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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-06-02

---Logopened Tue Jun 02 00:00:35 2009
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02:49<dih>Eddi|zuHause, don't worry - i dont like things like that
02:51<@SmatZ>hello dih, where did you forget edral?
02:53<dih>oh snap
02:53-!-dih is now known as dihedral
02:53<dihedral>^^
02:53<@SmatZ>:^)
02:53<dihedral>silly bouncer :-D
02:53-!-reldred [~reldred@wirele5.lnk.telstra.net] has joined #openttd
02:53<dihedral>quote from ever in the forums: "Tomorrow morning 3pm sharp"
02:53<@SmatZ>umm :)
02:56<dihedral>hihi
02:56<dihedral>i love that line :-P
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02:59<dihedral>hehe - pm :-D
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03:10<dihedral>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/opinion/01mon4.html
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03:32<planetmaker>morning guys :)
03:34<dihedral>ello sir
03:35<planetmaker>:) ca va, dihedral ?
03:39<Tefad>comme ci comme ca
03:44<fonsinchen>@seen TrueBrain
03:44<@DorpsGek>fonsinchen: TrueBrain was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 6 days, 20 hours, 7 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <TrueBrain> you catched on on that? :)
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04:58<Ammler>fronsinchen, Truebrain isn't mostly here, but you can always /query him.
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05:13<Eddi|zuHause><dihedral> quote from ever in the forums: "Tomorrow morning 3pm sharp" <- at least that was a post short enough to actually read it :p
05:13<dihedral>:-D
05:13<dihedral>haha
05:13<dihedral>yes
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>honestly, i have not read more than 3 lines from his other posts...
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05:16<dihedral>no - me neither actually :-P
05:16<dihedral>i just see they are too long and skip
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06:17<fonsinchen>Could any dev please sign off on building cargodist on the compile farm and tell TrueBrain about it?
06:19<dihedral>just told TB about it ^^
06:21<fonsinchen>Thanks dihedral.
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06:29<dihedral>but like Ammler sais - it's better to query him directly
06:29<dihedral>he does not like messages for him to bounce around like that ^^
06:32-!-andythenorth_ [~andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
06:35<fonsinchen>I am talking to him right now. But he requested for a developer to sign off on it. I hope that request is fulfilled now.
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06:41<fonsinchen>dihedral, TrueBrain says you're not a developer.
06:42<Noldo_>:P
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06:44<dihedral>:-) never said i was :-P
06:44<dihedral>i only passed on your message :-)
06:45<fonsinchen>So, Yexo, petern, Rubidium, SmatZ, michi_cc, Belugas, Bjarni, Celestar, frosch, glx, Maedhros, matthijs or orudge: Could you please sign off on building cargodist on the compile farm and send TrueBrain a message stating that you yourself are signing off on building cargodist on the compile farm?
06:46<Ammler>:-)
06:47<dihedral>HAHA
06:47<dihedral>fonsinchen, you are funny
06:48-!-andythenorth [~andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
06:48<fonsinchen>Perhaps I'm funny, but I want to get that silly thing done now. And it's really annoying that everyone is constantly trying to mock me.
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06:49<Ammler>fonsinchen: calm down, you can force devs to review your source.
06:49<Ammler>can't*
06:50<fonsinchen>I don't want them to review my source.
06:50<fonsinchen>I just want for example peter to repeat what he said a few weeks back and make TrueBrain aware of it, as TrueBrain doesn't believe me. gaah!
06:52<fonsinchen>OK, I'll go offline before I go nuts.
06:52<Ammler>I guess, they said, they won't host it, if no dev reviewed it.
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06:52<reldred>Ahh, beauracracy
06:52*reldred sits back with his popcorn
06:53<reldred>Mind you I have no idea what's going on here. Do carry on.
06:55<dihedral>wtf is wrong with that kid
06:55<dihedral>going all irate
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>you'll get both bored and fat if you watch bureaucracy eating popcorn
06:55<Ammler>we offered him already hosting for that case... :-)
06:55<reldred>I already am fat, and I'm already bored ;)
06:55<reldred>So this can't do too much worse
06:55<dihedral>Ammler, for cargodist is it?
06:56<Ammler>as we liked to play it on our server.
06:57<dihedral>hehe
06:59<Ammler>he has the same problem as IS, a awesome patch but no dev is currently interested
06:59<Ammler>he just need to be more patience
07:01<dihedral>define 'awesome'
07:02<Ammler>"I like it" :-)
07:02<dihedral>now that is something very different :-P
07:02<Ammler>:-D
07:03<dihedral>i can really understand that it might be a great patch from a players perspective
07:03<dihedral>but there is much more to consider code wise :-P
07:04<dihedral>but you know that :-)
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the BKA says the threat of terrorist attacks is rising. we should call them and say "you promised us for 7 years now, when is it finally happening?"
07:06<Ammler>well, that is the part up2dev
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: but your argumentation is misplaced, as the discussion is not about reviewing or merging
07:08<z-MaTRiX>hey
07:09<dihedral>my part was based on Ammler saying "a awesome patch"
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07:10<Eddi|zuHause>to me it looked like the reprise of the same argument earlier in the discussion
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08:09<planetmaker>Rubidium, if I understand your comment concerning FS2950 correct is that the "path" given by a tar filename is basically skipped and not considered?
08:10<planetmaker>but if I have several tars like file1.tar/dir1/grf1.grf and file2.tar/dir1/grf1.grf they're considered?
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08:13<@Rubidium>in your example they would be seen as the same
08:16<planetmaker>hm... not sure I understand.
08:17<planetmaker>what do I have to do in order to have OpenTTD always pick the latest version of identically named (new)grfs?
08:17<@Rubidium>everything before 'tar' (including tar) is stripped
08:17<planetmaker>so... I have to have different directories for different versions?
08:18<@Rubidium>planetmaker: take a look at the files from bananas
08:18<Ammler>the question might be: How is the loading order?
08:18<Ammler>and will a next identical tar overwrite or skip?
08:18<planetmaker>ok. a directory of the tar name inside those tars.
08:19<@Rubidium>Ammler: the loading order depends on the order on disk, which is unreliable and random, thus assuming a random one is chosen
08:21<Ammler>but it looks like bananas grfs have prio over self downloaded, also if they older
08:22<Ammler>might not be possible to solve, I assume.
08:23<Ammler>maybe newgrf spec version 8 could include a version properity?
08:24<Ammler>(if that needs a dump)
08:26<@Rubidium>something tells me that ain't gonna work
08:26<@Rubidium>GRF ID
08:26<@Rubidium>This is a series of 4 bytes. It's a convention to use the first two bytes for the creator's initials in ASCII code, e.g. 54 57 for "TW". The last two bytes should be numbers, typically the first number identifying which of the author's sets this is, and the second number being a version number.
08:27<@Rubidium>how often do the increment the version number when they should?
08:27<@Rubidium>I'd say, close to never
08:27<Ammler>only if it isn't compatible anymore, major steps
08:27<Ammler>and that is just a proposal
08:29<Ammler>that is why I would suggest a "special" properity or action or whatever is needed.
08:30<Ammler>ISR didn't change the ID, also if it made uncompatible release.
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08:40<dragonhorseboy>hey
08:41<planetmaker>ho
08:42<planetmaker>more patience today than last night? ;)
08:42<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker..?
08:42<planetmaker>might be that I mix up nicks...
08:42<dragonhorseboy>heh ok
08:42<planetmaker>there was a person joining, saying 'hey' and leaving after two minutes... alas.
08:42<dragonhorseboy>btw mind if I asked something about openttd gameplay?
08:42<planetmaker>yes. we all mind.
08:42<planetmaker>;)
08:43<planetmaker>and the logs show that that person was you last night ;)
08:43<dragonhorseboy>was the company subsidiaries thing included in openttd or it was a third party patch that was decided not added?
08:43<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker...must had been internet :S
08:44<Yexo>subsidiaries isn't (and has never been) in openttd
08:44<dragonhorseboy>yexo..thought so..another mini-in only thing
08:44<dragonhorseboy>thanks
08:45<dihedral>planetmaker, hehe - the internets joins and says hey :-P
08:45<planetmaker>:)
08:45<dragonhorseboy>very funny dihedral
08:46<dragonhorseboy>I'm already here for more than two minutes...enough said? ;)
08:46<dihedral>no ;-P
08:46<planetmaker>yes! ;)
08:46<dihedral>not by the measure of 'ever'
08:46<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker cheers :)
08:47<dihedral>pffft - traitor :-P
08:47<planetmaker>dihedral, that's not a measure. That's a ... anti-thesis to a black hole.
08:48<dihedral>:-D
08:48<dihedral>HAHAHA
08:48<dihedral>awesome
08:48<dragonhorseboy>heh
08:48<dragonhorseboy>so what are both of you up to now?
08:49<planetmaker>obviously making fun on the expense of other people. We're mainly bad guys ;)
08:49-!-Frostregen [~sucks@dslb-084-058-113-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
08:49<dragonhorseboy>and beside that? ;)
08:49<planetmaker>making opengfx
08:49<dihedral>that's not a very good definition of 'bad guy'
08:49<dihedral>working on avignon :-P
08:52<dragonhorseboy>avignon?
08:52<dihedral>autopilot / ap+ rewrite
08:53<dragonhorseboy>oh ok
08:54<dragonhorseboy>me just being on irc a bit, playing one tropical game now, and hm not much else
08:55<planetmaker>if you want to do something useful: make a test game :)
08:55<planetmaker>Either a game which uses and shows as many features / sprites / graphics of OpenTTD as possible without using any newgrf
08:55<planetmaker>e.g. also using as many different vehicles / trains /ships / planes as available
08:56<planetmaker>that'd be a test game for opengfx (and possibly a title screen replacement, if it makes a good show, too ;) )
08:56<dragonhorseboy>no thanks :P
08:56<planetmaker>or the same thing a little less: a game which has every train within the 2cc train set.
08:56<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16503 /trunk/src/gfxinit.cpp: -Fix: base graphics names must be unique, so don't add duplicates (even if the versions differ).
08:57<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker I don't deal with these "massive connect-everything-in-one-network" kind of games so it'll be pointless to ask me to try make a ton of trains so :p
08:57<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16504 /trunk/src/command.cpp: -Fix [FS#2948](r16435): one couldn't build anything in the scenario editor
08:58<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy, that doesn't need to be a "massive connect everything" network. It needs to be games which have the biggest variety available.
08:58<planetmaker>profit, building style etc don't matter for me on that isse / in these games.
08:58<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker from someone who builds just one to several short 2-stops line every game year .. well .. I dunno ;)
08:59<planetmaker>if you want, you can cheat yourself as much as you need. I don't care.
08:59<dragonhorseboy>would be a bit funny to try cram the whole 2cc buy range onto only ten coal lines heh
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09:03<planetmaker>Rubidium, still, now the handling of newgrf and basegrf is somewhat inconsistent, that newgrf allow me to select any version, basegrf basically no choice.
09:06<@Rubidium>randomly selecting one of the base grfs (all with the same name) is better?
09:08<@Rubidium>especially when you select the lower ones in the list is always jumps back to the first one with that name
09:09<Ammler>planetmaker: you might be confused, because the base grfs have version in the spec, newgrfs doesn't have.
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09:12<Xaroth>odd, just made the game launch with -n<ip>#companyID .. and the connecting dialog stalls at 6/6 Registering...
09:14<Ammler>Xaroth: we use that all the time
09:15<Xaroth>yeh, which is why it's odd
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09:26<planetmaker>Ammler, no, I'm not confused.
09:26<planetmaker>Rubidium, no, I'd rather like a choice of all available versions like for newgrf :)
09:27<planetmaker>but I guess I can live with the latest, too :)
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09:31<Xaroth>Ammler: I think that's because the index byte is 1 off, ie company with index 0 should be joined by joining id 1.
09:32<Xaroth>the server i joined(ottdc) has a limit on 1 company, as such, i tried to join company 0, which equals create new company.. which isn't doable as there's a limit on 1 company
09:32<Xaroth>which stalls it into Registering
09:33<planetmaker>he :)
09:35<@Belugas>hello there
09:35<Ammler>Xaroth: since switching is very easy, just join specs always and you are safe
09:35<Ammler>huha Belugas
09:35<dragonhorseboy>hey belugas
09:35<Xaroth>Ammler: i'm adding features :)
09:35<Xaroth>ie, joining company directly
09:35<Xaroth>but i fixed it
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09:49<dragonhorseboy>just had to ask but any of you know about station layouts? (rails-wise)
09:49<Yexo>of course there are people here who know about them
09:56<dragonhorseboy>sorry was busy talking in other channel but anyhow.. are stubend platforms usually located on the outside or sometimes they could actually be in middle while the through platforms are on outside?
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10:04<@petern>they're located whereever you place them
10:05<fjb>dragonhorseboy: Both layouts are common.
10:05<dragonhorseboy>thanks
10:06<dragonhorseboy>so I guess I can just design the platforms whatever I want and still get away with 'it could had been a real one' reality check :)
10:06<dragonhorseboy>heh
10:07<@petern>well
10:07<@petern>aside from nobody will care
10:07<dragonhorseboy>I do still sometimes wonder about japan then again they have sooo many different kind of passenger networks
10:08<@Belugas>ho god... Leanden decided to reply to suggestions... in a row... got nothing else to do...
10:09<@Rubidium>Belugas: "Mark forums read"
10:11<@Belugas>yeah
10:11<@Belugas>better for my blood tension
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10:54<KingJ>Once a vehicle has been removed from the buy list due to old age, is it possible to get it back again? I can no longer buy any ships
10:55<Aali>turn on vehicles never expire and reset engines
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13:03<Chruker>In the Banananansnns manager signup item 6.j says: 'requires a "library.nut" and "into.nut" in AI Library packages' shouldnt that be 'requires a "main.nut" and "library.nut" in AI Library packages' ?
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>why would a library have a "main"?
13:04<Chruker>well, all the libs have a main.nut and a library.nut files
13:04<Chruker>but none info.nut (or into.nut as it currently says)
13:04<@Rubidium>that shows how well people read such documents
13:05<@Rubidium>Yexo: ^ can you tell what the right ones are and poke TB to fix it?
13:07<Chruker>The files changes (line ending conversion and renaming) and file checks are pretty crucial, but I guess some people operate using try..catch :-)
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13:09<Chruker>Rubidium / Yexo, and perhaps also have him add LGPL to the upload form (if thats what going to be used for the AI libs)
13:11<Yexo>libraries need main.nut and library.nut
13:12<Yexo>AIs need main.nut and info.nut
13:12<Yexo>the contents of info.nut and library.nut look very much the same
13:12<welshdragon>libraries need books.....
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13:14<Eddi|zuHause>donna noble has left the library?
13:14<Yexo>Rubidium: done
13:16<Yexo>Rubidium: according to TB there was a reason LGPL was not added, can you remember what that was?
13:19<dihedral>google for it - some irc logs might have been spidered already :_D
13:20<Yexo>a lot of discussion for is was not in this channel
13:20<dihedral>i know
13:20<dihedral>;-)
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14:10<@Belugas>shiT!!!!
14:11<@Belugas>i'm gonna snap...
14:11<@Belugas>soon!
14:13*Prof_Frink repeatedly bends Belugas back and forth
14:14<Sacro>;)
14:14<dihedral>:-D
14:14*welshdragon makes Prof_Frink lose the game
14:15<Sacro>:(
14:15<Sacro>me too
14:17*planetmaker reserves a "loosers here" place for him
14:23<@Belugas>mmh... did not... took a walk outside instead
14:23<@Belugas>boring..
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14:42<Eddi|zuHause>petern: you once asked whether it would make sense to allow grfs to disable the existing railtypes. i am pretty sure the answer should be yes. let's assume someone provides a railsets which provides hypothetical restrictions on speed and axle weight, he would want to disable (or at least overwrite) the existing railtypes which would not impose such restrictions
14:43<@petern>would he not simply just give a restriction to the existing railtype?
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>that is what i meant with "overwrite"
14:43<@petern>then you don't need to disable it
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you say so...
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>but maybe that way the "disable elrails" setting could be replaced by a grf?
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>that'll cause horrible compatibility nightmares :p
14:49<@Belugas>sounds like base cost nightmare to me...
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14:52<Eddi|zuHause>different thing... maybe a railtype should have a "may have catenary" flag, and switching between electrified and conventional rail is done with an additional button in the rail toolbar. this would avoid duplicating lots of railtypes for electrified rail
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14:54<frosch123>so you also want a button for a third rail?
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>why not, allows for easier combination of both ;)
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>and especially easier switching
14:56<frosch123>so you want a xml description for railtypes so the user can specify several parameters before building?
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>ha ha :p
14:57<z-MaTRiX>would like to program signals after placing :)
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>but imagine, 4 railtypes for different speedlimits, each with possibility for catenary and third rail, that makes 4 combinations for each railtypes. this would fill all 16 railtypes without leaving space for narrow gauche or maglev
14:58<frosch123>or for weight
14:59<frosch123>or fence colour
14:59<@Rubidium>no random bits?
14:59<frosch123>see, Eddi, who shall dintinguish 4 railtypes with different speedlimits?
14:59<z-MaTRiX>will there be maglev type 2 rail?
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>i wrote how to achieve that, you just have to read it ;)
15:01<frosch123>i read it :)
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15:02<frosch123>but an unportant light rail has no catenary, or do you also want to distinguish how much power the catenary can provide?
15:02<frosch123>and whether it is dc or ac
15:03<frosch123>16 railtypes is more than enough just like ecs with 32 cargos is more than enough
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>distinguishing power supplies has been dismissed as unmodelable a long time ago
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>no sane set designer really considers that :p
15:04<frosch123>and which sane set designer considers adding a railtype for a single engine?
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>"a single engine"? where do you read that from?
15:07<frosch123>as I read it there were 4 freight steam engines. there could be more if there where weight specifc track. one engine was mentioned to be multiplicated for four track types with different weight
15:08<@Rubidium>that's going to be fun with cargo train weight multipliers
15:08<frosch123>so do you just want to add a engine four times so you can support four different track types for four different weights?
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>the main splitting point is 18t vs. 20t
15:08<planetmaker>hm... adding a flag "catenary" makes sense to a certain degree.
15:08<frosch123>aren't two enough maybe?
15:08<andythenorth_>where can I read about these railtypes? ...sounds as mad as a bag of cats frankly, but I shouldn't comment on things I know nothing about...
15:08<@Rubidium>planetmaker: yeah, catenary over maglev ;)
15:09<frosch123>andythenorth_: http://wiki.openttd.org/Peter1138/Railtypes
15:10<frosch123>though the current discussion is about mb's test game with dbset 0.9, and the result "it is crap :p"
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>20t mainlines were built roughly since the 1920s, so a network built earlier would have to slowly be converted
15:10<planetmaker>Rubidium, hehe :) that would be marked as "no catenary possible" :)
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>15t is for cheap branch lines, which usually feature small passenger or mixed trains. they would have "universal" engines with low speed
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>DRG main line steam engines usually come in two variants, one for 18t and one for 20t
15:12<frosch123>and what is the gameplay difference between 18t and 20t ?
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>where the 18t versions just have lower tractive effort. thus without distinguishing the railtypes, these would have no use
15:12<CIA-3>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16505 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Fix [FS#2951] (r16472): since g++ 4.4 the implicit (default) constructor will zero the whole class. This caused all vehicle indices to be 0, which causes all kinds of trouble.
15:12<frosch123>if it was 20t and 40t, okay, but 18 and 20?
15:13<andythenorth_>ah that. Seen that. Looks highly useful (I am hoping for more roadtypes 'one day'). However discussion above begins to sound excitingly like micro-management, and possibly lots of confused players? I know I often have an electrified train stuck in depot when I forget a piece of electrified track. I think multiple track weights will bamboozle me entirely, but don't let me rain on the parade.
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>no sane railway has 40t axle weight :p
15:13<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: American railways?
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>since when is "american" associated with "sane"? :p
15:15<@Belugas>"I know, i was agreeing with you." - LAND OF CONFUSION, Leanden
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the physical reality is that damage (and thus cost) of the infrastructure grows cubically with axle weight
15:17<andythenorth_>[back in 20 mins, you guys have fun with axle weights :) ]
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>18^3 and 20^3 make the difference look quite differently
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15:18<Eddi|zuHause>which would make a 20t line significantly more expensive than an 18t line
15:18<@Rubidium>so why no maglev? They float, thus weigh nothing => 0^3 => cheapness!
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that does not mean there are no forces at work :p
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>(but the wear does certainly show at different places there)
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, that is not the point of the discussion
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>the point is making a difference between building/maintenance costs of rails and capability of the engines running on them
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>if the 18t/20t difference cannot be modeled in the game, half of the DRG steam engine have no gameplay value, and thus need not appear in the game
15:24<@Belugas>looking good is not good enough?
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>no... they would look basically the same ;)
15:25<frosch123>still, Eddi|zuHause, I cannot see any gameplay value for more than 5 railtypes (excluding maglev than such): low speed with/without catenary, medium speed with/without catenary, high speed with catenary
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that in itself would not be the problem... adding the 18/20 difference would just add 2 railtypes in that scheme
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>the problem starts when adding 3rd rail also
15:28<frosch123>I guess you inventing more railtypes than exist for real :p
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>which is already used by some metro grfs
15:29<frosch123>so why do you need 18/20 rail, when you can just refit engines to 18/20t with impact on the running cost, and with a matching wagon override to reduce capacity?
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: refitting to 18t makes no sense when the railtype does not enforce it. "realistically", it has no real influence on running cost, but on rail maintenance cost
15:31*Belugas whistles innocently while an idea is forming in his tormented brain
15:31<frosch123>big kicking time :
15:31<frosch123>p
15:32<@Belugas>harr harr harr
15:32<planetmaker>he... :P
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>the weight thing isn't even the point of the original question
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>the original question was about separating electrification from railtype
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>to avoid duplication
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>and also about easier GUI usage
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>the point was that almost all railtypes i could imagine need to be duplicated for an electrified version
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>and if you add things like third rail, this makes an exponential growth
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15:41<dihedral>unpause never worked on my server just now
15:42<dihedral>a client was in the game
15:42<dihedral>min_active_clients is 0
15:42<dihedral>the client had joined and created a company at the same time
15:42<dihedral>(that is the first client and only client)
15:42-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:42<dihedral>until i joined as spec
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15:53<andythenorth>got some questions about enhancing industries / cargo / newgrf...where is best to discuss: here or forums? Trying to avoid 'helpful ideas' from people who know < enough :)
15:54<dihedral>hehe - you'll get them in both places i'd expect ^^
15:54<dihedral>but higher chance of proper / decent help in here
15:54<fjb>The DRG steam engine with the highest number build was BR50, a heavy freight engine with 15t axle weight.
15:54<dihedral>i'd guess
15:54<DaleStan>Forums have the advantage of being conducive to longer-lived discussions, though.
15:55<dihedral>true
15:55<dihedral>just make sure you filter out the gibberish some people post
15:55<frosch123>though you can also use djn&bennys question thread
15:55<frosch123>it has the advantage that it is stickied, so noone reads it
15:55<dihedral>:-D
15:56<andythenorth>ok, I'll bounce ideas here first. if they *don't* die here, I'll post on the forums.
15:56<andythenorth>(frosch: This is about new things, not my usual nfo help requests) :)
15:56<dihedral>hehe - DaleStan will be your friend i guess :-P
15:56<frosch123>I feared that, usualy place for them is to die on flyspray :)
15:56<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16506 /trunk/src/network/network.cpp: -Fix: count only active clients (not those waiting for map download) when checking min_active_clients limit
15:57<frosch123>btw. I am just exploring your ship stuff
15:57<andythenorth>ok, question 1: no-one who has the wit and power to do it actually wants to change the basic game economy in trunk? Do I guess right?
15:58<dihedral>hehe - nice on SmatZ
15:58<@SmatZ>;)
15:58<dihedral>but i am not sure that was the issue :-)
15:58<dihedral>because the client was long in the game
15:58<@SmatZ>it was :-p
15:58<dihedral>ha :-)
15:58<dihedral>ok
15:58<frosch123>andythenorth: applies to me, yes :)
15:58*dihedral hugs SmatZ
15:58<@SmatZ>you could unpause server without knowing the password
15:58<@SmatZ>that's wrong
15:58<Yexo>andythenorth: change problably not, adding an alternative maybe
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15:59<dihedral>SmatZ: but then the 'unpause' command had no effect either :-(
16:00<dihedral>andythenorth: to what benefit would the economy be changed??
16:01<andythenorth>dihedral: (good q!) I am thinking mostly about what I call 'industrial economy' - industry acceptance, why do we build some routes not others.
16:02<andythenorth> Not thinking about town economy.
16:02<andythenorth>Also, cargo payment rates: *do not change*. That's a major fallacy that comes up seems every day
16:02<dihedral>so you are doing the thinking, will you also do the coding?
16:02<andythenorth>i.e. cargo payment model is precisely perfect as it stands
16:03<andythenorth>dihedral: in C++? Probably not. I am pushing pixels and writing nfo for the next year at last...
16:03<andythenorth>...(least sorry typo)...
16:03<andythenorth>...however working on the problem in newgrf: yes I do that kind of thing
16:04<dihedral>if someone does the coding, and does it decently, the chances are higher
16:04<dihedral>but someone has a huge todo list already
16:04<andythenorth>ah good old someone :)
16:05<dihedral>anybody else will probably not be arsed
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16:08<Nite_Owl>Hello all
16:08<dihedral>hey hooo
16:08<andythenorth>ok, putting aside lack of 'someone' can we play a game of 'in theory' in respect of newgrf and industries?
16:08<frosch123>sure :)
16:08<dihedral>sure you can :-P
16:08<andythenorth>ace :)
16:08<frosch123>biggues foe will be "backward compatiblity" :)
16:09<Nite_Owl>Hello dihedral
16:09<dihedral>not in theory
16:09<dihedral>:-P
16:09<dihedral>hi Nite_Owl :)
16:09<frosch123>"backward compatibility to newgrfs" actually
16:09<andythenorth>assume that it's a good idea to move lots of control over economy to newgrf (it may not be)...
16:10<dihedral>assume copy & paste were a good idea and well implemented, it would be in trunk :-P
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16:10<andythenorth>what is feasible / stupid / never gonna happen from the following:
16:10<andythenorth>- ability to tell at which industry a unit of cargo originated
16:11<frosch123>it's good as long as you do not get the idea to play with ecs and pbi, and as long as coders do not put houses, industries, vehicles and infrastructure in a single grf because it is the way how the game shall be played
16:11<DaleStan><andythenorth> Also, cargo payment rates: *do not change*. <-- I take it that CB 39 isn't what you need here?
16:12<dihedral>andythenorth: you know how much more data that would consume?
16:12<dihedral>just count the cagopackets available in a game and any given time
16:12<andythenorth>DaleStan: yes and no. Yes, maybe to actually implement a good working grf. No, as in I don't think the problem is with the basic model of cargo payment calculation (and I am fed up of increasingly complicated graphs suggesting stupid tweaks to same)
16:12<frosch123>[22:11] <andythenorth> - ability to tell at which industry a unit of cargo originated <- problem is that when a vehicle arrives there can be tens of different origins, so the production callback has to be called several times, which then only works when industries use stockpiling as things like "output amount = input amout / 4" will fail
16:12<andythenorth>dihedral: err....no that's why I'm asking :p
16:13<frosch123>but e.g. "average distance of origin" might be more likely
16:13<dihedral>ok - have a guess how many cargopackets can be available in a 1024^2 map in year 2050
16:13<andythenorth>> some?
16:14<dihedral>and you want to ask where you get decent answers??
16:14<frosch123>though you will get into trouble because of very different industry density on different map sizes with different playing style
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>why is it, when i google for "newgrf callback 36", the newgrf specs are at place 40 of the results?
16:15<frosch123>dihedral: the cargo packets already know their source, what do you think the payment is made up on?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>happens similarly basically every time i use google to search for anything newgrf related... i get every page imaginable as result, except the actual newgrf specs
16:15<dihedral>frosch123: so it's simply not available to newgrf's?
16:15<andythenorth>frosch: is that source by industry, or source by first station loaded?
16:15<Yexo>frosch123: source station != source industry, and that can make huge difference
16:15<Lakie>I just bookmarked the wiki itself and look there.
16:16<DaleStan>Eddi|zuHause: Try with "site:wiki.ttdpatch.net"
16:16<Yexo>since houses can also generate cargo you'd have use at least 1 bit for the house/industry source differnce, then 32 for source tile (in case of house)
16:16<frosch123>source station, the thing that is displayed when you unload cargo at an intermediate station
16:16<Yexo>as opposoed to 16 bits total for station id
16:17<dihedral>frosch123: he asked for source industry :-)
16:17<Yexo>hmm, it already stores source_xy
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16:17<frosch123>and I answered that reporting the source for every single cargo packet will not work, but e.g. average distance might :)
16:17<DaleStan>The source is not available, IIRC, but the distance traveled is.
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: yes, because it was abusable when the station got deleted before delivery :p
16:18<dihedral>andythenorth: what on earth do you want to do with that info?
16:18<frosch123>DaleStan: so when you drive A->B->A you get paid in ttdp?
16:19<andythenorth>dihedral: not 100% sure yet, don't want to define a plan before knowing what's possible...
16:19<dihedral>... eh?
16:19<andythenorth>....one idea was creating preferred suppliers (think like contracts) between industries
16:19<dihedral>you have no idea what to do with that data?
16:20<frosch123>andythenorth: that means communication between industries, which I would just say: no :p
16:20<DaleStan>OK then, "net displacement", not "distance traveled".
16:20<andythenorth>frosch: yeah, that's what I thought might happen :)
16:22<andythenorth>when you say 'communication', what are you thinking?
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16:22<frosch123>accessing persistent storage of another industry
16:23<frosch123>what is more likely: distance to nearest industry producing certain cargo, average distance of transported cargo and then reduced acceptance of cargo from far away
16:24<frosch123>resp. different payment
16:25<andythenorth>I was thinking something different, sorry might take a few lines to explain. *and* it's only one idea.
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>i am of the opinion that "nearest source" might not be the best value to base calculations on... the nearest source could produce just 12t per month, while the industry actually processes 1000t per month
16:26<andythenorth>(theory) for each accepted cargo industries have a 'preferred supplier' list. This is updated according to something like the production callback, including dealing with closure of suppliers. There are maybe between 1 and 5 preferred suppliers
16:27<frosch123>what makes them "preferred"?
16:27<dihedral>and what to do with 'preferred' suppliers?
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>just compare getting coal from the ruhr area vs. importing coal from china...
16:27<andythenorth>When cargo arrives, we (nfo author) have code that compares cargo source against preferred list and doesn't pay if source is not in list.
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>even though the first is very close, the production cost is incredibly high while the supplied amount is very low, which makes the latter a much more viable source, despide the extreme distance
16:28<dihedral>nice - that is just perfect!!! imagine a game with 15 companies
16:28<andythenorth>frosch: preferred is whatever the newgrf author decides :) random, distance to supplier, layout of supplier, colour, game year, whatever :)
16:28<dihedral>competing
16:28<planetmaker>honestly. I wouldn't make that a newgrf feature.
16:28<planetmaker>it's getting messy enough with stockpiling ;)
16:29<+glx>andythenorth: then you'll handle bug reports about missing payment
16:29<andythenorth>glx: well handling irritating bug reports does seem to be the fate of grf authors the world over :)
16:29-!-racetrack [~racetrack@c114-76-16-69.eburwd4.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: no. just, no.]
16:30<@Belugas>as well as devs
16:30<andythenorth>digression - if I may? (I'm going to anyway) :)
16:30<@Belugas>and i love to close bug reports the hard way
16:30<andythenorth>sorry, also eating mussels and fries while typing!
16:30<@Belugas>...
16:30<@Belugas>my prefered plate...
16:30*Belugas cries!
16:31<andythenorth>(mayonaise ran out, so it's with ketchup - not so good)
16:31<frosch123>andythenorth: so I ask differently: is a preferred supplied an explicitly known single source, or is it one of many (e.g. certain distance)
16:32<andythenorth>it is an explicitly known single source, which would bring me to another question (which I have asked DaleStan before) about one industry being able to access properties of another (the answer was ****probably**** not).
16:32-!-TinoM [~Tino@i59F5D983.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
16:32<andythenorth>IIRC
16:33<planetmaker>[22:19] <frosch123> andythenorth: that means communication between industries, which I would just say: no :p <-- I guess that's the same basically :)
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>i'm also not fond of a "single source" concept
16:34<andythenorth>dang I have spent too much time in the world of Flash and/or Zope where I can access any other object or variable within scope :)
16:34<DaleStan>To access another industry's properties, you must know (or have enough information to be able to definitely determine) the industry's index.
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>my networks almost always combine many (small) sources into one (medium) secondary industry
16:34<andythenorth>Eddi: I'll get to your objection in a minute with my digression :)
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, you have to combine 10 ore mines of 100t/month output to fill a 1000t/month steel mill
16:36<DaleStan>Think of industries as an array. Yes, you can access the array, but if you don't also have an index, then it's not all that useful.
16:36<frosch123>and you get into big trouble if you have e.g. different industry vectors from different versions with different register usage :)
16:38<andythenorth>frosch: useful info thanks. Digression: not everyone plays the same; obvious. Bunch of people optimising uber networks. Bunch of people building equivalent of model train sets....
16:38<andythenorth>... Me? I've kept the game interesting by trying out different grf sets, and learning how to 'win' with them.
16:39<andythenorth>When I say 'win' I don't mean the game's tiresome original goals. I just mean figuring out how to stay in the game and make money. Not the most interesting I could *imagine*, but keeps me entertained.
16:39<andythenorth>So PBI with NARS is very different to PBI with UKRS etc. etc. Keeps me learning
16:40<frosch123>andythenorth: you cannot shock anyone with any gameplay style, who has seen some savegames in some bug repots :)
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>"Digression: not everyone plays the same" <- yes, but i am not (only) referring to my playing style. PBI for example explicitly generates more primary industries and requires you to build many-to-one distribution lines
16:40<@Belugas>me, i play with my son, which does not care about nothing else then cutie trains rolling on bridges, crossing tunnels and surely not about realism
16:40<@Belugas>hehe
16:41<andythenorth>PBI is a work of genius and has kept me interested for the last 18 months, but now I'm bored of stockpiling. This is why FIRS exists, and why me and FooBar and Zephyris are spending so much time on the set (Eddi & Belugas, I agree with you BTW)
16:42<andythenorth>With the questions above, I am not trying to figure out how to get 'someone' to code everything *I* need to code the 'perfect' industry set that solves all OpenTTD problems for all time...
16:42<andythenorth>...instead I am trying to figure out what tools could be given to people like Pikka, George and me to keep refreshing the game and offering new alternatives in gameplay :)
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>"You may embed only 3 quotes within each other." <- err... since when?
16:43<andythenorth>Newgrf sets seem much more cyclical than trunk :)
16:43<planetmaker>for a simple reason: they're not developed with open repositories :)
16:44<andythenorth>and bluntly, I think changing the basic economy in trunk is like herding cats :)
16:44<planetmaker>if you count only stable releases, OpenTTD also has big steps
16:44<andythenorth> Planetmaker: I meant cyclical in a good way, as in players use one for a while and move on to another. And yes, I will put HEQS in the open repository ;)
16:45<planetmaker>:P it was not meant as a hint, but good to hear :)
16:46<planetmaker>I cannot share the perception though, that grf usage is cyclical.
16:46<planetmaker>but my view may be limited :)
16:46<@Belugas>do you agree about the fact it is time to quit and go home?
16:46<@Belugas>no comment?
16:46<@Belugas>cool
16:46<planetmaker>Belugas: yes
16:46<@Belugas>i'll go
16:46<@Belugas>:D
16:46<planetmaker>good night and enjoy home :)
16:46<@Belugas>ciao guys
16:46<@Belugas>i will, i will
16:47<@Rubidium>night Belugas
16:47<frosch123>[22:45] <planetmaker> if you count only stable releases, OpenTTD also has big steps <- if you play only miniin since 3 years, there are no steps at all
16:48<frosch123>s/since/for/
16:48<Nite_Owl>later Belugas
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the sad thing is, there are people like that...
16:49<frosch123>I guess only in a certain forum
16:49-!-lewymati [~lewymati@aeji11.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit []
16:49<planetmaker>urgs, frosch123, and yes there are strange people in tt-ms
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16:50<frosch123>bjarni is here?
16:50<frosch123>time to leave :p
16:50<frosch123>night
16:50<planetmaker>mostly words but nothing behind it.
16:50<planetmaker>...
16:50<planetmaker>night frosch123
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16:50<@Bjarni>nice welcome committee :s
16:51*planetmaker waves
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>i can easily draft a definition of "strange people" that would apply to developers...
16:51<@Bjarni>go ahead and try
16:51<planetmaker>it wouldn't even be difficult to draft one which encloses the whole channel list
16:52<planetmaker>like "irc junky and rail road game addicts"
16:52<@Bjarni>"people, who installed an IRC client"
16:52<Yexo>that doesn't apply to bots :)]
16:52<planetmaker>:P
16:52<planetmaker>Yexo: did you look what your bot does at night? Really?
16:52<planetmaker>when no one is watching? I bet!
16:53<Yexo>dunno, I never watched :)
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>i grepped through my logs recently, and i came across conversations with babyottd
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>man, that was a fun time :p
16:56<planetmaker>uh... beware
16:59<@Bjarni>http://qdb.us/36848 <--- looks like the welcome I got :/
17:00<Nite_Owl>Hello Bjarni
17:00<@Bjarni>hello Nite_Owl
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17:01<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is, it did not work as well :p
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17:11<@SmatZ>hello Bjarni
17:11<@Bjarni>hello SmatZ
17:12<@SmatZ>haha, nice quote :)
17:12*Bjarni is away
17:13*Bjarni waits for SmatZ to leave
17:13<@Bjarni>:P
17:14<@SmatZ>I never leave
17:14<@SmatZ>I have a bouncer
17:14<@Bjarni>I know
17:14<@Bjarni>he is on my payroll
17:14<@SmatZ>:o)
17:15*petern waits for Bjarni to do some coding
17:16<@SmatZ>:-)
17:17<@SmatZ>FS#2782 would be a good start
17:17<+glx>automatic font selection too ;)
17:17<@Rubidium>glx: what did SmatZ say?
17:18<+glx>I didn't check the FS task :)
17:18<@Bjarni>hehe
17:18<andythenorth>maybe it could be assigned to someone instead of no-one ??
17:19<+glx>IIRC there was somebody working on the font selection
17:19<@Bjarni>I know
17:19<@Bjarni>and I actually spoke with him yesterday
17:19<@Bjarni>:)
17:19<@Bjarni>and I plan on getting coding time ASAP
17:19<@Bjarni>like next week
17:20*planetmaker hides
17:20*Bjarni spots planetmaker
17:20*SmatZ greets planetmaker
17:20<@Bjarni>now it's your turn
17:20*Bjarni hides
17:21*planetmaker greets SmatZ and points to Bjarni's hiding place
17:21<andythenorth><mac fanboi mode>Yay, mac version improvements</mac fanboi mode>
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17:21<planetmaker>andythenorth: rather fixes...
17:21<andythenorth>ach, just being silly. long hot day
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17:22<planetmaker>and the core foundation classes... ar no fun :S
17:22<@Bjarni>andythenorth: what's your excuse for your statements on a cold day?
17:22<andythenorth>too much nfo coding?
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17:23<@Bjarni>that's not a valid excuse
17:23<andythenorth>can you give me a list of valid excuses, I'll pick the closes
17:23<andythenorth>(closest)
17:23<andythenorth>or are they on the wiki somewhere?
17:25<planetmaker>hehe. That'd be way too easy then, andythenorth :P
17:25<planetmaker>hmpf. xcode crashed :(
17:25<andythenorth>idea: code a list of valid excuses *in* nfo ---> excuses.grf
17:28<Nite_Owl>"I've fallen and I can't get up."
17:28<andythenorth>night
17:28<Nite_Owl>later andythenorth
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18:25<Chruker>Havent anybody made some shipping tunnels? There are bridges for ships but no tunnels
18:27<Yexo>it's most likely pretty easy to code, but it'll cause a lot of graphical glitches since ships are too big
18:28<Chruker>I guess so they already looks like they are beaching themselves when they try to turn in a canal :-)
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20:06<CIA-3>OpenTTD: smatz * r16507 /trunk/src/gfxinit.cpp: -Fix (r16503): segfault when deleting non-last graphics set
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---Logclosed Wed Jun 03 00:00:38 2009