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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-08-20

---Logopened Thu Aug 20 00:00:01 2009
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02:23<Terkhen>hello
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03:33<Xaroth>Eddi|zuHause: irssi does not approve your connection then :P
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04:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: matthijs * r17226 /trunk/media/openttd.desktop.in:
04:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: Remove the Encoding entry from the openttd.desktop file.
04:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - This entry has been deprecated since version 0.9.4 (2006) of the desktop entry specification.
04:58<TrueBrain>gooooooood morning
04:58<blathijs>hello TrueBrain
05:00-!-Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@client-82-12-225-105.brnt.adsl.virgin.net] has joined #openttd
05:01<TrueBrain>I hate it when there is no 720p release yet of a serie ...
05:01<TrueBrain>I don't do 480 :(
05:03<blathijs>TrueBrain: You're spoiled! ;-p
05:03<blathijs>Perhaps there's an MPEG1 version somewhere?
05:03<TrueBrain>hehe :)
05:03<Xaroth>lol
05:05<TrueBrain>oh well, guess have to wait :p
05:06<Xaroth>more time you can spend on RE :)
05:06<TrueBrain>that ... but I have to solve this stupid thing ther :p
05:06<TrueBrain>or I roll out LDAP a bit more :p
05:07<FauxFaux>Download it in .wav and .avi format for better quality.
05:07<TrueBrain>.avi yes, I think that is so much better quality than MPEG1 ..
05:07<Xaroth>TrueBrain: see of it as a challenge :)
05:08*FauxFaux points out the mild satire in his statement.
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05:55<TrueBrain>NOTICE: bugs.openttd.org will be under heavy maintaince: expect errors
05:56<@petern>bugs.bugs.openttd.org
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06:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: matthijs * r17227 /trunk/src/unix.cpp: -Feature [Unix]: Only use colorized error output on terminals.
06:02<TrueBrain>2 violations of coding style :o :p :p
06:02<TrueBrain>hihi :)
06:03-!-Aali_ [~aali@84-217-31-83.tn.glocalnet.net] has joined #openttd
06:04<blathijs>Yeah, it's been a while since my last commit I guess ;-p, Rubidium also pointed that out
06:04<blathijs>TrueBrain: What are the exact violations? {} is mandatory?
06:05-!-Aali [~aali@84-217-24-189.tn.glocalnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:05<blathijs>and comments should not appear after a statement?
06:05<TrueBrain>1) /* comments on a newline, or // at the end
06:05<blathijs>Ah, right
06:05<TrueBrain>2) if () a;\nelse b; or if () {\na;\n} else {\nb;\n}
06:05<TrueBrain>:p
06:05<blathijs>bah, // is ugly :-p
06:05<TrueBrain>both are ugly :)
06:06<TrueBrain>that is what amuzed me :) Your style is beter in my opinion .. yet .. no OpenTTD coding style ;)
06:06<blathijs>That style for if isn't documented on the wiki?
06:06<blathijs>Or am I totally misreading thing?
06:06<blathijs>s
06:06<Yexo>blathijs: http://wiki.openttd.org/Coding_style#Control_flow
06:07<TrueBrain>"In if without an else statements, a single statement may follow on the same line. "
06:07<blathijs>I do have an else
06:07<TrueBrain>haha, okay, it is poorly written :)
06:07<blathijs>In if/else, switch, and loop statements, following statements should be inside brackets on a different line. <-- And I guess this says the brackets are mandatory?
06:08<TrueBrain>guess so ;)
06:08-!-Exl [~myself@cp1224652-a.roemd1.lb.home.nl] has joined #openttd
06:08<TrueBrain>and the other:
06:08<TrueBrain># Use /* */ for single line comments.
06:08<TrueBrain># Use // at the end of a command line to indicate comments.
06:08<blathijs>Yeah, I believe that one :-)
06:10<blathijs>is while(foo)\nbar(); allowed, or does that require brackets as well?
06:10<TrueBrain>or on a single line :)
06:10<Yexo>either "while (foo) bar();" or "while (foo) {\nbar();\n}"
06:10<@petern>brackets or single line
06:10<TrueBrain>dunno if that is written down, but in general the code follow this: use \n with {}, or no \n without {}
06:13-!-Aali_ is now known as Aali
06:13<blathijs>Right, let me state that a bit more clearly on the wiki then :-)_
06:13<TrueBrain>enjoy :p
06:16<blathijs>is if (foo) bar();\n else { \n baz(); \n } allowed?
06:16<TrueBrain>it looks very ugly
06:16<TrueBrain>but dunno
06:16<TrueBrain>hmm .. BAZ is in 2 weekends :)
06:17<blathijs>BAZ?
06:17<TrueBrain>BAZ!
06:17<TrueBrain>baz.climbing.nl I believe
06:18<blathijs>What is "bouldering" ?
06:19<TrueBrain>Boulderen?
06:20<Yexo>blathijs: for if/else blocks brackets are required
06:20<TrueBrain>"klimmen zonder gordel", I always say :)
06:20<blathijs>hmkay
06:20<blathijs>Yexo: So even when you have a single statement?
06:20<Yexo>blathijs: leaving brackest out is only allowed for single if/while/etc. statements without else block
06:21<Yexo>and only if the statement following it is on the same line
06:21<blathijs>12:05:51 < TrueBrain> 2) if () a;\nelse b; <-- So this is not allowed?
06:21<Yexo>nope
06:21<blathijs>good, since I think it's ugly :-p
06:23<OwenS>blathijs: if(a)\n\tb();\nelse\n\tc(); doesn't though
06:23<blathijs>OwenS: doesn't what?
06:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17228 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: some coding style fixes
06:23<OwenS>blathijs: look ugly :p
06:24<TrueBrain>"Rubidium voegt een woord bij een daad"
06:24<blathijs>OwenS: Nope, but that's not allowed it seems
06:24<TrueBrain>(sorry, I fail to translate)
06:24<blathijs>TrueBrain: Shouldn't that be the other way around?
06:24<TrueBrain>really? :p
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06:27<blathijs>So, now the else b; syntax is really no longer allowed :-p
06:28<blathijs>And the wiki is more clear now as well, I hope
06:29<Yexo>it is, at least to me :)
06:29<@petern>hasn't been allowed for a long time
06:29<@petern>nor is
06:29<@petern>if (foo) {
06:29<@petern> bar();
06:29<@petern>} else baz();
06:30-!-Mark [~Mark@5ED06D96.cable.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
06:30<@petern>we are strict, we impose RULES, JOIN US
06:30<blathijs>And one more wiki edit (It should be } else, not } \n else)
06:31<@petern>openttd's source is some of the nicest i've ever read
06:31<blathijs>That has been different :-p
06:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: matthijs * r17229 /trunk/src/unix.cpp: -Codechange: Coding style fixes.
06:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r17230 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Fix (r15027): don't assert when an AI uses AI*Mode objects incorrectly but crash the AI instead
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06:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r17231 /trunk/src/ai/ai_instance.cpp: -Fix [FS#3134]: AIs that crashed during Save() weren't killed as they should
06:46<TrueBrain>and the AIs get more and more isolated :) Good progress ;)
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06:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r17232 /trunk/src/ai/ai_instance.cpp: -Fix (r17223): Kill an AI when it tries to Sleep / execute a DoCommand during Save() instead of failing to save
06:59<@petern>this is "don't be tolerant of AIs misbehaving" i guess
07:00<Yexo>yes, the main problem was that a misbehaving AI could make OpenTTD crash/assert
07:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r17233 /trunk/src/ai/ai_instance.cpp: -Fix (r17232): typo
07:05<TrueBrain>I HATE FIREFOX!!!
07:05<TrueBrain>it keeps changing the case of something I type
07:05<TrueBrain>(a login field)
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07:09<@petern>yeah
07:09<@petern>it likes to autocorrect unless you hit exactly the right place
07:12<blathijs>TrueBrain: That also happens when you remove a part of a search query for example
07:13<TrueBrain>but then you can abort that with hitting ESC
07:13<TrueBrain>this you cannot
07:13<blathijs>then you press enter to start the search, but instead FF takes the enter as "please complete my text for me!"
07:13<blathijs>Ah, that is stupid
07:16<TrueBrain>euhm ... I made a TINY mistake ... all emailaddresses and real names are gone from FlySpray :p
07:17<blathijs>Good thing you have a backup database from yesterday, I'd say. Right? :-p
07:17*TrueBrain looks the other way
07:17<TrueBrain>but you make a very good point .. our backup policy does currently not include the database
07:21<TrueBrain>might have to do that our DB is about 500 MiB in size ..
07:22<TrueBrain>but okay, LDAP migration will happen soon anyway :)
07:23<blathijs>TrueBrain: Were you planning to import accounts from the various databases we have already? Or should everybody just create a new account?
07:23<TrueBrain>blathijs: I wanted to create a page where you can link existing accounts
07:26<blathijs>Ah, that makes sense. Since most of those apps will still need a separate user db anyway I guess?
07:26<TrueBrain>yup
07:26<TrueBrain>at new login, the account is created immediatly
07:26<TrueBrain>at existing login, the new data is retrieved from LDAP (and here I made the mistake by forgetting WHERE :p)
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07:30<TrueBrain>either way, bugs.openttd.org should be back operational now
07:31<blathijs>:-)
07:32<Yexo>TrueBrain: the "Date" column in the event log shows my username instead of a date
07:32<TrueBrain>url?
07:32<TrueBrain>(I always love vague reports :p)
07:32<Yexo>https://secure.openttd.org/bugs/reports?project=1
07:33<Yexo>then select some task and press Show
07:33<TrueBrain>Show?
07:34<Yexo>yes, the button with the text "Show" on it
07:34<TrueBrain>oh wait, you need to be logged in to see that page :p
07:34<Yexo>yes ;)
07:34<TrueBrain>cool! Somehow .. I think .. that bug has to be ther efor a long long time :p
07:34<TrueBrain>as I didn't even come near that code :)
07:34<Yexo>not for "a long time", or I'd have spotted it earlier
07:35<Yexo>I'm pretty sure it worked a few days ago
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07:45<TrueBrain> ["dateformat_extended"]=>
07:45<TrueBrain> string(9) "TrueBrain"
07:45<TrueBrain>cool :)
07:46<TrueBrain>that happened for a handful of users Yexo
07:46<Yexo>aha, thanks
07:46<Yexo>clearing that field fixed it :)
07:46<TrueBrain>it seems the DB crashed over it or something
07:47<TrueBrain>as some fields are complete garbage
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08:06<TrueBrain>I recovered a portion of the emails for FS (about 50%)
08:06<TrueBrain>only newer accounts :p
08:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17234 /branches/0.7/ (7 files in 4 dirs): (log message trimmed)
08:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
08:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Remove the (deprecated since 2006) Encoding entry from the openttd.desktop file (r17226)
08:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: With time tables vehicles would stay in the 'loading' state after they have finished loading [FS#3129, FS#3130] (r17222)
08:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not ignore white space changes (e.g. alignment fixes) in the exporter (r17220)
08:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Accept monthly production values in the scenario editor [FS#2406] (r17198)
08:19<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Change: [Unix] Only use colorized error output on interactive terminals (r17227)
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08:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17235 /branches/0.7/src/ (12 files in 2 dirs):
08:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
08:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] IsRoadTypeAvailable(GetCurrentRoadType()) was not a precondition for several AIRoad::* functions (r17203)
08:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Do not say you are building a depot when you are actually building a station (API docs typo) (r17201)
08:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Change: [NoAI] When the API requests a string as parameter allow every squirrel type and convert to a string [FS#3101] (r17221)
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08:54<Eddi|zuHause>you know what? i love "Date Format" fields with no documentation about the syntax elements...
08:54<TrueBrain>then again, you are not normal :p
08:54<@petern>"we assume you know php format dates"
08:54<@petern>"or microsoft.net"
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08:57<Eddi|zuHause>well, at least that would give something to google for...
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09:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17236 /branches/0.7/src/ (13 files in 5 dirs):
09:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
09:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] AIs that crashed during Save() were not killed as they should [FS#3134] (r17231)
09:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Do not assert when an AI uses AI*Mode objects incorrectly but crash the AI instead (r17230)
09:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Change: [NoAI] Crash an AI when it uses a DoCommand / Sleep instead of just printing an error message in the AI Debug Window [FS#2980] (r17223)
09:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r17237 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_changelog.hpp: -Update: AI changelog
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09:43<pavel1269>hello
09:45<TrueBrain>howdie pavel1269 :)
09:45<pavel1269>again on pool ... what a great weather :-)
09:45<pavel1269>*was at
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09:45<TrueBrain>today we wanted to go to the beach
09:46<TrueBrain>then we notice our local weather institute issued a wind warning
09:46<TrueBrain>we are glad we didn't go :p
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09:55<pavel1269>why so, big waves? :-)
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10:18<_ln>if we have a 4-digit code for opening a door, how many tries does it take to find the code by brute force?
10:20<TrueBrain>O(N)
10:21<TrueBrain>so assuming you do a lineair brute force, it would take the pincode amount of tries
10:21<TrueBrain>I really hope it is 9999
10:21<Yexo>why 9999? I'd expect 10000
10:21<_ln>right, but usually the keypads look at the last four buttons you pressed, which reduces the number a lot.
10:22<TrueBrain>Yexo: I said I hope the pin was 9999
10:22<Yexo>aha :)
10:22<TrueBrain>which means 10000 attempts are required
10:22<_ln>if you press 12345, you already covered 1234 and 2345.
10:22<TrueBrain>randomly insert any amount of number, if possible let a monkey do it
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: some keypads i know require you to press a "start" and "accept" button
10:32<_ln>i haven't seen such, but yeah why not.
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>but seriously... why brute force it, when you can just watch someone type it in?
10:32<TrueBrain>alarms mostly have that :) Or a 'A' or what ever
10:32<TrueBrain>or browse the internet to find the mastercode? :p
10:35<_ln>i was just pondering how many key presses long is the optimal sequence.
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>have any special object in mind? :p
10:37-!-Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd
10:37<_ln>negative
10:48<_ln>fortunately someone has researched this already: http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1520430 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bruijn_sequence#Uses
10:48-!-williham [~wito@25.244.251.212.customer.cdi.no] has joined #openttd
10:49<_ln>so on average about 5000 key presses should be enough...
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10:54<@petern>i think it might lock you out before that
10:54<Audigex>hihi
10:54<z-MaTRiX>hey
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10:55<_ln>if we are talking about a keypad at the main door of a building for example, i've never heard of those locking out anyone. might be different with something more sophisticated such as cars.
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11:07<Eddi|zuHause>i've never seen a keypad on a car
11:09<_ln>me neither but i haven't been to america
11:13<Audigex>i have, although it was modified
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11:28<_ln>perhaps the most useful site of the internet: http://www.geocities.com/what_the_flux/
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11:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: matthijs * r17238 /trunk/src/gfxinit.cpp:
11:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Clean up CheckExternalFiles a bit and improve the error message it
11:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: outputs. This makes the function return faster in the common case when all
11:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: files are in order, by not doing another set of MD5 checks.
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11:59<Eddi|zuHause>didn't they want to shut down geocities?
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>i get a 503
11:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r17239 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp:
11:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change [FS#2802]: allow overbuilding the front tile of a roadstation / roaddepot with road
11:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: to be consistent with overbuilding the front tile of tunnels/bridges and also to make it easier for AIs to
11:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: connect roadstations and roaddepots to the road in front of it
12:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: matthijs * r17240 /branches/0.7/src/ (gfxinit.cpp openttd.cpp):
12:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
12:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Change: Improve error output on missing or corrupt files (r17238).
12:04<_ln>i don't get a 503
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>i do.
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>"Service Temporarily Unavailable"
12:05<_ln>anyway, the topic is "Variations and Inconsistencies with the Temporal Display Unit in the Back to the Future Trilogy"
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's a movie, damnit
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>fun fact: with the hydro plant that blew up in russia, they could have powered five time machines :p
12:11<_ln>"Commentary: Take a look at how the horizontal part of the "T" intersects the vertical part of the "T" in the two images. In Figure 3A, the vertical-"T" intersects the horizontal-"T" with a little arrowhead overlapping the horizontal-"T". In Figure 3B, there is no arrowhead overlap."
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.heise.de/newsticker/Banking-Trojaner-mit-Delphi-Virus-infiziert--/meldung/143755 <- this is way cooler
12:12-!-FooBar_ is now known as FooBar
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>"Banking Trojans are found infected with a virus"
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>"the Delphi Virus infects the IDE, and automatically spreads into every compiled program"
12:13<_ln>great
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>"our prophecy from december announced this for the 30th of may, we apologize for the wrong date"
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12:26<planetmaker>indeed a very good one. I had quite a laugh when I read that ^^
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13:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17241 /trunk/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Change: make a distinction between missing and corrupted data files. If (at least) one data file is missing do not consider the set to be useable. Do also no autodetect sets with missing files.
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13:39<_ln>Eddi|zuHause: try that geocities link again now
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, seems to work now
13:40<_ln>makes me wonder how much time people have
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>hm... it didn't load all images...
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r17242 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt german.txt simplified_chinese.txt swedish.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 4 changes by Gavin
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 10 changes by joeprusa
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by Roujin
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: swedish - 7 changes by hgj
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15:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17243 /trunk/src/3rdparty/minilzo/ (lzoconf.h minilzo.c minilzo.h): -Fix (r17216): undo 'damage' by svn:keywords
15:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17244 /trunk/src/lang/ (52 files in 2 dirs): -Change: add $Id$ to the language files too
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15:57<z-MaTRiX>ĥy
15:58<_ln>well said
15:58<z-MaTRiX>şųŗę
15:58<Xaroth>impressive
16:01<valhallasw>aaaaah, unicode
16:01<valhallasw>it makes life so much more fun
16:01<Xaroth>unicode? i doubt it
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16:02<Xaroth>more like 13375p34k
16:02<valhallasw>but with non-ascii characters.
16:02<z-MaTRiX>its utf-8
16:02<_ln>this is an UTF-8 please channel, so no problem.
16:02<Xaroth>my client doesn't do utf8
16:02<Xaroth>but it does show that
16:03<_ln>sorry, "a UTF-8 ... channel"
16:03<Terkhen>that made me remember to turn on UTF-8
16:03<z-MaTRiX>ņįčę
16:05*frosch123 still did not coded a image->utf-8 converter using characters 0x2800 - 0x28FF
16:05<Terkhen>I still see only gibberish, though
16:06<valhallasw>Terkhen: 22:03 < TordeQ> allutf8; jp text: あいうえお賢い; russian text: АБВГҐД; chinese text: 蘭葉春葳蕤, 桂華秋皎潔; korean text: 훈민정음; various eu accents: éèàùêâîôûçëïüÿčšžäöáíñ
16:07<frosch123>Ґ <- what's that, can't remember such a letter
16:07<ddfreyne>∀ characters ∃ someone who knows what they are
16:07<_ln>it's not in russian alphabet
16:07<Terkhen>mmm... no, it's not working
16:07<_ln>modern russian at least
16:08-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@189.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...]
16:08<@petern>Ґ < that?
16:08<_ln>that.
16:08<@petern>is cyrillic capital letter ghe with upturn
16:09<OwenS>∀ <- Turn A - Mathematical symbol meaning "sum of all constituent parts"?
16:09-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@189.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
16:09<_ln>OwenS: hardly a sum
16:09<_ln>petern: cyrillic sure, russian not
16:09<ddfreyne>OwenS: means for-all
16:10<ddfreyne>it's more like a logical symbol than a mathematical symbol
16:10<ddfreyne>(predicate logic)
16:10<z-MaTRiX>༿
16:10<OwenS>Sorry yes, "for all"
16:10<@petern>
16:10-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1C705.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:10<ddfreyne>and the inverse E means there-exists
16:11<_ln>and the inverse 6 means 9
16:11<Terkhen>Ǝ
16:11<@petern>◊ < lozenge
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16:12<Terkhen>it seems to work now
16:13<z-MaTRiX>who knows inverz `z' ?
16:13<@petern>☥-morpork
16:13<frosch123>expˉ
16:14<Terkhen>
16:14<@petern>♀ - female ♂ - male ⚥⚦⚧ - 800m runners ⚨ - iron sulphate
16:14<frosch123>yeah, rtl works :o
16:15<z-MaTRiX>‮iced
16:15<@petern>♕ - Elizabeth
16:15<z-MaTRiX>‮mirror
16:16-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fcd3b.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:20<@petern>𝐖𝐡𝐲 𝐝𝐨𝐞𝐬 𝐭𝐡𝐢𝐬 𝐞𝐱𝐢𝐬𝐭?
16:22<Terkhen>I just see a lot of spaces and a "?"
16:22<_ln>𝓒𝓸𝓸𝓵
16:23<valhallasw>I see a lot of boxes, but that's because I'm missing the right font
16:23<@petern>maybe, they were in the U+1D400 range which technically doesn't exist
16:24<OwenS>I was wondering what it could be... difficult for me to find something thats not LGC, Han or Kana...
16:24<@petern>oh, it does, i misread
16:24<Ammler>Why do does tes
16:24<@petern>why do does tes?
16:25<Ammler>oes
16:25<@petern>are you having a moment?
16:25<OwenS>So whats in that range?
16:26<@petern>1D400 to 1D7FF - Mathematical Alphanumeric Symbols
16:26<@petern>1D400 is "mathematical bold capital A"
16:27<valhallasw>_ln: and 8 inversed is 8. And 8 rotated is infinity!
16:28<OwenS>OK so I need a math font :P
16:28<_ln>valhallasw: 𝖗𝖎𝖌𝖍𝖙
16:29<valhallasw>_ln: even arial unicode doesnt understand that
16:29<valhallasw>:(
16:30<Audigex>says "right"
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16:33<_ln>𝕾𝖔... 𝕴𝖘 𝖙𝖍𝖎𝖘 𝖆 𝖍𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖔𝖗𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖑𝖑𝖞 𝖙𝖆𝖎𝖓𝖙𝖊𝖉 𝖋𝖔𝖓𝖙?
16:37<+glx>indeed arial unicode doesn't know what to show
16:39<_ln>i have DejaVu Sans Mono, i suppose.
16:42<_ln>Was mentioned #elsewhere that those mathematical things do not fit in UTF-16.
16:42<TinoDidriksen>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_typefaces - go find one with more glyphs defined then...Arial Unicode MS is not bad at all.
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16:43<TinoDidriksen>All the math symbols showed fine even in mIRC, but your last line did not.
16:47<Nickman87>hi all
16:48<Nickman87>I'm looking for some info about the current widget system? Could someone point me to a good place to look? :)
16:48<Nickman87>trying to upgrade a patch for the sign list filter
16:51<Nickman87>Tried looking at some example widgets, but can't distinguish the neccesairy parts to create/show/... a widget
16:58<@petern>_ln, they do
17:00<_ln>petern: UCS-2 then?
17:00<@petern>quite
17:00<@petern>but UTF-16 is not UCS-2
17:02<_ln>Nonetheless there's some problem with screen and those characters.
17:02<@petern>apparently so
17:02<OwenS>I personaly prefer testing Unicode conformance with ひらがな :p
17:03<@petern>your test fails, because it works.
17:03<@petern>whereas what _ln and i wrote doesn't
17:03<OwenS>I should probably find some unusual Kanji which are in an astral plane :p
17:04<daChaac>if you want challenge try something arabic or hebrew that has weird writing style... Japanese is easy :)
17:04<OwenS>Theres a cranefly thats been on my cieling all day
17:04<OwenS>Notable because it hasn't moved.
17:04<OwenS>I think it's dead O_o
17:05<@petern>ﻷﻸﻹﻺﻻﻼ
17:06<@petern>𐀁
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17:08<+glx>تنتنمبيتلنبتلنيتبلنبيتلنيتبلني
17:08<+glx>easy :)
17:08<OwenS>Konversation adapted very well to that O_o
17:08<OwenS>And no fair I don't have an Arabic IME installed! :P
17:09<@petern>now try something over U+FFFF
17:09<@petern>IME?
17:09<OwenS>Input Method Editor
17:09<OwenS>AKA How you type languages for which keyboards are infeasible
17:10<OwenS>Then again does Arabic need one or a keyboard layout? :p
17:11<@petern>http://store.aramedia.com/shopimages/products/normal/kbarabicblackleft.jpg
17:12<@petern>for example
17:12<@petern>hmm, IME on kde?
17:13<OwenS>SCIM
17:13<OwenS>So keyboard layout. A Japanese keyboard is normal QWERTY [or DVORAK] with mode selector keys (To switch between Latin/Kanji Composition/Hiragana/Katakana)
17:13<@petern>IME is windows terminology
17:13<@petern>or maybe it's not these days
17:13<OwenS>X11 calls it an "Input Method". IM however is ambiguous :p
17:14<_ln>
17:14<@petern>ẃéĺĺ í júśt śtíćḱ tó ḿý ćóḿṕóśé-ĺíḱé ḱéýś
17:15<OwenS>lol
17:15<_ln>﷽, everyone's favourite ARABIC LIGATURE BISMILLAH AR-RAHMAN AR-RAHEEM
17:15<OwenS>A box? :-P
17:16<_ln>why would they call a box a BISMILLAH AR-RAHMAN AR-RAHEEM?
17:17<OwenS>The :-P was the "i'm joking" part :p
17:20-!-Exl [~myself@cp1224652-a.roemd1.lb.home.nl] has quit []
17:21<_ln>'͜'
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17:23<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:23<_ln>hello mr. owl
17:23<Eddi|zuHause><petern> but UTF-16 is not UCS-2 <- most programs i have seen treat them as equivalent
17:24<Nite_Owl>Hello ln
17:24<@petern>Eddi|zuHause, they're wrong
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17:26<Nite_Owl>planetmaker: I posted an abbreviated (yet updated) NARS v2.0 read me on the forums
17:27<Nite_Owl>if Pikkabird wants to use it is up to him
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>petern: or they can't be arsed to implement the differences
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>(as far as i understand, UTF-16 also has "multi-word" characters, but UCS-2 does not)
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17:32<Eddi|zuHause><_ln> '͜' <-- is it bad when i have to turn my head to read that as a smiley? :p
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17:40<Eddi|zuHause>*mental note* "ibase=16;obase=10;..." does not do what you might want to do
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17:45<@petern>:)
17:46<@petern>it's only doing what you tell it
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17:55<TinoDidriksen>UTF-16 has surrogate pairs, which leads to not every glyph being 2 byte, but it's so rare to hit one. But even in UTF-32 you have combining marks...so you can never say that a glyph is a single code point, in any Unicode format.
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17:57<Eddi|zuHause>you are speaking in riddles
17:59<@petern>well i understood it
17:59<@petern>of course, openttd doesn't (or didn't, when i wrote the utf8 support) support combining marks
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, that i did not mean...
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>i mean that the unicode space does not fit into 16 bit
18:00-!-Audigex [~audigex@92.24.158.228] has joined #openttd
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>but i only have the dangerous kind of half knowledge
18:04<TrueBrain>*burp*
18:04<TrueBrain>excuse me
18:05<TrueBrain>I SEE MONKEYS!
18:06<TinoDidriksen>That with UTF-16 you're mostly dealing in single elements, since so few characters are beyond that plane. The odds of needing surrogate pairs is low and thus easy to optimize around, but still something you have to prepare a worst case for...which you don't have to worry about in UTF-8 or UTF-32.
18:06-!-keoz [~keikoz@pha75-8-82-230-2-115.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:06-!-^Spike^ is now known as ^spike^
18:07<TrueBrain>bah, I hate people who rename every time they come online/offline ..
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>there is a solution for that.
18:07<TinoDidriksen>They forget that IRC has /away
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>do i have to spell it out for you? :p
18:08<TrueBrain>^spike^: I think that goes for you ...
18:08<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yes please
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>it starts with a b
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>and ends with an
18:08<TrueBrain>banana .. but that ends with na
18:08<TrueBrain>being-on-the-van
18:09<TrueBrain>but that is just silly
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>depending on the ircd, there's also a chanmode "forbid people to change nicknames"
18:09<TrueBrain>@mode +m
18:09-!-mode/#openttd [+m] by DorpsGek
18:09-!-mode/#openttd [-m] by DorpsGek
18:09<TrueBrain>too powerful? :p
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>slightly
18:09<TrueBrain>+m and +v people who join :p
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>TinoDidriksen: apparently, ^spike^ did set /away, too
18:10<OwenS>Is everyone saying ^spike^ as often as possible to annoy him? :p
18:10<TinoDidriksen>Yes
18:10<TrueBrain>^spike^: no, we are not
18:10<TrueBrain>oh, sorry, that was for OwenS
18:10<OwenS>Heh :p
18:11<@petern>why would we talk to ^spike^?
18:11<@petern>we have no idea who ^spike^ is
18:11<TrueBrain>who can trace what happened to Leverage S02E06 in 720p?
18:11<@petern>?
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18:12<OwenS>Grr. I was looking for a PCM -> DSD conversion algorithm, not a bunch of audiophools discussing the pros and cons of the two formats
18:13<@petern>haha
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: the first place i'd go asking would be efnet ;)
18:13<OwenS>Thinking though, it's easy... just emulate a PWM engine operating at 2Mhz
18:14<@petern>exactly 2?
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18:14<OwenS>No. 2.822Mhz, so 3 would have been better, meh
18:14<TrueBrain>and it seems that tpb doesn't want to load :(
18:14<OwenS>44.1kHz * 64
18:14<@petern>2.822 would be better ;)
18:14<@petern>*nod*
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: it's not in my RSSFeed, so apparently it didn't make it anywhere public
18:15*OwenS shrugs as to why not 48*64...
18:15<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: well, all my sources turn up dry too .. I wonder what happened
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>so TPB isn't a likely place to find it
18:15<@petern>because CD audio is 44.1...
18:15<OwenS>And DVD audio (And digital audio tape for those interested...) is 48kHz
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>the 44.1kHz value is way older than digital recording
18:17<@petern>is it?
18:17<OwenS>(DAT at 48kHz is handy though because I have some DVDs which had their sound originally mastered on DAT...)
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>well, probably not, as a sampling frequency doesn't make much sense with analogue recording ;)
18:18<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: it is just incredibly high :p
18:18<OwenS>TrueBrain: Just read the synopsis of Leverage. You may be interested in the TV series Hustle, as it has a somewhat similar premise.
18:18<TrueBrain>OwenS: seen it
18:18<OwenS>Heh :p
18:18<OwenS>All of it that exists I assume anyway
18:19<@petern>oh, it's a telly series
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, you find 44.100, 22.050 and 11.025 Hz values all over the place
18:19<TrueBrain>it will be really hard to tell me about a new serie ;) Hehe :) I hav eno life :) Tnx anyway ;)
18:19<@petern>Eddi|zuHause, , not .
18:19<OwenS>TrueBrain: As one who doesn't watch much TV... doubly difficult :p
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: Leverage is not rarely compared with the A-Team
18:20<TrueBrain>OwenS: I don't watch TV :p
18:20<TrueBrain>not rarely
18:20<TrueBrain>lol
18:20<@petern>The 44.1 stuff came from multiplying the number of video scanlines with
18:20<@petern>any integer that meets a reasonable bandwidth/Nyquist above 20kHz.
18:20<@petern>Additionally, it had to fit both PAL and NTSC number of scanlines IIRC
18:20<@petern>(dunno how many they have). Another practical thing was that 44100 can
18:20<@petern>be divided by many numbers without fractional part.
18:20<@petern>i boggle, tbh
18:21<TrueBrain>'many numbers' ..
18:21<OwenS>Without the overscan NTSC and PAL are 480 and 576 lines respectively
18:21<TrueBrain>many being more than 2, than yes
18:21<@petern>such as "why did it have to fit both PAL and NTSC number of scanlines" ...
18:22<OwenS>"This sample rate is adapted from that attained when recording digital audio on PAL videotape with a PCM adaptor, an earlier way of storing digital audio."
18:22<@petern>yikes
18:22<OwenS>Thats cool in a crazy way... recording PCM audio in the video portion of a VHS tape
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that was really inventive... how do you think they got sound on other films?
18:24<@petern>heh 2*2*3*3*5*5*7*7 = 44100
18:24<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: I have a thing for any magnetic medium. I still have an ATAPI Zip drive :p
18:24-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:24<OwenS>petern: That sounds like the inverse of a valve frequency divider equation...
18:24<TrueBrain>what was that company called who sold zip drives
18:24<@petern>iomega
18:24<TrueBrain>I still have that in a box somewhere on my left :p
18:25<@petern>sad
18:25<TrueBrain>WOW! YOU CAN STORE SO MUCH DATA! BACKUP BACKUP BACKUP!
18:25<@petern>i binned a load the other week
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>i also have a 100MB zip drive
18:25<TrueBrain>a few months later there was a cdburner for a price you could laugh at
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>and i actually did something useful with it, once
18:25<OwenS>Theres still something magic about magnetic media...
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>what killed the zip drive was lack of compatibility with 1.44MB disks
18:26<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: That didn't save LS120
18:26<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: what killed it were the poor drivers
18:26<TrueBrain>you could take it with you, but installing it was a bitch!
18:27<OwenS>The ATAPI version trades the "can't take it with you" for "no drivers to install" :p
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>mine is a USB device, so that never was a problem for me...
18:27<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: that was EXACTLY the problem for me :p
18:27<TrueBrain>we had both versions, as we thought it would be useful ...
18:27<@petern>hmm, i've never actually seen a DAT
18:27<OwenS>I'd have it plugged in if I had a spare ATA connector...
18:28<@petern>i suppose they're rare now too
18:28<OwenS>petern: They were mostly used for audio recording for movie production - particularly animation
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>i only know the term "DAT" from Zak McKracken
18:28<OwenS>Today they're pretty much only in use as archives
18:28<OwenS>(I.E. the devices are just arround for extracting the audio from old masters :P )
18:29<@petern>well
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: maybe i bought mine when the drivers were already improved
18:29<@petern>i didn't know sony had a walkman dat machine, for example...
18:29<OwenS>Sony were a heavy promotor
18:29<OwenS>promoter**
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>well, i guess on every successful format there's half a dozen failed ones
18:30<TrueBrain>I have to say: I did expect back then zipdrives to become the next big thing
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>well, they are kinda useless now that usb sticks are around...
18:31<TrueBrain>yup
18:31<TrueBrain>very much indeed
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>only i don't have a USB stick
18:31<TrueBrain>"
18:31<TrueBrain>--is that Grouchy with his fresh troops is so late in arriving. Still,
18:31<TrueBrain>the Prussians are late too, and the British cannot hold the place for
18:31<OwenS>Me neither :P
18:31<TrueBrain>ever. II At three o'clock the fog lifts--the veil that has wrapped so
18:31<@petern>they magically obsoleted everything ever
18:31<TrueBrain>many sounds, such awful and wonderful visions, in a kind of mystery, is
18:31<TrueBrain>lifted now, and it reveals . . . what? Hougoumont invested--Brave Baring
18:31<TrueBrain>"
18:31<TrueBrain>I love spam ....
18:31<TrueBrain>(just received via @openttd.org)
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand a single word of that
18:32<TrueBrain>glad I am not the only one
18:32<TrueBrain>damn, 480p looks UGLY :(
18:32<OwenS>TrueBrain: If you're not using any RBLs, use pbl.spamhaus.net; the IPs on that list are not supposed to be sending mail directly anyway
18:33<@petern>hmm, when was DAT invented? there's a sony model on ebay with wooden side panels... a sure sign of being old ;)
18:33<TrueBrain>OwenS: this email passed all blacklists
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes... leverage is one of the worst of them...
18:33<OwenS>TrueBrain: O...k
18:33<TrueBrain>OwenS: blacklists takes time
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>worse are only "DSR" recordings
18:33<TrueBrain>I wish everyone would install SPF :(
18:33<OwenS>Hashcash would be better :p
18:34<@petern>oh, that is 1987 vintage
18:34<TrueBrain>oeh, the new signup page is coming along just fine :)
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>i (almost) never get spam
18:35<TrueBrain>it is one of the few
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>unfortunately, recently i also did not get some of the real mail
18:35<TrueBrain>99.78% we are currently at :p (spam that is removed)
18:35<TrueBrain>99.995% real mail let-throughs :)
18:36<TrueBrain>I am so proud on my new filter :)
18:36<@petern>OwenS, so anyway, have you written your PCM -> DSD converter yet?
18:36<@petern>(or even DSD-wide)
18:37<OwenS>petern: No; but the algorithm is just an accumulator where the PCM sample is added at the DSD rate and the carry is the DSD output
18:38<OwenS>So one can do an add of the correct bit width then rotate the bit from the carry into a collection register
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18:42<OwenS>Really it's the kind of algorithm you would implement in assembler for the optimization bonus :p
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i know of one person whose mail consistently does not get through
18:44<TrueBrain>that was the old filter :p I switched openttd.org th eother day .. I believe they do come through now :p
18:45<Audigex>anyone online who could run me up a "quick" newgrf?
18:45<TrueBrain>some monkeys?
18:45<Audigex>quick as in, very simple as GRFs go
18:45<Audigex>no monkeys
18:46<R0b0t1>I'd newgrf flying saucers if I had any skills.
18:46<Audigex>i just need to get a single train made into a grf so i can see what it looks like in game
18:47<Audigex>i'm sure there's something not right, but i can't mock it up accurately enough to compare it to other objects
18:47<Audigex>pwetty please?
18:47*TrueBrain is happy to tell you he knows NOTHING about grfs :p
18:48<Audigex>bah
18:48<OwenS>TrueBrain: Even from the C side of things? :p
18:48<TrueBrain>never touched newgrf* files
18:48<TrueBrain>there is a limit to what I want to know :)
18:49<OwenS>And could the EMA (Education Maintaiannce Allowance) people have chosen a more dodgy postal provider? EVERY time they send me a letter it fails to arrive and I have to phone them up and ask for it to be resent!
18:49<z-MaTRiX>ĥęy-ĥo :)
18:49<Audigex>owens - are you starting college now?
18:49<OwenS>Audigex: Second year
18:49<Audigex>truebrain - coding i like, hex i consider sadistic
18:50<Audigex>OwenS: and you haven't realised the full incompetence of the EMA organisation?
18:50<Audigex>they're complete and utter dunces
18:50<OwenS>Audigex: I'm fully aware of it.
18:50<OwenS>I'm also aware that they, a government org, have a non toll free number.
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>Audigex: the forum is full of tools that can do that
18:51<Audigex>eddi, any search hints?
18:51<Audigex>newgrf maker is quite a broad term, for example
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18:51<Eddi|zuHause>could try grfmaker
18:51<OwenS>Audigex: And a freaking long "You can get lots of information online" message whenever you call them. That I'd swear is just a way to keep you on the line for long enough to extract 1p more from you in BT fees
18:52<Audigex>probably
18:52<Audigex>no freephone number/local rate on saynoto0870?
18:52<Audigex>thanks eddi, i'll give it ag o
18:52<Audigex>*a go
18:52<OwenS>It's 0845... but still
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>0815?
18:52*OwenS wonders WTF an 0815 is
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/08/15_(Redewendung)
18:53<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Hehe, german and it's upside down quote marks
18:53<@petern>it's!
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i really struggle on those...
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>(the misplaced apostrophes, i mean)
18:54<OwenS>I personaly think the Japanese have the 「right idea」
18:54<Audigex>fecking hell, i was expecting this to be simple
18:54<Audigex>owens - it has 0845s on too
18:55<Audigex>eddi, anything I can just give it a png of the sprites and it'll make a "generic" train
18:55<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: basically it's a term for "something generic"
18:55<Audigex>all i want is to give it a png, and it produce a train where i can use the front, back and middle carriages
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18:55<OwenS>Audigex: First problke
18:55<Audigex>and put a few middle carriages in between the end cars
18:55<OwenS>flaah misskey
18:56<OwenS>First problem: GRF tools take PCXs...
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>Audigex: you can try the NDL compiler, but it's not very complete...
18:56<OwenS>But NewGRF 101: NewGRF is a turing tarpit
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>as in: you can't do much beyond replacing train graphics
18:57<OwenS>Though I don't know whether I really need to qualify that with "turing"
18:58<@petern>pfft
18:58<@petern>ini files all the way
18:59<Audigex>aah
18:59<Audigex>okay, i've got two blocks set up in grfmaker
18:59<Audigex>but i've no idea what to do with the png?
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19:00<OwenS>Convert it to a PCX of the correct pallette
19:02<Audigex>any form of advice on how to do that? :)
19:02<Audigex>urls help me muchly
19:02<Audigex>again, searching for pcx comes up with nothing useful
19:04<Nite_Owl>do you have a paint/pixel program
19:04<Audigex>nite_owl - I use paint, the sprites are already drawn :)
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19:05<Nite_Owl>can paint convert to pcx
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>screw paint... it can't do pcx... get a real program
19:05<Nite_Owl>download Gimp then
19:05<Audigex>it doesnt have it in "save as" so presumably not
19:05<Audigex>agh, so many programs
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>try paint.net
19:05<Audigex>kk
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>or gimp
19:06<Audigex>i just want to draw the bloody thing, but i'm sure the front is wrong :(
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's important that it can import the palette of openttd
19:06<Nite_Owl>I have a very old version of Paint Shop Pro so I only really know that program well
19:06<Audigex>dling gimp now
19:07<Audigex>i hate this program though
19:07<Tefad>it got better
19:07<Audigex>with it's fecking different windows
19:07<Tefad>different windows?
19:07<Tefad>i thought that's how everyone did GUIs
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>you can get the palette by loading a screenshot, or there are preconfigured gimp palettes in the forum
19:08<Audigex>tefad, most use smaller windows - gimp always annoyed me because they're not within one main window
19:08<Audigex>or at least, werent when i last used it
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>dangit, i guess dexter isn't done today...
19:08<Tefad>oh you're talking about useless MDI stuff
19:08<Nite_Owl>check the OTTD Graphics forum for a recent post from Zeypher for th epallet
19:08<Audigex>essentially
19:08<Audigex>the point being, it's messy on my screen
19:08<Tefad>so use a window manager that supports multiple workspaces
19:08<Tefad>put gimp on one workspace
19:08<Audigex>....
19:08<Audigex>or i could not use window managers :)
19:09<Tefad>then you can't move your windows around.. you win
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19:09<Audigex>im a single-desktop windows 7 user
19:09<OwenS>Then you have a window manager
19:09<Tefad>ohhhhh hahaha that explains it
19:09<Audigex>owens - not how he means it
19:09<OwenS>A crappy one, but still a window manager
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>Audigex: there are workspace-emulating programs for windows as well
19:09<Tefad>yeah, windows default shell/wm is shite
19:10<Audigex>there are, but my hard drive is gunked up enough already
19:10<Audigex>not windows fault, before you start bashing ;)
19:10<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: I thought in 7 MS caught up with 20(?) years of Unix multiple desktops?
19:10<Audigex>i just have a lot of crap
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: i have no idea
19:10<Audigex>and it's a feature i wish windows had
19:10<Audigex>but linux just doesn't do everything i want
19:10<Tefad>i've had a beef with windows since i started getting serious with my computing
19:10<Tefad>anyway,, back to openttd!
19:10<TrueBrain>who?
19:10<TrueBrain>what?
19:11<TrueBrain>where?
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: afair, power tools semi-officially did that under windows-xp
19:11<R0b0t1>why?
19:11<R0b0t1>how?
19:11<TrueBrain>R0b0t1: don't be annoying
19:11<TrueBrain>(hihi)
19:11<Tefad>tip, if you're going to use a unix-based app and doesn't like how it interfaces in your GUI thing, try to find GUI enhancements that make the experience more bearable.
19:11<Audigex>tefad, if i was going to be using it permanently, i would
19:11<Tefad>taekwindow, katmouse, dragking are all fun windows utilities
19:12<Audigex>for the sake of making one GRF, i'll pass
19:12<TrueBrain>your loss
19:12<Tefad>bblean is an ok wm replacement
19:12<Audigex>i do think it's a good idea
19:12<Tefad>there's more, but bleh
19:12<Audigex>but i dont normally need it
19:12<Audigex>and im not installing it just to use one program, once
19:13<OwenS>I find GTK unbearable on Windows machines TBH anyway :p
19:13<Audigex>right, now to find this palate
19:13<Tefad>OwenS: i find qt unbearable on any OS.. ; )
19:14<OwenS>Tefad: Document why and perhaps I can add some features to make it less so for you and push them to Nokia to see if they accept them ;-)
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>i find it funny that i have KDE3 apps in a bright colour scheme and KDE4 apps in a dark colour scheme
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19:14<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: I have the same ATM. Annoying.
19:15<TrueBrain>goodnight all
19:15<OwenS>Night TB
19:15<Tefad>OwenS: the themes are too flashy.
19:15<Audigex>okay, opened a screenshot in GIMP
19:15<Audigex>nn tb
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's cool...
19:15<Audigex>how doo i get the palate off it?
19:15<Audigex>*do
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>i get reminded to which programs still need switching ;)
19:15<Tefad>colormap
19:15<OwenS>Tefad: I don't describe the CDE, Motif and Windows themes as flashy :p
19:16<Tefad>i just want flat colors not bitmaps
19:16<Tefad>does GTK even have 'themes' ?
19:16<OwenS>Yes
19:16<Tefad>more than just color settings?
19:16<OwenS>Or have you been sitting under a rock for a decade?
19:16<Tefad>dunno, i don't use many guis aside from firefox and the gimp
19:17<Audigex>Audigex> how doo i get the palate off it?
19:17<Audigex>[00:15] <Audigex> *do
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>is "sit under rock" equivalent to "use debian stable"?
19:17<Audigex>anyone?
19:17<TinoDidriksen>Yes
19:17<Tefad>i got pissed at firefox when they added gradients to the tabs on windows
19:17<OwenS>Tefad: But if you prefer the GTK theme... Set your Qt theme to "GTK+". Simples.
19:17<OwenS>(And I mean the GTK themse you're using)
19:17<OwenS>Tefad: OK, wtf on that?
19:17<Tefad>if i'm going to do that, i'd rather be using all GTK apps
19:18<Tefad>to load qt to emulate GTK seems like a waste to me
19:18<Tefad>no idea what gtk theme i'm using, aside from the color description i made up a few years back
19:19<OwenS>Qt's Cleanlooks style is a clone of the Gnome standard Clearlooks style; and if you want more minimalist, Windows, CDE and Motif provide that. In that order.
19:21<Audigex>okay, one PCX file created - presumably with the correct palate but probably not
19:22<Audigex>how do i import it? can't find anything related in the menu :(
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19:36<Audigex>fuck it, i'm getting errors off grfmaker and it's not loading up it's toolbars
19:36<Audigex>i'll do without ¬_¬
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>you'd be long done by now if you'd just followed the newgrf tutorial
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19:39<Audigex>i went onto the grfcreator site, followed the user guide until it went wrong, couldn't find anything about the error in it, the grfcreator wiki page or the thread
19:48<Audigex>grfwizard wants ttdpatch?
19:48<Audigex>why isn't there a simple way to do this?
19:49<Audigex>open a png file with the correct colours, enter a handful of stats and it makes a basic train
19:49<Audigex>why all these complex programs which are so concerned with action0 etc
19:49<Audigex>gah
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>action0 is really the most simple of all...
19:51<Audigex>the point being, there's no "quickfire" way for artists to bung out a quick sprite to test it visually
19:52<Audigex>i've tried grfwizard, grfmaker and wingrf
19:52<Audigex>and none are in the least bit intuitive
19:52<Audigex>grfwizard seemed okay, but i dont have TTDP installed
19:52<Audigex>and it wont let me continue without it
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20:14<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably true, but it is a nontrivial balance act to create a program that is both simple enough for newbies and complex enough for newbies to turn into experts
20:24<Audigex>i can understand the need for power
20:24-!-ecke_ [~ecke@213.195.202.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:24<Audigex>but surely one tool could accommodate the simple aspects
20:24<Audigex>literally all it has to do is allow me to use 3 vehicles
20:24<Audigex>a front, a back and "n" middle cars
20:25<Audigex>i dont care about speed or power
20:25<Audigex>just give them a default of high horsepower and medium speed
20:25<Audigex>so i can see the things
20:25<Audigex>im sure it'd be popular enough
20:25<Audigex>a simple grf maker for artists
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>seriously, the general consensus between people who could develop such an application is, that it's better to focus on the complexity of the program than easing on the learning curve
20:26<Audigex>that's always the general consensus between developers :)
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>the learning curve for NFO might be relatively steep, but the benefits once you master that are rather high
20:26<Audigex>i've done it myself in the limited capacity of programming i've had so far
20:26<Audigex>i think the point is that i've no intention of learning NFO/grf creation
20:27<Audigex>i'm not the coder, i'm the artists
20:27<Audigex>*artist
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>the point is if you show no intention of learning something, nobody is willing to teach it to you
20:27<Audigex>complex features are completely un-necesssary for me
20:27<Audigex>i know why they do it, people make applications for their own needs, and hope that it's useful for others
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20:28<Eddi|zuHause>and really, the NFO tutorial doesn't take that long, and it teaches everything you need to see your train in the game
20:28<Audigex>i'm not meaning this in an "these people should make it how i want!" way
20:28<Audigex>where's this NFO tutorial?
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>on wiki.ttdpatch.net
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20:28<Eddi|zuHause>under new graphics specs
20:29<Audigex>aha
20:29<Audigex>couldn't find it in the forum
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>once you have these few lines of NFO, you can draw everything you need
20:29<Audigex>...
20:29<Audigex>it talks about grfwizard
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>not really
20:30<Audigex>"The GRFCodec and the GRFWizard"
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you only need grfcodec
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20:36<Audigex>"Run time error 52, file not found"
20:37<Audigex>doesn't tell me which file, of course - that'd be too easy
20:40<Audigex>why do I end up downloading ttdp, ttd, some graphics for ttdp, the original game graphics, grfwizard, grfcodec, GIMP and probably a few more by the time is done, for what should be a simple task
20:40<Audigex>gah
20:40<Audigex>sorry, i'm aiming this at you
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20:40<Audigex>i'm just frustrated that it's taking so long, when basically i want to look at a sprite in game for about 20 seconds
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20:43<Audigex>and still, file not found
20:43<Audigex>screw it
20:43<Audigex>i've been at this for 2 hours
20:44<Audigex>and i've had at least 10 different failures in that time
20:44<Audigex>after following the instructions as well as i can
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20:49<Eddi|zuHause>Audigex: there's a more hacky way to this
20:49<Audigex>i'd probably prefer that tbh
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>grfcodec -d <original ttd grf>
20:49<Audigex>other peoples programs frustrate me
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>then copy paste your train over the resulting pcx file
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>and run grfcodec -e <same grf>
20:50<Audigex>sounds like a better idea
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>the game will complain about your grf file being corrupt
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>but it should work
20:50<Audigex>will i need to have had the sprite sheet laid out in a certain way?
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>be sure to make backups of your original grf ;)
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20:50<Audigex>it has the blue box, but it's not a set number of pixels from the edge etc
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>Audigex: the .nfo file has the coordinates within the pcx
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>you can edit that one, too, to point to your new pcx file
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>just look up a sprite number of a train you want to replace
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't even require hex-skills, because the sprite coordinates are given in decimal ;)
20:53<Audigex>cannot read sprites/trg1r.nfo no such file or directory
20:53<Audigex>oh piss, wrong parameter
20:54<Audigex>will it matter if i over-write a base grf?
20:54<Audigex>ie can i just rename the output?
20:54<Audigex>or should i do it with something less required?
20:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you name the file differently, you need to make a new .obg file
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. copy the original_[win|dos|dos_de].obg file and change the filename within it
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to do it properly, also calculate the md5sum ;)
20:57<Audigex>i'll just overwrite the canada set :p
20:57<Audigex>and i dont think windows can natively calculate md5 can it?
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>well, openttd can ;)
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>i just don't know if it outputs them
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>Audigex: if you recoded a base grf, you cannot load it via the newgrf dialog
20:58<Audigex>kkoi
20:58<Audigex>well i didnt
20:59<Audigex>but it's now telling me it can't output truecolour pcx files
20:59<Audigex>so obviously i didnt get the palate right
20:59<Audigex>i'm just going to leave it
20:59<Audigex>2 hours of arsing about is plenty
21:00<Audigex>i doubt i'll actually be holding the BRset up anyway... it's already about 6 years old
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21:00<Audigex>it's just a shame there isnt such a very basic app to create generic grf's
21:01<Audigex>i'm sure once i worked out how to do it, it'd be easy enough to replicate
21:01<Audigex>but it's a lot of hassle for something that may not work, and i'll use for about 10 seconds
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 21 00:00:18 2009