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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-06-28

---Logopened Sun Jun 28 00:00:45 2009
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05:02<@petern>oh
05:02<@petern>what've i done wrong :s
05:05<Alberth>trusting that you are safe for water falling from the sky?
05:14<@petern>oh
05:14<@petern>wtf
05:15<@petern>i had forgotten a return statement at the end of a function
05:15<@petern>instead of the compiler complaining, it returned a pointer from somewhere else
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05:16<TinoDidriksen>But had a return statement in a conditional?
05:17<@petern>pardon?
05:17<Tefad>talking about coding style
05:17<TinoDidriksen>if() or other branch.
05:17<Tefad>multiple return paths
05:18*petern adds -Wall
05:18<TinoDidriksen>It should very much complain about no return path, but may not complain about one path not having one.
05:18<Tefad>instead of falling throw to the bottom and modifying a default return value along the way through the function
05:18<Tefad>throw? through.
05:20<TinoDidriksen>-Wall -Wextra -ansi -pendantic
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05:24<@petern>TinoDidriksen, ta :)
05:25<@petern>warning: unused parameter ‘argc’
05:25<@petern>hehe
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06:51<planetmaker>I just compiled binaries for nforenum and grfcodec of the current svn checkout. Find them there: http://mz.openttdcoop.org/bundles/grfdev
06:51<planetmaker>And please tell me, if they don't work (especially windows)
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07:42<George>Hi. Question about banans
07:43<George>Would it be possible to have some "impotant change" flag for GRF?
07:43<George>So, if a game is started with the previous GRF version, it should be forced to use the new one?
07:45<Alberth>as soon as we can change newgrfs in-game, that would become a feasible option.
07:45<Ammler>Alberth: you can't?
07:45<Alberth>however, fulfilling the pre-condition may take a long time
07:46<Ammler>not supporting doesn't mean, it isn't possible.
07:46<Alberth>Ammler: you don't get red error messages with "game may crash" texts when changing newgrf's in-game?
07:47<@Rubidium>George: that requires OpenTTD to have a direct internet connection when loading *any* savegame
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07:47<Alberth>ah, you want a flag so you can force a crash :)
07:47<Ammler>Alberth: yep, but it works, if you know, what you do.
07:47<@Rubidium>Ammler: history has shown most people do not know what they do
07:48<Ammler>and a grf dev should know, if his grf is downwards compatible.
07:48<Alberth>and with the flag, the grf author gets that control
07:48<@Rubidium>Alberth: only when the user consents to OpenTTD checking whether there is such a NewGRF each time you load/start a new game
07:49<@Rubidium>given the fact that lots of people still play offline *or* cannot connect to bananas from OpenTTD due to firewalls etc. this feature is bound to be incomplete
07:50<Alberth>well, it could happen also when I upload a new grf version for the next game, then load the old game
07:51<Alberth>(of course that is trickier as it implies copying of the flag to the user machine
07:51<@Rubidium>and what is a "impotant [sic] change"? And what NewGRFs should it exactly force to upgrade? What is people are using duplicate GRF IDs (YES that happens!)
07:51<frosch123>and to which grfs should it apply, only the previous version (how shall it detect that), or shall isr 8 force upgrading from isr 1
07:51<@Rubidium>and what if I use ECS alpha1 town vector and George says ECS final 27.9 is an "important change"? Should it update? Bets are it is vastly incompatible
07:52<@Rubidium>frosch123: shall isr 8 with "important change" force downgrade from isr 9?
07:52<frosch123>:p
07:52<Ammler>the current problem now is also, if you have the newest version of a grf but also an older "buggier" version, if you then load a save with a 3rd version (somewhere between), then it could load the older buggier version.
07:52<Alberth>and force from 8 -> 9 too :)
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07:53<frosch123>so, only solution: wait for noai to establish an approved solution for ais, and the do the same for newgrfs including "minimal savegame version"
07:53<@Rubidium>Ammler: but *forcing* an update doesn't solve your problem!
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07:54<Ammler>forcing a update would mean, it needs versioning
07:54<Ammler>so you have both :-)
07:54<@Rubidium>you *just* need a versioning system in NewGRFs
07:54<Korenn>I don't want games to force anything on me. it can suggest stuff to me, but I should have the control
07:55<@Rubidium>preferably one that tells me what version is newest and what version is the (newest) *compatible* version for a savegame
07:55<Ammler>Rubidium: why is that such a big issue?
07:56<Ammler>compatiblity "should" be there with the GRFID
07:56<@Rubidium>Ammler: if I've a savegame with ISR 8.0 and ISR 8.1 and ISR 9.0 on my hard disk (available for OTTD), which one should it chose? The compatible one or the incompatible but newer one?
07:57<@Rubidium>Ammler: we ALL know that GRFIDs are not changed at all, regardless of the specs kindly suggesting to that on incompatible changes
07:57<Ammler>he, isn't that obvious?
07:58<@Rubidium>with either "forcing" or "take the newest" you're screwed
07:58<Alberth>no, in particular if I hate the new features in 9.0
07:58<George>Rubidium: It may need a field to choose version to replace
07:58<Ammler>Alberth: I meant of course 8.1
07:59<Ammler>as 9.0 should have a new GRFID
07:59<@Rubidium>Ammler: we all know that that ain't going to happen unless enforced
08:00<Alberth>Ammler: so can you not extend in a backwards compatible way and call that 8.1? I still am getting new stuff I don't necessarily want
08:00<Ammler>well, sometimes, they do, sometimes not
08:00<Ammler>but mostly because they aren't aware of the need.
08:01<Ammler>it is something introduces from OpenTTD
08:01<@Rubidium>Ammler: what is?
08:01<@Rubidium>the request to change grfid when making it incompatible?
08:01<Ammler>that you load another GRID with same ID
08:01<Ammler>GRF* :-)
08:01<George>Rubidium: What is wring in adding versions to GRFs?
08:02<Ammler>ttdpatch does only look for the path
08:02<George>As soon as it tested with AIs ..
08:02<@Rubidium>George: nothing, just that it is something that someone needs to do
08:02<George>Rubidium: I hope AIs code can be used? at least as idea?
08:04<Ammler>Alberth: if you don't want to update, don't download teh newer version.
08:05<Ammler>well, indeed, updating shouldn't be forced but somehow supported.
08:05<Alberth>Ammler: how do you find out you don't like the new features then?
08:06<Ammler>but now it does load a random grf, why is that better?
08:07<Alberth>it's not
08:07<Ammler>so wouldn't be loading the newest compatible be best alternative?
08:08<Ammler>(and if the exact same newgrf is availabe, giving a option to update)
08:09<Alberth>Don't know. As long as the user is in control, it does not matter much what you propose by default.
08:09<Ammler>hmm, well, you could update by removing and readding
08:10<Ammler>he, now I see, it isn't a big thing with the gui, you have that problem only on the console.
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08:34<welshdragon>i'm not the server admin
08:35<welshdragon>but is2 beta 3 seems to be causing a lot of desyncs
08:40<Ammler>welshdragon: could you reproduce them?
08:40<welshdragon>Ammler: /join #is2-prozone
08:59<Ammler>dbg: [grf] [2cc_trainset.beta_2.02/2ccdj.grf:1] FeatureChangeInfo: Invalid pseudo sprite length 4 (expected 6)! <-- could that desync?
09:00<@Rubidium>not really as it happens for all clients
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09:39<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> indeed. Probably is patience ~age^x with x > 1 <- you might wanna limit age to >0, too ;)
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>and add a personality constant
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>some people are never really going to be patient
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09:41<Alberth>he just discussed the general shape of the curve :p
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09:44<Eddi|zuHause><petern> planetmaker, impatient <- the last time i tried to put up a rule when to use which prefix, it came out like: "un-" when the word starts with a vowel, "im-" when it starts with a "p", "ir-" when it starts with an "r", and "in-" when it starts with another consonants... but probably there are more exceptions than words following this rule ;)
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09:46<Eddi|zuHause>and yes, i am reading a day-old backlog :p
09:46<Alberth>You can always explicitly list the words that you support by the rule :p
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>unavailable
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>irresponsible
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>impossible
09:47<Alberth>not now plz
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>;)
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>all those have a double meaning with your question ;(
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>;)
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>but then there are words like inedible
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and i forgot "illogical"
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>all that is so much easier in german...
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>in 95% of the cases it is "un-" in german
09:54<Korenn>inflammable :P
09:54<Alberth>Unfortunately, I could not follow German instead of French in high school
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10:30<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16680 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: don't go through all the station unloading stuff when there is no vehicle at the station
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10:33<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16681 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: only resolve the company once for vehicle payment instead of each time a cargo packet is delivered
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10:36<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16682 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: make (static) industry list used to trigger the industries' production compile unit static instead of passing it around as pointer
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: breaking fonsinchen's patch? :p
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10:40<@Rubidium>I wouldn't dare ;)
10:40<@Rubidium>I am breaking my own patch though
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11:13<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16683 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: move the cargo payment handling to a seperate class. Based on ideas of fonso/fonsinchen.
11:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r16684 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: Add maxdim function for Dimension struct.
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11:32<@petern>doesn't r16678 mean some pointless copying of data in some cases?
11:32<@petern>returning a struct rather than a pointer to a struct
11:33<@petern>in Get(Production|Acceptance)AroundTiles
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12:12<rasco>Ammler:
12:12<rasco>you there?
12:13<rasco>or does anyone else know whether basecosts.grf is in content.openttd.org?
12:13<rasco>because i cant find it there
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it is there
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>i got it from there a while back...
12:15<rasco>hmm
12:15<rasco>where the hell
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>if in doubt, it should also be on grfcrawler
12:16<rasco>theres only Modified Building Costs
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12:16<rasco>well but i need people to be able to get it via in-game downloader
12:18<Ammler>rasco: I can upload it
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>actually you don't. you can create a game locally with basecosts, then remove the grf from the savegame
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>then load the savegame on the server
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>so people do not need the grf
12:18<Ammler>indeed.
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>this is one of the rare cases where removing a grf actually works
12:19<rasco>Eddi|zuHause: uhhh but i have random maps
12:19<Ammler>:-)
12:19<rasco>Eddi|zuHause: my server is on 24/7
12:19<rasco>Ammler: that would be reeealy cool
12:20<@Rubidium>:O more underused servers
12:20<rasco>Rubidium: whaddya mean?
12:21<@Rubidium>on average number of players < number of servers
12:21*Belugas thinks that users creating servers are acutally users who like to see the game running with zero intervention on their part...
12:21<@Rubidium>meaning that on average you are alone on a server
12:21*Belugas goes back to freaking real life
12:21<rasco>my server is pretty well visited :)
12:22<Ammler>rasco: it is there, just hidden from main stream users ;-)
12:22<Ammler>but it should be accessable if loaded on the server
12:23<Ammler>if not, tell me, then I need to change min version
12:24<rasco>yey it works
12:24<rasco>awesome
12:25<Ammler>yw
12:25<rasco>Belugas: care to explain more exactly what you mean
12:25<Ammler>it isn't a really nice code
12:25<rasco>Ammler: thanks alot
12:26<@Rubidium>rasco: what Belugas means is that servers need to be managed in some way otherwise people will cheat/'deface' your server
12:26<@Rubidium>and give it a bad name etc.
12:27<rasco>yup, i have 4 or 5 admins, and discard town destroying commands and stuff like that
12:27<rasco>could be more admins but oh well..
12:27<Ammler>1 is already more then 90% of the other servers have. ;-)
12:27<rasco>of course its not soo easy to find trusworthy ones especially when it's a high score server
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12:52<Ammler>what's a high score server?
12:54<rasco>the game ends when one company reaches a company value of x
12:55<rasco>the companies on the first places get scores
12:55<rasco>(works with !login etc. commands in chat)
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13:03<Ammler>rasco: can you define different goals?
13:03<Ammler>or just company value?
13:03<rasco>at the moment it's only company value
13:03<rasco>but i had a server back a few months ago where
13:04<rasco>where you had to connect at max 10 cities with one train
13:04<rasco>the more cities the train passed the more points you got
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13:04<rasco>(quite a dirty hack in coding terms, but it worked :))
13:06<Ammler>when do the best players usually play?
13:08<rasco>at what time of the day?
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13:15<Ammler>rasco: yeah
13:15<Ammler>when is it worth to join?
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13:24<rasco>good question
13:24<rasco>maybe european evening time
13:25<rasco>like for example now there are 12 players on speedy 2
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13:36<Ammler>rasco: how long does a game take?
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13:40<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r16685 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt:
13:40<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-06-28 17:40:12
13:40<CIA-2>OpenTTD: korean - 3 fixed, 28 changed by leejaeuk5 (31)
13:44<rasco>it depends on the goal of course
13:44<rasco>goals are from 1 to 50 million
13:44<rasco>so, it can take an hour or a couple of hours
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r16686 /trunk/src/lang/german.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by planetmaker
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: finally it accepts spaces in {G ...} and {P ...}? ;)
13:51<Ammler>he, you finally agreed to switch :-P
13:52<Ammler>rasco: do all "Goal" servers use same code base?
13:52<rasco>no
13:53<rasco>all speedy's use my code
13:54<rasco>then there's experts
13:54<rasco>and back until 0.6.3 there was kurt's
13:54<Ammler>are those available?
14:06<rasco>dunno about the others
14:07<rasco>mine is currently not
14:07<rasco>are you interested in it?
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14:31<Ammler>rasco: we do sometimes a coopetition 2vs2 or also with yexo's head-2-head branch
14:33*Ammler is wondering, if there would be interests in a permanent running head-2-head server, which automatically restarts
14:33<Ammler>but people, who use custom builds is very limited
14:37<Ammler>he, 15 clients on your server but all are silent
14:37<Ammler>quite booring
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14:46<rasco>yea most people dont talk alot :/
14:46<rasco>ive been thinking aobut doing something for teamplay
14:46<rasco>or more interaction
14:48<Ammler>current server has no "real" competive place
14:48<Ammler>everyone does service his own industries/towns
14:49<planetmaker>[20:38] <Eddi|zuHause> [19:48:55] planetmaker: finally it accepts spaces in {G ...} and {P ...}? ;) <-- already supported for a bit. But WT3's search function made searching easier :)
14:51<rasco>well alot of people are not very "aggressive"
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15:10<rasco>Ammler: any ideas how it could be improved?
15:11<Ammler>he, I started a company
15:12<Ammler>but I didn't check the start year
15:12<Ammler>1930, lol
15:12<Ammler>there is no trains in default set until 1950, you know?
15:13<rasco>oh damn is it 1930? gah, i forgot to recompile
15:13<Ammler>well, we have one :-)
15:13<Ammler>you could use 2cc set with parameter 9
15:15<rasco>ah there is one train available? pheww..
15:16<rasco>okay no problem then. just freakin early :)
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15:22<Ammler>well, you have the same engine now for 20 years
15:24<rasco>i changed the starting_year randomizer to include more early years a while ago. maybe i should change it back. what do you think?
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15:28<Ammler>rasco: well, if you play for 2 hours, starting at 1930 with default set is stupid.
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15:29<mehmet>Join The Army Here: http://www.hawkee.com/snippet/6292/
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15:30<@Rubidium>why would you recruit people for the army in here?
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15:31<burch>Join The Army Here: http://www.hawkee.com/snippet/6292/
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15:31<Ammler>oftc has very bad spam filter
15:32<@Rubidium>[x] unfit (for the Dutchies: ongeschikt)
15:32<Ammler>I never see such things on freendoe
15:32<Alberth>I have already served out majesty :)
15:33<Ammler>I am at day 200, need around 230
15:34<@Rubidium>Ammler: that you don't see it on freenode might very well be due to:
15:34<rasco>hehe, click this button to be recruited
15:34<@Rubidium>a) freenode kicking people without actually doing something wrong
15:34<@Rubidium>b) you are not in a 'public' (by connection) enough channel
15:35<@Rubidium>after all, those bots usually roam using whois
15:35<LadyHawk>freenode eh?
15:36<LadyHawk>i have some fun experiences with freenode as well
15:36<@Rubidium>freenode, the server where you can't join #openttd
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15:37<Ammler>hehe
15:37<Ammler>well, suse is there
15:37<LadyHawk>i was in a channel that was forced to leave
15:37<LadyHawk>on freenode
15:37<LadyHawk>because we were victims of an attack
15:38<LadyHawk>same happened on dalnet
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15:38<cyrus>Join The Army Here: http://www.hawkee.com/snippet/6292/
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15:39<LadyHawk>are these guys um... getting blocked in the spamfilter?
15:39<LadyHawk>with /!\ in their part message by any chance?
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15:46<Ammler>LadyHawk: same happened here with opendoom clans, afaik.
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15:48<SpComb>more like fighting amongst themselves
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16:10<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r16687 /trunk/src/ (settings_gui.cpp window.cpp window_func.h window_gui.h): -Codechange: Perform re-initialization of windows with nested widgets after a language change.
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16:25<SmatZ>I was thinking about making channel +m and use "delayed autovoice" feature
16:25<SmatZ>but it needs someone with ops to be connected
16:25*glx votes for +R
16:25<SmatZ>with client with ability for that
16:25<SmatZ>(konversation can't do delayed autovoice :-/
16:26<SmatZ>glx: yeah, but I am afraid too many people would be forbidden to join then :(
16:26<SmatZ>maybe only when there is a wave of spam :)
16:29<Ammler>can't the bot do that?
16:29<SmatZ>I don't know
16:29<Ammler>KenjiE20: ?
16:30<SmatZ>DorpsGek isn't user-friendly when I ask him for "help"
16:32<frosch123>autovoice? so the average join-anyonehere-leave-noob has to skip the anyonehere part?
16:32<rasco>Ammler: do you have any recommended settings for base_costs together with av8?
16:32<Ammler>check the wiki
16:33<Ammler>it should theoretically support it, but I said, it is very old ugly code
16:33<SmatZ>frosch123: do you mind? :)
16:33<frosch123>might become quite in here :)
16:33<Ammler>well, autovoice after around 5 secs is already fine
16:34<SmatZ>frosch123: maybe he will think there is anyone actually here when someone gives him voice ;)
16:34<frosch123>s/quite/quiet/
16:34<Ammler>or does such a spamer stay longer?
16:34<SmatZ>no... it joins, spams and leaves in 1 second :)
16:34<SmatZ>but I am afraid it can change in future...
16:34<Ammler>DorpsGek could also make a motd with links to the wiki and search
16:35<Ammler>SmatZ: you just have to be faster then ;-)
16:36<frosch123>hehe, "enter the second word of the page about transfers in the wiki to gain voice"
16:36<SmatZ>:-)
16:36<planetmaker>frosch123: why 2nd?
16:36<planetmaker>You want people to read it.
16:36<Ammler>http://en.znc.in/wiki/Autovoice
16:37<frosch123>planetmaker: randomised
16:37<SmatZ>:-D
16:37<planetmaker>2nd last of 3rd paragraph
16:37<SmatZ>Ammler: nice :)
16:37<SmatZ>Supybot seems to know to autovoice only people on "autovoice list"
16:37<SmatZ><*status> No such module [autovoice]
16:38<SmatZ>hm no :)
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16:50<Ammler>[22:37] <SmatZ> Supybot seems to know to autovoice only people on "autovoice list" <-- same with znc according to the help
16:51<LadyHawk>[28/6][20:46:22] <Ammler> LadyHawk: same happened here with opendoom clans, afaik. << those bots just seem too familiar to me
16:52<LadyHawk>they're a major pain in the bum on my own irc server
16:52<LadyHawk>they keep changing their spam
16:52<LadyHawk>and never stop coming
16:53<LadyHawk>it's some irc proxy bullsh*t and once you start using it, it turns you into a spambot because their software goes and spams
16:53<Sacro>hey LadyHawk!
16:54<LadyHawk>hi Sacro
16:55<Sacro>How are you?
16:55<LadyHawk>i'm ok
16:57<Ammler>autovoice of znc does voice immediately, that wouldn't work
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17:09<andythenorth>thoughts on cable cars?
17:09<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=41770
17:10<LadyHawk>i thought you could set a delay in znc Ammler?
17:11<LadyHawk>hmm i can't see it anywhere
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17:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r16688 /trunk/src/ (intro_gui.cpp town_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Some cleanup of intro screen and town directory.
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18:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r16689 /trunk/src/ (intro_gui.cpp town_gui.cpp widget.cpp window_gui.h): -Codechange: Allow for rendering of parameterized text of nested widgets in Window::DrawWidget, adapt intro and town directory windows.
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18:42<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r16690 /trunk/src/yapf/yapf_node_rail.hpp: -Fix [FS#3002]: Missing debug string for ESRB_SAFE_TILE in YAPF debugging helper.
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18:54<Audigex>heyhey
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 29 00:00:46 2009