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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-06-04

---Logopened Thu Jun 04 00:00:42 2009
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01:33<SxeDag>where do i find close all windows button?
01:33<SxeDag>im pumping trams...
01:34<eQualizer>Was it delete or backspace?
01:35<SxeDag>delete
01:35<SxeDag>ty
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01:51<SxeDag>when can i buy shares in other companies?
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02:08<andythenorth>ammler: (digging something best left dead) afaik I'm the only openttd person running grfcodec and nforenum through crossover for Mac...
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02:14<Alberth>SxeDag: http://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_Settings/Competitors#Allow_buying_shares_from_other_companies
02:27<Xaroth>SxeDag: when the company is old enough
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02:33<SxeDag>when
02:33<SxeDag>thats the Q
02:33<SxeDag>ty 7 years
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02:35<Xaroth>5 years more like it tbh
02:36<Noldo_>did you check the source?
02:36<SxeDag>yes
02:38<Alberth>the wiki contradicts itself, so it may be different than stated
02:38<Noldo_>Alberth: it says 5 somewhere else?
02:39<Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Allow_shares says 6 years
02:40<Xaroth>5 years of safe time
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02:46<Noldo_>if (_cur_year - c->inaugurated_year < 6)
02:50<Noldo_>so if the company starts on 1.1. it is 7 years - a day and if it starts on 31.12. it's 6 + a day
03:05<Ammler>andythenorth: I guess, planetmaker does use a strange combinaton of mac-windows for grf combiling, too.
03:05<Ammler>compiling*
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03:23<Xaroth>Noldo_: your equasion is flawed? if inaugurated_year == 1000 then at 1006 that equasion will fail
03:23<Xaroth>1006 - 1000 < 6 = false
03:23<Xaroth>1005 - 1000 < 5 = true
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03:28<dihedral>where on earth do you get that result??
03:28<dihedral>1005 - 1000 < 5 = ?
03:28<Rexxars>false.
03:29<Noldo_>the equation was from the code, my analysis might not be accurate
03:29<Noldo_>dates are hard
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03:35<Xaroth> dihedral> where on earth do you get that result?? << i'm lazy and use mono to calculate that :P
03:36<Xaroth>int a = 1006; int b = 1000; Console.WriteLine("{0} - {1} < 6 = {2}", a, b, a-b<6);
03:39<Noldo>ok, 6 - a day and 5 + a day
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03:42<@Rubidium>and that even depends on the definition of 'a year' ;)
03:42<Noldo>very true
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05:03<planetmaker>I got a cargoID / translation table question: why can / should have a translation table more than 32 entries which can be set via the bit switch directly?
05:04<planetmaker>for the reason that I can define more cargos in the table and provide dedicated graphics (but not refit options)?
05:04<planetmaker>e.g. if I have milk on position 40, I could provide a special milk livery, but not provide a special milk refit option, right?
05:17<@petern>huh?
05:17<@petern>the refit mask is 32 bits, hence to make it directly refittable (as opposed to via a cargo class) it needs to be in the first 32
05:18<planetmaker>yes.
05:18<planetmaker>What use are cargo translation tables with more entries?
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05:18<Hirundo>For use in e.g. Action3?
05:19<@petern>yes
05:19<@petern>for use in action 3, and for use with cargo classes
05:19<planetmaker>so the livery / cargo graphics effects :)
05:19<planetmaker>and use with cargo classes?
05:19<planetmaker>That's the piece I'm then still missing.
05:19<@petern>action 3 for cargo specific variations
05:19<@petern>cargo classes for refittability
05:20<planetmaker>I can assign them, if defined in the cargo translation table, a cargo class or more?
05:20<planetmaker>hm... how?
05:20<@petern>no, the cargo definition assigns the cargo class
05:21<planetmaker>as found here: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=CargoTypes ?
05:21<planetmaker>or is there another cargo definition?
05:22<@petern>cargo definition being either the table of original cargo types or whatever a cargo newgrf specifies
05:25<planetmaker>hm... ok, so basically the industry grfs define what cargo class a thing belongs to, right? (though other grfs could do that, too, I assume)
05:27<@petern>no, the cargo grfs define what cargo class a thing belongs to
05:27<@petern>industries and cargos are separate, but usually defined in the same grf together
05:30<planetmaker>ok, yes. The background is: as a train set designer I have to guess the cargo classes certain types of cargos will belong to.
05:30<@petern>yup
05:30<planetmaker>unless I find descriptions as in the wiki :)
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05:30<@petern>there are descriptions of classes in the wiki
05:30<planetmaker>yes. In two places actually :). Just adding ECS to the general one, too
05:30<@petern>i proposed a solution of 'automatically add cargos in action 3 to the refit list' but that wasn't liked, iirc
05:31<planetmaker>where all others are defined, but ECS is blank in those places.
05:32<planetmaker>thanks for clarification :)
05:33<dihedral>you are welcome :-D
05:33<dihedral>*cough*
05:34<@petern>oh cock, i missed another 44 :/
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06:40<fjb>Hello
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06:46<Alberth>hai
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07:07<dihedral>wo
07:10<Ammler>da!
07:10<planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=793183#p793183 <-- there
07:10<@Rubidium>run!
07:10<@Rubidium>so fast you can walk on water ;)
07:12<planetmaker>add a "a bit" of gelantine to the ocean :P
07:13<@Rubidium>why gelatine? just freeze it ;)
07:13<planetmaker>too easy :)
07:15<@Rubidium>put earth in a higher orbit?
07:16<Noldo>you can make walkable liquid by adding starch
07:16<planetmaker>:P
07:17<Noldo>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCTxiWQQD9A
07:18<Noldo>well, runnable more like
07:19<@Rubidium>we all know about non-Newtonian liquids ;)
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07:42<elmz>is there a way to make old scenraios support freeform edges?
07:43<@petern>no
07:44<Alberth>the obvious way is to re-draw them in a newer OpenTTD version
07:44<@Rubidium>just toggle the appropriate switch I'd say, would make them 'new' scenarios though
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07:49<dihedral>what do you mean by 'support freeform edges'?
07:49<dihedral>can you not load the scn and then change the setting?
07:49<planetmaker>only one-way afaik
07:49<planetmaker>from non-freeform to freeform
07:49<planetmaker>but might be even that doesn't work.
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>it will not work if there are buoys, oil rigs or ships on the northern edges of the map
07:50<dihedral>oh?
07:51<elmz>well, it is a .scn without buoys, and industries
07:51<dihedral>did you _try_ doing anything yet?
07:52<elmz>I started it before freeform edges were implemented
07:52<dihedral>yes, i gathered that
07:52<@Rubidium>you can convert from freeform to non-freeform and vice versa as long as there's clear water at the edge
07:52<dihedral>but did you TRY to enable freeform edges?
07:52<elmz>only thing I tried was raising land close to the edges, didn't work
07:53<dihedral>Rubidium, how is that done? simply changing a config setting?
07:53<@Rubidium>well, there's a setting for freeform edges, but that's explained on the wiki and the forum
07:54<elmz>lol, it was just to change the setting ^^
07:54<elmz>thanks, didn't know there was an option for it
07:54<dihedral>that is why i asked what you had tried so far
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08:36<dragonhorseboy>any of you know if its a server glitch or exactly what is 'Server version: norev000'? :p
08:36<+glx>compiled without svn/git/hg
08:36<planetmaker>a server compiled w/o ^^
08:37<dragonhorseboy>glx..hm it does make you wonder what the real version was tho .. it shows up in both 053 and mini-in network lists .. go figure with that
08:37<dragonhorseboy>heh its passworded as well so not going bother trying look anyway
08:37<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy: norev000 means anyone can join
08:38<@Rubidium>and probably everyone gets kicked because they joined with the wrong version
08:38<dragonhorseboy>yeah that figures.. catch22 in sorta a way
08:38<dragonhorseboy>looks like only one company and no players on it now
08:41<dihedral>Rubidium, unless they have the right version :-D
08:41<dragonhorseboy>anyway what all of you doing now? nothing? heh
08:42<dihedral>have you ever heard of the word 'work'?
08:43*dragonhorseboy whacks dihedral with a ream of business letters
08:43<dragonhorseboy>that? :)
08:43*dihedral considers extending his ignore list
08:43<dihedral>my this week is busy for that list
08:44<Alberth>add all, then remove people when you miss them
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08:45<dihedral>nah
08:45<dihedral>that's too much work
08:46<CIA-3>OpenTTD: alberth * r16515 /trunk/src/ (widget.cpp widget_type.h window.cpp): -Codechange: Added scrollbar handling for nested widgets, and finding widgets by type or position in the tree.
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08:52<@petern>heh, not got rid of the second vertical scrollbar widget type yet?
08:54<Alberth>there are still 115 windows using the widget arrays
08:56<dragonhorseboy>heh .. subsidiaries are quite fun to play with here
08:57<dihedral>it would be nice to make them part of the rating system
08:57<dihedral>or at least keep a counter, of how many subsidaries a company has gotten so far
08:58<dragonhorseboy>dihedral check the patches that were used in mini-in .. it does count them
08:58<dragonhorseboy>or are you asking in a different sense?
08:58<dihedral>mini-in is OLD
08:58<dihedral>i dont talk about mini-in
08:58<dihedral>trunk is what is of interest
08:58<elmz>wow, is there actually a town limit?
08:58<dragonhorseboy>dihedral then why are you even talking about subsidiaries?
08:59<dragonhorseboy>elmz...depends who you ask
08:59<dihedral>eh - then i meant something else :-P
08:59<elmz>and so low....can't be more than 80 towns on my map
08:59<dragonhorseboy>elmz..I've seen 30,000+ myself
08:59<dragonhorseboy>(populations..don't ask)
08:59<dihedral>elmz: settings? map size?
09:00<dragonhorseboy>elmz..its kinda funny to try populate a map with tons of <200 population villages and see how much of the map you can fill
09:00<elmz>same scenario still :) 2048x2048
09:00<elmz>its all small towns
09:00<elmz>but around 80 towns I'm no longer allowed to place more towns
09:01<dihedral>and what is the error when you try to build another town?
09:01<Eddi|zuHause><elmz> wow, is there actually a town limit? <- mostly, the number of towns is limited by the number of names the town name generator can produce
09:01<dragonhorseboy>elmz..heh I had actually pondered making a map full of no industries and tons of small towns to try a bus&tram transportation system company in but I dunno yet
09:01<dragonhorseboy>kinda busy with a tropical map atm
09:01<elmz>and its got nothing to do with population limit, world population is 5200
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>so try manually renaming a town, and then found one again
09:02<elmz>ah, thx Eddi...apparently out of latin-american names :)
09:03<dihedral>hehe
09:03<elmz>Eddi: still playing Ferion? :)
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>in that case, you might want to start over with a different town name generator
09:03<dragonhorseboy>this is too silly .. i'm looking at one particular piece of the map where at least several different ai companies had bankrupted at and one is still existing .. a BIG mess of useless not-owned road tiles all over the place and the ai still can't "think" to reuse these than just building more
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>i played a game a few months ago...
09:03<dragonhorseboy>I guess the AI is always a weak one
09:04<dihedral>dragonhorseboy, what version of openttd are you playing
09:04<dragonhorseboy>the last mini-in
09:04<dragonhorseboy>have five different subsidiaries running now
09:05<elmz>I don't play much anymore myself, its a good game, but I just don't have the time for it :)
09:05<dihedral>nobody cares what the ai does in mini-in
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09:05<dragonhorseboy>dihedral..its improved from the original one at least tho (not seeing useless wood bridges anywhere)
09:05<dihedral>WHO CARES
09:05<@Belugas>hello
09:05<dihedral>hello Belugas
09:05<dragonhorseboy>you sound like you never ever play with AIs then
09:05<dihedral>grrr woof
09:06<dragonhorseboy>hey belugas
09:06<dihedral>dragonhorseboy, there is a new ai system
09:06<dihedral>called noai
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>elmz: problem of the game is that there was almost no development in the past couple of years
09:06<dihedral>i have never cared for the old ai system
09:06<dragonhorseboy>eddi..there's actually a chris-in thats dated to late 2008 (not sure why no 2009 progress..maybe holiday break)
09:07<elmz>yeah, it seems to be pretty much in stand still...
09:07<dihedral>that happens with all IN's or patch packs
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: talking about something entirely different
09:07<elmz>hehe, maybe a bit confusing to have that discussion in here :)
09:07<dragonhorseboy>eddi..no.. chris-in took the last mini-in and just advanced more newer patches into it .. I've tried it but its got a bit of memory overflow bug
09:08<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy, you shouln't play that old PP anyway
09:08<dihedral>dragonhorseboy, yes, eddi is not talking about openttd at all iirc
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09:08<elmz>dragonhorseboy: we're talking about the browser based space strategy game Ferion ;)
09:09<dihedral>users these days
09:09<dragonhorseboy>space empire? sounds interesting .. I'll stick to my the-west account for now tho
09:09<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker...then care to tell me where its replacement is yet? ;)
09:10<dragonhorseboy>actually.. I've got four worlds on the-west.net anyway
09:11<dragonhorseboy>heh I like the 10 base numbers they have on ferion site .. especially 10 base 0
09:11<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy: chrisin isn't based on miniin
09:11<dragonhorseboy>rubidium last I checked the patches .. it seem to have lifted the whole thing out of mini aside to some more options
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>well, 1 (=10^0) player wins the game ;)
09:11<dragonhorseboy>eddi..yeah :)
09:12<elmz>...or an alliance ;)
09:12<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy, I don't need replacements for patchpacks. The real thing is just fine
09:12*dragonhorseboy looks at screenshot
09:13<elmz>so actually c*10^0 , c = [1, 6] ;)
09:13<dragonhorseboy>hmm I take it its based on html+ajax? (ferion)
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>well, only the top 3 are declared winner in that case
09:14<elmz>right
09:15<elmz>ah well, I've never ranked higher than 4 ^^
09:15<elmz>back in game #104 or something ^^
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>6 people alliances... the average used to be 4 in the old days...
09:16<elmz>hehe, I just picked a number seeing as there is no limit to alliance sizes, just penalties for large ones :)
09:16<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy: the fact that chrisin starts at r10292 of trunk, miniin was last at trunk around 7500, chrisin misses grolsch's realistic acceleration, chrisin adds patches that were in miniin way after it's first steps and chrisin doesn't have subsidiaries is a pretty argument against chrisin being based on miniin
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>well, there were 20 people alliances before the penalty got introduced :p
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09:16<elmz>hehe
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09:26<@petern>Rubidium, but it's got "IN" in the name!
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09:31<dihedral>uh
09:31<dihedral>petern has a point
09:31<dihedral>how could one not see that right away?
09:32<dihedral>it's so obvious now
09:34<@Rubidium>petern: so you played in Die Hard 2?
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10:07<CIA-3>OpenTTD: alberth * r16516 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp osk_gui.cpp window.cpp window_gui.h): -Codechange: Added click and drag handling for nested widgets.
10:10<Rexxars>some serious GUI work lately
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10:31<Alberth>just making a bit of room
10:34<CIA-3>OpenTTD: alberth * r16517 /trunk/src/ (intro_gui.cpp town_gui.cpp window.cpp window_gui.h): -Codechange: Switched intro-screen and town directory window to nested widget trees.
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11:16<Hirundo>Alberth: are there any short- to mid-term plans to make the y-distance between text lines dependant on font height?
11:16<Hirundo>i.e. replacing ORDER_LIST_LINE_HEIGHT with something that is font height-dependant
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12:11<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: long term goal is a scalable GUI, so adaptible line height should be part of that
12:12<Alberth>At this time, I don't look at specific sizes, it is more about making the window layout as a whole more flexible, so your option becomes possible.
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12:25<CIA-3>OpenTTD: translators * r16518 /trunk/src/lang/swedish.txt:
12:25<CIA-3>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-06-04 16:25:41
12:25<CIA-3>OpenTTD: swedish - 39 fixed by daishan (39)
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13:04<Eddi|zuHause>:o
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>hello, Tron ;)
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13:14<@petern>hello sir tron
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13:14<dihedral>he's a little silent ^^
13:15<_ln>a Tron!
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13:39<@Belugas>mmh
13:40<@Belugas>although he's from germany, somehow, not sure he's the same. but hey...he can change provider...
13:40<@Belugas>if he is wel...
13:40<@Belugas>Welcome back Tron
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14:35<z-MaTRiX>hey
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15:44<andythenorth>petern: what's the status on roadtypes? I ask only for grf set planning purposes :)
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15:47<@Rubidium>I'd say: less finished than railtypes
15:47<frosch123>likely not started at all
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>i'd refer to fuzzle.org/o but that appears to only have old patches
15:48<frosch123>oh, no, I am a liar
15:48<@Rubidium>oh, the repos is even empty
15:48<frosch123>hehe, yeah that fooled me :o
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15:49<frosch123>andythenorth: http://hg.openttd.org/developers/peter1138/roadtypes.hg/ <- is there a better answer :)
15:49<andythenorth>thanks. my assumption is that when (if) it's done, I'm going to want to recode HEQS to make use of it. And probably do at least one roadset for it (trails). So if it's not done, that's a bit of a relief ;)
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15:49<andythenorth>...back to shark fishing for now then
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>take all the time you need ;)
15:50<andythenorth>bleargh. photoshop crashed
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15:51<@Rubidium>andythenorth: liar... it's Adobe implementation of something like Workpace in Photoshop
15:51<andythenorth>I have no idea what you're talking about but I'm sure you're 100% correct
15:52<@Rubidium>Workpace is an anti-RSI tool that makes you wait every few minutes
15:52<andythenorth>:)
15:53<andythenorth>I think Apple call their implementation of that 'beachball'. Or 'iCal'
15:53<@Rubidium>though the problem is that such tools work on my nerves and get me more agitated only making it worse instead of better
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15:54<andythenorth>anyone want to go fishing at the beach?
15:55*Rubidium passes
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15:57<@petern>erm, yes, somewhat 'unfinished' you might say
15:58<planetmaker>obviously the beach isn't unfi(ni)shed, though ;)
15:59<andythenorth>planetmaker: funny you say that. I am drawing a shed.
15:59<andythenorth>spooky
15:59<planetmaker>:D
16:01<theholyduck_>Rubidium, i just have a timer on for every 30 minutes
16:02<theholyduck_>and i stretch constantly when NOT using a computer
16:02<theholyduck_>or whenever i make a new cup of tea
16:02<theholyduck_>or anything :P
16:02<theholyduck_>stretching exercises and pushups and anything else that loosens and rebalances your muscles
16:02<theholyduck_>is what you need :P
16:02<theholyduck_>also, dont use flatline keyboards
16:03<theholyduck_>model m's or ergonomical keyboards :P
16:03<theholyduck_>workspace is just overly obtrusive
16:03<theholyduck_>*pace
16:04<@Rubidium>anything that disturbs a programmer is *very* bad for efficiency
16:05<theholyduck_>Rubidium, true :P
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16:05<theholyduck_>Rubidium, wich why you do as much stretching and relaxation as you can when NOT using a computer
16:05<andythenorth>rsi is pretty disturbing :(
16:05<theholyduck_>and also type with a GOOD keyboard
16:05<theholyduck_>like a model m
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16:06*Rubidium doesn't trust those people 'specialised' in preventing RSI; I followed their 'rules' for one day (as in they said I was doing it right) and I had a sore wrist for the rest of the week :(
16:07<Nite_Owl>Hello all
16:07<theholyduck_>Rubidium, well my doctor gave me a pretty good advice i think
16:08<@Rubidium>ah, that's the model m keyboard... ideally useful for weight lifting ;)
16:08<theholyduck_>stretch when you go to bed and when you wake up
16:08<theholyduck_>and beffore you eat
16:08<theholyduck_>also use a keyboard that requires some EFFORT to use
16:08<theholyduck_>as in, actual MUSCLES involved
16:08<andythenorth>not convinced by my shed :( back to the drawing board (literally)
16:09<theholyduck_>Rubidium, basicly, i got loads of rsi symptoms.. 4 or so years ago
16:09<theholyduck_>when i was 14
16:09<theholyduck_>since then i've been following those base ideas, and its been improving massivly
16:10<frosch123>[22:07] * Rubidium doesn't trust those people 'specialised' in preventing RSI; I followed their 'rules' for one day (as in they said I was doing it right) and I had a sore wrist for the rest of the week :( <- did you actually use a pedal button instead of clicking with the mouse?
16:10<theholyduck_>frosch123, why?
16:10<theholyduck_>most programmers/power users hardly ever touch the mouse
16:11<@Rubidium>yup... alsamixer :)
16:11<frosch123>I'm just reading the wiki article about rsi, and I am quite impressed about some stuff written there. Like using pedals instead of mouse buttons, or using two mice, one for moving, one for clicking...
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16:12<theholyduck_>frosch123, this summer i'm going to try something i think might be a prety good solution
16:12<theholyduck_>1 hand chording keyboard
16:12<theholyduck_>with built in mouse controlls
16:12<theholyduck_>lets you walk and write, stand and write and keep the hand at a completely relaxed position and write
16:13<theholyduck_>while also doing simple mouse navigation
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16:22<andythenorth>petern: thanks for the answer :)
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16:45<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes i'd really like a one-handed keyboard
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17:02<andythenorth>I'd like pixels that draw themselves. And possibly to not have drunk cider earlier.
17:04<andythenorth>http://www.thatcherscider.co.uk/products/draught/cheddarvally/
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17:31<andythenorth>enough pixels. Guess what I had for supper? Fish fingers. Goodnight.
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17:36<@Belugas>guess waht, i had no supper yet, since i'm still stuck in thisw FUCKING OFFICE!!!
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17:37<Xaroth>sucks to be you then
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17:40<@Belugas>believe me, it does
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17:42<Xaroth>what do you do then?
17:42<Xaroth>besides being hungry
17:42<@Belugas>debugging, a matter of performance
17:42<@Belugas>critical for the cstomer
17:42<Xaroth>ah
17:42<@Belugas>fuck fuck fuck fuck
17:43<Xaroth>be glad yer not screaming fsck fsck fsck fsck fsck
17:43<Xaroth>:P
17:46<dihedral>well actually - Belugas has something i do really envy him for:-)
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17:47<@Belugas>mmh?
17:48<@Belugas>a wife?
17:48<@Belugas>a bad temper?
17:48<@Belugas>no... that one, you already have...
17:48<@Belugas>mmh... an axe?
17:48<@Belugas>ho... a son :D
17:48<@Belugas>yeah!
17:48<@Belugas>a bus to catch!!!
17:48<@Belugas>Even better!!!!
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17:48<@Belugas>ciao
17:48<dihedral>family :-)
17:49<dihedral>enjoy Belugas
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19:26<welshdragon>Prof_Frink: jou just lost the game
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---Logclosed Fri Jun 05 00:00:50 2009