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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-07-12

---Logopened Sun Jul 12 00:00:35 2009
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02:58-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
02:58<Alberth>good morning
03:07<FR^2>hi Alberth
03:07<FR^2>Hmm. Restart :/ see ya
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04:44<fonsinchen>For some reason, if STR_BLACK_CROSS >= 0x9D the rail toolbar is drawn incorrectly.
04:44<fonsinchen>Is that known or even on purpose?
04:51<@petern>you mean if you add strings before STR_BLACK_CROSS?
04:58<Alberth>fonsinchen: I don't understand that, what does "if STR_BLACK_CROSS >= 0x9D" mean, and why would it change value?
04:59<Alberth>perhaps you use OpenGFX?
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05:00<fonsinchen>I add strings before STR_BLACK_CROSS
05:00<fonsinchen>is that prohibited?
05:02<fonsinchen>I mean, I could put them somewhere else but as they are used for the station GUI they fit quite nicely in the region with STR_WAITING_TITLE and so on.
05:02<Alberth>I'd say it should be allowed. Not sure whether moving the black cross without moving the silver cross is allowed.
05:02<fonsinchen>It doesn't matter where the silver cross is for the bug to appear.
05:03<Alberth>the rail toolbar uses the sprites to compute the sizes. You should see the same effect with the town directory window
05:03<fonsinchen>I can try ...
05:04<fonsinchen>yes, it's true
05:04<Alberth>all other windows have hard-coded sizes for all widgets, so there it won't happen.
05:04<Alberth>(except the intro-screen, but that doesn't have a close button)
05:05<fonsinchen>I posted a bug report with a minimal patch to provoke the problem: FS#3030
05:05<Alberth>i just noticed that, will do some experimenting.
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05:14<@Rubidium>what happens when you move it to the front of the language file?
05:17<Alberth>I get "dbg: [sprite] Tried to load character sprite #230 as a normal sprite. Probable cause: NewGRF interference" with a clean trunk, new openttd.cfg, and a very weird toolbar header :)
05:21<@Rubidium>odd... very odd
05:24<Alberth>width/height returned is "width/height = 17x20" which is less than optimal :)
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05:24<Alberth>btw that is when the sprite is at position 13
05:27<@Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/fs3030.diff <- ought to fix it
05:27<Alberth>yes :D I just realized my mistake
05:30<Ammler>openttd: src/pbs.cpp:73: bool TryReserveRailTrack(TileIndex, Track): Assertion `(GetTileTrackStatus(tile, TRANSPORT_RAIL, 0) & TrackToTrackBits(t)) != 0' failed.
05:33<@Rubidium>and?
05:33<@Rubidium>using IS, aren't you?
05:34<Ammler>then, this would be wrong channel :-)
05:35<Ammler>well, we see, if we can reproduce.
05:35<Ammler>on the 150 games we played yet, maybe 2 non-trunk games.
05:36<@Rubidium>true, but PBS is quite well tested by now, so any reported bugs have a higher chance of being due to changes in that area
05:38-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590c3ad0.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #openttd
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: a traceback is generally more helpful than such a general assertion
05:38<Ammler>well
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>the assertion tells you practically nothing
05:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r16795 /trunk/src/ (road_map.cpp road_map.h town_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#3025]: houses wouldn't get build on the map edge.
05:39<Ammler>how do you make a traceback without gdb?
05:40<@Rubidium>crash.dmp
05:40<@Rubidium>but that requires Windows
05:40<@Rubidium>but what's so bad about gdb?
05:40<frosch123>pstack on various *nix
05:40<Ammler>I would say, the assert tells very much, if you run non debug game.
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't really matter what you say ;)
05:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r16796 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix [FS#3030]: Closebox 'X' is a string. (Rubidium)
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05:42<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: "would" ;-)
05:42<Ammler>I didn't :P
05:42<@Rubidium>an assert is no more than: oops something went bad here; it's slightly more useful than a segfault or a FPE
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05:43<Eddi|zuHause>and for a useful backtrace, you don't need a debug build, only an unstripped binary
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05:43<@Rubidium>don't you need at least -g ?
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, what you don't need is all the weird debug hotkeys (like shift being fast forward)
05:46<@Rubidium>as if that really takes any significant CPU
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>no, that is not what i meant
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>for a general user, that wants to catch a backtrace for a bug that he does not know how to reproduce, the game interface should not change
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05:48<Eddi|zuHause>the shift key being the most obvious difference
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>because "general users" use the shift key for other things, like typing in the chat window...
05:50<@Rubidium>"general users" as usually Windows users anyway
05:52<@Rubidium>otherwise ./configure CFLAGS=-g would suffice too I reckon
05:56<Ammler>we can't reproduce it.
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05:57<@Rubidium>and then there's -d desync=1 that dumps all commands, which can be used to replay if needed
05:57<Ammler>we log the docommands anyway
05:59<frosch123>maybe ottdcoop should enable core dumps :)
06:01<Ammler>it was the first assert since a long time.
06:01<Ammler>oh, for*?
06:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r16797 /trunk/src/widgets/dropdown.cpp: -Codechange: Allow drop-down menus for windows with nested widgets.
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06:02<Ammler>http://pastebin.ca/1492546
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i mean the shift key is the reason why i don't run a debug-1-build all the time
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>it is just inconvenient
06:03<Yexo>Ammler: that list can't be used to reproduce a game
06:04<Yexo>you log the date, but not the tick the docommand occured
06:06<Ammler>hehe, we don't have a client, which coould run it that way anyway, have we?
06:07*petern ponders that Ammler-to-English dictionary again...
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: it would be straight-forward to create one...
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: but it needs the tick number
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>and the savegame to start from
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06:44<Dragoon_Jett>Can someone answer a question about the game
06:44<Alberth>someone tends to be busy, but maybe we can help you
06:45<Dragoon_Jett>Har har
06:45-!-Exl [~myself@cp1224652-a.roemd1.lb.home.nl] has joined #openttd
06:45<Alberth>just ask :)
06:45<Dragoon_Jett>So when I build a station and I have the coverage grid on and I am placing near oil or whatever, does the oil or whatever load faster the more blocks of it are in the grid?
06:46<Alberth>no
06:46<Dragoon_Jett>Ok thanks
06:47<Alberth>if the station picker window states the oil is supplied, that's enough
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06:55<Dragoon_Jett>Thanks
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07:03<TrueBrain_>morning
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07:04<Alberth>good afternoon
07:05<Coco-Banana-Man>hi
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07:29<@petern>hmmm
07:29<@petern>don't think pikka uses sound priority
07:29<@petern>which makes implementing it pointless
07:30<frosch123>isn't that a ttd dos thingie?
07:30<@petern>...
07:30<@petern>no
07:31<frosch123>so we also have limited mixing channels?
07:31<@petern>oh, it is
07:31<@petern>but yes
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>"if there are too many sounds playing simultaneously, you can leave this one out"
07:31<@petern>we have 8 channels
07:31<@petern>sounds like the windows version removed that limit
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07:36<@petern>i wonder if it is really unlimited, or just a large limit
07:38<@petern>cos when you get to 150 channels it sounds ... silly
07:38<@petern>whoop, 256 channels
07:38<@petern>on a zoomed out map
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08:04<TrueBrain>stupid tools ... I can't get id3v2 to show me the id3v2 tags in a mp3 .. it only shows me the id3v1 tags :(
08:12<Ammler>www.mp3tag.de
08:12<TrueBrain>I should have added: via CLI in linux
08:12<TrueBrain>they all can add id3v2 tags, but they can't show you ...
08:13<@petern>write one :D
08:14<TrueBrain>lol, as soon as I added a new id3v2 tag, the old ones do show up :p
08:14<TrueBrain>although still not the TXXX ones ...
08:15<TrueBrain>oh, they were removed
08:15<TrueBrain>how lovely :)
08:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r16798 /trunk/src/ (gfx.cpp widget.cpp widget_type.h window.cpp window_gui.h): -Fix [FS#3016]: Added several new widget distances for better widget size computations.
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08:38<Eddi|zuHause>damn, every time i see a black spot on the screen, i get scared now...
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08:43<Eddi|zuHause>feature request: in the timetable settings, i want to set the maximum speed the vehicle is allowed to travel for each order
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>and generally, i want the timetable management patch merged...
08:45<@Rubidium>that requires cargodest to be merged first, cause AFAIR it applied to cargodest
08:46<@petern>uh
08:46<@petern>sure i remember seeing that before cargodest
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>afair he had a trunk version parallel to the cargodest version
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08:48<Eddi|zuHause>and he focused on cargodest in the expectation that it would be merged "soon", but i really don't see that happening anymore
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08:49<@Rubidium>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=39276 <- cargodest patch, much later he released a trunk version
08:49<@Rubidium>and depending for so long on cargodest really destroyed its chances to get in trunk
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08:50<@Rubidium>and then he released patch during the betas, which got obsoleted quite quickly after 0.7 got branched
08:50<@Rubidium>and now it's ancient history already
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08:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but next to cargodest, that is one of the most urgent improvements...
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08:55<@Rubidium>... for 'my' playing style
08:55<@Rubidium>^ you forgot to mention that
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09:00<Eddi|zuHause>for not-only-my-but-not-necessarily-all playing styles
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09:01<Eddi|zuHause>i'm quite sure the coop people could really abuse the timetables :p
09:02<@petern>oh well
09:02<@petern>definitely not then ;p
09:05<Aali>I'm pretty sure they could not use the timetables
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>they said they were up to any challenge :p
09:06<Aali>very rarely do you see any coop game where travel time for a given train is constant
09:06<Chruker>Does something that occurs every 6 months have a fancy *ly-word like monthly, quaterly, yearly have?
09:06-!-TheStarLion [~isaac@user-54459eb5.lns1-c13.telh.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #openttd
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>i hereby challenge them to a network where trains do not stop except when they are scheduled to do so
09:07<Aali>Chruker: biannually
09:07<Chruker>thank you, that was the one
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: isn't that every 2 years?
09:07<Aali>confusingly enough, it could mean that too
09:08<Aali>semiannual is always twice a year though
09:08<Chruker>Adv. 1. biannually - twice a year; "we hold our big sale biannually"
09:08<Aali>while biennial is every two years
09:08<Ammler>why shouldn't timetable not work in coop games?
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09:09<Eddi|zuHause>addendum: it is not allowed to use priority signals
09:10<Aali>Ammler: do you want to micromanage the timetables for 1000+ trains?
09:10<Xaroth>macromanage.
09:10<Xaroth>you use groups ;)
09:10<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: why not disallow signals at all?
09:11<Aali>Xaroth: how does that help?
09:11<Ammler>Aali: where else then on coop you will do that?
09:11<Xaroth>it's a difference between 1 train per timetable or 10 trains per timetable?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that could be fun, but it is problematic at stations
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that is Brianetta's playing style ;)
09:12<Aali>Xaroth: and how do you know that these 10 trains will use the exact same amount of time to travel from point A to point B?
09:12<Xaroth>.. because they use the same route?
09:12<Xaroth>same stations
09:12<Xaroth>same destinations
09:12<Xaroth>same cargo
09:12<Aali>same tracks? not necessarily
09:13<Xaroth>or are you one of those people who connects station A with B with 1 line and lets 1 train run on it?
09:13<Aali>same congestion? no way
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>Aali: no train stops inbetween, so all trains always run on maximum speed the same distance, so they take the same time
09:14<Ammler>he, would be nice challlenge to tell trains ignoring all signals and just drive with timetable.
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that would be fatal on any timing mistake :p
09:15<Aali>one mistake and you crash every single train on that line :P
09:15<Xaroth>Eddi|zuHause: that's what makes it fun
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>no, that's something for when the first attempt with signals actually worked :p
09:20<TrueBrain>I love a bit of clever scripting .... automating things can be SO USEFUL!
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you do 3 songs manually, and then the other 9997 songs by script ;)
09:23<TrueBrain>just I worry a bit about free space ... 1 CD consumes 300 MiB on disk ... 3 albums per GB .. oh well
09:23-!-reldred [~reldred@115.131.208.53] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>wait, you don't have 1TB free?
09:24<TrueBrain>free? No :p
09:24<TrueBrain>available, yes
09:24<TrueBrain>HellaNZB version 0.13, uptime 32 days, 23:07
09:24<TrueBrain>total downloaded: 211300MB, total downloaded nzbs: 161, free disk space: 173409.49MB
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>well, the BOFH version of free ;)
09:25<KingJ>I'm sure the users don't need these files... ;)
09:30<Ammler>what's nzbs?
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09:34<Ammler>using usenet for binaries feels so strange :-)
09:34<Hirundo>Can FONT_HEIGHT_NORMAL change during the game?
09:35<@Rubidium>yes
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09:36<TrueBrain>Ammler: might feel strange, but it is several factors faster than torrent :p
09:37<@petern>usenet abusers :(
09:38<TrueBrain>is the text part of usenet still used in any sane way, I wonder? :)
09:38<KingJ>Depends what kind of torrent you're downloading. Most of the legal ones go very fast
09:38<TrueBrain>KingJ: my usenet gives me 11 MiB/s ... somehow torrents start to stall around 9 MiB/s
09:39<Ammler>ususally, I have speed around 500 kB
09:39<KingJ>I get 360kb/s which is my max
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>i hsve an average speed of 12kb/s, i win
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09:40<Ammler>wow :-o GSM?
09:41<KingJ>GSM is slower than that
09:41<KingJ>GSM would give you ~1kb/s
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>torrents are mainly limited by upload speed
09:42<KingJ>I helped seed a mod release recently, maxed out the 100mbit pipe on both
09:42<Ammler>the torrent community I use, doesn't allow you uploading faster then 512 kB
09:42<TrueBrain>how and why would they limit that?
09:42<TrueBrain>(mostly: how?)
09:42<TrueBrain>they can't limit YOUR upload
09:42<Ammler>by rule and moderators
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: the tracker logs the speed, and kicks out people who disobey
09:43<TrueBrain>if I want to upload at 100 mbit/sec
09:43<TrueBrain>why shouldn't they let me?
09:43<TrueBrain>weird ....
09:43<@petern>why would they limit *upload* speed? :s
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: to give users with smaller pipes a chance to upload something
09:43<@petern>boggle
09:43<TrueBrain>downloading I can understand .. but upload?!
09:43<Ammler>you need a ratio of 1 to stay there.
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09:44<TrueBrain>my ratios hit the 15 on most communitie
09:44<TrueBrain>s
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: on trackers which require a minimum ratio, the "smaller" people need a chance to keep the ratio
09:44<TrueBrain>weird .... do you want people to share or not :s
09:44<TrueBrain>restricting upload is just ... weird ...
09:44<TrueBrain>not my kind of community :)
09:44<@Rubidium>how is a community that requires your ratio to be > 1 survive?
09:45<Ammler>I guess, ALT (anti leech tracker) is something German
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>well, you can still have 500kbit per torrent
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>so you can seed 100 torrents to max your line
09:45<@petern>i only ever used legal torrents where that sort of thing is irrevelant
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09:46<TrueBrain>I configured my torrent client to stop sharing after a ration of 15
09:46<TrueBrain>ration = ratio
09:47<TrueBrain>that allows the "smaller" people to do their job too
09:47<Ammler>mine stops on 3 for the community torrents
09:47<Ammler>and never for public
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: uploading is usually not the only way to keep your ratio up...
09:47<TrueBrain>torrents are very IO expensive
09:47<TrueBrain>small chunks ...
09:47<Hirundo>hmmm... I fail to see how one can change font height during the game, someone care to explain?
09:48<Ammler>TrueBrain: do you download localized stuff?
09:48<@Rubidium>Hirundo: set normal font size to 20 and language to english, start OpenTTD, change language to Chinese
09:48<Ammler>you have rarly much more then 30 downloads per torrent here. :-)
09:48<TrueBrain>Ammler: torrents that hit my client from time to time are distros
09:48<TrueBrain>they go ... fast
09:49<Ammler>yes, those are my public torrents too.
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>IO is not really my problem :p
09:50<TrueBrain>it is mine :p When torrents are running around 50 mbit/s, you notice the IO loss :(
09:51<Ammler>oh well, I would like to have a slower pipe here, but sadly, I have already the min speed for flatrate abos.
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>but there are two kinds of torrent communities... one where the focus is getting out as many copies as fast as possible (those are usually open torrents), and those where only few copies are ever given out, but the torrents should be long lived (those are usually closed ALT communities)
09:53<Ammler>and you need to request what you want, many times not available right away.
09:53<TrueBrain>I never have the latter problem :p Ghehe :)
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to reactivate a torrent after 2 years, the uploader must get a reason to stay that long
09:53<Ammler>for dutch content?
09:54<TrueBrain>(the good thing about being connected to an university network is that you not only have a very high speed, but that there are also closed communities which share over that high speed ... several TiB of data available .. it rarely happens I need something that isn't directly available :p)
09:54-!-KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.17.45.235] has joined #openttd
09:54<TrueBrain>morning KenjiE20
09:55<KenjiE20>af'noon
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>you rarely find decent quality dual language movies on open trackers
09:56<TrueBrain>dual language, as in: english and ... spoken?
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>yes
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>by the time those come out, the "big rush" is long over
09:56<TrueBrain>I don't understand why someone would want to view a movie where not the original actor does the speaking
09:56<TrueBrain>I have absolutely nothing with that
09:56<TrueBrain>(I watch everything in english, rarely with subtitles)
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you...
09:57<TrueBrain>yup: me :)
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>but none of my friends do
09:57<KenjiE20>I generally prefer watching stuff in it's original language as well
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09:58<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really want to watch "Day Watch" in russian ;)
09:59<KenjiE20>Well, this is embarrassing.
09:59<KenjiE20>
09:59<KenjiE20>
09:59<KenjiE20>
09:59<KenjiE20>
09:59<KenjiE20>
09:59<KenjiE20>
09:59<KenjiE20>
09:59<KenjiE20>
09:59<KenjiE20>Firefox is having trouble recovering your windows and tabs.
09:59<KenjiE20>urg
09:59<TrueBrain>.....
09:59<KenjiE20>but lol
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>but there's really no point watching Borat or Brüno in german ;)
09:59<KenjiE20>crappy formatting in that paste
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>your client is shit if it does not warn you "you are pasting 10 lines"
10:00<KenjiE20>yes, yes it is
10:00<TrueBrain>hmm .. I have the id_dsa, but not the id_dsa.pub
10:00<TrueBrain>how did that happen ...
10:00*KenjiE20 is waiting for another client to go from rc to stable
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10:03<Ammler>shouldn't be a problem to make a public one from the private, is it?
10:03<TrueBrain>it isn't a problem at all, I just wonder how the .pub got lost
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10:04<Ammler>moved instead copied :-)
10:04<TrueBrain>via linux, to a remote system?
10:04<TrueBrain>I have NO idea how I would do that :p
10:04<@petern>smv
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10:05<Eddi|zuHause>mount -t sshfs?
10:05<TrueBrain>not something I use
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10:26<Dragoon_Jett>When you click on your vehicles beside them there is a number and under that a circle, what does the circles colour mean and the number?
10:29-!-MizardX [~MizardX@81-224-42-23-no80.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #openttd
10:30<Yexo>are you talking about the vehicle list?
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10:30<Dragoon_Jett>So you have a train station
10:30<Dragoon_Jett>and you click on it
10:30<Yexo>in that case the number is the vehicle number, and the colour is about the profit
10:30<Dragoon_Jett>And in the bottom right
10:30<Dragoon_Jett>Oh ok
10:31<Dragoon_Jett>So uh whats the specific colours profits
10:31<Yexo>I'm not sure what the exact values are, but I think < 0 = red, 0-20.000 = orange and 20.000+ = green (all in pound)
10:31<Dragoon_Jett>The only colours I have seen is grey and yellow
10:32<Yexo>grey = younger then 2 years, so no colour assigned yet
10:33<Dragoon_Jett>Thanks
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11:20<[wito]>Yexo: Isn't the limit 10k£?
11:21<[wito]>(that is, the 100% min-profit ranking value cutoff)
11:21<Yexo>in that case that's likely, as I said, I'm not sure on the exact numbers
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>hm... anyone know an easy way to parse an XML file? (python, or something)
11:22<[wito]>Eddi|zuHause: I know several easy ways
11:22<[wito]>and a couple of mind-bendingly complicated ones. :P
11:22<[wito]>Small-footprint or large-footprint?
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>like for <each entry that contains a <name> tag that matches "string">: do something with this entry
11:24<[wito]>hmm
11:24<[wito]>well, you basically have two options
11:24<[wito]>1) Build a DOM tree (most languages have a method for doing this) and do some XPath magick
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>basically, going linearly through the file, and doing something in case of finding anything interesting
11:24<[wito]>2) Set up an event-based parser and burn through that file at an ungodly speed
11:25<[wito]>The first approach is (arguably) simpler; the latter is faster
11:25<[wito]>And if you are planning to go through the entire file anyway; the second approach might be the best
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i want to go through the entire file, do something with the interesting parts, and then throw it away
11:26<[wito]>Well, I'm not entirely sure how that would be done in python; but in C it's generally a matter of handing a number of callbacks to a libxml2 function and then telling it to parse
11:27<[wito]>in all likelyhood, python has a similar approach available
11:27<[wito]>additionally, the python standard library might contain some class named xmlParser or some variant thereof; intended for subclassing to implement the callbacks directly on the object responsible for parsing
11:28<Alberth>there are xml in the standardlib of python
11:28<Alberth>+libs
11:28<[wito]>or you might have to create a class with some specificically named methods and hand that to an instance of xmlParser (or whatever name the class has) and implement the callbacks as such
11:29<Alberth>variant 2 is called SAX parser
11:29<[wito]>Alberth: yes, but what is the python class called?
11:29<[wito]>SAXParser?
11:29<[wito]>SAXXMLParser?
11:30<TrueBrain>xml.sax
11:30<TrueBrain>or xml.minidom
11:31<[wito]>well, I suppose that should've been rather obvious
11:31<@Rubidium>xpath?
11:31<TrueBrain>I dislike sax, assumes too much :p
11:31<[wito]>TrueBrain: What assumptions in particular are you referring to?
11:31<@Rubidium>or was it xquery?
11:31<TrueBrain>well, you need to make parsers, which parse a given blob of XML data
11:31<Alberth>xml.sax.xmlreader seems a nice starting point http://docs.python.org/library/xml.sax.reader.html?highlight=xml#module-xml.sax.xmlreader
11:31<TrueBrain>I dislike that approach :) Only works if you know 100% sure a given format is always the same :p
11:32<[wito]>TrueBrain: That's a programmers assumption
11:32<[wito]>not a parsers assumption
11:32<TrueBrain>DOM at least doesn't assume a single thing
11:32<[wito]>TrueBrain: You still have to choose how to explore the DOM
11:32<TrueBrain>yup, but there you can much easier catch changes/problems
11:33<[wito]>TrueBrain: I don't see how
11:33<TrueBrain>after working with both for days, I do :p
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>so... i'm currently at "xml=minidom.parse('test.xml')"
11:33<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: welcome to libxml2 hell ;)
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>let's see if i can achieve anything from this point...
11:34<TrueBrain>for node in xml.childNodes[0].childNodes: print node :p
11:34<TrueBrain>(assuming you have 1 parent tree)
11:34<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: elementTree is said to be simpler to use.
11:34<[wito]>Indeed
11:34<[wito]>TrueBrain: You always have 1 parent tree
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>TooMuchInformationSimultaneouslyException
11:35<TrueBrain>[wito]: says who?
11:35<[wito]>TrueBrain: The XML specc, that's who
11:35<TrueBrain>and what happens when you violate those specs?
11:35<[wito]>Every element except the root element has exactly one parent
11:35<[wito]>TrueBrain: then any well-behaved parser will throw an absoulte shit-fit
11:35<TrueBrain>libxml2 parses it
11:36<TrueBrain>this should be invalid: <root>..</root><root2></root2>
11:36<TrueBrain>but it happens
11:36<[wito]>TrueBrain: And when it does, libxml2 gets very, very angry
11:36<TrueBrain>nope, it is accepted
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>>>> xml.childNodes
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>[<xml.dom.minidom.DocumentType instance at 0xb7a5e04c>, <DOM Element: tv at 0xb7
11:36<[wito]>TrueBrain: Really?
11:36<TrueBrain>try it
11:36<[wito]>TrueBrain: I'd need to see a test case for it.
11:36<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: try using xquery to find the nodes you want; that's meant for searching in xml
11:37<[wito]>Rubidium: XQuery is often times overkill; XPath is a *lot* simpler
11:37<[wito]>and can easily do what he needs
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>this is about what i expected when asking for xml...
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>damnit...
11:37<[wito]>Eddi|zuHause: Heh.
11:37<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: 2 things you need to know about minidom: getElementsByTagName() and getAttribute()
11:38<[wito]>Eddi|zuHause: try irc.freenode.net#xml
11:38<TrueBrain>and to get text out a text-node:
11:38<[wito]>Lots of very talented people all up in there.
11:38<TrueBrain> text = ''
11:38<TrueBrain> for n in node.childNodes:
11:38<TrueBrain> if n.nodeType == Node.TEXT_NODE: text += n.data.encode('utf-8')
11:38<TrueBrain> return text
11:39<TrueBrain>(one of the things I hate about XML ... text doesn't have to be in a single node :()
11:39<Alberth>shouldn't that be decode() ?
11:39<TrueBrain>no, I encode it to Python universal bla :p (wchar)
11:39<[wito]>TrueBrain: Some DOM parsers have text-node normalization methods
11:40-!-Brianetta [~brian@client-86-0-123-9.nrth.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd
11:40<TrueBrain>the DOM parsers in browsers are the worst :(
11:40<TrueBrain>IE and FF handle things COMPLETELY different :(
11:41<[wito]>ya
11:41<[wito]>JavaScript DOM parsers can be pretty bad.
11:41<[wito]>Well
11:41<[wito]>A JS DOM parser wouldn't be so bad; I suppose
11:41<[wito]>but a JS DOM *libraries*
11:41*[wito] shudders
11:42<TrueBrain>Alberth: I gave up trying to understand when to do decode() and encode() :p It isn't always as sane as I would hope ...
11:43<Alberth>ok :) the docs namely say the opposite: "...in a Unicode context, encoding converts a Unicode object to a plain string using a particular character set encoding..."
11:43<TrueBrain>Alberth: ah, yes, 'n.date' is already in wchar
11:43<TrueBrain>Alberth: ah, yes, 'n.data' is already in wchar
11:43<TrueBrain>typing is hard :p
11:44<Alberth>so no encode or decode should be needed :)
11:44<TrueBrain>in this case I need it to be a printable string, to avoid encodes later on in the process ... mostly because Python can be REALLY stupid :(
11:44<TrueBrain>let me tell you this:
11:44<TrueBrain>fd = os.popen('echo "' + track['title'] + '" | iconv -f "UTF-8" -t "ASCII//TRANSLIT"')
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>http://nopaste.php-q.net/248222 <- that's what i have now (that's the way i go through every tree...)
11:44<TrueBrain>Python refuses to do a TRANSLIT
11:45<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: use SAX
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>of course it dies with UnicodeEncodeError
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11:46<TrueBrain>Alberth: and the encoding is not needed if I would have written: text = u'' ;) :p
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11:46<TrueBrain>I think there things went wrong, and I got annoyed by the endless unicode shit :p
11:47<Alberth>I never used unicode, but I am afraid one day I have to
11:47<TrueBrain>avoid it as long as possible :)
11:47<Hirundo>MAX_LENGTH_COMPANY_NAME_PIXELS cannot be relied upon with variable font size, can it?
11:47<TrueBrain>and if you start using it, make sure your shell is also UTF ready ......
11:47<[wito]>Alberth: The point at which you "have to" is the point at which everything everywhere is UTF-8. :P
11:48<[wito]>And that is a point to which we are getting rather quickly
11:48<TrueBrain>(my shell is NOT utf-8 ready, and it gives VERY nice effects when working with it ... :'( )
11:48<[wito]>This, as it were, would be a good thing.
11:48<TrueBrain>[wito]: CIFS still is not utf-8 ready, so ... :p
11:48<TrueBrain>(Stupid windows)
11:48<Alberth>except we will never have just the utf-8 encoding only
11:49<[wito]>Alberth: Nah, true.
11:49<[wito]>A lot of stuff will continue to use UTF-16 internally
11:49<[wito]>(It is, apparently, faster)
11:49<TrueBrain>btw, other stupid fact about UTF: the iconv line above, only works when you are in UTF-8 .. else it doesn't know how to TRANSLIT
11:50<TrueBrain>(and I ask you why it matters for a conversion tool in what locale your shell is?)
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>the real question is, why is '\xf6' part of an utf-8 string?
11:50<[wito]>hmm
11:50<[wito]>that doesn't sound right at all
11:51<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: what would be wrong with it? :P
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>the file is utf-8-encoded and contains an utf-8-ö
11:51<Alberth>Hirundo: it seems it is only used as a max width of some query window (in the 30 seconds I looked at it)
11:52<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: does it hang on your 'print'?
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>so the parser converts the utf-8-ö to \xf6 and declares the resulting string as utf-8?
11:52-!-fonsinchen [~alve@BAE9737.bae.pppool.de] has joined #openttd
11:52<[wito]>TrueBrain: A "good" UTF-8-string shouldn't contain xF6
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:52<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: is your shell utf-8?
11:52<Alberth>[wito]: all asian countries will use a different encoding
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:52<[wito]>Alberth: Different from one another, too. :P
11:52<TrueBrain>is your locale utf-8? :)
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:53<TrueBrain>that mostly gives me the problems, as when printing the utf-8 string is converted to something the stdout supports (or what python things)
11:53<TrueBrain>given all kinds of crap :p
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>and the file says <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
11:53<[wito]>Eddi|zuHause: The character in question is a latin-1 character
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't know if anybody listens to that...
11:53<[wito]>Eddi|zuHause: I'd run that file thru'
11:53<[wito]>lint or something
11:53<[wito]>because it sounds as if it's actually latin-1
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>i have the file open in kate, and there it is a properly encoded utf-8-ö
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>so the parser mistreats it somehow
11:54<[wito]>Eddi|zuHause: You are certain that the file is UTF-8?
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:54<[wito]>If so; it appears as if the parser is trying to convert it to latin-1
11:54<[wito]>(if the resulting stream contains an 0xF6, anyway)
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11:56<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: either way: welcome to the utf-8 hell :)
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>00000010 22 3e 44 72 65 69 20 4b c3 b6 63 68 65 20 77 6f |">Drei K..che wo| <--- this is the section of the raw file
11:56<TrueBrain>two hells you entered in a short period of time .. nice ;)
11:56<[wito]>that's UTF-8, all right
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>(Pdb) node.data
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>u'Drei K\xf6che wollen
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>this is what python makes of it
11:56<TrueBrain>when?
11:56<[wito]>and that's latin-1
11:56<TrueBrain>(where do you print that?)
11:57<[wito]>I do believe this is a python issue, rather than an UTF- or XML- issue
11:58<[wito]>What the precise issue is, however, I can only speculate at
11:58<TrueBrain>I read and write UTF-8 via minidom without any problem, so it is most likely a user issue ;) :p
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>i told you every line i wrote...
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>minidom.parse('filename')
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>and then the recursive function i pasted
11:59<TrueBrain>btw, what is your sys.getdefaultencoding()?
12:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r16799 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: When drawing articulated road vehicles in the vehicle details window, draw as many parts as the window fits instead of always up to a vehicle length of 80/8.
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>"ascii" it says
12:00<Alberth>that should give some trouble :)
12:01<[wito]>Indeed
12:01<TrueBrain>all my systems always give ascii as return
12:01<TrueBrain>I still wonder what Python means with it :p
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>i never changed anything with that...
12:03<TrueBrain>lol, here I get an expat error when I try to load a utf-8 char :p
12:04<TrueBrain>stupid kwrite :)
12:07<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: if node.nodeType == 3: print node.data <- works fine
12:07<TrueBrain>(nodeType 3 is 'textNode')
12:07<TrueBrain>was too lazy to import the enum :p
12:07<TrueBrain>works fine as: it prints the utf-8 char fine
12:07<TrueBrain>problem about: print node
12:08<TrueBrain>is that it becomes: print str(node)
12:09<TrueBrain>and I suggest not to worry how Python internally stores your string
12:09<TrueBrain>(which happens to be \xf6 :p)
12:11<TrueBrain>str(node) btw always converts to getdefaultencoding, which is ascii as we just noticed, which can't convert \xf6 (well .. dah :p)
12:12<TrueBrain>I guess minidom has a nice bug in __str__ routine ... "" + node.data instead of u"" + node.data :p
12:12<TrueBrain>then str(node) would go to utf8 ... oh well :)
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12:13<blobbo>Hey all.
12:13<blobbo>I'm stuck on a server with a jerk who keeps blocking my network with pieces of rail. Any way I can deal with this? The admin doesn't seem to be responsive and/or present
12:14<TrueBrain>then you are a bit out of luck :'(
12:15<blobbo>Shucks.
12:15<blobbo>I hate that. I'm a nice guy and I just like playing little construction games. What's wrong with people?!
12:16<TrueBrain>I wonder that myself every day ..
12:16<TrueBrain>I guess OpenTTD does need a player-rating system :p
12:16<@Rubidium>blobbo: ask that to the people that... uhm... steal, kill, ...
12:17<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: and how do you intend to do that?
12:17<TrueBrain>I showed you plans for that a few times over the past few years :p
12:17<TrueBrain>(damn, we are getting OLD!)
12:17<Alberth>yes, that happens all by itself
12:18<TrueBrain>:'(
12:18<TrueBrain>STOP THE HURTING!
12:18<TrueBrain>oeh, food
12:18<TrueBrain>bbl
12:18<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: apparantly there was something with those plans that caused them not to be implemented
12:18<@Rubidium>probably the "it doesn't really help" problem; it might stop a few, but others won't be stopped
12:18<blobbo>I'd love it if there was a vote system where people can deal with it themselves when the admins aren't present
12:19<Alberth>until the bad boys vote against you
12:19<@Rubidium>blobbo: so A and B are playing nice, then C joins and starts annoying you -> you vote C from the server. Now C is mad and joins 3 times and votes A and B from the server
12:19<@Rubidium>the ONLY was is just to AVOID servers WITHOUT admins
12:20<blobbo>hrm, I suppose.
12:20<blobbo>I'll have to be more careful about joining games.
12:20<blobbo>I haven't played in a year or so - kudos on all the improvements!
12:20<blobbo>Alas, I'm afraid I've quickly remembered why I stopped! :(
12:21<@Rubidium>something that can't be solved by writing lines of code...
12:21<TrueBrain>[18:18] <Rubidium> probably the "it doesn't really help" problem; it might stop a few, but others won't be stopped <- nope, it was the: I don't have time to do it, and nobody else cares enough to do it
12:23<TrueBrain>my latest draft was pretty solid when it comes down to fair-play users
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12:23<TrueBrain>(central authorization system and stuff :p)
12:24<TrueBrain>but there are simply not enough online players to put all that effort in it :)
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13:06<Eddi|zuHause>so... they (frenoode/python.de) told me minidom is shit, i should use xml.etree.ElementTree
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13:29<fonsinchen>You might want to have a look at FS#54
13:29<fonsinchen>I have posted a patch that cleans up the smallmap and makes the code much more understandable
13:29<fonsinchen>and it makes the smallmap zoomable
13:29<fonsinchen>(and it solves all the problems mentioned earlier in the thread)
13:30<fonsinchen>Unfortunately it's 23kb, but a lot of that are comments.
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13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r16800 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 29 changes by ww9980
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: galician - 108 changes by Condex
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by Roujin
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: indonesian - 3 changes by prof
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 5 changes by telk5093
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13:57<tdev>hi all
13:58<tdev>my ottd patch is 3 years old and being actively worked on :D
13:58<[wito]>tdev: fantastic ^_^
13:58<[wito]>But what does it *do*?
13:58<tdev>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/54
13:59<[wito]>tdev: so that's "Nothing yet?" ;)
13:59<[wito]>Nah, I keed.
13:59<[wito]>Lovely ^_^
14:01<[wito]>so is cargodest dead?
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14:02<tdev>[wito]: i REALLY dont hope so
14:03<tdev>look at my patch, its 3 years old and still not dead. cargodest is really young ;)
14:03<[wito]>Thing is, cargodist is nice and all; but I like cargodest better :(
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14:46<TrueBrain>lalalalalalaaaaa
14:49<@Rubidium>tdev: it's quite likely not the same patch it was 3 years ago; it's rewritten a few times IIRC
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15:00<tdev>Rubidium: yes, but i hope i contributed at least a tiny tiny bit ;)
15:00<TrueBrain>the number of the bug report! :p :p
15:01-!-TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:01<Alberth>and the subject :p
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15:03<PeterT>!seen yorick
15:04<Ammler>[20:03] <[wito]> Thing is, cargodist is nice and all; but I like cargodest better <-- what's the difference?
15:05<PeterT>lol
15:05<TrueBrain>'i' vs 'e'
15:05<TrueBrain>so much is obvious
15:05<KingJ>Cargodest made it easier for me to see passenger flows than dist
15:06<KingJ>That might have changed in the later builds with the new map however
15:06<TrueBrain>cargodest alone is almost unplayable
15:06<TrueBrain>(well .. to make a profit, that is)
15:06<KingJ>I did hear about that bug
15:06<TrueBrain>what bug?
15:06<KingJ>I've had to abandon my current cargodist game though, it's getting a bit unplayable due to the amount of vehicles i've got
15:07<KingJ>And by extension, the large network
15:07<Ammler>for me, the whole dest thing is way too complicated.
15:07<TrueBrain>it also requires another economy model
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15:07<KingJ>Cargo/pax destination is what I always wanted to see in TTD, it encourages network building rather than just A/B routes
15:08<Ammler>KingJ: is that really so?
15:08<Ammler>as you still need a route until it gets effect
15:09<KingJ>Previously, i'd only build A/B routes. With cargodist/dest I build multistop lines
15:09<TrueBrain>still it doesn't really encourage it in any way :)
15:10<Ammler>well, something it makes easier, you don't need to make tranfer orders anymore.
15:10<TrueBrain>that is very true
15:12<TrueBrain>but managing a network becomes impossible ... too many cargo :p
15:12<KingJ>Nah, not impossible
15:13<KingJ>I only do it for passengers however, I don't bother with a goods or mail network
15:13<Alberth>Does anybody know what algorithm they use for cargo dest generation?
15:13<Ammler>he, imagine ECS with cargodest, might be fun ;.-)
15:13<TrueBrain>I tried a pax only network with cargodest and cargodist .. both failed horrible multiple times already :p
15:14<TrueBrain>Alberth: I believe cargodest doesn't really have an algorithm, and cargodist uses MPF or what is it called
15:15<Ammler>currently, it is impossible to make a coop cargodist game, nobody there is interested.
15:15<Alberth>The "Mega Piraten Festijn!" :p
15:15<TrueBrain>Alberth: LOL!
15:15<TrueBrain>Ammler: too bad, I might have enjoyed that
15:15<TrueBrain>Alberth: MCF
15:15<TrueBrain>http://wiki.openttd.org/Cargodist
15:16<Alberth>ah a wiki page. Thank you !
15:16<TrueBrain>cargodist is about the distribution, cargodest is about the network, or at least, that is what I gathered from it
15:16<TrueBrain>Alberth: it should have been the first thing you looked for :p
15:16<TrueBrain>what Celestar told me, cargodest and cargodist are 2 completely different things, where both could be integrated on eachother, but ... htere it got a bit fuzzy :p
15:17<Alberth>true :)
15:17<Ammler>well, at least dist doesn't need boost.
15:17<[wito]>Ammler: I play a lot of ECS with CargoDest
15:17<TrueBrain>Ammler: requiring boost was a big mistake :p
15:17<[wito]>on r15710M :P
15:17<TrueBrain>(in my PERSONAL opinion, to make that perfectly clear :))
15:18<Ammler>oh, indeed, you need to clarify that ;-)
15:18<TrueBrain>Alberth: http://wiki.openttd.org/Cargodest <- cargodest, at bottom a VERY small talk about how it works
15:19<Ammler>and the trunk in dest time was very desync and current trunk is just damn stable.
15:19<Alberth>cargodist seems to use a linear decreasing function with distance
15:21<Alberth>and cargodest is really short: "(how OpenTTD picks destinations for cargos) " :)
15:21<TrueBrain>yup
15:21<TrueBrain>but okay .. cargodest alone makes the game not really fun to play (Again, in my personal opinion), and needs something like cargodist to functional normally
15:22*Alberth should try a game of cargodist soon
15:23<TrueBrain>Ammler: yeah, Ammler, build us a carogdist coop server :p
15:23<Ammler>it is running at same address, as cargodest was running
15:23<TrueBrain>yeah ... and I played so much cargodest on a coop server, I know exactly where that is
15:23<TrueBrain>lol
15:23<TrueBrain>silly Ammler
15:24<Ammler>dev.openttdcoop.org:3981
15:24<TrueBrain>What is your phonenumber? It is in the phone book! What is your name? It is next to my number!
15:24<TrueBrain>:p
15:24<Ammler>:-P
15:25<Ammler>:-)
15:25<TrueBrain>git dirs without repacks are INCREDIBLE slow :(
15:26<Alberth>I read that at #mercurial, I think :p
15:26-!-DephNet[Paul] [~paul@host86-140-69-225.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:26<Ammler>it runs btw. with the last version from compile farm
15:26<TrueBrain>which is? :p
15:26<Ammler>which has a M in the rev name.
15:27<Ammler>[21:27] <Tycoon> Ammler: Game version is g714743faM-cargodist
15:27<TrueBrain>somehow I think Ammler don't want us to join ...
15:27<TrueBrain>do you also have an url to the binaries?
15:27-!-DephNet[Paul] [~paul@host86-140-69-225.range86-140.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
15:27<Ammler>#openttdcoop.dev
15:27<TrueBrain>weird url :p
15:28<Ammler>http://mz.openttdcoop.org/bundles/cargodist/g714743faM-cargodist/
15:28<TrueBrain>thank you :)
15:28<TrueBrain>bah, my libicui18n is wrong version
15:28<TrueBrain>stupid icu
15:29-!-williham [~wito@25.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #openttd
15:29<TrueBrain>oh well .. no cargodist today :) Tnx anyway Ammler
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15:30<Ammler>since that ciu thing
15:30<Ammler>I can't use compile farm binaries, either.
15:30<TrueBrain>every library that goes to a new version is annoying
15:30<TrueBrain>it takes a while ..
15:30<TrueBrain>expat was a problem a while back too
15:30<Ammler>earlier, I just had to symlink some libs.
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15:31<Alberth>good night all
15:31<TrueBrain>night Alberth
15:31<PeterT>night
15:32<Ammler>he? good night.
15:33<Alberth>Ammler: I don't know how to set vertical resize step dynamically in nested widgets atm, and I don't feel like thinking deeply about that problem, so I quit now :)
15:34<TrueBrain>hehe
15:34<TrueBrain>don't hurt your brain too much ;)
15:34<Ammler>ok :-)
15:34<Ammler>is that a bug from Hirundo?
15:35<Alberth>no, it's what you get when you want to get rid of fixed font and sprite sizes.
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15:37<Alberth>I can compute the size, but I cannot inject the resize step in the computation easily
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15:40<Ammler>he, all the water industries I connected died.
15:42<PeterT>i dont know if this is the place to ask.......once i download autopilot, where do i put the files?
15:42<Ammler>same dir as openttd
15:43<Ammler>well, we have a folder called autopilot in openttd
15:43<PeterT>ok
15:43<Ammler>and then we copy the bundle to that folder
15:43<PeterT>i figured it out, but dont i download with svn?
15:43<Ammler>cp bundle/* autopilot/ -Rf
15:43<Ammler>so you can make openttd with running server
15:44<Ammler>PeterT: you should use AP+
15:44<PeterT>im download whatever this is: http://svn.openttdcoop.org/tools/autopilot/
15:44<Ammler>do you have windows server?
15:45<PeterT>OS? no
15:45<Ammler>then use branch AP+
15:46<Ammler>http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/Autopilot/ap+
15:46<PeterT>so this is what i have, im in tortoise SVN, and im about to download autopilot/branches/ap+ into my ottd directory
15:46<PeterT>correct?
15:46<Ammler>yes
15:47<TrueBrain>Windows? No. Tortoise SVN? WHAT?
15:47<PeterT>ok
15:47<Ammler>hmm, indeed :-)
15:47<TrueBrain>inconsistancy detected
15:47<TrueBrain>aborting
15:47<TrueBrain>desync
15:47<TrueBrain>*KILL*
15:48<Ammler>afaik ap+ doesn't work with windows
15:48<Ammler>and non-ap+ doesn't work with openttd trunk
15:48<PeterT>am i doing it right or not!?
15:48<Ammler>but not sure about the later, as it is a year ago.
15:48<Ammler>is your OS windows?
15:49<PeterT>windows vista, yes
15:49<TrueBrain>lalala
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15:50<Ammler>well, you can try, I just have no idea about, but something I know is, you need to convert openttd to console tool
15:50<Ammler>I would say, it is easier to setup a linux box.
15:53<PeterT>ok
15:56<PeterT>ok, i downloaded ap+ to a folder called "autopilot" in my openttd 0.7.0 install directory
15:57<PeterT>Ammler: what do i do now?
15:58<Ammler>:-D you won't give up?
15:58<PeterT>why would i give up?
15:58<Ammler>because it doesn't work on windows?
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15:58<PeterT>why, whats different from openttdcoop?
15:58<PeterT>why does nothing work on windows?!
15:59<TrueBrain>because Windows is a piece of crap?
15:59<Tefad>PeterT: ask Steve Ballmer
15:59<PeterT>ugh, so ottdcoop is on linux?
15:59<Tefad>huh? no?
15:59<Tefad>i thought ottdcoop was just a superset of ottd
15:59<Tefad>certain GRFs
16:00<TrueBrain>ottdcoop is a community group :p
16:00<KenjiE20>ottdcoop is a style of play undertaken by a group of people
16:00<KenjiE20>that's about all there is to it :P
16:00<Tefad>well yeah, but there's a way to configure openttd to be ottdcoop compatible ; )
16:00<TrueBrain>they only release cool tools :p
16:00<Ammler>openttdcoop are the best players of openttd
16:00<PeterT>but the servers, run on autopilot, so someone must have linus?
16:00<TrueBrain>Tefad: euh .. lol?
16:00<KenjiE20>slightly biased there Ammler :D
16:01<Ammler>shht
16:01<TrueBrain>PeterT: the games they host are hosted on linux, yes
16:01<TrueBrain>but most developers here have a non-windows machine
16:01<KenjiE20>though anything that can run expect should technically be able to run autopilot
16:01<TrueBrain>(most, not all, there are a few who still use windows :p)
16:01<KenjiE20>afai understand it
16:01<PeterT>oh thats too bad, I really liked autopilot
16:02<Ammler>I guess, the problem on windows are the addtional tools which are needed
16:02<Ammler>tcllib something, iirc
16:02<PeterT>can those be obtained?
16:02<PeterT>for windows
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16:03<TrueBrain>try it :)
16:03<Ammler>activetcl
16:03<KenjiE20>http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tcllib+windows
16:04<PeterT>thanks
16:04<PeterT>whatever, not worth the trouble
16:05<Ammler>yes, indeed
16:05<PeterT>:)
16:07<Ammler>hmm, what's about www.myottd.net
16:08-!-lewymati [~lewymati@aejl223.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd
16:09<@Rubidium>Ammler: what about it?
16:10<Ammler>no alternative anymore, also dead. it seems.
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16:10<Ammler>was a cool idea, anyway.
16:11<Nite_Owl>Hello all
16:11<Ammler>sali Nite_Owl
16:11<@Rubidium>Ammler: but it resulted in lots of 'dead' servers
16:11<Chruker>Are drive-through busstations more efficient that the original terminus one?
16:11<Nite_Owl>Hello Ammler
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16:12<Chruker>efficient = can handle more busses before they form a conga line
16:12<Ammler>Rubidium: yeah, I know, I had troubles to shutdown my own test server there.
16:12<Ammler>I stopped it and after some time, it was running again.
16:12<Nite_Owl>articulated vehicles can only use drive throughs - other than that it is a matter of opinion
16:13<Ammler>well, it is faster, as the RV doesn't need to turn around.
16:14<Chruker>My AI seems to hit the conga-line at around 90 vehicles in a town with 19 stops
16:15<Chruker>I'll try to see how it handles it with the drive-through ones
16:17<Nite_Owl>for passengers and mail within a town then drive through stops are more efficent
16:17<Nite_Owl>plus they do not take up land that a building could be on
16:18<Nite_Owl>freight is a bit of a toss up with non articulated vehicles
16:20<Chruker>The allow-building-of-drivethrough-statios-on-town-road is off by default, isnt it?
16:21<Nite_Owl>I believe so but will not swear to it
16:22<Nite_Owl>I have had it on for so long
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18:00<mikk36>hey
18:01<mikk36>q: what is the maximum resolution that the game allowes itself to be set ?
18:01<@Rubidium>65535x65535
18:01<mikk36>thank you
18:01<@Rubidium>it's unlikely that your OS etc. does support that though
18:01<mikk36>heh, yeah
18:02<mikk36>though, has anyone ever tried ?
18:02<@Rubidium>sdl crashes
18:02<@Rubidium>-> http://bugzilla.libsdl.org/show_bug.cgi?id=759
18:02<mikk36>tried to write a display adapter for some virtual pc or smth
18:02<mikk36>a display driver*
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>smithers?
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>he can write a display adapter for a virtual pc?
18:04<@Rubidium>some virtual pc? I only know one
18:04<mikk36>i mean that maybe one could modify/create a driver for using in a virtual pc or so in such way that you could increase the resolution to silly sizes
18:04<mikk36>that it would generate the desktop
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>that is called virtual desktop, has nothing to do with virtual pc
18:05<@Rubidium>@calc 65535x65535/1048576
18:05<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
18:05<mikk36>right, thoughts are messed up a bit :)
18:05<@Rubidium>@calc 65535*65535/1048576
18:05<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 4095.87500095
18:05<@Rubidium>you only need that amount of memory for 8 bits video
18:05<mikk36>in MB ?
18:05<@Rubidium>in MB
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>that is pretty much exactly 4GB
18:06<mikk36>not possible with a virtual adapter ?
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>might vary from manufacturer's GB though ;)
18:06<mikk36>ofc it would be awfully slow to process :P
18:07<@Rubidium>now imagine you're double buffering
18:07<mikk36>yup
18:07<mikk36>slam, 8GB
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>but it'll be a while until the people start complaining again "i can only resize it to half my 52nd screen"
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18:09<@Rubidium>even worse... "it won't display my 2048x2048 map"
18:09<mikk36>um, what is the fastest video transportation cable out there ?
18:09<mikk36>i'm just checking that DisplayPort has 8.64Gbps data rate
18:09<@Rubidium>fibre optics
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>nothing that using VGA cables in parallel won't handle :p
18:10<mikk36>lol
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18:10<@Rubidium>*if* you would've asked it about 18 months ago I could've asked how NHK pushes 24 Gbps to their video system
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>well... if you octo-sli your graphics cards, nothing prevents you from putting another 8 screens on each card
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>means you have 64 screens ;)
18:11<mikk36>8 on each ?
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18:21<PeterT>@seen yorick
18:21<@DorpsGek>PeterT: yorick was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 6 hours, 27 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <yorick> the water looks nice on the first one
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>ever noticed how difficult it is to tell petert and petern apart?
18:24<PeterT>lol
18:24<PeterT>im not a mod
18:24<PeterT>thats how
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>right, you should be banned for being an imposter
18:25*petern bans Eddi|zuHause for highlighting
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>well... i had to say it
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>it happened to me twice within minutes...
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>once in the forum and once here...
18:27<PeterT>!rainbow hi
18:28-!-Coco|Zusi is now known as Coco-Banana-Man
18:35<PeterT>whats the name of the airport in amsterdam?
18:35<PeterT>Schipol?
18:35<PeterT>is that how its spelled?
18:35<@Rubidium>in or near Amsterdam?
18:35<PeterT>in
18:36<KenjiE20>http://lmgtfy.com/?q=amsterdam+airport
18:36<PeterT>KenjiE20, i didnt have firefox open, i had xchat open
18:36<@Rubidium>KenjiE20: but that results the one NEAR amsterdam
18:37*KenjiE20 shrugs
18:37<@Rubidium>though I'm having my doubts whether Bijlmermeer is regarded as an airport or not
18:37<@Rubidium>El Al had a cargo route to Bijlmermeer
18:38<PeterT>the name was something like Schipol
18:39<@Rubidium>that's a quite common typo; even wikipedia redirects to the right page
18:39<PeterT>ok, got it
18:39<PeterT>Schiphol
18:39<PeterT>Schiphol Int'l Amsterdam
18:39<@Rubidium>AMS / EHAM is so much easier to remember
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18:41<@Rubidium>though why would you be interested in that?
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18:55<Chruker>weird, some of these drive-throug station tiles show a different city as road owner and authority. The surrounding regular towntiles have the right town.
18:55<@Rubidium>authority is based on the distance to town, ownership based on who build the damn road
19:00<@Rubidium>not to mention that a drive through road stop can have 3 owners, or even 4 but then you're in the infrastructure sharing world
19:00<Chruker>hmm, I just checked what owner and authority some roadtiles have, and after the placement of the drive through station those tiles had changed their roadowner and authority
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19:01<@Rubidium>road owner shouldn't change
19:02<@Rubidium>hmm, never mind... it could
19:03<Chruker>But also authority?
19:03<@Rubidium>the authority is linked to the town-id stored in the map array
19:03<@Rubidium>so it the town that owns the road bit
19:03<@Rubidium>for stations there's not enough space to store the town id, so it just 'guesses' it
19:05<@Rubidium>for a player it doesn't really matter anyways
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19:28<Chruker>It just seems very weird that a tile changes authority when you build a drive-through station or demolish the tile.
19:29<Chruker>Also the town it changes to doesnt seem to mind (I dont get a rating).
19:29<Sacro>(>'_')># waffles?
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20:14<nicfer>one question, would fix cargo destinations / cargo distribution the transfers trouble?
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20:15<nicfer>I mean, I have troubles with them
20:16<nicfer>(with the transfers)
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20:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes, cargodest would obsolete transfer orders
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>but because it makes all orders inherently transfer, some other trobles appear
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>especially the overestimation of transfer credits
20:42-!-niblet [potatoe@216-135-35.oke1-bras10.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #openttd
20:42<niblet>hi
20:44<niblet>im just dropping by because Im stuck again ofc.. is there a way to look up the X and Y tile coordinates of a Sign? I mean the class has a X, Y and Z component, but those dont seem to correspond to TileIndex->x and y.
20:48<niblet>I mean they dont seem to correspond to TileX(tileindex)
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21:10<PeterT>anyone have any idea where to get those patched servers like ! Goal servers, or grow your city servers?
21:11<niblet>you can have mine when Im done with it
21:11<niblet>just got to sort out a couple of more bugs and I'll put it on the forums
21:12<PeterT>really?
21:12<PeterT>sweet
21:12<PeterT>its like a goal server? what commands?
21:13<niblet>its the Akoz' servers
21:13<PeterT>sweet, im on that right now
21:13<niblet>cool. which one?
21:13<PeterT>Grow your city
21:13<PeterT>Peter and cameron transports
21:16<niblet>right. well hopefully I'll have it posted tomorrow some time
21:17<PeterT>cool
21:17<PeterT>how do i find it
21:17<niblet>openttd forums
21:18<PeterT>i know
21:18<PeterT>will it be at the top?
21:18<niblet>no
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21:19<PeterT>cool
21:19<PeterT>ill look for it
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21:30<z-MaTRiX>hey
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21:36<PeterT>how do you use conditional orders?
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 13 00:00:36 2009