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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-08-12

---Logopened Wed Aug 12 00:00:57 2009
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01:26<LordAzamath>Just wanted to discuss it before making a feature request at Flyspray. Would it be possible to change the intro letters OPENTTD so they'd be some certain distance in pixels from eachother not just defined positions
01:27<LordAzamath>So if I don't have exactly the same width text than in trgir then the letter distance would still remain same
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03:47<planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=809463#p809463 <-- btw... why not actually get rid of the "engine pool setting", and just enable it always, converting old savegames upon load? (Dunno how difficult that might be, though)
03:47<planetmaker>oh, and good morning #openttd
03:47<planetmaker>:-)
03:49<Rubidium>because that... uhm... force-disables some NewGRFs?
03:50<planetmaker>hm, does it? Like canset?
03:51<planetmaker>hm... which actually?
03:51<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't matter if there actually is such a set. they CAN do it, it's in the specs, so you have to expect that they REALLY do it.
03:52-!-andythenorth [~andy@87.115.14.207.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd
03:52<planetmaker>well, yes, they can... but IMO that's... single-minded. And if no-one uses it...
03:53<Eddi|zuHause>several people have announced that they will do it
03:53<planetmaker>those always-announcers :-P
03:54<planetmaker>(I can only think of two people)
03:54<Rubidium>nevertheless... if we can't switch settings in-game, how are we supposed to switch settings on saveload?
03:54<planetmaker>Rubidium, afaik it's something different to convert right upon load, when the game is not running than when the thing is running?
03:55<planetmaker>iirc it's a proplem with the assignment of the vehicleIDs, as their range / space is handled differently.
03:55<Eddi|zuHause>during the conversion, the game is always "freezed"
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03:55<planetmaker>you'll know that better than me, but before anything runs, a conversion could work, no?
03:56<Eddi|zuHause>there is really no difference to the game state...
03:56<Rubidium>the same way it could work in-game
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03:57<z-MaTRiX>hey-ho
03:57<z-MaTRiX>:)
03:57<planetmaker>Dunno. It just seems easier to me, if you haven't initilized anything yet :-)
03:58<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you have a misconception what the saveload code does...
03:58<Rubidium>well, you've already initialised quite a lot at the stage where you *CAN* actually switch
03:58<planetmaker>certainly possible
03:58<Rubidium>because you also need the vehicle stuff loaded
03:59<planetmaker>hm... true
03:59<Rubidium>which means your like at 90% of the saveload
04:02*petern yawns
04:02<@petern>your like!
04:02<Eddi|zuHause>good morning to you, too ;)
04:02<Eddi|zuHause>like, your morning ;)
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04:10<andythenorth>morning
04:11-!-Chris_Booth_ [~chatzilla@client-82-3-73-134.manc.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd
04:11<andythenorth>So...tractive effort for RVs....I need to calculate this for various vehicles as a new RV physics patch has appeared.
04:12<andythenorth>I could do with a handy rule of thumb for it.
04:12<@petern>make it work for ttdpatch
04:12<andythenorth>I have found the equations for it on Wikipedia, but they need information I don't have.
04:13<andythenorth>Anyone want to help me either wing it, or do the proper maths?
04:13<@petern>it's just mass and power...
04:13<andythenorth>petern: (this is to set values for vehicles in a newgrf set)
04:13<@petern>the maths is done by the engine, heh
04:13<andythenorth>...I have to provide a TE value in the newgrf
04:13<@petern>you should just need to set approximate real world values
04:14<@petern>then tweak them
04:14<@petern>no you don't
04:14<@petern>there's a default value
04:14<@petern>or should be
04:14<andythenorth>well I like that answer as it involves me doing less work...which is...better
04:15<Eddi|zuHause>a max TE like the one for engines shouldn't be needed imho. except you want to start vehicles on mud or sand...
04:16<planetmaker>like HEQS? :-)
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>rubber on asphalt has a really high friction ;)
04:16<andythenorth>is it a factor of adhesion in any way? i.e. does a 6x4 truck have a greater TE than a 6x2 truck?
04:16<andythenorth>i.e. more driven wheels on the 6x4 truck
04:16<planetmaker>TE = weight * factor_of_adhesion
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04:17<planetmaker>*max_TE
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04:17<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: adhesive weight != vehicle weight
04:17<planetmaker>but the engine might have way less power :-)
04:17<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, ?
04:17<andythenorth>he :) this is fun
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>adhesive weight is only the fraction of the weight that pushes on the powered axles
04:17<planetmaker>well, yes, true. Thx
04:18<@petern>"factor_of_adhesion" is the "tractive effort coefficient" that newgrf/nfo uses
04:18<andythenorth>so case of more powered axles for same HP && same weight == more TE?
04:19<planetmaker>andythenorth, no. TE = overall weight on powered axles * factor_of_adhesion
04:19<planetmaker>a powered axle without additional weight on it won't ever add any TE
04:20<andythenorth>does that assume all powered axles will slip at the same point?
04:20<andythenorth>in an idealised scenario?
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: imho in most cases, the engine is never able to deliver enough force to outgrow the theoretical max TE induced by the friction
04:22<planetmaker>with differential gears
04:22<Eddi|zuHause>i have never seen a truck starting with "squeaking tires"
04:22<@petern>erm
04:22<andythenorth>I have seen a truck spinout on a hill...
04:22<andythenorth>smoke...
04:22<andythenorth>noise...
04:22<andythenorth>drama...
04:22<@petern>http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/MAKSAR 2008 PRESS SHOT.JPG
04:22<planetmaker>that's something else. But starting from 0km/h
04:22<@petern>i bet that could
04:23<@petern>(yes, i know ;))
04:23<andythenorth>ah, another BLB fan :)
04:23<planetmaker>he... no objections that that truck without trailer could
04:24<@petern>planetmaker, i'd object to the idea that that 'truck' could carry a trailer
04:24<@petern>andythenorth, fraid not, just via google images
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04:26<@petern>http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/16x16.jpg
04:26<@petern>yum
04:26<planetmaker>er... yeah.
04:27<andythenorth>ok, so I am using Terkhen's RV acceleration patch, the TE values I am seeing are simply calculated. Makes sense now. I thought I'd set them somewhere...(smacks head)
04:27<andythenorth>Why would I ever bother changing TE? Case of bulldozers perhaps?
04:27<andythenorth>Case of new roadtypes with different friction properties?
04:28<planetmaker>the capability to tow weight up hill and to accelerate is limited by TE
04:28<planetmaker>(or can be)
04:28<andythenorth>but for a 'standard' truck on rubber tyres, on a 'standard' road, I'd need a special reason to bother setting TE explicity?
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>it's maybe relevant for trams
04:29<planetmaker>while power does certainly limit the max velocity, but also max acceleration
04:30<Eddi|zuHause>max velocity of road vehicles is usually limited by outside circumstances (reaction time/braking distance)
04:31<andythenorth>ok interesting.
04:31<Eddi|zuHause>which is usually governed by speed limits
04:31<andythenorth>Testing some more...think I need to look at unladen weight somewhere. I'm getting inconsistent TE values
04:31<planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=807511#p807511 <-- Eddi|zuHause seems like there's a somewhat current version around of that patch. But I have never tested any version
04:32<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i don't really trust updates by people other than the original creator...
04:32<planetmaker>aha
04:35<andythenorth>http://paste.openttd.org/191193
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04:50<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: so why do you trust the original author? ;)
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>valhallasw: there is a huge difference between designing and implementing a patch, then handing over development to another person, and picking up an abandoned patch and hacking it so it applies to a newer revision
04:53<valhallasw>point
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>independently from the quality of the original patch, the second way is not going to improve it.
04:55<valhallasw>yeah
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05:03<planetmaker>andythenorth, when you split files to new files, mind to add the new files to the repo.
05:03<planetmaker>you keep forgetting that and heqs will fail to compile everywhere but at your place
05:04<Eddi|zuHause>valhallasw: if someone was to seriously pick up development on the patch, he should start with the original patch-queue, and not hack the published patch
05:04<planetmaker>gah, wrong channel :-P
05:05<Eddi|zuHause>imho, the original patch should have focused earlier on getting a trunk inclusion, instead of adding more and more features
05:06<Eddi|zuHause>i mean stuff like the synchronised clock, without all that advanced autospacing stuff
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05:12<fjb>Hello
05:19<Rubidium>all those inferior patches in trunk ;)
05:20<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: though I agree about ITiM
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06:22<TrueBrain>burp
06:22<oxblood>hey any1 one on that could give me a little bit of help findin the link to dl AI ?
06:23<TrueBrain>use the ingame Content Service
06:24<fjb>And use a spellchecker.
06:25<Rubidium>"oh shutup spell" is an invalid spell; spell not cast
06:26<TrueBrain>@mode +q fjb
06:26-!-mode/#openttd [+q fjb!*@*] by DorpsGek
06:26<TrueBrain>spell works for me!
06:26<TrueBrain>you should practice more, young one
06:26<Rubidium>fjb: for what it's worth... it's spell checker
06:26-!-mode/#openttd [-q fjb!*@*] by DorpsGek
06:28<TrueBrain>oxblood: found what you are looking for? The ingame Content Service allows you to download alot of AIs.
06:28<oxblood>is it on the website
06:29<TrueBrain>there is a lot on many websites; care to be slightly more specific?
06:29<oxblood>ive looked in game for "content servise" cant find it
06:29<blathijs>oxblood: There is a button in the game ("Download content" or something similar") that allows you to download AIs from within openttd. No websites involved
06:30<blathijs>oxblood: Which version are you running?
06:30<oxblood>0.7.2
06:30<Rubidium>TrueBrain: ever seen ghotit.com?
06:30<TrueBrain>start the game, and look at the buttons :)
06:30<oxblood>yerp cheers was in a game lookin for it
06:31<oxblood>i see it now thx guys
06:31<TrueBrain>Rubidium: what about it? :)
06:31<TrueBrain>oxblood: enjoy
06:31<Rubidium>TrueBrain: http://www.ghotit.com/free_service.shtml <- see the spell checker there :)
06:31<blathijs>TrueBrain: Perhaps we should create a wiki page about the download service, with screenshots with big arrows :-)
06:31<TrueBrain>blathijs: isn't there already?
06:32<blathijs>dunno, didn't find it searching for "download" and "content download"
06:32<TrueBrain>Rubidium: pressing 'Check spelling' doesn't really make it more readable :p
06:32<blathijs>oh wait
06:32<Rubidium>TrueBrain: click on the words
06:32<blathijs>Hmm, I've found "Content_Service", which talks about uploading content
06:32<TrueBrain>uselss :p
06:32<Rubidium>blathijs: http://wiki.openttd.org/Online_content
06:33<TrueBrain>so we need to remember 'http://wiki.openttd.org/Online_content' :)
06:33<TrueBrain>nice, that 'feature available' thingy
06:33<blathijs>Rubidium: yeah, just found it
06:33<TrueBrain>no page about IPv6 :(
06:33<blathijs>TrueBrain: Didn't we have a bot for remembering urls?
06:34<blathijs>So we can see @about content or something?
06:34<TrueBrain>DorpsGek is dying
06:34<TrueBrain>not much worth of a bot nowedays
06:34<TrueBrain>@help about
06:34<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Error: There is no command "about".
06:35<blathijs>TrueBrain: Hmm, there is something funny with the openttd plugin
06:35<blathijs>DorpsGek: help openttd download
06:35<@DorpsGek>blathijs: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
06:35<Rubidium>not much of a bot? it's on the 5th place on memory usage (in top)
06:35<TrueBrain>exactly .. it is on my long list of: replace me!
06:36<blathijs>:-)
06:36<TrueBrain>blathijs: openttd module doens't have any help :p
06:36<TrueBrain>either way .. I can't find a good replacement IRC thingy, besides writing one myself :s
06:36<SmatZ>it's helpless
06:37<blathijs>TrueBrain: I've heard that gozerbot is pretty ok
06:38<blathijs>TrueBrain: And from a quick glance at their hg repository, it looks maintained
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06:44<Eddi|zuHause>after wt3 do a dorpsgek3?
06:44<TrueBrain>well, we can test it :)
06:45<TrueBrain>but I always get lost in the endless stream of available shit
06:49<TrueBrain>damn, it is S L O W
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06:50<TrueBrain>what ever ....
06:50-!-Q_A [~Q_A@145.118.72.64] has joined #openttd
06:50<TrueBrain>I once wrote this ^^
06:50-!-Exl [~myself@cp1224652-a.roemd1.lb.home.nl] has joined #openttd
06:50<TrueBrain>!reply you
06:50<Q_A>you
06:51<TrueBrain>!quit bye
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06:52<SmatZ>exit message fail
06:52<TrueBrain>yup
06:52<TrueBrain>you can't have it all :)
06:52<SmatZ>:)
06:53*SmatZ wants it all and wants it now
06:53*TrueBrain gives SmatZ 'all'
06:53<SmatZ>thanks :)
06:53<TrueBrain>you are welcome
06:54<TrueBrain>second night in row that I wake up at 04:30, because my neighbour is fucking his girl
06:54<TrueBrain>I somehow dislike that
06:55<SmatZ>:(
06:55<valhallasw>disadvantage of student housing :p
06:55<SmatZ>wake your neighbour at 02:00 by fucking your girl
06:55<SmatZ>*having sex
06:55<valhallasw>especially those nice towers :p
06:55<Noldo>or better yet, his girl
06:56<TrueBrain>SmatZ: euh .. he isn't home then :p
06:56<TrueBrain>he comes in at 04:30
06:56<SmatZ>uh
06:56<TrueBrain>hmm .. his girl .. she is .. doable :p
06:56<SmatZ>:-D
06:56<TrueBrain>I somehow also wonder if it is his girl .. as she is mostly already in bed by then ...
06:57<Rubidium>TrueBrain: just place some boxes directly against the wall and play those intensly faked orgasms
06:58<TrueBrain>well .. then all my other neighbours thing I am the pervert
06:58<SmatZ>:-D
06:58<SmatZ>*they finally find out the truth
06:58<TrueBrain>and I Thought I was the mean person here :p
06:59<TrueBrain>thing = think btw
06:59<planetmaker>haha
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07:05<TrueBrain>had to register the name ;)
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07:20<dihedral>lol
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07:29*dihedral burps
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08:16<Eddi|zuHause>hm... someone told me there came out a new part of monkey island
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>anybody knows about this?
08:17<TrueBrain>the left center part :p
08:18<SmatZ>:)
08:20<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.lucasarts.com/games/monkeyisland/ <-- this ?
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08:22<+glx>there's also http://www.telltalegames.com/monkeyisland
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>and of course the page renders incorrectly...
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>"Zurück durch populäre Nachfrage, Das Geheimnis von Monkey Island ™ Special Edition getreu wieder, das die international renommierte klassische Spiel (ursprünglich veröffentlicht in 1990) für die ursprüngliche und neue Publikum. Der Entwicklungs-Team bei LucasArts bringt das Spiel in die Moderne mit einer neuen Re-imagined zeitgenössische Kunst Stil, ein Re-mastered musikalischen Ergebnis, VoiceOver voll, und eine eingehende Tipp-
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>System, um Spieler durch das Spiel der Seite Splitting-Puzzles. Puristen wird auch Freude an die Fähigkeit, sich nahtlos zwischen die Aktualisierung von Hand erstellt Re-Imagining und die ursprüngliche klassische Version."
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>ok... someone threw that through google translator...
08:27<TrueBrain>hmm
08:27<TrueBrain>german
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>that is NOT german.
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08:28<TrueBrain>either way, it is not english :p
08:28<OwenS>TrueBrain: Actually someo f it is :p
08:29<TrueBrain>in the dutch language are also english words
08:29<TrueBrain>so? :P
08:29<OwenS>"VoiceOver" "system" "Splitting-Puzzles". I'd guess System may be common... but the other two? :p
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, it sounds like they just redid the plot of the first game with new graphics...
08:30<OwenS>Thats what I've heard
08:31<OwenS>Except it has a classic mode so you can switch back to the original graphics and get nostalgic :p
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08:32<+glx>the other link is a new adventure
08:32-!-ecke [~ecke@213.195.202.11] has joined #openttd
08:32<+glx>with 3D graphics (like they did for sam & max)
08:34<TrueBrain>... my neighbour is awake
08:34<TrueBrain>his girl too
08:34<TrueBrain>I can tell
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>the second link says connection refused
08:35<+glx>and in 5 chapters
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08:42<Eddi|zuHause>really, the telltale site doesn't load...
08:43<+glx>maybe it's blocked for germans
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>hm... fifth time is the charm...
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09:12<TrueBrain>pompiedom
09:14<Eddi|zuHause># Angels with silver wings
09:14<Eddi|zuHause># shouldn't know suffering
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10:11<TrueBrain>lovely .. someone committed an utf-8 filename in a subversion repos
10:12<TrueBrain>now I can't do a checkout (my FS doens't support it)
10:12<TrueBrain>and he can't remove it
10:12<TrueBrain>...
10:12<+glx>nice
10:12<+glx>who did that?
10:12<TrueBrain>not this SVN
10:15<dihedral>svn rm http.....
10:15<TrueBrain>tried
10:15<dihedral>there are a few tools that should be able to do that
10:15<TrueBrain>but I can't type the utf-8 char :p
10:15<dihedral>that's what i mean with 'there are a few tools that should .....'
10:16<dihedral>why on earth does your console not support utf-8?
10:16-!-Zahl [~Zahl@g226136042.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
10:16<TrueBrain>because I HATE UTF-8!
10:16<SpComb>AND UTF-8 HATES YOU!
10:16<SpComb>have some UTF-8: âêîôû
10:17<TrueBrain>@base 10 16 195
10:17<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: C3
10:17<TrueBrain>@base 10 16 1115
10:17<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 45B
10:17<TrueBrain>@base 10 16 115
10:17<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 73
10:17<dihedral>besides, it's http hosted, right?
10:17<dihedral>you should be able to get the char with svn ls, or use the \u notation
10:18<dihedral>in the url
10:18<TrueBrain>"200?\195?\15115" <- yeah, sure mister SVN
10:19<dihedral>:-D
10:22<TrueBrain>I just lvoe the fact that you cant remove the file on the system that committed it
10:22<TrueBrain>"file does not exist"
10:22<TrueBrain>really ...
10:25<blathijs>interesting...
10:26-!-Elton09592 [~Delphi@189.82.146.27] has joined #openttd
10:26<TrueBrain>even via remote, it claims the file does not exist
10:26<TrueBrain>ha, found a nasty way :)
10:28<Eddi|zuHause><TrueBrain> because I HATE UTF-8! <- you can use UTF-16 if you like that more :p
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>gives better compression if you use majorly chinese characters ;)
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>hm... dd_rescue is awfully slow...
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>avg. rate: 6kB/s ... at that speed i can just download the file :p
10:30<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: UTF-16 gives better compression with most non-latin languages. And is also significantly faster
10:31<_ln>but does it work on IRC?
10:31<OwenS>UTF-16 doesn't AFAIK
10:31<TrueBrain>IRC indeed blocks all UTF-16 ....
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>why wouldn't it?
10:32<TrueBrain>(really .. sometimes I wonder about the intelligence of questions)
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10:32<@petern>did he just send utf-16...?
10:32<TrueBrain>lol
10:32<OwenS>If he did it would just come through as crap since IRC assumes characters are 8-bit :p
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10:32<OwenS>wouldn't it block it or wouldn't it work?
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>strike!
10:33<TrueBrain>OwenS: why would IRC interpert the data?!
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise called "segfault"...
10:33<TrueBrain>it is our clients which do or do not support it
10:33<@petern>Eddi|zuHause, utf-16, eh?
10:33<OwenS>TrueBrain: Because names come through as 8-bit characters
10:33<_ln>TrueBrain: does UTF-16 contain all byte values 0..255, and if yes, does IRC support all of those?
10:33<OwenS>Remember IRC doesn't contain a charset identifier - it was designed for ASCII
10:33<TrueBrain>after the : is raw send
10:34<TrueBrain>fair enoguh, I think a 00 makes it stop
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>well, obviously konversation crashes...
10:34<TrueBrain>hehe :) No real suprise :p
10:34<OwenS>TrueBrain: So it would work for non-ascii characters :p
10:34<_ln>OwenS: not entirely true, it was more like designed for ISO-something, the one where ä is {, etc.
10:34<TrueBrain>OwenS: yes
10:34<dihedral>trallalla
10:35<TrueBrain>given that ASCII goes to 127, yes
10:35<OwenS>TrueBrain: Or actually not since you'd get an odd number of output bytes:p
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't IRC invented by a finnish guy?
10:35<@petern>you can send utf-16, as long as there's no 00 byte in it
10:35<_ln>Eddi|zuHause: it was.
10:35<@petern>that is not all that likely
10:35<TrueBrain>petern: and I guess a \n char will kill it too
10:35<OwenS>Yes but the terminator will get truncated
10:35<@petern>or a space...
10:35<TrueBrain>[16:35] <OwenS> TrueBrain: Or actually not since you'd get an odd number of output bytes:p <- QUE?
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>don't they have ä's, too?
10:36<TrueBrain>after a :, spaces are alllowed
10:36<@petern>a space is "00 20" (or "20 00" depending)
10:36<TrueBrain>so 00 is the problem ;)
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10:37<_ln>Eddi|zuHause: finnish has ä and ö of non-ASCII, (and kind of also š and ž, but very few people use those).
10:37<@petern>you could make openttd a bit simpler by using ucs-4 :D
10:38<OwenS>UCS-4 is 40% wasted bits...
10:38<Rubidium>yup, would mean talking to icu is easier
10:38-!-__ln [~lanurm@castor.utu.fi] has joined #openttd
10:38<OwenS>Huh? ICU works in UTF-16
10:38<TrueBrain>lets par2 encode all conversations
10:38<__ln>þÿ
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10:39<__ln>þÿ
10:39<_ln>ok, that was UTF-16.
10:39<TrueBrain>nobody crashed
10:39<+glx>2 squares :)
10:39<TrueBrain>and suprise suprise, IRC allowed it
10:40<TrueBrain>a þ and a ÿ here
10:40<_ln>here too, but what i wrote was 17:38 < __ln> testing one two sixteen...
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>i saw a þ and a ÿ
10:40<SmatZ>encoding that allows \0 as non-terminal byte is bad
10:40<TrueBrain>I agree with SmatZ
10:41<Rubidium>OwenS: not if you use UChar32
10:41<_ln>i guess this proves that if any of you chooses to migrate to UTF-16 on irc, you may encounter even more resistance than with UTF-8.
10:41<OwenS>I think I run UTF-8 anyway
10:42<TrueBrain>sadly enough, I do :(
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10:42<OwenS>Anyway, you'd need everyone else to use UTF-16 for it to work :p
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10:43<OwenS>And Rubidium: Most of the ICU API runs on UChars
10:44<Rubidium>they shouldn't!
10:44<Rubidium>ofcourse... someone had thought about being (bug) compatible with MS again
10:44<OwenS>Why? UCS-4 is generally slower and not much easier to work with
10:45-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77D8F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: testing]
10:45<Rubidium>those poor people using characters outside of the first 16 bit plane
10:45<OwenS>It's UTF-16. It supports them!
10:45<SmatZ>쎾쎿
10:46<+glx>SmatZ: chinese?
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10:46<OwenS>The ICU API actually includes functions for iterating over UTF-16 which returns a UChar32 which it decodes from the surrogate pairs if needed
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10:46<SmatZ>glx: that's what I got when decoding __ln's post as UTF-16
10:46<SmatZ>probably failed...
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11:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17158 /branches/0.7/ (14 files in 7 dirs): (log message trimmed)
11:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
11:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Some typos in .obg stuff (r17136)
11:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Mark industry tiles dirty when trigger are triggered (r17118)
11:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Squirrel_export.sh failed for some locales (r17109)
11:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Make restart command work again and make the help show how it works and how it does not work [FS#3092] (r17097)
11:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Make ParseStringChoice a bit safer (r17095)
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11:31<Eddi|zuHause>err... did that guy really say he is using a computer from 1996?
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11:33<TrueBrain>that guy?
11:33<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yes!
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=809492#p809492
11:34<TrueBrain>hehe
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11:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17159 /extra/website/bananas/views.py: [website] -Fix: some typos in BaNaNaS' backend
11:35<TrueBrain>I always wonder if they truly don't have the money to buy something slightly better :p
11:36*Rubidium wonders... slightly better computer you rarely use vs. going on vacation
11:37<TrueBrain>for 50 euro you can't go on a vacation
11:37<Rubidium>for that amount you can't buy a slightly better computer
11:38<TrueBrain>from one out 1996? Sure you can
11:38<TrueBrain>try www.ebay.com
11:38<Rubidium>1996 computer => upgrading parts almost equals new computer
11:39<TrueBrain>http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-SFF-XP-Pro-desktop-computer-PC-8303-MMU-1-8_W0QQitemZ120458085401QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDesktop_PCs?hash=item1c0bdc8419&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
11:39<TrueBrain>there you go
11:39<TrueBrain>50 dollar
11:39<TrueBrain>and I am very sure your local computer shop can do that too
11:40<TrueBrain>(no, not the big-names computer shop, your local not-so-known :p)
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11:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17160 /branches/0.7/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
11:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
11:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: A stuck train could free the reservation of another train if it was reversed or did crash (r17152)
11:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: A train entering a PBS section through a block signal could cause a train crash if another reservation ending at a safe tile was already present in the section [FS#3104] (r17151)
11:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Update vehicle position cache when the vehicle sprite changes [FS#3060] (r17121)
11:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: News message about ordered refits failing was not very clear [FS#3091] (r17096)
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12:11<andythenorth>RV improved acceleration: should I bother setting air drag for HEQS vehicles? A large dump truck doesn't go fast enough that air drag should matter much. On the other hand it's shaped like a brick.
12:12<andythenorth>A brick with sticky out, vortext-inducing, draggy shapes stuck on...
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12:14<Eddi|zuHause>and if i tune my bulldozer so it goes 200km/h down the autobahn? :p
12:15<andythenorth>if? You mean you haven't already?
12:15<Rubidium>then the government can rebuild all bridges :)
12:16<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: That would be an impressive sight
12:16<OwenS>Particularly a tracked bulldozer
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>i do not want to drive 160 and have a bulldozer flashlight me from behind :p
12:17<OwenS>lol
12:17<OwenS>I do wish the UK would switch the motorways to metric. Would make things much easier for me
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, mistaking a 130km/h sign to mean 130mph is way cooler than mistaking a 100mph sign to mean 100km/h :p
12:18<andythenorth>so no answer on air drag then 9.9
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>air drag really only becomes an issue once you pass 150km/h
12:19<andythenorth>ahah that's an answer I can use :)
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>which is why trucks are not streamlined
12:20<OwenS>Except to reduce noise
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>it's the same reason why they stopped streamlining steam engines. when they cannot even reach 120 on most tracks, the streamlining does not take any effect, while it heavily increases maintenance effort
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12:27<@petern>woah
12:28<@petern>is airdrag even an option for road vehicle acceleration?
12:28<@petern>it's transport game :s
12:28<@petern>not a bloody sports car simulation...
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12:28<Rubidium>which is why we desperatly need 3 types of train acceleration :)
12:29<@petern>yeah!
12:29<@petern>(what's the 3rd?)
12:29<Rubidium>the one you were working on adding?
12:29<@petern>dunno
12:30<@petern>oh
12:30<@petern>i wanted one that had sensible units ;)
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>how did that go? :p
12:30<@petern>can't expect me to remember everything
12:30<@petern>dunno, got bored with it
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12:33<insulfrog>g2g
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13:05<Eddi|zuHause>"After writing his memoirs, George W. Bush will admit
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>that most of the book was written
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>by the microsoft word paperclip"
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13:09<TrueBrain>lol @ Eddi|zuHause
13:09<OwenS>Have I mentioned how much I can't wait for my new internet connection? :p
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13:10<TrueBrain>OwenS: when will it be there?
13:10<Wolf01>hello
13:10<OwenS>TrueBrain: Monday
13:10<TrueBrain>(and believe me, we can't wait on it either)
13:10<TrueBrain>howdie Wolf01
13:10<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: how can that be? Word may not be sold in Texas
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r17161 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 5 changes by Kwokfu
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 74 changes by Tifached
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 4 changes by SmatZ
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: greek - 75 changes by fumantsu
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13:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17162 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Change: move Greek out of unfinished
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>yay, now i can play with greek translation!
13:49-!-fjb_ is now known as fjb
13:49<Prof_Frink>It's all greek to me.
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14:06<Eddi|zuHause>funnily, in germany, we say the same thing about spanish :p
14:08-!-Chruker [~no@port113.ds1-vj.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #openttd
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>apparently, you people did not have a greek speaking ruler in the 10th century ;)
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>a woman, nonetheless!
14:16<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: We also use the term "Pardon my french" to excuse swearing... languages are funny :p
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophanu
14:21<TrueBrain>lalalalaaaaaa
14:21<Xaroth>lalalaaa?
14:22<TrueBrain>I have all these stat-files, and somehow I need to process them .. and C is not the best language to do such processing :p
14:22<TrueBrain>annoying
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>use python ;)
14:22<TrueBrain>well .. no :p
14:22<planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=809607#p809607 <-- how cute :-)
14:22<Xaroth>use C# :P
14:22<TrueBrain>again I have to say no :p
14:22<Xaroth>:P
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>real programmers use cobol :p
14:23<TrueBrain>my whole app is already in C and C++
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>or better: algol
14:23<TrueBrain>I don't feel like spoiling that by adding another language :p
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>the language that never had a complete compiler :p
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>algol had like every feature the people could imagine at that time...
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>you could do object oriented programming in it, even though that wasn't even invented yet
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>basically, pascal was invented by cutting features from algol
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>and c was invented by cutting features from algol and replacing begin/end by {}
14:27<TrueBrain>and aliens were our grand-grand parents :p
14:27<TrueBrain>hihi
14:27<frosch123>c was invented because someone did not knew what to do with ! " $ % & and such
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>well, they had to cut features because it was really impossible to build a compiler...
14:29<TrueBrain>2 years ago I had to learn which language came from which and why and blabla
14:29<TrueBrain>can't remember a single letter from it :p
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>really? i have that complete tree in my brain ;)
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>even though i have probably had less looks at it than you ;)
14:30<TrueBrain>the tree I looked over twice
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>see ;)
14:30<frosch123>where is sed in that tree?
14:30<TrueBrain>but that was because it was on the same page as some interesting story :)
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it did not really list _all_ languages
14:31<frosch123>but, it is my favorite language :(
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>when it would say "regular expressions", that includes all derivatives like grep, sed, vim...
14:32<TrueBrain>http://www.comphist.org/computing_history/new_page_12_files/image002.gif
14:32<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: grep is not turing complete to my knowledge
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>regular expressions are not turing complete
14:33<Sacro>yes they are
14:33<frosch123>but sed is
14:34<frosch123>TrueBrain: how can someone invent fortran 77 in 78?
14:34<TrueBrain>frosch123: why you ask me? Eddi|zuHause knows this tree!
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, my one looked slightly different ;)
14:35<TrueBrain>3 entries: ALGON, PASCAL and C?
14:35<TrueBrain>cheater
14:35-!-Wikie [~Wikie@79.117.158.170] has joined #openttd
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14:35<frosch123>at least ADA should be at the top
14:35<Wikie>hi
14:35<TrueBrain>hello Wikie
14:36<TrueBrain>you are not a Viking I hope?
14:36<Wikie>nah
14:36-!-Elton06053 [~Delphi@189.82.164.76] has joined #openttd
14:36<TrueBrain>then what can we do for you?
14:36<Uberzten>im am a viking
14:36<Wikie>I'm the old Desolator/Madassasin from TT-Forums, if you still remember me.
14:36<Wikie>For some reason I got interested into continuing my old OTTD updater...
14:37<Xaroth>another updater \o/
14:37<Xaroth>join the club :)
14:37<TrueBrain>you cant have enough of those ;)
14:37<Wikie>I'm here to ask what chances it would have to become an "official" one?
14:37<Wikie>yea :P
14:37<Wikie>I saw another two that appeared since I discontinued mine.
14:37<TrueBrain>I would say: zero. Mostly as there are more out there; what would make yours better than the others?
14:38<Wikie>dunno if the others are protable, but I intend to make this one portable using Qt
14:38<Wikie>*portable
14:38<Xaroth>mine is portable
14:38<Wikie>To what platforms?
14:38<TrueBrain>then they make it Qt compatible; doesn't give an argument why yours should be official, and theirs not :)
14:38<Xaroth>everything that runs .net or mono?
14:39<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: Build an updater into ottd and send updates via bananas?
14:39<Xaroth>but I never worked on the unix systems because they have funky shell scripts anyhow
14:39<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: no thank you
14:39*Wikie gives a cookie to anyone but Xaroth for using an evil framework.
14:39<Wikie>*everyone
14:39<Xaroth>Wikie: You're using Qt.
14:39<TrueBrain>so we get a cookie every time someone else uses .NET ..
14:39<TrueBrain>cool ;)
14:40<Prof_Frink>Qt is cute. Cute things are not evil.
14:40<Wikie>Xaroth, it's not MS; It's not *HUGE*; It can be linked statically; It's free software.
14:40<Rubidium>ssht... heh TrueBrain, did you know that those guys at OpenTTD use .NET too?
14:40<Xaroth>Mono is free
14:40<Wikie>.NET ain't.
14:40<Xaroth>it's not?
14:40<Xaroth>i don't recall ever paying for it
14:41<Xaroth>heck they even removed WGA from it
14:41<TrueBrain>COOKIES!!!!
14:41<Wikie>I mean free as in free speech.
14:41<TrueBrain>don't you mean free beer?
14:41<Xaroth>what does talking have to do with it :P
14:41<TrueBrain>as freedom of speech is .. well .. something different :p
14:42*Wikie facepalms and points Xaroth to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software
14:42<Xaroth>Since when has wikipedia become an official list of anything?
14:42<Wikie>Since IDK.
14:42<Rubidium>what about free (as in speech) ransomware?
14:42<Prof_Frink>Maybe FSF would be better.
14:43<Uberzten>hmm
14:43<Wikie>wiki's good enough
14:43<Xaroth>I don't prefer what M$ did, especially with their versioning after 2.0 .. but it works, and it's easy.
14:43<Xaroth>not to mention i cba learning C :P
14:44<TrueBrain>Wikie: give me a sec, let me change a page ......
14:44<Wikie>TrueBrain, anyway, what chances would have any updater to become official? If any, what would be the requirements?
14:44<TrueBrain>Wikie: didn't I just say that? Zero?
14:44<OwenS>It works? .net doesn't work for me :P
14:44<TrueBrain>or Rubidium need to have a significant other opinion on that matter, but somehow I doubt that :)
14:45<Wikie>At least with Qt you don't need to DL and install a huge library.
14:45<TrueBrain>Wikie: your updater won't be better than the next .. so why would yours be the official, and not the next?
14:45<Wikie>(ignores the fact that it comes prebundled on Vista & 7)
14:45<Xaroth>Wikie: it comes prebundled with just about every recent windows install?
14:45<Wikie>TrueBrain, cause the next isn't written already :P
14:45<TrueBrain>you make really good arguments
14:45<TrueBrain>maybe you should ask me the same question again in 2 minutes
14:45<TrueBrain>I like replying with: zero :)
14:45<Wikie>Xaroth, still more people use XP than Vista.
14:46<Wikie>xD
14:46<Xaroth>SP2 came with .net
14:46<OwenS>No it didn't
14:46<Wikie>Really?
14:46<OwenS>.net has always been optional on XP
14:46<TrueBrain>it is hard to have a Windows computer without .NET .. many basic software wants to install it
14:46<OwenS>Huh? Not really.
14:47<TrueBrain>install MS Office, you get .NET
14:47<Wikie>applies only to 2007
14:47*fjb hat .net on his mobile phone. :-(
14:47<TrueBrain>install <wont name the AV here>, you get .NET
14:47<Xaroth>Install ATI drivers, you get .net
14:47<TrueBrain>and the list goes on and on
14:47<Wikie>norton? norton sucks
14:47<TrueBrain>the installer mostly only needs .NET
14:47<TrueBrain>oh, now we are going to classify the software?
14:48<Wikie>I've yet to see an installer needing .NET.
14:48<fjb>The most stupid thing Microsoft did was chosing the name ".net".
14:48<TrueBrain>maybe you should start up a windows computer
14:48<@petern>TrueBrain, "ms office" is not basic software...
14:48<TrueBrain>petern: depending on the user :p
14:48<Wikie>TrueBrain, I have two of them.
14:48<TrueBrain>fjb: you are so right :)
14:48<@petern>and it certainly isn't a "must install" suite
14:49<Xaroth>Wikie: I really don't think trying to bash other people's choices won't make your choices look any better.
14:49<TrueBrain>either way, off the .. what .. 100 random windows computer sI can access, 90% has .NET installed
14:49<Wikie>Would be kind of stupid: "Hello, it looks like you're using XP. Before you can run the X Setup you must first download .NET. Have a nice day!"
14:49<Xaroth>That's why they invented redistributables
14:49<Xaroth>.. redi..something.. i hate that word
14:50<@petern>i'm pretty sure it gets installed with windows updates
14:50<TrueBrain>I have it all the time .. insert CD .. installing .NET framework ... welcome to setup!
14:50<Xaroth>windows update with standard settings installs 3.5
14:50<TrueBrain>I deinstall it after the install of that software ...
14:50<OwenS>Xaroth: Not the automatic updates. Just update.microsoft.com
14:53<TrueBrain>either way, Wikie, Xaroth is right, bashing others doesn't give any argument why yours should be oh-so-more-special than any other
14:53<Wikie>I'm not using that as an argument.
14:54<OwenS>Qt is probably the widget toolkit which plays nicely with the most desktop environments though
15:04*Wikie digs around the net for the source to his old updater.
15:04<Wikie>Anyone got a least a screenshot of it?
15:06<TrueBrain>why should we? You claim it is yours!
15:06<TrueBrain>http://paste.openttd.org/191197 <- hihi :) My little functions :)
15:06<Wikie>I haven't had the source since umm...a year or two. I've chnaged two computers since then.
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15:17<Nite_Owl>Hello all
15:17<TrueBrain>howdie Nite_Owl
15:17<Nite_Owl>Hello TrueBrain
15:19<TrueBrain>how are you today?
15:20<Nite_Owl>fairly well - and you?
15:20<Nite_Owl>still lost in DOS code madness?
15:20<TrueBrain>yup
15:20<TrueBrain>getting there :)
15:21<TrueBrain>took today a bit of effort to see if we can get some legal status on a OpenDune2 project :)
15:21<TrueBrain>(with a big tnx to Xaroth :))
15:22-!-LordAzamath [~rightwing@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
15:22<blathijs>TrueBrain: Did you get it running?
15:22<TrueBrain>blathijs: yup
15:22<TrueBrain>very well in fact :)
15:22<blathijs>What was the big unfindable problem in the end/
15:23<TrueBrain>hehe
15:23<TrueBrain>a funny one :)
15:23<Rubidium>oh wise Kenobi!
15:23<TrueBrain>every command, ALUs, moves, ... has a sign-extend variant, where you need to sign-extend a byte to a word to do the action on
15:23<TrueBrain>this worked for all ALUs .. but not for 'mov' :p
15:23<TrueBrain>a stupid type ... int16 what should have been int8
15:23<TrueBrain>after fixing that, everything worked flawless :)
15:24<OwenS>TrueBrain: I bet you wish x86 was RISC. Would make your job much easier :p
15:24<TrueBrain>why?
15:25<TrueBrain>there is always some command you fuck up
15:25<OwenS>TrueBrain: Yes. But less instructions to fuck uo :p
15:25<TrueBrain>I find 250 commands not that horrible
15:26<OwenS>The average RISC has about 64 - 100.. quite a bit less
15:27<TrueBrain>no .. I don't think it would have changed much
15:27<TrueBrain>you make mistakes; I made a handful (I believe 4) on 250 commands
15:27<TrueBrain>else it would have been 2 .. still a nag to find
15:28-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@161-18-80-78.strcechy.adsl-llu.static.bluetone.cz] has joined #openttd
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15:31<_ln>Eddi|zuHause: is there a local beer brand or something in Halle?
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>Halle is not exactly known for its beer...
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15:32<_ln>ok...
15:32-!-KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-70-35.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
15:32<planetmaker>you should have Köstrizer there, too :-)
15:32<Xaroth>TrueBrain: :)
15:32<planetmaker>but well... that originates in: Köstritz
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, Köstritzer, Radeberger, Hasseröder
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>Altenburger
15:33<planetmaker>well yeah... but Köstritzer tastes best of them :-)
15:33<_ln>that's four brands i've never heard of
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>i did not argue that ;)
15:33<planetmaker>:-)
15:33-!-Wikie [~Wikie@79.117.158.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:34<planetmaker>hm... dunno about small, local breweries. I know two pretty good ones in Jena
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>you should stay away from Oettinger ;)
15:34<planetmaker>(which is not THAT far)
15:34<planetmaker>urgs. Very much indeed
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: Hasserode is near Wernigerode (Harz), Radeberg is near Dresden
15:35<TrueBrain>http://paste.openttd.org/191199 <- at random I get this message from python :p
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>Altenburg and Köstritz are southwards
15:35<planetmaker>lol @ TrueBrain
15:36<frosch123>Radeberger is east germany's famous beer :p
15:36<planetmaker>is it?
15:36<TrueBrain>it seems to happen when you do 'import this' .. but I don't want to do that :p
15:37<frosch123>well, during my military service you could guess the home of everyone by letting him choose Radeberger or Beck's :p
15:37<planetmaker>haha :-)
15:37<frosch123>(13 years after reunion)
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>Altenburger has these practical *plop* bottles, that you do not need an opener for
15:38-!-oskari89 [oskari89@88.193.124.243] has joined #openttd
15:38<planetmaker>as does Flens
15:38<frosch123>so Altenburger vs. Flensburger :p
15:38<planetmaker>but that's a different region :-)
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but Flensburg is not anywhere close ;)
15:38<planetmaker>depends upon the definition of "close" :-P
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15:39<Eddi|zuHause>it's neither within 200km, nor in east germany ;)
15:39<planetmaker>:-)
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>that should cover most definitions of "close"
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>except the russian one ;)
15:39<planetmaker>I thought about Australian ones. But they might be similar.
15:40<_ln>but Flensburg is close to Denmark!
15:40<frosch123>about as close as you can get
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>not before 1866 ;)
15:40<planetmaker>:-P
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>as it was actually IN denmark then ;(
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>;)
15:42<_ln>the last (and only) time I was in Flensburg, sitting in the car, an old-looking tank passes by on the street.
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>the historic border between the holy roman empire and denmark was the Eider (river near Kiel)
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>until bismarck came along ;)
15:44<frosch123>bismarck? i thought it was started by austria?
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>no, the german-danish war was the first part of bismarcks plot to drive austria out of the german confederation
15:48<Vikthor>But somehow he managed to talk Austria to ally with him against Denmark
15:49*frosch123 always wondered about that, as austria and denmark are so much neighbours
15:49<SmatZ>hello Vikthor :)
15:49<SmatZ>hehe
15:49<Vikthor>a year later or few more after that he declared war on Austria and won
15:49<Vikthor>hi SmatZ
15:49<frosch123>evening smatz
15:50<SmatZ>hello frosch123 :)
15:50<frosch123>welcome to our history lesson :)
15:50<SmatZ>;)
15:51<SmatZ>what, the world wasn't created by God?
15:51<SmatZ>noooooooo
15:51*TrueBrain gives SmatZ a bible
15:51<TrueBrain>that should fix it
15:51<SmatZ>:-)
15:51<Vikthor>God? I thought it was flying spaghetti monster?
15:51<frosch123>no, it was about bismarcks liking flensburg's beer
15:51<SmatZ>:-)
15:51<SmatZ>it's a shame, I have never been good in history
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>german history is full of great stories ;)
15:52<SmatZ>actually, I think conflicts from history shouldn't be used as argument in todays dialogues
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>opposing to other countries' history... like the USA... their history is so boring they need to memorise every single of their presidents in the right order to make it remotely challenging...
15:54<_ln>and their own history is basically all they learn in school, right?
15:54<Wolf01>'night
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15:55<Nite_Owl>in High School yes - at University no
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: yes and no. you should not blame the current citizens for the mistakes of their ancestors, but you should know them to prevent them from repeating
15:56*frosch123 did not learn non-europe history either (except egypt, but that is somehow european)
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15:57<SmatZ>frosch123: and Mesopotamia, China?
15:57<Yexo>good evening
15:57<SmatZ>and both world wars :)
15:57<Nite_Owl>Hello Yexo
15:57<SmatZ>hello Yexo
15:57<Yexo>hi Nite_Owl
15:57<Yexo>hello SmatZ
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: mesopotamia is as european as egypt. and history of china was really neglected
15:57<Vikthor>frosch123: And at least brief history of Americas?
15:57<frosch123>SmatZ: none of them in school; before egypt is iron and stone age
15:58<SmatZ>:)
15:58<SmatZ>early american history is strongly connected with europe :)
15:58<Vikthor>not at all
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>no, that is the late american history
15:58<frosch123>nope, there were three pages about british history in the english lessons, but only about boring stuff like spreading pestilence
15:58<SmatZ>hmm
15:59<SmatZ>depends what you call early and what late :-x
15:59<Nite_Owl>The history of the U.S. is basically one of asking the Native Americans to move over just a bit
15:59-!-Muddy is now known as _Muddy
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>american history is really not that interesting...
15:59-!-_Muddy is now known as Muddy
15:59<Muddy>stupid bnc
15:59<SmatZ>so peaceful? compared to european
15:59<@petern>well it only goes back a couple of decades...
15:59-!-Wikie [~Wikie@79.117.158.170] has joined #openttd
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>for example the french-indian war (which was one of the neglected parts) between france and england was really fought in prussia (and there it was called seven-years-war, or third silesian war)
16:00<Vikthor>petern: If you take American as US history than sure
16:00<frosch123>SmatZ: not peaceful, but less organised
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>and the american civil war i basically only know from the game "north and south"
16:01<Nite_Owl>watch the Ken Burns documentary
16:01*frosch123 knows most us history from colonization context help
16:02<SmatZ>:)
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes, but that does not really cover the time after the independence
16:03<Nite_Owl>like any countries' history it all depends on how deep into it you go
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, history lessons in germany basically revolved around france and germany
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>and their connections with england and russia
16:04*SmatZ wonders what is taught about world wars in germany (esp. the second world war)
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>everything else was only minor notices...
16:04<_ln>there was a second one?!
16:04<SmatZ>:)
16:04<Vikthor>:)
16:04<frosch123>SmatZ: until you throw up
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: they spend basically one whole year on this
16:04<SmatZ>frosch123: ugh :-x
16:05<frosch123>only one?
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>well, in the history lessons
16:05<frosch123>SmatZ: you do not learn anything about past 45 though
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>there are topics in literature and stuff as well ;(
16:05<Vikthor>That's same problem here
16:05<OwenS>In the UK we spend about a year on both world wars (Well, thats in the mandatory part of the curiculum; the optional part I dunno)
16:06<SmatZ>I hope the same things are taught, too, like "germany attacked poland" and not the other way around :)
16:06<Vikthor>There is no time in curicculum for history after WWII
16:06<_ln>an american told #somewhere that a lot of americans believe WW II was about US and Britain forming an alliance with Germany to fight the soviets.
16:06<Prof_Frink>Don't mention the war!
16:06<SmatZ>_ln: uhh
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16:07<frosch123>SmatZ: well, actually I told you wrong, usually it stops at 39
16:07<SmatZ>actually, we were taught hardly anything from 1948-nowadays in History
16:07<SmatZ>frosch123: hehe :)
16:08<Wikie>Xaroth, I get an unhandled exception once I try to refresh the server list in your updater.
16:08<frosch123>hmm, though, maybe also until uk joins
16:08<Prof_Frink>_ln: I doubt that. Americans learn history from films, so WWII was "America saves teh day again!"
16:08<SmatZ>very few things... like "monetary reform" and other very important things, but not detailed...
16:08<Wikie>(I'd launch a debugger but I don't have VC# installed)
16:08<SmatZ>Prof_Frink: well, actually... how far is that from truth? :-p
16:09<SmatZ>if there were no America, would Germany have first nuclear bomb and destroy rest of world?
16:10<frosch123>unlikely, only uk maybe
16:10<frosch123>but you are approaching c&c
16:11<SmatZ>nah, I never played that :(
16:11<SmatZ>I read Gemany wasn't far from having one...
16:11<SmatZ>but well, "I read", "I heard" and such
16:11<SmatZ>maybe there was no WWII at all...
16:12<SmatZ>maybe there wasn't anything before 1985
16:12<SmatZ>maybe I live in Matrix
16:12<SmatZ>and you all are bots
16:12<frosch123>damn, how did he notice
16:12<SmatZ>:o)
16:13<SmatZ>btw Bjarni told me such theries about non-existing WWII
16:13<SmatZ>it scares me :-x
16:13<SmatZ>@seen Bjarni
16:13<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 1 day, 20 hours, 24 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <Bjarni> as long as it doesn't happen every 5th minute
16:13<frosch123>[22:08] <SmatZ> actually, we were taught hardly anything from 1948-nowadays in History <- uhm, you tell me that 54 (or was it 56?) is missing
16:14<z-MaTRiX>SmatZ<< that's not right, at least im real
16:14<frosch123>oh, 68
16:14<SmatZ>frosch123: if you mean the monetary reform, political processes....
16:14<SmatZ>ah, 68, I guess we were taught about that... at least a bit :)
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16:14<SmatZ>but there are documents about that nowadays
16:15<SmatZ>"20 years after fall of communism"
16:15<SmatZ>so I get a lot of information from there
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>the basic outline that i remember was: 5th grade: stone age and bronce age (local history mostly, like visiting graves). 6th grade: mesopotamia, egypt, greece. 7th grade: rome, frankian empire, holy roman empire (early time). 8th grade: 30 years war, france (Louis XIV), prussia (frederic II), french revolution, napoleon. 9th grade: german confederation, german-french war, first world war, russian revolution. 10th grade: treaty of
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>versailles, republic of weimar, uprising of the nazi party, 3rd reich, second world war, small episodes after the war (split of germany, berlin blockade)... and a short glimpse about the reunification
16:15<SmatZ>like, it wasn't that bad as some people say :-p
16:16<+glx>luckily we don't have to know all our presidents name (especially the third republic ones ;) )
16:16<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: are you from the wester or easter germany? did that influence what you were taught?
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>in 11th and 12th grade, you go through the entire history again. but this time you pick smaller episodes that you discuss in further depth
16:17*_ln is quite sure Eddi|zuHause's 5th grade was after reunification.
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes. reunification was in my 2nd/3rd grade, i believe
16:18<SmatZ>glx: we got a lot of information about france :)
16:18<+glx>but third republic was silly :)
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>glx: third republic was after 1871?
16:19<+glx>yes
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>or was that the fourth?
16:19<+glx>WWII was during fourth
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think we talked much about that
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>we only talked about the revolution, jacobians and girondists, then napoleon
16:20*SmatZ has a strong urgo to play Civilisation (the first one of course ;)
16:20<SmatZ>*urge
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>nothing really afterwards
16:20<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: I wish I had your memory :-/
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: i vaguely remember that someone tried to do a civ1 mod for civ4
16:20<frosch123>no, after 1871 everything is about bismarck keying france, uk, russia, germany and austria
16:20<frosch123>oh, italy and spain too
16:20<SmatZ>:)
16:21<+glx>hmm indeed third 1870->1940, fourth 1946->1958
16:21<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause: I would say Third, First were jacobians and co., Second was after 1848 or so before Napoleon III proclaimed himself Emperor
16:22<Vikthor>hmm too slow
16:22<SmatZ>hmm shame, I am worst in history of you all :(
16:22<SmatZ>*far worst
16:22<frosch123>no, you are only worst in hiding it
16:22<+glx>I used wiki to check dates :)
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>there was a quick mentioning about when germany won over france in the war of 70/71, france became a republic again, but i really have no sense of counting there ;)
16:23<SmatZ>:)
16:23<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: when you stole alsace ;)
16:23<_ln>has any contemporary politician tried to declare e.g. the french revolution as an act of terrorism?
16:23<frosch123>alsace, is that elsa? ?
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>glx: earned back :p
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>glx: napoleon stole it first
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: elsaß, yes
16:23<frosch123>oh, damn, i stalled a sed to replace them into questionmark
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>well, actually, they switched alignment quite a few times since Charlemagne's ancestors split up the empire into 3 parts
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>Alsace and Loth(a)ringue belonged to Lothar's middle empire originally
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>which quickly was split up between the western (french) empire and the eastern (german) empire
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: yes, sometimes it frightenes me, how much i can remember without opening wikipedia.
16:28<SmatZ>:)
16:28<frosch123>true, you do not have to open wikipedia, if it is already opened
16:29<SmatZ>heheeh
16:30*Wikie just gravedigged a 2 year or topic.
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16:31<Eddi|zuHause>Wikie: that's nothing, i have seen 5 year digs...
16:31<Wikie>xD
16:31<Wikie>I've got an excuse: it's my topic.
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: to be fair, not everything that i told here i actually learned in school
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>i also played civilization quite a lot, and read up on some aspects vaguely mentioned there
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>the history lessons sometimes leave quite some holes in the development
16:34<_ln>a finnish terrorist: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Schauman
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16:35<Eddi|zuHause>history is full of terrorists
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>Robin Hood being a famous one...
16:35<SmatZ>hehe
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>only Americans know nothing of history, so their terrorism starts in 2001
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16:36<Xaroth>Wikie: can you pm me the exception so i can trace it down?
16:36<Xaroth>that should be enough
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>if you interpret the bible a little, you can certainly prove that goliath's david was a terrorist
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16:37<SmatZ>well
16:38<SmatZ>history is written by winners
16:39<frosch123>really? it's hard to count how often jerusalem is destroyed in the bible
16:40<frosch123>though usually they say, it's their own fault :)
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: that is not entirely true. after WWII, france and germany formed a committee that reviewed each other's history book, to make the view more objective and prevent the buildup of further hatered
16:42<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: very good thing to do
16:42<SmatZ>I never understood why is there so much dislike between france and germany
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: it would be the right thing to do in israel/palestina, but they are kind of resisting
16:42<SmatZ>or so is my feeling
16:43<frosch123>SmatZ: because they are neighbours?
16:43<SmatZ>frosch123: czechia has neighbours too, and except austria (rather some people there), it's all ok :)
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: but czechia was not really a major force during most times ;)
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: the stronger you are, the more enemies you make
16:44<SmatZ>:'-(
16:44<frosch123>SmatZ: so czech and slovaks like each other?
16:44<SmatZ>frosch123: yeah!
16:44<Prof_Frink>frosch123: This is true.
16:44<SmatZ>frosch123: rather politics wanted to have each their own republic :-p
16:45<SmatZ>but slovaks are stil our brothers
16:45<SmatZ>still
16:45<frosch123>hmm, i always thought each wanted to gain the other
16:45<_ln>in israel/palestina, more than 50% of both peoples support the idea of continuing fights.
16:45-!-TheMask96- [martijn@greed.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:46<_ln>so.. it's democratic and it's never going to end.
16:46<SmatZ>frosch123: I don't think anyone wanted that
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: yes, because they were not taught differently
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>and if the history books are not changed, each generation will be taught the same hate against the other
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: a majority in germany and france wanted to fight each other in 1914 for the exact same reason
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>each side was conditioned to hate the other one for past humiliations
16:47<SmatZ>frosch123: (I think it's the first time I hear that opinion)
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>the germans for napoleon and the french for the defeat in 1871
16:47<frosch123>hehe, well, I guess it was just me then :)
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>and the treaty of versailles only further sharpened this, leading up to the second world war
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>which is why in 1945 the allies did not repeat that mistake again
16:48<Vikthor>frosch123: Well it depends whom you ask, certainly there are people here who don't like Slovaks
16:49<Vikthor>but it's just insignificant minority
16:50<_ln>btw, i think there's a significant number of people in the world who would get offended by the expression "israel/palestina".
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>Vikthor: there are people here who dislike bavarians, too ;)
16:50<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause: They did not repeated that moslt because they needed Germany against USSR
16:50<Vikthor>*mostly
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16:50*SmatZ was very influenced by russian fairy tales... about how rich people are bad and poor are good :-p
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>Vikthor: not necessarily
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>Vikthor: the basics of post-war germany were already laid out in the conferences like yalta, where the cold war was not really taking off yet
16:51<Vikthor>Well there were plans how to turn Germany into agrarian state
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16:52<OwenS>But it wasn't until after 1945 that the Western and USSR relationship really fell apart
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there were a lot of plans...
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>i believe the real indicators of the upcoming cold war were only immediately apparent starting around 1948
16:53<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause: Here it is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan
16:54<Nite_Owl>they were somewhat apparent when Stalin did not leave Eastern Europe after the war ended
16:55<+glx>btw we had a nice defense line against germany, but someone passed around it ;)
16:56*Wikie pulls out his Panzerwefer and fires at glx.
16:56<Vikthor>glx: We also had one very nice defence, but we were forced to pass it to Germany
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>Vikthor: well, i'm not denying that some parts of that actually came into action
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>glx: well, yes, who could have known that germany took a detour around belgium :p
16:57<frosch123>oh yes, as my teacher said: czech chooses the wrong friends
16:57<SmatZ>hehe
16:57<SmatZ>frosch123: yeah :( but was there any other choice? :(
16:57<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: and worse, they could fire only in one direction :)
16:57<frosch123>apeacement strategy :)
16:58<frosch123>never works in civilisation either
16:58<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause: Especially when they did already in 1871 and 1914 :)
16:58<SmatZ>frosch123: hehe, just wanted to say that :)
16:58<pavel1269>gn folks
16:58<SmatZ>nn pavel1269
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>Vikthor: yeah, just wanted to say that ;)
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17:04<Eddi|zuHause>Vikthor: of course it is very obvious that post-1949, west germany heavily benefited from its border position towards the eastern block
17:12<SmatZ>how?
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>the lifting of limitations on german economy by the allies, the formation of the first european economical cooperations, the remilitarisation and nato membership
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>export of german products to the usa
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>especially cars
17:15<SmatZ>ah, I misunderstood you
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>all that would probably not have happened like this if the russians and western allies didn't split up
17:15<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause: But this beggs the question if that is not just because American cars suck .p
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>that is possible ;)
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>but east germany did not have that same opportunity, so the economic upswing there kind of stalled...
17:17<TrueBrain>I think you guys set a record not talking about OpenTTD (timewise) before 0:00 CEST
17:17*SmatZ likes american cars :-p except their gasoline consumption :(
17:17<TrueBrain>(I am not complaining, just noticing)
17:17<SmatZ>TrueBrain: and you broke it! :(
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you broke it!
17:17<frosch123>SmatZ: you like driving tank-like cars?
17:17<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause: That's not the problem, they could (and did) export to Russia(just like we did)
17:17*TrueBrain gniffels and runs :)
17:17<SmatZ>frosch123: tank-like?
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>Vikthor: yes, but the inhabitants of the USA had actual money to buy cars
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>all other countries suffered heavily from war damages
17:18<frosch123>wrt. american cars i always think about big cars with low-speed engines
17:18<Nite_Owl>Mustang
17:18<frosch123>typically busses or pickups
17:19<frosch123>s/busses/vans/
17:19<Nite_Owl>1968 Mustang
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>cadillacs
17:19<SmatZ>:)
17:19<frosch123>dodge stuff
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>all kinds of cars that are too huge to fit into a european (medieval) city
17:19<SmatZ>well, we have dodge... maybe it's some european version, but it can drive well over 180 (kmh)
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17:20<SmatZ>actually, it's chrysler now
17:20<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause: well by the time Germany started producing car exportable to US, most of Europe was more or less recovered
17:20<frosch123>SmatZ: i meant the low frequency sound of the enginge
17:20<SmatZ>frosch123: ok :)
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>Vikthor: the west german economic upswing is mainly credited to the export of the VW bug
17:20<frosch123>more like a tank :)
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>which is a pre-war design
17:21<SmatZ>hehe
17:21*SmatZ is off to bath
17:21<frosch123>is it really called vw bug in english? :o
17:21<SmatZ>after weeks of shower, finally a bath :)
17:21<frosch123>after weeks of rain, the flood?
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: not sure, but i think i heard that expression before
17:22<frosch123>no, it's beetle
17:22<Nite_Owl>bug or beetle
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>and yes, east germany exported stuff to russia. but all things actually worth anything were exported to western germany, to get some "hard money"
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>typically way under its actual value...
17:23<Nite_Owl>1968 Mustang = 1st car I ever owned VW Bug = 2nd car I ever ownd
17:24<Nite_Owl>*owned
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>pwned :p
17:26<Chruker>what happened to the mustang?
17:26<Nite_Owl>I drove it until it died
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: btw. it's all _ln's fault.
17:27<Chruker>how long ago was that?
17:27<Yexo>good night
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17:30<Nite_Owl>30 years or so
17:30<frosch123>belugas would be quite happy now
17:32<Rubidium>frosch123: ofcourse he would be :)
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17:43<Nite_Owl>may I ask why he would be happy
17:44<OwenS>Hmm... Shoul I support a ternary operator, and if so, what syntax? :p
17:44<frosch123>he is always happy, when he discovers there is someone older than him who deals with all those children in here :)
17:45<frosch123>OwenS: operator vs. function?
17:45<Rubidium>oh, not the fact that he's on vacation now?
17:45<frosch123>(again)
17:45<OwenS>frosch123: operator. Like C's X ? Y : Z
17:46<frosch123>Rubidium: that would have been indicative, not conjunctive
17:46<frosch123>OwenS: or a function like select(x, y, z)
17:46<Nite_Owl>comparatively I am quite ancient but not really that old
17:46<OwenS>frosch123: That always evaluates both arguments
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17:47<frosch123>interesting, I guess that was never an issue with the languages which had such a thing
17:48<frosch123>OwenS: so, is there any other syntax?
17:49<OwenS>frosch123: Python style X if Cond else Z
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17:49<frosch123>oh, that looks really broken with the condition in the middle
17:49<OwenS>It reads better though
17:51<OwenS>I notice I follow a different coding style for scripting and non scripting languages
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>hm... so apparently the solution to my bug report about konversation crashing is "we already removed utf16, so remove ucs2 as well"
17:52<OwenS>lol
17:52<OwenS>UTF-16/UCS-2 don't work over IRC anyway
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and they forgot half of it ;)
17:52<OwenS>In C/C++, I put the opening brace of a function on the next line (Though if() etc blocks it's on the same line), in other languages, I put function braces on the same line
17:53<frosch123>isn't the former caller 'linux style'
17:54<frosch123>and the latter 'java style'
17:54<OwenS>K&R style actually
17:54<OwenS>(The first that is)
17:54<frosch123>I meant "next line only for functions" (as also for ottd)
17:54<OwenS>But yes Linux follows K&R
17:54<OwenS>Yeah, thats K&R
17:55<frosch123>why can i then typically choose between k&r and linux?
17:55<Rubidium>because of subtleties?
17:55<OwenS>Probably
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18:12<Vikthor>'night everyone
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18:59<Baffage>Heyguys, how to stop trains from running where they shouldn't? e.g when a train is supposed to turn around at a station, but just continues forward?
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19:05<fjb>Do your settings allow trains to turn around in stations?
19:07<Baffage>I believe so, but I didnt find the setting >.< hang on
19:08<fjb>It is hidden in the difficulty settings.
19:09<Baffage>At end of line, and at stations
19:09<Baffage>shouldn't be a problem, should it?
19:09<fjb>That is ok. When does it not turn around?
19:10-!-oskari89 [oskari89@88.193.124.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:10<fjb>A train only turns around in a station if the station is in one of the orders.
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19:10<Baffage>Yeah, it's in the orders
19:10<Baffage>the route of the train is B - C - D
19:11<Baffage>but when going from D and back through C and B, it runs right through (picks up passengers though) B and continues to A
19:11<Baffage>which is not in the route
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19:12<fjb>What are the orders?
19:12<Baffage>1. D 2. C 3. D
19:13<Baffage>transfer at D if it matters
19:13<Baffage>3. B*
19:13<Baffage>and transfer at B
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19:13<Baffage>then it should turn around at B and go back to D, right?
19:14<fjb>Yes, it should.
19:15<fjb>Does the the track layout allow the train to go from B to D without going via A?
19:15<Baffage>only by turning around at B
19:15<Baffage>or well
19:15<Baffage>the problem is that it does, if it wants to go around the whole map
19:16<fjb>Do you get train lost messages?
19:17<Baffage>Not as I recall, I blew up the track on the other side of the station to force it to turn :] but i probably did
19:18<fjb>Did it turn then?
19:18<Baffage>It didnt turn before I blew up the track
19:18<fjb>But it did after you cut the track from B to A?
19:19<Baffage>No, then it went straight to A
19:19<Baffage>(which is the whole problem)
19:20<fjb>But when there is no track between B and A anymore it turns around in B as it should?
19:21<Baffage>exactly
19:22<fjb>Hm, the pathfinder things that the way via A is cheaper. Red Singnals make a way more xpensive or tight corner s or bridges etc.
19:22<fjb>Can you upload a screenshot of B somewhere?
19:23<Baffage>sure, hang on
19:23<fjb>Ok
19:24<Baffage>.. just B or the whole system?
19:25<fjb>Depends how big the whole system is. :-)
19:26<Baffage>It's too big to show ;< I'll make som pointers and stuff :]
19:26<fjb>Ok
19:31<Baffage>http://img229.imageshack.us/i/ttd.png/
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19:35<fjb>Hm, good question. I don't see why it doesn't go.
19:35<OwenS>I don't know what you did to create that overlay text... but it's horrible
19:35<fjb>Maybe you should als at the forum.
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19:37<fjb>And using the buildin screenshot feateres gives better results. The signals are a bit difficult to see.
19:38<Baffage>where is that? :
19:38<Baffage>:p
19:38<Rubidium>under the question mark
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19:40<Baffage>i see. I'll just try and fail a bit i guess, thanks for the help =9
19:40<Baffage>=)
19:41<fjb>But I have no idea why the train doesn't want to turn around.
19:41<Rubidium>savegame would probably help
19:41<Rubidium>might be the 'turn only at X' difficulty setting
19:41<Rubidium>might be something completely different
19:42<fjb>We try to help everybody who is asking nicely.
19:42<Rubidium>true, but giving the valuable information helps at both sides
19:43<Rubidium>the person asking the question gets a founded answer
19:43<Rubidium>and the rest doesn't get bothered by all the guesses and "oh it's not that"
19:44<fjb>And even if the layout looks simple the question is not that easy to answer.
19:45<Baffage>I probably made some minor mistake or something :p it might even work now
19:46<fjb>You could post a savegame.
19:47<Baffage>seems like the problem fixed itself =D
19:48<Baffage>At least the train turns :]
19:48<fjb>Then you can start to improve the layout now.
19:49<Baffage>I saw that coming :] I guess that'll just be a lot of trying and failing, still quite new to the game
19:50<Baffage>Anything spesific you were thinking about?
19:51<fjb>No, not really. Thinking only about my bed right now.
19:51<fjb>And you will learn more with everything you try.
19:52<fjb>Trying new layouts is part of the fun of this game.
19:55<Baffage>Sure. Once I get the grip of.. uh, everything. :] especially signals
19:56<fjb>You could try the advanced signals. They are much easier to use (in my opinion).
19:57<Baffage>.. how many advanced signals are there?
19:57<Markk>2
19:58<Baffage>.. signal and presignal?
19:58<Markk>ah
19:58<fjb>The advanced signals are close to how signals at the real railways or model railways work.
19:58<Markk>I thought of PBS
19:59<Markk>fjb: yeah, old systems, in the 80's many network got ATC and computer based signals
19:59<fjb>No Presignals. Only Signals and Signals which only allow the train to pass in one direction.
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20:00<fjb>Still computer based signals are working like the advanced signals of OpenTTD.
20:01<Baffage>The one-way signal, does it do anything else?
20:01<Markk>No
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20:03<fjb>The advanced (or PBS) signals have one rule: Only plant a signal there where a waiting train waiting in front of that signal does not disturb other trains.
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20:04<fjb>Reading that sentence I really should go to bed.
20:04<Baffage>Yeah, you probably should x)
20:05<Baffage>.. so the signals stop trains from disturbing other trains, is that it?
20:07<fjb>Yes. The signals dive the track into blocks.
20:07<fjb>Only one train is allowed to be in one block.
20:08<fjb>A train waiting on a switch prvents any other train to use that switch.
20:09<fjb>So put advanced signals olny in front of a switchyard and never behind it.
20:09<Baffage>Are there articles on all of this on the wiki?
20:09<fjb>You need signals behind the switchyard with the old signals, but not with the new advanced signals.
20:10<fjb>Yes, look for PBS or YAPP. But they are really easy to use.
20:10<fjb>http://wiki.openttd.org/YAPP
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20:12<Baffage>http://wiki.openttd.org/Image:Yapp_signalgui.png looks just like my signal menu, how come? I haven't installed anything apart from openttd itself
20:14<fjb>They are part of the base OpenTTD.
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20:14<fjb>Nothing to install.
20:14<fjb>They are just the signals surrounded by the red line in that picture.
20:15<Baffage>oh. so.. you only use the path signal and oneway path signal?
20:16<fjb>Yes. And the only difference between those signals is that the oneway path signal does not allow any train to pass it in the opposite direction.
20:20<Baffage>Just to get something straight, a block is any.. unit of railway on any number of squares, right?
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20:22<fjb>Right.
20:22<Markk>For you right.
20:22<Markk>To left.
20:22<Markk>:)
20:23<Baffage>For me? I probably shouldn't ask what a block is for you then? :]
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20:28<Baffage>umm, why do I only get one path signal per square and not two? Shouldn't I have one on each side of the railway like with the other signals?
20:28<Markk>heh
20:28<Markk>Its oneway only
20:28<Markk>Read the wiki
20:28<Baffage>it's not the oneway one
20:29<Baffage>.. it says trains can pass it from behind
20:29<Baffage>.. but t hen they'll just ignore it, right?
20:29<Markk>yes
20:29<Markk>But the the wiki
20:30<fjb>Right.
20:31<fjb>Like real railways.
20:31<fjb>The Backside of the signal does not count and is ignored.
20:31<Baffage>I don't have a clue about real railways, so that doesn't help me much
20:32<Baffage>I'm going to have trains running in both directions, shouldn't I have signals in both directions then?
20:32<fjb>It wouls be hard to see the lights of the signal from the backside.
20:32<Baffage>of course
20:32<fjb>And the usual traffic lights do also not count if you see the backside. :-)
20:33<Baffage>That's my point, how is that sufficient when I'm going to have trains running in both directions?
20:33<fjb>You should have signals for both directions, but usually not at the same position.
20:34<fjb>Think about the traffic lights at a road crossing.
20:35<fjb>They are always preventing the traffic from entering the crossing. So a traffic light at the exit of the crossing would make no sense.
20:36<Baffage>Good point, I guess :p
20:36<fjb>It would prevent the traffic from leavng the crossing and so block it.
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20:54<Cow>hello
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21:00-!-Audigex [~audigex@78.150.186.126] has joined #openttd
21:00<Audigex>haihai
21:01<Audigex>anyone who's done much development related stuff around?
21:01-!-PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-209-23.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
21:01<Audigex>just got a quick question about visual studio 08
21:02<+glx>can't be quick :)
21:02<+glx>but just ask
21:02<Audigex>well, hopefully
21:02<Audigex>i noticed that visual studio express 2008, the wiki says only to install the directx august 2007 sdk
21:03<Audigex>but the vse2005 article says to install the current one too
21:03<Audigex>is it an omission in the 2008 article
21:03<+glx>only august 2007 works for openttd
21:03<Audigex>so i dont need the current one at all?
21:04<+glx>we only use direct music, and that has been removed after august 2007
21:04<Audigex>okay, excellent
21:04<Audigex>thanks :)
21:05<+glx>vse2005 article just complicates stuff :)
21:05<Audigex>yarp
21:05<Audigex>well i just installed the aug07 one "all to hard drive"
21:06<Audigex>what's the point of having 500gb if I have to click checkboxes, eh?
21:06<+glx>you could remove docs and samples ;)
21:06<Audigex>for the sake of 20mb or whatever i'll survive
21:06<Audigex>upgrading to 1tb soon anyway - this drive is fecking irritating
21:06<Audigex>click click click
21:07<Audigex>and i've got a stack of backups on it anyway
21:07<Audigex>so why not
21:07<Audigex>£60 for 1TB, about 50 for 500gb
21:10<Audigex>hmm, so i follow 2008 article for what to do with the openttd-useful stuff?
21:10<Audigex>and specify locations in vc++ rather than copying the folders?
21:10<Markk>Cheapest here i Sweden is 56 quid
21:11<+glx>yes extract openttd-useful where you want and point to it in vc++
21:11<+glx>easier to update it later
21:11<Audigex>kk
21:11<Audigex>agh, pissing vc#
21:11<Audigex>opened the wrong one :)
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21:22<Audigex>one more question
21:22<Audigex>well, maybe 2 (a)
21:22<Audigex>no wait, 1
21:22<Audigex>"Add the DirectX headers subdirectory through the openttd project properties -> C/C++ -> General -> Additional Include Directories "
21:22<Audigex>where do I find "openttd project properties"
21:22<Audigex>i can't find anything with that name
21:23<Audigex>oh wait
21:23<Audigex>got it
21:23<Audigex>"properties window"
21:24<Audigex>it doesnt seem to have any c/c++ section though
21:24-!-mucht_home [~Martin@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has joined #openttd
21:24<Audigex>anyone?
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21:33<Audigex>aha!
21:33<Audigex>got it
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21:35<+glx>Audigex: it's just VC++ properties :)
21:35<+glx>like for openttd-useful
21:36<Audigex>the problem wass that i was on openttd properties
21:36<Audigex>not openttd release properties
21:36<Audigex>the first only has a name and base path or something
21:36<PeterT>can someone tell me if this is possible
21:36<Audigex>just hit build solution, let's see what happens :)
21:36<PeterT>i download the source code to patch
21:36<Audigex>"anything is possible"
21:37<Audigex>unless you're using java, in which case your hash tables are going to be fucked whatever you do
21:37<PeterT>i patch bilbo's patchpack, and on top of that, i patch upgrade airports for 071
21:37<PeterT>i will try, but is that how you do 2 patches?
21:37<+glx>mixing patches requires coding skills
21:37<Audigex>petert - you have to manually fix any clashes
21:38<Audigex>it could just work straight off
21:38<Audigex>but only if they don't touch the same code
21:38<PeterT>thats why i will try
21:38<Audigex>if they overlap at any point, you'll have to try to fix it yourself
21:38<Audigex>Build: 2 succeeded, 1 failed, 1 up-to-date, 0 skipped
21:38<Audigex>failure
21:39<Audigex>..\src\music\dmusic.cpp(16) : fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'dmksctrl.h': No such file or directory
21:39<Audigex>..\src\spriteloader\png.cpp(13) : fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'png.h': No such file or directory
21:39<PeterT>lets hope this works
21:39<Audigex>..\src\saveload\saveload.cpp(1313) : fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'zlib.h': No such file or directory
21:40<PeterT>whats that from?
21:40<Audigex>..\src\screenshot.cpp(160) : fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'png.h': No such file or directory
21:40<Audigex>my error log
21:40<Audigex>im trying to see if there's any common denominator
21:40<PeterT>from what patches?
21:40<Audigex>just patching trunk
21:40<Audigex>*building trunk
21:40<PeterT>ok, what enviornment?
21:40<Audigex>obviously i've missed a step or done part wrong
21:40<PeterT>mingw?
21:40<Audigex>visual c++ express 2008
21:40<PeterT>visual studio?
21:41<PeterT>ok, i need to download that
21:41<PeterT>seems like everyone uses visual
21:41<Audigex>..\src\gfx.cpp(262) : fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'unicode/ubidi.h': No such file or directory
21:41<Audigex>..\src\fontcache.cpp(22) : fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'ft2build.h': No such file or directory
21:41<PeterT>failiures?
21:41<Audigex>zlib, png, ft2build, dmksctrl and unicode/ubidi (.h)
21:42<Audigex>any link between those .h files?
21:42<PeterT>mingw works fine
21:42<Audigex>it did this last time i tried to use vse to compile ottd
21:42<Audigex>on a completely different system
21:42<Audigex>so clearly, i'm the one doing something wrong
21:43<PeterT>how much does visual c++ cost?
21:44<PeterT>once i download the source for what im patching, do i just patch it, or do i enter ./configure, then make
21:45<Audigex>the express edition is free
21:45<Audigex>and i dont know :)
21:45<Audigex>i've never used any of these tools before
21:45<Audigex>PHP, java and visual basic are my repertoire up to now
21:45<Audigex>right, having another go
21:46<PeterT>whats this: $ patch -p0 -i airport-upgrade-v6-0.7.1.patch
21:46<PeterT>can't find file to patch at input line 5
21:46<PeterT>Perhaps you used the wrong -p or --strip option?
21:46<PeterT>The text leading up to this was:
21:46<PeterT>|diff --git a/src/station_cmd.cpp b/src/station_cmd.cpp
21:46<PeterT>|index 563c440..e2eb0e4 100644
21:46<PeterT>|--- a/src/station_cmd.cpp
21:46<PeterT>|+++ b/src/station_cmd.cpp
21:47<PeterT>i guess i fail
21:48<PeterT>luckily i ordered a book on c--
21:49<Audigex>okay, i'm down from 9 errors to 8!
21:49<Audigex>at this rate, only 6 hours to go before i'm done
21:49<Audigex>whoever gets their compiler working first, we'll go with that one :)
21:51<PeterT>well, i can compile trunk easily
21:51<PeterT>does visual studio also download source code?
21:52-!-OwenS [~oshepherd@host86-129-5-71.range86-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:54<PeterT>Audigex, does it?
21:54<PeterT>download source?
21:59<Audigex>vs won't download itself, but svn does easily enough
22:00<Audigex>right, i think i've hopefully found the problem
22:00<Audigex>this guide isn't very cler
22:00<Audigex>*clear
22:00<Audigex>attempting a compile now
22:01-!-Baffage [~potetfar@160.80-202-187.nextgentel.com] has quit []
22:02<Audigex>nope, still fucked
22:02<PeterT>errors?
22:02-!-Utvik [~autvik@bjo2-1x-dhcp133.studby.uio.no] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:03<+glx>Audigex: you failed to set path correctly in vc++
22:03<Audigex>which path?
22:04<Audigex>i've got 2 set for includes and library in both the vc++ options, and the project properties
22:04<Audigex>tools->options->vc++ directories
22:04<+glx>[03:41:59] <Audigex> zlib, png, ft2build, dmksctrl and unicode/ubidi (.h) <-- all in openttd-useful except dmksctrl (directx)
22:04<Audigex>dmksctrl has gone now
22:04<Audigex>so it's the openttd-useful, presumably
22:05<PeterT>whats openttd-usefull?
22:06<+glx>add openttd essentials\shared\include to includes
22:06<Audigex>hmm, im wondering if i've used the wrong include
22:06<Audigex>just did :D
22:07<Audigex>right, trying it again
22:07<Audigex>i added the /win32/include/ instead
22:07<+glx>this one is empty :)
22:07<Audigex>yarp
22:08<Audigex>but thats why, when i went back through the instructions, i was like "done, done, done, done"
22:08<Audigex>all done
22:08<Audigex>"you see what you want to see"
22:08<PeterT>whats openttd usefull
22:08<+glx>extra libs needed to build openttd with VC
22:09<+glx>(png, zlib, ...)
22:09<PeterT>oh
22:09<PeterT>stuff you need anyway for mingw
22:09<+glx>for mingw it's easier, you download the source for these libs, ./configure && make && make install
22:09<Audigex>linking :D
22:10<Audigex>generating code
22:10<Audigex>looks like it's worked
22:10<+glx>theorically :)
22:10<Audigex>more importantly, this is slow
22:11<Audigex>looks like i need a heftier overclock
22:11<+glx>yes it's optimising
22:11<Audigex>what sort of voltage do you reckon a phenom II can take?
22:11<PeterT>glx, yes its very easy for noobs
22:11<+glx>if you want to build fast build a debug build, but then it will very slow when playing
22:11<Audigex>yarp
22:12<Audigex>i just want to see if it works for now
22:12<Audigex>then have a go at putting together patches i want
22:12<Audigex>programming isn't a problem
22:13<Audigex>but projects are beyond me
22:13<Audigex>i've only ever worked on one-man projects before
22:13-!-Wikie [~Wikie@79.117.158.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:13<+glx>if you can build clean trunk, failures will be due to patches ;)
22:13<Audigex>========== Build: 3 succeeded, 0 failed, 1 up-to-date, 0 skipped ==========
22:13<Audigex>woop woop woop
22:13<+glx>congrats
22:13<Audigex>more woops than jesus on acid
22:14<Audigex>i know it's not actually an achievement, but that was pissing annoying
22:14<Audigex>you're a genius
22:14<PeterT>good job
22:14<Audigex>right, where's my binary :s
22:14<+glx>in objs\win32\release
22:15<Audigex>aha :)
22:15<Audigex>why the hell don't they put it in /bin/
22:15<+glx>MSVC is picky for that, it puts all outputs files in the same dir
22:16<+glx>though it should be possible to put the exe in bin
22:16<Audigex>trunk works :)
22:16<Audigex>yarp, bit daft to have to go find it
22:17<Audigex>okay, that'll do for tonight
22:17<Audigex>i'll try applying some patches tomorrow :)
22:18<Audigex>thanks for the help
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23:19-in_t4n:#openttd-NICE
23:19<in_t4n>Nice software!
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 13 00:00:06 2009