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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-10-16

---Logopened Fri Oct 16 00:00:28 2009
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01:01<Rhamphoryncus>umm wow... presignals are stupidly simple once you realize how to use them, and how *little* you need
01:08<Rhamphoryncus>You don't put a signal at the start of a block. You only put one at the end, and the start happens automagically
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01:12<Rhamphoryncus>and it's quite easy to crash them while messing with the layout..
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01:15<Rhamphoryncus>Huh. Won't go backwards through a signal to a depot
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01:48<planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: it's usually a good idea to use an entry-signal with pre-signals
01:54<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: path signals seem to be as good in some cases, better in others
01:54<Rhamphoryncus>It seems that the presence of a path signal magically make a station have a hidden path signal too. It does not do it to depots though
01:54<Rhamphoryncus>Probably a bug
01:56<Rhamphoryncus>heh, I can put a dummy path signal off to the side, then force a train past a normal signal, and it'll use pathing to avoid collisions
02:01<Rhamphoryncus>Well, they'll try to. If they can't find a path they'll continue forward, since you just told them to ignore the stopping point
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02:02<Yexo>good morning
02:04<Rhamphoryncus>Huh. My depots are pathing now. Dunno why they choked before
02:08<planetmaker>[07:54] <Rhamphoryncus> Probably a bug <-- most probable not ;-) but insufficient understanding
02:08<planetmaker>especially of how they work, if you mix signal types
02:08<Forked>morning Yexo :-)
02:09<planetmaker>and moin Yexo :-)
02:09<Rhamphoryncus>Further info: it seems trains will go backwards through one path signal, but not two. I don't know if that's a hard limit or a side effect of pathing cost
02:09<planetmaker>and everybody else, too :-)
02:09<Yexo>hello Forked
02:09<Yexo>hello planetmaker
02:09<planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: yes, it probably is. They have comparably huge penalties
02:11<planetmaker>e.g. you can nicely use them to set preferential routes for trains, so that e.g. the furthest station track is taken first by trains
02:11<Rhamphoryncus>So when the path itself is quite large it could conceivably do 2 or more.. but it's still unlikely to skip ALLLLL the way down a two-way route
02:12<planetmaker>them = backward path signals
02:13<planetmaker>though making level crossings (using roads) is just as fine and might even work better in some of those cases
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02:15*Rhamphoryncus tries a 3 track system
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02:35<Rhamphoryncus>hrm. Still times when a train doesn't move, but there's a path available
02:36<Rhamphoryncus>playing with a 4 track system now btw
02:41<Rhamphoryncus>Outer lanes are one-way to avoid deadlock. Inner were two-way (plain pathing, but different at either end). Now I'm experimenting with just plain paths for the inner though
02:47<Rhamphoryncus>heh, apparently giving back access to the station eliminates the stopping point
02:48<Rhamphoryncus>and confuses the hell out of the train.. it still wants that slot, but it can't stop there until the entire block is cleared
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03:29<planetmaker>morning andythenorth
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03:42<andythenorth>no Pikka?
03:42<andythenorth>No pikka
03:42<andythenorth>No nfo help :)
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05:32*Rubidium wonders how often people update their working copies/nightlies
05:33<andythenorth>when there's something interesting to test?
05:33*andythenorth wonders what I've done wrong this time...
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05:34<boekabart>Rubidium: no way to check svn up stats, nightly download stats
05:35<@Rubidium>boekabart: was more a rethorical question
05:35<@Rubidium>andythenorth: a former teacher would say the compiler doesn't understand the last bit because it's not commented
05:36<boekabart>it wasn't a question even, just a wondering :)
05:36<andythenorth>Rubidium: good point
05:36<@Rubidium>nightly download stats yes, svn up stats no
05:36<andythenorth>it is just a bunch of action 3s for industry tiles
05:36<@Rubidium>besides that... svn up stats don't tell how often (per working copy) an update is done
05:37<@Rubidium>only how often in total (or maybe per IP) an update is done
05:37<boekabart>I meant per ip-ish, yes
05:38<@Rubidium>we don't gather download/ip stats
05:38<andythenorth>Rubidium: I've added a few comments
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06:30<andythenorth>I think my stockpiling code is one step closer to working
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06:53<andythenorth>stockpiling produces *lot* of acceptance change news flashes
06:55<b_jonas>I never read acceptance change news flashes
06:55<b_jonas>they are useless
06:56<andythenorth>I'd like to suppress them
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06:56<andythenorth>but I guess that's up to the player
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06:59<andythenorth>Rubidium: if the production callback is called very 256 ticks, how many times is that per month (assume 30 days)
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06:59<@Rubidium>74 ticks a day
07:00<andythenorth>so about 8.7 times in a 30 day montb
07:00<andythenorth>'average' !
07:02<andythenorth>and now I've found my mistake :)
07:03<boekabart>Devs; would it be an idea to add to the VC80/90 vcproj the following:
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07:04<boekabart>(and similar for AdditionalIncludeDirectories)
07:05<boekabart>this way, everyone can put them anywhere they want; no-one NEEDS to include them in the VC default include dirs (because sometimes that's not good for other projects)
07:05<boekabart>it doesn't break current 'deployments'.
07:06<@Rubidium>well, you better talk to the window devs
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07:06<TrueBrain>and glx is not here yet ;)
07:06<boekabart>who's that this day and age?
07:08<b_jonas>openttd is not limited to 256 depots like ttd, is it?
07:09<Yexo>boekabart: I think you can also add the include directory to the project settings, that way you don't have to include themin the default include dirs either
07:09<b_jonas>okay, one more reason to try it after I've played enough with ttdpatch
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07:29<Terkhen>good afternoon
07:30<boekabart>Yexo: yes, but that way you always have a "M" project file, annoying when making patches
07:31<Yexo>boekabart: sorry, I don't have enough time to look at it now
07:31<Yexo>maybe glx can help you and otherwise I'll have a look sunday/monday
07:31<boekabart>that's exactly what this patch does: add it to the project settings, but as an env. variable. Nothing breaks if it's empty; and it can work for everyone
07:32<boekabart>I'll post it on FS
07:32<Yexo>I see, but I have to leave in 10 minutes so I can't test it now
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08:02<andythenorth>How's this for explanatory industry text?
08:02<andythenorth>This industry will try and use Engineering Supplies to increase production. Keep the stockpile above 0t for a chance of a production increase each month. Stockpile max limit: 200t
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08:17<b_jonas>what's the limit in ttd for the number of stations an industry delivers to?
08:19<b_jonas>and how do they choose? highest rating?
08:20<b_jonas>I see
08:20<b_jonas>so that's why my train doesn't work
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08:32<boekabart>'they' told me to talk to you about this
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>did "they" tell you about Bielefeld, too?
08:33<boekabart>Yes, about the Teutoburg Forest
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>that means "they" trapped you in their Bielefeld Conspiracy!
08:35<boekabart>hehe. I love that trillian pops up wikipedia explanations for stuff like that :)
08:35<+glx>boekabart: I'm used to the global setting, but why not :)
08:35<boekabart>global setting: it conflicts with other stuff (for work) ...
08:36<boekabart>and it's impractical to work as a different user for ottd
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08:58<b_jonas>argh... I just built a great train network and my trains won't go in the right direction
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09:06<@Rubidium>boekabart: the M for projects comes from differences in '/src/', not from '/'
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: check for ill placed signals or missing catenary
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09:06<boekabart>Rubidium: what?
09:07<boekabart>you mean, I could ignore all changes in projects and just make patches for src\ ?
09:07<boekabart>true but still a hackish hack
09:07<@Rubidium>oh, M there... though you were talking about the M in the version
09:08<boekabart>ah i see. no
09:08<boekabart>smart, btw, to make that src/ only
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09:09<@Rubidium>nevertheless, svn diff src/ makes a -p0 diff for '/' without changes in e.g. the project files
09:09<@Rubidium>(or at least my svn diff does)
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09:12<b_jonas>still checking
09:12<b_jonas>I have a track where the train can turn back and it turns back despite that the station is forward
09:12<b_jonas>but if I remove that turn back track the train works well
09:13<@Rubidium>well, usually it 'just' means it can't go the other way so it's forced to go a way even when it'll eventually deadlock itself somewhere else
09:14<+glx>weird I have linking errors with icu
09:14<boekabart>Rubidium: true, it does, it would just be nicer if one could work without this kind of local changes in his WC
09:14<boekabart>that's why severity is just Low
09:14<+glx>it used to work with my current setup
09:15<@Rubidium>ooh... glx is the second (or third if you count me) to notice
09:15<@Rubidium>after almost 2 days and 7 hours
09:15*boekabart has it too
09:16<boekabart>libicu.lib(udata.obj) : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol __imp__icudt42_dat
09:16<@Rubidium>the solution is simple... if you know where to 'look'
09:16<+glx>update openttd useful ?
09:17*glx knows there's a new version
09:17<boekabart>how new?
09:17<+glx>like today :)
09:17<@Rubidium>< 4 hours
09:17<boekabart>ah yes
09:17<boekabart>wiki needs updating, still says 2.3
09:18<@Rubidium>wiki shouldn't mention versions; it's always out-of-date that way
09:19<@Rubidium>*especially* when a moron comes along and changes august 2007 into something else for the DirectX SDK
09:20<b_jonas>I don't get it
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09:20<@Rubidium>or a moron on wikipedia that changes 'openttd is written in C++ since 0.6.0' into 'openttd is written in C++ since 0.7.2' or so
09:20<@Rubidium>b_jonas: then help us helping you...
09:21<b_jonas>should I post ttdpatch savegames or screenshots with descriptions?
09:21<@Rubidium>oh, it's TTDPatch?
09:21<b_jonas>maybe I should leave larger gaps between the signals after and before the turnback
09:21<+glx>or use an overcomplicated method to install DXSDK, like install latest and extract dmusic stuff from august 2007
09:21<@Rubidium>then it's just the PF only looking a relatively small number of tiles
09:21<b_jonas>but it fails even with no other trains close so I don't think that would help
09:21<@Rubidium>you need to add waypoints etc. to route trains properly there
09:22<+glx>yeah linking works now :)
09:22<b_jonas>Rubidium: doesn't it look at the general direction where the destination station is?
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09:23<b_jonas>anyway, waypoints might be a good idea
09:24<b_jonas>I'll try adding two waypoints forward and two backwards
09:24<@Rubidium>b_jonas: don't know specifics, but probably going back went closer to the destination quicker or so
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09:25<+glx>boekabart: ok your patch doesn't break my setup :)
09:26<+glx>but it adds a warning, The following environment variables were not found: $(OTTD_USEFUL)
09:27<b_jonas>or maybe I just shouldn't have the turnback at the middle of the route
09:28<b_jonas>the two turnbacks near the ends are needed in case all station platforms are full
09:29<b_jonas>can I use presignals for a station where trains enter and leave on the same side?
09:30<b_jonas>yes i can
09:30<b_jonas>this example shows how
09:30<b_jonas>okay, I'll try that
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09:35<boekabart>glx: yes, can we translate that warning somehow?
09:36<boekabart>(not that I know of)
09:36<+glx>well the warning is valid and harmless
09:36<+glx>but I don't like warnings
09:37<boekabart>are you pondering what i'm pondering?
09:37<@Rubidium>not committing it?
09:38<boekabart>Uh, I think so Brain, but this time, you wear the tutu.
09:39*glx checks if it's a problem if "treat warnings as errors" is enabled
09:39<boekabart>Is that default for release?
09:40<+glx>it used to be enabled :)
09:40<boekabart>and rightfully so
09:40<boekabart>we can always add it to ignored warnings
09:40<boekabart>*ugh* quick and dirty *uugh*
09:41<+glx>there's no warning code for this one :)
09:41<@Rubidium>can you? Or is that some project setting too? I only know the stuff in stdafx.h
09:44*boekabart is trying the 'existing deployments don't break' scenario too
09:44<@Rubidium> says you can't disable the warning
09:45<boekabart>indeed, so the question is, is it a 'treat warnings as errors' warning
09:45<@Rubidium>luckily the compile farm doesn't bother about MSVC warnings *or* failures/errors (it doesn't notify us)
09:47<@Rubidium>MSVC is very good in a) delivering (some) binaries on failure and doesn't know stderr
09:48<@Rubidium>which is why the link failure took 2 days before someone notified us
09:48<@Rubidium>although I'm still wondering why it failed to link
09:48<boekabart>supposedly, vs 10 will solve all this for us
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09:50<boekabart>i SAID supposedly!
09:50<+glx>ok the warning doesn't prevent compilation when warnings are treated as errors
09:50<@Rubidium>supposedly windows vista has/was going to have winfs
09:50<boekabart>glx: same here
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09:52<@Rubidium>let me say: don't install it on a working system, but run it in something virtualised
09:53<@Rubidium>uninstalling it breaks MSVC2005/2008
09:55<@Rubidium>and upgrading the project files doesn't work (at least in beta1)
09:55<+glx>it's so MS ;à
09:55<Sacro>Rubidium: longhorn was, vista wasn't
09:56<boekabart>Sacro: nice spin...
09:56<@Rubidium>Sacro: Vista's original codename, "Longhorn"
09:57<@Rubidium>but heh, they're only working on structured storage for like... 20 years
09:58<+glx>so should we commit FS#3269 or not?
09:59<@Rubidium>depends on how often *you* want to tell people it isn't harmful and it should be ignored and that adding it + ignoring the warning is better than not adding it
10:00<+glx>well even with this warning the result is 3>openttd - 0 erreur(s), 0 avertissement(s)
10:01<@Rubidium>on the forum?
10:01<@Rubidium>on the bug tracker?
10:01<boekabart>yes! on all!
10:01<boekabart>it's not a warning in the IDE warning-list
10:02<@Rubidium>does it end up in stderr in MSVC2010?
10:02<boekabart>no way to know until it's released
10:03<boekabart>but msvc2010 has completely different project files so ... not yet relevant anyway.
10:10<boekabart>Project : warning PRJ0018 : The following environment variables were not found:
10:10<boekabart>sounds like it's ignorable
10:10<@Rubidium>boekabart: only for a small percentage of 'users'
10:11<@Rubidium>most people will read it as "the error" for their failure to patch
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10:12<insulfrog>afternoon all
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10:13*insulfrog is playing an openttd game
10:13<boekabart>I mean, ignorable somehow
10:13<boekabart>but it seems not to be
10:13<boekabart>and it _does_ show in build warning list
10:14<@Rubidium>anyhow, the idea of the patch is good... just that it adds a pointless warning isn't :(
10:15<boekabart>a pre-build "set OTTD_USEFUL=%OTTD_USEFUL%" doesn't help
10:15<+glx>it's a project warning
10:19*boekabart has to go pick up a little girl from the daycare
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11:04<insulfrog>wb Pikka
11:04<andythenorth>yay, Pikka
11:05<andythenorth>Got production boosting and stockpiling working
11:05<andythenorth>might have some dodgy code though
11:05<Pikka>well done :)
11:09<andythenorth>For my next trick I have to learn to use the text reference stack in conjunction with cb 3A
11:09<andythenorth>or I end up with a bazillion strings for each industry
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11:48<Muxy>@seen luukland
11:48<@DorpsGek>Muxy: luukland was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 22 hours, 19 minutes, and 1 second ago: <Luukland> Muxy? Goulp?
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>the joy of people always missing each other ;)
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11:57<MyCatVerbs>Sex on a DOOR but OpenTTD builds fast.
11:57<MyCatVerbs>2 minutes 14 seconds on my laptop from scratch. ^^
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13:08<andythenorth>hmm hmm hmm
13:08<andythenorth>mmh hmm
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13:33<@Belugas>[13:16] <Pikka> what fun this business of fake-reversing trains is :D <--- try payment processing and customer requirements, now that is a hell lot more funny business..
13:33<@Belugas>like NOT!
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13:42<andythenorth>if you think that's fun, try writing nice text for industry windows
13:42<andythenorth>*that's* fun
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>i'd rather work on real reversing instead of fake reversing...
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r17779 /trunk/src/lang/ (3 files in 2 dirs):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: basque - 5 changes by Thadah
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changes by Petert
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 31 changes by nglekhoi
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13:50<andythenorth>Opinions please
13:50<andythenorth>I trust you guys more than I trust the forum bunnies
13:50<andythenorth>I need just enough text to explain things
13:50<andythenorth>And not so much that it looks complex
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13:53<Albert>since when can we stretch that window? D:
13:53-!-Albert is now known as Pikka
13:55<Pikka>I mean, the text part. or does it automatically expand for longer text?
13:56<andythenorth>Pikka: it just expands to fit my text?
13:56<andythenorth>I'm running recent nightly
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>whoa... i just thought Alberth was asking that question...
13:56<Pikka>I'd leave out the * part :P or say something like "Engineering supplies improve the chances of a production increase"
13:56<@Belugas>bunnies, funnies, newbies, stewpids
13:57<@Rubidium>multithreaded/multiprocess stew making?
13:58<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I wish ;)
13:59<andythenorth>Pikka: are you preferring the "don't tell the player everything" model of help text?
14:00<Pikka>I think it's a fine line, andy
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14:01<andythenorth>There's no game if you don't have to work it out :)
14:01<Pikka>you don't really need to explain /everything/ in game, but on the other hand you don't want to be george
14:01<Alberth>you can also publish such info in the download or at your site
14:02<Alberth>or in a manual :p
14:02<andythenorth>If I bit the bullet and learnt to use registers, I could worry less about explaining things to the player...
14:02<andythenorth>The current problem is they will only get a chance of an increase if cargo is waiting *at the end of the month*
14:03<Pikka>you also don't necessarily have to explain the precise mechanics of how it works, as long as players get the gist :P
14:03<andythenorth>I've simplified the text to your suggestion, it works fine
14:03<@Rubidium>but... isn't it "better" to just show a string of meaningless numbers? :)
14:04<andythenorth>I can do that too
14:04<andythenorth>I'll try it
14:04<andythenorth>right now
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14:04<Pikka>Rubidium: Prod: (15, 21, 0, 0, 0, 0), says the ECS glassworks!
14:04<Alberth>stopping accepting will soon get noticed by the players, not sure you need to spend 2 lines text on that
14:04<@Rubidium>would be fun to mix octal, decimal and hexadecimal in those strings
14:05<andythenorth>Engineering Supplies limit: 200 crates?
14:05<Alberth>or xxx/200 crates
14:05<andythenorth>Engineering Supplies limit: 200 crates *not currently accepting*
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14:05<andythenorth>"Cargo Waiting to be Processed" isn't under my control :(
14:05<frosch123>Alberth:stopping accepting will soon get noticed by the players, not sure you need to spend 2 lines text on that <- if the lines say "THIS IS INTENTIONAL, DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS", they are fine
14:05<andythenorth>Otherwise I could just stick (Max 200) on the end
14:06<Alberth>frosch123: :D
14:06<Alberth>would be enought for me :)
14:07<Pikka> wheee
14:08<andythenorth>Nice :)
14:08<Pikka>andy, you could do it like TaI, have a line which says no supplies / how fast the supplies are being consumed / stockpile limit looming :)
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14:10<StarLionIsaac>TaI defines industries too? I thought it was just a town building set
14:10<frosch123>you should explore more about the meaning of "TaI"
14:11<frosch123>especially the "I" part :p
14:11<StarLionIsaac>I do know that, I just never noticed any changes to industries before
14:11<StarLionIsaac>that might have something to do with the fact I usually play with all the ECS vectors loaded though
14:11<Pikka>TaI is more than one grf
14:11<Pikka>and only the houses have been released :P
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14:12<Luukland>ladies, may I ask why max companies is set to 15?
14:12<StarLionIsaac>that would explain it
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14:13<@Belugas>to what number you would like to have them, Luukland?
14:14<Luukland>20 if possible
14:14<Luukland>Or 18 will also suffice
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: the problem i noticed with PBI was, that as long as it says "near stockpile limit", i have no information anymore about the speed of processing
14:14<@Belugas>1) problems with the colours
14:14<@Belugas>2) problems with comapnies references in the code -> bitmap values -> 16 bits
14:15<Luukland>Ah yes of course :P
14:15<@Belugas>3) lots of savegames bumps to handle
14:15<frosch123>Luukland: because there are 4 bits for storing the owner of certain tiles, and 1 is needed for town owner/no owner
14:15<@Belugas>4) etc etc
14:15<Luukland>dang, so raising it would cost a lot of work or can't be done completely?
14:15<@Belugas>and what frosch123 said, indeed
14:16<@Belugas>people will NEVER be satisfied, no matter what is given
14:16<Luukland>If you give a finger
14:16<@Belugas>hey guys, why not 32?
14:16<Luukland>we will take the hand :p
14:16<andythenorth>Pikka: if I get extra friendly with the text stack, I might do it like TaI
14:16<andythenorth>probably a future enhancement though :D
14:17<@Rubidium>Belugas: infinite ofcourse...
14:17<@Rubidium>it shouldn't even be limited by memory
14:17<Luukland>Or what a fiberglass bandwith can handle :p
14:17<Luukland>100mbit 1,2kb/s a client :p
14:17<Luukland>So thats around 800 clients xD
14:18<Pikka>plz to make 1048576*1048576 maps too
14:18<Luukland>or even more :p
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14:18<sawtooth>hmm...i wonder why the recent trunk releases eat up 100% of my cpu
14:18<andythenorth>home time
14:18<Luukland>Anyways, thx for the answer, pls next time hold the sarcasm Belugas, dont be such an ass to ppl who just ask normal questions
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14:19<andythenorth>no more work for me today
14:19<andythenorth>except the nfo kind
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14:19<frosch123>sawtooth: what is recent? since r17776?
14:19<@Belugas>? sarcasm? me? ho no not at all...
14:19<@Belugas>did I?
14:19<sawtooth>frosch123: i think even a bit before that
14:19<frosch123>since you added lots of noais in game?
14:20<sawtooth>using none. cpu is even pegged at the main menu
14:20<frosch123>since you play on a 2k x 2k map?
14:20<@Rubidium>sawtooth: what OS?
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14:20<@Rubidium>sawtooth: is the music running?
14:20<StarLionIsaac>linux might explain it there - it always runs at near to 100% on any Ubuntu box I've run OTTD on
14:20<sawtooth>0.7.3 doesn't hog cpu for me
14:21<StarLionIsaac>I wouldn't know about that, I only run the nightlies
14:22<frosch123>main menu uses 10% on my 5 years old machine
14:22<sawtooth>i did remove all the newgrf's and reset to default settings. window/fulscreen doesn't make a difference either
14:22<sawtooth>wonder if i should try with sfx off
14:22<frosch123>(though i never know what 10% means with HT)
14:23<@Rubidium>sawtooth: can you find since which revision it became much slower?
14:23<@Rubidium>frosch123: usually 10% of one 'core', i.e. I've had > 100% some times
14:24<sawtooth>Rubidium: i could try...might take a while though :)
14:24<@Rubidium>what video backend are you using?
14:24<@Rubidium>allegro or sdl?
14:24<sawtooth>where is that setting at?
14:24<@Rubidium>it autodetects it; run with -d driver=1
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14:27<sawtooth>using sdl
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14:28<@Rubidium>hmm, then I don't have a clue
14:28<StarLionIsaac>out of curiosity, is there any significant difference to using allegro?
14:28<@Rubidium>good luck bisecting then
14:29<sawtooth>cpu at main menu in 0.7.3 is 6-11% or so
14:29<sawtooth>i guess i'll have to test a bunch of revisions then
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14:31<@Rubidium>sawtooth: bisecting is usually the best approach
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14:34<@Rubidium>StarLionIsaac: allegro doesn't like resizing to 'any' resolution, sdl does; sdl doesn't do midi, allegro does (or can do)
14:35<@Rubidium>and sdl is a few percent faster than allegro
14:36<StarLionIsaac>ah, I see
14:36<StarLionIsaac>useful to know if I ever want to make things harder deliberatly, basically
14:37<@Rubidium>with allegro you can run OpenTTD in dosbox though
14:37<StarLionIsaac>I guess that might help if you need to run the DOS version... I can't see myself running it on an emulated DOS within Linux though
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the mac users, if (dar)wine doesn't work :p
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14:40<StarLionIsaac>actually, wine seems to handle it pretty well, and darwine, as I understand it is wine ported to OSX, so it should handle it similarly
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14:44<StarLionIsaac>I know, should being the operative, I'm assuming that since under wine the past two weeks nightlies have worked on a five year old laptop, they'll work on a recent mac
14:44<StarLionIsaac>probably a flawed premise, but I've never touched a mac, let alone used one
14:46<Prof_Frink>If only there was someone employed by Codeweavers here...
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15:12<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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15:13<Nite_Owl>Hello andythenorth & insulfrog
15:17-!-andythenorth [~andy@] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
15:19<Nite_Owl>was it my breath ??
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15:20<insulfrog>dunno :p
15:22<MyCatVerbs>Guten tag, Andy.
15:22<MyCatVerbs>Oh, wait, lost him. Oops, fail.
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16:02<insulfrog>wb welshdragon
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16:12<frosch123>did you change your timezone?
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16:14<insulfrog>g2g, cyas
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16:16<sawtooth>the change that is causing 100% cpu usage on linux was introduced way back in 17140 as part of an update in the sound code
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16:16<sawtooth>well, causing 100% on my setup at least...
16:16<StarLionIsaac>interesting.... I think I'm going to check this, is it that revision it starts, or that's the last one it doesn't happen on?
16:17<sawtooth>where it starts
16:17<sawtooth>17139 was the last good revision
16:17<sawtooth>the issue goes away if i use openttd -s null
16:17<StarLionIsaac>I'm fairly certain for me it's been before then, but it has been a while
16:18<frosch123>do you have a modified or similiar? some sound replacement?
16:18<sawtooth>not that i'm aware of :)
16:19<StarLionIsaac>the latter in my case, but for that old a revision that shouldn't matter
16:19<StarLionIsaac>I think it's before the option to use openSFX from the menu
16:19<frosch123>the ttd dos version or the ttd win version of
16:19<frosch123>17140 was before opensfx
16:19<StarLionIsaac>both, but I use dos (german) by default because that's what it picks up first
16:20<frosch123>that's the graphic set, the sound set is choosen independently
16:20<sawtooth>r17140 -Change: allow higher sample rate and higher quality samples. Based on work by orudge.
16:21<StarLionIsaac>if I grabbed a fresh install of the current trunk, back up and remove my current config, and start up, it'll pick up from dos (DE) first, then dos (ENG) then Win
16:21<StarLionIsaac>then after that, OpenSFX
16:21<StarLionIsaac>but for one that old, I'd guess it'll pick up the dos (DE) one, since that's what it seems to find first
16:21<frosch123>there is only one dos sound set, de/non-de is only graphics
16:22<StarLionIsaac>alright, my bad then, so dos then
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16:28<StarLionIsaac>I can confirm it's revision 17140 where it starts using all available CPU on linux
16:28<StarLionIsaac>and it doesn't appear matter which sound set is loaded, either
16:28<@Rubidium>StarLionIsaac: does -s sdl:hz=11025 fix the issue?
16:28<sawtooth>StarLionIsaac: that fixed it for me. something about the sample size...
16:29<StarLionIsaac>it does, but the CPU usage is still significantly higher than r17139
16:30<StarLionIsaac>approx 20-30% more usage, at a guess and a glance at Conky
16:32<@Rubidium>don't see a reason for the 20-30% extra usage though
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16:33<StarLionIsaac>my guess may not be entirely accurate, since OpenTTD periodically dipped off the list of CPU using processes
16:33<StarLionIsaac>plus, it was just a glance. I'm still fairly certain that there's some extra CPU usage between that suggested fix and the previous revision
16:33<sawtooth>i tried setting the hz to 22050 and that seemed to be normal as well
16:34<@Rubidium>what does 48000 do?
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16:35<sawtooth>high usage as well
16:35<StarLionIsaac>for me too
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16:36<StarLionIsaac>looking more carefully, setting it to 11025 makes it peak at 80% of the CPU usage, just before the main menu appears, but after that comes back down to about 40% usage
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16:36<Migran>Normal version OTTD can be run in a mode 32bpp?
16:37<frosch123>hehe, -s sdl:hz=33000 has simliar effect to me :p
16:37<StarLionIsaac>Migran: Have a look on the OpenTTD Wiki to find out how to do it exactly
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16:38<frosch123>StarLionIsaac: before the main menu appears ottd is loading and searching for files, high cpu usage is to be expected then
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16:39<StarLionIsaac>I guessed as such, as every version of OTTD I've run does the same, however, the more recent nightlies, this week's in particular, are peaking at 90% instead at that point, instead of the 80% I'm seeing with 17139 and 17140
16:39<planetmaker>what does r12000 or so give you?
16:40<frosch123>r12000? what's that?
16:40<StarLionIsaac>planetmaker: give me a few moments to checkout and compile, and I'll be able to tell you
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16:41<@Rubidium>frosch123: sdl:hz=33000 has a similar effect for me too
16:45<@Rubidium>hmm.. fill_sound_buffer uses *more* CPU cycles with 44100 than with 33000, but with 33000 cycles it's using more CPU
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16:45<@Rubidium>so something happens in SDL
16:46<StarLionIsaac>planetmaker: about 50% usage when OTTD starts up, and about 20% usage on the main menu, if that's what you meant by what it gives me
16:47<planetmaker>yeah. I wondered about how it fares compared to recent nightlies
16:48<StarLionIsaac>does suggest just how much extra there is now
16:48<StarLionIsaac>also, I'm going to have to re-do my grflist, because r12000 just cleared all the bananas downloaded grfs from my list
16:49<StarLionIsaac>I need to keep backups more often
16:50<frosch123>just open your last autosave, and create a preset from the grfs used there
16:50<StarLionIsaac>The last autosave is from a scenario with it's own list though
16:50<StarLionIsaac>the last game using the closest to that list, doesn't load because it's from my pack, which I've slightly buggered
16:52<@Rubidium>if it doesn't find the bananas newgrfs it's 'obvious' it's faster, after all it doesn't do everything the newer revision does
16:52<StarLionIsaac>Rubidium: all it did was remove the bananas ones from my list stored in the config file, it's not done anything else
16:54<@Rubidium>if it removes them from the config file it hasn't found them (and thus read their name)
16:54<@Rubidium>some 'profiling' results:
16:54<@Rubidium>the first number is the number of CPU cycles for fill_sound_buffer/MxMixSamples, i.e. the mixing in OpenTTD
16:55<@Rubidium>with sdl:hz=33000 the sys time is, well... just huge
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16:56<@Rubidium> <- used to 'profile'
16:57<@Rubidium>can you 'reproduce' this increase in sys time between hz=11025 and hz=44100?
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16:59<@Rubidium>for what it's worth, allegro behaves 'fine' with hz=33000
16:59<_ln>i heard the Halle (Saale) team won the ice hockey game.
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17:00<StarLionIsaac>I can reproduce it most likely, if I can figure out why patch refuses to work today
17:01<StarLionIsaac>it would help if I remembered to put -p0, I guess... today isn't going well for me
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17:04<StarLionIsaac>Rubidium: I assume the results go directly to the console, or is a debug option needed? just checking
17:04<@Rubidium>go directly to the console
17:05<@Rubidium>as long as you don't forget to use time :)
17:05<StarLionIsaac>should have results shortly then, please be patient while my ancient computer creaks into life once more
17:05<StarLionIsaac>well, not that ancient, but definatly old
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17:16<frosch123>sys 0m1.228s and sys 0m12.273s for me :)
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17:17<StarLionIsaac>hmm, question - I'm missing the real/user/sys parts on mine
17:17<frosch123>so debian and gentoo agree this time
17:17<frosch123>you forgot "time" ?
17:17<StarLionIsaac>uh... I may have misinterpreted that as 'leave it for some time'
17:17<StarLionIsaac>what exactly was it meant to mean
17:18<frosch123>time executes a command and measures the used time
17:18<StarLionIsaac>so, start it with "openttd time -s sdl:hz-44100" ?
17:18<frosch123>no, "time openttd -s sdl:ht=44100"
17:18<@Rubidium>time openttd -s sdl:hz=44100
17:19<StarLionIsaac>ah, gotcha... here goes again
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17:22<StarLionIsaac>Rubidium: Here's the results from me:
17:22<@Rubidium>hz=.... not hz=-
17:23<@Rubidium>hz=.... not hz-...
17:23<StarLionIsaac>gah, I might get it right yet
17:28<@Belugas>if you ask me, i prefer rz to hz...
17:28<frosch123>user 18 -> 1 :o, is it everytime like that?
17:28<StarLionIsaac>Rubidium: try this, maybe I've got it right this time
17:30<@Rubidium>the first debug line actually belongs to the 11025 hz case, right?
17:31<StarLionIsaac>uh, yes... minor C&P error I made there, sorry
17:31<@Rubidium>can you try the allegro sound driver, -s allegro (you might need to install allegro + reconfigure and recompile)
17:31<StarLionIsaac>if both sdl and allegro are present, which will configure pick up and use?
17:31<@Rubidium>StarLionIsaac: both
17:32<@Rubidium>at runtime sdl is prefered IIRC
17:32<StarLionIsaac>ah, then in that case, does anyone know the name of the ubuntu package for allegro
17:33<@Rubidium>liballegro4.2-dev ?
17:33<@Rubidium>+ the same but without -dev
17:33<@Rubidium>although that's probably automatically selected
17:33<StarLionIsaac>indeed it is, I just didn't want to run through the entire list of packages again tonight
17:34<@Rubidium>StarLionIsaac: apt-cache search <keyword>
17:34<StarLionIsaac>never knew about that one
17:35<@Rubidium>or in aptitude /allegro to start searching, n to go to the next hit
17:35<StarLionIsaac>I've never got on well with aptitude, I prefer to use apt-get if I know the package, or Synaptic if I don't
17:35<StarLionIsaac>or Adept, if I'm in KDE, which isn't often
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17:43<StarLionIsaac>recompiled with allegro installed, except it doesn't get started. Debug output says Failed to set up Allegro sound
17:43<StarLionIsaac>hmm, no restart needed after installed allegro, is there?
17:43<@Rubidium>shouldn't be needed
17:44<StarLionIsaac>I tried to run it with openttd -s allegro
17:44<StarLionIsaac>nothing else, except the time
17:44<@Rubidium>bah :(
17:44<@Rubidium>why doesn't allegro start
17:45<StarLionIsaac>sadly, my psychic link to my local linux expert died this morning, so I can't help there
17:47<@Rubidium>what error does give?
17:50<StarLionIsaac>more details, give me a moment to get them from the terminal
17:51<StarLionIsaac>this is all it gets, it doesn't even manage to draw the window for OTTD
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17:52<@Rubidium>that's because it aborts quite early
17:52<@Rubidium>but not being able to set alsa properties isn't a good sign
17:52<sawtooth>was there allegro stuff fixed after 17140?
17:53<StarLionIsaac>this is using the current nightly, by the way... does that make much difference?
17:53<@Rubidium>sawtooth: not that I'm aware of
17:53<andythenorth>Is it time to attempt some register code in nfo, or is that for another day?
17:53<sawtooth>i got the same error as StarLionIsaac regarding it not being able to open the midi device
17:53<@Rubidium>StarLionIsaac: nope
17:54<@Rubidium>andythenorth: it's always time to attempt something
17:54<@Rubidium>StarLionIsaac: is pulseaudio running?
17:54<sawtooth>i do have pulseaudio running here
17:54<StarLionIsaac>possibly, and likely
17:55<StarLionIsaac>correction: yes, it's definatly running
17:55<@Rubidium>can you kill it?
17:55<Sacro>< pa
17:55<Sacro><3 even
17:55<StarLionIsaac>not without losing all sound entirely, something I'd rather avoid
17:56<StarLionIsaac>uh... right, now how exactly does that work
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18:00<@Rubidium>StarLionIsaac: the other possibility is compiling a newer (4.4? allegro)
18:02<StarLionIsaac>all I have in the available repositories is 4.2, so unless there's an addable repo with it, I'll have to compile allegro itself as well
18:02<@Rubidium>hmm, which version of allegro got installed?
18:02<StarLionIsaac>4.2... and I'd rather not compile allegro myself, I don't think I've got enough space
18:02<StarLionIsaac>at least not on this box
18:03<@Rubidium>StarLionIsaac: I need to know the 3rd digit
18:03<@Rubidium>I fear it's 2 (3 might fix the issue)
18:03<StarLionIsaac>apt-cache search allegro just lists 4.2, I can check the detailed description to see if it has one as well
18:04<@Rubidium>allegro-config --version
18:04<StarLionIsaac>4.2.2 then
18:07<@Rubidium>bah... package maintainers haven't updated the package :(
18:07<@Rubidium>but... is stopping pulseaudio just to test something really a problem?
18:07<@Rubidium>does it break that much?
18:07<StarLionIsaac>this is Ubuntu Jaunty, if Ubuntu Karmic has an updated one, then wait until the 29th, when Karmic is released
18:07<StarLionIsaac>it doesn't break as such, just prevent anything from making any sound at all
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18:12<TrueBrain>JUST LEAVE ME ALL!
18:12<TrueBrain>I DONT NEED YOU!
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18:14<TrueBrain>hmm .. I liked this channel more a few moment ago
18:14<Sacro>you're not the only one
18:15<TrueBrain>you do understand that should result in a certain event happening, the BOFH speaking inside me, right?
18:15<Sacro>oh TrueBrain *hugs*
18:16<TrueBrain>this is what is called 'conditioning' ;)
18:16<Sacro>you know we love you
18:17<Sacro>this is more like 'grooming'
18:18<@Rubidium>StarLionIsaac: then I've got no clue how to find out what's the (exact) cause of the problem
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18:26<andythenorth>ach, bedtime
18:26<andythenorth>good night
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18:40<Terkhen>good night
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18:41<Eddi|zuHause>that's the first time ever i remember rubidium leaving...
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>hm, the logs show like 5 more times...
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 17 00:00:28 2009