isolate freight and passenger networks
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07:26<dragonhorseboy>most of the little towns .. some of the good ones are wrapped around or on top of mountains so the branch line often have to make some twisting and quick bridge spans to get to their place :)
07:27<dragonhorseboy>not even a place a large express train would want to try run on..not without needing too much power to be able to keep up some speed uphill
07:27<KingJ>That's the current network
07:27<KingJ>The UK map is fairly flat, any hills I can climb using gradual increases
07:27<dragonhorseboy>kingj..I've actually had freight and passengers mixed together then again dbsetxl have branchline passenger and modern freights running at about same top speed limit
07:28<KingJ>I use the UK Renewal Set
07:28<dragonhorseboy>not ran any mixed's tho because its very rare that any industries are located next to towns at same time..go figure
07:29<KingJ>I'd like to run mixed, the whole "one big network" concept, but without load balancing - all my lines are 2 track, one for each direction - it's not feasable
07:29<dragonhorseboy>I did sometimes have a factory or so ending up within station radius and so running one train with eg engine-goods-goods-goods-mail-passenger tho (yeah the goods were the only profit earner..mail+passenger didn't even earn any $ return at all)
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07:29<dragonhorseboy>often it would leave the factory/town station with say a full load of 60 goods but only 3 bags of mail and 7 passengers
07:29<dragonhorseboy>you get the idea there
07:30<KingJ>uhoh mixed trains
07:30<KingJ>I always stay away from them
07:31<KingJ>No idea, I just do heh
07:31<dragonhorseboy>heh ok
07:32<dragonhorseboy>btw I used to try the ukrailset before but kinda started losing some interest after it was updated and then finally I just decided to drop it and leave dbsetxl as the default trainset for temperate anyway
07:33<KingJ>I only use a few trains from it anyway, Pendolino for stopping trains, Eurostar for express trains
07:33<dragonhorseboy>was having some difficulity with the updated version breaking too many things in older gamesaves including suddenly locomotives not being able to assist their trains anymore (mainly with between diesel pushers on underpowered dmu's)
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07:35<dragonhorseboy>one often example I had was hmm...let me check...
07:35<Pizen>hmm, my electrical railwails cost upwards of 20 times as much to build as standard rails. Any idea what I enabled?
07:35<Pizen>hiya, z-MaTRiX
07:39<dragonhorseboy>cammell(front)-coach-(rear)-cammell(front)-coach-coach-(rear) on almost every single passenger lines but with two consists having a 4-4-0 Express piloting them and a third one getting a recently-sidelined 2-6-4T because otherwise they only could just crawl at 10-20km/h most of the way on two short to-town-and-back hilly lines
07:40<dragonhorseboy>the updated version suddenly wouldn't let my gamesave continue with that kind of makeup anymore :/
07:41<dragonhorseboy>funny enough in dbsetxl I've almost never ever seen any need to add helpers to trains because most of them are sufficently powered on their own (beside using double units on the long passenger tains like I mentioned re BR112's)
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07:41<dragonhorseboy>anyway kingj thats the end of my little ranting :)
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07:42<KingJ>I've never needed to add additional power cars over the default
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07:43<dragonhorseboy>well I've found the uk dmu often not even able to make much speed over certain lines compared to older steam power
07:44<dragonhorseboy>eg 2-6-4T with four coaches actually achive noticeable faster time than a single cammell with just one coach added in
07:44<dragonhorseboy>hence why I often had to bank these *** dmus with ex-retired steam power :|
07:46<dragonhorseboy>at least the C321's actually seem to usually have enough power themself.. i could assign them to three coaches each unit and they'll still run more or less full tilt uphill
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07:47<dragonhorseboy>anyway need to go for now :/
07:47<KingJ>The few hills that I do climb, I ensure they have a shallow gradient so everything runs full speed up them
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07:51<Pizen>yeah, that's the way I do it as well. Not much beats watching a TGV at 337 (I believe) km/h do it's full round at top speed
07:52<Pizen>it's a bit easier for metro trains though ... 99 km/h on monorail, pff =P
07:52<Pizen>only 90° turns would kill that, and who uses those?
07:54<Pizen>what is the best way to remove an industry? deplete it? (ECS)
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08:29<Pizen>evidently not, as its "sand left" just keeps increasing
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08:47<Rexxars>Send for the man.
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09:02<Pizen>sand left: 0 tonnes
09:02<Pizen>but it's still there T_T
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>it's just an estimate
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09:05<dihedral>Pizen, you dont have to provide patch files for all various line ending styles!
09:05<Pizen>I do, actually
09:06<Pizen>my patch won't take unix
09:06<dihedral>you do not actually
09:06<Pizen>but I don't want to distribute patches in DOS-format exclusively
09:06<dihedral>just create an svn diff
09:06<Pizen>I do, using TortoiseMerge or whatever
09:06<dihedral>or use any other version controll system
09:07<Pizen>the thing is, I don't want the net littered with DOS-format files
09:07<Pizen>yet I still need those kinds of line endings to patch on this computer
09:07<dihedral>and IFF someone has an issue with the lineending, they can convert it themselves
09:07<Pizen>as soon as I get my laptop up and running, expect unix-only patches
09:07<dihedral>if they cannot, they should not even be patching the source
09:08<Pizen>well that's true, but say 50 people need to do that. Isn't it easier if I do it once?
09:08<@Rubidium>just don't bother too much about the default tools for Windows
09:08<Pizen>see, that's the thing
09:09<@Rubidium>they are (almost) all annoyingly self-centered
09:09<Pizen>the patch files my diff generator gives me are DOS format
09:09<Pizen>so I have to convert anyway
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09:09<Pizen>when I get back to linux, and get proper line endings by default ... well, yeah
09:09<Pizen>it'd be a hassle for me to distribute both kinds
09:09<+glx>normal patch tools create files with \n not with \r\n
09:10<Pizen>(or at least a bit of extra work)
09:10<@Rubidium>Pizen: who cares? My patch applies them as happily (or even more happy if 'I did CRLF->LF conversion' output counts as happy) as LF files
09:10<Pizen>hah, well
09:10<@Rubidium>just distribute what your prefered 'diff' tools gives you
09:10<Pizen>that'd be unix
09:10<+glx>and normal patch tools accept any valid patch (like git/hg diff)
09:10<Pizen>but I'm not using my preferred diff tool
09:10<Pizen>I'm using patch.exe, ONLY accepting CRLF
09:11<+glx>looks like you are using gnuwin32 patch.exe
09:11<@Rubidium>yay for the backward compatible not backward compatible OS ;)
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09:11<+glx>msys patch.exe has no problems with EOL
09:12<Pizen>then I bet I am using the gnuwin32 one, yeah. I don't know, I'm not keen on spending any amount of time setting up this computer, I just took whatever opendns gave me
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09:19<KingJ>Adjusting signalling live is never a good idea...
09:21<dihedral>Pizen, please tell me you dont compare 2 source directories :-P
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09:34<Pizen>I don't?
09:34<Pizen>wait, what do you mean?
09:35<Pizen>I generate it from trunk -> tortoisesvn -> create patch
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09:49<dihedral>well there you go, then that's your patch file, with the line ending it uses
09:50<dihedral>no need to create 5 other files that are exactly the same apart from the line endings
09:50<dihedral>well - i just wanted to tell you that you only need to create one, makes things simpler for you - of course you can do what you want!
09:52<dihedral>hehe Rubidium :-)
10:01<Pizen>yeah, it does make it simpler, but I dislike the line endings it creates!
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10:30<Pizen>sidelinehubs get quite large when not allowing turns of less than a length of 4
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10:30<Pizen>wait, make that ... uh
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10:31<Pizen>what do you call a T-intersection of mainlines?
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10:40<@Belugas>a labyrinth
10:42<@petern>is bowie in it?
10:43<@Belugas>ho.. he's "down in it"
10:43<Pizen>aah =D
10:44<Pizen>well that was that. Now to upgrade the hub to electrical railway. £24 million
11:02<Spizania>I really have an urge to write an AI at some point, perhaps over the summer
11:04<Spizania>problem is, I have a reasonable amount of programming experience, but its not in C
11:05<+glx>it's not a problem
11:05<planetmaker>AIs are written in squirrel...
11:05<Spizania>yes squirrel
11:05<Spizania>the language chosen specifically for its similarity to C
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11:05<planetmaker>I wondered today whether it might not fit an AI just as well as a bigger newgrf project to be tackled by more than one person alone...
11:06<+glx>if you know how to program you can do in any language
11:06<@petern>except perl
11:06<@petern>or python
11:06<Spizania>I mostly did BASIC back in the days before Windows 95, in Dos, some VBasic with my school for my GNVQ, and a little bit of other scripts for AI like AoE2
11:06<+glx>algorithm are algorithm :)
11:06<planetmaker>There's plenty of AI around... and attention which some get combined into a joint AI might make them even better :) Especially the train part.
11:07<@petern>perl isn't algorithms, it's regex
11:07<Spizania>I fancy making something specialising in one of the big industrial chains (which are complicated when im using PBI)
11:07<Spizania>The Copper to Factory chain in tropical or something
11:07<Spizania>that needs a lot of industries, and with stockpiling it becomes a challenge to get everything balanced
11:09<Spizania>Gah, now im thinking about how to lay out the routes the most effectively
11:09<Spizania>or well, the way I would do it, but the AI might need more optimisation than that, im not a quick builder
11:10<dihedral>Spizania, make a learning AI :-P
11:11<Spizania>I'm sorry, I can't do that Dave
11:11<+glx>hal :)
11:12<dihedral>who the **** is Dave?
11:12<Spizania>Reference to 2001
11:12<Spizania>Computer goes mad and wont let Dave back into the spaceship
11:12<dihedral>you poor sod :-P
11:13<Spizania>well, it doesnt go mad really, but its given two sets of conflicting orders for the mission and kills the crew to allow it to furfill both sets
11:13<KingJ> :P
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11:40<Spizania>gah, the pathfinder confuses me
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11:50<fonsinchen>Is a newgrf allowed to crash openttd? I suspect that a particular newgrf contains invalid sounds and that leads to a crash. Would the crash be the newgrf's or openttd's fault?
11:52<dragonhorseboy>hard to tell..isn't newgrf supposed to refuse to let a buggy grf load at main screen in first place or am I wrong?
11:53<Yexo>a buggy newgrf shouldn't crash openttd
11:53<Yexo>in fact, I'd go so far as to say that all openttd crashes are openttd's fault
11:54<dragonhorseboy>heh :)
11:56<fonsinchen>I have a savegame here where the german road vehicles grf produces a starting sound for the "Großer Hecht" tram of which the file_size is seemingly random.
11:56<fonsinchen>I haven't found out where it gets set, yet.
11:59<fonsinchen>Unfortunately that's hard to debug as "seemingly random" means most times it fits into my RAM.
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12:00<Yexo>I can at least confirm the crash with that vehicle
12:01<fonsinchen>Uh, nice.
12:01<fonsinchen>With plain trunk?
12:02<fonsinchen>It crashes in SetBankSource when trying to allocate memory for the sound. But only if the random value is large enough.
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12:03<fonsinchen>Unfortunately my savegame is for cargodist and so I can't produce a bug report with it.
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12:14<fonsinchen>OK, I have trunk savegame for it now. :)
12:18*Belugas wonders how Patch wuld react to this grf/situation
12:18<dragonhorseboy>throw a fist of random codes as usual?
12:18<dragonhorseboy>hehe :)
12:19<Yexo>openttd detects correct that the audio format is invalid, but never marks the sound entry as invalid
12:20<Yexo>so when later the sound is used, the size is read from uninitialized memory (size was never set)
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12:23<fonsinchen>so, shall I post the bug report I'm just writing or have you already solved it anyway?
12:23<Yexo>I've just solved it
12:24<fonsinchen>OK, then I won't post.
12:28<Spizania>whats Cargodist like?
12:30<fonsinchen>It distributes your the generated cargo among the available destinations in a sensible way and prompts you to provide the necessary infrastructure.
12:30<Spizania>so it prompts network building?
12:30<Spizania>now that is fun
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12:32*dragonhorseboy thinks mine lines are already sensible enough but :p
12:32<Spizania>I wish mines produced more stuff though
12:33<dragonhorseboy>spizania hm? I find them just making enough for me but then i guess that depends on how far you were delivering them to tho so .. no comments
12:33<Spizania>Maybe im using too longer trains or something
12:33<Spizania>but i have mines that cant support more than one train
12:33<dragonhorseboy>spizania.. <40 tonnes you mean?
12:34<Spizania>yes or so
12:34<Spizania>its infuriating
12:35<dragonhorseboy>I've seen these once in a while .. I just look for any other coal routes I had and if there's any nearby somehow then I slap in it as a mid-way halt
12:35<dragonhorseboy>solves the problem for me ;)
12:36<dragonhorseboy>kinda fun to see one coal train heading out of powerplant and having several tonnes of coal before it arrives back at the coal mine station due to this little side detour
12:36<Pizen>planetmaker, a word about the 2cc metro set
12:37<dragonhorseboy>spizania either way what kind of coal trains do you usually run? (rough capacity and/or the power used)
12:37<Spizania>most of the time mine dont have others around
12:37<Pizen>planetmaker, wait, no, nevermind that
12:37<Spizania>it varies, but normaly I got for 5/6 square trains
12:38<Spizania>when im using the North American Renewal Set I normally use the "Standard Five" or somesuch
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>i rather have many low-producing mines spread in an area
12:39<Spizania>1150hp for 240 tonnes of cargo
12:39<dragonhorseboy>spizania hm for me it varies
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12:40<Pikka>"Standard Five" would be UKRS, Spizania? :P
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>if only i could combine alpine and pbi...
12:40<Pizen>jesus christ inflation
12:41<dragonhorseboy>from 100 tonnes over a short distance by mean of chugging tank steam locomotive up to mountain-doubleheaded 720 tonnes crocodiles for long mine-to-plant map distance (track often being bit longer than that heh)
12:41<Pizen>ONE piece of electrical rail: £74,360
12:41<dragonhorseboy>I can't recall going past 720 tonnes per train yet .. probably due to sensible station lengths
12:41<Spizania>UK RS
12:41<Xaroth>in the current ottdc game we're running 1200 passenger/train lines
12:42<Xaroth>trains are huge tho
12:42<Spizania>I only worked out how to double head properly recently
12:42<Spizania>It turns out I had a GRF conflict for ages between PBI and the Stock industries somehow
12:42<dragonhorseboy>xaroth heh the only actual long trains I've ran was with 2 engines + about 16-20 total mail&passenger cars for decidated express services ... varying powers under electric wire (2x BR112, BR160, Tiger, etc)
12:42<Spizania>Factories that wouldnt let stations accept Plastic, despite saying they needed it
12:43<dragonhorseboy>otherwise most things usually are quite shorter to about 1-6 tiles long in dbsetxl useage
12:43<CIA-3>OpenTTD: yexo * r16455 /trunk/src/newgrf_sound.cpp: -Fix: don't crash when a newgrf has sounds in an unsupported sound format
12:43<Spizania>Im using little boxcars for NARS
12:43<dragonhorseboy>hmm you know what..i forgot how much mail&passengers twenty cars would had held now.. :S
12:43<Spizania>and im upset there aint an OBB trainset
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12:44<Yexo>fonsinchen: thanks for the report, fixed in 16455
12:45<Spizania>hhhm, PBI AI specialising in the Copper chain on tropics, but thats a nasty chain if the map doesnt cooperate
12:45<dragonhorseboy>spizania heh do you ever play in arctic climate?
12:45<Spizania>yes, my current game is arctic
12:45<Spizania>im trying to build a passenger network entirely above the snowline, with it set to 9
12:45<Spizania>its rather amusing
12:46<dragonhorseboy>heh I play the three climates at different times ... and temperate has snowline set as well but it rarely appears at all anyhow
12:46<Spizania>it does?
12:47<planetmaker>hm Pizen? what shall I or shall I not mind?
12:47<Spizania>Oh, for the days pre-TTD, when I had trains on the Martian graphics set consisting of a steam loco and three wagons
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12:47<Spizania>pre-Monodirectional signalling
12:47<planetmaker>hehe, I guess the prices? :D
12:48<dragonhorseboy>for most part its dbsetxl+russiaplane+lv3.5 (lv4 glitches up the sprites limit so meh) in temperate ... lv4 + older Nars in arctic ... and kinda split between either Pineapple or Tropical (the original one plus a bit changes of my own) grf sets in tropical
12:49<Spizania>what about Candyland?
12:49<dragonhorseboy>not going mention the heapload of other small or building grfs as its too long to mention :P
12:50<dragonhorseboy> there EVEN an actual grf set for that climate? ;)
12:50<Spizania>I wanted Alpine, but it doesnt work with PBI, so it had to go
12:51<dragonhorseboy>I rather like the default industries + cargoset in temperate .. admittly tropical does have some modifications for the better tho
12:51<dragonhorseboy>arctic's default as its already difficult enough to try handle the whole tree-paper and farm chains at times :P
12:51<dragonhorseboy>especially with so much slopes in the way
12:52<Spizania>I spawned an arctic map with no industries, and now theres only one food processing plant and a few farms
12:52<Spizania>not where my above snowline network is
12:52<Spizania>which is annoying
12:53<@Belugas>makes the game harder :)
12:53*Belugas likes
12:53<dragonhorseboy>I wouldn't had cared and just waited for the fund to build a new line putting all 3 farms to the processing plant then build a single line that joins up with the above-snow network
12:54<Spizania>the plant will never provide enough food to grow all the towns htough
12:54<dragonhorseboy>who cares... food profit is food profit to the bottom line ;)
12:54<dragonhorseboy>anyway have to go for now.. lunch's ready :/
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12:58<Yexo><planetmaker> I wondered today whether it might not fit an AI just as well as a bigger newgrf project to be tackled by more than one person alone... <- that is a good idea for sure
12:58<Yexo>I had some discussion with GeekToo last summer to start working together, but nothing came from it
12:58<Spizania>to be honest what interests me about the AI system is laying out the network and what cargo goes where and at what rate
12:58<Spizania>rather than making it build things
12:59<Pizen>well, that was misleading. Even though the road vehicle stop limit counts both lorry and bus stations, trying to place ie. a bus station gives the message "too many bus stations". Shouldn't this be "too many road vehicle stops" or similar? That, or disconnect the limit so they each have their own.
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12:59<Pizen>also, wall of text
12:59<@Belugas>Wall Of Sound
12:59<@Belugas>Wall Of Flowers
12:59<Spizania>im not sure Pikka intended for me to doublehead electric-interurbans, but why not?
13:00<@Belugas>The Wall
13:00<@Belugas>Wall you come tonight?
13:00<@Belugas>Wall is this??
13:00<@Belugas>I'm the Wallruss
13:00<Pizen>stop it!
13:00<Pizen>stop making me laugh out loud!
13:01<@Belugas>Hey babe, take a Wall on he Wall side
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>strange, i do not understand a single word
13:01<planetmaker>Yexo: a pity. Your two AI work combined certainly would be something :)
13:01<Pizen>gcc -Wall
13:01*Belugas is gone on a meeting
13:02<planetmaker>enjoy as much as you can, Belugas
13:02<@Belugas>ho... last one... "And the WALL of death is lowered in Timer Square"
13:02<@Belugas>yeah :P
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>"mister gorbatchov, tear down this wall"?
13:03<Yexo>planetmaker: the problem at that time was more that we had quite different view on how an AI should work internally
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13:04<Eddi|zuHause>the last time i played with AIs they had two problems:
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>a) no way to decide from the description if this AI is any good, or how hard it would be
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>b) two players of the same "personality" always built the same routes
13:05<planetmaker>Yexo: that for sure has to be settled before :)
13:05<planetmaker>But I guess similar decisions have to be made for newgrfs: what do you want to include, how to structure pices etc pp
13:06<Yexo>anyway, I'm still interested, but I don't want to invest to much time setting it all up
13:06<planetmaker>hehe :)
13:06<planetmaker>Does any of the AI have a publicly accessible repository?
13:07<Spizania>I was trying to work out how to build main line+ branch networks using the AI reliably, I didnt have much luck
13:07<Yexo>at least one AI has
13:07<planetmaker>I mean... that'd be one of the first steps.
13:07<planetmaker>Let me guess: either wright AI or Admiral?
13:07<Yexo>neither of those two
13:07<planetmaker>wright AI is though, with planes only, IMO not that much advanced :)
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13:09<Yexo>there are several AIs on google code
13:09<planetmaker>it's a bit my impression sometimes that the AI wheel - so to speak - is re-invented quite often.
13:10<planetmaker>ah, there, ok :)
13:10<Yexo>it's indeed true that much of the code is written multiple times
13:11<Pizen>hmm. My trains are staying in station at 100% loaded for months
13:11<Yexo>but luckily every AI so far has been publish under gpl, so reusing code is not a problem
13:11<planetmaker>I'm in no position to start it, and I personally don't want to develop it, but some kind of community AI seems IMO like a nice idea.
13:12<planetmaker>Yeah, the AI authors have a better sense of re-usability than most graphics artists around :S
13:12<Pikka>psht :P
13:12<Yexo>it's not only that, it's more that uploading to bananas forces you to pick a licence
13:12<planetmaker>hehe :)
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13:12<Pikka>no it doesn't, Yexo
13:13<planetmaker>Yexo: well, yes. But look how many projects have a CC-ND license.
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13:13<Yexo>well, it forces you to think about picking a licence
13:13<planetmaker>Though the japan set must not. They are GPL. Earlier versions are. So this one has to be, too
13:13<Yexo>yes, but they have some unclear statements on their website
13:14<Yexo>1. it's gpl 2. you have to ask permission to modify it (or something like that)
13:14<planetmaker>yes. It's GPL but ask us... :P
13:14<planetmaker>For 2cc set we made quite strange construct now: nfo is GPL, images are CC-ND
13:14<planetmaker>not happy, but better than just ND
13:15<Pikka><planetmaker> Though the japan set must not. They are GPL. Earlier versions are. So this one has to be, too <-- ermmm, no?
13:15<Yexo>at least it helps other set authors who want to reuse (part of) the nfo
13:15<planetmaker>Pikka: yes. Once GPL, always GPL
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13:15<Yexo>planetmaker: that's not exactly true
13:15<Pikka>planetmaker: but they still own the copyright
13:15<Prof_Frink>planetmaker: Not if all copyright holders decide to change it
13:16<Yexo>since I'm the only author of AdmiralAI, I can publish the next version under any licence I like
13:16<Prof_Frink>Of course, you can fork the last GPL version if you want
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13:16<planetmaker>hm... don't tell them then :P
13:16<Yexo>hello pavel1269 and Wolf01
13:16<planetmaker>though I'm not sure all original authors are still there and would agree to a change.
13:16<planetmaker>alas. bad topic ;)
13:17<Pizen>this is weird;
13:18<Pizen>the trains will leave eventually, but it takes anywhere between 1 day and 6 months
13:18<Yexo>the signals before each platform shouldn't be there
13:18<Yexo>that has nothing to do with long loading times
13:19<Pizen>I know, I put them there for looks
13:19<Pizen>they don't do anything
13:19<planetmaker>signals for "looks"?!?
13:19<Yexo>they will as soon as your station is full
13:19<Yexo>but I assume you know that :p
13:19<Pizen>yes, red means platform is taken
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13:20<Pizen>no, they won't - there's PBS signals in front
13:20<Pizen>yeah, I see
13:20<Pizen>anyway, that shouldn't be the problem
13:21<Pizen>but with long loading times, do they stay at the station after 100%, or does it take longer to reach 100%?
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>why is it that each time i see an opengfx screenshot it gets immediately clear why i hate it?
13:22<Pizen>I have no idea
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13:22<Yexo>Pizen: that depends on some setting
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>besides, your station is hopelessly overdimensioned
13:23<Yexo>Pizen: is "Load vehicles gradually on or off? (it's under Stations->Cargo handling)
13:24*Pizen looks
13:24<Yexo>if it's off, please turn it on and see whether that improves it
13:25<Pizen>it is on
13:25<Pizen>they DO load gradually
13:25<Pizen>doesn't take long to go from 0% to 100%
13:25<Pizen>and then they just sit there
13:25<Yexo>no idea then, maybe if you upload a savegame
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>trains staying at a station usually means you have a timetable set
13:26<Pizen>I did that with the earliest trains. Please shoot me now
13:27<Pizen>can't believe I forgot that
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13:33<Westie>Pizen: Well done, you just forgot that :p
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13:35<CIA-3>OpenTTD: yexo * r16456 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: -Fix (r16429): forgot to update regression test
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13:56<Spizania>I should not have set Heavy Weight Train multiplier to 5
13:56<Spizania>now im going to have doublehead this grain train :(
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14:12<Eddi|zuHause>i would like to do 15 or 20 tile freight trains, but i have no long passenger trains to go with them...
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>passenger trains with more than ~12 wagons look weird
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>they just do...
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>passenger wagons should be twice as long...
14:14<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: because those DB set question mark trains are ugly
14:14<Spizania>it looks crazy using UKRS too
14:14<fonsinchen>ah, you're talking about DB set.
14:15<fonsinchen>It looks fine with tropic refurbishment set. But I'm probably the only one playing that.
14:15<Spizania>and standard 9 coach 225 settups look silly short
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14:24<planetmaker>hm... would it in principle break much (anything?) if there were trains with wagons of tile length?
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14:25<planetmaker>can the shortening of wagons (action 0, property 21) also work the other way: make it longer?
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>vehicles longer than a halftile could not go on diagonal rails
14:27<planetmaker>why not?
14:27<KingJ>because they are half tile
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>because that could break collision detection and stuff
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14:29<planetmaker>bit different topic: hm... is there somewhere a comprehensive list of the maximum which OpenTTD allows? HouseIDs, station classes,...?
14:29<Yexo>I don't think so
14:29<Yexo>except in the source code :p
14:30<planetmaker>bridgeIDs, currency properties, objects? DaleStan misses those info on the newgrf wiki :)
14:30<planetmaker>And a renum which actually accepts openttd's improved ranges would be great :)
14:30<planetmaker>he... ok
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14:30<planetmaker>i feared so :)
14:31<Yexo>but grep "typedef Pool<" should give you all info you need
14:31<Yexo>maybe not all, but a lot
14:32<@Rubidium>Yexo: most spec stuff isn't in pools
14:32<Yexo>I just figured that out
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14:44<Spizania>hhm, should it really cost money to remove catenary from electrified lines?
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14:52<Alberth>Spizania: yes, the copper price doesn't cover the removal costs
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15:11<De_Ghosty>i want another suggestion :o
15:13<@petern>just beat it
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15:15<@Belugas>De_Ghosty: signals on ... trees!
15:16<De_Ghosty>i get a always red light
15:16<De_Ghosty>with this weird signal combination
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15:16<@Belugas>not a red light... it's an apple :S
15:16<De_Ghosty>probably is :o
15:22<_ln>Bjarni! .. no, just an apple.
15:22<Sacro>:o Bjarni is here?
15:23<_ln>not that i know of
15:23<frosch123>Sacro: does your client highlight on "bjarni"?
15:24<@Belugas>Sacro, is there anything else than your client which reacts on "Bjarni" ?
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15:27<Prof_Frink>Belugas: Yes there is.
15:27<Prof_Frink>Sacro: You just lost the game.
15:28<@Belugas>too much excitment on his side, i'd say :)
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15:29<Sacro>Prof_Frink: ><
15:30<welshdragon>Prof_Frink: >:(
15:30<frosch123>Belugas: seems sacro has us on his ignore list :)
15:30<frosch123>so we can safely make fun of him :p
15:30*Sacro is sad
15:30<@Belugas>too much kicking, i'd say :)
15:30*Sacro is beng bullied
15:31<@Belugas>ben non, mon vieux, ben non...
15:31<Prof_Frink>frosch123: You can make fun of him to his face.
15:33<frosch123>yeah, that might a an acceptable option
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15:58<@Belugas>cric crac booooing!!
15:59*Belugas 's brain is on the loose!
16:00*Prof_Frink grabs Annette and chases after it
16:00<Spizania>bah, theres no simple point to point delivery method :(
16:00<Spizania>and you cna have town owned tram tracks?
16:02-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>maybe through some bankrupcy mechanisms?
16:05<planetmaker>behold, people of OpenTTD :) We follow the advice of our grand masters and introduced a nightly for OpenGFX. Now found at
16:05<planetmaker>daily updating at 19h CEST
16:06<Spizania>probably, just found some linking two towns together on my map
16:06<Spizania>after AdmiralAI crashed
16:06<frosch123>[22:03] <Eddi|zuHause> maybe through some bankrupcy mechanisms? <- afaik they become property of noone, i.e. everyone can remove them without insulting the town :p
16:06<planetmaker>feel free to download and test it. Our bug database is found at
16:07<planetmaker>(it's not that much advanced over the current version of OpenGFX, though :P )
16:07<frosch123>but it has a compile log :o
16:07<planetmaker>uhm, yes?
16:12-!-kkb110 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:25<Pizen>awsum thx, planetmaker
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16:27<Ammler>[22:07] <planetmaker> (it's not that much advanced over the current version of OpenGFX, though ) <-- no black boxes for monolev anymore ;-)
16:28-!-TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
16:28<@Belugas>indeed, swallowed by black holes
16:30-!-Klanticus [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
16:30*Prof_Frink pushes Belugas into a black hole
16:31-!-Belugas was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [vanished in black hole. Now you see me, now you don't]
16:32<@petern>monolev, eh?
16:32<@Rubidium>why not magrail? It's more cool?
16:32<@Rubidium>or monorail and maglev? It's more clear!
16:33-!-Belugas [~belugas@] has joined #openttd
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16:33<@Belugas>missed me?
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>wow, you scared me
16:34<Forked>hello, sir and/or madam Belugas
16:35<@Belugas>for you, that will be "My Lord Belugas"
16:35<@Rubidium>Belugas: even after 400 hours they won't miss you (based on previous experience of the feedback in this channel)
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: did you realise how often people tried to talk to you in here?
16:36<Forked>Belugas: get off your horse :p
16:36-!-racetrack [] has quit [Quit: no. just, no.]
16:36<@SmatZ>hello Rubidium!
16:36*Belugas is so much not into popularity contest ;)
16:37<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: talk? I'd go for none based on the number of PMs I got
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>well, several times people tried to comment on commits of yours, and then realised that you were not in here :p
16:41<planetmaker>Rubidium: there's a certain barrier between pm and chat up here :)
16:42<planetmaker>especially as you're know to be present 24/7 from previous experience :)
16:43<@Rubidium>then previous experience would've shown that I don't always read backlogs, even when I'm highlighted
16:44<@Rubidium>and that what they say might very well not reach me, kinda UDP-ish
16:45<planetmaker>well. But chance are that it does :)
16:45<@Rubidium>when I'm not in this channel there still is a chance
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16:46<@Rubidium>a 0 chance, but it's still a chance
16:46<Pizen>time for my first code change
16:47<planetmaker>hehe @ Rubidium. Even events with a probability of zero may occur, eh? :)
16:48<Pizen>speaking of probability, I'm fairly sure most things have a value of non-zero
16:48<Pizen>yet quite close, if there is such a thing
16:48<planetmaker>Hm... given calculus rules, then only an infinite amount of queries might trigger a response ;)
16:48<@Rubidium>planetmaker: a bank account with 0 EUR on it is still a bank account, right?
16:48<Pizen>a bank account is also more than its balance
16:48<planetmaker>Pizen: most things have a value of exactly zero :)
16:49<@Rubidium>planetmaker: a DOS usually gets a response
16:49<Pizen>not in probability
16:49<planetmaker>but the integral over an infinite amount of such zeros is finte ;)
16:49<planetmaker>*finite ;)
16:49<Pizen>and yeah, I agree most things have a value of zero - was just thinking quantum mechanics and how there IS a probability of a sperm whale coming into existence right here, right now
16:50<Pizen>*a non-zero probability
16:50<Pizen>freaked my mum out, that
16:50<planetmaker>well. for all practical purposes it is.
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>in school we once calculated the probability of a 1kg metal ball jumping up 1m by itself
16:51<planetmaker>and even quantum theory won't violate the 2nd fundament theorem of thermodynamics
16:51<Pizen>I never implied it would
16:51<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I guess your calculators failed :)
16:51<Pizen>Eddi|zuHause, sounds quite interesting. Were you able to produce a result?
16:51<Pizen>I meant, surely the 10^307 isn't enough to express that?
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, the theory is that all atoms swing in the same direction and have a spontaneous loss of temperature, the resulting energy being transformed into kinetic energy
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16:53<Pizen>temperature is just random kinetic energy though?
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>and this "randomness" can synchronize
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>by a probability of > 0
16:53<Pizen>but that isn't quantum mechanics, just ... thermodynamics, right?
16:53<Pizen>(I never did listen much when it came to thermodynamics)
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>i did not say it had anything to do with quantum mechanics
16:54<Pizen>nono, I'm just trying to understand it myself here ^^;
16:54<@Rubidium>ofcourse to give a chance you need to know all state of the 'external' world
16:54<Pizen>demon, etc.
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>well, there are some abstractions to be made :p
16:55<@Rubidium>gravity, viscocity, magnetism, ...
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>9.81m/s^2, vacuum
16:55<Pizen>I bet you can approximate it ... but then again, approximating the probability would usually result in 0
16:55<planetmaker>Pizen: even without...
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's easier to compare it with probabilities of the same range
16:56<@Rubidium>I'd say that there is a chance the chance is 0
16:56<Pizen>in other news; where is that fancy grouped finances window hidden?
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>like... the probability of sentient life outside earth
16:56<@Rubidium>Pizen: in OOCalc?
16:57<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: now, that is something which is probably higher than this bottle here suddenly jumping into thing air :)
16:57<Pizen>well there's still a lot of variables with unknown values in that, Eddi, no?
16:57<Pizen>Rubidium, uh?
16:57<Pizen>no, in OpenTTD sources?
16:57*Pizen hasn't gotten half used to the code base yet
16:57<@Rubidium>grep -ri finance src --exclude-dir .svn | grep -i window
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>Pizen: there were various patches dealing with the finance window
16:58<Pizen>that was mean
16:58<Pizen>Eddi, I know
16:58<Pizen>wait, you suggest I just look in them?
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>no, please ignore them
16:59<Pizen>will do
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>they contain no valuable information
16:59<Pizen>I'll also delete the sources and start over myself
16:59<Pizen>that'll be easier
16:59<Pizen>expect a 3D better OpenTTD tomorrow!
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17:02<@Rubidium>3D better? DIII times better I would've understood but that I don't get
17:02<Pizen>3D and BETTER and faster and more efficient
17:03<Pizen>I recently read suggestions about making it 3D
17:03<Pizen>and found it funny
17:04<Pizen>I was once approached by a friend of mine's brother, as he knew I make websites. He asked me to help him make one, and I said "sure, what do you want?"
17:04<Pizen>"Something like Runescape, but with better graphics"
17:04<@Rubidium>Pizen: better work on a 3D better and faster version of solitaire
17:05<@Belugas>yeah...that would be more realistic...
17:05<@Rubidium>yup... it's totally unreal that the cards aren't damaged a bit
17:05<@Rubidium>or that they are perfectly aligned
17:05<@Belugas>exactly :D
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>is there an english translation of "gezinkt"?
17:06<@Rubidium>or that moving them keeps them perfectly aligned and the dropping them aligns them automagically
17:06<+glx>what does that mean in english Eddi|zuHause ?
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>in german it means that the cards are marked somehow
17:07<Pizen>we need multitouch solitaire
17:07<Pizen>much more realistic
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>so you can figure out which card it is from its backside, if you know how to read the markings
17:07<Aali>in windows 7 you'll gradually wear down the deck of cards
17:07<Pizen>or even better
17:07<@Rubidium>and that double clicking is so unreal too... I tried it in the real world and the card didn't move to the right stack
17:07<Aali>and after a while it becomes completely unplayable
17:07<Aali>and then you have to buy a new deck of cards
17:07<@Rubidium>Aali: and you need to buy Windows 8 for a new set of cards, right?
17:07-!-Azrael- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:07<Pizen>most realistic version
17:08<@Rubidium>or a new Windows 7, because cards aren't sold seperately
17:08<Aali>actually, windows 8 doesn't have card games
17:08-!-theholyduck [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:08<@Rubidium>oh no, that's just .NET so you can run everything from the internet
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>Pizen: it's fake. you can tell by the pixels.
17:08-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>the shadows are totally wrong
17:09<@Belugas>oh fuck...
17:09*Belugas is gone
17:09<@Rubidium>and the cards do not reflect the light of my lamp
17:09<@Rubidium>night Belugas
17:10<@Rubidium>happy jamming ;)
17:10<planetmaker>nooooo! but good night, Belugas :)
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17:11<Eddi|zuHause>the word "gezinkt" can also be applied to dices or coins, when they are modified in order to cheat
17:11-!-phidah [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>although i have no idea what it has to do with "Zink"
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17:12<Pizen>I mean, it'd be called "loaded dice", but I don't know about cards/coins
17:12<Aali>cards are marked
17:13<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16457 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#2925]: skipping a 'nearest depot order' because none could be found could cause multiple orders to get skipped
17:13<Aali>I don't think there is a good translation
17:13<Pizen>cards are marked, dice are loaded, coins are ... weighted?
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17:22<z-MaTRiX>hahah btw, there are guys around here would happily steal copper from rail lines
17:23<z-MaTRiX>im sure they'd take the whole line if noone cares
17:23<Aali>copper is valuable
17:23<oskari89>Not too valuable.
17:23<oskari89>At least here.
17:23<oskari89>Has dropped.
17:24<z-MaTRiX>well think twice
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>copper is very valuable
17:24<@Rubidium>just don't be so stupid to remove the copper of the wiring rods from a government transmitter (police, firefighters and ambulance)
17:25<Aali>damn enter key
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>the japanese collected tons of italian coins, because the metal was more valuable than the coin value ;)
17:25<Aali>we've had some organized crime groups tearing off roofs of buildings just to get to the copper
17:26<Aali>nothing big, but still
17:26<Aali>there's definitely money to be made from looting copper
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>in world war I, the (just barely started) electrification in central germany was removed, because copper was needed for war-relevant production
17:26<@Rubidium>even when the transmitter is in the middle of (Dutch) nowhere, the police will be there before you have an amount of copper that's worth the work
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>well, the definition of "nowhere" varies from country to country :p
17:28<@Rubidium>the lightning rod influences radio waves and they continuously measure that, so when someone even touches with the lightning rod... they know
17:28<z-MaTRiX>those are from aluminium
17:29<@Rubidium>it's much safer to steal copper wire from (train) signalling systems
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you have to touch it, in order to get to the (copper) wiring
17:29<z-MaTRiX>hahah steal the high voltage line
17:30<z-MaTRiX>it was done in budapest, hungary
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>over here they closed down a rail line, and immediately took off the catenary, because they feared it would get stolen
17:30<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: Like someone did on the ttmeet last year.
17:30<Prof_Frink>...except they got a fibreoptic line instead. Fail.
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
17:31<@Rubidium>but then, who cares when a not quite working signalling system doesn't work?
17:32<z-MaTRiX>in the morning, trolleys couldn't start their work, because several kilometers of high voltage line was missing
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17:33<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: Everyone trying to get to London from The NORTH by train.
17:34<@Rubidium>how ancient are the signalling systems in the UK actually?
17:35<Prof_Frink>A system of flaming beacons on hilltops.
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17:37<Spizania>Rubidium: the newest systems on older track are still 25 years old
17:37<@Rubidium>in NL it's either 1960-ish or ECTS unfinished-draft (the that doesn't work yet and has caused several years delay on the major rail projects in the NL for the last decade or so)
17:38<Spizania>Newcastle Station even has a plaque commemorating them rebuilding the signalling system last time
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17:38<Spizania>it all has mechanical interlocks
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>they installed new signal systems here on station entrance between the main station and the connection to the new ICE track
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>but i have no statistics on how well they work
17:40<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: like ?
17:40<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: How many crashes have there been?
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>there have not been any ICEs yet ;)
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>the track is not finished
17:41*Prof_Frink divides by zero
17:41<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: talking only about a specific part of track, right?
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>and even then i have my doubts about the ICEs actually taking this route (it'll mostly be cargo trains taking this branch, i presume)
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>they're building a giant bridge
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>giant as in long, not in high
17:42<Spizania>I wish there was a signalling system that allows broken down trains on two track railways to be bypassed by reverting to one track running around them
17:43<@Rubidium>Spizania: you mean like path signals already can do?
17:44<Spizania>path signalling makes both lines bidirectional
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>that's not possible because the signal would have to know the speed of the train in front
17:44<Spizania>dont suppose we can code that can we?
17:44<@Rubidium>if with "we" you mean "me" (Rubidium) and "you" (Spizania), then probably no
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>and if it is 0 it has to know whether it is because of breakdown, waiting for path, manually stopped, other reasons...
17:45<@Rubidium>unless you do all the work ;)
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17:45<Spizania>because as well it would be awesome to have signals like they have on the ECML, where they let you enter a block that would otherwise be red if you enter slowly
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>how the hell would you manage that kind of mess?
17:47<z-MaTRiX>well actually maglevs are controlled by computers, and breakdowns are unusual in real life
17:47<Prof_Frink>Fools like Sacro do it for fun.
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17:48<Eddi|zuHause>no, "realistic" are "accidents with person-damage"
17:48<@Rubidium>z-MaTRiX: which is the reason they ram into maintainance carts, right?
17:49<@SmatZ>@seen Zuu
17:49<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, 33 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <Zuu> Good night Yexo
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>"computer controlled" and "maglev" are two entirely orthogonal properties of a vehicle
17:49<z-MaTRiX>actually a computer is only smart as the programmer teaching it
17:49<@SmatZ>Yexo: do you have any contact with Zuu ?
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17:54<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16458 /trunk/src/airport.h: -Codechange: use one enum instead of four
17:54<z-MaTRiX>Eddi|zuHause, how would you break in time as an engine driver with a maglev train travelling at 643kmh^-1?
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: the same way an ICE driver does at 350km/h?
17:54<Prof_Frink>z-MaTRiX: Carefully.
17:55<Chruker>yexo, does your latest roadpathfinder library have the ignored_tiles parameter in the initializepath?
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17:55<Eddi|zuHause>"computer-aided" is something different than "computer-controlled"
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17:56<Yexo>Chruker: I think so, but I'm not sure
17:56<z-MaTRiX>actually engine drivers on the train is unneccesary, still having 24/7 operators somewhere though
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17:57<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: a train driver does more than just react on signals
17:59<z-MaTRiX>if you tell what you thinking of maeby they consider highering some engine drivers on maglevs too
18:04<planetmaker>meh... no Zuu :(
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18:05<z-MaTRiX>"train crash, computer dies in fireball aftert collision"
18:09<Spizania> this is a really appropriate picture
18:09<Spizania>gah, I finaly connected the food processing plant to my network :D
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18:13*oskari89 figured out how to do spiral stairs
18:15<planetmaker>oskari89: easy: just plot log(z) with z € C
18:16<oskari89>Nah, just little (MS) painting ;)
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18:17<Spizania>are monorails still in the game? or were they sacrificed for electric railways?
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18:18<z-MaTRiX>would you convert a spiral to lines, circles or bezier curves to print out?
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18:22<z-MaTRiX>is gridless routing railroad tracks against game play theory?
18:22<z-MaTRiX>(guess it is)
18:24<z-MaTRiX>like bezier-curve shaped tracks
18:24<z-MaTRiX>might sound like too realistic/advanced
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18:33<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: so my advice helped you? :p
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20:28<Nite_Owl>Hello all
20:29<Nite_Owl>Hello z-MaTRiX
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---Logclosed Fri May 29 00:00:25 2009