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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-06-21

---Logopened Sun Jun 21 00:00:02 2009
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03:27<Wolfsherz>how do I activate the notification when someone enters my nickname?
03:27<Wolfsherz>i use mirc
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04:19<Alberth>good morning
04:19<HackaLittleBit>Alberth: you are the one I would like to talk to :)
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04:20<HackaLittleBit>ASCII_LETTERSTART can you not declare that one on line 19
04:22<Alberth>I just read about it, yes
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04:26<Wolfsherz>excuse me, can someone tell me how highlighting works with mirc?
04:28<@Rubidium>I think someone would, but that person should be someone who knows mIRC. Given the amount of different IRC clients it's far from certain that someone using mIRC is online right now in this channel
04:28<welshdragon>Wolfsherz: < like that
04:29<@Rubidium>on the other hand, it should be documented in mIRC's documentation
04:30<Alberth>and it probably is. None the less, your chances are probably better at some mirc-specific channel or website
04:34<Wolfsherz>welshdragon: that did not work. it seems to be disabled in my software. rubidium and alberth: thank you, i will have a look at the apropriate location for this.
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04:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r16612 /trunk/src/fontcache.cpp: -Fix (r16605): ASCII_LETTERSTART should be defined unconditionally (leeus)
04:40<Wolfsherz>someone minds typing my nickname?
04:41<Alberth>you can do that self as well
04:41<Wolfsherz>thank you
04:43<HackaLittleBit>Breakfast, see you all :)
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04:58<DeGhost>i was a bit lat
04:58<DeGhost>was gonna tell him how
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05:32<Sacro>grr, c# doesn't like 'state.Salt & 0x01 ? state.Key : 0'
05:32<@petern>((state.Salt & 0x01) == 0x01) ? state.Key : 0
05:33<@petern>or more accurately, != 0
05:34<Sacro>Yeah, that's what I have
05:35<Sacro>oh hm, my other lines are wrong :(
05:35<Sacro>stupid pointer crap
05:39*Sacro fiddles
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05:42<welshdragon>morning Sacro
05:43<Sacro>oh noes *hides*
05:43<Sacro>bring me nommage :D
05:45<Sacro>and lolman too
05:45<Sacro>bring some breakfast for us
05:45<welshdragon>i'm not up yet
05:46<Sacro>hm :(
05:46<Sacro>we are
05:46<welshdragon>48 hour day?
05:46<Sacro>no no
05:46<welshdragon>hmm :/
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05:47<welshdragon>i'm quite hungry myself, but have a few jobs to do
05:47<welshdragon>we need to stop spamming #openttd
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05:47<Sacro>oh yes
05:47<Sacro> :)
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06:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r16613 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_engine.cpp order_base.h order_cmd.cpp): -Fix [NewGRF]: some of the var action 2 80+ variables contained wrong results due to OpenTTD codechanges
06:13<@petern>people used them? :s
06:13<Yexo>probably not :p
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06:14<Yexo>I came across them reading lots of newgrf pages / openttd-code related to newgrfs
06:15<KUDr>yexo, could you fix one more?
06:15<Yexo>which one?
06:15<KUDr>i must find it
06:16<Yexo>if it's possible, sure
06:17<KUDr>quare of Euclidian distance from town */
06:17<KUDr> case
06:17<KUDr>case 0x8D: return min(DistanceSquare(industry->town->xy, tile), 32767);
06:17<KUDr>i have it on line 434
06:18<KUDr>65535 -> 32767
06:18<Yexo>what is the problem with 65535?
06:18<KUDr>it seems to overflow if industry distance from town is larger
06:18<KUDr>inside grf
06:19<KUDr>i dunno why
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06:19<KUDr>probably it uses signed short
06:19<@petern>grf bug?
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06:19<KUDr>i dunno who's bug it is but this fix helped
06:20<Yexo>openttd uses uint32
06:20<KUDr>openttd yes
06:20<Yexo>I'm not commiting a random fix just because it works for you, as long as I don't understand the problem
06:20<KUDr>but i dunno what it does inside grf code
06:20<KUDr>heh random fix?
06:20<Yexo>for me it is, since I don't know what the problem is
06:21<KUDr>i hope that somebody is able to tell why it does
06:22<KUDr>when distance from town is more than sqrt(32767) it behaves like when it is too close to the town
06:22<Yexo>can you show some of the nfo?
06:22<KUDr>for all industries that need to be build far from towns
06:23<KUDr>line farmas, fruit plantations etc (ECS)
06:23<KUDr>yes, when you tell me what is nfo
06:24<Yexo>the 'source-code' for the newgrf
06:24<KUDr>i am no ECS author
06:25<Yexo>then it's better to wait for frosch (or someone else with more newgrf knownledge)
06:25<Sacro> while (len--) {
06:25<Sacro> state->salt = ((state->salt >> 1)
06:25<Sacro> ^ (state->salt & 0x01 ? state->key : 0));
06:25<Sacro> *(buf++) ^= (state->salt & 0xff);
06:25<Sacro> }
06:25<KUDr>i just played with it and whentried to build some industries far from alltowns it told me that it is too slose to town
06:25<Sacro>seems to not want to work in c# :( even with copious amounts of fiddling
06:26<@petern>Sacro, read what i wrote
06:26<KUDr>Yexo: ok, i hoped you have it
06:26<@petern>KUDr, yeah, but we shouldn't "fix" it until it is determined whether it is an openttd bug or a grf bugt
06:27<Yexo>KUDr: actually no, I'm just learning some nfo myself
06:27<KUDr>ok, ok
06:27<KUDr>i wasn't here for 2 yrs and in the meantime lot of things happened here
06:28<Sacro>petern: i have the comparison
06:28<KUDr>including lot of newgrf
06:28<Sacro>but while (len--) and *(buf++) is abugger
06:28<@petern>it's not in the block you just pasted
06:28<@petern>(why are you fucking with pointers in C# anyway)
06:28<Sacro> while(len != 0)
06:28<Sacro> {
06:28<Sacro> state.Salt = ((state.Salt >> 1) ^ ((state.Salt & 0x01) != 0 ? state.Key : 0));
06:28<Sacro> buf[i++] ^= (byte)(state.Salt & 0xff);
06:28<Sacro> len--;
06:28<Sacro>I'm not, that's the C++ i'm going from
06:28<Sacro> }
06:29<Sacro>the next block is the C# bit
06:29<Sacro>but I'm not getting the right output :(
06:30<Alberth>don't try to write optimal code and get working code at the same time.
06:30<Sacro>Alberth: i'm not
06:30<Alberth>(and use a pastebin plz)
06:31<Sacro>this whole ++ and -- business confuses me :(
06:31<@petern>++ increment
06:31<@petern>-- decrement
06:31<@petern>not hard...
06:31<KUDr>Sacro: first move len-- whre it was
06:31<Alberth>yes, so don't use it until you have a working converted program
06:31<Yexo>then rewrite it to an if statement: if ((state.Salt & 0.01) != 0) { state.Salt = (state.Salt >> 1) ^ state.Key } else { state.Salt = state.Salt >> 1; }
06:31<KUDr>otherwise you swap operations -> must have different results
06:32<Sacro>but I must compare len-- to something
06:32<KUDr>to 0
06:33<KUDr>while(len-- != 0)
06:33<Sacro>but surely it'll compare it to 0, then decriment it
06:33<KUDr>aha, you don't use it
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06:35<@petern>sacro, that's why --len is not the same as len--
06:35<@petern>the decrement is always done before the comparison
06:35<Sacro>I didn't right that
06:36<Sacro>personally i'd not use a pre/post decrement in a loop
06:36<@petern>--len 'returns' the decrement
06:36<Sacro>now for the *(buf++) bit :\
06:36<@petern>len-- 'returns' the value before the decrement
06:36<Sacro>Yes, I get that
06:36<@petern>Sacro, that makes for() loops a bit stupid
06:36<Sacro>i = i +1 :)
06:37<Alberth>*buf = .... ; buf = buf + 1 ;
06:37<@petern>well if you want to go back to using basic...
06:37<Sacro>Alberth: I don't have pointers
06:38<Sacro>petern: hehe :)
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06:38<@petern>Sacro, yes, but if you're not understanding pre/post decrement, it helps to break it up in the original code first
06:39<Sacro>Yes, true
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06:42<Sacro>hmm, still not getting what I expected
06:43<Sacro> is what I have so far
06:44<Sacro>hmm is == 0 the same as false?
06:44<@petern>only if key is a bool
06:45<Alberth>initial state of the buf[] the same?
06:45<Sacro>well is if (! state->key) the same as (state.Key == 0)
06:45<Sacro>Alberth: yeah
06:45<Sacro>might have to fiddle with gdb a bit more
06:46<Alberth>in C++ both comparisons are the same. Don't know in C#
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06:54<Alberth>I would start debugging. Print the sequence of bytes being computed and stored in both cases, and check why the first difference happens.
06:55<Sacro>forgot that i need to use * in gdb ><
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06:55<Alberth>(maybe you can first make it even more simpler (no -- and ++, brackets around the condition of ? : ) ) Also, check post-conditions (is i correct afterwards?)
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07:06<KUDr>Sacro: Salt is uint32 in both cases?
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08:36<LadyHawk>could someone please explain what the difference is between those 2 signals that reserve paths? i don't quite understand the difference from the description
08:37<+glx>one can be passed through from the other side, one can't
08:37<LadyHawk>that's the part of it that i dont understand
08:37<LadyHawk>in my saved game i'm using the one that apparently cant be passed from the back side, but the trains leave at the back side through another one of those reserve track blocks
08:38<Sacro>one allows -> SIGNAL <-
08:38<Sacro>the other is just -> SIGNAL ->
08:39<LadyHawk>Sacro's explainign it better than the description on the signals lol
08:39<LadyHawk>so which one allows the -> SIGNAL <-
08:39<LadyHawk>the one with or without the sign attached to it?
08:39<+glx>the one without bar
08:40<planetmaker>I've got a makefile question: why does always produce "unknown"? And how could I get it to work?
08:40<LadyHawk>that's odd then
08:40<Sacro>LadyHawk: the one with the bar is -> -|signal ->
08:40<LadyHawk>when a path is blocked long enough the trains turn around and do reserve a path back through the station
08:40<Sacro>yeah, there is a setting for a train in rear of a PBS signal to 180
08:41<LadyHawk>trains are smart these days
08:41<LadyHawk>you mess up a crossing and instead of just going somewhere, they drop dead still until you move them so they wont collide
08:42<LadyHawk>something else i noticed with these signals...
08:42<LadyHawk>trains seem to have to 'get used' to them?
08:42<LadyHawk>first few times they get past a new setup they're 'too careful'
08:42<LadyHawk>as in stopping while there's a free path
08:42<Sacro>not noticed that
08:42<LadyHawk>after the first few times they take more daring routes through it
08:43<@petern>you can believe that if you like, but it's not true :)
08:43<LadyHawk>lol ok =P
08:43<@Rubidium>that might have to do with pathfinding that happens far far far before the junction you have just changed
08:43<Alberth>planetmaker: what's OSTYPE ?
08:44<Alberth>finding a path from A to B over tracks
08:44<LadyHawk>yeah i've noticed trains seem to decide which path to take depending on whether or not there's a train about hmm... 5-10 tiles in front of them
08:44<LadyHawk>it's interesting
08:44<planetmaker>Alberth: one of the strings which are adjacent to the variable.
08:44<LadyHawk>A+ on the coding job on those signals
08:44<planetmaker>on my SuSE machine it's "linux"
08:44<LadyHawk>glad they're back =)
08:45<planetmaker>on my Mac it's "darwin8.0" and on my windows VM it's "msys" within the mingw environment.
08:45<planetmaker>It's a system variable
08:47<planetmaker>just check in your shell with echo $$OSTYPE and you should know... in principle
08:47<planetmaker>I think it is not defined on a plain windows, though
08:47<@petern>echo $$OSTYPE
08:47<+glx>why $$ ?
08:47<@Rubidium>6693OSTYPE <- got a lesser OS :(
08:48<Alberth>planetmaker: echo $OSTYPE gives me "linux-gnu"
08:48<+glx>sh-3.1$ echo $$OSTYPE
08:48<+glx>sh-3.1$ echo $OSTYPE
08:48<planetmaker>glx: yes, on the shell. In my makefile it works only with two:
08:48<+glx>planetmaker: you failed with $$
08:49<planetmaker>echo $OSTYPE
08:49<@petern>obviously it doesn't work...
08:49<planetmaker>or echo $(OSTYPE) within makefile doesn't produce anything while echo $$OSTYPE produces that string
08:49<planetmaker>But the comparison fails for me
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08:50<planetmaker> @echo "Host type $$OSTYPE"
08:50<planetmaker>works for me
08:50<planetmaker>but not a comparison :(
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08:51<+glx>try ifeq("$$OSTYPE","msys")
08:51<Alberth>$$OSTYPE works with 'echo' because the echo cmd gets parsed by the shell again.
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08:56<planetmaker>glx: I tried that. It has the same result (and the manual gives that syntax as alternative to what I posted)
08:56<+glx>and with only one $ ?
08:57<planetmaker>same result.
08:57<planetmaker>Intuitively I used one $ - and then wondered why it doesn't work.
08:58<planetmaker>I usually have to use vars within a makefile like $(VARNAME)
08:59<planetmaker>hm... actually the problem might be a bit different:
08:59<Alberth>the reason is that OSTYPE is not an environment variable, but a magic variable BASH var
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08:59<planetmaker>a makefile with just this:
09:00<planetmaker>host = $OSTYPE
09:00<planetmaker>test :
09:00<planetmaker> @echo "Host: $(HOST)"
09:00<planetmaker>produces a line with an empty $(HOST) var...
09:00<@Rubidium>OSTYPE isn't an environment variable
09:01<@Rubidium>as such Make doesn't know it
09:01<planetmaker>hm... :S Ok, seems like I have to do it differently then.
09:01<@Rubidium>and $OSTYPE is a bashism
09:01<@petern>OSTYPE=$((echo $OSTYPE))
09:01<@Rubidium>i.e. it doesn't work in all shell compatible shells
09:01<@Rubidium>like dash
09:02<@petern>uname -s
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09:03<Sacro>bourne compatible
09:04<planetmaker>petern: thx, I'll have a look whether I get to work it that way. Looks good at first sight
09:06<planetmaker>andythenorth: the meadows are very small, if only half a tile...
09:06<planetmaker>especially for cows that seems like caged ;)
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09:08<andythenorth>planetmaker: hmm maybe you're right
09:08<andythenorth>I could make them bigger easily
09:08<andythenorth>But really they are holding pens for milking ;)
09:08<Xaroth>LadyHawk: quite.. inefficient layout o_O
09:08<planetmaker>he, thanks, Alberth :)
09:08<andythenorth>planetmaker: Actually, if we could plant arbitrary animated ground tiles around industries, we could do more with these farms
09:09<planetmaker>hehe @ andythenorth
09:09<LadyHawk>Xaroth if you have any advice feel free to point it out
09:09<planetmaker>I guess till that happens a few months will fly by :)
09:09<LadyHawk>the reason i had to make a mess like that is because the trains weren't leaving the station quick enough
09:09<Sacro>LadyHawk: ctrl+s for a screenshot in openttd
09:10<Sacro>or erm, ctrl+prtscrn I belive for the selected window
09:10<Xaroth>LadyHawk: 2x45 degree turns
09:10<LadyHawk>maglev = unaffected by corners
09:10*Rubidium misses the gold old days that prntscrn actually printed the screens
09:11<LadyHawk>never had 90 degree turns on the other railways
09:11<LadyHawk>but maglev doesn't slow down through them so why not
09:14<LadyHawk>each exit has 2 exit tracks, i limited their movement on the signal block so they dont go blocking off everyone elses paths
09:15<+glx><Sacro> or erm, ctrl+prtscrn I belive for the selected window <-- alt-prntscreen
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09:15<Sacro>heh, close
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09:17<LadyHawk>alt+printscreen works =)
09:18<LadyHawk>oh, how does the improved loading algorithm work btw?
09:18<LadyHawk>i've had to turn it off because it wasn't loading the trains quick enough
09:18<@Rubidium>it FIFO loads
09:18<LadyHawk>up to howmany trains does it calculate if there's enough load on the station?
09:19<Sacro>LadyHawk: openttd does have an inbuilt screenshot function though :)
09:19<LadyHawk>i know train 1 loads, if train 1 can get full, train 2 loads too
09:19<LadyHawk>but it still isn't as 'aggressive' as all trains loading at same time
09:20<LadyHawk>if i average less than 4 trains loading, the stuff on the stations only increase
09:20<LadyHawk>improved loading algorithm cant keep up with it
09:20<+glx>there's not enough people in the station for that :)
09:20<LadyHawk>hire some more staff =P
09:21<@Rubidium>well, FIFO loading can never be faster than just loading whatever you get in whatever vehicle you can put it in
09:21<LadyHawk>i wouldn't mind paying a fee for extra loading capacity
09:21<Svish>thats a lot of farms in one spot... O.o
09:21<@Rubidium>it only guarantees that the first train gets loaded first
09:21<LadyHawk>yeh, started with a couple, funded the rest
09:21<Svish>how can you fund a farm? im only allowed to fund industries....
09:21<LadyHawk>there's a setting in the options
09:21<LadyHawk>fund raw materials same as others or something similar
09:22<LadyHawk>together with build same type close to eachother enabled, and multiple allowed per town enabled
09:22<LadyHawk>gives you the freedom to fund whatever you want wherever you want
09:22<Svish>does it work to change that in-game?
09:22<LadyHawk>not sure
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09:23<Svish>why does station spread slow down the game?
09:24<LadyHawk>no idea
09:24<LadyHawk>i have station spread set to 20
09:24<Svish>hm... where is that setting? can't find it...
09:24<+glx>it used to slow down more than it does now
09:24<LadyHawk>which one Svish?
09:24<@petern>we should move the warning
09:24<@petern>from station spread to map size
09:25<Svish>the one to allow you to fund things like forests and coal mines
09:25<@petern>zomg my pc run slowly at 2048x2048
09:25<Yexo>Svish: somewhere under economy
09:25<LadyHawk>advanced settings -> economy -> industries
09:25<Svish>Manual primary industry construction method?
09:25<LadyHawk>set it to 'as other industries'
09:26<LadyHawk>that'll let you make them
09:26<Svish>what does prospecting mean?
09:26<+glx>random industry location, and it may fail
09:26<Svish>should be some help when right clicking those options...
09:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r16614 /trunk/src/ (54 files in 5 dirs):
09:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Make the airport min/max available year a property of the Airport class.
09:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change: rename station.always_small_airport to station.never_expire_airports to make it more future-proof
09:30<LadyHawk>what are those wagon speed limits?
09:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r16615 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix (r16613): 0x10 != 2
09:30<LadyHawk>i always turned it off because i'm not quite sure what to expect
09:30<Yexo>newgrfs can set a speed limit for wagons
09:31<Yexo>without any newgrfs, tha setting does nothing
09:31<LadyHawk>and i see no speed limits listed in the depots
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09:32<Xaroth>[Svish]: why does station spread slow down the game? << because the game has to calculate the coverage area when deciding where to drop stuff?
09:34<Svish>btw, does it matter how much of for example a forest you cover?
09:34<Svish>do you get half as much if you only cover half the forest?
09:34<Mark>no it does not matter
09:34<Mark>a single tile is enough
09:36<LadyHawk>when you fund industries n stuff, you can 'force' them into a specific shape to make a nice block, if you stick a piece of railway down
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09:36<LadyHawk>with all them farms i forced them into a 3x3 grid, the smallest farm shape
09:38<Svish>is there a way I can see all my stations and how much stuff is in them?
09:38<LadyHawk>button to the right of the 'subsidies'
09:38<Yexo>try the station list
09:38<Svish>but it doesnt say how much is in them
09:38<LadyHawk>it sorta does
09:39<LadyHawk>the bigger the block is next to the station name, the more stuff is on the station
09:39<LadyHawk>the small bar below it is the rating i believe
09:39<Svish>or, ah, is that what the width of those color thingies is perhaps
09:39<Svish>*lightbulb moment*
09:41<LadyHawk>if the bigger bar is as big as the little bar under it, there's i dunno... 300+ on the station (i'm guessing =P)
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09:41<Svish>the green and red line?
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09:43<LadyHawk>oh typo
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09:45<LadyHawk>that make more sense now?
09:49<Svish>think so :)
09:49<Svish>why isnt a shared order list default when cloning a vehicle?
09:49<LadyHawk>anything i clone has the same orders as whatever train i cloned
09:50<Svish>yeah, but the order list isnt shared
09:50<Yexo>LadyHawk: same orders != shared orders
09:50<Svish>so I have to do that myself
09:50<Yexo>Svish: just ctrl+click
09:50<LadyHawk>oh sorry
09:50<Svish>and when I clone I usually want the train to work _exactly_ the same
09:50<LadyHawk>what's shared orders then?
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09:50<Alberth>Svish: original behavior was not shared + it gives weird results for newbies
09:50<Svish>it is a shared order list so that when you change stuff on one, the changes go for all the others too
09:50<Yexo>LadyHawk: with shared orders when you change the orders of train 1, the orders of train 2 change at the same time
09:51<Svish>Alberth: aha, but can I change that?
09:51<Alberth>Svish: in the source code
09:51<Yexo>Svish: if you ctrl+click on the clone button, you clone with shared orders
09:51<Svish>thanks :D
09:51*LadyHawk must remember that
09:52<LadyHawk>that means that if train 1 is the original
09:52<LadyHawk>train 2 3 4 and 5 are cloned
09:52<LadyHawk>if you change the orders of train 4
09:52<LadyHawk>all 5 trains change orders?
09:52<Svish>if they have shared orderlists
09:52<Yexo>LadyHawk: that only works with shared orders
09:52<LadyHawk>or does it only work with the original
09:52<Yexo>and you don't have to clone the trains to get shared orders
09:53<LadyHawk>making them goto another train does it too?
09:53<Yexo>just remove all orders, click goto and click on the vehicle you want to shared the orders of
09:53<Svish>you can make shared order lists if you take one train hit the GoTo button and then ctrl+click on another train
09:53<Yexo>sorry, ctrl+click indeed
09:53<Svish>just clicking works too, but then the orders are not shared
09:53<LadyHawk>maybe that'd be a nice option to add in the advanced settings
09:53<LadyHawk>'enable to auto-share orders'
09:54<Svish>well, if it happens when you hold ctrl when cloning it doesnt matter with a setting :)
09:54<Svish>just tested, and it works :D
09:54<LadyHawk>problem is, you need to know about ctrl+click because it isn't listed anywhere =)
09:55<+glx>ctrl is the magic key :)
09:55<Yexo> this page lists some of the ctrl uses
09:55<+glx>works with many things
09:55<LadyHawk>oh, and something else i was wondering about...
09:55<Svish>thats true
09:56<LadyHawk>is it possible to remove 1 train station track from a station, without demolishing the entire thing in the process?
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09:56<+glx>buldozer instead dynamite
09:56<Yexo>press station build, then buldozer, then remove 1 (or more) tiles from the station
09:56<LadyHawk>i don't see a buldozer in station build menu?
09:57<LadyHawk>or is that a nightly thing?
09:57<Yexo>it' sin the toolbar
09:57<+glx>it's on rail toolbar
09:57<Yexo>no, it's been there since at least 0.5.3 (probably long before)
09:57<+glx>or press 'R'
09:57<LadyHawk>ohh found it
09:57<LadyHawk>build station but remove it
09:57<LadyHawk>didn't realise that was possible
09:58<LadyHawk>i knew i could do it with track but not with stations
09:58<LadyHawk>thanks a ton lol
09:58<Alberth>we have lots of hidden features for you to discover :)
09:58<LadyHawk>any more hidden features i should know about? lol
09:59<Svish>does trains slow down if you set a higher travel time in the timetable than they need?
09:59<Yexo>no, they will wait at the station
10:00<Svish>lol, I think I would get annoyed if I had to sit in a train for 12 days while people got on before it left
10:01<LadyHawk>and i have a question about the unload orders too..
10:01<LadyHawk>what's the default unload option?
10:01<LadyHawk>unload and see if there's something to grab?
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10:02<Svish>no, unload all and move on
10:02<Svish>as far as I know
10:02<Yexo>unload if accepted and try to load
10:02<Svish>oh, default without changing anything
10:02<Yexo>that's without changing anything
10:02<LadyHawk>then how do you tell them to only unload?
10:02<LadyHawk>because there's no option for that in the unload options
10:02<Svish>the unload button
10:02<Yexo>select "no loading" from the load dropdown
10:02<LadyHawk>there is...
10:03<LadyHawk>unload if accepted (default i assume)
10:03<LadyHawk>unload all (also unloads if not accepted, which shouldn't be done)
10:03<Svish>oh, cool thing I discovered yesterday: you can goto a train depot. and then select service. then the train will only go to the train depo when it needs service :)
10:03<+glx>load and unload options are separated
10:03<LadyHawk>transfer (unload to station only so others can load)
10:03<LadyHawk>and 'no unloading' (which is weird?)
10:03<LadyHawk>so which option unloads when accepted, and no loading?
10:04<+glx>no loading is a load option
10:04<+glx>(other dropdown)
10:04<LadyHawk>oh duh
10:04<LadyHawk>didn't think of looking at that
10:04<LadyHawk>i wish my trains had shared orders now
10:05<+glx>it's quite intuitive theorically :)
10:05<Svish>just got it myself
10:05<Svish>and it is kind of intuitive when you know about it :p
10:05*Svish thinks those new path signals are kind of cool...
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10:05*LadyHawk agrees
10:06<LadyHawk>entrance/combo/exit worked good, but it doesn't allow more than 1 train in a block
10:06<LadyHawk>and using those in conjunction with those new signals will make trains have to stop in the middle of the block if all entrances are red
10:06<LadyHawk>instead of waiting in front of the block for a free path
10:07<LadyHawk>so they're sorta obsolete now
10:07<+glx>mixing block and path is usually a bad idea :)
10:07<Alberth>LadyHawk: an approach for making orders shared: pick a station where all trains visit, open the station vehicles list, open a vehicle window for each vehicle in the list, pick an 'original vehicle', and start ctl-clicking orders of all other vehicles
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10:08<Svish>noo!! plane crash!
10:08<LadyHawk>planes suck for crashes
10:09<SirSquidness>why do planes crash, even when disasters are off?
10:09<Svish>yeah... when trains crashes it is usually my fault at least...
10:09<LadyHawk>international airports make it possible for aircraft to take away LOADS of goods now, but the plane crashing is the major issue in that setup
10:09<LadyHawk>keeps dropping the ratio to 0
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10:10<LadyHawk>another little something that would a very nice thing to add is planes build specifically to carry only cargo
10:10<LadyHawk>(only goods and valuables are refittable in planes now)
10:10<Yexo>that can be done via newgrfs
10:10<LadyHawk>irl you have those massive cargo planes, but in the standard game they're missing
10:11<+glx>try av8
10:14<LadyHawk>does av8 change any existing aircraft?
10:14<LadyHawk>i see the av8 that has extra content but it seems to need av8 itself to work
10:15<LadyHawk>cuz that's the thing i dont like about newgrf
10:15<LadyHawk>they change originals
10:17<Ammler>LadyHawk: isn't that the whole idea about newgrfs?
10:17<LadyHawk>well maybe, but i dont want changes, i want additions =P
10:17<Ammler>but there is also a newgrf, which would bring the originals back.
10:17<@petern>av8 needs av8 to worK? that makes little sense...
10:18<LadyHawk>there's 3 av8 ones, 2 old versions
10:18<LadyHawk>and then there's av8 extra aircraft
10:18<planetmaker>LadyHawk: as the name says: "extra"
10:18<planetmaker>it's an add-on to av8
10:19<planetmaker>and can only be used in conjunction with the av8 newgrf
10:19<LadyHawk>maybe i didn't explain it very well, but that's what i was trying to say lol
10:20<planetmaker>well. Any add-on requires the thing it bases on. That's not unusual, is it?
10:21<LadyHawk>but like i said, if av8 changes originals, i don't want it.. but i still want extra content =P
10:24<planetmaker>LadyHawk: then make a newgrf
10:25<Ammler>[16:17] <Ammler> but there is also a newgrf, which would bring the originals back.
10:25<Svish>i would like an "extend" and "shorten" button in the train depot... which just... added/removed 1 car of whatever type there was the most of
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10:25<planetmaker>so it's even easier. Just too lazy to search. But able to bitch around
10:26<LadyHawk>anyone with experience with the ECS newgrfs?
10:27<planetmaker>no they're just there and no one uses them.
10:27<Ammler>according to the downloads, everyone.
10:28<LadyHawk>grabbing them and av8
10:28<LadyHawk>gonna see what a new game looks like
10:28<LadyHawk>thumbs up to the 'check online content' in the main menu too btw
10:28<LadyHawk>wasn't there last time i played
10:30<Svish>will weird things happen if I try to play a saved game in a different version of the game?
10:30<Alberth>in a newer version, you should b ok
10:31<Ammler>in a lower version, it will harm you ;-)
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10:32<Svish>what is Streetcar construction? it is grayed out here...
10:32<Svish>Ammler: ok, nice to know, hehe
10:33<@petern>(don't use american english unless you're american, i guess)
10:37*Alberth was thinking about go-kart like cars with 'streetcars'
10:37<LadyHawk>these ECS newgrfs confuse me
10:37<LadyHawk>do i need some different cargo newgrf for them or something?
10:37<LadyHawk>wood turns into wood-products, wood products turn into paper, paper turns into goods
10:38<LadyHawk>but what do i transport wood products in
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10:39<LadyHawk>or are these supposed to be used in arctic only?
10:45<@petern>you need an ecs supporting newgrf vehicle set to be able to transport the new cargo types
10:45<LadyHawk>i can't find one
10:46<+glx>there are many
10:47<LadyHawk>could you point me in the right direction please?
10:47<LadyHawk>i've dug through the online content thing 4 times, no description mentiones ECS
10:49<LadyHawk>eGRVTS... i think i saw that
10:49<LadyHawk>i think descriptions should give info on these kinda things, would make it a lot easier
10:49*LadyHawk tries
10:51<+glx>ukrs supports them IIRC, lv4 too
10:52<Ammler>would be easier to mention the sets, which don't
10:52<LadyHawk>eGRVTS has trucks that allow for the ECS industry transport
10:52<+glx>dbsetxl without add on doesn't ;)
10:52<LadyHawk>but still no trainns
10:53<LadyHawk>the trams it added also can't transport it
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10:56<LadyHawk>it also only seems to use 1 or 2 of the ECS newgrfs instead of all of them
10:56<LadyHawk>temperate only has wood now
10:57<LadyHawk>for all 4 climates
10:58<Svish>when do I get to make trams?
10:58<LadyHawk>in this ECS thing the trams are listed in same menu as road vehicle construction..
10:59<LadyHawk>trams aren't in the game without any newgrfs
10:59<LadyHawk>(i think)
10:59<LadyHawk>oh they are
10:59<LadyHawk>greyed out in my game
10:59<LadyHawk>and it's 2153
11:00<LadyHawk>that's odd
11:01<LadyHawk>fastforwarding through a new game to check..
11:03<Chris_Booth>when will real metro rail building options be added to OTTD?
11:03<Chris_Booth>if ever?
11:03<LadyHawk>very weird
11:03<LadyHawk>the tram construction thing is greyed out
11:03<LadyHawk>just went through 1950-1983 and it just stays greyed out
11:05<@petern>trams aren't in the game without any newgrfs
11:05<@petern>therefore it stays greyed out
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11:10<Svish>can trams be added while you play? or do you have to add them and then start a new game to get them?
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11:13<Svish>hm... I miss a way to upgrade airports...
11:14<Svish>so that I could say: upgrade this airport to an international one. and then they would do that slowly one step at a time while planes were not there, or something...
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11:15<dragonhorseboy>any of you in here play with ECS vectors?
11:17<LadyHawk>i couldn't get ECS setup properly to even try
11:18<dragonhorseboy> know if these vehicles requirement etc are optional? because I'm not sure I can fathom how you can make vehicles without coal etc
11:18<@petern>no, i don't play it
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11:19<KUDr>dragonhorseboy: optional, but they give more with vehicles
11:20<KUDr>as far as i can tell
11:20<dragonhorseboy>kudr..thanks..I was wondering about these raw industry's inputs for a second
11:21<dragonhorseboy> know what...
11:22<dragonhorseboy>now that I look at it it seem some of ECS vector seem a bit alike to railroad tycoon 2
11:22<dragonhorseboy>eg the farm can output grain on its own (alak cereals in ECS) but you optionally can send in fertilizer
11:22<KUDr>yes, but theyhave buffers
11:23<KUDr>and have parameters to configure them
11:23<dragonhorseboy>hmm clever....lets see what the vehicle factory needs...
11:23<KUDr>i.e. infinite buffers/always accept cargo
11:24<dragonhorseboy>yeah I'm probably going set it that way... I find stockpiles just a bit too difficult (and lets NOT talk about trying to even balance iron ore verus coal in pikka's grf .. no offense meant but I kinda hated that a lot)
11:24<KUDr>same here
11:25<dragonhorseboy>you should see jonty's public IS2-beta3 map .. I have to feed like six or seven powerplants all just from only two bloody coal mines .. I'll prefer just two or even one powerplant alone :S
11:25<dragonhorseboy>hmmm glass and dyes...where to get that from now...
11:26<LadyHawk>you make me want to get ECS to work
11:26<dragonhorseboy> down .. where's sand and dyes...
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11:26<dragonhorseboy>ladyhawk..heh if its the problem - you have to place the ecs grfs in specific order that basic&town vectors are right on the bottom to start with
11:27<dragonhorseboy>ok..where's the dyes coming from now hm
11:27<dragonhorseboy>*clicks random lines*
11:29<dragonhorseboy> chemicals..should had thought of that
11:30<dragonhorseboy>kudr I swear ECS can seem a tad daunting with so many vectors at once heh
11:30<KUDr>yes, i use just 5
11:30<KUDr>and no more together
11:31<dragonhorseboy>trying place several of them on a random 512*256 map with three towns just to see how things flows what to where for now in scenario editor
11:31<KUDr>but you can make different combinations and cargo acceptance will differ little bit
11:31<dragonhorseboy>I might just skip the entire vehicle vector after looking at how many plants are needed just for that 0_o
11:32<KUDr>for beginning use direct industry funding in game
11:32<KUDr>so you can set it as you need
11:32<LadyHawk>town vector
11:32<LadyHawk>when i add that everything else disappears
11:32<LadyHawk>i had the same with the wood one, but when that was at the bottom it suddenly worked
11:32<KUDr>must be first
11:33<dragonhorseboy>coal (two times), sand, steel, glass, dyes, refined products, oil = finally some vehicles .. then to transport the vehicles as well
11:33<dragonhorseboy>seem too big for me :P
11:34<dragonhorseboy>at least fish is one easy one... from fishing boat to cannery to tourist .. just my kind of thing :D
11:34<KUDr>LadyHawk: basic, town, and then others
11:37<LadyHawk>i think i've got most of it now, something's still missing i think tho
11:37<Svish>woah, 99% transported. first time I've ever seen that...
11:37<LadyHawk>Svish it's hard to get an outstanding ratio on your station
11:38<LadyHawk>another problem i'm having with ECS is there's no vehicles to transport all this
11:38<dragonhorseboy>ladyhawk..not all trainsets seem to acknowledge it...
11:38<LadyHawk>i have eGRVTS
11:38<KUDr>this wotks here
11:39<dragonhorseboy>you have dbsetxl, certain (or did pikka finished it finally?) limited support with ukrs and plausible NARS, canset for sure (I recall sand/etc which is ECS for sure), russiaplanes (no clue on planeset&av8, find for yourself)
11:41<dragonhorseboy>kudr do you use the wood vector as well?
11:41<LadyHawk>oh thanks a lot
11:41<KUDr>it is active but not yet use it
11:42<dragonhorseboy>kudr ah hm well...
11:43<dragonhorseboy>I presume the middle industries with multiply requirements doesn't need all of it to produce the one output required but it might have lower and/or slower production in that case anyway right?
11:43<dragonhorseboy>I'm looking at Printing Works now .. it needs both paper and dyes altogether but I wonder about if no dyes was delievered yet
11:43<KUDr>yes, they seem to have some hidden algorithm for that
11:45<dragonhorseboy>ok think I figured out a setup I like :)
11:48<dragonhorseboy>disabled chemical&machinery .. looks better as well
11:48<dragonhorseboy>and that figured .. now the paper mill doesn't need any dyes
11:49<dragonhorseboy>I kinda hate the very strict tourist building placements but oh well :p
11:49<dragonhorseboy>took me a while to figure out the fancy castle one
11:51<dragonhorseboy>btw not to sound dumb but..
11:51<dragonhorseboy>did ottd still require a seperate grf to get temperate snowy mountains?
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11:58<HackaLittleBit>just a small question, would it be possible to have a decimal isntead of hexidecimal reading of tile index in landscape info?(misc_gui.cpp line177)
12:00<frosch123>the decimal value is even less informative than the hexadecimal
12:00<Alberth>unlikely, but how is that better? In this way, you can see the value of bits
12:01<dragonhorseboy>anyway one question about hosting ottd...
12:02<dragonhorseboy>could you start openttd then type in 'spectate' in the command line then 'reset_company 1' to delete the now-no-players company that was previously yours?
12:03<Yexo>I don't see why not
12:03<Yexo>a small test confirmed that it worked
12:03<dragonhorseboy>thanks..i always wondered about the limitation of windows having no command line version of ottd so heh yeah
12:04<dragonhorseboy>going try host a small map with two other players tomorrow ^-^
12:04<LadyHawk>am i supposed to be able to transport vehicles with trucks?
12:04<LadyHawk>i have no trucks
12:04<dragonhorseboy>ladyhawk... car carrier trucks do exist yes? :)
12:04<dragonhorseboy>same for the car carrier boat in newshipsw :p
12:04<dragonhorseboy>anyway I need to brb for lunch :S
12:05<LadyHawk>hahaha i like this warning
12:05<LadyHawk>changing newgrf settings during a game can crash ottd!
12:06<Yexo>LadyHawk: just don't come bugging us if it does really crash
12:09<Svish>is there a way to "clone" a train depot?
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12:09<Svish>so that I can have it on the orders list, but it chooses the one that is easiest to get to kind of...
12:13<Yexo>you can give a "service in nearest depot" order to your vehicles
12:13<LadyHawk>if it does end up crashing i'll just laugh =)
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12:18<Svish>Yexo: really? how do I do that?
12:18<Yexo>from the dropdown that contains "go to"
12:19<Svish>didnt see that one!
12:19<Svish>what does Conditional order jump mean??
12:21<dragonhorseboy>btw yexo thanks .. I finally got around to closing some things to run ottd again (stupid memory..blah :S ) .. and now am looking at a random small map with me myself just spectating and no companies present :)
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12:21<dragonhorseboy>I'm just wondering tho...
12:22<dragonhorseboy>when I did the 'companies' listing in command .. I wonder what the four numbers in brackets after value is for (T:0 R:0 P:0 S:0)
12:23<Yexo>nr. of trains, road vehicles, planes and ships
12:25<dragonhorseboy>oh..heh i see now
12:26<dragonhorseboy>btw how does the 'move' command actually work now? i created company 1 then spectated then created company 2 .. whether I'm in company 2 or spectate 'move dragonhorseboy 1' does not seem to work
12:26<dragonhorseboy>just wondering
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12:32<HackaLittleBit>Frosch123: Ok was just trying to make my life easier(still have some problems reading hex numbers :-) ) Thanks Frosch123, Alberth
12:32<dragonhorseboy>well have to go..will check again at night anyway
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12:35<HackaLittleBit>have to now byby
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12:45<LadyHawk>interesting ECS
12:45<LadyHawk>i've got something running at 100% capacity, getting everything it needs and news just popped up
12:45<LadyHawk>requesting good service or shut down in 24 months?
12:47<LadyHawk>oh, the food factory i had just gone as well
12:47<LadyHawk>full capacity is apparently not good enough o_O
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12:56<Svish>is there a way I can nuke a city?
12:56<LadyHawk>get rid of as much junk as you can
12:56<LadyHawk>then you'll have to wait or bribe them so they like you again
12:56<KingJ>Magic bulldozer if you're feeling lazy on the other hand
12:57<Svish>magic bulldozer?
12:57<KingJ>It's a cheat, lets you bulldoze anything without penalty
12:57<Svish>how do you do that?
12:57<Svish>i need to know...
12:57<Svish>this one city is bugging me like crazy :p
12:58<Eddi|zuHause><LadyHawk> i've got something running at 100% capacity, getting everything it needs and news just popped up <- you have to take away the end products, too
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>with at least 70% station rating
12:58<Svish>so um... how do you do it? the wiki only says what it does
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>ECS has insane requirements
12:58<Svish>how do i turn it on or use it or activate it or?
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>Svish: read the page properly
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13:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r16616 /trunk/src/lang/french.txt:
13:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 41 changes by glx
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13:44<Eddi|zuHause>so, how's that project going along?
13:45<planetmaker>damn. And I still corrected the string in wt2 ;)
13:45<frosch123>I have as little clue as you
13:45<frosch123>maybe rb just pressed the wrong button :p
13:46<@Rubidium>I didn't press a button
13:46<frosch123>so tb did
13:46<@Rubidium>the french translators are testing it
13:47<@Rubidium>and testing commit/handling its own commits is part of that
13:47<+glx>btw I like WT3 :)
13:48<LadyHawk>the only thing trains need to learn on those signal blocks is to make room for another train whenever possible =P
13:49<LadyHawk>like.... train to arrive first has 2 free choices, choice 1 would block the only free option for another train about to arrive, but it picks choice 1 anyway
13:49<LadyHawk>but i'm not sure that's even possible to code
13:49<@Rubidium>feel free to code it ;)
13:50<LadyHawk>i can't lol
13:51<@Rubidium>(some) people have the ability to learn it
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13:51<@Rubidium>I couldn't code either (quite a while ago)
13:54<Spucoly> im running open ttd ver 0.7.1 rc3. How do you fix the version mismatch on multy player
13:54<Xaroth>Spucoly: search for AutoTTD on the forums
13:55<+glx>Spucoly: update
13:55<+glx>latest is 0.7.1
13:55<Xaroth>[+glx]: latest is 0.7.1 << not all servers run 0.7.1
13:56<+glx>and you fix the mismatch by using the same version as the server
13:56<Spucoly>what version is a common one
13:57<Xaroth>Spucoly: AutoTTD can update your client to the server you want to connect to
13:57<frosch123>test question: Spucoly: what to you consider newer? "0.7.1" or "0.7.1 rc 3" ?
13:57<Xaroth>as i said, search for it on the forums
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13:59<LadyHawk>rc? i'd assume release candidate
13:59<LadyHawk>which is older
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14:00<Xaroth>LadyHawk: that's why he said it was a test question :)
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14:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i want openttd 7.1, too
14:02<@Rubidium>then fracking finish opengfx, opensample and opengm ;)
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>and open3dmap?
14:04<Xaroth>those are for 8.0 .
14:04<@Rubidium>YAMRP and YAMRP ;)
14:05<LadyHawk>allow a 'signal setup' to set the preferred route
14:05<LadyHawk>of a train that passes that signal into the block
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>LadyHawk: if you can't program it, you can design an interface for it that does not require micromanagement
14:06<LadyHawk>open that setup with your magic ctrl key
14:06<LadyHawk>when placing signal.. i dunnio
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>ctrl is already used
14:07<LadyHawk>another hidden feature i didn't know about? *goes and checks*
14:07<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: ctrl-key is used, but apparantly there is a "magic ctrl"-key too
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i don't have a "magic ctrl" key
14:08<LadyHawk>i discovered quite a few things being attached to the ctrl key i never knew about today, thats why i was calling that key magic =P
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14:08<Eddi|zuHause>actually, i don't have a "ctrl" key either
14:08<@Rubidium>strg or so then ;)
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14:09<@Rubidium>for those people not being blessed with a non-German keyboard
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>a long time ago i had a keyboard where somebody had written "ctrl" on the "strg" key ;)
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>ok... my RMB finally gave up completely...
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14:17<Tefad>i had that happen once
14:17<Tefad>i bought a new mouse.
14:17<Tefad>it did /not/ get along with my modem no matter what configurations i tried. mobo defect i think. had to buy 2nd replacement.
14:18<Tefad>(ps2 mouse died, bought serial.. bought ps2..)
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>hm. is it a wise idea to hotplug a ps2-mouse?
14:21<Aali>Eddi|zuHause: your OS wont know about it so it's probably not going to work
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't feel like rebooting either
14:30<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: it might or might not crash your system, though
14:30<planetmaker>or get a ps2 to usb adapter
14:33<@petern>if you're unlucky you'll blow the fuse
14:33<@petern>so the port'll never work again
14:37<Alberth1>but you get a free shutdown in exchange
14:38<@petern>not usually
14:38<jonty-comp>it shutdown mine
14:38<jonty-comp>interestingly I hotplug the ps/2 keyboard on my server all the time, and linux seems to detect it
14:39<Tefad>that's not really what happens
14:39<Tefad>ps2 keyboards get auto init'd by most machines
14:39<Tefad>ps2 mice have different inits
14:39<jonty-comp>well if you plug a ps/2 keyboard in when running XP it doesn't do anything]
14:40<Tefad>jonty-comp: depends on the computer.
14:40<Tefad>also laptops love hotplug devices for some reason
14:40<Tefad>and i think rackmount shit too
14:40<Tefad>oh crap excuse me. i forgot where i was : x
14:43<jonty-comp>this laptop has a docking station with PS/2, serial and parallel on
14:43<jonty-comp>and a CD drive
14:43<jonty-comp>but the manual says I'm not supposed to hotplug it
14:43<jonty-comp>seems to work fine though
14:43<jonty-comp>(yes, it is an old laptop)
14:44<Tefad>sounds prehistoric.. like pentium-classic era
14:44<jonty-comp>t'is an ultraportable
14:44<Tefad>then you should be ok *shrug*
14:44<@petern>non-hotpluggable docking station seems ... dumb
14:44<jonty-comp>and the hard disk vibration is reverberating through my entire desk, and annoying me
14:45<@petern>another issue with hotplugging ps/2 is that often the bios will not allocate an IRQ to it if it's not present on boot up
14:45<jonty-comp>but the wifi has decided to stop working on my desktop
14:45<@petern>applies to the mouse, anyway
14:45<jonty-comp>as well as the sound
14:45*petern grumbles about onboard audio
14:45*jonty-comp grumbles about wifi
14:45<@petern>i keep losing ebay auctions for decent audio kit :(
14:46*Tefad grumbles about horribly written drivers that make windows explode upon deinstallation
14:46<@petern>my recording input has a major dc bias
14:46<@petern>which explains why things like talking in valve games fucked things up
14:46*jonty-comp complains about windows drivers in general
14:46<jonty-comp>particularly huge ones.
14:46<jonty-comp>like nvidia drivers, I'm sure I don't actually need 100MB of crap
14:47<Tefad>oh larl. i thought there was some language holding-back in here. ignore my previous odd comment.
14:47<jonty-comp>if you swear in an open-source channel, you get banned from the internet
14:47<jonty-comp>except in #debian
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>if you are unsure, ROT13 it ;)
14:47<oskari89>Where can i find the Finnish (random) placenames? I could add some..
14:48<oskari89>Finnish.lng -> not found
14:48<jonty-comp>hmm, there must be a finnish translation
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: modifying town name generators is not supported (it changes names in existing savegames)
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14:48<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: provide a grf for it instead
14:49<oskari89>I see. How to do?
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>(what's the fuzz with town names suddenly)
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: i'm pretty sure there is a tutorial somewhere
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>as well as examples how to transform an existing town name generator into a grf
14:50<+glx><jonty-comp> like nvidia drivers, I'm sure I don't actually need 100MB of crap <-- but it supports all models and languages :)
14:50<+glx>in one file
14:50<jonty-comp>well, exactly
14:50<jonty-comp>that's nice for them
14:50<+glx>for me too
14:50<jonty-comp>but I don't need 99% of it
14:50<SmatZ>not all models, just GF6+
14:50<+glx>only one file to seek
14:50<SmatZ>in the newest drivers pack
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14:51<Eddi|zuHause>a one-size-fits-all download is not the worst idea they ever had
14:51<jonty-comp>bah, capacitor whine
14:51*jonty-comp wills laptop to shut up and charge quietly
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>considering the cheapness of bandwidth nowadays
14:52<jonty-comp>it seems a bit silly to go through that whole thing of selecting your card and then having the same download for most of them
14:53<jonty-comp>they should just have a "click here if your card is this old" button
14:53<SmatZ>when I want to download "czech" version of the driver, I have to select "Polish" in the dropdown to download the international version
14:53<SmatZ>there is nothing like "czech" or "international" in the dropdown
14:53<SmatZ>I wonder who designed that
14:53<oskari89>Eddie|zuHause: Can you remember where's the tutorial?
14:53<jonty-comp>I'm happy they provide English (US) and English (UK) though :p
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>and use the tab key next time you misspell a name
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14:54<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: I didn't notice the spell error before you said it
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>well, i did, because it did not highlight me :p
14:57<jonty-comp>oh, why is there a pear on my desk
14:57<jonty-comp>I don't remember putting that there
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14:57<Eddi|zuHause>it spontaneously materialised
14:58<jonty-comp>quite possible
14:58*jonty-comp spontaneously dematerialises to the television viewing area
15:00<Eddi|zuHause> <- "die spinnen, die Briten"
15:03<SmatZ>10 years ago, I wouldn't believe this can be true
15:03<frosch123>10 years ago, I could not believe arbitrary webpages to be censored either :p
15:04<SmatZ>we got free from one totality 20 years ago, and another one is coming
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>well, next year we will see a ban on websites that offer encryption...
15:05-!-andythenorth [~andy@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>tor is already semi-illegal
15:06<SmatZ>this week, I started considering to vote for "piratpartiet" in next elections... not that I wanted "music for free", but I want to stop this madness
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15:07<Eddi|zuHause>yeah... in germany they got 0.9% in the european election, i expect that to increase in the federal election in september
15:07<frosch123>so you did not yet vote for them in eu election
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15:08<+glx>and you don't have LOPPSI :)
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>imho, the 5% limit is ridiculously high, though... a 3% (or so) limit would have done the trick as well...
15:08<SmatZ>I think they weren't in nomination anyway
15:08<SmatZ>glx: it was cancelled, wasn't it?
15:08<+glx>(it's just a project for now)
15:09<+glx>hmm it was HADOPI :)
15:09<+glx>not cancelled, but censored
15:10<+glx>only a judge can shutdown internet now, and they have to prove we are guilty
15:10<+glx>that's way better
15:10<+glx>and constitutionnal too :)
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>not many things can be as bad as our "the constitution court should not fucking interfere with my laws all the time" minister of interior
15:11<+glx>it was not minister of interior
15:11<+glx>but the idea is the same :)
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>well, that was an actual sentence of our minister (minus the "fucking")
15:13<+glx> <-- that's the next step (I didn't look for translated page)
15:13<+glx>there are "nice" things in it
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>"une liste noire des sites, non rendue publique, sera établie par l'administration, les FAI seront quant à eux tenus de bloquer l'accès à ces sites" <- if my french not totally fails me, that is what our parliament decided last week
15:16<+glx>yes black list, it's not really a bad thing, unless it's done like in china
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is, if the power is there, it WILL be abused
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15:20<+glx>and we are the country of human rights
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes, 200 years ago ;)
15:21<+glx>they used it to censore HADOPI :)
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i read that
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15:31<SmatZ>allowing some commercial organisation to disconnect people from the internet
15:31<SmatZ>while they still have to pay for it
15:31<SmatZ>is outrage
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15:32<SmatZ>"stopping paedophilia" "stopping terrorists" and such
15:32<SmatZ>just... when they want to censor internet, there can be millions of reasons for that
15:32<SmatZ>and these are things people dislike
15:32<SmatZ>so they chose them
15:32<SmatZ>if people disliked cows
15:33<SmatZ>the reason would be "there are pictures of cows on the internet"
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15:34<SmatZ>I wonder haw many paedophiles and terrorists are actually stopped in their crime
15:34<SmatZ>if there is any crime done by paedophiles on the internet
15:35<SmatZ>I just hate "playing on emotions"
15:35<Noldo>Think of the children!!
15:36<Noldo>SmatZ: btw, do they use the finnish system as a good example there?
15:37<SmatZ> :)
15:38<SmatZ>Noldo: I don't know
15:38<SmatZ>we don't have problems with internet censorship afaik
15:38<frosch123> <- I like that one (sorry german)
15:38<SmatZ>but some ISPs are blocking internet ... they use some "list of bad sites" provided by some organisation
15:38<frosch123>(though you can take a look at the print-preview)
15:39<SmatZ>truely trustworthy
15:39<SmatZ>and it has been at least once misused to block a regular site
15:39<Noldo>SmatZ: well, here the list is provided by the police
15:39<Noldo>and there is one finnish site on the list
15:40<Noldo>only because it lists the addresses on the list
15:41<SmatZ>frosch123: nice :)
15:42<SmatZ>maybe it would be better if it worked only when accessed from "government-owned" institutions
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>the funniest part is the reference to circumventing a copy protection :p
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16:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16617 /trunk/src/airport.h: -Cleanup: some incorrect indenting
16:58<oskari89>Eddie|zuhause: Hmm, is town name generation hard-coded on default names?
16:58<oskari89>For example, Finnish ones.
16:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r16618 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_airport.cpp: -Fix (r16614): Silence a warning.
17:01<frosch123>the default names are hardcoded, but you can also add new schemes by newgrfs
17:01<frosch123>and there are various of them available already
17:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16619 /trunk/src/ (airport.cpp airport.h): -Cleanup: more coding style in airport stuff.
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: still not figured out how to spell names?
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>not only is it disrespectful of people to misspell their names
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>it also fails the point of highlighting them
17:07<oskari89>Oh, sorry about that.
17:07-!-mars3142 [] has joined #openttd
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>try Ed[Tab]
17:07-!-Azrael [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:07<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: give it up, I also highlight on frosh
17:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16620 /trunk/src/airport.cpp: -Fix (r16619): sometimes one misses the obvious :(
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>it does usually not happen ;)
17:08<@Rubidium>if they can't be bothered to write my name correctly, they aren't bothered enough to get their question answered
17:09<+glx>btw typing Eddi|zuHause by hand with an extra "e" is silly :)
17:09<@Rubidium>and if I can get bothered enough by someone to type /ignore <nickname>, they don't care about getting their questions answered either
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17:18<oskari89>Eddi|zuHause: Do you know what happens if the town generation names are same on external GRF, than on the hard-code?
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>why would anything happen?
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17:19<oskari89>External grf and hard-coded names mix up?
17:19<oskari89>Or do they? :P
17:19<Yexo>you have to chose one town name set
17:19<Yexo>either a built-in one or one defined by a single newgrf
17:20<oskari89>Yexo: So the single newgrf overrides all hard-code names?
17:21<Yexo>oskari89: in the main menu, go to game options, then chose one town name set
17:21<Yexo>all generated names will be from that set
17:21<Yexo>you can't mix town-name sets
17:21<+glx>grf town names are added to the list
17:21<oskari89>Okay, i understand now :)
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17:38<rortom>cool now we have a petern and PeterT :p
17:39<@petern>/kick PeterT lies!
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17:39<PeterT>why doesnt the exec script command work?
17:39<majestyk>hi all :)
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>depends on what script you want to command to exec
17:40<PeterT>i want it to exec a script i made
17:41<majestyk>just a quick question - probably an easy one too - how close do truck stations and train stations have to be for a feeder service to work?
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>they have to be the same station
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17:41<Eddi|zuHause>use the ctrl key if they are not directly adjacent
17:42<majestyk>same station, like having the same name?
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>same station as having the same station sign with both a train and a truck symbol
17:43<majestyk>ah, I see :) learned something already
17:43<PeterT>ok, so what do i do about exec command
17:43<majestyk>and what about using the ctrl key?
17:43<PeterT>the script name is JackServer.scr
17:43<PeterT>i use
17:43<Xaroth>majestyk: it allows you to distant-join a station
17:43<PeterT>exec JackServer.scr
17:44<PeterT>and it says something like "no local script file found"
17:44<Xaroth>PeterT: use a full path?
17:44<Xaroth>exec C:\bla\bla\bla\bla\JackServer.scr
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: put it into the scripts directory?
17:44<Xaroth>or whatever-teh-fook
17:44<PeterT>i did put it in script directory
17:44<PeterT>full path might work, not sure though
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>and did you try the existing scripts?
17:45<PeterT>thats what i tested with
17:45<PeterT>scripts like
17:45<PeterT>which i made
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>majestyk: when you build a truck station, you may press the ctrl key, and it pops up with a window. there you can choose which station to join
17:47<majestyk>Thank you :)
17:47<dragonhorseboy>is there any website or forum thread for all of these ai/gui thinges in the ottd downloader list thing? (especially just what is 'NOcab' anyway?)
17:48<majestyk>I was a bit puzzled about when to use the ctrl key, but distant-join pointed me in the right direction
17:48<Yexo>dragonhorseboy: for most AIs
17:48<majestyk>the wiki was useful from that point on :)
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>majestyk: also check
17:48<Yexo>dragonhorseboy: list of all files with links to forum topics / websites
17:49<majestyk>OK, that looks useful too, thanks
17:50<PeterT>oops, thats not a page
17:50<majestyk>I'll go and play some more, thank you very much for your help Eddi and Xaroth
17:50<PeterT>what site in wiki do i go to for the variables for the "setting" command?
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17:50*PeterT waves
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>,%2021.%20Okt%201925.png <- example of a transfer station
17:51<dragonhorseboy>thanks for the forum link yexo
17:56<PeterT>is this correct:
17:56<PeterT>[pf] forbid.90_deg 1
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
17:57<PeterT>i thought so
17:57<PeterT>what is the correct?
17:57<PeterT>oh wait, got it
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18:06<PeterT>4 is the highest growth speed?
18:06<PeterT>am i correct?
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18:22<Svish>soo.... how do people usually go about upgrading their rail systems? :S
18:23<dragonhorseboy>svish what trainset?
18:23<Svish>from electric to maglev
18:23<@Rubidium>from normal to electrified and then don't upgrade ;)
18:23<Svish>skipped monorail cause I didn't want to... :p
18:23<dragonhorseboy>svish..that doesn't tell me which trainset? (or are you using original?)
18:23<Svish>plain old
18:23<KingJ>I tend to play with rail only. Might make a special maglev route
18:23<Svish>no grf stuff
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>i go with Rubidium on that matter
18:23<dragonhorseboy> clue then..because I never get to the point of bothering with either two
18:24<dragonhorseboy>the TIM and Asiastar are enough for ground lines by then
18:24<Svish>you always quit before you come to monorail?
18:24<dragonhorseboy>svish..nope...look up to the sky :P
18:24<Svish>planes are so boring... :p
18:25<KingJ>Rail and road all the way
18:25<Svish>i don't even use road...
18:25<KingJ>Who cares if the train journey takes 6 months? :P
18:25<dragonhorseboy>svish...then don't bother asking for speed? :P
18:25<Svish>but fast trains are fun trains :p
18:26<Svish>oh well... guess its the same old "send all trains to depots - upgrade all rails - create new trains one-by-one"... *sigh*
18:26<@Rubidium>monorail is ugly and maglev is hard to properly see
18:26<Svish>but they are so fast
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>maglev is the most ugly of all
18:26<@Rubidium>so I just play with SH40/Asiastar till far into the third millenium
18:26<Aali>no newgrf railtypes yet?
18:27<Svish>third millenium?
18:27<Svish>must have a crazy system then...
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: no, petern is a lazy bastard
18:27<Svish>may I see? :p
18:27<Aali>then you could just point all these whiners to the "all railtypes are compatible" grf :)
18:27<Yexo>Svish: years 2xxx are third millenium :)
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>Svish: the 3rd milennium starts in 2001
18:27<Yexo>we live in the 3rd millenium
18:27<Svish>always forget that, haha
18:28<Yexo>but to answer your original question, generally I don't upgrade
18:28<Yexo>I upgrade normal->electrified, then sometimes I build some maglev lines
18:29<@Rubidium>and the effect of maglev isn't that big on 128x128 maps ;)
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>i never played a 128x128 map
18:30<dragonhorseboy>yexo..yeah I'm same..I usually only bother buying the dbsetxl maglevs when its two far-away large cities
18:30<Svish>i play default... 256
18:30<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: never looked at Rubidium's 128² map ?
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i did ;)
18:30<@Rubidium>that's not Eddi|zuHause's style ;)
18:30<+glx>amazing stuff
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>with the escher-style ship bridges ;)
18:30<Svish>anyone have a giant screenshot of a game they are proud of? curious to see how others are doing things...
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>i only have small screenshots
18:31<KingJ>I've got a 400mb screenshot somewhere
18:31<KingJ>I've not actually tried opening it
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>giant screenshots are not exactly handle-able on a 2048^2 map
18:31<+glx>how long did it take to create it ?
18:31<KingJ>About a minute or two
18:31<Svish>oh, that large game
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>most programs crash on trying to open them
18:31<Svish>was thinking more like regular 256 or slammer :p
18:31<KingJ>I deleted it, i'll go make another and time it
18:32<KingJ>ah no, found it
18:33<KingJ>The windows photo viewer refuses to open it
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>,%204.%20Sep%201925.png <- one of my favourites
18:34<KingJ>Photoshop seems to be loading it fine, albeit slowly
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18:34<KingJ>Nice loop
18:35<KingJ>Could you not make a breakaway section for those that wish to bypass Innsberg?
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>KingJ: many programs are trying to decompress the entire image before displaying
18:35<Svish>haha, lol@ ships :p
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>and crash on lack of memory
18:36<KingJ>So far, it's loaded about a sixth of the image and consumed 2.18GB of RAM
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>i also have these:,%2026.%20Feb%201934.png
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>or this one:,%207.%20Maer%201930-2.png
18:40<Svish>hm, my giant one takes 20 mb... would take a while to upload with this bandwidth :S
18:41<KingJ>It loaded it, but any operations took quite a while to take effect. Seems to be swapping loads. Need more RAM :P
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>and this one is almost famous:,%2017.%20Okt%201981.png
18:42<Svish>reason for more ram: transport tycoon... didn't see that coming :p
18:42<KingJ>haha Svish
18:42<KingJ>Especailly when the original OTTD needed 16mb I think
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18:43<KingJ>No, 4mb - just checked my old CD case
18:43<Svish>i don't have the original... =/
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it used 4MB
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>it showed the memory usage in the about box
18:44<Svish>hm... openttd doesnt
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause>this one is a good shot:,%2021.%20Sep%201956.png
18:45<KingJ>Just uploading a few screenshots from my current game
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>what a load of uglyness :p
18:47<KingJ>I prefer that over scenic routes
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>interesting resolution, though ;)
18:47<KingJ>At least I don't completely destroy the towns :p
18:47<KingJ>Yeah, I can't get any more throughput on those stations
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>i meant the screen resolution
18:49<KingJ>Running in windowed mode on a 1920x1200 monitor
18:50<KingJ>Running a month old build of Cargodist, seems to have a few odd quirks such as passenger numbers fluctuating by several tens of thousands sometimes
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18:51<KingJ>But it a bit of a giant game, 148 stations, 750 odd trains plus assorted road vehs. Not a large game by OTTD standards but when you throw in the overhead of cargo routing...
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19:02<dragonhorseboy>jonty-comp you still around?
19:09*dragonhorseboy pokes jonty-comp :p
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19:49<oskari89>Hahaha :DDD
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>random outburst 1 hour after anyone last said anything... what's confusing about that? :p
19:51<oskari89>You'll see shortly :)
19:53<oskari89>Compare this one to this one:
19:54<dragonhorseboy>well the real bus isn't actually over any rails yet :p
19:54<oskari89>No, but had the barrier on it's top :)
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>i don't get the connection...
19:57<dragonhorseboy>me neither
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19:59<PeterT>did you already know that the giant screenshot option is bugged
20:00<PeterT>anyone planning on fixing it
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>the whole game is full of bugs
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>it would help if you could be slightly more specific
20:00<PeterT>i know, but thats a fairly noticible bug
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>nobody ever uses the giant screenshot
20:00<PeterT>specific? i click giant screenshot and i get disconnected from my multiplayer game
20:00<PeterT>well, i do
20:01<PeterT>and so do that 5 people that told me it was bugged
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>so you can't expect people to notice
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>and that sounds not like a bug
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20:01<Eddi|zuHause>it sounds like the game being stalled, and you getting kicked off for not being able to keep up
20:02<PeterT>ok, lets try again, shall we?
20:02<PeterT>yes, im kicked again
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>you could try to fork the screenshot process, like it is done with savegames
20:02<PeterT>what is fork?
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>the thing you eat with
20:03<PeterT>i know, but thats not how your using it
20:04<PeterT>ok well whatever
20:04<PeterT>thanks anyway
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20:06<Svish>hm.... that reserved path overlay thing should be more visibale with maglevs...
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20:16<Eddi|zuHause>well... fix it
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's an easy graphics replacement
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>(Action A?)
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20:49<Chruker>meh, why does the GPL website taste like propaganda...
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>does anything not taste like propaganda?
20:53<Chruker>Statements like: "to distribute DVD players unless they restrict the user according to the official rules of the DVD conspiracy"
20:54<Chruker>Or constantly calling DRM for Digital Restrictions Mismanagement
20:54<reldred>Chruker: GNUtards are fundamentalist wackos of their own special kind...
20:54<dragonhorseboy>well it is true.. DRM is stupid ;)
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>well, that's exactly what it is ;)
20:54<reldred>But their whole campaign is childish at best
20:55<reldred>Sorry, shouldn't bash the GNU folks, they're alright, I'll just call them freetards instead
20:55<Chruker>When I come to their site to read up on the details, I would expect it to be more 'grownup'
20:56<Chruker>After all it is law stuff
20:56<reldred>But then there is this very special kind of freetard whp's repsoinsible for a lot of the GNU stuff anyway
20:57<reldred>I feel like loading QNX up agian, just so I can be hardcore and rebel against the free software movement with my pirated RTOS.
20:57<dragonhorseboy>reldred..hope its not 6.2 which was actually free to home users
20:57<reldred>Plus, their desktop environmet is killer. Photon they call it.
20:57<reldred>dragonhorseboy: 6.3 was better
20:58<reldred>But those trials were pulled a while back, so aren't technically free or legit, thus aquiring them requires acts of piracy ;)
20:58<dragonhorseboy>what trials?
20:59<reldred>6.2 was crap, 6.3 was released under a limited nature
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what you are talking about...
21:00<reldred>And the trial thing was for devs, you had 90 days dev access iirc before it locked down to 'home use'
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>trial versions are evil
21:01<Eddi|zuHause>they are like drug dealers giving you the first doses for free
21:01<Eddi|zuHause>fucking forums...
21:01<dragonhorseboy>reldred... 6.2 was not crap
21:01<Eddi|zuHause>i always manage to hit the exact time when the backup is running
21:02<dragonhorseboy>and btw the old (still can be found but not always by the http: mean) version of 6.2-based bootdisk can be fun to load as well. even for 1.38MB it still had the web browser included as well
21:02<dragonhorseboy>that showed how tiny it was
21:04<reldred>6.2 wasn't the floppy image, the floppy image was 4.xx
21:04<reldred>6.2 and 6.3 were CD only
21:07<dragonhorseboy>reldred... the 4.xx is the old copy
21:07<dragonhorseboy>there was newer one as well
21:08<reldred>Not that I've seen, and I was following it pretty damn closely for a while. It was a roughly 250mb cd image.
21:08<reldred>Still got copies of the iso's at home.
21:09<reldred>I was going to get into security systems at one point and had to brush up on QNX, a lot of the big security systems use QNX over various other unix varients
21:10<reldred>then realized how much of a dogs breakfast the security industry is and kept my attention on data networks and telephony
21:13<reldred>srsly, security is stupid, they deliberately break/change all of the programming software every update just to make things harder
21:13<dragonhorseboy>I never bothered with much of any security stuff at all..I just know about periodical disinfect scan on my main computer (the window one has its own software firewall&av likewise)
21:13<dragonhorseboy>I never touch outlook :P
21:13<reldred>Nah, I'm talking security systems in buildings, hundreds of sensors, door strikes, etc.
21:13<reldred>and the physical hardware that drives them
21:13<dragonhorseboy>yeah I know what you mean
21:14<reldred>it's a silly industry
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21:19<reldred>phones are much more fun, they don't break everything deliberately every time a new system comes out :)
21:19<reldred>atleast NEC don't
21:19<reldred>(too much)
21:21<reldred>i'm programming a system now, 24 handsets, 10channel primary rate ISDN, two doorphones with remote operated door locks
21:21<reldred>crazy voicemail system I should probably start programming now -_-
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21:23<Eddi|zuHause><reldred> srsly, security is stupid, they deliberately break/change all of the programming software every update just to make things harder <-- well, that is not as stupid as it sounds... because in that area, it is not so much the question whether there are security holes, but rather how fast they can be found
21:24<Eddi|zuHause>and by building everything from scratch, you get a different set of security holes in each update
21:25<reldred>But, because you change it so often, nobody knows here/why/when those holes are
21:25<reldred>security through obscurity, they're a big fan of that concept
21:25<reldred>I'm not -_-
21:25<reldred>Hence why I do phones instead
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>well, the only other option is to make it fully open source
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>which is known to be the more secure variant, but it comes with some implications...
21:30<reldred>Hahaha, that will never happen in the security system business.
21:31<reldred>oh great, this voicemail is still set to year0 unix time
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21:51<reldred>These voicemail systems are crackers. They ship with the system date completely out of wack, and a login page (to begin the installation of the system) that won't let you login if the voicemail date doesn't match the computers date. So you have to login via ssh, change the time and date manually on CLI, then go back in and accept the license aggreement and do the software install
21:56<reldred>There, silly thing is running now -_-
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22:09<reldred>Ooookay, it works -_-
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22:43<solorvox>hey guys, I'm reading the wiki but not finding an easy way to upgrade from normal/elect trains to monorail/mag without deleting the train, then depot, and creating a whole new set
22:44<solorvox>is there a way to upgrade the train/depot?
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 22 00:00:03 2009