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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-06-16

---Logopened Tue Jun 16 00:00:47 2009
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00:55<_ln>good morning to you too
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04:06<blueleader>hi...who help me with instalation of oepnttd??
04:08<blueleader>I used openttd 0.7.1 worked ok, but after upgrade on openttd 0.7.1 the game faild...
04:09<blueleader>hi...are you here?
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04:12<@Rubidium>blueleader: failed in what way?
04:14<blueleader>rubidium: after instalation the game need original set of dos graphics and I don´t know why?? when I just instal finale version od O.7.1
04:16<@Rubidium>is it complaining about *only* TRGT.GRF?
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04:19<blueleader>the original error message is : Failed to select requested grapfics set "origilan_dos"
04:20<@Rubidium>go to the install directory of OpenTTD and find orig_dos_de.obg (in data/ directory) and remove that file
04:22<blueleader>I do it now, but:-( error game need TGR1.grf and next graphics file from TTD CR-ROM...but i have just "new" windows files...
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04:24<@Rubidium>then open openttd.cfg (probably in mydocuments/OpenTTD/), find the line with graphicsset = "orig_dos" and remove that
04:26<@Rubidium>however you either have created that configuaration file yourself, which means you had the dos graphics with the 0.7.1-RC3 version or you copied the config from someone with the dos graphics
04:28<blueleader>thanks...I go to try it...
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06:46<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16579 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: rework smallmap code a bit; remove goto, remove some unneeded variables, return value directly instead of writing it to a variable to later return that
06:47<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: sorry ;)
06:48<@Rubidium>oh, I broke one of his patches ;)
06:49<@Rubidium>though this will reduce his patch size
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06:56<Phazorx>were there some changes in options touching in-a-way stations? as in track depriorising stations (yapf pealty)
06:56<Phazorx>trains seem to stop on them now, didn't used to be like that
06:57<@Rubidium>changes since when?
06:57<dragonhorseboy>just have one nitpick to say about IS2 if anyone minds .. how come when all three rail sharing options are turned on and the companies enabled there's still no mean to actually join any new company A tracks to existing company B mainline? seem to annoying makes the sharing feature useless if trains can't reach
06:57<dragonhorseboy>(and the player is rarely online so its pointless waiting for them to finally be around to make the junction for you hopefully the way you needed it)
06:57<Yexo>Phazorx: most likely you are not using non-stop orders
06:58<dragonhorseboy>don't mind my ranting there :->
06:58<Phazorx>Yexo: these trains just pass by, they have no orders for that station at all
06:58<Phazorx>Rubidium: since like a year ago
06:58<@petern>dragonhorseboy, actually we do. speak to hirundo on the forums
06:58<@Rubidium>default order = stop at all stations you pass
06:58<@petern>or, i suppose, here, heh
06:59<Phazorx>Rubidium: is it disableable?
06:59<@Rubidium>Phazorx: set "non stop" orders
06:59<dragonhorseboy>petern..other than that one slight issue at times I actually am having fun sharing airports and planes already :)
06:59<@Rubidium>Phazorx: since 0.7 there is a new order system that allows you to both have non-stop and via orders instead of only one
07:00<Phazorx>Rubidium: that's a bit tidious... there can be 100 of them on a big map and that number changes all the time
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07:00<@Rubidium>Phazorx: tedious in what way?
07:00<Phazorx>Rubidium: are you familiar with concept of pathfinder penalty station?
07:01<fonsinchen>oh, nice. Did you just clean up some of the magic in smallmap?
07:01<@Rubidium>Phazorx: a bit
07:01<Phazorx>imagine big network with hundreds of them
07:01<dragonhorseboy>petern I've actually kinda wondered about when jonty resets the map I'll have to try adjust my fee accordingly then try act as a company that only owns tracks alone but contracts out to everyone else to run the actual trains
07:01<dragonhorseboy>but then who knows :P
07:01<@Rubidium>whether there is 1 or a million, it doesn't matter for the non-stop order; it ignores ALL stations until it comes to the station in the order
07:02<@Rubidium>with the via order it stops at all stations and passes through the station in the order
07:02<Phazorx>scartch that... not even possible actualy - a train on multi track mainline can use some and not use others i can not list them in orders
07:02<Noldo>Rubidium: he seems to be refering to the amount of work needed to change all the orders in his network
07:02<@Rubidium>with non-stop via orders it ignores all stations and passes through the station in the order
07:02<Phazorx>Rubidium: that applies to stations thatare in the list corect?
07:03<@Rubidium>Noldo: he seems to be thinking that you need to list all stations it must NOT stop at in the order list with non-stop
07:03<Phazorx>say A is origin D is destination, there are multiple tracks a train can choose, one of them has B and C and other track has none
07:03<Phazorx>what the order list should be for that train
07:03<@Rubidium>go non stop to D
07:04<@Rubidium>and if you want to go back
07:04<@Rubidium>go non stop to A
07:04<Phazorx>so non stop applies now to the way before the station rather than to the station itself?
07:04<@Rubidium>if D is a waypoint it becomes go non stop via D
07:04<@Rubidium>Phazorx: yes and via applies to the station in the order list
07:04<Phazorx>i see so via is old none stop
07:05<Phazorx>and none stop is old option of ttdpatch non stop handling?
07:05<@Rubidium>Phazorx: depending on the settings
07:05<Phazorx>i actually havent found in advanced options nothing relevant to non-stop stations
07:05<@Rubidium>Phazorx: I get always confused with what non-stop means with ttdpatch non-stop handling turned on/off
07:06<@petern>"ttdpatch non stop handling" was a CROCK of BULLSHIT
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07:06<@petern>non-stop means non-stop, i.e. don't stop along the way
07:06<Phazorx>petern: nethertheless it was an option in ottd config which i remember
07:06<@petern>it was, it was shit
07:06<@Rubidium>Phazorx: with emphasis on *was*
07:06<Phazorx>well thanks for clarification
07:06<@Rubidium>Phazorx: Vehicle -> "New orders are 'non-stop' by default"
07:06<Phazorx>i didnt get the memo :)
07:07<@petern>you got the changelog
07:07<@Rubidium>Phazorx: then read the changelog ;)
07:07<Phazorx>Rubidium: and what exactly that option does if i may ask?
07:07<Phazorx>that would be quite a hefty log for 12-14 months
07:07<Phazorx>but i'll do that some day
07:08<@Rubidium>Phazorx: what about making new orders 'non-stop' by default?
07:08<Phazorx>Rubidium: that sentence is not clear to me
07:08<Phazorx>at least was not
07:09<@Rubidium>i.e. if you make a new order instead of being "go to X" it will be "go non-stop to X"
07:09<Phazorx>gotcha now
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07:09<@Rubidium>so much easier to remember than what ttdp compatible non-stop means
07:13<Phazorx>i rembered it as "click here and it works"
07:13<@Rubidium>please explain what it means for someone who doesn't know ttdp ;)
07:14<Phazorx>tyeah... well in my case renaming the option to something more meaningfull would have more sense than changing concept of what the old thing was
07:15<@Rubidium>Phazorx: well, renaming wouldn't make non-stop via orders possible
07:15<@petern>the system has vastly changed
07:15<@petern>it's not just a rename
07:17<Phazorx>petern: i can se that now... can you enlighten me on the gist of the changes?
07:17<@Rubidium>1) making the settings more clear
07:18<@Rubidium>2) making it possible to have non-stop *AND* ttdp compatible non-stop in the same game, in the same order list and in the same order
07:18<@Rubidium>3) making it more clear for newbies
07:18<@Rubidium>4) making non-stop available for waypoints
07:19<@Rubidium>5) making non-stop available for road vehicles
07:19<Phazorx>werent way points non stop by default?
07:19<@petern>no reason for it
07:19<Phazorx>and i should try rv non stops... perhaps it can be usefull
07:19<@petern>you want to go via that waypoint, doesn't mean you don't want to visit any station before it
07:20<Phazorx>petern: but that would really be "any station"
07:21<Phazorx>btw, anything was changed in aspect of entry/exit/combo signals
07:21<Phazorx>is it possible to do round robin switching or something of that nature now?
07:24<Ammler>Phazorx: set the advanced setting for degault behaviour, before you load a "older" save
07:24<Ammler>ups, forgot to scroll :-)
07:24<@petern>presignals have not changed
07:25<@petern>but yapp is there and generally much better
07:25<@petern>unless you're the freaky sort who likes priority systems
07:26<dragonhorseboy>I do have to admit I liked the two path signals additional in ottd .. makes it easier to manage the ottd-typical large junctions
07:26<Phazorx>petern: i'm beyond level of freaky
07:26<@petern>you're phazorxy
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07:27<Phazorx>i'm glad you see it this way ;o)
07:27<Phazorx>one more thing i'd like to ask since i got dev's attention now
07:28<Phazorx>diagonal speed is still sqrt(2) * regular ?
07:28<Phazorx>and trains still strech when they enter curves?
07:28<@Rubidium>it never has been sqrt(2) * regular
07:28<Phazorx>i should rephrase that
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>whatever the behaviour once was, it is probably not going to change
07:29<@petern>behaviour hasn't changed
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>because it comes with a big load of secondary changes
07:30<@petern>guess what
07:30<@petern>i made a patch for it once...
07:30<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: i sugegst "superficial aproach" that would not require major changes
07:30<Phazorx>trying to find the bug report
07:30<Phazorx>and failing now
07:30<Phazorx>looks like it was not only closed but deleted
07:31<@petern>there is no superficial approach
07:31<@Rubidium>bug reports aren't delete
07:31<@Rubidium>petern: there is; no diagonal rail, but only 90 degree turns
07:31<Phazorx>that wasnt what i suggested
07:31<Phazorx>i offered different math
07:32<Phazorx>which would affect cost calculated
07:32<@petern>the thing with fixing it properly is you break every single newgrf
07:32<@petern>but incidentally, you don't break the original graphics
07:32<Phazorx>i understand that and was never suggesting anything of the likes
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: problem is, not only the speed is wrong, also the length, and changing that will need graphical changes as well
07:33<Phazorx>i'd rather live with cost being off a bit when trains move diagonally than see them strch as they turn
07:33<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: yes i/m aware of that but graphical changes will be at engine level
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>you are not making sense
07:34<Phazorx>not the newgrf
07:34<Phazorx>lemme find the damn bug post
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>no, what petern meant that newgrfs abuse the current system to make it "look right"
07:34<@petern>cost? what?
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>if you change that, it will "look wrong"
07:34<fonsinchen>Rubidium: Actually I was going to change RemapX and RemapY as they are only called for RemapCoords. So I was going to write a special RemapCoords for smallmap.
07:35<fonsinchen>And remove RemapX and RemapY again.
07:35<Phazorx>Eddi|zuHause: streching trains and different speeds of head and tail of same train does not look wrong to you now?
07:35<@petern>it's not different speeds
07:36<@petern>actually it is, isn't it :)
07:36<@petern>Phazorx, basically i made a patch
07:36<@Rubidium>not having the trains stretch ==> not having too wide graphics for trains ==> changes in graphics ==> requires newgrf changes. Not having to change NewGRF implies that you don't stetch trains
07:36<@petern>i tried very hard to make it work
07:36<Phazorx>petern: can i have a lookse?
07:36<@petern>but it just wouldn't, without crashing
07:36<@petern>anyway, the movement code got changed after that, so maybe it's possible now
07:36<@Rubidium>s/don't stretch/don't change stretching'
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>Phazorx: whatever it is, people are used to it, and changing it will make people upset
07:37<Phazorx>who cares about people this gae is about trains
07:37<@petern>no it's not :)
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07:39<@Rubidium>hmm, did I just break Phazorx?
07:39<fonsinchen>He was thinking he's a train. So your comment induced an existential crisis.
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07:48<Smoky555>hi all :)
07:49<Smoky555>does anybody know, from what grf pack/file is this trees?
07:49<Yexo>the snowy trees are custom and never published I think
07:49<Yexo>the non-snowy versions are stolen trees (by SAC?)
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07:51<Ammler>Smoky555: you find on the openttdcoop page a tabe with all grfs in the pack, there is also a link to the published snomy stolen tree.
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07:51<Smoky555>Ammler : ok
07:52<Operation>i have a question..^^;
07:52<Operation>please teach me
07:52<Yexo>I have questions too
07:52<planetmaker>who would have guessed ;)
07:53<Operation>i want to make goal server. but i don't know that
07:53<Yexo>you have to patch the server yourself
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07:53<Yexo>yes, and then compile it
07:53<Operation>where get this patch? ^^;;
07:54<Yexo>where did I say there was an existing patch?
07:54<Yexo>you might find something by searching for OHG, (openttd hard goal), but there site seems to be done
07:54<Yexo>there repo was still up last time I checked
07:55<Operation>i try join OHG web page. but i can't. permission denied.
07:56<Operation>Yexo thank you ^^;
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08:15*dragonhorseboy wonders where commcody could be now
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08:48<dragonhorseboy>heh seem both channels are quite dead now
08:53<@Rubidium>#openttd at freenode is dead
08:54<@Rubidium>this channel isn't quite dead yet
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08:54<dragonhorseboy>noldo..yeah noone seem to be talking at all
08:54<Noldo>that like saying a night club is lame because there is no people in the daytime
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09:01<dragonhorseboy>so what you doing?
09:03<@Rubidium>getting annoyed by pointless smalltalk
09:05*dragonhorseboy pokes rubidium (then why are you on irc?)
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09:13<@Rubidium>asking things related to OpenTTD, like:
09:13<@Rubidium>why do we have an extend_vehicle_life option? Does anyone use it?
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09:14<@Rubidium>can it be removed? why doesn't it prevent overflowing?
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>imho, vehicle lifetime should be reworked
09:15<+tokai>extend_vehicle_life, is that the option which stops vehicles from getting old or the one which stops from vehicle types to disappear? I use both of them :)
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>like celestar once proposed: vehicle lifetime should be the time it takes for the vehicle to drop to half reliability
09:16<@Belugas>H e l l o
09:16<LordAzamath>oh omg hai
09:16<LordAzamath>Hello Belugs
09:16<+tokai>If you play only for the railroad network buildup... then all this timeout stuff can get annoying.:)
09:16<@Belugas>i kow the feeling LordAzamath ;)
09:16<@Belugas>gaa.. +n
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>tokai: i use daylength for that ;)
09:16*Belugas silences now
09:17<@Rubidium>but with extend_vehicle_life vehicles still get old, only later (or earlier if it overflows)
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>if only there were a trunk-quality daylength patch :(
09:18<planetmaker>go go go, Eddi|zuHause ;)
09:18<LordAzamath>write it :)
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: what exactly does that setting do?
09:18<LordAzamath>or get planetbaker to write it :D
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>the name is not very descriptive
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>if you want them to build it for you, press 1?
09:18<+tokai>Rubidium: That sounds a bit pointless. Just ON/OFF for this kind of thing is good enough IMHO. No need to spam the game with millions of options. A bit streamlining can't hurt there:)
09:19<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it adds between 0 and 100 years to the vehicle's life
09:19<@petern>we have it because ttdpatch has it, i think
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense
09:21<@Rubidium>petern: vehicles never expire => persistent engines, but extend vehicle life => ? (I can't find it)
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09:23<@petern>persistent engines again, i believe
09:25<@petern>hmm, or not
09:27<LordAzamath>TF2 time :)
09:28<LordAzamath>or no
09:28<LordAzamath>actually Portal perhaps
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09:31<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16580 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: rename Engine::image_index to original_image_index to not confuse it with image_index from *VehInfo.
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09:35<@Belugas>DeathMole ride again!
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>i can never tell if this is a line from a song or a random outburst of insanity
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>... or both ;)
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09:47<@Belugas>that is my course of action: play DeathMole ;) Thus, DeathMole rides again on my mp3 player!
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09:52<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16581 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: unify the access to Engine::lifelength.
10:00<dragonhorseboy>is there no way to make ottd default to full load rather than that 'full load of any cargo' thing?
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>i second that (implicit) request...
10:01<@Belugas>the default of one is not the default of the other
10:01<@Belugas>proof is...
10:01<@Belugas>your request ;)
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>better: allow setting defaults for each of the dropdown boxes in the order window
10:02<dragonhorseboy>belugas..I want my train to be 100% full not what ottd thinks is only 20% which is not *actual* full load
10:04<@Rubidium>the answer on dragonhorseboy's question is no
10:04<dragonhorseboy>so what is the meaning of "full load" if its not even at least 80% of many trains?
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>if your train carries 8 bags of mail and 300 passengers, full load (any) means leave if you have either 8 bags of mail or 300 passengers, full load (all) means leave if you have both 8 bags of mail and 300 passengers
10:06<@Rubidium>huh? full load any cargo => if at least one cargo type is fully loaded that requirement passes
10:07<dragonhorseboy>eddi..whats the point of only eight bags when there could had actually been 300 passengers instead?
10:07<blathijs>You might want a full load (passengers) or full load (biggest) then :-)
10:07<dragonhorseboy>(such is the annoyance of so many emus that can't even be refit to pure passenger)
10:07<@petern>COULD HAVE BEEN
10:07<dragonhorseboy>neverminding ANY planes
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>planes are special, they always focus on passengers
10:08<@Rubidium>planes always full load passengers (some ancient hack)
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10:11<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: feel free to provide an infrastructure (code and gui) to allow full load of a specific cargo... but dropdowns with >7 entries are troublesome (there can be up to 32 cargos)
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>(7 is the number of objects the human brain can track simultaneously)
10:12<dragonhorseboy>hmm or know what, just had a second thought now - 'ttdpatch compactible full load' button in the advanced configuration?
10:12<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but 1 dropdown isn't enough, you might want to have a train with 32 cargos that full loads all except one!
10:13<dragonhorseboy>or something by that name anyhow
10:13<@Rubidium>what is 'ttdp compatible full load'?
10:13<dragonhorseboy>so I don't have to keep chasing 30+ trains that refuse to actually load passengers just because they couldn't be refit
10:13<dragonhorseboy>rubidium..same behaviour as the patch?
10:14<@Rubidium>which is?
10:14<@Rubidium>based on TTDP's manual the full load type that they add is "full load any"
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10:15<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: you can easily add a newgrf that adds the refit option
10:15<dragonhorseboy>I've always had my train waiting till they were actually full before leaving .. ever since 2.5 beta-1
10:16<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy: so choose "full load" instead of "full load any" from the dropdown!
10:16<dragonhorseboy>don't recall touching anything (aside to ever-changing town growth..I'm still not sure its right yet) through all version updates
10:17<dragonhorseboy>rubidium..or make it actually the same click as ever since either ttdp or ottd 0.5x? :)
10:18<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy: that would limit loading to either "full load" or "full load any" game wide, which is restrictive
10:18<dragonhorseboy>(hm which of sometimes the chat line annoying pops up when I hit T wanting to build a least I rarely build any tunnels in ottd anyway so meh don't care)
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i said, just add an option for the default setting. there is a default setting for non-stop, and one for middle-stop, but not one for full load...
10:18<dragonhorseboy> are you saying you'll prefer a lot of trains to not even have half of their capacity used at all?
10:19<dragonhorseboy>eddi...that what I just thought before too :)
10:19<@Rubidium>dragonhorseboy: where did I say that?
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is, it should be more flexible
10:20<dragonhorseboy>eddi...btw I tried the middle-stop thing for a while but finally just ignored it because when the train stopped in middle it would then run forward to end of platform before turning around .. not sure if its just a bug with IS2 build or not
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>now for something completely different: someone once told me that refits with a capacity of 0 are problematic, is that still the case?
10:20<dragonhorseboy>(and yes the difficulty setting says trains can reverse at stations)
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>like if an engine has 3 different liveries throughout its lifetime, and i want to change the livery without selling/rebuying the engine
10:21<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I don't know, I guess you should ask frosch
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>then i would want to have current-date-dependent refit options
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>but the engine should not carry cargo in any case
10:21<dragonhorseboy>eddi hmm you could ask danmack and OZ about it because canset allows you to refit locomotives to different livery and these locomotives have zero cargo capacity (eg EMD F7 in three colours)
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>dragonhorseboy: the question is, is that refit independent from the attached wagons?
10:22<dragonhorseboy>eddi...ah hmm good question :/
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>or are actually the wagons refitted, and the engine changes look based on that
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10:23<dragonhorseboy> canset the passenger wagons sometimes change to match the engine .. eg if you refit the F7 is VIA then the coaches are blue .. but if its CN instead the coaches become black-white
10:23<dragonhorseboy>but freights are static for most part I think
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>also, i believe they introduce a special hidden cargo type for that
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>but i'm not really sure how that works
10:26<dragonhorseboy>you always could ask either danmack or OZ about it I'm sure
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10:30<planetmaker><Eddi|zuHause> dragonhorseboy: the question is, is that refit independent from the attached wagons? <--- it can be either or, afaik
10:30<svip>Wait, suggestion of realism is no longer a bannable offence?
10:30<svip>This is an outrage.
10:30<planetmaker>it's a special cargo type.
10:31<dragonhorseboy>anyway I'm going for now ;)
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10:31<planetmaker>and livery refit could be conditional on the wagons wagons.
10:33<planetmaker>cargotype 0x80000000 or alike is reserved for such intricacies.
10:33<@petern>good luck with that
10:33<@petern>cargo type is a byte
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10:34<planetmaker>ah, then it was cargoID :)
10:34<planetmaker>at least that thing for action0, properties 28,29 and 1D
10:34<@petern>cargoid is cargo type
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10:34<@petern>cargo class is a word
10:34<svip>A word?
10:34<svip>A word does not contain spaces.
10:34<svip>English is a cheating language.
10:34<@petern>harr harr
10:35<svip>The only reason it has so many "words", is because anything apparently can be a word.
10:35<planetmaker>yes cargo classes was it. ty
10:35<SpComb>how many bytes in a word?
10:35<svip>So I read that the one millionth English word is "Web 2.0".
10:35<svip>What? That is not a word! That's a term!
10:36<planetmaker>darn. wrong again. 2, of course ;)
10:36<svip>Since when was word and term synonymous!?
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10:37<SpComb>but in an x86 context, presumeably 2
10:37<@petern>well yes, i was taught that a byte is 8 bits and a word is ... whatever 'bit size' the system is
10:38<@petern>but the advent of x86 seems to have changed that to 16 bits to a word, 32 bits to a dword...
10:43<@Belugas>svip : Web 2.0 is a word (web) associated with a space and a number. it's therefor for a word
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>hm... they canceled primeval...
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10:58<Eddi|zuHause>hm... thunderstorm outside...
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10:59<svip>Belugas: I am not buying that argument.
10:59<svip>It's a term.
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11:06<@Belugas>neither am i
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: anyone ever told you to not be drinking before noon?
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11:08<frosch123>residual alcohol from yesterday?
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11:14<Eddi|zuHause>i never figured out what "hein" actually meant...
11:15<@Belugas>would be like.. "What?"
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11:16<@Rubidium>but but... a whole conversation can be 'a word'
11:17<frosch123>hypothesis: while belugas is drunken, he produces less typos
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>like welsh people can put the whole history of the town into its name?
11:17<@Rubidium>"I want to have a word with you"
11:19<@Belugas>'m not drunk!
11:19<@Belugas>I work!!!
11:25<@Rubidium>no, you talk on IRC!
11:32<@Belugas>me? i though i was writing :P
11:32<@Belugas>you mean you do speach recognition??
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11:34<@Rubidium>Belugas: my dictionary says talk means (amongst others) "to convey information or communicate in any way"
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11:37*Belugas stops "talking"
11:37<@petern>start playing
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12:03<Phazorx>is it possible to get exact count of paths leading between 2 pathfinder nodes (2 stations for example)
12:03<Phazorx>or in current PF searches arent exhaustive?
12:04<@Rubidium>assuming vehicles can get from station 1 to station 2 and back the exact number of paths is infinite
12:05<@Rubidium>even so, the pathfinders search for the shortest path, not for all paths
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12:06<Phazorx>why infinite?
12:06<Phazorx>let's say rails
12:07<Phazorx>if there is single one way line between 2 points - there is only one path
12:07<@Rubidium>Phazorx: a->b is one path, a->b->a->b is another path, repeat...
12:07<Phazorx>if that lane splits somewhere and heads to different platforms of same destination station - there are 2 ways
12:09<Phazorx>hmm... let's start with this then - curent pathfinders operate based on final paths?
12:09<@Rubidium>what is final?
12:09<Phazorx>a way to get to destination, step by step whole way
12:09<Phazorx>rather than get moving towards destination and calculate rest as getting closer
12:09<@Rubidium>some do and some don't
12:10<Phazorx>let's say yapf?
12:10<Yexo>Phazorx:* <- a good reading
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12:10<Phazorx>i'm familiar on subject of what a* is
12:11<@Rubidium>yapf and npf are a*
12:11<@Rubidium>the rest is not a*
12:11<Phazorx>so final paths ate determined then for yapf and npf
12:11<Phazorx>in that case: if a->b is final path what is a->b->a->b then?
12:12<Yexo>one of the infinite alternative paths
12:12<@Rubidium>another possible path, which is NOT the shortest path
12:12<Phazorx>but if destination reached as part of alternative path is there a point?
12:12<Phazorx>ahh.. i see
12:13<@Rubidium>if you would know A* you would know that it will never find looped paths
12:13<Phazorx>that was your example
12:13<@Rubidium>and that A* does not find all possible paths (because it ignores loops)
12:14<Phazorx>why i asked - is there a way to determine if thre is one or more than one ways to get to destination without reusing same tracks
12:14<@Rubidium>Phazorx: you were asking for the exact number of paths, A* only gives an estimate; "none" or "at least one"
12:15<Phazorx>a* gives weighted list i presume
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12:15<@Rubidium>a* returns ONLY 1 (or 0) paths
12:15<Phazorx>i meant implementation within openttd
12:15<Phazorx>but you are right i have no idea how it actualy works
12:15<@Rubidium>and if you presume things about A* then you don't know A*
12:16<Phazorx>my assumptions was - if it makes decision based on A* and multiple possible routes it has to produce wighted crietria for eachw ay to be able to make that decision
12:16<@Rubidium>if you want to know all paths (that do not loop), you'll have to use a simple depth first search
12:17<Yexo>Phazorx: and that assumptionj doesn't hold
12:17<Phazorx>well for my purposes what i want to know if there is zero, one or more
12:17<Yexo>you don't need to know all paths to know that one is best
12:17<Phazorx>Yexo: explain plz
12:17<Phazorx>Yexo: actualy you kinda do
12:18<Phazorx>otherwise you can only know relative weights
12:18<@Rubidium>A* doesn't tell whether there is more than one
12:18<Phazorx>like that one is better than the other one
12:18<@Rubidium>but it sounds like you have no idea how A* works
12:18<Phazorx>Rubidium: that i already got, but aside of A*, that question in generla context of openttd rail networks
12:18<Yexo>*#Why_A.2A_is_admissible_and_computationally_optimal that explains why you don't need to know all paths
12:20<@Rubidium>A* always finds only one shortest (one with least weight) path. If there are more with the same weight it will still only find the first it encounters.
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12:39<Phazorx>well unfortunatelly it doesnt really answer my question on wether or not it is possible to find all the paths (all unique paths with at least one different node from any other path, while not including paths that consist of already known path + C)
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12:40<@Rubidium>it is possible, but not with the code in OpenTTD
12:40<frosch123>your problem is ill-formed, or do you consider starting from the same station as two different nodes?
12:42<frosch123>if you can resolve that "ill-formedness", might help you
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12:45<Phazorx>strating from same station as 2 differnt nodes?
12:46<Phazorx>Rubidium: i guess i'm interested in plain topology rather than weighted paths, like base graph structure of junctions between A and B
12:46<frosch123>and the track right in front of the station? or do you want to use bidirectional stations only?
12:46<Phazorx>frosch123: i really dont get you
12:47<Phazorx>what i ask is slightly abstracted from tracks/station layer
12:47<@Rubidium>what you ask isn't calculated in OpenTTD.
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12:48<Phazorx>Rubidium: not even as a part of yapf/npf?
12:48<@Rubidium>you can write code so OpenTTD calculates it, but that is up to you to do.
12:48<@Rubidium>Phazorx: no
12:48<@Rubidium>YAPF/NPF are ONLY interested in the shortest path
12:48<@Rubidium>not in whether there is another path that is longer
12:48<frosch123>Phazorx: maybe you want to compute a block-articulation tree of your network, but that is again something far from a*
12:50<Phazorx>Rubidium: what is used as comparition criteria for "bad nodes" ?
12:50<Phazorx>i mean h() function (if i recall a*)
12:50<Phazorx>frosch123: close to but even simplier than that
12:50<@Rubidium>h() is just manhattan distance times some constant
12:52<frosch123>hmm, I fail to find the good translation for "block", wiki knows about articulations and bridges, but then it describes them as 2-connected-subgraphs :/
12:52<@Rubidium>the cost is made up of signals (incl. their state), and stations etc.
12:53<@Rubidium>basically all the pathfinder penalties you can find in openttd.cfg
12:53<Phazorx>Rubidium: yeah, i seen config many times as well as tweaked it for diff needs
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12:53<frosch123>oh, found it, "block" is also valid for the English term :)
12:54<Phazorx>frosch123: wiki plz?
12:54<Phazorx>Rubidium: basicaly i want to be able to determine such things as "jon before split" in a given network structure
12:54<frosch123>I got those terms only from the graph theory summary page
12:54<Phazorx>having more than one path \ join ebfore split = bad design
12:55<Phazorx>frosch123: ahh, that i have open somewhere then, thanks
12:56<frosch123>there is also some google book if you search for block-articulation-tree
12:57<@Rubidium>Phazorx: such an algorithm will complain about ALL station exits because they do join before split (at the next station entrance)
12:58<Phazorx>Rubidium: "given network structure" will include only RR network nodes
12:58<Phazorx>such as these that coopers do
12:59<@Rubidium>and what are railroad network nodes?
12:59<Phazorx>netowk hubs
12:59<Phazorx>i should probably start with concept itself
12:59<Phazorx>but it is quite raw at this stage
13:00<@Rubidium>so from massive 4 ways 4 track hub to another 4 ways 4 track hub etc?
13:00<Phazorx>not exactly, a hub has inputs and outputs
13:00<Phazorx>4 ways 4 track hubs you mentioned in logic sense has 4 directions with 2 track wide lines both ways
13:01<fonsinchen>actually you want to find circles and parallel paths.
13:01<fonsinchen>You only need DFS for that.
13:01<Phazorx>so 2 track wide input and 2 track wide output in evey direction
13:02<@Rubidium>and assume that every input track can go to every output track?
13:02<Phazorx>that would be proper BBH
13:02<Phazorx>back bone hub
13:02<@Rubidium>then you first need to teach OpenTTD about the concepts of when something is a hub and when it isn't
13:03<@Rubidium>which won't be easy (if possible at all)
13:03<Phazorx>Rubidium: i'm trying to avoid that
13:03<@Rubidium>but it sounds like you need to do lots of research in the area of graph theory before you can actually solve this puzzle
13:03<Phazorx>by defining "gates" which can be seen as a something similar to a station
13:03<Phazorx>like mention hub would have 4 gates (each direction)
13:03<fonsinchen>OK, you also want to find out about connectedness. But that is also easy with a search algorithm.
13:03<Phazorx>each gate in this case would be 2 tracks in and 2 tracks out
13:04<@Rubidium>Phazorx: at OpenTTD level it only knows about single tile junctions; it doesn't know that two parallel tracks are meant to a single 'trunk line'
13:05<Phazorx>Rubidium: i know that but it can see each input individualy and if it is given information which outputs it should connect (by defning some gate properties) based on ability to path to these outputs it would be able to determine if the netwoprk element is working
13:06<Phazorx>i'm trying to abstract from network design to lego pieces that are necessary for determining some criterias that would let the engine determine how close given elements are to what they are intended to be
13:07<Phazorx>like gates i mentioned are essentialy very similar to stations, being able to path from stations platforms to some other platforms is a basic function that ottd does quite well
13:07<Phazorx>what i asked before - is a way to determine if there are no ugly design feats such as join before split
13:08<Phazorx>wich would be represented by more than one path from some input to some output
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13:08<Phazorx>what i gathered so far it is not directly possible to do at the moment
13:08<Phazorx>which is an answer to my question
13:08<frosch123>then edmonds and karp suits your needs :)
13:08<Phazorx>frosch123: some part of it - yes
13:09<frosch123>which part is missing?
13:09<fonsinchen>Edmonds-Karp doesn't find circles.
13:09<frosch123>fonsinchen: is he searching for them?
13:10<fonsinchen>Yes, he wants to find join before merge.
13:10<fonsinchen>Which is essentially a circle.
13:10<Phazorx>frosch123: there are some ugly fixtures that are used by coopers such as "priority windows" that would be seen as multiple ways even tho trains will not be able to enter them
13:11<Phazorx>fonsinchen: not exactly, but there can be these things that you name as circles as well
13:11<frosch123>so fonsinchen wants to search for the shortest circle
13:12<frosch123>there is also some default path algorithm that can find such
13:12<frosch123>not sure which of them :/
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13:13<CIA-6>OpenTTD: * rr16582 /:
13:14<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r16582 /trunk/src/lang/ (estonian.txt russian.txt):
13:14<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-06-16 17:10:36
13:14<CIA-6>OpenTTD: estonian - 3 fixed, 47 changed by lible (50)
13:14<CIA-6>OpenTTD: russian - 31 fixed, 225 changed by Lone Wolf (256)
13:16<frosch123>Floyd-Warshall might do
13:17<Phazorx>E-K i a more complex case since it deails with additional characteristics
13:18<Phazorx>aswell as F-W
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13:19<Phazorx>in case of determining if there is more than one path - there is no weight per say
13:19<Phazorx>basicaly i just need a graph tree with all cells = constant, and conunt branches
13:19<Phazorx>does not even need to count them if already found more than one
13:20<frosch123>if you give each edge capacity one, the maximum flow will tell you the number of disjointed paths
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13:21<frosch123>however, note that E-K does not deal with "short" paths in any way
13:21<Phazorx>dont really care about length
13:22<Phazorx>however it would be ncie to make it operate on same basis as pathfinder so it will not run into situation as deeming something differently passable from what trains pathing thinks
13:22<fonsinchen>Edmonds-Karp doesn't explicitly search for the number of paths either. It searches for their overall capacity. You could modify it, but I guess that DFS would be enough.
13:23<Phazorx>looking in BFS at
13:23<frosch123>fonsinchen: edmonds-karp is basically DFS
13:23<frosch123>and you can stop E-K when you reached a flow of two (which is after two DFS)
13:24*Phazorx trying to remember what algo he used when coding mineswapper clone 17 years ago
13:24<fonsinchen>Phazorx: DFS is better for finding circles.
13:25<fonsinchen>and for finding parallel paths.
13:26*frosch123 would not even know how to do that with bfs
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13:26<fonsinchen>me neither
13:28<Phazorx>i need to determine 2 things, 1) is there a path from source to destiantion 2) is there more than one path
13:28<Phazorx>bfs travers the tree in a very simple way and if it returns a tree - 1 is fulfilled
13:29<Phazorx>if it returns a tree with more than 1 "branch" that is positive answer for 2
13:29<Phazorx>i could be wrong tho :)
13:30<frosch123>yes, as that is not bfs, you never visit a node twice
13:32<fonsinchen>Phazorx: 1, can be done with BFS and DFS - it doesn't matter. 2, can be done with DFS and I woudn't know how to do it with BFS. A 3, find join before split (AKA circle) can also be done with DFS and I wouldn't know how to do it with BFS.
13:32<frosch123>and if you keep the duplicates you get a quite expensive n^2 algorithm
13:33<frosch123>(though the duplicates do not solve your problem either)
13:33<Phazorx>fonsinchen: isnt 2 and 3 are same?
13:34<fonsinchen>no, the paths are directed
13:35<fonsinchen>you may have two stretches of rail joining up at two places without a train being able to go in circles
13:35<Phazorx>err... you mean openttd engine limitations?
13:36<Phazorx>as in sharp turns or soemthing like that?
13:36<fonsinchen>No, nature of rails
13:37<fonsinchen>Track splits in two and joins up again 5 km later. No train can go in circles
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13:37<fonsinchen>This doesn't constitute a merge before split situation.
13:37<Phazorx>in context of single network structure it does
13:37<Phazorx>at least by my rules
13:38<fonsinchen>That's a strange definition. I meant that without any junctions in between, just like that:
13:38<fonsinchen> \_____________/
13:39<Phazorx>ahh... sorry i didnt see it as single track spliting and merging later with itself
13:39<Phazorx>my bad
13:39<Phazorx>that is perfectly valid and should not be raising any alarms
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13:40<fonsinchen>It does constitute a parallel paths situation and you might be interested in that in certain cases. But a circle is worse most times.
13:40<Phazorx>i guess my "simple" scenario fails on that
13:40<Phazorx>since it is seen as multiple paths but still valid in a network flow sense
13:41<fonsinchen>DFS on a directed graph can tell those situations apart.
13:41<Phazorx>i'm looking at c code there atm
13:42<Phazorx>or python as it turns out
13:42<fonsinchen>I had exactly the same problem with cargodist. You might want to have a look at mcf.cpp and the EliminateCycles methods.
13:44<Phazorx>shall do
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14:58<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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15:02<blueleader>Rubidium: Thanks for you advice...tycoon is funcion:)
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15:10<Xaroth>wait, Rubidium gives advise?
15:14<dihedral>i have the distinct feeling SX aint gonna reply no more :-(
15:14<dihedral>man - i was so waiting for that :-P
15:16<Yexo>who is SX?
15:17*Yexo finally got a (very simple) station newgrf working :)
15:18<Nite_Owl>Given time I am sure he will return in one form or another
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15:21<@Belugas>dihedral, Xavisu is never around during the week
15:21<@Belugas>like me, but i'm vanishing on weekends...
15:22<frosch123>is that healthy for you?
15:22<@Rubidium>what is healthy nowadays??
15:25-!-TinoM [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
15:26<Eoin>cider and beer
15:26<@Rubidium>hmm, throwing up is healthy?
15:27*frosch123 decides for coffee
15:27<dihedral>mr. kippling apple pies
15:27<Yexo>is there any way to disable a newgrf station for some rail types? ie only enable it for normal rail, but not for electric/monorail/maglev?
15:28<Markk>Rubidium: not for your teeth
15:28<@Rubidium>Yexo: no
15:29<@Rubidium>some NewGRF 'god' might suggest using the 'get current railtype' 'feature', but that doesn't exist in OpenTTD (it's desyncish)
15:30<Yexo>ok, thanks
15:30<DaleStan>Even if only enabled for CB 13?
15:31<dihedral>lol - "now with windws 7 home networking is even easier. you can quickly share those documents, picture, ...." spread viruses, grab a copy of what everybody has, .........
15:32<dihedral> <- @1.06 - the guy has a different laptop :-P
15:32<frosch123>you remind me about some old zip disk advertisment, which told me they could be used to store music, pictures, texts and even more...
15:33-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
15:34<dihedral>what a load of bollox
15:34*frosch123 things it is healthy to not watch that video, as ff was already annoying enough today
15:34<@Rubidium>DaleStan: there are ways to make it work for OpenTTD, only nobody has bothered implementing that
15:35<dihedral>frosch123: go watch it :-)
15:35<dihedral>it's kinda amusing
15:35<dihedral>they have an "i'm a pc" postit on the laptops :-D
15:35<@Rubidium>even then, you can't distinguish between monorail/maglev; for TTDP compatability they would need to be mapped to 2
15:36<@Rubidium>FS#2901 for anyone who's interested
15:36<@Rubidium>uhm.. FS#2091
15:36<frosch123>dihedral: apple is not any better than ms
15:37<frosch123>rephrase: the customers apply focuses on are not any better than those ms focuses on
15:38<dihedral>customers = users ?
15:38<dihedral>at least in most cases
15:40<dihedral>and even if they are developers....
15:40<dihedral>i have been let down by developers during the last few days - i really thought they had some more senses
15:40<dihedral>but NO
15:40<dihedral>they cannot cope with a change from cvs to svn
15:40<dihedral>my word
15:41<dihedral>a load of poor sods
15:42<frosch123>you are lucky that it was not sccs :)
15:44<frosch123>gnu cssc sounds interesting :o
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15:56<Chicago_Rail_Authority>How does one go about designating which sprites show in the orientation pictures in the station purchase window?
15:57<Yexo>specify them via action 0 prop 09
15:58<frosch123>action3 cargotype 0xFF
15:58<frosch123>(holds for both vehicles and stations)
16:01<frosch123>hmm, no foobar here
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16:06<_ln>night wo
16:09<Hirundo>frosch123: foobar is in the #openttdcoop.devzone channel, you need to speak to him?
16:10<frosch123>I'm just fixing his edits :p
16:14<dihedral>#openttdcoop.devzone? hehe - and i bet Ammler is there with a bunch of stuff he can say :-D
16:14*dihedral hides :-P
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16:36<Phazorx>dihedral: care to join that chan uself?
16:37<dihedral>no way ;-)
16:37<Phazorx>i got something to show
16:37<Phazorx>big and ugly
16:38<dihedral>well, then i am here
16:38<Phazorx>there isnt a point of passing A51 link here :)
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16:39<dihedral>ln i dont think anybody really cares that much
16:40<dihedral>only you get a buzz out of annoying others with that stuff, dont you think?
16:40<@Belugas>#i don't care anymore!
16:40<@Belugas>no more
16:40<@Belugas>no more
16:40<dihedral>Phazorx: and there is stuff like /msg ^^
16:41<Phazorx>you behave like a stubborn russian :)
16:41<_ln>dihedral: i don't think i'm the only one on this channel who has expressed caring about correct spelling.
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16:46<@Belugas>_ln, how come you've even missed that one ? "[16:41] <Phazorx> i got something to show" <--- I've got!
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16:48<_ln>Belugas: you guys pay me too little to get a 24/7 spell checking service.
16:49<@Belugas>come on... you have the same amount on your pay check as on ours...
16:50<@Rubidium>yeah, and all that goes to the government as tax!
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16:55<dihedral>ln: i do think youre at least one of the only ones to care enough to make a fuss
16:55<dihedral>oh - nobody else actually complains as badly as you do
16:55<dihedral>nobody else complaines
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16:56<dihedral>unless youre getting abbreviations such as ppl, thx, etc.
16:56<@Belugas>whos' complaines?
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17:05<@Belugas>tick tock time to go
17:05<@Belugas>night night
17:06<Nite_Owl>later Belugas
17:07<@Rubidium>night Belugas
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17:08<dihedral>same here
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17:57<dragonhorseboy>was just talking with someone about a price to pay later and it struck me that there was one thing sorely missing for any multiplayer users....
17:57<dragonhorseboy>where's a ottd currency conversion chart? :)
17:57<dragonhorseboy>I was playing in Yen and other player is using Pounds .. figured
17:58<Xaroth>isn't it pounds == 0.5, and yen == 1000 ?
17:58<Xaroth>whereas euro/dollar == 1
17:58<Xaroth>something like that
17:58<dragonhorseboy>xaroth..and what about the other currencies too? (especially Francs which is offically dead now)
17:59*Xaroth shrugs
17:59<Yexo>pound = 1
17:59<Xaroth>then euro = 2?
17:59<@Rubidium>for the rest, see currency.cpp ;)
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18:00<dragonhorseboy>ah thanks a lot
18:00<z-MaTRiX>yeah currency is an interesting thing
18:01<z-MaTRiX>can barely remember the original changes
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18:04<Nebri>hey guys, I just downloaded openttd, first time I've ever played transport tycoon so I'm loving it. however running at 1680x1050 and the interface is painfully small there (menu bars etc) is there anyway to enlarge it?
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18:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16583 /trunk/src/lang/ (22 files in 2 dirs):
18:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update: the order of the language files so it's in sync with english.txt.
18:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: Normally WT2 would do this, but only with activity for those languages. Now we'd
18:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: like to the order to match so we can more easily spot import bugs while
18:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: developing WT3.
18:04<@Rubidium>Nebri: not at the moment
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18:05<Nebri>alright, I'll just lower the resolution then to make them appear large for now :(
18:05<z-MaTRiX>good question, well doubling size is the easiest solution
18:06<Nebri>doubling size?
18:06<z-MaTRiX>(in the code)
18:07<z-MaTRiX>i was meaning "doubling icon sizes in menus"
18:07<Nebri>oh so isnt like an option currently implemented
18:07<Nebri>thats a shame :(
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18:09<@petern>spider walking up my wall
18:09<@Rubidium>z-MaTRiX: if it's the easiest solution, why haven't you coded it?
18:09<z-MaTRiX>killall spider?
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18:12<z-MaTRiX>actually i don't think its a big problem, everything gets smaller at higher resolutions
18:13<z-MaTRiX>Nebri<< how about the signals?
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18:23<Nebri>sorry about that
18:23<Nebri>stepped away from comp
18:24<Nebri>I've just downloaded the game and I'm playing around with it for the very first time. still lots to learn :)
18:24<Eddi|zuHause><z-MaTRiX> killall spider? <-- don't, spiders are friends
18:33<z-MaTRiX>[000904] petern eek
18:33<z-MaTRiX>[000912] petern spider walking up my wall
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18:33<z-MaTRiX>just wanted to say something
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18:38<Eddi|zuHause>i did read the backlog.
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>you don't have to repeat it.
18:40<Muddy>petern: this kind of spider?
18:41<@petern>actually we did have a load of baby spiders
18:41<@petern>where they belong
18:55<+glx>that's a monster not a spider
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19:01<z-MaTRiX>petern<< is it a deadly spider?
19:12-!-kkb110 [] has joined #openttd
19:12<kkb110>I thought openTTD isn't object oriented at all but
19:13<kkb110>I've just found that Tree_gui has a class :D
19:15<z-MaTRiX>hey kkb
19:15<z-MaTRiX>what's up?
19:15<kkb110>have you tried Ex's city server?
19:15<z-MaTRiX>not yet, too much work ;<
19:15<kkb110>I see...
19:16<kkb110>it's another interesting server
19:16<kkb110>the goal is to grow a city.. you should specify /claim 'town name' at the beginning
19:16<kkb110>and who gets 10000 first is the winner
19:16<chaos95>only 10000?
19:17<kkb110>yes 10000
19:17<z-MaTRiX>nice population
19:17<kkb110>but it's desert and all the cities are less than 200 at the beginning
19:17<z-MaTRiX>sounds interesting
19:18<kkb110>it's becoming very popular... I've seen 16 people were there
19:18<z-MaTRiX>yeah that's something new
19:19<z-MaTRiX>were you there when i built a maglev line from a city to HQ-s at mountain? ;>>
19:20<kkb110>I guess I wasn't there :D
19:20<z-MaTRiX>was making money, and 99-100% rating, mail and passengers
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20:03<chaos95>I tried simutrans last night
20:18<Eddi|zuHause2>which part of that is helping the discussion right now?
20:18-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
20:19<chaos95>there's a discussion right now?
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, there would be, if you were actually starting one.
20:22<chaos95>well I guess I was kind of hoping to, with that simutrans comment
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>well, a proper discussion needs actual substance to get started
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>"blech" isn't exactly a great deal of substance
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20:56<chaos95>I was merely expressing my distaste for the game in general, as it compares to openttd
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21:01<Zantor>anyone around?
21:02*welshdragon snores
21:02*Zantor pokes welshdragon
21:11<Zantor>it seems I have to get on in the morning to find this channel active
21:11<Zantor>get up, rather
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21:42<Eddi|zuHause>well... certainly 3AM is not the most active time...
21:43<Eddi|zuHause>mandatory phrase of any horror movie
21:43<Eddi|zuHause>"we should split up"
21:46<kkb110>here is still 9pm :D
21:54<helb>3:54 am, too much coffee :/
21:54<Eoin>im supposed to have school today
21:54<Eoin>i dont think i shall go :D
22:01<Eoin>anyone intresting in pissing off some iranian government stuff?
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---Logclosed Wed Jun 17 00:00:49 2009