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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-09-19

---Logopened Sat Sep 19 00:00:49 2009
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01:40<Lordnokon>hi guys
01:40<Lordnokon>any pro's of ttdx around here
01:42<Lordnokon>as there no way to speed the game up when running more then 1000 units??
01:42<Lordnokon>currently im running a quad core chip with 8gb run on 64bit vista... and the game slow down badly
01:43<Lordnokon>anyone??
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01:50<Lordnokon>??
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01:59<Lordnokon>is everyone sleeping or what??
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02:13<Lordnokon>is there anyone here
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02:15<R0b0t1>Not really
02:16<R0b0t1>You picked kind of a bad time.
02:16<R0b0t1>Most people seem to go by -6ish GMT
02:16<Lordnokon>ah ok, thought it was just me... lol
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02:31<Lordnokon>guys i really need some help on questions that i have
02:33<Alberth>you'll have to ask a question first before we can give you an answer
02:36<Lordnokon>im running a quad core chip with 8GB memory with vista 64bit
02:37<Lordnokon>before I even hit 1000 units of vechiles the game slow down.
02:37<Alberth>OpenTTD uses 1 core only
02:37<Lordnokon>i have setup the custom speed to 99999999
02:37<Lordnokon>surely the game should not slow down.
02:38<Alberth>yes it should.
02:38<Lordnokon>why??
02:38<Alberth>you have an too optimistic view of the amount of calculations done.
02:39<Alberth>did you try a search on this topic at the forums? there are several discussions there that explain it in more detail than I can.
02:39<Lordnokon>i did, must of missed them
02:41<Lordnokon>can you point me to the right section??
02:44<Alberth>hmm, not easily findable indeed.
02:45<@Rubidium>try multi core
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02:46<Alberth>common causes are the AI's that you use, and animation / full screen, together with 2k x 2k maps.
02:46<@Rubidium>bad networking too
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02:48<Alberth>but indeed, if you want to understand why, finding discussions about ways to speed is a good start, like multi core, speed up, and threads
02:49<Lordnokon>ok you guys lost me...
02:49<Lordnokon>looks like this game gets more complicated than i thought...
02:50<planetmaker>good morning
02:51<Alberth>it is mainly a matter of scale. doubling the map-size means 4 times as many tiles, thus 4 times more work.
02:51<planetmaker>[08:40] <Lordnokon> [08:37:57] surely the game should not slow down. <-- you got search terms what to look for in order to find (extensive) answers
02:52<@Rubidium>Alberth: and generally more than 4 times more (CPU) cache trashes
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02:53<Alberth>also, each new train needs to have its route calculated constantly.
02:53<planetmaker>hehe... possibility for huge map types: the strong union or lazy worker switch: people only work where the current viewport is centred ;-)
02:53<planetmaker>thus number of calculations necessary decreases, too :-P
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02:54<Alberth>yeah, all trains outside the viewport stop, and do not get any income. That would be a nice challenge then :p
02:54<planetmaker>exactly ;-)
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02:56<Alberth>haha, we can then remove the signals, and have the user control which train can progress by viewing at it!
02:56<planetmaker>:-D
02:57<planetmaker>that's then the "dummy drivers switch" ;-)
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02:58<Alberth>Lordnokon: so in short, the amount of calculations explode with a growing number of trains. At some point you hit the upper boundary of the CPU, and then the game slows down.
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03:01<Lordnokon>:( dammit
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03:02<Lordnokon>i like playing the huge maps with loads of industries, and lots of units...
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03:05<Alberth>Assuming you currently play 2000x2000, you can try 2000x1000 instead. It reduces the number of tiles by 1/2, leaving more CPU time for the trains.
03:06<Alberth>I don't know if that helps, but it seems like worth a try.
03:07<Lordnokon>im going to try and disable all AI's and exstra's
03:08<Alberth>that helps too, AI's tend to eat lots of CPUs.
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03:13<planetmaker>Lordnokon: also it helps to disable full animation and full details
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03:35<Terkhen>good morning
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03:40<planetmaker>hm... what is the exact command line argument if I want to link against another SDK than my default one?
03:40<planetmaker>it's probably --with-osx-sysroot=...
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05:51<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17570 /trunk/src/ (59 files in 9 dirs): -Fix: a number of Doxygen warnings about missing parameters, which were sometimes missing and sometimes just typos
06:05<@petern>hmm, zero downloads from my binaries mirror
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06:07<@petern>guess that bit was never set up :s
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06:10<Alberth>switching bits of the download counter would have caused an inbalance of the bits at your HD, which would have caused a crash. Luckily, your system detected that, and prevented those changes.
06:12<@Rubidium>yeah, someone hurdled into yet another project before completely finishing the previous
06:15<planetmaker>I'm still looking forward to the rail and road types :-)
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06:19<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17571 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3213] (r17569): town view didn't show the right town in most of the cases
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06:23<CraKinShOt>Morning. :)
06:24<@Rubidium>morning? It's after noon
06:27<CraKinShOt>Is the hashmap the favored method for key->value lookups?
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06:29<Alberth>using the key as an index is usually the fastest solution.
06:30<Alberth>Don't know where you want to do the lookup, but near the map, I doubt you have the time to do a hash value calculation.
06:32<CraKinShOt>well I'm trying to think ahead on what the best solution would be
06:33<CraKinShOt>I have a tileId and a seperate struct with additional information. Only a few tiles would have the extra information.
06:34<CraKinShOt>so a flag in the tile to say the extra information is present. If so, the extra information is looked-up
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06:35<Alberth>I am pretty much clueless about feasibility of changes in that area, unfortunately
06:36<Alberth>it sounds as a sane idea, so for a proof of concept it may be good enough for now.
06:37<CraKinShOt>probably, I'm just not sure on what the worst case O() is for hashmaps
06:37<CraKinShOt>or at least the one in this code
06:38<CraKinShOt>but I guess I can abstract it so it can be changed later
06:38<@Rubidium>worst case is O(n)
06:40<CraKinShOt>so linear then. hmm.
06:40<CraKinShOt>maybe this is an interesting problem in general. Adding additional information to tiles, but sparsely.
06:41<Alberth>add a number with enough bits, use it as an index in another strcututre
06:41<Alberth>s/tre/re/
06:41<@petern>heh
06:42<planetmaker>lighter on the map array might be even to just have a bit, and then check a list for the tile number.
06:42<CraKinShOt>thats what I was heading toward
06:42<@petern>surely you just add a few ints to the map array ;)
06:42<Alberth>if we keep it sorted, it is O(log N)
06:43<Alberth>petern: yeah, a long long would be good no? :p
06:43<Alberth>(unfortunately, it is not)
06:43<@Rubidium>it all depends what the data *not* on the map is used for; it it's important for signal states then putting it off-map might not be a wise decision, if it's only updated occasionally and drawn then off-map with some sort of hash might be feasible
06:44<CraKinShOt>well, while true its used for the signals in my case, I guess it could be used for all sorts
06:45<CraKinShOt>the simple solution is just an unsigned int in the map tile
06:45<CraKinShOt>quick and fast
06:45<Alberth>until you want to save that data to disk
06:45<CraKinShOt>exactly, was pointed out last night
06:46<CraKinShOt>I'll have a gander at sparse-matrix see what the worst case is on that.
06:46*Rubidium (again) points to TTDP's system
06:49<Alberth>CraKinShOt: you have to stop thinking in general solutions here, each value in the map is uniquely balanced. That's what makes it so fast, but also so difficult to change.
06:51<Alberth>eg OO dictates that every tile-kind should be a derived class, and we should use virtual methods for accessing. That would however bring down the whole game.
06:55<Eddi|zuHause><CraKinShOt> probably, I'm just not sure on what the worst case O() is for hashmaps <- the sense of hashmaps is, that the worst case hardly ever occurs, the average case is what matters
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>insane idea: unify stations (waypoints) and signals
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>then you could reuse the station-deceleration code for stopping at signals
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>CraKinShOt: have you had a look at michi_cc's signal patch yet?
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07:04<CraKinShOt>advance signals?
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>yes, those
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/
07:07<CraKinShOt>yeah, I thought he just added another bit?
07:07<CraKinShOt>to the tile
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07:18<CraKinShOt>looks like he just used the last bit in the tile (m2?)
07:18<CraKinShOt>the signals I think have 3 bits, and a few cases can be added there
07:19<CraKinShOt>I think 0x7 was the last free case (at least in the current trunk)
07:21<CraKinShOt>I need at least 8-bits I think
07:23<CraKinShOt> @Rubidium (again) points to TTDP's system <- I had a look (twice) for something to do with the landscaping, but I can't read assembler easily. Feels like a needle in a haystack and I'm blind.
07:28<@Rubidium>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=RoutingRestrictions%3AAlpha <- tells (a little bit) about TTDP's way of storing signal information
07:31<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17572 /trunk/src/ (26 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: Use the Window::GetWidget() function to access nested widgets through the nested_array.
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07:39<CraKinShOt>hmm well the code on the restrictions is just as obscure to me.
07:39<CraKinShOt>the limitations in the documentation are a hint though
07:40<CraKinShOt>the 256 per 64*64, could be a speed up mechanism.
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07:41<CraKinShOt>i.e. you make a seperate array that is [mapWidth/64, mapHeight/64]
07:42<CraKinShOt>then a list (variable size) in each for the tiles with extra information for specific tiles
07:43<CraKinShOt>would make getting to the extra tile information a lot faster, for very large maps
07:43<CraKinShOt>those programmable signals look interesting. :D
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07:55<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17573 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: NWID_SELECTION containers have a selected widget-plane, and optionally an index in the nested_array.
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08:53<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17574 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix (r17573): Insert NWID_SELECTION in nested_array when appropriate.
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09:08<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17575 /trunk/src/ (widget.cpp widget_type.h widgets/dropdown.cpp): -Codechange: Adding a new combined button+dropdown widget.
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09:55<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17576 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3208]: assertion triggered when the second vehicle in a 101+ (or 11+ if mammoth trains is disabled) vehicle free wagon chain is an engine and the first vehicle is moved to another chain
09:57<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17577 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Order window uses pure nested widgets.
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10:29<planetmaker>in r17577: ottd/trunk/src/ai/../window_gui.h:402: error: default template arguments may not be used in function templates
10:29<planetmaker>^ Alberth, I guess that's your resort
10:29<planetmaker>compiling with gcc 4.2
10:29<planetmaker>r17577
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10:33<Hirundo>MSVC is also complaining: ...\window_gui.h(402) : error C4519: default template arguments are only allowed on a class template
10:33<planetmaker>hey :-)
10:33<planetmaker>moin Hirundo
10:34<@Rubidium>planetmaker: are you sure it's gcc 4.2 and not llvm?
10:34<planetmaker>not entirely
10:34<@Rubidium>i.e. are you using Apple's stock compiler? Or one compiled yourself from GCC's pristine sources
10:35<planetmaker>I'm using my default compiler
10:35<@Rubidium>so LLVM
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10:35<Alberth>:(
10:35<Hirundo>btw good afternoon pm :)
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10:37<planetmaker>Rubidium: sure?
10:37<planetmaker>checking build cc... gcc
10:37<planetmaker>checking host cc... gcc
10:37<planetmaker>checking build c++... g++
10:37<planetmaker>checking host c++... g++
10:37<@Rubidium>gcc -version?
10:38<@Rubidium>--version actually
10:38<Alberth>planetmaker: g++ (GCC) 4.4.1 20090725 (Red Hat 4.4.1-2) does not complain
10:38<planetmaker>i686-apple-darwin10-gcc-4.2.1 (GCC) 4.2.1 (Apple Inc. build 5646)
10:39<@Rubidium>maybe it's C++0x
10:41<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17578 /trunk/src/ (order_gui.cpp window_gui.h): -Fix (r17572): Some compilers don't like default function template arguments.
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10:43<Alberth>that should fix the warnings.
10:44<planetmaker>it does :-)
10:45<CraKinShOt>well after a bit of thinking I'll go with the spares tile (additional) information way.
10:45<Hirundo>MSVC is happy again, too
10:45<CraKinShOt>For the immediate aspects and feathers, I could just use unused bits
10:46<CraKinShOt>but longer term, and for things like programmable signals, make more sense to do it this way
10:46<Hirundo>FWIW: MSVC complains about signed/unsigned mismatch in newgrf_gui.cpp:304
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10:48<CraKinShOt>in landscape_grid.html it says that m2 is used for indexing objects in object arrays
10:49<CraKinShOt>but for rails with signals, m2 is directly used with states
10:50<@Rubidium>CraKinShOt: it's only for the general case; it's not always the case
10:50<CraKinShOt>Yes, I gather as much from the documentation
10:51<CraKinShOt>going from the documentation, with class 0ground, m2 is an index?
10:52<Alberth>Hirundo: weird, line "int max_index = min(min_index + this->vscroll.GetCapacity(), this->grfs.Length());" you mean? that got changed last monday, quite a while ago
10:53<Hirundo>yes, that line
10:53<CraKinShOt>I just wonder whether to seperate out the signal states from m2. Have m2 be an index to a table and then add on all the extra stuff in that table.
10:53<@Rubidium>CraKinShOt: uhm... it doesn't say that; it actually says the exact opposite
10:53<Hirundo>I'm running MSVC 2008 at standard settings
10:54<CraKinShOt>lol yeah, sorry... bad example
10:54<CraKinShOt>presume depo's and stations then are indices
10:55<CraKinShOt>but I imagine with a large game, you'll easily hit 16K "rail with signals".
10:56<CraKinShOt>hmm could make it 24 bit and add on m7
10:57<CraKinShOt>at least with a direct index it would be nice and fast
10:58<@Rubidium>except that you need to dereference
10:59<CraKinShOt>true, but at least it would be faster than having a TileId to Array mapping
10:59<Alberth>Hirundo: could you try casting the second argument to int, as in "int max_index = min(min_index + this->vscroll.GetCapacity(), (int)this->grfs.Length());" and check whether that fixes the warning?
11:00<Hirundo>I will test in 10 mins or so
11:00<Alberth>hmm, maybe changing the min() to min<int>() would be better.
11:01<Alberth>ok, will make dinner first, so no hurry
11:03<Alberth>hmm, all variables seem to be >= 0, so making it all unsigned would be a solution too, perhaps
11:04<Alberth>why do issues always get more complicated if you investigate more closely? :p
11:14<Hirundo>min() -> min<int>(), this->grfs.Length() -> (int)this->grfs.Length() and making min_index, max_index and i into uints all work
11:14<Hirundo>to me, making them unsigned seems the best thing to do
11:17<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17579 /trunk/src/ (18 files in 4 dirs): -Fix: remove doxygen docs for removed parameters, or change @param to @tparam if necessary
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12:23<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17580 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix (r17541): Fix signed/unsigned mismatch with MSVC 2008.
12:23<Alberth>Hirundo: i agree :)
12:23<Alberth>thanks for the report and the testing.
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12:31<Hirundo>Alberth: Is using WWT_EMPTY widgets (still) the best way to order text into columns, or is there a better alternative?
12:33<Alberth>WWT_TEXT and WWT_LABEL can display a single line text (in fact they are designed to do that)
12:33<Alberth>WWT_EMPTY is a kind of catch-all-other-cases kind of widget. You get space but have to do everything yourself.
12:34<Hirundo>I'm talking about roughly a dozen lines of text here, using separate widgets for those is a little too much I'd say
12:35<Alberth>not a problem in my book, if they are separate lines (ie not one very long line that must be wrapped)
12:36<Alberth>eg the news settings window has 4 widgets in each news category (12 or so categories iirc)
12:37<Alberth>when dropping known sizes for text, the computations for positioning and sizing quickly get complicated. If the widget system can take care of that, why not?
12:41<Hirundo>I'm dealing with 5 columns * 10 rows = 50 widgets :S
12:42*Hirundo doesn't want to write such a widget tree
12:45<+glx>you can create the tree dynamically
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12:49<Alberth>yes, write a piece of code, I did that too with the news settings
12:51<Alberth>news_gui.cpp:1304: NWidgetFunction(MakeButtonsColumn),
12:51<Alberth>where MakeButtonsColumn is a function
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12:52<+glx>that's one of the good feature added by nested widgets
12:52*Hirundo examines code
12:56<Hirundo>How does the biggest_index parameter of such a widget function work?
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13:04<Alberth>each nested widget has an index number in the nested array. normally those values are from an enum. In this case, you should assign numbers yourself.
13:04<Alberth>the widget system needs to know the highest number you use, so it can allocate enough memory.
13:05<Alberth>of course if you use bigger numbers elsewhere in the window, that is taken as 'biggest'
13:06<Alberth>it does not matter if you don't use some numbers, that entry in simply left NULL
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13:08<Eddi|zuHause>hm... party in the village
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>and they're playing "Preußens Gloria"
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKnRLUqynds <- so you can enjoy it, too ;) (haven't actually checked the link)
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13:35<andythenorth>can anyone think of any palette hacks to give boats exhaust smoke
13:35<andythenorth>?
13:38<Doorslammer>That would be cool
13:38<Doorslammer>No possibility of using the diesel smoke from a train?
13:40<andythenorth>for ships there is no equivalent of prop 22 (visual effects)
13:40<andythenorth>it could be done with animated frames, but that would mean a lot of extra frames...
13:41<Doorslammer>I find it odd that a sprite for one thing can't be used for another
13:41<Doorslammer>But of course I would say that with my lack of coding knowledge
13:42<andythenorth>when I get to drawing steam ships, it's going to be more noticeably lacking
13:42<@Rubidium>Doorslammer: there's two ways of 'can'
13:44<@Rubidium>you can, in theory, use the doors of your house a garage door, but you can't without modifying a few things of the garage door
13:44<Doorslammer>I wonder why I thought this was devzone
13:44<Doorslammer>Oopsie
13:44<@Rubidium>same as with OpenTTD you can, in theory, use a prop 22 equivalent for ships, but you can't without doing the modifications needed to implement that feature
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r17581 /trunk/src/lang/ (finnish.txt russian.txt unfinished/vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 104 changes by nglekhoi
13:45<Doorslammer>Well that's fair enough
13:46<Doorslammer>No doubt that situation may change in due course
13:46<@Rubidium>wooh... nglekhoi is doing a good job in increasing the overall completions of the translations
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13:50<Alberth>very much so
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13:58<andythenorth>fish fish fish....what should I do about container ships? I am trying to draw this set in a lazy way (coder meaning of lazy)
13:59<andythenorth>adding containers to existing ships is easy, but will produce a ghoulish action 2 / varaction 2 chain
14:00<andythenorth>the issue is that for many cargos, they can be validly carried in containers, or as bulk / break bulk cargo
14:01<andythenorth>which gets me into a world of cargo subtypes
14:02<andythenorth>How about for some cargos, after a certain date they just use containers?
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14:04<andythenorth>or maybe nobody cares about containers. So that would be easy :P
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14:06<jirik>Hi, I am looking for some OpenTTD pack with passengers destinations, but something newer then Roujin's pack which is one year old. Could anybody help me?
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14:34*fjb cares about containers.
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14:36<andythenorth>fjb: tell me...
14:37<fjb>Almost everything is transported in containers now and most train sets support them. So containers ships would be nice to have.
14:39<andythenorth>do you want to be able to choose to have containers, or would you be happy for the grf to decide what cargos get containers?
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14:40<asilv>being able to choose would be nice to have but not must have feature for me
14:41<fjb>I would be happy if the grf decided it.
14:42<fjb>Maybe explicit container ships in modern times could be an addition if the rest of the grf is in place.
14:43<andythenorth>fjb: I thought of explicit container ships. The thing is that it would add a lot more ships to the buy menu (allowing for coasters, river boats, and towboats)....
14:43<fjb>Btw, how do engineering supplies influence mines?
14:44<andythenorth>...plus most modern ships can carry containers or general cargo
14:44<andythenorth>re: engineering supplies, they increase production, but not much. the code's not finished in that part of FIRS
14:44<fjb>It was just an idea.
14:45<fjb>One of my ore mines has a production of 888 tonnes per month. Thats why I asked.
14:46<andythenorth>I am reading my HEQS code to remind myself how refit cycles work. Containers might be possible as a refit...
14:46<andythenorth>:)
14:46<andythenorth>if I'm right
14:46<andythenorth>:( if I'm wrong
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14:47<fjb>Refit would be nice. But I don't mind if containers do get added later.
14:48<asilv>andythenorth: now that we are talking about FIRS, do you think I should disable gas stations and supermarkets in swedish houses if FIRS is loaded, or will FIRS do it?
14:48<+glx><fjb> One of my ore mines has a production of 888 tonnes per month <-- it's not yours
14:48<andythenorth>asilv: I'm not sure. That's a question for FooBar :)
14:48<asilv>also what about was generation for houses?
14:48<asilv>+waste
14:49<andythenorth>we have considered how FIRS interacts with town sets. we want it to play nice
14:49<andythenorth>ask in the forums development thread ;)
14:49<andythenorth>waste generation from houses would be nice
14:49<fjb>glx: quibbler :-P
14:49<andythenorth>we'd need to make sure players weren't confused
14:50<asilv>yes
14:50<andythenorth>i.e. they play a FIRS game with one town set, they get different industry chains to another set
14:50<andythenorth>I think that adds to the game in the long term though
14:50<andythenorth>it keeps it interesting figuring out how to play new chains
14:50<asilv>waste generation unfortunately means that I would have to write custom cargo generation callback for all houses
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14:51<andythenorth>do it another day?
14:52<asilv>I wastn't planning to do it now :p
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14:57<fjb>Seeing the swedish houses makes me almost feel at home.
14:58<asilv>next version may also have parameter to turn flags off for non-swedish games
14:59<fjb>That would be even more looking like my home.
15:01<Zuu>weee, I really don't like this current behaviour of my AI. In 1950 it can detect the coverage radius of airport type 0 (small airport), but in 1960 it fails.
15:02<fjb>That is odd. I would think it would fail after 2000 (greetings from Pisa).
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15:06<Zuu>Indeed really odd. In one save-game when I load it it is in 1950 and shortly after it runs the code that checks if the airport accepts passengers or not. If I load that game and cheats to 1960 it will fail to get the coverage radius, with, height of the airport. (I use the same function for both nonexistent and existing airports in order to test that code more)
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15:07<Zuu>So even for existing airports I actually create a tile list based on the top left tile and the with/height that OpenTTD returns + coverage radius and then check the cargo acceptance for that tile rect.
15:08<Zuu>In 1950 the width/height of the small airport is 4x3, in 1960 it is -1, -1. :-s
15:11<fjb>Does something overwrite that variables?
15:11<Zuu>Unless I have found a very obscurd bug in OpenTTD I guess I somehow have a bug somewhere in my code causing this weird behaviour. I've recently restructed the code a lot. Another bug I found ended up being caused by me calling SetCurrentRoadType at a place that worked before, but now it could happen that it got called to late.
15:12<Zuu>Hmm, I will add the function in question to a mini-AI and test it there.
15:13<CraKinShOt>Rubidium: done it, I've used the 8bits of m7 + 4 bits from m6 and 4 bits from m2. Gives a 16bit index i can use to reference a SignalEx struct from a pool
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15:24<Zuu>I have the problem also in my mini-AI. And I have tracked it down to that when you change year between 1959 and 1960 the coverage+size of the small airport is no longer returned (instead -1 is returned). Another thing that happen when you go from 1959->1960 is that the small airport is no longer available for construction. Perhaps that is related?
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15:26<Zuu>Shall I file a bug for this and upload my test AI along with a savegame + instructions?
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>why ask? the worst that can happen is that it gets closed...
15:28<andythenorth>fish fish...it's easy enough to make all cargos refittable to containers....but that's a bit weird. Not everything travels in containers.
15:30<andythenorth>I think I'll leave containers for another day...
15:31<andythenorth>I think there is probably a solution using cargo classes. But I'd need help. And the refit menu would get....long
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>have you seen some of the aircraft refits with realistic liveries?
15:35<andythenorth>yup
15:36<andythenorth>I've got code for the refit, the issue is excluding all the cargos that shouldn't really refit to containers
15:36<andythenorth>like bulk
15:36<andythenorth>with the various industry sets, that's a big job...
15:36<andythenorth>partly my fault for introducing FIRS :|
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>hehe ;)
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>i think i did tell you that you should stick as closely to ECS as you can ;)
15:37<andythenorth>we did!
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15:38<andythenorth>when should containers become generally in use?
15:40<andythenorth>NARS 2 introduces doublestacks in 1985
15:40<andythenorth>seems a little late
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>hm... somewhen around the 70's i'd've thought
15:41<asilv>"The first vessels purpose-built to carry containers began operation in Denmark in 1951" says wikipedia
15:42<andythenorth>if there was *no* choice for the player, what would be the list of cargos to go in containers, after, say, about 1975
15:42<andythenorth>Goods?
15:43<asilv>cargo class express? except tourist? :P
15:43<andythenorth>good suggestion
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>anything that is not passenger or bulk?
15:43<asilv>livestock in containers?
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>anything that is not alive or bulk?
15:44<asilv>livestock is pice googds isn't it
15:44<andythenorth>the fun world of cargo classes :)
15:44<andythenorth>fruit and vegetables?
15:44<andythenorth>milk?
15:44<asilv>my spelling doesn't work today:(
15:44<asilv>why not
15:45<andythenorth>cotton?
15:45<andythenorth>wool?
15:45<asilv>and the are liquid containers too
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>those are not bulk?
15:45<andythenorth>there are reefer containers, so refrigerated can go in those (I won't redraw, they are too small to care)
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15:46<andythenorth>liquid containers - I don't want to draw them :P
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>you shouldn't transport wood in containers, though
15:46<andythenorth>For FIRS, express cargo would work well
15:46<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/cargos
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>so goods, valuables, mail?
15:47<andythenorth>yep
15:47<andythenorth>why not :)
15:49<andythenorth>this means I need to make friends with varaction 2 variable 47 :|
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>what about "engineering supplies" and the like?
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15:50<andythenorth>there was previously some argument that they should not be express cargo. can't remember who or what
15:50<andythenorth>but they're piece goods
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15:50<andythenorth>they could go by container, but it's not necessary
15:51<andythenorth>I have just tried loading coasters up with bulldozers for those cargos, but it doesn't look good
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>i think most of the piece goods could optionally be transported by container
15:52<andythenorth>possibly
15:52<andythenorth>So the question I have to decide - make it a player choice, or just force containers after a certain date?
15:52<andythenorth>both have downsides
15:53<andythenorth>I prefer forcing containers because it's way easier to code
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15:58<andythenorth>DaleStan: (probably stupid) nfo question
15:58<andythenorth>is anything odd going to happen if I reuse an action 2 chain for different vehicles.
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>why would it? consider varaction2 like a function call
15:59<andythenorth>somehow I never grokked that
15:59<andythenorth>so HEQS is probably *full* of redundant code
15:59<andythenorth>and providing a better FISH just got easier
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>a function may be called from more than one place
16:00<andythenorth>grr :)
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16:09<DaleStan>andythenorth: Eddi|zuHause is correct. Provided the feature bytes match, you may reference any action 2 from any number of other action 2s or 3s.
16:10<andythenorth>Well it only took me a year to figure that out :)
16:10<andythenorth>thanks
16:23<Zuu>[noai] Hmm, It is actually not even possible to check the acceptance of an existing station without implementing it the same way as checking the station before building it.
16:25<Zuu>Making the options for FS#3215 only being changing the implementation. Unless I've missed something fundamental.
16:25<Zuu>(implementation of OpenTTD)
16:28<andythenorth>hmm...do I want to learn how to use var 7E (procedures)?
16:29<planetmaker>sure you do, andythenorth ;-)
16:29<andythenorth>ow
16:29<andythenorth>I'll probably need help
16:30<andythenorth>let me try without it
16:30<planetmaker>how else would you get an uber-fish? ;-)
16:30<andythenorth>procedures would just make for more efficient code use. But also maybe harder to understand code
16:30<andythenorth>not pythonic!! As if nfo was anything like python...
16:31<planetmaker>it would have the advantage that I'd have example code then which I could re-use ;-)
16:32<andythenorth>undoubtedly a good thing
16:33<andythenorth>well the documentation is here:
16:33<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VarAction2Advanced
16:33<andythenorth>my case might not need procedures though
16:33<andythenorth>let me try a bit of code first
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16:41<CraKinShOt>quick question
16:41<CraKinShOt>saving and loading
16:41<CraKinShOt>what would be the version for "latest"?
16:41<CraKinShOt>0?
16:41<CraKinShOt>or SL_MAX_VERSION?
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16:47<planetmaker>SL_MAX_VERSION
16:48<CraKinShOt>cheers
16:48<CraKinShOt>Nearly there now. :D just need to get it to save and load properly
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16:50<andythenorth>nfo: what value would I get for variable B4 (current speed) if vehicle is stopped?
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16:50<CraKinShOt>Party?
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16:50<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium, orudge, SmatZ, any op?
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16:51-!-mode/#openttd [+i] by Rubidium
16:51<CraKinShOt>DOS?
16:51-!-worldemar [~woldemar@85.114.185.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>join-flood
16:51<andythenorth>meh
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16:52<@Rubidium>don't know whether +i is really what we wanted, but I don't know what would be the better mode
16:52<@Rubidium>i is invite only, right?
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>other option would be +l (limit)
16:53-!-mode/#openttd [+R-i] by Rubidium
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>only registered?
16:53<KingJ>Or +R for register
16:54-!-ExpressOOOO`C0ffe3 [~Tau-maru@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
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16:54<Xaroth>+i is invite only, +m is moderated
16:54<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: registration people can do if they want to get in, finding someone to uhm... invite them seems harder
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>quite possibly...
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still not registered after all those years
16:55<andythenorth>nfo: what value would I get for variable B4 (current speed) if vehicle is stopped?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>and my disconnect is in 2:30
16:55-!-co_fs_fb_ym [~cokulbdg_@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
16:55-!-mode/#openttd [-R] by Rubidium
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16:56<Xaroth>er
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16:56<Xaroth>put it back! :P
16:56-!-mode/#openttd [+R] by Rubidium
16:56<Xaroth>Rubidium: +s ?
16:56<Xaroth>+sekrit
16:56<Xaroth>means it doesn't show up in /list
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>i kinda doubt that this'll help
16:56<Xaroth>not at this point
16:56<Xaroth>hang on
16:56<Xaroth>Join» (naughty) (~ButuhFree@test.dnsbl.oftc.net)
16:57<Xaroth>test.dnsbl.oftc.net ?
16:57<Xaroth>Join» (cowo_biasa_25) (~andhy_nac@9KCAAAM99.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net)
16:57<@Rubidium>bah, my irc is getting laggy
16:57<Xaroth>duno what oftc is doing but it sure is dodgy
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>those look like vhosts to me
16:57-!-aryo_ [~myla_23@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:47)]
16:57-!-cwoPplngskul_smk [~woww@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:49)]
16:57-!-Disgruntled [~bo-yaa3go@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:49)]
16:57-!-pinay_36 [~Andra_Cut@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:49)]
16:57-!-co_solo [~yuga@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:49)]
16:57-!-Cwok_dws_ajak [~Aaaanasta@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:49)]
16:57-!-mencari_ibu2_bisyar [~yangil30@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:51)]
16:57-!-pjkbtuhduit [~cew_mblad@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:57-!-ce_akper [~Pangeran_@203.162.112.6] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:53)]
16:57-!-[iMMoRtaL] [~Andree@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:53)]
16:57-!-DedY_jogJa [~link_cute@203.162.112.6] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:53)]
16:57-!-Co_sange18cm [~Om_dikant@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:53)]
16:57<Xaroth>there we go
16:57-!-mencari_ibu2_bisyar is "(unknown)" on (unknown)
16:57-!-revclyde [~Man_cYbeR@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:57)]
16:57-!-_Bianca_ [~TEMP3R@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:57)]
16:57-!-AL7Up [~cwo_gante@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:57)]
16:57-!-cinta_mo_kocokin_cow [~Co_V-IXIO@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:57)]
16:57-!-Co_kul_maranatha [~EhgY_co@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:59)]
16:57-!-Delicius [~fruity-gi@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:57:59)]
16:57-!-[iMMoRtaL] is "(unknown)" on (unknown)
16:58-!-ce_akper is "(unknown)" on (unknown)
16:58-!-Denise_S2 [~Luke30@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:58:25)]
16:58-!-__jaimatadi__ [~Man_cYbeR@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:58:27)]
16:58-!-Invierno [~psikolog@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:58:29)]
16:58<Xaroth>a LOT are @ test.dnsbl.oftc.net :o
16:58-!-Kelana_Cinta [~admirateu@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:58:31)]
16:58-!-meLL_InBndung_juohh [~cE_LiKe_b@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:58:33)]
16:58-!-penny^lane [~jcp@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:58:33)]
16:58-!-looking_for_nice_girl_now [~co_naxxx@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:58:33)]
16:58-!-yangil30 [~LuCiFeR__@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:58:35)]
16:58-!-Gotan [~martin24@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:58:35)]
16:58-!-co_fine [~Cupank@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:58-!-cwo_F4 [~BlackInNe@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:58<Xaroth>might be oper-set vhosts so they can mass-kill them :o
16:59-!-stefygurl [~andrean@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:59:03)]
16:59-!-kefin_aja [~plume``@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:59:03)]
16:59-!-RUDDY_JKT [~Midna@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:59:05)]
16:59-!-agas [~om_cr_ce_@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:59:05)]
16:59-!-co_nyante [~MTLParty@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:59-!-narra [~IcHanTiQu@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:59:07)]
16:59-!-boyts [~penny^lan@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:59:07)]
16:59-!-Lumiled [~ticca@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:59:07)]
16:59-!-^Cow_BIasa [~co_coool@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:59:07)]
16:59-!-^^KONSELOR3_curhat [~rendang@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
16:59-!-mortifera [~Om_dikant@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:59:09)]
16:59-!-loneguy [~co_1818@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. Mail support@oftc.net if you feel this in error. (2009-09-19 20:59:13)]
16:59-!-andhy_nac-smapaht [~KORCH-awa@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:59-!-andrew_hung [~CE_clique@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>most of the joins only have an IP here...
16:59<Xaroth>yeh
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>i don't get hostmasks on the kills
16:59-!-kari [~co_fb_46@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:59<Xaroth>I do
17:00-!-Valoux [~blue_lady@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
17:00<Xaroth>sign that their vhost was set after joining
17:00-!-juliette40 [~fernando_@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:01-!-Andree [~^C0-Kerja@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:01-!-cO26jkt [~ridho_rif@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:01-!-DhimmEr [~cokulbdg_@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:01-!-zZzZ_bOys [~cow_oL@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:01-!-mechant28 [~Jaaelani@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:01-!-cinta_17 [~SillySand@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:02-!-sam0715 [~co_solo@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:02-!-cwo__bersahabat [~LeD|oC@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:02-!-fatur [~Ce_George@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
17:02-!-boy_Jkt [~ce_ketemu@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:02-!-BAYBEEEE^_^BLUEE [~co_marcel@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:02-!-nindKa_ [~CE_BTHKRJ@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-PRIA_MACHO_XXX [~a121eL@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-ADI-T [~koalaa@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-c0_GANTENG_BERDUIT_bt_CR_aww [~c3_LuVLy@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-Tueur_Vagin [~Om_Bayar_@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-pRiNCEsS_89 [~ce_ketemu@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-COcariCEdwsaTE2Kecil [~cwo_keren@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-Bnt_aBohaa [~CO_DOYAN@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-COWO_GEDE1 [~stivqc@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-LoNDoNBabE [~hadimtp@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-mit [~P]A]T]@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:03-!-Wendat_28 [~unixcode@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:03-!-citronade03 [~co_co_co@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-neneksky [~co-mau@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-CO-HOTManCariHORNYMarriedWomen [~ce_montok@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-georges70 [~c3_usiL@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:03-!-Cwo_caRi_tmen [~sayid@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:03-!-ce_sederhana [~No_Christ@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:03-!-phil\420 [~QUEEN_OF_@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:03-!-Gi_Ngenet_Aja [~Hiicham@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04-!-cowok_18 [~KlausFuch@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04-!-G\e\e\k [~raditya_a@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:04-!-ervina_16 [~Guest3380@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:04-!-Ry4n_b3tE [~butchi_mo@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04-!-VegePat29 [~dhiean^mo@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04-!-LeRebel [~surya@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04-!-C0_C00L [~lesbian_m@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:04-!-Andre_21_bdg [~koala@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04-!-moel [~Guest8820@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04-!-link_cute [~b0mb@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:04-!-Cari_IM2_Second [~C0_18_PNg@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:05-!-Jakx [~sitampan@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:05-!-ian09 [~cwo_crz36@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:05-!-Putri_KoDoK [~SHATTERR@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:06-!-CO_LG_NGCOK_KONTL [~cwe_ml@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:06-!-OM_45 [~cE_ucHulL@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
17:06-!-co_1818 [~COWO_GEDE@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-ijase [~SHATTERR@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-prez [~Pline@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-PrAyInG^EyEs [~CO_cibubu@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
17:06-!-belegug [~sweetleaf@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-yuga [~Black_Bos@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Write error: connection closed]
17:06-!-david[de] [~nazi_a]@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-ce_berjilbab [~ayiesya_n@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-akhwat_santun [~c0___@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-LHR^M^LHR [~prjonzy87@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-Alphore [~blue_lady@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Write error: connection closed]
17:06-!-co_mapan_cr_ce [~c0_dws_cr@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-stiffmeister [~plantesse@9KCAAAMY1.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-cari_agen [~Irma_Hot_@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-andreas_mks [~cew^72alo@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-pukey [~Dignity@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-exmud_bthceww_4fun [~M4Le_27@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-ce_CANTIK_cR_YG_MW_TRNSFER_DUI [~Pasti@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-JHHY [proxy@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-RAMAAA [~Assuradda@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-naughty [~ButuhFree@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-dark_angel [~filloue@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-Cupank [~tess_pret@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-Frenn [~Futee@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-co_kuliah [~cwo_broad@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-Qwz [~CO_DOYAN@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-SanMigLyt_M [~Co_kul_ma@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Write error: connection closed]
17:06-!-Tina78 [~Oasis-@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-andryy [~c0_33@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:06-!-cwoq_cri [~co_______@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Write error: connection closed]
17:06-!-No_Bizar [~co_cr_ce-@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-Tarzan_de_Ch [~Cowok_Vol@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-galnk [~MissAnthr@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
17:06-!-fikriii_mu [~Gi_Ngenet@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-co_87 [~DA13@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:06-!-cO_baEq [~Co36thn_C@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-[[Co_cr_tokedt]] [~BlackInNe@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-kMcJoe7274AG [~Co_mau_ng@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-Wingate1st [~Fahr@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-Memen [~c0_stawbe@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:06-!-Oasis- [~GSTARR@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-lita_15 [~Zu|fi@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
17:06-!-amie [~kari@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-Eurotrash [~Jim101@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-[David]KS[Lee] [~Urania@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-cwok_cri [~andre^@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Write error: connection closed]
17:06-!-StePH[G] [~DavidB__@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-cE_imOoet [~DropB0t@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-co_300_serius [~Aandreita@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-NassGorr [~stivqc@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-_WISHmaster_ [~ce_CANTIK@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-joe_rock [~co_OL_YM_@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-COWO_KERJA [~DoctorX29@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Write error: connection closed]
17:06-!-erar_li [~Alfred30@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-shemale_lookin4 [~shine`@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-Cepet_crCwe_bsyr [~Gamacca02@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-tyo [~arki_guy@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:06-!-Sry_86 [~MINUL@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-vithz [~cO_baEq@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-AnakAyam [~EroticMas@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Write error: connection closed]
17:06-!-Co-cr_cw_bayaran [~JLove@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:06-!-[Man_KERJA_JKT] [~Asiachat@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-Chat_Sauvage [~cow_cr_es@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-B1NTANG [~ce_basah_@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Write error: connection closed]
17:06-!-PEJANTAN_TANGGU [~PijatSens@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-cowo_biasa_25 [~andhy_nac@9KCAAAM99.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:06-!-piojo_karate [~malejkt@test.dnsbl.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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17:07<CraKinShOt>Whats Max SendQ?
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17:09<@Rubidium>probably that the length of the queue of stuff to send (to the 'client') got above some threshold
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17:09<Eddi|zuHause>sending faster than receiving answer packets?
17:09<@Rubidium>with those massive reset by peers from many channels, any thing that's in many channels might get bitten by it
17:10<@Rubidium>though many is probably a huge number, like 100+ or so
17:10-!-mode/#openttd [-R] by Rubidium
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17:14<andythenorth>that was fun :|
17:14<CraKinShOt>Don't see the point tbh
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>don't they have bots for join-flood-protection in here?
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>but you can pretty safely set a limit of 150 or something
17:15<@Rubidium>CraKinShOt: there are more things that most don't see the point in, like e.g. stealing
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>it's rather unlikely we ever reach that ;)
17:16<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: my fear is that we don't remember we ever set that limit
17:16-!-roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [autokilled: Spammer - Contact support@oftc.net for help. (2009-09-19 21:16:33)]
17:17<@Rubidium>and it wouldn't stop floods either; only make them less likely to happen
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>that's why you usually have bots that set the limit automatically to around 10 above current usage
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but they don't immediately jump to 800 people before anybody notifies a dev
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>s/dev/op/
17:18-!-mode/#openttd [+l 150] by Rubidium
17:18<@Rubidium>oh, it shows an l, that should be quasi visible
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>woo... fireworks
17:18<+glx>the best way is 10 above connected, with update every 5 minutes
17:18<@Rubidium>poor roboboy, which leecher is next?
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17:22<Eddi|zuHause>is it normal that the firefighters are the worst pyromaniacs of all?
17:22<@Rubidium>wouldn't updating +l cause a foo set mode +l n every 5 minutes?
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:23<@Rubidium>@calc 800*5*2/60/24
17:23<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 5.55555555556
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>but in low fluctuation channels and a halfway decent hysteresis, the amount of updates should be very low
17:24<@Rubidium>so within a week the +l spam probably outweighs the flooders that happen like once every 6 months
17:25-!-andythenorth [~andy@87.114.87.24.plusnet.thn-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has left #openttd []
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but if you set it to users+50 and a hysteresis tolerance of 20, you hardly ever will get an update...
17:25<Sacro>oooh
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>don't know if the standard bots are configurable like that
17:26<Sacro>i've had a request to include the original (tr*.grf and sample.cat) in the ArchLinux openttd-svn package
17:26<Sacro>do any other distros provide them?
17:26<@Rubidium>Sacro: they don't
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
17:26-!-Grelouk [~Grelouk@202.155.206-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:26<CraKinShOt>use the opengfx?
17:26<@Rubidium>and please put them in a package called transport-tycoon-deluxe-stolen-files or so
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>but you may provide opengfx
17:27<@Rubidium>yes, fedora provides opengfx; Debian's packager is (occasionally) working on getting opengfx in Debian
17:27-!-Grelouk [~Grelouk@23.161.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #openttd
17:27<Sacro>I could provide an openttd-opengfx package
17:28<@Rubidium>I don't know about the rest though
17:28<Sacro>is there a repo?
17:28<Sacro>like openttd-opengfx-svn or -git or -hg or something
17:28<@Rubidium>hg.openttdcoop.org
17:28<@Rubidium>and bundles.openttdcoop.org (for the tarballs)
17:29<@Rubidium>oh, not hg. but mz.openttdcoop.org/hg (Ammler, which does hg. only show favicon?)
17:30<Ammler>don't use the source packages for?
17:30<Ammler>you*
17:31<@Rubidium>+arch?
17:33-!-asilv [~as@h-62-142-160-55.joensuunelli.fi] has quit []
17:33<Ammler>hg.openttdcoop.org isn't complete
17:33<Ammler>but http://mz.openttdcoop.org/hg/opengfx should work
17:33<Sacro>well, I don't mind
17:34<Sacro>could use either
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17:52*Sacro contemplates package changing
17:53<Sacro>so is latest opengfx-0.1.0-alpha6?
17:54<@Rubidium>if 0.7.3-RC1 is latest, then yes
17:55<Sacro>errm
17:55<Sacro>well Arch has openttd, openttd-beta, openttd-svn
17:55<Sacro>oh and openttd-rc (which is at 0.6.2-rc1)
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>that is very...
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>i can't describe it with words
17:56<Sacro>i could do an openttd-nightly :D
17:56<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: i like having them all seperate
17:57<@Rubidium>and beta is 0.6.0-beta3 (would explain that server)
17:57<Sacro>openttd-beta is 0.7.3-RC1
17:57<Sacro>so I could do an openttd-opengfx-0.1.0-alpha6 package
17:59<Sacro>he also wants me to include timidity as a requirement
17:59<@Rubidium>oh, then don't bother with opengfx
17:59<@Rubidium>if timidity is required, so is the music
17:59<Sacro>well what about sample.cat?
18:00<Sacro>is there an open sound set?
18:00<Sacro>ie one i can distribute under a nice licence
18:00<@Rubidium>there is an open sound set
18:00<@Rubidium>actually, there are two
18:00<@Rubidium>one is GPLv2 and one is CC Sampling
18:00<@Rubidium>the former is as finished as it'll ever be, the latter has still half of the samples to do
18:01-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@89.246.169.232] has joined #openttd
18:01<@Rubidium>however, the open sound sets only work with trunk
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18:03<Sacro>argh fooooooook, i typed sl instead of ls ><
18:03*Sacro sits and watches the train go past
18:03<@Rubidium>what's sl then?
18:03<Illegal_Alien>Tsjoo Tsjoo
18:03<Sacro>Rubidium: steam line or something
18:03<Sacro>it shows a level crossing lowering, thena steam train goes past
18:04<Sacro>then the crossing raises and you get your terminal back
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>useless time waster of the day?
18:06<Sacro>Yes
18:07<@Rubidium>ofcourse... a Japanese person
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18:18<CraKinShOt>well posted by idea on the forum: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=45208
18:18<CraKinShOt>see if anyone can see a better way than using the pool (not sure if its the best thing for what I'm doing)
18:19<CraKinShOt>should be useful, would extend into programmable / restriction signals
18:19<CraKinShOt>which would actually give use for the feather paths
18:19<CraKinShOt>rather than just visual
18:23<Sacro>CraKinShOt: nice idea... wonder who came up with it...
18:24<CraKinShOt>Well know the patch did something simular...
18:25<CraKinShOt>most of the openttd stuff I've seen on new signals, so far, all add information to the tile
18:25<Sacro>i want feathers :D
18:25<CraKinShOt>but I just wanted to do feathers
18:26<CraKinShOt>with proper junction specification and UK based graphics (at least for my on copy.). ;)
18:26<Sacro>OH YES :D
18:26<Sacro>we need a UK Signals set
18:26<Sacro>the thing that pisses me off most is PBS signals having a bar on them
18:27<CraKinShOt>but yeah, the restricted signals and programmable signals is all TTDPatch ideas
18:27<CraKinShOt>I just want to get a general SignalEx patch into the trunk before the last remaining 16 bits are taken up. :D
18:28<Sacro>hmmmm
18:28<Sacro>well you can always add more bits
18:28<CraKinShOt>apparently not... or at least it'll likely not go into the trunk if it needs it
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18:29<Sacro>hehe
18:29<Sacro>we should start a UK signals thread
18:29<CraKinShOt>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=45172
18:30<CraKinShOt>that mockup did it for me. I just want that working. :D
18:31<CraKinShOt>granted with 8-bit seeing the feathers would be hard
18:34<Sacro>errm
18:34<Sacro>why is that second signal at yellow?
18:35<Sacro>that looks like a bug
18:35<Sacro>unless he was being approach controlled to red
18:37<CraKinShOt>lol its a mock up
18:37<CraKinShOt>in reality it would be flashing yellow
18:37<CraKinShOt>to indicate to the driver the next signal is a junction
18:37<CraKinShOt>even if that junction is at green
18:37<CraKinShOt>most high-speed railways have this system in one form or another
18:39<CraKinShOt>in terms of using it in the game, yellow signals would slow trains down
18:39<Sacro>well yes, that's the point of yellow signals
18:40-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-113-94.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:40<CraKinShOt>;)
18:40*Sacro knows a *lot* about GB signalling
18:40<Sacro>not sure about NI though
18:41<CraKinShOt>but yeah, getting the very basical (and general) patch to allow complex additions to signals, without affecting anything else is my goal at the moment
18:42<CraKinShOt>... and taking those last 16 bits. XD
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>so "flashing yellow" has the meaning of "next signal has lower speed limit"?
18:42<CraKinShOt>junction 2 blocks ahead
18:42<CraKinShOt>oh sorry...
18:42<CraKinShOt>1 block ahead
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>(you can make a flashing yellow light by reusing the lighthouse colours)
18:43<CraKinShOt>but yeah, its generally to specifiy that the route is coming off the mainline
18:43<CraKinShOt>so trains arn't switching tracks at 90 mph. :D
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18:44<Sacro>no, flashing yellow is so they can switch at 90mph
18:44<Sacro>otherwise they could just use a fixed yellow
18:45<CraKinShOt>hmm
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause>well, in germany, the speed limit for this and the next signal is usually given next to the signal
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause>in <number>*10km/h
18:46<CraKinShOt>the japanise system is bad
18:46<CraKinShOt>so many variations
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>if you want flashing yellow, check docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif, colours 241-244
18:46<Sacro>german has a lot of variations
18:47<CraKinShOt>ok cool, will check out.
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>germany has like 5 different systems, but they are usually not intermixed
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.stellwerke.de/signal/deutsch/vor-haupt.html [german]
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19:07<Eddi|zuHause>http://home.arcor-online.de/estw/ks.gif <- this one is the most modern (and most complicated) signal system in germany
19:08<CraKinShOt>But don't all DB trains have the signalling routed into the cabin?
19:08<Coco-Banana-Man>no
19:08-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:08<Coco-Banana-Man>It's only needed when driving faster than 160 kph
19:08<Sacro>haubsignal?
19:08<Sacro>*hauptsignal?
19:08<Sacro>or something
19:09<planetmaker>main signal
19:09<CraKinShOt>crazy system... the more complex the signal the more likely the driver misinterprets it
19:09<planetmaker>as opposed to pre-signal
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>CraKinShOt: it's not that difficult to interpret
19:10<planetmaker>CraKinShOt: the colours and the blink-effects are quite clear
19:10<CraKinShOt>well I'm thinking about at speed.
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>CraKinShOt: green still means "go" and red still means "stop". the numbers give speed limits
19:11<CraKinShOt>true I guess
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>the smaller lights have some less often used special meanings
19:12<CraKinShOt>do I have to worry about the network code now that I have added a new pool?
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>like the small white light in the top left means "the next main signal is closer than usual [1000m]"
19:13<CraKinShOt>or does the network just copy commands?
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>CraKinShOt: if you have proper saveload code, the network should adapt properly
19:13<CraKinShOt>right okaydoky, thats makes life easier
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>just have to make sure that all information can be deterministically recalculated from the savegame
19:14<CraKinShOt>can you have conditional loading in the SaveLoad mechanism?
19:14<CraKinShOt>i.e. load something, if thats true, load something else, else dont
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>you can probably do about anything if you add a new saveload chunk
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>but that might be a way you don't want to go ;)
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really have any experience in that field
19:17<CraKinShOt>well I'm looking at the SLE_... defines
19:18<CraKinShOt>trying to go through the existing object _sl files to see if I can spot a conditional statement being used
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what you're trying to achieve
19:20<CraKinShOt>basically, I have 2 states. Something is or isn't being used
19:20<CraKinShOt>if its being used then I need to save 7*sizeof(TileIndex)
19:21<CraKinShOt>saving that regardless seems like it could be detrimental to the network speed if it has to send that infomation all the time
19:21<CraKinShOt>... so yeah if its not being used, don't store those 7 variables
19:22<CraKinShOt>I suppose I could do a two-pass, save everything without it, then save everything with it.
19:22<CraKinShOt>easiest solution
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>"all the time" means when a player joins the network game
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>during the connection, almost no data is sent.
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>only interactive commands and a checksum in form of the random seed
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19:38<Dreamxtreme> This channel is invite-only. You must have an invite from an existing member of the channel to join. odd
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19:42<@Belugas>mmh... render in stereo what has been recorded in stereo
19:42<@Belugas>ooops... sorry... wrng channel
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>Dreamxtreme: we had a join-flood
19:43<Sacro>omnomnom
19:43-!-Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-76-109-50-97.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
19:43<Dreamxtreme>o ok :D
19:44<Nite_Owl>Hello all
19:44<Sacro>denner are knarval
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 20 00:00:50 2009