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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-09-12

---Logopened Sat Sep 12 00:00:44 2009
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05:24<Terkhen>good morning
05:24<Xaroth>o/
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06:22<fonsinchen>I want to save/load nested containers, for example a std::map<StationID, std::list<CargoPacket *> >.
06:22<Zuu>Up untill about a month ago I hadn't been drinking coffe more than 2-3 times in more than one year. I had copletely stoped drinking it. But now I started again and I drink more a day than I did before. I'm already on my third cup today. :-D
06:22<fonsinchen>Am I the first one with that problem, or has anyone else ever thought about that?
06:25<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17507 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Make some methods of the OrdersWindow non-static.
06:25<@Rubidium>you're the first
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06:37<fonsinchen>In fact I have a solution, which is procedurally loading/saving the stuff in some deterministic order. But that's not so well readable. It would be nicer to have some way of representing that in the SaveLoad struct, like SLE_LST ... not quite trivial, though.
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06:53<Sacro>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag-_SOihwwg
07:20*Zuu wished he had a pen with ink that drys more quickly
07:21<Alberth>use a pencil instead
07:23<Zuu>Doesn't show up as good in a scanner. But hopefully I will be done early enough so that I can hand it in on monday before the door to the post boxes locks. :-)
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08:35<Shhup>Hey
08:35<Shhup>Can anyone help me?
08:36<Shhup>Please?
08:36<frosch123>better call the police directly
08:37<Shhup>A friend of mine can't connect to my server on Internet
08:37<Shhup>It's says "1 Client in front of us"
08:37<@Rubidium>so someone else is trying to join your server at the moment
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08:37<+glx>with a slow download speed
08:37<frosch123>you were fast enough :)
08:38<@petern>okay, what's the intel core i5 stuff?
08:38<+glx>new cpu
08:38<@petern>and why does the core i7 come in two different sockets?
08:39*petern ponders phenom instead
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08:41<@Rubidium>ooh... Intel restarted their processor numbering again?
08:41<@Rubidium>time to start selling those i386 procs :)
08:42<@petern>i guess that i5 is like the celeron version
08:42<@petern>but
08:42<@petern>then they introduce another new socket tyep
08:42<KenjiE20>i5 is our current C2x series afaik
08:42<@petern>AND make a cut down i7 that goes in that socket
08:42<@petern>?
08:42<@petern>core 2 is not core i5
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08:43<frosch123>i5 sounds like 90mhz pentium
08:43<KenjiE20>http://www.scan.co.uk/TekSpek/index.aspx?ArticleId=108 <- that has a chart
08:43<KenjiE20>sorry yes, i3 is current C2
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08:47<frosch123>so it's basically dual-channel vs tri-channel memory
08:47<frosch123>isn't it?
08:47<+glx><@petern> and why does the core i7 come in two different sockets? <-- worse 3 sockets
08:48<@petern>glx, i can safely ignore mobile variants
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08:53<@petern>"If anything, the QPI on Bloomfield is a performance hindrance for a single socket platform and is totally unnecessary. It's just one more interconnect between the CPU and the video cards that isn't present on the Lynnfield cpu with it's PCIe integrated on die."
08:53<@petern>argh
08:53<@petern>technology technology
08:54<@petern>maybe a C2D E8400 is still good enough
08:55<Aali>the E8400 is good enough if you overclock it :)
08:56<Aali>which is trivial
08:57<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17508 /trunk/src/ (base_station_base.h station.cpp station_base.h): -Fix [FS#3195] (r16859): join station window didn't get updated when stations were removed from the pool
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09:28<frosch123>ctibor: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3197 <- does that match your scenario?
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10:37<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17509 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp:
10:37<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#3196]: if building a part fails during cloning, sell what was already cloned instead of leaving it 'for free'
10:37<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Fix: make cloning multiheaded trains possible with with 'max - 1' vehicles existing
10:40<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r17510 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix [FS#3197]: When loading GRFConfigs from ini file, validate them wrt. duplicate GRF IDs.
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10:59<Zuu>An interesting thing of traffic theory is to calculate the speed of zero cars. :-)
11:00<Zuu>Which may happen to be eg. 70 km/h
11:01<frosch123>it will be difficult to prove you wrong
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11:02*Rubidium proposes it to be `c'
11:04<Zuu>The speed of zero cars is usually described as the free flow speed and is basically the speed you drive if you are alone on the road.
11:04<@Rubidium>oh, then it's like 20 km/h :)
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11:13<frosch123>wouldn't that be the speed of one car?
11:15<@Rubidium>that's how fast I'd drive when there're no cars on the road
11:16<Zuu>Well no, because to calculate the free flow speed you set the density to zero. (Density has the unit [vehicles/length unit])
11:16<frosch123>Rubidium: but hovercrafts are faster
11:16<Zuu>So to be really correct you would have to say zero cars per kilometer for example.
11:17<@Rubidium>(and 1 bicycle)
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13:17<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r17511 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Simplify ShowNewGRFInfo() by passing 'right' instead of 'width'.
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13:32<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17512 /trunk/src/crashlog.cpp: -Add: some basic information about the loaded AIs in the crash log
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r17513 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 39 changes by EraserKing
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: dutch - 18 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: greek - 55 changes by fumantsu
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: indonesian - 60 changes by prof
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14:01<kamikaz333>hi
14:02<kamikaz333>Is it possible to run openttd on windows 7 ?
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14:06<@Rubidium>not within such short time :)
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14:14<Alberth>maybe he realized it is more efficient to simply try it :)
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14:22<Jonis>Hi
14:23<@Rubidium>evening
14:23<Zuu>Hi Jonis
14:24<Jonis>I have a question, does anyone have a good 64x64 map?
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14:24<frosch123>define "good"
14:25<Jonis>The terrain should be hard and not to many cities or industries.
14:25<Doorslammer>It's 64x64
14:26<Doorslammer>You aren't going to have much of either anyhow
14:26<@Rubidium>1 town, 0 industries?
14:26<@Rubidium>can't be many
14:27<frosch123>Jonis: so open the new game window, turn of the shore on all sides, set the terrain to mountainious, set the number of towns to 2, and similiar for the industries
14:27<Zuu>I played a nice 64x124 multiplayer game once.
14:27<Zuu>We were 4-5 players on that map.
14:27<Jonis>How do i turn of the shore?
14:28<Zuu>Jonis: Which version do you run? We asume you run at least 0.7.x
14:28<frosch123>at the bottom are four buttons
14:29<Jonis>I run 0.6.3 but I will just install the latest version.
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14:30<Zuu>http://finger.openttd.org will keep you informed when a new release appears. Or if you don't want to visit that page (which is not really human-friendly) use a program that does that for you and tell you when it is time to upgrade.
14:30<Zuu>http://wiki.openttd.org/OpenTTD_Updaters
14:30<Jonis>Nice, now I know how to turn off the shores
14:30<frosch123>Zuu: there is also a RSS feed
14:31<Zuu>frosch123: Didn't knew there was an RSS for just releases.
14:31<frosch123>i guess it is for all news on the front page
14:31<frosch123>but i do not use it :)
14:31<Jonis>I'm going to add the RSS feed to my mobilephone :D
14:31<Zuu>Still not to much spam there. (on the news page)
14:32<Zuu> /spam/unrelated news/
14:32<frosch123>well, usually 4 in two months
14:33<frosch123>except in winter :p
14:33<Zuu>Yea, for stable releases which doesn't happen that often, a update tool is a bit of an overkill if you don't already have it for nightlies and all other stuff.
14:40<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r17514 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Nestify Add-NewGRF dialog.
14:46<jonty-comp>hmm
14:46<jonty-comp>the multiplayer cheating page on the wiki encourages cheating
14:46<jonty-comp>http://wiki.openttd.org/Multiplayer_cheating#When_All_Land_Is_Flattened
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14:48<Jonis>In what way?
14:48<jonty-comp>"See if there is an old, deserted company around, and use the share dealing exploit (above) to generate mass funds. Use these to perform land reconstruction."
14:48<jonty-comp>although, I suppose the other person is already cheating
14:48<jonty-comp>but still
14:49<Jonis>haha
14:50<Terkhen>:D
14:52<Jonis>Even when I have but in the number of cities I still only get on large city with like 2000 in population
14:53<@Rubidium>jonty-comp: luckily the sharing trick doesn't work on like 99% of the servers
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14:54<jonty-comp>Rubidium: not anymore, at least
14:54-!-ecke [~ecke@188.75.128.2] has joined #openttd
14:55<@Rubidium>but the document illustrates *why* an active admin is needed
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14:58<Jonis>How close to the edge can I build a city?
15:00<Zuu>Jonis: Perhaps try it out in the scenario editor?
15:02<Jonis>Just did that :D
15:02<Jonis>Discovered a funny thing, I couldnt start build the city to close to the edge but once I had placed it I could expand it to the last tile on the map.
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15:25<Zuu>That is probably because the location of a town is the tile with the town name sign on it.
15:26<Zuu>That is always concidered the center of the town, regardless of where the houses and roads are.
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15:41<fonsinchen>In all known implementations of the standard C++ library multimaps have a deterministic ordering among entries with equal keys. Unfortunately this is not required by the standard. However, it will be required by C++0x. I think I'll just continue relying on that behaviour for cargodist's optimization of cargo loading. The question remains how to load/save (multi)maps in general. My current implementation is an ugly hack ...
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15:48<Alberth>a desync in the making...
15:51<fonsinchen>I don't think they'll create any more standard C++ libraries before C++0x
15:51<R0b0t1>C++0x?
15:51<R0b0t1>Oh yeah
15:51<R0b0t1>Anything new on that yet?
15:51<fonsinchen>and all current multimaps are based on red-black trees which have that properties.
15:52<Noldo>R0b0t1: well it will be C++1x
15:52<@Rubidium>well, when will all compilers that we allow OpenTTD to be compiled with follow C++0x?
15:52<fonsinchen>that's not the problem
15:52<@Rubidium>Noldo: nah, it'll probably becomes C++0F or so
15:52<@Rubidium>or... even worse
15:52<@Rubidium>@base 36 10 x
15:52<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 33
15:52<fonsinchen>in fact all known implementations behave just the way I need them to. It's just not in the standard.
15:53<fonsinchen>(yet)
15:53<@Rubidium>it comes in 2033 ;)
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15:53<@Rubidium>still "known" is quite fuzzy
15:54<fonsinchen>some people proposing that for C++0x examined that.
15:55<fonsinchen>http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/lwg-defects.html#371
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16:01<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: what in that says that all known implementations behave like the proposal?
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16:03<fonsinchen>well, yes you are right. He only says "seems". But then there is this survey http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2005/n1780.html
16:04<Jonis>What are you discussing?
16:05<fonsinchen>Stability of equal ranges in multimaps across different implementations of the C++ standard library
16:05<@Rubidium>"A brief survey of current library implementations reveals differing behavior" (n1780.html)
16:05<Jonis>Ok
16:06<Jonis>I don't understand too much of it. :P
16:09<@Rubidium>Jonis: don't worry, you're in the majority 'group'
16:10<fonsinchen>That's only with the hint though. The later survey of insertion without hint shows they all behave the same.
16:11<fonsinchen>And I don't have to use hints.
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16:14<Jonis>Good, then I can go to sleep tonight knowing that I'm not totally stupid
16:16*Rubidium wonders what STL implementation MSVC uses
16:16<@Rubidium>it at least isn't STLport or gcc
16:20<@Rubidium>neither Dinkumware
16:22<fonsinchen>I'll compile and test this example with MSVC now. Place your bets, please.
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16:22<fonsinchen>shit, no licence
16:22<fonsinchen>:(
16:22<@Rubidium>well, it's more about the: "all known implementations" when MSVC's implementation has been left out
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16:23<@Rubidium>whether it works in MSVC or not, "all known implementations" has been proven to be not the truth
16:24<fonsinchen>Maybe I should roll my own multimap.
16:25<@Rubidium>well, I don't know what's best
16:25<fonsinchen>I could make that a map<StationID, list<CargoPacket *> >
16:26<fonsinchen>but that would immensely complicate the code. I don't think it's worth it.
16:28<@Rubidium>maps can't be directly stored either, so for savegame purposes it doesn't matter
16:31<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17515 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.cpp: -Fix [FS#3189]: [Squirrel] In some cases the call stack would not be cleaned up properly during crash handling. Occasionally this causes asserts to be triggered or crashes.
16:33<Jonis>If I have one station near the sea and one up on the mountain but it's just a straight line between them. When should I start the slope? As early as possible or as late as possible?
16:35<frosch123>try to make it smooth, don't terraform much, build tunnels and bridges instead :)
16:35<frosch123>better build less straight than taking 3 slopes at once
16:37<Jonis>But its a big height different, need slopes. But don't know if I'm going to build it late so the train can accalerate before it or take it at the start.
16:41<Zuu>Jonis: Make a test build two tracks side by side where you have the slop early on one and the other have the slope later. That is the wonder of having a simulation environment.
16:42<Jonis>True true
16:44<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17516 /branches/0.7/ (6 files in 4 dirs):
16:44<CIA-4>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
16:44<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: Road vehicles could get lost when the prelimiary destination (for the pathfinder heuristics) is unreachable [FS#3188] (r17491)
16:44<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: Silence compile warning that is only triggered when you are using a broken iconv (r17479)
16:44<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: In some cases compilation failed because the search path for ICU was not added to the ldflags (r17476, r17474)
16:44<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Document: Compiler warning when compiled without asserts in GCC 4.4+ is not our fault but a GCC bug. Includes a reference to the appropriate GCC bug report (r17461)
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16:59<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17517 /branches/0.7/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs):
16:59<CIA-4>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
16:59<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: [Squirrel] In some cases the call stack would not be cleaned up properly during crash handling. Occasionally this causes asserts to be triggered or crashes [FS#3189] (r17515)
16:59<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: When loading GRFConfigs from ini file, validate them wrt. duplicate GRF IDs [FS#3197] (r17510)
16:59<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: When building a part fails during cloning, sell what was already cloned instead of leaving it "for free". Also make cloning multiheaded trains possible with with "max - 1" vehicles existing [FS#3196] (r17509)
16:59<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: The wrong value was restored to SetAllowDoCommand possible resulting in an AI that was not allowed to do any actions (r17500)
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18:34<Nite_Owl>Hello all
18:36<frosch123>night all
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18:53<Nite_Owl>it appears that Skynet has become self aware of tux_mark_5
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21:01<Audigex>haihai
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21:10<Audigex>anyone here?
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 13 00:00:52 2009