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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-08-01

---Logopened Sat Aug 01 00:00:04 2009
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04:33<Priski>0.7 nearing release :)
04:35<@Rubidium>0.7 of what?
04:38<@Rubidium>or is it that glx was not here?
04:40-!-Rubidium changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.2 | Website: *.openttd.org (BaNaNaS: bananas, translator: translator, server list: servers, nightly-builds: nightly, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only
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05:01<@Rubidium>hi Pikka
05:10<TrueBrain>morning all
05:11<@Rubidium>morning... you're late, it's already after I've broken fasting
05:11<TrueBrain>you are early
05:15<@Rubidium>and Ido has overtaken Urdu in the race to the 'missing strings' leader board ;)
05:16<Pikka>hello
05:16<TrueBrain>wow. someone translated 23 strings? I am so impressed
05:17<@Rubidium>that's 5 more than a minute ago
05:17<TrueBrain>Rubidium: if there are only commands in a string, is it then safe to assume the translator doesn't need to translate, and can we pre-translate a string?
05:19<@Rubidium>'only' commands as strictly as "no characters between } and {, : and { and } and end-of-line?
05:19<@Rubidium>if so, then yes
05:19<TrueBrain>as in: {YELLOW}{WAYPOINT}
05:19<@Rubidium>that's safe
05:19<TrueBrain>and shit like: STR_NULL, STR_EMPTY, STR_BLACK, ...
05:20<@Rubidium>{YELLOW}{STATION} {STATIONFEATURES} probably too, but STR_FORMAT_DATE_* probably not (order differs per country)
05:21<TrueBrain>well, pretranslating simply means it is translated, but a translator can change it later on if he likes :p
05:23<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: but it is way more likely for a translator to do the right thing when he encounters STR_FORMAT_DATE_* during translating than when in game wondering whether the date format can be changed and assuming it is hardcodec
05:24<TrueBrain>true .. in that case we can't do any string
05:24<@Rubidium>+|
05:24<TrueBrain>as STR_FORMAT_DATE_TINY is not different than STR_BLACK_STATION
05:25<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: STR_BLACK_STATION can only have 1 order, STR_FORMAT_DATE_TINY can have 6
05:25<TrueBrain>that is true
05:25<TrueBrain>so everything with only colour or single positional commands can be pre-translated
05:25<TrueBrain>will look into that then ;)
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06:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm... is there a way to tell the kernel that i have a "hole" in my memory?
06:01<TrueBrain>haha, after broken HD you now also have broken memory? :)
06:01<TrueBrain>not your best month, is it? :)
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>i've probably had that for years :p
06:05<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0511.1/0425.html ?
06:05<@Rubidium>oh, http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/bad_memory.txt;h=df84162132028d6771fc0da0649f54158bdac93c;hb=HEAD might even be more useful
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06:06<TrueBrain>the power of just ... searching ;)
06:06<TrueBrain>ghehe
06:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r17017 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix (r17008): Setup padding for WWT_MATRIX.
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06:12<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: rather knowing that there was a patch ;)
06:12<TrueBrain>:)
06:12*Rubidium used to read lkml, now I only occasionally skim it
06:18-!-kingj is now known as KingJ
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not really in the mood of compiling a kernel
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>i think i'll try the memmap method
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06:19<TrueBrain>run to the store and get for 40 euro new ram, twice as many as you hav enow?
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>not really worth it, and kind of above my budget...
06:20<TrueBrain>fair enough :)
06:20<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: won't happen for me :(
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>i'd probably get an entirely new computer
06:20<@Rubidium>my computer doesn't like more memory ;)
06:20<TrueBrain>Rubidium: mine neither :(
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>i only have 1GB, and my board supports 3
06:22<@Rubidium>for what it's worth, my computer doesn't have enough memory for KDevelop
06:23<@Rubidium>but then, it using 5+GiB isn't nice either
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06:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'll try a reboot now...
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>someone pray for me ;)
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06:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r17018 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#1833]: Take width of station type names into account in station builder window.
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06:42<welshdragon>Can i delete AI companies from a single player or multiplayer game?
06:43<Alberth>buy them
06:43<welshdragon>aah, ok
06:43<Yexo>TrueBrain: how is the ai doc main page generated? (where does the text come from)
06:43*welshdragon doesn't really want to buy them, but will create a new company
06:44<TrueBrain>Yexo: the general doc? Else you need to give me an url :)
06:44<Yexo>http://noai.openttd.org/docs/index.html
06:44<Yexo>the "Documentation can differ from the API in your binaries!" and lines below
06:44<TrueBrain>is inserted by some script
06:44<TrueBrain>why?
06:44-!-ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:44<Yexo>because I'd like to add a link there
06:45<TrueBrain>gimme the details :p
06:45<Yexo>one moment
06:45<TrueBrain>cat annotated.html | sed 's#Here are the data structures with brief descriptions:#Documentation can differ from the API in your binaries!<br>The NoAI revision which match this documentation is @@revision<br>Latest binaries: <a href="http://www.openttd.org/download-trunk">http://www.openttd.org/download-trunk</a><br>Here are the data structures with brief descriptions:#g' | sed s/@@revision/$revision/ > index.html
06:45<TrueBrain>is what happens
06:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r17019 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Doc: add AI API changelog
06:49<Yexo>there you have the details :p. A link to that new page would be nice
06:49<TrueBrain>then we have to wait till it generates tonight
06:49-!-Cybert1nus is now known as Cybertinus
06:49<TrueBrain>then I can correct
06:49<Yexo>that's no problem
06:49<TrueBrain>which means you need to remind me ;)
06:49<Yexo>filename to link to is "ai__changelog_8hpp.html"
06:50<Yexo>why can't you change the script now?
06:51<TrueBrain>if you are sure about the filename, I can
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06:53<Yexo>I'm sute about that
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06:55<TrueBrain>we will see tonight ;)
06:56<Yexo>thanks :)
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06:58<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i'm not entirely sure whether that actually solved anything
06:59<Yexo>welshdragon: in a singleplayer game, use "stop_ai <companynum>" in the console
06:59<Yexo>it'll remove an AI company completely
07:04<Eddi|zuHause>how about allowing two AIs to run in coop mode? :p
07:05<@Rubidium>coop without communication?
07:05<Yexo>I see no reason to allow that
07:06*TrueBrain smacks Eddi|zuHause with a brick or somethng :)
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07:07*TrueBrain feels sorry and fill Eddi|zuHause with kisses :)
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's fine, i totally deserved that :p
07:12<frosch123>hmm, which ghost is translating greek all the time
07:13<TrueBrain>isn't the name in the commit logs? :p
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>greek - 1 changes by kinglee
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>greek - 303 changes by fumantsu
07:14<frosch123>but wt3 still says "needs translator", or does it need at more than one?
07:15<TrueBrain>WT3 says that if less than 90% is translated
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>that's an automatic calculation
07:15<TrueBrain>(or no translators)
07:15<@Rubidium>frosch123: <90% untranslated || translators == 0 => "needs translator"
07:15<frosch123>ok :)
07:15<TrueBrain>nobody could find out a better way of indicating when there is a need for extra translators :)
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>no cool business metrics for that?
07:21<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: what business metrics do you propose?
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't study business...
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07:22<Eddi|zuHause>i only got a glimpse of that stuff in software engineering
07:22<@Rubidium>so it could very well be business metrics
07:22<welshdragon>Yexo: thank you
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>so i know there exists stuff like that, which one could research for a proper check ;)
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07:36<Eddi|zuHause2>nope, this didn't help a bit...
07:37<TrueBrain>remove the faulty memory bank?
07:37-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>i think there's more at fault than just the memory...
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>i've suspected the north bridge or the graphics card at least once, too
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>the majority of hangs seem to happen when playing video
07:39<TrueBrain>then I suspect your PSU
07:39<TrueBrain>too unstable +5 can cause significant crashes on any computer
07:40<TrueBrain>a friend of mine solved her problems by removing a few USB devices ;)
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i don't really have any replacement PSUs
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>but insufficient power could explain a few oddities, maybe...
07:41<TrueBrain>it always results in random powerlosses to devices
07:41<TrueBrain>HDs dropping
07:41<TrueBrain>screens going blank
07:41<TrueBrain>reboots
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>aren't there sensors for that?
07:42<TrueBrain>you can monitor your voltage
07:42<TrueBrain>but in general there is nothing warning you for those things
07:42<TrueBrain>in my experience it is the +5V which becomes highly unstable .. but I guess the same can happen to the +12V or even the CPU voltage (3.3V normally :p)
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>hm... KSensors only lists CPU Temp...
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07:49<Eddi|zuHause>argh... i hate everything...
07:49<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: if you want to know if that is the problem, remove as many devices as possible
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>like my mouse wheel
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>when i scroll up, it scrolls up
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>when i scroll down, it scrolls up
07:49<TrueBrain>ghehe, have had that once too :)
07:49<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I think you really need a complete replacement :p
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>but the majority of all actions are scrolling down...
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, besides the mouse wheel, the RMB doesn't work...
07:52<@Rubidium>a socialist mouse ;)
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really have many non-essential devices...
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>i only have two HDDs connected, one of which contains / and the other one /home
07:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r17020 /trunk/src/waypoint_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Recenter viewport of waypoint-gui after moving the sign.
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07:59<TrueBrain>you are so screwed :p
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08:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r17021 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use nested widgets for the main window.
08:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r17022 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use nested widgets for the console window.
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09:05<TrueBrain>the Django project has too many open bugs :s
09:06<@Rubidium>name me one (big) project that hasn't got open bugs
09:06<TrueBrain>open bugs, okay
09:06<TrueBrain>1500 open bugs
09:06<TrueBrain>not so much
09:07<@Rubidium>3618 open bugs (for gcc)
09:07<TrueBrain>given the size of gcc, that might be in the idea of acceptable
09:07<TrueBrain>given the size of Django .. not so much
09:08<TrueBrain>and at the very least someone can assign statuses to it
09:08<TrueBrain>not 'New' ;)
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09:20<Alberth>they do have a status between 'new' and 'working on it'?
09:20<@Rubidium>usually there's a confirmed
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09:23<TrueBrain>stupid Django seems unable to do mass-deletes :p
09:25<@Rubidium>why do I associate mass-deletes with physics?
09:25<TrueBrain>n oidea
09:28<Alberth>no doubt there are very interesting physical effects when you flip the value of a lot of bits on the HD :p
09:30<TrueBrain>one of the best things about C++, Python, ... really is the throwing of errors
09:30<TrueBrain>avoids so much complexity of checking error results and shit
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11:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r17023 /trunk/src/ (widget.cpp widget_type.h): -Revert (r16839): FillNestedArray() was less obsolete than anticipated.
11:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r17024 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_gui.h): -Codechange: Allow InitNested to be done in two parts.
11:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r17025 /trunk/src/waypoint_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Waypoint window using all the new goodies (based on work by Rubidium).
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12:17<Yexo>one of the best things about C++, Python, ... really is the throwing of errors <- that really depends on how you use it, I came upon this code yesterday: http://pastebin.org/5773
12:18<TrueBrain>Yexo: LOL!
12:18<TrueBrain>what?!
12:18<TrueBrain>that is insane :)
12:19<Yexo>that's the quality of code I've been working with over the last two weeks
12:19<TrueBrain>that .... sucks :s
12:20<Yexo>catch (Exception err) { throw err; } <- also very nice, as you won't can't see the previous call stack
12:20<TrueBrain>hehe
12:20<TrueBrain>'throw' alone would be much better ;)
12:20<Yexo>indeed
12:21<valhallasw>related to throw....
12:22*valhallasw searches reddit for the link
12:22<valhallasw>http://www.smallshire.org.uk/sufficientlysmall/2009/07/31/in-c-throw-is-an-expression/
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12:25<Yexo>That makes me wonder about constructs like this: http://pastebin.org/5774
12:26<@Rubidium>undefined
12:26<Yexo>and if the first line had read "int x = 3;"?
12:26<TrueBrain>I think it is a stupid thing to write
12:26<Yexo>it certainly is :)
12:27<@Rubidium>Yexo: 3
12:27<valhallasw>Yexo: before the actual assignment, the throw is executed
12:27<valhallasw>I think
12:27<Yexo>that seems a logical explanation
12:27<TrueBrain>I somehow doubt it is defined by any standard :p
12:28<@Rubidium>I think it is defined
12:28<@Rubidium>simply because throw is kind-of a goto
12:28<TrueBrain>good argument why it would be defined by a standard ;)
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12:29<TrueBrain>I think it says something about: implementation depending
12:30<valhallasw>"a throw-expression which is an integral constant expression of integer type that evaluates to zero"
12:31<valhallasw>which doesnt answer the question, of course
12:31<TrueBrain>if (throw a) { printf("boe\n"); }
12:31<TrueBrain>ghehe :)
12:31<TrueBrain>int x = 1 << throw a;
12:32<Yexo>int a = throw x ? thow y : throw z;
12:32<TrueBrain>good to hide stuff in your code :)
12:32<TrueBrain>printf("Welcome to my game, I am now going to ", throw you, " a nice ball")
12:32<Yexo>:D
12:33<@Rubidium>A throw-expression is of type void. Code that executes a throw-expression is said to ``throw an exception;'' code that subsequently gets control is called a ``handler.'
12:33<TrueBrain>int x = (void)
12:34<TrueBrain>what does that do? :)
12:34<@Rubidium>foo.cpp:3: error: void value not ignored as it ought to be
12:35<TrueBrain>but with 'throw' it does work, so I wonder what it gets assigned :p
12:36<@Rubidium>no, with throw that doesn't work, at least not with my gcc
12:36<TrueBrain>int y = x > 4 ? x : throw std::out_of_range; <- but that does work?
12:36<@Rubidium>yes
12:36<TrueBrain>I mean, then something doesn't start to add up
12:36<TrueBrain>if int x = throw bla doesn't work
12:36<TrueBrain>but the above does
12:37<@Rubidium>int x = throw => certainly wrong
12:37<@Rubidium>int x = a ? b : throw => simple way of throwing and doing assignment
12:38<TrueBrain>weirdest syntax ever .. sometimes it is an expression, sometimes it is not
12:38<TrueBrain>I wonder what MSVC thinks of it :p
12:40<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: it is an expression in all cases
12:40<Yexo> int x = a ? b : throw <- that doesn't compile for me
12:40<Yexo>test.cpp:12: error: expected primary-expression before ';' token
12:41<@Rubidium>int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { int x = argc ? argc : throw; } <- works for me
12:42<Yexo>ah, yes, that works
12:43<Yexo>int y = x > 4 ? x : throw std::out_of_range; <- I was literally following that page, but throw std::out_of_range is not valid, it should be throw std::out_of_range("message")
12:44<Zuu>Someone knows how to make a link to a category page as an internal wiki-link?
12:45<KingJ>Extra : before the Category:XXX I think
12:45<KingJ>e.g
12:45<Zuu>[[Category:Compiling_OpenTTD|Compiling OpenTTD]] does not work. The link does not even appear
12:45<KingJ>[[:Category:XXX]]
12:45<Zuu>Ok
12:46<Zuu>Thanks, that worked.
12:46<KingJ>Excellent
12:46<valhallasw>test.cpp:2: error: third operand to the conditional operator is of type ‘void’, but the second operand is neither a throw-expression nor of type ‘void’
12:47<valhallasw>for int i = argc < 2 ? 1 : (void) 0;
12:48<TrueBrain>so it has special code to allow throw-expressions, cool :)
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>and what exactly is the advantage over "if (~a) throw; x=b"?
12:50<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: well, your method is more readable
12:50<TrueBrain>so that sounds like a terrible idea :p
12:55<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: you can use the ? in a "expression-list of a mem-initializer" and not the if
12:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17026 /trunk/ (config.lib configure): -Fix [FS#3076]: "[bd]ash"-ism in configure
12:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17027 /trunk/readme.txt: -Document: that Solaris needs gmake instead of make and generalise the compiling section a bit
12:59<valhallasw>and besides, there's no way to win an obfuscated code contest with your construct, Eddi|zuHause
12:59-!-OwenS [~oshepherd@host86-144-20-57.range86-144.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
13:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17028 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_changelog.hpp: -Fix (r17019): a function and class were not mentioned in the changelog
13:00<OwenS>Lag: 666ms. Devlish!:P
13:00<TrueBrain>you guys commit too much lately
13:00<TrueBrain>it starts to annoy me
13:00<TrueBrain>I should fix that ...
13:00<valhallasw>commit limits \o/
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13:01<@Rubidium>valhallasw: bad idea, rather feed TrueBrain more sugar :)
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13:02<valhallasw>TrueBrain: fetch your ice-cream-with-too-much-sugar at HL400! (as soon as we start doing shows again, at least)
13:02<TrueBrain>valhallasw: lol
13:02<TrueBrain>have seen the 'show' one too many times, sorry
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13:04<valhallasw>ok
13:04<valhallasw>xs4all, die plz
13:05<TrueBrain>although it does remind me the time one of those tanks had a faulty release valve, and put our whole classroom full witha nice cloud of cold air
13:05<TrueBrain>for about 10cm high :p
13:05*Rubidium wonders what HL400 is
13:05<@Rubidium>whether it's the tire
13:05<@Rubidium>or the mixer
13:05<TrueBrain>a building, floor, and room number
13:06<TrueBrain>all in 5 letters
13:06<TrueBrain>although I wonder what the L stands for ..
13:06<TrueBrain>Lab? Level?
13:06<TrueBrain>well, in fact, it even tells which wing
13:08<TrueBrain>50 translations per second
13:08<TrueBrain>that is slow :s
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13:19<TrueBrain>why oh why is Django so FUCKING SLOW :(
13:19<TrueBrain>grr
13:21<valhalla2w>TrueBrain: Huygens Lab 400 :P
13:21<@Rubidium>because compiling it with -O256 overflowed?
13:21<valhalla2w>and because you're running it in development mode, probably
13:21<TrueBrain>valhalla2w: yeah, Lab, I thought that .. still weird
13:21<TrueBrain>nope ..switched to non-debug
13:22<TrueBrain>still fat-ass slow
13:22<valhalla2w>erm
13:22<valhalla2w>how are you running the site?
13:22<valhalla2w>from the python web server?
13:22-!-valhalla2w is now known as valhallasw
13:22<TrueBrain>nope ... script-call
13:22<TrueBrain>I just walk 2200 entries from a table and insert it in 3 other tables
13:23<valhallasw>that should be fairly easy
13:23<TrueBrain> for baseString in BaseString.objects.filter(subProject = subProject):
13:23<TrueBrain> APICore.TranslationCreate(language, baseString, None, argv = argv)
13:23<TrueBrain>codewise
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r17029 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 3 changes by arnaullv
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 7 changes by Gavin
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: danish - 31 changes by silentStatic
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 6 changes by Yexo
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frisian - 54 changes by huddekul
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r17030 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt waypoint_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Better descriptions for buoys.
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14:26<Zuu>Oo, forgot to add /trunk to SVN-address and started to wonder why it took so long to checkout the source code :-p
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>now it's getting weird... i booted like normal, and it said "pppd: unknown option 'eth0'"
14:27*TrueBrain slaps Zuu
14:27<TrueBrain>bandwidth eater!
14:28<Zuu>At least I'm on a slow connection so it did "only" eat 180 MB.
14:46<@Rubidium>that's "only" 33% of the repository (if you would've downloaded the raw repository)
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>lots of deleted branches?
14:47<FR^2>Zuu: Hehe, happened to me some time ago at work... I wondered, why it already had checked out about 650mbytes, although the project had around 9mbytes... And a few weeks later, a colleague stumpled upon the same mistake *g*
14:48<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I'm more thinging in the area of language updates
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14:51<xmakina>quick question - how does an AI get the subsidy multiplier?
14:51-!-elmex [elmex@ist.m8geil.de] has joined #openttd
14:52<@Rubidium>I think the only way is by querying the appropriate setting (at least with the existing API)
14:53<xmakina>you wouldn't happen to know what that setting is? the API documentation just says it's looking for char
14:55<TrueBrain>Yexo: concratz on getting the URL right ;)
14:56<Yexo>TrueBrain: every other file uses that naming scheme. Besides, I had just run doxygen locally :)
14:56<@Rubidium>not by heart, I'm guessting something like difficulty.subsidy_multiplier
14:56<TrueBrain>Yexo: ;) Still ...
14:56<xmakina>no worries - found it - list_settings
14:57<xmakina>of course that's a bloody long list ¬_¬
14:57<xmakina>also - spot on Rubidium
14:57<xmakina>:)
14:57-!-JFBelugas [~jfranc@ip-78.40.99.216.dsl-cust.ca.inter.net] has joined #openttd
14:58<@Rubidium>xmakina: you can 'filter' the list (a bit) if you guess the begin of the setting name correctly
14:58<@Rubidium>e.g. list_settings diff
14:58<xmakina>cool - i'll try and remember that if i need to pull any other game settings :)
14:59<@Rubidium>note that the value of the setting isn't the multiplier
15:00<xmakina>so it isn't
15:00<@Rubidium>but a sort of index into a 'multiplier' lookup table
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15:01<xmakina>any way to get the exact multiplier value? it's no real concern as i don't think many folks are going to be changing that index anytime soon
15:01<xmakina>it'd just be nice to have the safety there if/when needed
15:02<@Rubidium>xmakina: no, it's hardcoded into the source and not provided in the API
15:03<@Rubidium>you could suggest an API call to get the subsidy multiplier in http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44249
15:03<xmakina>i'll take my chances then that "1" will always equal x2 then :)
15:05*xmakina suggests
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15:11<Dragoon_Jett>In the road types, what is better roads
15:11<TrueBrain>hard road
15:11<xmakina>they go a bit further before turning
15:11<TrueBrain>sand road tends to be a bit hard to drive on pas 100 kmph
15:11<xmakina>and there's usually more spacing between parallel roads
15:12<xmakina>TrueBrain: ¬_¬
15:13<Dragoon_Jett>Is there any console commands that you can only use in the scenario builder or some tools made to help in the scenario builder
15:13<Dragoon_Jett>Like filters for industrys and the like
15:13<planetmaker>nope
15:13<planetmaker>not that I know of
15:13<xmakina>i don't understand why you'd need anything like that...
15:13<Dragoon_Jett>What about editing starting money
15:14<xmakina>no
15:14<Dragoon_Jett>and loan caps/mins
15:14<xmakina>no
15:14<xmakina>starting money is fixed, loan caps are in the difficulty setting
15:14<xmakina>you can provide the user with some ready made roads if you want to lower start up costs which is essentially upping starting money
15:15<xmakina>but that's about the best you can hope for
15:16-!-stuffcorpse [~rick@121.98.136.241] has joined #openttd
15:16<Dragoon_Jett>Everything is coded in C++ right
15:16<TrueBrain>no
15:16<TrueBrain>we also have bash, awk, asm, ..
15:17<Dragoon_Jett>Could you code starting money and the like in newgrf
15:17<TrueBrain>no
15:17<TrueBrain>[21:14] <xmakina> starting money is fixed, loan caps are in the difficulty setting
15:18<Dragoon_Jett>Yes, so I assumed it was only fixed to clients and the like but if you coded changes into the game then again I ASSUMED you could change it
15:19<TrueBrain>not via newgrfs
15:19<xmakina>in ottd Scenario = Map
15:19<xmakina>that's all
15:20<xmakina>i appreciate in most games Scenario = Special starting, goal, other alteration but that's not the case with OTTD
15:21<@Rubidium>in OpenTTD you can also have a 'special' starting, if by that you mean: already existing company infrastructure, a big depot or so
15:21-!-krushia [~krushia@pool-71-168-96-174.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #openttd
15:22<xmakina>as in renaming a savegame into a scenario?
15:22<TrueBrain>xmakina: OpenTTD doens't even have 'goals'
15:22<xmakina>I know - I was pointing out that most games use the word scenario to indicate something unusual
15:23<xmakina>special goals being one of the usual changes
15:23<TrueBrain>would be nice if the game had goals though ..
15:23<TrueBrain>clear goals, that is
15:23<xmakina>nah - i like being able to make my own
15:24<xmakina>my usual is "Connect every town"
15:24<TrueBrain>I never managed to reach that goal :p
15:24<xmakina>lol - same. getting very close on a 256x256 map though
15:24<OwenS>TrueBrain: 64x64 map and it should be easy :p
15:24<xmakina>just need to construct the north-western hub and grab all the towns that side of the map and i'll be done
15:24<TrueBrain>you can't connect 1 town :)
15:25<OwenS>Yes you can! You connect it to... itself?
15:25<xmakina>two bus stations :P
15:25<TrueBrain>that is not "connect every town"
15:25-!-Baffage [~potetfar@160.80-202-187.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd
15:25<xmakina>well if there is only 1 town then they're all connected
15:25<xmakina>also: industries can be a valid alternative if there's a lack of towns
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15:26<TrueBrain>the last game I played, I had industries disabled :p
15:26<xmakina>if it only had 1 town i imagine you got very bored very quickly ¬_¬
15:26<OwenS>"The mileage (in kilometres) from..." Is it just me who thinks there is something wrong with that phrasing? :P
15:26<TrueBrain>OwenS: depends on the IQ of the reader
15:26<xmakina>there might be...
15:26<Baffage>heyguys, i'm new to this game, and i just noticed that my competitor companies make money off of "New vehicles", how is that possible?
15:27<TrueBrain>sell vehicles?
15:27<@Rubidium>by selling more vehicles that they buy
15:27<@Rubidium>s/that/than/
15:28<OwenS>Rubidium: So they're operating -2 busses? :P
15:28<@Rubidium>relatively since jan 1, yes
15:28<Baffage>ah, thanks Rubidium
15:28<xmakina>i buy a bus in year 1
15:28<xmakina>i sell it in year 2
15:28<xmakina>???
15:28<xmakina>profit
15:29<TrueBrain>and you thank him :(
15:29<Baffage>lolol, thanks to you too :]
15:30<TrueBrain>:) :) :)
15:30*xmakina /wrists
15:30<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: I still have the cookie I offered you yesterday ;)
15:30<OwenS>TrueBrain: Rubidium more likely to explode on you. Just be glad it wasn't Francium ;-)
15:30<xmakina>it's okay :'( i'm used to being completely overlooked :'(
15:30<TrueBrain>Rubidium: now you tell me!
15:30*TrueBrain hugs xmakina
15:30<TrueBrain>hmm .. now I feel dirty
15:30*TrueBrain goes to take a shower
15:30<xmakina>that'll be my wrist blood
15:30<xmakina>:S
15:31*OwenS calls social services
15:31<Baffage>awright, prepare for another question, is it advantageous to full load a passenger train at the station?
15:31<TrueBrain>depends
15:32<xmakina>very depends
15:32<@Rubidium>Welcome to the social services, if you've got suicide problems please hang on while we find someone for you to talk to
15:32<xmakina>if the town makes 3 passengers a month it isn't worth it at all
15:32<OwenS>I'll say that in #ottdc we don't, because it generally decreases traffic. Of course, what is applicable to us is not always applicable to everyone else :p
15:32<TrueBrain>for planes I always do full load
15:32<TrueBrain>for trains never
15:33<TrueBrain>I doubt if matters on the big scale :p
15:33<Baffage>ah, allright
15:33<xmakina>buses I do at small towns so they get a good station rating and so grow quicker
15:33<TrueBrain>low pax waiting => high station rating
15:33<TrueBrain>fast delivery => more money
15:33<TrueBrain>high station rating => more pax
15:33<Baffage>i'll just stick with full loading coal and stuff like that then
15:34<xmakina>Baffage: full load if you the train won't be coming back with a full load
15:34<xmakina>that's normally a safe rule
15:34<xmakina>*you know
15:35<Baffage>allright
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15:36<TrueBrain>OFTC: GIVE ME DORPSGEK BACK!
15:36<TrueBrain>ass
15:36<OwenS>OFTCs been really splitty lately
15:37<TrueBrain>LOL! Overreacting OwenS? :)
15:37<TrueBrain>the fact they hadn't any for months doesn't mean 3 in a month is a lot :p
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15:38*TrueBrain hugs DorpsGek
15:38<TrueBrain>glad you are back
15:40<planetmaker>wow...
15:45<@Rubidium>planetmaker: you are aware that openttd's compile farm builds nforenum too?
15:46*frosch123 just wanted to ask the same
15:48<@Rubidium>and our download page looks much nicer: http://www.openttd.org/en/download-nforenum ;)
15:50<@Rubidium>though it will only builds an hour after TTDP gets build, which is somewhere middle in 'your' night
15:50*DaleStan just updated his signature.
15:52<@Rubidium>DaleStan: you've noticed that I've made a diff for grfcodec to support the compile farm?
15:52<DaleStan>I have..
15:52<DaleStan>Later today, I hope.
15:53<@Rubidium>that's all fine, just wanted to know it didn't go unnoticed
15:53<@Rubidium>it'll just occasionally look at svn.ttdpatch.net ;)
15:56<Ammler>mäh, now, I have another error in opengfx :-(
15:56<Ammler>strange
15:59<TrueBrain>delete it
15:59<TrueBrain>fixes all problems
16:12*Zuu groans a bit on the filtering code. Filtering out content downloads that can be upgraded is quite easy, but to get it done nice and also when the tag/name string is zero-size is another story.
16:14<Zuu>Would someone wants to be able to filter the list of possible upgrades using a filter string ever?
16:15<Zuu>Dumb question - sure someone ever will do it. But is it important?
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16:15<TrueBrain>woesh
16:16<frosch123>Zuu: add a filter to the newgrf-gui, which filters on name, description, filename and grfid :)
16:21<frosch123>(well actually the add-newgrf-dialog)
16:24-!-Chruker [~no@0x5da34ce4.vjnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: deleting opengfx did not solve any of my problems :(
16:25<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: no, you have to delete your problem
16:25<TrueBrain>that always works
16:25<TrueBrain>in your case, delete your computer
16:28<planetmaker>rm -rf /dev/Eddi/computer ? ;-)
16:29<planetmaker>Rubidium: I wasn't aware that the CF now does build it automatically
16:29<planetmaker>If that's so, I can spare myself the hassle, at least the windows one. :-) Good to know. Thx
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16:30<frosch123> /sbin/suicide or shutdown --permanent NOW might also work
16:30<planetmaker>DaleStan: fixes... I added another makefile fix for nforenum. "release" doesn't work on MinGW environments
16:30<Zuu>frosch123, What does newgrf-gui has to do with content download? :-)
16:30<planetmaker>at least not for me...
16:30<frosch123>Zuu: you were talking about filtering, weren't you?
16:31<Zuu>Yep
16:31<frosch123>and I need filtering for the add-newgrf dialog :)
16:31<Zuu>But not of grf-window.
16:32<planetmaker>Rubidium: what's the look-up frequency of CF concerning nforenum / grfcodec?
16:32<@Rubidium>planetmaker: it does work if you override NFORENUM in Makefile.local
16:32<planetmaker>(I mean: how often does it check for source updates, which it then compiles)?
16:32<@Rubidium>planetmaker: daily
16:33<planetmaker>Rubidium: sure, then it works. But... that doesn't sound sensible IMO
16:33<@Rubidium>resp. 1 and 2 hours after the TTDP compile run
16:33<planetmaker>^ changing .local to make it
16:33<planetmaker>ah, nice :-)
16:33<Zuu>frosch123, Or was it not an advice, but more a wish from your side ;)
16:33<@Rubidium>but I have to agree, for 'simple' users mingw support out of the box is better
16:33<DaleStan>You should see my Makefile.local for TTDPatch.
16:33<frosch123>yes, yes, yes, feature request ! :)
16:34<planetmaker>Well. I added a small diff which works for me :-)
16:34<planetmaker>and should - I hope - work for other MinGW users, too
16:34<DaleStan>The diff between .local and .local.sample is larger than .local.sample
16:35<planetmaker>hehe :-)
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16:35<Zuu>frosch123: What I had in mind: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=44582
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16:36<planetmaker>well. that big difference in size is not the case here, but surely it has some elements, too :-)
16:37<frosch123>I hate automatic upgrades :)
16:37<planetmaker>especially a distinction and detection whether make is running on mac or on win - and setting variables accordingly :-)
16:37<OsteHovel>forced automatic upgrades suck
16:37<OsteHovel>optinal automatic upgrade i feel is fine
16:39<@Rubidium>still, lots of work for a fairly hidden 'feature' that is either annoying as it pops up at the EXACT moment you want to click on some button or always shows on startup (if enabled)
16:39<DaleStan>... That's better. When TSVN fails to svn add new files, I get a little disturbed.
16:40<Zuu>frosch123, That is why the idea is that it won't do it without you confirming.
16:40<@Rubidium>whereas the manual way is probably 2 clicks more
16:41<planetmaker>Generally it's nice to have the option to automatically update the stuff you want.
16:41<frosch123>well, I rather meant: i dislike the popup: "do you wanna upgrade?"
16:41<planetmaker>But only if it's an option :-)
16:41<@Rubidium>planetmaker: but at what cost?
16:41<Zuu>I find it quite convinient to not have to myself poll for updates.
16:41<Alberth>I am wondering what the use is. Does the game automagically pick newer versions?
16:42<@Rubidium>because either it has to run in the background, which OpenTTD doesn't quite like
16:42<@Rubidium>or it 'locks' starting OpenTTD
16:43<@Rubidium>or it always spawns a window with 'checking for updates' or so
16:43<planetmaker>hm... wouldn't it be indeed a candidate for a separate thread, the automatic upgrade download?
16:43<frosch123>hmm, I guess queriing bananas takes about the same time as scanning the hd for newgrfs :)
16:43<frosch123>at least on my side :p
16:43<Alberth>(ie not only do you need to load updates from the Internet, it also needs to use them)
16:43<Baffage>I'm trying to make a bus route, but when I click the bus station nothing happens, what might be wrong? It's my station and the game is not paused. I can send it to any other station, but not this one
16:43<@Rubidium>planetmaker: and then during loading a game it's finished and rescans for NewGRFs?
16:44<Alberth>Baffage: what do you expect to happen?
16:44<planetmaker>Rubidium: no. A game has anyway its fixed newgrfs.
16:44<planetmaker>Baffage: it's a truck stop?
16:44<Zuu>But could work for AIs
16:44<Baffage>ah, it was a lorry and not a bus station :] i expected the station to appear on the route list
16:45<planetmaker>hehe :-) Happened to me, too. Wondering why it cannot be added.
16:45<Alberth>enough today, bye all
16:45<planetmaker>good night, Alberth
16:45<Zuu>Good night Alberth
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16:46<@Rubidium>planetmaker: but all NewGRF structs are trashed and rebuild. Reading trashed (read freed) structs is NOT good
16:46<planetmaker>eh?
16:47<Zuu>Without thinking of the possibility of threading, my first though was to make the checking blocking.
16:47-!-OsteHovel [~OsteHovel@81.158.16.62.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: null]
16:47<planetmaker>where did I say to use the new ones in a loaded game?
16:47<@Rubidium>Zuu: that'd make, in of slow name resolution block for over a minute
16:47<planetmaker>and where do I want to trash anything?
16:48<@Rubidium>planetmaker: you want to download, thus you want to rescan. The rescan trashes the grf lists
16:48<planetmaker>Rubidium: you said "loading game". Loading a game means, no need to re-scan anything as you know your MD5 and GRFID
16:49<@Rubidium>planetmaker: I said that the download finishes DURING loading
16:49<planetmaker>yes. But why does that then require a re-scan?
16:50<@Rubidium>because otherwise you won't see the newly downloaded stuff until you've quit OpenTTD
16:50<@Rubidium>which makes the automatic download quite pathetic
16:50<planetmaker>a re-scan is only necessary, if you open the newgrf selection window
16:50<planetmaker>otherwise a user doesn't need newgrfs anyway
16:50<planetmaker>*a new list of
16:51<@Rubidium>and what if a user intends to join a server?
16:51<@Rubidium>or if the user downloaded someone's savegame and wants to load it?
16:51<planetmaker>then he has that option anyway
16:52<@Rubidium>and because it didn't rescan, you have to redownload which probably won't work quite well (the overwriting an existing file)
16:52<planetmaker>the other-person-savegame is IMO the only case where the user can indeed profit from newgrfs downloaded.
16:53-!-TheMask96 [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:53<@Rubidium>the 'join server' too
16:53<planetmaker>a player cannot join unless he has all newgrf
16:53<planetmaker>so it's not a problem
16:54<@Rubidium>but the user HAS the NewGRF but OpenTTD just DOES NOT KNOW ABOUT IT
16:54<planetmaker>yes, he might need to wait till download is finished. But he had to do that anyway. And a re-scan when there's no game yet loaded, doesn't hurt, does it?
16:54<@Rubidium>thus causing a duplicate download, causing overwriting of existing files which is totally untested
16:55<planetmaker>whatever.
16:55<@Rubidium>planetmaker: but when is there a game loaded and when not?
16:55<@Rubidium>because when it starts rescanning that might not be the case, but during the rescanning a game may be loaded
16:55<planetmaker>Rubidium: case internet server: you try to join, it fails due to missing newgrf. No game loaded. Ok, you hit rescan, maybe it works now, that the download is finished
16:55<planetmaker>No harm
16:56<TrueBrain>or you join the thread on such actions? :)
16:56<@Rubidium>planetmaker: but the user doesn't know that it has downloaded it, thus he does not press rescan
16:56<planetmaker>case your own game: it may download whenever. No re-scan needed. You have your newgrf
16:56<@Rubidium>or can you remember 30 'upgrades'?
16:56<planetmaker>Rubidium: then OpenTTD might do, when it is done downloading
16:56<TrueBrain>it would at least be useful if OpenTTD informs you if there are updates ;)
16:56<planetmaker>because there is nothing loaded a re-scan is safe
16:56<planetmaker>anytime
16:57<planetmaker>the only interesting thing is a savegame where you don't have all newgrf.
16:57<planetmaker>well. I guess it will load as now, too.
16:57<planetmaker>with or without errors. No re-scan necessary as it's unsave
16:57<@Rubidium>planetmaker: NOT if it is run in the background and the user presses the 'load game' button moments after it starts rescanning
16:57<TrueBrain>Rubidium: semaphores?
16:58<planetmaker>:-)
16:58<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: already had enough trouble with those for NoAI
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16:59<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I believe it was not the problem of NoAI. That said, other solution is to join the thread
16:59<@Rubidium>anyhow, it's unlikely that you can write it blocking as the connecting to the content server is non-blocking
17:00<Zuu>You can spawn a window that refuses to be closed untill the checking is done, and thus even if OpenTTD itself is not blocking you block the users.
17:01<TrueBrain>Zuu: clever idea; sadly enough there is always the console :p
17:01<Zuu>block that one too :-p
17:02<@Rubidium>not to mention blocking OpenTTD for 1+ minute in case you network is flaky sucks
17:02<TrueBrain>put a statusbar in the top of the screen, and block vital buttons like newgame and loadgame :p
17:02<DPyro>but then users will get annoyed
17:02<planetmaker>:-P
17:02<DPyro>can't you just block the multiplayer buttons?
17:03<planetmaker>DPyro: the point was that it's dangerous also in SP situations. Especially the last one Rubi mentioned
17:04<TrueBrain>why does my X consume 150 MiB of RAM :s
17:04<Zuu>But then, isn't it up to users if they wants to have the convinience of not having to poll manually or having quick OpenTTD startups?
17:04<planetmaker>Hm... what about that: don't update the newgrf list. Just send a chat message that it has been updated.
17:05<planetmaker>anyway... time for bed... Only slept like 8 hours combined the last two nights.
17:05<planetmaker>good night folks
17:05<TrueBrain>Apple Style: put a (N) after Content Service when there is an update! :)
17:05<TrueBrain>good night planetmaker!! :)
17:05<TrueBrain>sleep well ;)
17:05<Zuu>good night planetmaker
17:06<planetmaker>thanks :-)
17:06<TrueBrain>Django is killing me!! Even without saving it takes ages to walk over 20k records .....
17:06<TrueBrain>I really need to figure out what I am doing wrong, or what Django is doing wrong ..
17:07<Zuu>TrueBrain, Could be an option, to just inform that there are updates, but then let the users do the work themself.
17:07<TrueBrain>Zuu: I personally hate it when something downloads updates automaticly, like firefox does on windows
17:07<TrueBrain>I like Apple for telling me there is an update, and allowing me to download it when I want it
17:08-!-Azrael- [~azraeluk@cpc4-papw2-0-0-cust778.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:08<TrueBrain>(I believe RedHat does the same, for example :0
17:08<Zuu>My original idea was never to upgrade automatically, but inform and allow users to upgrade by clicking on a button.
17:08<TrueBrain>don't make nag-screens
17:08<TrueBrain>they are .. nagging :p
17:08<TrueBrain>I hate CloneCD for every time telling me there is a new version
17:08<TrueBrain>I mean .. fuck off ..
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>hm... is it wise to split the power load over two PSUs?
17:09<Zuu>And the main motivation was that people should get the last AIs etc. now that they can esier update AIs in running games. :-)
17:09<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: no
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>i mean like put the HDDs on another PSU
17:09<TrueBrain>problem is that modern PSU are ATX
17:10<TrueBrain>the motherboards control their powerstate
17:10<TrueBrain>(the reason your HDs are not constant powered on)
17:10<TrueBrain>so you will need to bypass that :p
17:10<OwenS>Other thing is possibility of ground loops
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>i have an older computer with a (suspected) dead PSU
17:10<OwenS>Those can really ruin your day :p
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>it powers up, runs the fans, but it doesn't boot
17:11<TrueBrain>euh .. if the PSU is dead, it doesn't powerup :p
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>bah
17:11<TrueBrain>if it doesn't boot mostly your memory is fried, or one of the two bridges
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>i meant CPU
17:11<OwenS>Or it powers up wildly out of specification and kills everything
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>too many abbreviations
17:11<TrueBrain>modern computers have POST to indicate what is wrong exactly :p
17:12<TrueBrain>although I believe that is outdated too :p
17:12<OwenS>PC Speaker connected?
17:12<OwenS>:p
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't display anything, and doesn't make "beep"
17:12<OwenS>Check the PC speaker is correctly connected.
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>the HDD-access-diode is constantly on
17:12<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Does it have SATA or just PATA hard disks?
17:12<TrueBrain>lol, your IDE cable is in backwards :p
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>as far as i remember, it used to beep, but i'll check
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>there are no HDDs in there
17:13<OwenS>Aah
17:13<TrueBrain>I loved IDE for that :) If your cable was backwards, it just kept the light on :p
17:14<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: HDD led is the most untrustworthy light of a computer
17:14<OwenS>Yeah. Doesn't happen these days, even with PATA disks, because the controller controls the light now, rather than it being connected to one oft he bus lines :p
17:14<OwenS>TrueBrain: Not true. Keyboard lights are less trustworthy ;-)
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>it's a pentium-III 800 afair
17:14<TrueBrain>for example, on my computer it only reacts on SATA1 :(
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>my current computer doesn't even have one
17:14<OwenS>I wouldn't know since my HDs are RAIDes... =/
17:15<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: either way, connecting 2 PSUs to one motherboard is asking for troubles :)
17:15<OwenS>My server has one plus one on each of the drive enclosures
17:15<TrueBrain>I am happy our servers have hotswap bays
17:15<TrueBrain>they come with their own activity light :)
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>well, connecting two transformators to a model railway works ;)
17:15<OwenS>I have hotswap bays. Unfortonately Intel convined to not put hotswap controllers on their ITX motherboards....
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>just make sure they have a common ground
17:15<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but they don't interact ;)
17:15<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Thats a transformer. Not a switch mode power supply
17:16<TrueBrain>OwenS: SATA is always hotswap ;)
17:16<OwenS>TrueBrain: Needs controller support
17:16<TrueBrain>OwenS: not in my book :p
17:16<TrueBrain>we have servers which claim not to have that support
17:16<TrueBrain>but believe me .. it works :p
17:16<TrueBrain>(we just reset the SATA driver on-the-fly :p)
17:16<OwenS>The ICH7 on ITX motherboards can't be taken out of legacy IDE mode so the OS never detects the drive prescence/removal
17:17<TrueBrain>no problem too small to fake a reboot :p
17:17<OwenS>And... um... the OS reacts unkindly to loss of it's swap device. And root device :p
17:17<TrueBrain>why swap device?
17:17<TrueBrain>I can't remember the last time I created a swap
17:17<TrueBrain>when you machines run with 8 GB of RAM, swap becomes ... well ... unneeded :p
17:18<TrueBrain>and the OS is loaded completley in the memory (just 80 MB :p)
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>once upon a time i read that swap is recommended to be 3 times the ram
17:18<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: that is VERY old :p
17:18<TrueBrain>twice, with a max of 1GB, is the general advise at the moment I believe :)
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>i think it was in the win 3.1 manual or something :p
17:18<OwenS>I have 1GB in my server and 2GB swap on my desktop (Both 2GB RAM)
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>or win 95?
17:19<OwenS>(2GB I blame on me not paying enough attention to Anaconda :P )
17:19<TrueBrain>the only downside of no swap, is that the OOMkiller can give you a hard time
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember having a win95 manual
17:19<OwenS>TrueBrain: Thats the reason I leave swap in. So everything doesn't get OOMKilled when I do a complex compile :p
17:19<TrueBrain>10 minutes for 20,000 strings ... this is unacceptable ...
17:20<TrueBrain>OwenS: swap or no swap, I get computers killed with the calculations I run :p
17:20<OwenS>What you working with?
17:20<TrueBrain>requesting 16 GB of RAM is no good :p
17:20<TrueBrain>Django .. and it is giving me a hard time ..
17:20<OwenS>Tried replacing the ORM with SqlAlchemy?
17:20<TrueBrain>who with what?
17:21<OwenS>Django's DB layer with SqlAlchemy... if thats the cause of the slowness (I gathered it was from earlier... but wasn't paying enough attention at the time to be sure :P )
17:21<TrueBrain>I wouldn't know what Django uses currently
17:22<OwenS>Custom DB layer. But SqlAlchemy is fast and optimizes better than me (Though I will freely admit I'm no DB admin :P )
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17:22<TrueBrain>I guess the only question I should ask is: how to install?
17:22<OwenS>easy_install sqlalchemy
17:23<Sacro>hmmm
17:23<TrueBrain>okay, I asked it wrong:
17:23<TrueBrain>hwo to install it with django?
17:23<OwenS>I think that someone's written a binding somewhere
17:25<OwenS>I've never used it with Django, but on it's own it's always been pleasent to use
17:26<TrueBrain>I use Django mostly for its simpleness in database layering
17:28<TrueBrain>so I am sure it is nice and all .. but that would make using Django kind of obsolete :p
17:28<TrueBrain>well .. maybe I should stop using Django in the first place, and write a standalone Python application
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17:39<TrueBrain>maybe I do make too many selects .. hmm ..
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17:45<Ammler>/!!Warning (60): Expected 145 (0x91) sprites for this type. <-- I get this warning for the GUI
17:46<Ammler>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/extra/ottd_grf/split/openttdgui.nfo <-- does have 0x96 too.
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17:50<TrueBrain>the difference between having 1 select statement active, is 100% more time needed to do what it does ...
17:50<TrueBrain>(from 11s to 21s)
17:50<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:56<TrueBrain>adding a few INDEXes increased it to 14s ..
17:56-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:58<OwenS>OK. Something odd there
17:58<OwenS>Tried running it inside a transaction if you're not?
17:58<TrueBrain>how would that ever increase speed? :)
17:59<TrueBrain>and I found out I did a lot of searches on a 'key' field, but it wasn't an index, so that explains the increase in speed ;)
17:59<OwenS>Because database engines are random like that
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly certain the PC speaker is connected to the computer, but not even when i take out the RAM it makes a beep
17:59<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: then it is toast already :)
17:59<TrueBrain>remove the CPU
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>it's amazingly much ram
17:59<OwenS>"Increased it to 14s" made me think it made it take longer :p
17:59<TrueBrain>see what it does ;)
17:59<TrueBrain>OwenS: owh, no
17:59<TrueBrain>decreased, I should have used
17:59<TrueBrain>11s without select, 14s with select
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>it's 2 bars that say "256-133" and one that says "256-100"
18:00<TrueBrain>DRAM!
18:00<OwenS>SDRAM :p
18:00<OwenS>SDR SDRAM though
18:00<TrueBrain>fucking worthless :p
18:00<TrueBrain>if you give money, people won't buy it :)
18:00<OwenS>I'd take it if you gave me money and paid the postage :P
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i thought that :p
18:01<TrueBrain>OwenS: you can't 'buy' something if you get money for it :p
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>i can't figure out how to get off the CPU
18:01<TrueBrain>big black box?
18:01<TrueBrain>rectangle?
18:01<@Rubidium>I will give you the cookie I promised TrueBrain if you personally come to acquire the cookie
18:02<@Rubidium>(and bring the memory)
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>feeling alone? :p
18:02<OwenS>I think my most fun PC work was replacing the CMOS battery on a Compaq LTE386/20s :P
18:02<TrueBrain>6 minutes in, did 10k records ...
18:02<TrueBrain>still too slow to talk about :s
18:02<OwenS>...the battery is probably worth more than the laptop :P
18:02<TrueBrain> for translation in OpenTTD_Translation.objects.filter(translation__language = language):
18:02<TrueBrain> translation.gender = None
18:02<TrueBrain> translation.save()
18:02<TrueBrain>I think I should find a way to do that slightly more efficient
18:03<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: no, mailing/FEDEXing the cookie will cause that you won't get a cookie but a big mess
18:03<OwenS>2MB Asynchronous DRAM; 386SX processor at 20Mhz; 144MB Conor Peripherals HD
18:03<OwenS>...And a BIOS setup program on a 720kb floppy
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18:04<OwenS>It does have the most graphical BIOS I've seen though :O
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>no really, how do you take out a P-III CPU?
18:04<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: a black box? Rectangle?
18:05<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: not ZIF?
18:05<OwenS>Slot or socket?
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>slot
18:05<Sacro>surely you just lower the lever and it rises out
18:05<Sacro>hmm, slots, dunno
18:05<TrueBrain>wasn't it just a matter of hard pulling?
18:05<OwenS>May have to unlock the heatsink first?
18:06<TrueBrain>http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K7/L_AMD-AMD-K7550MTR51B%20C%20(7th%20Generation)%20(front).jpg <- if it is like that
18:06<TrueBrain>unlock the two thingies on the side
18:06<TrueBrain>and just pull .. hard
18:06<TrueBrain>as in that case the heatsink is integrated in the CPU ... stupid fucking annoying things
18:06<Nite_Owl>there is a specialized tweezer like tool for some older chips
18:07<TrueBrain>http://www.pacificgeek.com/productimages/xl/80522PX266512EC.jpg <- if you feel that you don't have an AMD
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18:07<OwenS>TrueBrain: He said PIII :p
18:07<@Rubidium>Sacro: you're slow!
18:07<benben>hi. is there a way to get those bot players remove roads they don't nead anymore?
18:07<benben>*nee
18:07<benben>d
18:07<TrueBrain>1 minute to import one language ..... :s
18:08<TrueBrain>60 seconds for 2000 strings .. 6 for 200 .. 30 per second ..
18:08<OwenS>What database?
18:08<worldemar>benben: buy them when you can do it and remove by yourself)
18:08<TrueBrain>MySQL
18:08<Zuu>benben: you can edit them as they are GPL2 all of them. But that is probably not the answer you are seeking for :-)
18:09<OwenS>TrueBrain: Is it wrapped in a transaction? With some database engines transactions have masisve speedups...
18:09<TrueBrain>OwenS: then I need to read how transactions work via django
18:09<Sacro>Rubidium: oh?
18:09<TrueBrain>(and I don't believe you :p)
18:09<OwenS>Though I think it wraps the page in one =/
18:09<Zuu>benben: any specific AI you are having in mind?
18:09<@Rubidium>Sacro: archlinux + openttd 0.7.2?
18:10<Sacro>Rubidium: hm?
18:10<Nite_Owl>http://www.inoviq.com/products/tools/simple-chip-puller/
18:10<benben>Zuu: no idea, just the default one ;)
18:10<Sacro>flagged
18:10<Sacro>oh hm
18:10<Sacro>they are both marked as Orphan
18:11<Sacro>so not sure who'll do it
18:11<Yexo>benben: if you're using 0.7 or later, there is no default AI anymore
18:11<Zuu>benben: there is no default AI, if you refer to 0.7 or later.
18:11<benben>i use .6
18:11<TrueBrain>OwenS: MyISAM doesn't support transactions
18:11<benben>worldemar: when am i able to do this? the button is greyed out
18:12<Yexo>5 (or 6?) years after the start of the company, and only if the settings allow it
18:12<Zuu>benben: then you are a bit out on your own as in 0.7 and forward the old AI have been replaced with an API for user made AIs.
18:12<Nite_Owl>http://www.etool.ca/RENDER/1/16/110/6301.html if you want to get very specific
18:12<OwenS>TrueBrain: Tried changing the table engine to InnoDB?
18:12<@Rubidium>Sacro: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=9391 <- any idea why the license is unknown?
18:12<TrueBrain>OwenS: you have any idea how much slower that will be?
18:12<TrueBrain>but sure, I can do that for you
18:13<OwenS>No. I'm no DB expert :p
18:13<Yexo>any reason you're still using 0.6?
18:13<Sacro>errm
18:14<Sacro>Rubidium: licence field written wrong perhaps
18:14<benben>Zuu: Yexo worldemar: found the setting, bought the company, thanks :)
18:15<worldemar>of course that may cost a lot of money... if you wanted to buy many bots
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18:15<OwenS>TrueBrain: InnoDB apparently multithreads better; and it almost always inserts faster
18:15<worldemar>note, you also "buy" their borrows
18:15<Sacro>Rubidium: i could take over the package btu I don't have community write access :(
18:15<Sacro>hm, that one says vegai
18:16<TrueBrain>OwenS: if now I knew how to make those tables InnoDB without doing them one by one :p
18:16<Sacro>how strange
18:16<@Rubidium>I don't care; you've been bloating about archlinux every now and then ;)
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18:17<Sacro>Rubidium: heh
18:17<Sacro>i do love arch
18:19<TrueBrain>OwenS: okay, now Django keeps on telling me the code isn't under transaction management .. grr
18:19<OwenS>O_o
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>nope, i can't figure out how this works...
18:20<DaleStan>Rubidium: The grfcodec diff is no good. MSVC compiles work fine, but your values for and usages of BOOST_WARN and BOOST_ERROR came from nforenum, not grfcodec. (GRFCodec can be built without boost.)
18:20<DaleStan>Also, it breaks Cygwin compilation, for reasons I can only partly explain. (I can make it compile again, but then it doesn't link.)
18:21<TrueBrain>OwenS: okay, running ..
18:21<TrueBrain>it looks very slow ...
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18:23<OwenS>OK; perhaps you should discard my DB advice in the future :p
18:23<TrueBrain>we had 1:30 for basestring + 1 language on MyISAM and no transactions
18:23<TrueBrain>OwenS: no, it is good to know what works and what doesn't
18:24<TrueBrain>but my slowness is mostly due to Django not being able to do a: DELETE FROM table WHERE subProject = 1
18:24<TrueBrain>or what ever
18:24<TrueBrain>and even worse, with UPDATE :p
18:25<TrueBrain>1:39 for InnoDB with transactions
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>hah, it is out
18:26<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: That must have took a lot of effort. I think I managed to unscrew my old CPU fan assembly faster :p
18:27<Baffage>How many planes should I have using one city airport at a time?
18:27<TrueBrain>OwenS: lol, 1:43 for innoDB without transactions :p
18:28<Yexo>Baffage: that depends on the distance your planes have to fly
18:28<OwenS>See, transactions make some DBs faster :p
18:28<Yexo>general answer: try and see for yourself what works
18:28<TrueBrain>OwenS: you were fucking right :)
18:28<OwenS>I think it allows them to cache more aggressively
18:28<@Rubidium>DaleStan: that sucks :(
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>but still no beep
18:29<Yexo>I was reading that 'beep' as 'sleep', I think I should get some sleep ;p
18:29<OwenS>A bridge is dead gets my vote; I'm gonna guess northbridge as it may actually get further if it were the southbridge
18:29<Yexo>good night
18:29<@Rubidium>DaleStan: can you find another way that introduces Makefile.local as unversioned file?
18:30<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: no beep? Fried BIOS? fried south-bridge? Well .. motherboard is fucked, lets leave it with that :p
18:30<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: assuming the beeper isn't damaged ;)
18:30<OwenS>Fried northbridge, fried southbridge, fried superio, fried bios rom, pick any :p
18:31<TrueBrain>whoho, 1 minute 9 ...
18:31-!-Yexo [~Yexo@ip51cca4b5.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Quit: bye]
18:31<OwenS>How did you manage that?
18:31<TrueBrain>Django 1.1 does have massive update shit
18:31<DaleStan>I'm still trying to figure out why it won't link; if I can get that issue solved, getting the BOOST_* fixed will be easy.
18:31<@Rubidium>DaleStan: does nforenum link?
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>means i can sell the CPU and the RAM on Ebay ;)
18:32<OwenS>Not necessarily. May mean that a power regulator went funny and fried multiple components
18:32<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yeah ... good luck with that
18:32<TrueBrain>either way: good night all!!
18:32<OwenS>night
18:32<@Rubidium>night TrueBrain
18:32<TrueBrain>and tnx OwenS
18:33<Zuu>Good night TrueBrain
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>a friend had an article about reviving graphics cards by putting them into the oven at 100°C for 30 minutes, could that work with mainboards, too?
18:40<@Rubidium>there is a chance that it works
18:40<OwenS>You know, I don't know... I don't see why it would work for graphics cards!
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>if it's just a corroded connection, it might be fixed by slightly liquifying the metal
18:41<OwenS>At 100degC?
18:41<OwenS>Solder liquidizes at higher temperatures (150C for leaded, 200C for lead free I think?)
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, it listed like 10 cases where it worked and one where it didn't
18:42<DaleStan><Rubidium> does nforenum link? <-- Yes.
18:42<OwenS>I have a feeling however at those temperatures some plastic components may suffer
18:45<DaleStan>... ... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? I delete the *.os files and the .o files suddenly lose their undefined references?
18:47<DaleStan>(... the .o files, which are never linked with .os files, ...)
18:48*DaleStan is confused.
18:48<@Rubidium>DaleStan: I've just installed a cygwin and it heavily complains "The -mno-cygwin flag has been removed; use a mingw-targeted cross-compiler."
18:49<@Rubidium>removing the -mno-cygwin make it at least do something, though it fails further one now
18:49<DaleStan>gcc 4 complains about that. gcc 3 does not. But now grfcodec is linking here.
18:51<DaleStan>I still don't know what was wrong, though.
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>they ship gcc4 with cygwin nowadays?
18:55<xmakina>quick question before i make an ass of myself on the suggestion board: any way to change the error message color on the AI box? I find that red really hard to read
18:55<xmakina>?
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>at which temperature do the capacitors blow up? :p
18:58<Sacro>hehe
18:58<@Rubidium>xmakina: no, but -d ai=<some number between 0 and 9, don't know which one exactly but the higher the more chance> will print the error messages on the console
18:58<xmakina>Rubidium: -d being a startup argument?
18:59<@Rubidium>yes
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>you can change debug levels from the console, too
18:59<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but does that spawn the console on Windows?
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea
19:00<xmakina>Eddi|zuHause: how?
19:00-!-Zuu [~Zuu@S0106000f3d50466b.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>help?
19:01<xmakina>Rubidium: just tried it with the console window - the line breaks in all the wrong places mean make it harder to follow. cheers anyway
19:01<DaleStan><Eddi|zuHause> they ship gcc4 with cygwin nowadays? <-- gcc3 and 4 are available for cygwin. I installed 4 and discovered (A) 4 didn't have -mno-cygwin, and (B) 3 won't work if 4 is installed. I uninstalled 4.
19:01<xmakina>Eddi|zuHause: have you looked at consoles help? it's not very.
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19:03<xmakina>no worries - i'll drop a request on suggestions and until then a bit of squinting isn't going to kill me :P
19:05<DaleStan>Is it a problem if I can make sense of the diff between two diffs?
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>yes. means you have level 4 insanity
19:05<Dragoon_Jett>What year do monorails come
19:06<DaleStan>That depends on the vehicle set.
19:06<Dragoon_Jett>How can I tell which vehicle set
19:06<Dragoon_Jett>im using
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>check the newgrf settings
19:07<Dragoon_Jett>generic tram set
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>that won't affect monorail ;)
19:07<Dragoon_Jett>So which year :)
19:07<DaleStan>You're most likely using the default vehicles, so somewhere around 2001. I think.
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't played with the default vehicles in years
19:08<@Rubidium>DaleStan: did grfmrgc.bin not link for you? If so, changing the .os to .o in "grfmrgc.bin:grfmerge.o $(GRFMERGESRC:%.c=%.o)" makes it compile
19:08<@Rubidium>(both ".os"s)
19:08<Zuu>I think it is later than 2001 but could be wrong.
19:08<DaleStan>It didn't link because -mno-cygwin objects were being linked with a -mcygwin linker.
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>times are randomised around 2 years
19:08<DaleStan>Or maybe vice-versa.\
19:09-!-carl^ [~carl^@gw1.pipeten-w2-c3.w2net.net] has joined #openttd
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>i hate disassembling computers... you always step on leftover screws afterwards
19:09<carl^>whoa, way more people than I expected here
19:10<xmakina>Eddi|zuHause: but at least those screws come in handy when a cheapskate manufacturer sells you a hard disk sans the screws for it
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>xmakina: yeah, i have a whole box of those...
19:10<Dragoon_Jett>How long is one game year in real time
19:11<@Belugas>don't talk to Eddi|zuHause about Hard disks...
19:11<@Rubidium>Dragoon_Jett: days in year * 2.220 s
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19:12<@Belugas>which is to say, a day lasts about 2.220 seconds in real life. why? you want to nkow how many minutes lest before sleeping time? to tv show?
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>something around 15 minutes
19:13<Dragoon_Jett>I want to know how long till monorales
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>i want a new computer
19:13<xmakina>Dragoon_Jett: high speed is your bestest friend if you're waiting for something to happen
19:14<Dragoon_Jett>im multiplayer
19:14<xmakina>then a cup of tea is your best friend
19:14<xmakina>:)
19:14<Sacro>oh yes
19:15<Sacro><3 cups of tea
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>i once read a theory about correlation of time dilation and rate of entropy change ;)
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>meaning time runs slower if you wait for something to happen, and faster when you actually do something
19:15<carl^>like waiting for moneyz in multiplayer to expand
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>"sacro is less than 3 cups of tea"?
19:16<Sacro>yes
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19:19<Dragoon_Jett>10 more years till 2000
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>strange, i am already in year 2009
19:23<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Some people are perpeptually in the past
19:25<@Rubidium>DaleStan: http://rbijker.net/openttd/fix_cygwin.diff fixes it for me
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20:44<DaleStan>Rubidium: Does your system need -D__CYGWIN__? Mine is fine as long as I have both -DMINGW and -mno-cygwin.
20:45<@Rubidium>DaleStan: yes, after I uninstalled gcc4 and installed gcc3
20:45<@Rubidium>it fixes the linking issue I was having
20:46<DaleStan>*shrugs* OK. I'll put it in, then.
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20:49<@Rubidium>I'll do a final check whether maybe MINGW added enough so __CYGWIN__ isn't needed
20:50<@Rubidium>hmm, MINGW does the trick too... odd
20:50<@Rubidium>so __CYGWIN__ isn't needed after all
20:50<@Rubidium>what does -DMINGW do for magic that it does the same as __CYGWIN__ for linking?
20:51*Rubidium is so happy that he doesn't have to support the windows compilers for OpenTTD ;)
20:51<DaleStan>Well, the code uses MINGW/_MSC_VER/<none-of-the-above> to decide which files to #include; maybe one of them #defines __CYGWIN__?
20:52<@Rubidium>that's plausible
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21:11<@Rubidium>DaleStan: is there a reason that grfcodec's %.os : %.c rule uses -MD and the %.o : %.c(c) rules use -MMD? Or are they meant to be the same?
21:12<DaleStan>I think they're meant to be the same.
21:14*Rubidium is off trying to get some sleep; night
21:15<DaleStan>The Makefile changes should be committed by the time you get up, then.
21:15<DaleStan>Good night.
21:15<DaleStan>And thanks again for your work, Rubidium.
21:15<Dragoon_Jett>For trains climbing mountains would it be faster for the train to climb two levels at once or two levels and lets say four sqaures inbeteen each height changes
21:16<DaleStan>I've always been fond of the "try it and see" system. May I recommend it to you?
21:16<Dragoon_Jett>Hmm yes that works too
21:16<Dragoon_Jett>So when I want to see if wood burns should I trust other people or just try it?
21:17<Dragoon_Jett>Ive never seen a gun kill someone should I try it, or trust the news and other peoples knowledge
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21:18<DaleStan>Depends on whether or not you want to know whether or not wood in general burns (Do train climb slopes?) or whether that particular log will burn well. (Which slope is climbed faster?)
21:19<Dragoon_Jett>Which slope is climbed faster
21:19<Dragoon_Jett>For trains climbing mountains would it be faster for the train to climb two levels at once or two levels and lets say four sqaures inbeteen each height changes
21:19<Dragoon_Jett>climbing mountains would it be faster for the train to climb two levels
21:19<Dragoon_Jett>would it be faster for the train
21:19<Dragoon_Jett>faster
21:20<DaleStan>Then try it and see. I can't tell you if a log I have never seen will burn well, and I can't determine the results of an experiment I've never performed any faster than you can.
21:20<Dragoon_Jett>Thanks, I will ask when a bunch of pricks are not on.
21:21<DaleStan>Or you could try it again when you have a Smart Question: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
21:22<Dragoon_Jett>Choose your forum carefully
21:22<Dragoon_Jett>Oh yes well since I am on IRC and dont have a forums account
21:23<Dragoon_Jett>Web and IRC forums directed towards newbies often give the quickest response
21:23<Dragoon_Jett>Oh look the only irc channel I know of for openttd
21:23<Dragoon_Jett>Write in clear, grammatical, correctly-spelled language
21:23<Dragoon_Jett>Did that
21:23<Dragoon_Jett>Describe the problem's symptoms, not your guesses
21:23<Dragoon_Jett>Did that
21:23<Dragoon_Jett>Describe the goal, not the step
21:23<Dragoon_Jett>Did that
21:24<Dragoon_Jett>It would have been quicker to say, hey just level some land between the hight changes or no dont
21:24<Dragoon_Jett>Than trying to prove a stupid point
21:25<DaleStan>It would have been faster for me to start OpenTTD, build two trains, build some track, send them up the track, record the results, and repeat for every possible train length and weight?
21:25<DaleStan>How do you figure?
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21:27<Dragoon_Jett>No...Not really
21:28<Dragoon_Jett>Since I have different weights different trains etc etc going along that track and trying it would well I THOUGHT it would be quicker to just ask some veterns
21:28<Dragoon_Jett>Than disrupt my trains
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---Logclosed Sun Aug 02 00:00:10 2009