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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-08-17

---Logopened Mon Aug 17 00:00:41 2009
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01:05-anthy:#openttd-You really should download this:
01:05<anthy>Install this on a couple computers for me!
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01:13<Zuu>"Install this on a couple computers for me" sounds like a bad virus email joke :-)
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02:19<pavel1269>good morning
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05:39<fonsinchen>Is there a way to find out about the length of a string before actually drawing it? So that I can decide if I have to break a line.
05:42<fonsinchen>Ah, I see ... GetStringBoundingBox. Sorry for the stupid question.
05:42<TrueBrain>we forigve you :p
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06:39*OwenS wonders if the engineers coming with his new broadband equipment will be on time (They have 21 minutes)
06:39<TrueBrain>blathijs: is it possible via LDAP to have ssh keys? Or do they need to be in ~/.ssh/authorized_keys?
06:39<TrueBrain>tick tack
06:39<OwenS>TrueBrain: I'd assume that SSH doesn't touch LDAP and for this sort of thing assumes NFS usage :p
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: since when are people like this ever on time?
06:40<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Very good question :p
06:40<blathijs>TrueBrain: Dunno, haven't tried that
06:41<blathijs>TrueBrain: Debian stores ssh keys in LDAP, but I think they write out authorized_keys files on changes
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06:42<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: They're on time if you're the first job of the day. If you're not, they're probably late :p
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>but would the first job not be around 8 to 9-ish?
06:43<OwenS>It would :p
06:43<OwenS>(Though they said "any time between 8 and 12")
06:50<OwenS>Actually, they are on time... when you're not :p
06:51<TrueBrain>blathijs: well, in the ideal situation 1 developer can login to several VPSes with 1 key .. and sharing them outside the VPSes is tricky ;)
06:52<blathijs>TrueBrain: What do you mean with "outside the VPSes" ?
06:53<blathijs>I have shared homedirs for all my vservers, but that's probably not ideal from a security pov
06:53<TrueBrain>blathijs: well, 2 VPSes, shared accounts via LDAP (and their authentication)
06:53<blathijs>But I don't think that openssh has any direct LDAP code, it only talks to LDAP through PAM
06:53<TrueBrain>k .. tnx :)
06:54<blathijs>and I don't think PAM can handle key auth (though perhaps GSSAPI does something similar perhaps, with pam_kerberos or something?)
06:55<TrueBrain>well, I think I will make a simple way which generates those files
06:55<OwenS>Kerberos would require your local machine be configured for Kerberos... eww
06:59<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: On time :P
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07:13<Xaroth>TrueBrain: I doubt you can use SSH keys with LDAP..
07:13<TrueBrain>Xaroth: blathijs already told me, yes :p
07:14<Xaroth>why SSH keys?
07:14<Xaroth>if you're already using LDAP
07:14<TrueBrain>why an apple, if you have an house!
07:14<TrueBrain>those 2 entries are not really related to eachother, other than they supply authentication :)
07:15<TrueBrain>one only password less
07:15<@petern>i want to have ssh keys AND system passwords :s
07:15<@petern>probably some way of setting that up, but i've not found it
07:16<Xaroth>petern: AND authentication instead of OR ?
07:16<TrueBrain>client-side certificates
07:16<TrueBrain>keyphrased protected keys
07:16<Noldo>one time paswords too
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09:11<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i can't properly set up two screens
09:12<Sacro>oh dear
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>i can choose "clone display 1" which works, but when i choose "extend desktop", it sets the resolution to 1024x480
09:14<+glx>ATI ?
09:15<+glx>I know how to configure an ATI card
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>it's only temporary anyway... just wanted to see if it was working...
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>the two monitors are of the same model, but they have extremely different colour...
09:17<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Is one on 6500k and the other 9300k?
09:18<TrueBrain>GRRR, stupid ldap doesn't let me set a password of a user account .. keeps complaining about sasl :s
09:18<OwenS>(The 6500k one will look yellowy while the 9300k one will look blue-white by comparison)
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>both with same setting
09:18<OwenS>TrueBrain: SASL means login failure :p
09:18<TrueBrain>yeah, it ALWAYS means that, yeah, thank you very much
09:18<TrueBrain>sigh ...
09:18<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Then I don't know. My experience all lies with nVIDIA cards anyway
09:19<OwenS>(Except for some work with an Intel GMA....)
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: the colour is not about the card...
09:21<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: With the exception of "Digital Vibrance" settings, I know
09:22<Xaroth>Eddi|zuHause: try forcing the resolution?
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>Xaroth: it only allows me to select this resolution
09:23<OwenS>What is the graphics card model? Is it incapable of dualing at higher resolutions?
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>and something like enabling xinerama and restarting x, but i don't really feel like doing that
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>it's a Radeon 9700 Pro
09:25<reldred1>Oh lovely, dualscreen on radeon always was fun back in the day
09:25*reldred1 had a 9600 Pro
09:26<reldred1>Several years ago however, back when X was evil and men were men
09:26<reldred1>X is still evil, but men are largely latte drinking pansies.
09:26<reldred1>None of which has anything to do with the matter at hand. I'll go now.
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>well, AMD just discontinued support for this card this year
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>the new monitor is much brighter than the old one
09:27<OwenS>That's always the case. Monitors dim with age
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>in two years?
09:27<OwenS>The 9700 pro is a 7 year old card with only 128MB RAM...
09:28<OwenS>Well, it's possible they're using a brighter backlight now or any of 1000 variables
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's possible some of the backlight tubes break
09:28<OwenS>Though nothing will beat the difference side-by-side LCD vs CRT will give you :p
09:28<reldred1>The 9700 Pro is 7 years old now? faaaark, I remember cranking Morrowind on my freshly installed 9600 Pro
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>i threw away all my CRTs
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>7 years? i don't have my computer that long...
09:29<OwenS>Came out 2002
09:29<OwenS>I have a CRT for the olde Windows box, but thats it
09:30<@petern>i have a 21" CRT monitor
09:30<@petern>can't be arsed moving it
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>although i bought it as a used one, but it was more high end than anything i would have got at Aldi
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>petern: i know that problem
09:31<OwenS>I never went higher than 17" CRT :p
09:31<+glx>17" CRT are already heavy
09:31<@petern>if i ever moved my 'studio' into a spare bedroom i might set it up as a telly or something, heh
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09:31<Eddi|zuHause>but mine had a colouring failure, and later it broke
09:31<OwenS>I have a 19" LCD which weighs about as much though...
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>so it was just standing there useless...
09:32<OwenS>(Freaking heavy steel base!)
09:32<@petern>i think it's ~ 30Kg
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>i remember how i took the monitor on a LAN party
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>the people complained, because they had a really small flat :p
09:32<@petern>my keyboard is 25Kg
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>the next lan party i brought a 15" monitor
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>and they complained because it was really tiny :p
09:33<OwenS>I'd probably take the 19" LCD. It's JUST portable enough :p
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>that was a great monitor, though, i could run it at higher resolutions than the 21"
09:33<@petern>my 22" LCD is quite heavy
09:33<@petern>hmm 5.53Kg
09:33<@petern>not that much then
09:33<OwenS>(I am being serious about the 19" Philips LCD weight = 17" CRT weight BTW :P )
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>i just picked up the box with the new monitor, and it felt really light...
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>i was wondering if there actually was anything in there...
09:35<@petern>sometimes things seem heavier out of the box
09:35<@petern>density 'n all that
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>i know that differently...
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>we had a porcellan weight, and it looked like a cup upside down
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>and everyone wanted to pick up the cup and turn it
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>then suddenly relize it was heavier than they anticipated :p
09:39<OwenS>I should get a Uranium block. would be good for tricking people that way. And scaring the crap out of them :p
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: you heard the story about two kids playing "nuclear power plant" with a couple of old computer cases and a printout of a "radioactive" sign?
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>they went away for a few minutes, and left it on the road
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>and when they came back, a huge police operation was there, thinking it was a "dirty bomb"
09:41<OwenS>As if a real dirty bomb would have a handy trefoil on it...
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09:41<OwenS>I can go one better though
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>ok... with this stereo view i'm going mad...
09:42<OwenS>I read about a guy who actually built a "reactor" in his potting shed.
09:44<OwenS>Well... the Environmental Protection Agency weren't pleased...
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>how is that "better"?
09:48<@petern>pretty much everyone has read about something similar to that...
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10:04<OwenSX48BD>TrueBrain: 11 ( 32.902 ms 32.904 ms 32.853 ms <-- Much better!
10:04<TrueBrain>OwenSX48BD: concratz
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10:05<OwenS>Though I can't fully switch over yet as the router hasn't arrived
10:05<TrueBrain> 6 ( 6.188 ms 6.681 ms 6.659 ms <- hihi
10:05<TrueBrain>(6th hop :p)
10:05<OwenS>Theres a "you're in the same country and on the same landmass" issue there :p
10:06<TrueBrain>and the "I have an ISP which has fiber from here directly to the AIX with only one hop in between" :p
10:06<OwenS> 9 ( 20.858 ms 31.654 ms 31.307 ms (Though cable is higher latency than Ethernet/Fiber/etc anyway :P )
10:08<OwenS>Now I should probably switch back until the router makes itself present before anyone starts probing my open ports :p
10:11<Xaroth> 7th here, but that's due to 1 firewall and 1 gateway :P
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10:13<Xaroth> 5 ( 2.242 ms 2.315 ms 2.291 ms
10:13<Xaroth>from datacenter
10:13<Eddi|zuHause> Name or service not known
10:14<OwenS>Just for comparison, via old connection... I don't get there...
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>send failed: No buffer space available
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>i guess traceroute doesn't like me...
10:15<OwenS>Aha! 15 ( 74.534 ms 74.505 ms 80.703 ms
10:15<OwenS>So my new result is less than half the old one :p
10:16<Eddi|zuHause> 5 * ( 267.092 ms ( 299.168 ms
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>that's the closest i get
10:16<OwenS>Try tracerouting it by IP
10:17<OwenS>And 4.? Isn't 4. unallocated?
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i did that
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>apparently not...
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>17 ( 1232.738 ms 1228.787 ms 1242.805 ms
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>i'm really at the end of the world...
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10:19<OwenS>Can I point out the irony that you share a land border with the netherlands? :p
10:20<OwenS>I have to go ther across some ocean...and a much longer distance than you have worst case
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>maybe my connection goes to the moon and back?
10:21<Xaroth>OwenS: traceroute ?
10:21<Xaroth>and wtf @ Eddi o_O
10:21<OwenS>.42? why?
10:21<OwenS>And I can't from my fast connection ATM :P
10:22<Xaroth>because that's my datacenter?
10:22<OwenS>OK no AMS-IX here
10:22<Xaroth>well ams-ix pings can fluctuate a LOT
10:22<Xaroth>so I usually test to my datacenter and judge from that :P
10:23*OwenS sends very long privmsg :p
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>from inside the university i only get *
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>or rather * * *
10:23<OwenS>20 ( 74.863 ms 78.421 ms 80.670 ms is my last hop
10:26<TrueBrain>why oh why does /etc/security/access.conf not work .. if I deny access from all, I can still make a SSH session :(
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10:33<Eddi|zuHause>maybe that's an admin-protection ;)
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10:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, we've all heard of many of these "damn, i just shut myself out from this server" problems ;)
10:38<TrueBrain>not a real issue here, as I work in VPSes :)
10:39<OwenS>For me I just ssh into the Xen dom0 and login which connects me to the system console :p
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10:46<Eddi|zuHause>anybody know how i insert a custom script for a global hotkey?
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10:47<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i might have found something relevant
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10:54<TrueBrain>who knows how to make exim only deliver mail for a given group?
10:55<OwenS>Heh... my mail servers all deliver to virtual accounts
10:56<TrueBrain>local delivery for .. but with LDAP, there are many 'local' accounts :p
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11:39<LordAzamath>hmm.. how many hq levels were there? 4 or 5?
11:40<TrueBrain>no worries LordAzamath, we all talk in ourself too :)
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12:02<TrueBrain>I think it is stupid exim4 can only deliver to all local accounts .. why can't you limit that (in a simple way) to a single group ...
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12:42<blathijs>TrueBrain: I think you can do that, but probably not with Debian's standard configuration wizard
12:42<TrueBrain>blathijs: yes, which annoys me ..
12:42<TrueBrain>but okay, I am now trying to add a filter to nss
12:42<TrueBrain>which is most likely the better way to go anyway :p
12:42<TrueBrain>but MemberOf doesn't want to work :(
12:46<blathijs>TrueBrain: I'll have a look later
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12:50<blathijs>TrueBrain: Do you want to check the primary group?
12:50<blathijs>TrueBrain: Or any group membership?
12:51<TrueBrain>primary group is rarely relevant
12:52<blathijs>Groups from LDAP?
12:52<TrueBrain>what else?
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12:56<blathijs>How is something like: condition = ${lookup ldap {LDAPURL??sub?(&(uid=$local_part)(memberOf=some-group)}{$value}fail}
12:56<blathijs>On the relevant router?
12:56<TrueBrain>blathijs: as I said: I want to do NSS filtering :)
12:57<TrueBrain>it is not that nice that all ldap users show up as local users :p
12:57<TrueBrain>might give .. future problems, I say ;)
12:57<blathijs>No, you said you were going to try that ;-p
12:57<TrueBrain>ah :p
12:57<TrueBrain>but I noted that it would be a better way ;)
12:57<blathijs>If you don't want those users to show up as local users, then yes
12:58<TrueBrain>well .. it means all local software sees every user as local
12:58<blathijs>But I guess they still need an account on other vservers, so removing their uidNumber is not an option?
12:58<TrueBrain>can lead to .. exploits? :p
12:58<TrueBrain>exactly :p
12:58<blathijs>Hmm, not sure how NSS filtering works :-)
12:59<TrueBrain>filter <map> <filter>
12:59<TrueBrain>but I can't get ldapsearch to do memberof shit
12:59<TrueBrain>so ...
13:00<TrueBrain>things keep on talking about 'member' entry which is in core.scheme
13:00<TrueBrain>but either phpldapadmin doesn't show it, or it isn't there
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13:01<blathijs>TrueBrain: Perhaps you should try ldapvi, which gives a rather raw view on your LDAP entries
13:01<blathijs>TrueBrain: Though phpldapadmin should be able to do that as well
13:02<blathijs>I'm not exactly sure how this member stuff is supposed to work, I'm using uniqueMember, which references full dn's instead of usernames
13:02<blathijs>But I had to compose some custom objectclasses to get that to work nicely
13:03<TrueBrain>one might expect that group-lookups are very comon ...
13:03<TrueBrain>it is easier to make an objectclass and use that as group :p
13:04<blathijs>Well, I had it working with standard posixAccounts and posixGroups before that IIRC, but I wanted to be able to define groups of people without an account as well
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13:04<TrueBrain>that I need too ;)
13:04<blathijs>e.g., people that only have a forwarding mail address
13:05<TrueBrain>I loaded some memberOf overlay
13:05<TrueBrain>but still nothing :p
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13:06<blathijs>TrueBrain: I can have a look tomorrow, if you're still struggling by then :-)
13:06<blathijs>I'm off to a meeting in a few minutes
13:07<TrueBrain>tnx anyway :)
13:07<_ln>hi blathijs and bye blathijs
13:07<TrueBrain>I am going to get some food ...
13:07<blathijs>(Btw, did you write down what you actually want to do with LDAP already? Or did you just start configging? :-p)
13:07<TrueBrain>I don't have to write down wha tI want, as I know what I want :)
13:08<blathijs>Even then, writing it down helps :-p
13:08<TrueBrain>getting it to work, helps more
13:08<blathijs>And I might be able to give you some advice on schema design, if I know what you want as well :-p
13:08<TrueBrain>authentication and groups, that is all :)
13:08<TrueBrain>go to your meeting, we talk later :)
13:09<blathijs>I'm still waiting for $gf to arrive (I'm at the trefpunt in Utrecht Centraal currently, the Debian Developer that was going to sign my gpg key is delayed, so that meeting is cancelled :-p)
13:10<TrueBrain>haha :)
13:12<TrueBrain>LDAP really doesn't update anything automatic :p If you remove a user, it is not removed from the group :p
13:13<_ln>2009-07-01 22:39 <Xaroth> people would argue that Utrecht is worth visiting
13:13<_ln>2009-07-01 22:39 <Xaroth> I.. still don't know what dope they are smoking
13:15<blathijs>TrueBrain: That is something your frontend should handle for you, but there are hardly any decent frontends...
13:15<TrueBrain>blathijs: for the rest, see PM :p
13:15<blathijs>TrueBrain: I'll look at that tomorrow :-)
13:16<TrueBrain> hmm .. I just manual inserted something phpldapadmin told me wasn't there ...
13:16<TrueBrain>go figure
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13:24<TrueBrain>lol .. problem is dat PosixGroup and GroupOfNames are both structural objects, and can't be assigned to one container ...
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13:38<TrueBrain>yippie, fixed it :)
13:41<blathijs>TrueBrain: Yup, that is exactly why I created my own schema
13:41<TrueBrain>there is an rfc which makes posixGroup auxilary :)
13:41<TrueBrain>seems to work :p
13:41<blathijs>TrueBrain:;a=blob;f=etc/ldap/schema/custom.schema;h=90d4106ed16cffb8dc7982775a88e06dccaf07e3;hb=ldap <-- If you're interested
13:43<TrueBrain>hmm .. this schema I now use doesn't give the posix groups how they should be given
13:43<TrueBrain>(as in: they don't show the members :p)
13:43<TrueBrain>dinner now first
13:44<blathijs>My schema doesn't really work with phpldapadmin in a useful yet :-)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r17207 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnaullv
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 changes by IPG
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: indonesian - 1 changes by prof
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: serbian - 12 changes by etran
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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14:27<@petern>heh, two consecutive translator commits
14:28<frosch123>yeah, ottd is always moving :) at least one commit per day
14:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r17208 /trunk/src/table/engines.h: -Cleanup: Remove never accessed EngineInfo for engine 255.
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14:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r17209 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Move cargo_type from (Rail|Road|Ship)VehicleInfo to EngineInfo.
14:38<frosch123>i know, you already had a patch for that :p
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14:39<@petern>i had a comment
14:39<@petern>but you ripped it out!
14:40<frosch123>that one :)
14:40<frosch123>so, ai_rank, currently unused, will noai ever be interested in that?
14:41<frosch123>hmm, it does not hurt though
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14:43<@petern>as i did go to the effort of implementing it :s
14:45<OwenS>Ooh ooh ooh, even better news, the router that I'm being shipped is DD-WRT/OpenWRT compatible
14:48<SpComb>is the router yours?
14:48<SpComb>and I'd write that as "OpenWRT/DD-WRT compatible"
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15:00<OwenS>SpComb: yes it's ours :p
15:00<OwenS>The main purpose of said hacking is VLan trunking anyway
15:01-!-Priskiina is now known as Priski
15:02<OwenS>As in, shifting the Wi-Fi stuff onto it's own VLAN to seperate it from trusted devices :p
15:02<SpComb>you can also have multiple SSIDs with different encryption settings as well :)
15:03<SpComb>i.e. an open guest WLAN on one VLAN, WPA2-PSK on one, WPA2 with RAIDUS on another
15:03<SpComb>(but byte counters don't work for those per-ssid network interfaces... so no snmp stats for WDS links)
15:05<OwenS>One WPA-PSK, which gets you the internet and nothing else. One open, which gets you to the proxy servers :p
15:05<SpComb>with transparent image rotation
15:06<Xaroth>as in, a proxy that turns every image upside-down?
15:06<Xaroth>cuz that would be awesome :P
15:06<OwenS>How about with colour inversion? :p
15:07<OwenS>Hmm... Hopefully it will be a Rev C model; the older revisions are Ubicom processor based and not hackable
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15:12<fonsinchen>In LoadUnloadVehicle there is the following piece of code:
15:13<frosch123>you try it every day, don't you?
15:13<fonsinchen>I strongly guess that this is bogus as it leaves v->load_unload_time remaining at 0
15:13<frosch123>rb is not in this channel :)
15:14<fonsinchen>If I remove that condition and thus make every vehicle stop loading immediately after starting, it should still work, shouldn't it?
15:15<fonsinchen>Now I have a rather large cargodist savegame which works fine with the condition like it is and immediately crashes with the condition removed.
15:15<fonsinchen>like this: openttd: /home/alve/projekte/openttd/src/economy.cpp:1144: void LoadUnloadVehicle(Vehicle*, CargoReservation&): Assertion `v->load_unload_time_rem != 0' failed.
15:15<fonsinchen>If I was really fast I could have created the same situation by manually reversing that train.
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15:16<frosch123>so it crashes when you remove the test? well, why do you remove it then?
15:17<fonsinchen>because it is really hard to trigger that condition
15:17<frosch123>load_unload_time is shared between pbs and loading btw
15:17<fonsinchen>and I need to trigger that case to test if that's the cause of someone else's crash
15:17<frosch123>and if a train is reversed and reserves a path it will likely deal with it
15:18-!-nicfer [~Usuario@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:18<frosch123>well, I still did not understand you. do you want to add a 'load_unload_time = 0;' inside the if block?
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15:19<fonsinchen>no it is 0 there already
15:19<fonsinchen>because it has been checked before
15:19<fonsinchen>the problem is exactly that. If it enters LoadUnloadVehicle again after that block, it crashes
15:19<fonsinchen>so it needs to be set to 1
15:20<fonsinchen>(or whatever else, but not 0)
15:20<planetmaker>fonsinchen: I can confirm this error in r17170
15:20<Noldo>or it needs to not enter LoadUnloadVehicle again
15:20<planetmaker>in trunk
15:20<fonsinchen>like a few lines further: v->load_unload_time_rem = max(1, unloading_time);
15:21<fonsinchen>I don't know the exact code path, but obviously it can happen that it enters again
15:22<frosch123>well, open a fs task, rb knows that code better
15:22<fonsinchen>planetmaker, can you give me that save game?
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15:58<fonsinchen>nvm, I have found a suitable savegame myself.
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16:25<LaSeandre>and infinite time to write the complete works of shakespeare
16:25<R0b0t1>And infinite monkeys will be arrested for copyright violations in the process.
16:26<Fast2>No, but I wodered what this is
16:26<R0b0t1>As they'd randomly make other plays and stuff too.
16:26<TrueBrain>LaSeandre: you only need either infinite time or infinite monkeys, not both
16:28<fonsinchen>But it doesn't hurt to have both.
16:30*R0b0t1 wonders if monkeys are turing-complete
16:30<R0b0t1>You could solve a lot of problems with lots of monkeys.
16:30<TrueBrain>LaSeandre: you only need either infinite time or infinite monkeys, not both
16:30<TrueBrain>wrong screen, sorry LaSeandre
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16:55<Eddi|zuHause>R0b0t1: the main assumption there is that they can read what they previously wrote
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>then the proof should be easy
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16:57<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: monkeys can't read
16:57<TrueBrain>that is the whole idea .. they just .. type something
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i meant about the turing-completeness
16:57<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yes, that was about the monkeys
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: and the shakespear thing is flawed
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>it assumes that the monkeys do not get into an endless loop
16:58<TrueBrain>in infinite time, even that doesn't matter
16:58<TrueBrain>no matter what your entropy is, in infinite time, everything happens
16:58<OwenS>if it's an infinte loop it does :p
16:59<LaSeandre>i seem to have sparked a debate about Turing and infinite monkeys...
16:59<LaSeandre>oh well
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16:59<OwenS>I was going to point out that's normal round here...
16:59<TrueBrain>no, infinite monkeys were already here
16:59<TrueBrain>they are crawling all over the place
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>they take no end!
17:00<OwenS>Send them all to 1 Infinte Loop, CA, USA :p
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17:01*TrueBrain tries to make the final blocks for his 16bit convertor
17:01<TrueBrain>but has a hard time on the very last pieces :(
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17:04<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, you know the 90-90 rule ;)
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>90% of the time is spent on 90% of the development
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>and the other 90% of the time is spent on the rest
17:05<TrueBrain>.... doesn't make sense ...
17:05<TrueBrain>90% of the time .. the other 90% ..
17:06<TrueBrain>you can't do math :(
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>that's the point ;)
17:06<TrueBrain>that is what you get when you send infinite monkeys in an endless loop :(
17:06<Sacro>i know that
17:06<OwenS>The point is that you get 90% done... then discovery ou have another 90% to do
17:06<TrueBrain>IT IS A WRONG POINT!
17:06<R0b0t1>He just can't do it 90% of the time
17:06<Sacro>we got told that at uni
17:06<TrueBrain>at my uni they at least make sense .. 90% of the time you spent on 10% of your app
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: the point is, everything takes longer than anticipated
17:07<TrueBrain>I don't care! It doesn't add up! I refuse to believe! THERE IS NO SPOON!
17:07<R0b0t1>Yeah, it's a spork.
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>psst... your OCD is coming through ;)
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>R0b0t1: that's a dangerous field you are entering
17:07<TrueBrain>do you know what day it is tomorrow?
17:07<R0b0t1>Uh, the 18th?
17:08<TrueBrain>do you know what that means?
17:08<R0b0t1>Another painful amount of time?
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>summer semester
17:08<TrueBrain>do you know what happened 364 days ago? (and tomorrow 365)
17:08<R0b0t1>The same day?
17:08<TrueBrain>it was a very good day for OpenTTD
17:09<TrueBrain>nope, that was longer ago
17:09<TrueBrain>it was a day that made me so happy
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>you quit? :p
17:09<TrueBrain>no, I do that all the time
17:10<TrueBrain>I just received word that in fact it isn't until the 19th
17:10<TrueBrain>14:06 CEST
17:10<TrueBrain>until then, you can only guess, and I won't tell :)
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17:11<Eddi|zuHause>> svn log -r '{2008-08-18}:{2008-08-19}'
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>svn: Failed to find time on revision 8604
17:11<TrueBrain>haha, subversion error :)
17:11<TrueBrain>I guess we should install 1.6 soon
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17:11<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, and it's your fault :p
17:11<TrueBrain>well .. not completely .. Rubidium did the filtering :p
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>you tinkered with the internal data ;)
17:15<TrueBrain>I hope subversion will accept the vhost patch soon :(
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17:46<pavel1269>time for bed, gn folks :-)
17:46<TrueBrain>night pavel1269
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18:15*OwenS wonders where the hell one finds a TTL S/PDIF (AKA Motherboard Header) to TOSLINK (AKA Optical S/PDIF) bracket...
18:16<TrueBrain>I would guess in a store
18:16<TrueBrain>but that is too obvious I guess
18:16<SpComb>packaged along with your motherboard
18:17<Nite_Owl>self fabrication
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19:05<R0b0t1>Is "unload and leave empty" pretty much a transfer order?
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>there is a difference in behaviour when the station accepts the cargo
19:17<TrueBrain>whoho, my static recompiler seems to work very nice :)
19:17<TrueBrain>yes yes
19:21*TrueBrain is happy
19:21<TrueBrain>and I wish you all a very good night
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19:48<OwenS>Is it just me... Or should a supposed government body NOT own patents? ...
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19:54<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: i don't really know anything, but afair, american government employees cannot claim copyright over things they produce while they are working. i don't know in how far that extends to patents
19:54<OwenS>Even worse: this is an Austalian government body with US patents....
19:55<OwenS>Which has basically decided to suplement it's funding with patent trolling
19:55<reldred1>Are we whinging about CSIRO patent trolling?
19:55<OwenS>Yes :p
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>why should the australian government not be able to hold US patents?
19:56<reldred1>Yeah, but CSIRO make all sorts of cool shit, so they're allowed to patent troll as far as I'm concerned :P
19:56<reldred1>If it was some legal entitity that did nothing, and just patent trolled for quick cash, then I'd be annoyed
19:57<reldred1>God knows our government won't give them anywhere near enough money, they gotta get their cash somehow
19:57<OwenS>OK. Please stop killing my Wi-Fi kit vendors :p
19:57<OwenS>But isn't government work generally supposed to be made freely available?
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>no, why would it?
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>it's every government's own decision to do that
20:00<OwenS>I guess I'm just of the opinion that stuff people have paid money to the government for should be freely available - not available if you pay extra money
20:02<R0b0t1>What do you mean gov't work?
20:03<R0b0t1>I'm pretty sure it's free for the people, they just convince the gov't to fund something.
20:03<OwenS>CSIRO is a government funded and owned research body
20:03<OwenS>Which also is in the business of patent licensing (*cough* trollling *cough*)
20:10<Pygma>It's the citizens tax money that makes those things, I'd be of the opinion that all government produced stuff should be public domain
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20:32<Jerimiah40>Standard cloverleaf junction sucks: Discuss
20:32<Eddi|zuHause>your command is my ignorance...
20:34<R0b0t1>It's decent
20:35<R0b0t1>But i'd go for a star instead
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20:35<R0b0t1>Not as "sharp"
20:42<Eddi|zuHause>a cloverleaf causes frequent gridlocks when traffic increases
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>especially when trains are longer than the "leaf"
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>possibly path signals can help there
20:45<OwenS>Cloverleafs must be made unacceptably huge with realistic acceleration. And even bigger if you have more than 1 line per direction :p
20:48<OwenS>Cheeeky cat is trying to steal the milk from my cereal :p
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>a Česky cat?
20:50-!-Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:51<OwenS>A little black cat :p
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>and black cats can't come from czechia?
20:52<OwenS>Well she's a British Shorthair, so no :p
20:53<Jerimiah40>Yeah, I ended up doing the star with tunnels
20:53<Jerimiah40>so hopefully it'll jam a little less often :P
20:54<Jerimiah40>I spent about 2 years guiding trains through it, so I decided I'd have to do some construction :P
21:02<Zuu>What about doing point to point, guarantied free from blocking ;)
21:02<Jerimiah40>yeah, well :P
21:02<Zuu>Or hitting the pause button, should be quite safe too ;)
21:02<Jerimiah40>I'm playing multiplayer though
21:03<Jerimiah40>the other guy tends to frown on that :P
21:03<Zuu>hehe :-)
21:03<Zuu>Doing custom-junctionts often save you a bit space. At least they usually don't require a lot of uniform space.
21:04<Jerimiah40>yeah... I haven't played the game in a LONG time though, so I'm kinda re-learning... I was never very good with junctions to being with :P
21:05<Zuu>Just start out small, trying to do split before merge whenever it is cheap and then expand as traffic grows.
21:06<Jerimiah40>yeah... I think the problem now is that my two biggest stations are too close to the mainline
21:06<Zuu>Sounds like an interesting problem to solve :-)
21:06<Jerimiah40>lol, yeah
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 18 00:00:53 2009