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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-10-18

---Logopened Sun Oct 18 00:00:34 2009
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01:18<mynetdude>I have a couple questions and would like some advice on how to deal with trains on multiple tracks/multiple station platforms and routing. I suppose that's what waypoints are for, butt they still seem to get mixed up no matter what I do and sometimes trains take the high road or low road, the short way the long way, etc is there any way to curtail this nonsense?
01:31<@Rubidium>might be a problem with signalling; giving advice without knowing what's wrong is quite hard (if not impossible) though
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01:34<mynetdude>ok hold on
01:39<mynetdude>well all my signals are two way I have entry/exit signals at junctions where a station is present or single track that has a station at the end
01:40<mynetdude>maybe I should post my file so it can be looked at when conveinent for someone
01:40<mynetdude>actually... is it possible to control which way a train goes at all times? if it isn't then my question about the problem is moot
01:43<@Rubidium>then start by making the signals one way :)
01:45<@Rubidium>read more about them at http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals / http://uwe.s2000.ws/ttdx/signal/
01:46<mynetdude>I'm aware of one way signals... but that means I'd have to make "turnaround" tracks so they can flip to the other side and go the other direction otherwise I'll have trains following each other all day
01:51<mynetdude>what about those one way sigs that can be passed on the back side then they aren't truly one way anymore?
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01:58<Eddi|zuHause>every signal has its uses, but also its problems
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01:59<mynetdude>well I realize that, it isn't perfect
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02:00<mynetdude>as long as trains continue to pick whatever track they like another train going the other way will get stuck on a reserved signal block
02:01<Eddi|zuHause>but if you say you have problems with twoway signals, the most likely cause is the setting "treat red twoway as end of line"
02:02<mynetdude>I don't think I have that option, never seen it
02:02<Eddi|zuHause>i believe it's only available from the console
02:03<Eddi|zuHause>"pf.yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol" or something
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02:04<mynetdude>oh
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02:04<mynetdude>so I don't want a two way red treated as end of line... that makes no sense
02:05<Eddi|zuHause>"end of line" means "don't ever consider going there"
02:05<mynetdude>I thought the idea was if I had a layout where a train wanted a specific reservation couldn't get it would pick a different reservation so it could continue to its destination without getting stuck otherwise when two trains reserve a section only one will make it in and the other will stop at the red because a train is already in that block
02:05<Eddi|zuHause>means "search alternative route even if it is much longer"
02:06<mynetdude>so I DO want to treat all reds as EOL that's bad if I want trains to wait for a platform at exit/entry signals
02:07<mynetdude>I'll just live with it... its a thought so thanks :)
02:07<Eddi|zuHause>usually you (meaning I) want them not to be treated as EOL, but with a large penalty instead
02:08<Eddi|zuHause>just flip the setting, and see if your trains behave better then, you can always revert to the savegame in case it does not work
02:09<mynetdude>I understand... but if the reds are treated as EOL then trains are going to just turn around as soon as they hit the red signal because its treated as EOL and I don't want this when they are waiting for a platform, at intersections this isn't a problem because a train can then be rerouted on another track (every intersection I designed goes somewhere else and leads to their destination at some point on the map).
02:11<Eddi|zuHause>it's on by default, and nobody listens to me that the general newbie rather wants it off ;)
02:13<mynetdude>alright well let me try it, can't hurt
02:13<mynetdude>how can I find out what the command is?
02:13<Eddi|zuHause>list_cmds and list_settings or so
02:13<mynetdude>ok thanks :)
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02:15<mynetdude>Eddi|zuHause those worked, but I can't scroll up in console????
02:15<mynetdude>all i see is network commands
02:15<mynetdude>err settings
02:16<Eddi|zuHause>then try "list_settings pf.yapf.rail"
02:16<Eddi|zuHause>the setting names also correspond to the ones found in openttd.cfg
02:17<mynetdude>oh! ok didn't know that
02:18<Eddi|zuHause>and usually console scrolling is with shift+arrow
02:19<mynetdude>file doesn't exist... or I have no clue where to look i checked the openttd folder
02:20<Eddi|zuHause>the places to look for are mentioned in the readme
02:20<mynetdude>I see a bunch of settings for first red
02:20<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, two penalties and one for eol
02:21<mynetdude>pf.yapf.rail.firstred_twoway_eol=on
02:21<mynetdude>the others are penalty like you said
02:21<mynetdude>what do penalties do exactly?
02:22<Eddi|zuHause>they tell the pathfinder how much detour they should consider for going around it
02:22<Eddi|zuHause>one tile detour == penalty of 100
02:23<mynetdude>so the higher the detour the better?
02:23<Eddi|zuHause>i gtg
02:23<mynetdude>sorry, I hope this be my last question how do I tell it to switch that setting "off"
02:23<mynetdude>ok tyvm for your help :)
02:23<Eddi|zuHause>with "set <setting> off"
02:24<@Rubidium>set sleep on
02:25<mynetdude>telling me its an unknown setting
02:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'm actually going out today...
02:25<Eddi|zuHause>mynetdude: then you mistyped it
02:25<mynetdude>well its GOOD to get out :)
02:25<Eddi|zuHause>check for _ and . mixup
02:34<mynetdude>wow it hates me... cuz putting set pf.yapf.rail.firstred_twoway_eol isn't liked
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02:35<mynetdude>blah found the problem
02:42<mynetdude>works a lot better
02:42<mynetdude>noticed some trains don't even turn around anymore either some still do and take odd routes but as long as they are going where they are supposed to be it works
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03:23<boekabart>good morning vietnam!
03:23<boekabart>(and the rest of the world too)
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03:49<Terkhen>good morning
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03:53<andythenorth>morning
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04:59<Rhamphoryncus>oi. Power station I'm using getting closed with FIRS
05:00<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: FIRS is a work in progress :)
05:03<Rhamphoryncus>apparently :)
05:03<Rhamphoryncus>And I've seen it reported before, so I'm not too worried. Just griping :)
05:04<Rhamphoryncus>more annoyed at the pathing signal issues I continue to have
05:04<hickop>hi , how can i increase my font size in game ? when i set small_size = 16 it increase the area the text is but not the font
05:05<Alberth>also change the used font
05:06<hickop>i did change the fonts to terminus
05:06<Alberth>at least at Linux, a font also has a height. this must match with the small_size that you set.
05:07<Alberth>as a warning, adding support for changing font size is a work in progress, you will find that at least half the windows do not resize properly
05:08<hickop>ok
05:08<Alberth>(and if you use 0.7.x there is no support :) )
05:09<hickop>i use latest svn
05:09<Alberth>ok
05:09<hickop>but whatever size i set it just resize the input boxes or buttons, not the font :/
05:10<Alberth>I do something like http://paste.openttd.org/217442
05:11<Alberth>notice the corresponding values of the *_size and the B* in the font path
05:12<hickop>ok , seams to work with verdana
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05:13<Alberth>expect loads of window glitches
05:14<hickop>at least i wont get headaches reading those tiny fonts anymore ^^
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05:20<Alberth>does a primary industry with more than one cargo being produced exist (ie an industry where you can cheat with the production level of more than one cargo)?
05:20<andythenorth>farms?
05:20<Alberth>doh
05:20<andythenorth>produce livestock and grain :D
05:20<Alberth>thanks
05:20<andythenorth>here to help
05:20<andythenorth>;)
05:21<andythenorth>Meanwhile, designing production for processing industries is a lot more complicated than I thought
05:21<andythenorth>Who's idea was this anyway :|
05:22<andythenorth>I remember, it was mine :P
05:23<andythenorth>Nice to see that players have for themselves reinvented what FISH means :)
05:24<andythenorth>Although they have invented for themselves a possible meaning which I put in the very first post about the set :D
05:24<andythenorth>nothing like a good recursive acronym
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05:27<Alberth>so you are making your own life difficult with the processing industry :)
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05:28<Alberth>if users can re-invent the meaning, it looks like a good name ;)
05:37<hickop>is there a way to always have the transparency window active when i create/load a game ?
05:38<Yexo>good morning
05:39<Yexo>hickop: not without changing the source code
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05:41<@Rubidium>Yexo: you can teach a monkey to open the window when loading/creating a game
05:41<Yexo>nice idea :)
05:42<hickop>what if you have a cat and no monkey ?
05:42<@Rubidium>with hypnosis make the cat think it's a monkey
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05:48<Alberth>good morning
05:52<TrueBrain>Ammler: well, it is an open source version of dune2, this includes the security question of course. Else it would be a modifidated version of dune2 ;)
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06:07<andythenorth>uh oh, I've invented production code that is really really definitely going to need registers *and* the text stack
06:07<andythenorth>grr
06:07<andythenorth>both of those things scare me
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06:59<Steve^>Why is cargodest not in the main download?
07:02<Steve^>Last merge from trunk was at the end of 2008, so I'm a little worried about the features I'll lose by downloading cargodest
07:03<@Rubidium>what about: it's not finished and it's buggy?
07:04<Steve^>what's the plan to fix that?
07:05<@Rubidium>there isn't any
07:05<Steve^>the wiki lists a single known problem and it isn't a serious one
07:08<@Rubidium>Steve^: http://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=&project=1&type[]=5&sev[]=&pri[]=&due[]=&reported[]=&cat[]=&status[]=open&percent[]=&opened=&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=&do=index
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07:15<planetmaker>Steve^: certainly not every single problem gets put into a _wiki_
07:15<planetmaker>if - at all - you should go through the bug tracker.
07:15<planetmaker>but even that will not be comprehensive as it is not an "official" version
07:15<Steve^>sure, but the wiki doesn't exactly scream that it is unstable
07:16<Steve^>it actually looked more positive than I expected
07:16<planetmaker>Steve^: what purpose would have a sentence saying "this patch is unstable"?
07:17<planetmaker>it's a development branch after all. Work in progress
07:17<Steve^>maybe it would inspire me to test it
07:17<planetmaker>and not a release version
07:17<planetmaker>all patches are - kind of per definition - work in progress
07:17<Steve^>This patch is unstable. Please download the latest version here and submit bugs here.
07:18<planetmaker>that's the default, isn't it?
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07:19*Rubidium wonders where he said unstable, but okay... nevertheless, what good is testing a patch/branch that has more or less been abandoned by its creator?
07:19<planetmaker>indeed
07:20<planetmaker>and no-one said "unstable" anywhere. I guess that's the point here, Rubidium :-)
07:20<planetmaker>My point, though, is: patches need testing by default.
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07:22<Steve^>you said it was buggy
07:22<Steve^>everything has bugs, but buggy implies that it affects the playability
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07:38<Chris_Booth>Rubidium: i added comments to FS#3271
07:39<@Rubidium>so it's very likely that it's already fixed
07:39<Chris_Booth>i can test it in lastest nightly
07:39<Chris_Booth>i am sure it hasnt
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07:45<Chris_Booth>Rubidium: yeah i am going to close report it has been fixed
07:48<@Rubidium>I hope this teaches to try to reproduce in the latest nightly before reporting it :)
07:51<Chris_Booth>I have learnt nothing
07:51<Chruker>nevar!
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08:15<Ammler>Chris_Booth: also planetmaker mentioned the fix ;-)
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09:03<_ln>what are the possible consequences in Germany for a motorist who doesn't stop in front of a zebra crossing with pedestrians about to cross the street?
09:04<Alberth>nicely on-topic
09:04<_ln>germany has always been on-topic here.
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09:18<hickop>i made some TL8 trains , but they never go for servicing. here is my service line: http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/306/servicev.png, what is wrong ?
09:20<andythenorth>anyone want to go on an nfo Text adventure?
09:20<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=45537
09:21<andythenorth>*may be misleading ;)
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09:21<@Rubidium>hickop: basically the path signals (FS#2955)
09:22<hickop>Rubidium: even with normal signals they wont go to the depot
09:23<@Rubidium>then the pathfinder penalty is more than 16 straight non-signaled tiles; corners/(red) signals have a higher penalty. Also a train running on the track causes a penalty
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09:24<@Rubidium>besides that there's also the setting that disables automatic servicing when breakdowns are turned off
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09:26<hickop>pathfinder penalty ?
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09:35<Alberth>The pathfinder finds the route for the trains. It assigns penalty points to 'obstacles', such as signs, sharp corners, etc. Together with the distance needed to travel, it decides the best path.
09:36<Alberth>ie it will avoid a sharp corner, unless it is very much shorter
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09:36<Alberth>(or unless there is no other route :) )
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09:39<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17795 /trunk/src/ (cargopacket.cpp cargopacket.h station_base.h vehicle_base.h): -Codechange: split cargolist into one for vehicles and one for stations.
09:40<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17796 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Move drawing of the industry info to its own function.
09:43<hickop>so my trains will never go for service unless i put a depot right on the track ?
09:47<hickop>hooo i think trains takes my depot as a 90° turn, and i forbid that, that explains it !
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09:53<fjb>_ln: 50€ penalty and 4 points (with 18 points accumulated you are losing your licence).
09:56<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17797 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use parameters of new function, introduce constants for hardcoded numbers.
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09:58<_ln>fjb: thanks. and is there an actual risk of getting caught doing that?
09:58<fjb>_ln: Yes.
09:58<_ln>ok. cool.
09:59<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17798 /trunk/src/ (industry_gui.cpp window_gui.h): -Codechange: Introduce new constant WD_PAR_VSEP_WIDE for large amount of space between text.
09:59<fjb>_ln: http://www.kfz.net/bussgeldkatalog/
10:01<_ln>over here, no penalty, and i doubt the police has even ever stopped anyone for that.
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10:05<fjb>_ln: There were cases where a driver hat to pay the penalty when driving over the zebra crossing behind the pedestrians which where still on the crossing without slowing down.
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10:07<_ln>nice
10:07<Eddi|zuHause><_ln> what are the possible consequences in Germany for a motorist who doesn't stop in front of a zebra crossing with pedestrians about to cross the street? <- i'd guess it's the same as cutting someone's right of way at a stop sign
10:08<SpComb>possible consequences include driving over them
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>but germany probably has one of the most regulated traffic systems in the world
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10:11<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r17799 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Codechange: industry view window uses pure nested widgets.
10:11<Eddi|zuHause> <fjb> _ln: 50€ penalty and 4 points (with 18 points accumulated you are losing your licence). <- the site you linked to says 80€
10:12<_ln>on a finnish zebra crossing you cannot really assume anyone to stop unless you have stepped on the street and they would collide with you otherwise. even then, the driver may choose to just drive around you on the left lane.
10:14<_ln>there are some rare exceptions, but that's the normal way of things.
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>actually, cutting someone on a stop sign is cheaper, 50€ and 3 points
10:17<_ln>one group within the rare exceptions are cars with yellow stars and the letter "D" on their license plate.
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10:19<_ln>do those earned points expire sooner or later?
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10:21<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there are (expensive) seminars you can take to reduce the points, if you get close to the limit, and they expire when you got no points during 2 years
10:21<SpComb>usually when I'm trying to cross a street I tend to assume that I'm in no hurry and just wait for the cars to drive past
10:21<SpComb>it's kind of annoying when someone then stops
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10:25<_ln>SpComb: and typically it's the last car of a long queue who stops, and with all the braking and pedestring looking is-he-really-going-to-stop, it would have been quicker for everyone not to stop.
10:26<dikzak>hi, i'm trying to play openttd over the e-net with a friend, but we can't get it to work, i did portforward and it should work, any idea what's wrong?
10:26<SpComb>_ln: or another car is going in the opposite direction and doesn't seem to be stopping
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>that's the benefit of clear rules. because germans will actually insist on their right to pass
10:28<dikzak>ehrm, help?
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>dikzak: "it doesn't work" is no error description
10:28<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17800 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: first steps into making CargoList a template
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>in 95% of the cases it's port forwarding or firewall
10:30<Alberth>dikzak: you need to open both TCP and UDP
10:30<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17801 /trunk/src/ (cargopacket.cpp cargopacket.h): -Codechange: for StationCargoLists the 'loaded_at_xy' does not matter when merging CargoPackets
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10:31<_ln>it's also terribly common that on a street with two lanes to the same direction, when a car actually stops in front of the zebra, the bonehead driving the other lane will not stop.
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10:32<_ln>although stopping is always mandatory in that case (unless there are traffic lights).
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10:33<dikzak>Alberth: i have, it says my server is offline...
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>zebra on multi-lane roads? you should fire the traffic planner
10:33<SpComb>_ln: yes, and that's where people die
10:34<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: unfortunately common, in Helsinki there's a couple places where there's a big 'ol zebra crossing across four lanes of traffic and a tram line or something equally ridiculous
10:34<Alberth>you see network traffic at your computer? did you disable the firewall for that port?
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10:35<SpComb>(without any lights)
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10:38<_ln>is it even true that in .de you could write down the license plate of a non-stopper and report that to the police and get a penalty for him/her?
10:38<dikzak>Alberth: how should i 'see' traffic, and my firewall is disabled
10:39<Alberth>LEDs at the back of your machine or at your router?
10:40<dikzak>Alberth: only all the time, so that won't tell me much
10:40<dikzak>Alberth: but nvm, i'll try it again some other time
10:40<Alberth>so how does it not work?
10:40<Alberth>did your friend use your IP address?
10:41<KenjiE20><Webster> Server at a62-251-101-217.adsl.xs4all.nl:3979 is not up (timed out) <-- clearly not forwarded quite right
10:41<dikzak>Alberth: yes
10:43<Alberth>just in case: you need to enable forwarding at your router.
10:43<fjb>_ln: Yes, if you have enough witnesses.
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10:43<dikzak>Alberth: i have...
10:43<dikzak>Alberth: nopt the first time i portforwarded...
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10:43<Alberth>ok, just making sure
10:46<dikzak>ah, crap, i'm trying to make an ai(just following the tut on the wiki), but it doesn't show up in-game :-/
10:50<dikzak>help?
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10:52<Alberth>(04:29:24 PM) Eddi|zuHause: dikzak: "it doesn't work" is no error description <-- that still holds, you don't provide any information to examine
10:53<Alberth>andythenorth: do you know about this warning? dbg: [grf] [heqs__heavy_equipment_set_.0.5c/heqs.grf:2774] NewSpriteGroup (Deterministic): Invalid pseudo sprite length 12 (expected 14)!
10:53<dikzak>Alberth: what part of 'it doesn't show up in-game' don't you understand? i put it in the ai folder, and it just doesnt show up in the ai list
10:54<andythenorth>Alberth: looks like I miscounted some bytes some where. 0.5e is the current release, 0.5c is unsupported
10:54<andythenorth>however if the same error is reproducible with 0.5e I'll fix it
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10:56<Alberth>dikzak: basically, you say 'something at my computer is wrong'. My remote sensing capabilities are not good enough to deduce that you must do X different. We need details of what you do exactly, what error it gives, what you expect to happen, etc. In other words, enough information so we can reproduce the problem if we like. Until then it is just random guessing what you may do or not do.
10:57<Alberth>andythenorth: ok, 0.5c seemed to be the latest in bananas, hence I asked about this version.
10:57<PeterT>What's the problem?
10:57<dikzak>Alberth: i'm following the tut on the wiki(http://wiki.openttd.org/AI:Introduction) i created the main.nut and info.nut file in OpenTTD\content_download\ai\testai\
10:58<andythenorth>Alberth: I should update Bananas in that case
10:58-!-CIA-9 [~CIA@208.69.182.149] has joined #openttd
10:58<andythenorth>I love bananas. But I hate keeping it up to date
10:59<PeterT>But it's easier that keeping GRFCrawler up-to-date
10:59<Alberth>andythenorth: no problem, I am not much of a NewGRF user anyway :)
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11:00<Lakie>As far as I can tell, PeterT, GrfCrawler has issues with tt-forums database (and thus user auth).
11:00<dikzak>dikzak: oh, and it would help if you told me what you'd like to know(help me help you help me :P)
11:00<Lakie>Thus keeping things upto date on it is hard
11:00<PeterT>Did you get my message?
11:00<Lakie>Yes, and as I just said, I can't alter anything on grfcrawler
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11:01<PeterT>No?
11:01<PeterT>Can orudge?
11:01<Lakie>Possibly, but he has other things to do
11:02<PeterT>I wasn't making a request, just wondering.
11:02<Alberth>dikzak: all data you have made, such as complete program code would be a start (use a pastebin plz, eg pastebin.openttd.org), include version number, etc etc.
11:03<PeterT>Ok well, I found a new download for the GRF anyway
11:03<PeterT>thanks
11:03<PeterT>(Oh and nice job!)
11:03<dikzak>Alberth: oh, and it would help if you told me what you'd like to know(help me help you help me )
11:04<Alberth>dikzak: not that I can say much about AIs, but there are others that can. Like me, they need enough information to try what you are doing at your machine themselves
11:04<Alberth>(05:03:45 PM) Alberth: dikzak: all data you have made, such as complete program code would be a start (use a pastebin plz, eg pastebin.openttd.org), include version number, etc etc. <-- this was the answer
11:05<Alberth>or is that not clean?
11:05<Alberth>s/clean/clear/
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11:06<dikzak>Alberth: http://pastebin.com/m17b2af1a all in the OpenTTD\content_download\ai\testai folder
11:07<dikzak>Alberth: openttd version 0.7.3.17678
11:07<Alberth>ok
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11:14<Alberth>dikzak: if you use a different class name, do it consistently: info.nut: "class testai" vs "RegisterAI(MyNewAI());" main.nut: "class testai" vs "MyNewAI::Start()"
11:14<dikzak>Alberth: oops, let's if that fixes it :-)
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11:17<dikzak>Alberth: that fixes nothing, replaced that in two places :-?
11:21<b_jonas>argh. I must buy yellow company now
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11:28<Alberth>dikzak: I get these warnings: dbg: [ai] The AI 'testai' returned a string from GetShortName() which is not four characaters. Unable to load the AI.
11:29*SpComb returns äöüä from GetShortName
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11:30<AC6000>mornin everyone :)
11:32<Alberth>dikzak: also, the name of the class and the name of the directory should be the same, it seems.
11:32*Alberth goes making some dinner now
11:32<dikzak>Alberth: it is...
11:33*dikzak thinks that that was the greatestest english ever
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11:36<CIA-9>OpenTTD: frosch * r17802 /trunk/src/ (industry_gui.cpp lang/english.txt newgrf_text.cpp): -Feature(ette) [FS#1862]: [NewGRF] Textstack support for CB 37.
11:38<fonsinchen>"for StationCargoLists the 'loaded_at_xy' does not matter when merging CargoPackets" ... indeed. This might further reduce the number of packets in stations. Nice.
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12:04<andythenorth>evening
12:05<Forked>greetings
12:06<andythenorth>would any of you good folks care to delve into the text stack with me (specifically the nfo side of that business)?
12:08<andythenorth>or to put it another way, help :O
12:08<andythenorth>:)
12:11<_ln>quite a beginning in Formula 1.
12:11<Chruker>yeah
12:15<Sacro>#f1 if you wanna chat
12:16<andythenorth>Pikka: is this little beauty sticking something on the text stack?
12:16<andythenorth>http://paste.openttd.org/217448
12:16<andythenorth> (scuse the pastebin, it has html-quoted some characters)
12:16<frosch123>andythenorth: "To use entry X in an include text (codes 80/81), use ID D400+X. Note that if you want to include ID D000/D400, the 00 byte will be considered the end of string in action 4, this will therefore break if additional texts are supposed to follow in the action 4." <- that is the important part
12:16<Sacro>_ln: jooooin us ;P
12:17<andythenorth>frosch123: is that on the wiki? Maybe I need glasses :)
12:17<frosch123>it is somewhat hidden :p
12:17<frosch123>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=TextIDs#D000_Miscellaneous_GRF_texts
12:18<frosch123>ˇˇˇˇ <- what is char 711 ?
12:19<andythenorth>ˇ
12:20<frosch123>err, you are not trying to specify the text to insert in the varaction2, are you?
12:20<frosch123>all "blabla" have to go into action4s
12:21<andythenorth>frosch123: I haven't tried to specify anything yet for this, I am confused first of all about the structure of the code :)
12:21<andythenorth>and second of all about the actual code
12:21<andythenorth>and third of all...no there is no third
12:22<andythenorth>I have two goals
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12:22<andythenorth>1. prevent unnecessary text ID use by joining sub strings (depending on results of a varaction 2)
12:23<andythenorth>2. print into the industry window so I can actually see the values of variables or contents of registers
12:23<andythenorth>I don't really trust my code because there's no way to know if it's working, only if it crashes the game :)
12:23<frosch123>http://paste.openttd.org/217449 <- you need something like that
12:24<andythenorth>yes indeed
12:26<andythenorth>can the action 2 part be done in just one action 2?
12:27<frosch123>depends on what decides what text to insert
12:27<andythenorth>lets say it's cargo waiting (it may as well be), so we're checking var 40 of industry
12:27<frosch123>the storing and returning can be done in one varact2
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12:28<andythenorth>http://paste.openttd.org/217450
12:28<andythenorth>for example
12:28<frosch123>so you want to print something like "too much" or "gimme more"
12:28<andythenorth>yep
12:29<andythenorth>lets say they are IDs (checks)
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12:30<frosch123>well, i guess it is easier to use one action2 for every text to insert
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12:30<George>Rubidium: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=34758&start=340
12:30<andythenorth>IDs would be in the D0x range (or do they have to be in D4x?)
12:31<andythenorth>D0xD0 and D0xD1 for example
12:31<CIA-9>OpenTTD: frosch * r17803 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Remove update_(left|right) in favour of the rebuild flag of GUIList.
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12:32<frosch123>andythenorth: the D0xx and D4xx thingie is totally messed up. They mean the same strings, but in some places you have to use D0xx and in some D4xx.
12:32<JH-Q>hello
12:32<George>Rubidium: People can't build fishing grounds since r17605-17633
12:32<andythenorth>So when I create them with an action 4, it's ok that they are D0xx ?
12:33<frosch123>they have to be :p
12:33<andythenorth>ok
12:33<JH-Q>a player is blocking my construction on multiplayer server, what should i do?
12:33<Ammler>JH-Q: build around
12:34<JH-Q>my company is over 300x wealthier than his, but i wouldn't want to start a fight
12:34<Ammler>or ask the other player to rebuild his part
12:34<JH-Q>hes away
12:34<JH-Q>and his rails aren't built for purpose, just thrown around land which i own
12:34<JH-Q>maybe i'll just build a tunnel under them and hope he goes away
12:34<Ammler>ask admin to reset his company
12:35<JH-Q>how do i contact admin?
12:35<Ammler>google server name
12:35<andythenorth>frosch123: so to push an ID in the D4x range onto the stack....
12:36<andythenorth>...do I check ranges in the usual way and then use 0E and some AND logic that still baffles me?
12:36-!-fonsinchen [~alve@BAEaca8.bae.pppool.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:36<andythenorth>...or do I need to compare values with the advanced action 2 operators?
12:40<frosch123>http://paste.openttd.org/217452 <- for inserting a single text
12:40*Pikka has no idea about the text stack :)
12:41<andythenorth>Pikka: well learning is fun, no? :)
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12:41<andythenorth>frosch123: that last paste makes sense
12:42<Pikka>of course :) but I'm concentrating on other things at the moment :P
12:42<andythenorth>frosch123: so I don't have to care about a register number? The text stack 'just knows' when a D4x ID is pointed its way?
12:43*andythenorth off to write some code
12:43<andythenorth>inevitable questions about ANDing will follow....
12:43<andythenorth>RUN AWAY!!
12:44<Pikka>:o
12:45<frosch123>andythenorth: 0x100 is the register
12:45<andythenorth>oops
12:46*andythenorth embarassed
12:46<frosch123>if you have more than one text to insert you will need more registers, and likely you will also have to put different stuff into the same register (that is where the fun starts)
12:46<Muxy>@seen luukland
12:46<@DorpsGek>Muxy: luukland was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 22 hours, 27 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <Luukland> Anyways, thx for the answer, pls next time hold the sarcasm Belugas, dont be such an ass to ppl who just ask normal questions
12:47<Muxy>oops
12:47<frosch123>was he banned afterwards? :p
12:47<Muxy>let me check the logs
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12:54<andythenorth>frosch123: to stay out of the "nvar=0 pit"...do I set nvar=0 or not?
12:54<andythenorth>sorry if that should be obvious
12:55<frosch123>no, you have to use nvar >= 1
12:55<frosch123>but return the same in both cases
12:55<Rhamphoryncus>How do I tweak the pathfinder variables? I can't find it on the wiki
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12:58<Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: there appears to be a [pf] section in openttd.cfg
12:58<Rhamphoryncus>I just remembered that ~ brings up the console, so now I'm getting decent search results
12:59<frosch123>or ingame: open console, type "list_settings" and change them via "setting" or so
13:00-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1C71A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
13:00<Steve^>Is there a way to convert an entire rail network into a monorail network?
13:00<Steve^>I recall TTDPatch had a cheat for it
13:01<frosch123>you can convert the tracks with three clicks, but not the trains
13:01<Rhamphoryncus>thanks
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13:02<Steve^>hmm, shame
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13:03<andythenorth>frosch123: http://paste.openttd.org/217453
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13:04<frosch123>you should use escapes, D1 84 and 01 00 are both wrong :p
13:05<andythenorth>so renum just told me :)
13:05<frosch123>0F // end calculation, start afresh <- what's that?
13:05<andythenorth>copied and pasted that code from some mb gave me last year...
13:05<andythenorth>!
13:06<andythenorth>not needed?
13:06<frosch123>remove that 0F and replace the second 20 with 00
13:07<andythenorth>how to do the escapes?
13:07*andythenorth wiki
13:07<frosch123>\wx100 for the register, \wxD4?? for the text
13:07<Steve^>wow, I find it quite humorous that maglev trains can go 600 km/h on flat land and 60 on a hill
13:08<Pikka>Steve^: try turning realistic train physics on
13:09*frosch123 << food
13:09<andythenorth>frosch123: yum
13:09<Steve^>hmm
13:11<Steve^>ok, with realistic the maglevs can do one corner at full speed but not two
13:13<andythenorth>yay, renum stopped punishing me
13:13<andythenorth>one day I'll update my renum...
13:13<andythenorth>mine is blankly ignorant of several escape strings
13:13<andythenorth>*sequences
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13:15<Pikka>so, let's say I introduce a mail/express van around 1890 and it looks a little like this: http://www.gwr.org.uk/pronsiphon.html
13:15<Pikka>what should I call it? :P
13:16<andythenorth>"Victory is Mine"
13:16<andythenorth>Not actually a suggestion for Pikka
13:16<andythenorth>:P
13:16<Pikka>:P
13:16<andythenorth>Pikka: Siphon G
13:16<andythenorth>We had two for sausages when I was kid
13:16<Pikka>well I was going to call it a siphon, but people who don't know won't understand why...
13:17<andythenorth>Utility van?
13:17<Pikka>hmm
13:17<andythenorth>Mail / Express Van?
13:17<Doorslammer> Siphon G Van
13:18<Pikka>yeah, maybe Siphon Van will be okay...
13:18<Doorslammer>Sounds perfectly reasonable to me
13:18<andythenorth>Here's mine
13:18<andythenorth>http://cgi.ebay.ph/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350232728630
13:18<andythenorth>not literally
13:18<Doorslammer>Whats the project Pikka?
13:19<Pikka>http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Project_1000 Doorslammer
13:19<andythenorth>Doorslammer: Pikka is drawing The Last Train to Transcentral
13:19<andythenorth>followed by an ice cream van
13:19<andythenorth>And I'm drawing an industry which burns a million pounds
13:20<Pikka>nice, andy
13:20<Doorslammer>Wow
13:20<Doorslammer>Looking good
13:24<@Rubidium>Project 1000? what about NewUKRS or YAUKRS (where the R stands for rail) :)
13:24<planetmaker>trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: In function ‘void GetAllCargoSuffixes(uint, CargoSuffixType, const Industry*, IndustryType, const IndustrySpec*, const TC&, TS&)’:
13:24<planetmaker>/Users/ingo/ottd/trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp:88: error: type mismatch with previous external decl of ‘const int __ct_assert__ [(1 - (2 * (!((sizeof (cargos) / sizeof (cargos[0])) <= (sizeof (suffixes) / sizeof (suffixes[0]))))))]’
13:24<planetmaker>trunk/src/table/sprites.h:1462: error: previous external decl of ‘const int __ct_assert__ [1]’
13:25<planetmaker>^ in current trunk
13:25<Doorslammer>Thats a mouthful
13:25<@Rubidium>get a better gcc :)
13:25<planetmaker>ehm... 4.2?
13:26<planetmaker>let me check that I didn't use llvm-gcc-4.2, but...
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13:26<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17804 /trunk/src/ (cargopacket.cpp cargopacket.h station.cpp): -Codechange: move the CargoPacket 'invalidation' when stations get removed to CargoPacket.
13:27<planetmaker>doesn't change a thing
13:27<frosch123>let's test msvc
13:28<@Rubidium>question is... is it triggering an assert_compile or is assert_compile the issue?
13:29<planetmaker>I'm not sure. It doesn't look to me like a assert compile, but rather it being the issue
13:29<frosch123>planetmaker: yeah, replace the assert with a printf that outputs length(cargos), lengthof(suffixes) and length(suffixes[0])
13:29<@Rubidium>s/length/lengthof/
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13:31<Terkhen>andythenorth: I am testing the improved acceleration for road vehicles patch making the slope steeper for road vehicles; it solves the problem and now road vehicle speed takes a noticeable hit on slopes... HEQS articulated vehicles can't go faster than 1 km/h after a few sloped tiles when carrying a full load, though
13:32<George>Bigos reports:
13:32<George>For r17605 I get error: Unhandled exception at 0x00492875 in openttd.exe: 0xC0000005: Access violation reading location 0x00000004.
13:32<George>For r17600 there is no errors.
13:32<George>Now Yea have easy way to check where the problem is.
13:32<planetmaker>uh... if I do that I get a bunch of compile errors & warnings.
13:32<George>Rubidium: Please have a look!
13:33<frosch123>planetmaker: does it show which types it used for TC and TS ?
13:35<Steve^>roundabouts are baaad
13:36<planetmaker>ah, wait. It compiles. Typo in printf :-P
13:36<planetmaker>so it should be a compile-time assert :-)
13:36<planetmaker>but I don't have the types yet / sizes
13:37<andythenorth>Terkhen: most of the articulated RVs in HEQS have low coefficient of T/E, I'll tweak and fix
13:38<Alberth>Steve^: yes, unfortunately
13:38<andythenorth>have you released a new acceleration patch on the thread?
13:38<frosch123>hmm, msvc wants lots of typename instead of class in cargopacket.h
13:39<Terkhen>no, but it will be uploaded soon
13:39<Terkhen>I just have to finish some comments
13:39<planetmaker>sorry, bbl
13:43<andythenorth>frosch123: text stack code working :)
13:43<andythenorth>thanks
13:43<Steve^>my dream of having 17 cities all connected to each other is looking bleak
13:43<frosch123>nice andy :)
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13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: translators * r17805 /trunk/src/lang/ (norwegian_bokmal.txt norwegian_nynorsk.txt):
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by Utvik
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by Utvik
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13:47<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17806 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: split CargoPacket's 'afterload' to a separate function
13:52<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17807 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move all 'updates' just after the 'load' constructor of CargoPackets to the constructor call itself
13:53<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17808 /trunk/src/ (cargopacket.h economy.cpp station_gui.cpp): -Codechange: remove write 'access' from all of CargoPacket's variables
13:56<Terkhen>andythenorth: new version released
13:56<@Rubidium>George: what vector are those grounds in?
13:56<George>Agricultural
13:57<andythenorth>Terkhen: thanks. probably won't compile tonight, but I'll test soon!
13:57<Terkhen>no problem :)
13:57<andythenorth>Question to the audience:
13:57<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607&p=825630#p825630
13:57<andythenorth>1. which is better
13:58<andythenorth>2. could we make a change to the industry window text layout?
13:58<@Rubidium>George: dbg: [grf] [ecs_agricultural_vector.b5__28_jun_2009_/ecsagriw.grf:995] IndustriesChangeInfo: Invalid industry layout for industry id 29. Ignoring
13:59<George>can it report what tile is wrong?
14:00<_ln>Sacro: [19:16] <Sacro> _ln: jooooin us ;P <-- sorry, was afk
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14:01<Sacro>_ln: well the channel has gone now the race is over :p
14:03<@Rubidium>George: (at least) 1, 3
14:03<Alberth>andythenorth: changing the text layout would mean a change to all NewGRF, right?
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14:03<andythenorth>Alberth: maybe. depends if anyone is relying on that text layout...
14:04<andythenorth>OzTrans might be
14:04<andythenorth>CanSet 3 features industries
14:04<DaleStan>George: The NFORenum "nightlies" should be able to.
14:04<Alberth>(at least I changed that window to day, and remember there were only 3 text pieces)
14:04<andythenorth>of course, I can't test that, because CanSet is "officially not working" with OpenTTD
14:04<andythenorth>PBI doesn't rely on anything fiddly there
14:04<andythenorth>George is here to ask
14:04<andythenorth>who else makes industries?
14:05<@Rubidium>George: http://paste.openttd.org/217455 <- all duplicates (there are even duplicate duplicates)
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14:09<andythenorth>Alberth: what are the 3 text pieces?
14:10<@Rubidium>DaleStan: nforenum r2237 doesn't add warnings about the duplicate tiles (or I'm missing something)
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14:10<Alberth>as in your first picture, the waiting cargo, the last month production, and 'what the industry wants to say further'
14:11<andythenorth>No idea if my proposed change is possible...but anyway
14:12<DaleStan>Oh. The same location is defined twice? Then no, I don't check that.
14:12<andythenorth>I propose that the last month production block can move down if waiting cargo block is longer
14:12<Alberth>it does now
14:13<andythenorth>Alberth: so if I compile latest nightly?
14:13<andythenorth>My 'screenshots' are a photoshop hack to keep some spacing between the two blocks
14:13<Alberth>ie those 3 pieces of text are printed underneath each other, and the widget resizes to make it fit
14:14<andythenorth>So if I dropped newlines at the end of the cargo subtext, the "production last month" would move down
14:14<andythenorth>?
14:14<andythenorth>dropped = added!
14:17<Alberth>hmm, probably not :( the lines are printed with DrawString() which does not expect to get newlines afaik
14:19<Alberth>sorry for the confusion, must have misunderstood you somewhere
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14:21<andythenorth>Alberth: I'll screenshot what happens right now....the intended change should be obvious. If it can't be done, c'est la vie!
14:22<Alberth>ok
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14:26*andythenorth confused about why text code that works for cb 3A is failing for cb 37
14:28<andythenorth>Ach, there are too many problems with this text placement idea of mine
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14:29<andythenorth>The information can just go somewhere else
14:29<andythenorth>Bottom of the window or something
14:29<andythenorth>It's not logical, but it's clean
14:29<frosch123>:p you are evading the interesting stuff
14:30<George>Rubidium: Thank you, it helped. Could you make OTTD to report about duplicates with red indow?
14:30<@Rubidium>George: could, but it's too much work for too little benefit
14:30<andythenorth>frosch123: hmmm...the interesting bit would be for whoever gets to recode the industry window text layout, no?
14:31<George>agree
14:31<George>DaleStan: may be NFOrenum could do it?
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14:34<andythenorth>small text in the industry window?
14:34<andythenorth>no no no no looks ugly
14:37<andythenorth>So I say 'Not accepting Engineering Supplies' explicitly
14:37<andythenorth>But do I need to say 'Accepting Engineering Supplies' ?
14:37<andythenorth>Or is that just implicit
14:38<andythenorth>?
14:38<frosch123>i guess a red text "currently not accepting stuff" at the bottom is enough
14:39<andythenorth>I thought red too, but it's surprising hard to read! White is good
14:39<andythenorth>But the window now jumps size horribly when the text changes...most disruptive!
14:40<andythenorth>Thought of a fix I think...
14:41<andythenorth>That'll be a victory for the old 'spurious linebreaks' trick then
14:41<andythenorth>Ah, the things we learn coding html :)
14:42-!-KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-221-198.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
14:43<andythenorth>Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner...I'm pleased with that industry text...not too much, just the right amount
14:43<andythenorth>Now I need a cb which *gets* cargo acceptance rather than *setting* it
14:43<andythenorth>oops, a var I mean
14:43<andythenorth>doh
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14:45<Pikka>no you don't, andy
14:45<andythenorth>no I don't indeed
14:46<andythenorth>cb 2C?
14:46<Rhamphoryncus>Okay, I think I've deciphered my madness.. I was under the impression that a station is always a stopping point, but it seems that only applies when a given end is a dead end
14:46<Alberth>or perhaps if you add a signal at the end of the platform?
14:46<andythenorth>hmmm cb 2C is for *industry tiles*...close but no cigar, I need the actual industry acceptance...
14:47<Rhamphoryncus>So, when I attempted to make a station into a roro with the back as the preferred direction, it still wanted to come in from the front... and found no stopping point, so it'd loop around again.. and still find no stopping point.. and again until it hits itself, and ergo can find no path
14:47<Pikka>andy: use the same action 2 chain you used to /decide/ industry acceptance? :P
14:47<Rhamphoryncus>It doesn't even seem to consider approaching from the rear unless I make the front one-way
14:47<CIA-9>OpenTTD: frosch * r17809 /trunk/src/ (cargopacket.cpp cargopacket.h): -Fix: MSVC compilation.
14:48<Rhamphoryncus>And if I add signals to the rear it prefers the front
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14:48<Pikka>if you want to do anything super-clever, you may need to do it with flags/registers. ;)
14:48<andythenorth>Pikka: I'm doing that, I was just trying to be efficient / bulletproof with my code
14:48<andythenorth>^^ as in I'm doing the action 2 chain checking waiting cargo
14:48<andythenorth>*slightly* inspired by PBI code ;)
14:49<Pikka>:)
14:49<andythenorth>I may save registers for another day, but they are going to be the right thing to do some day
14:49<Pikka>the pbi code is so old, I'm sure there's a lot of things I could do better...
14:49<andythenorth>ach it works
14:49<andythenorth>I've had a lot of fun with that evil ste
14:49<andythenorth>set*
14:50<Pikka>:)
14:50<Pikka>hmm
14:50<Pikka>one of these days I should get around to making my farms produce grain again
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14:53<andythenorth>my industry and nearby station are quite out sync when it comes to accepting cargo (or not)
14:53<andythenorth>should I just expect that?
14:54<Pikka>h,
14:54<andythenorth>the station acceptance lags some way behind the industry acceptance in time
14:54<frosch123>that is normal
14:54<frosch123>3.5 days or so
14:54<andythenorth>right, I'll ignore it
14:54<andythenorth>one less thing to worry about
14:57<andythenorth>I am pleased with my efforts, and I think they deserve a commit :)
14:57<andythenorth>Time for some tea
15:02<Rhamphoryncus>funny thing... I drop pf.yapf.pbs_signal_back_penalty from 1500 to 500 and it becomes unable to find a path
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15:06<Rhamphoryncus>'course I really have two problems. One is the inability to find the rear path without making the front path unacceptable. The other is how to make the rear path preferred
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15:07<George>DaleStan: NFOrenum r2237 transforms
15:07<George> 11 * 9 07 88 04 08 "Me" 6F 91 01
15:07<George> to
15:07<George> 30 * 9 07 88 04D- "Me" 6F 91 01
15:07<George>but GRFcodec r2212 reports "Encountered invalid character looking for literal byte"
15:07<George>What am I doing wrong?
15:08<Rhamphoryncus>heh, and the solution may be stupidly obvious: the pathfinder is outsmarting me, declaring the front *substantially* better. I need to make it worse. ie, make the input route come from the side, so the two are balanced
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15:11<Rhamphoryncus>nope, ignoring the front path entirely
15:11*Rhamphoryncus should maybe stop expecting so much from path signals :P
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15:12<Alberth>I always wondered whether messing with those values is useful, given that you change path-finding globally
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15:16<Rhamphoryncus>Alberth: bigger issue with changing them is you don't actually *fix* anything
15:16<Alberth>that makes it less useful :)
15:17<Rhamphoryncus>in essence, I want trains to bypass broken trains, but otherwise stick to the preferred routes. It's not capable of that though
15:17<Alberth>maybe the PF doesn't know the difference between a normal train and a broken train?
15:18<Rhamphoryncus>yeah
15:18<Rhamphoryncus>I don't think it looks at trains at all. It looks at reserved routes
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15:20<Alberth>I think it does, but only a few signals ahead. If you split a track to 2 parallel tracks, trains kind of evenly distribute between the two tracks. However I use block-length = 4 tiles.
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15:26<Rhamphoryncus>No, that's incidental. It can get further along by using the second track, so it'll move over. Once there it prefers a straight line, so it'll stick to it
15:30<Alberth>ok, you play the game more often than I probably :)
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15:31<Rhamphoryncus>not nearly enough to understand it ;)
15:31<Alberth>well, we do need a PF guru :p
15:34<Rhamphoryncus>that's actually how it *should* behave.. but the problem I'm having right now seems to exhibit all-or-nothing behaviour. Not considering alternate routes
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15:39<Alberth>maybe the difference is too subtle to make a decision
15:41<Rhamphoryncus>small differences is where it should excel.
15:42<@Rubidium>talking about pathfinder behaviour usually works better with a concrete example (read savegame) than when the others have to guess what's the exact problem
15:46<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: plus I keep changing what I'm doing ;)
15:46<Steve^>Pendolinos are the most modern trains in Britain?
15:48<Rhamphoryncus>I think I got it working though. Tweaked things so that trains prefer the rear entrance, but use the front if the rear is unavailable
15:49<Rhamphoryncus>there's probably some cutoff in cost difference that makes it wait for a path, rather than find another
15:52<Rhamphoryncus>And the cost of a few tiles is pretty substantial, more than I would have guessed
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16:00<Rhamphoryncus>A side treck 6 tiles out (including turns) is preferable to going backwards through a signal, but not one of 7 tiles
16:03<andythenorth>FIRS FIRS FIRS FIRS
16:03<andythenorth>secondary (processing) industries turn out to be mighty complicated :)
16:03<andythenorth>but must not be complicated to the player
16:03<andythenorth>hum
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16:05<Steve^>andythenorth, you decided on your text?
16:05<andythenorth>yes
16:05<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: FIRS is very nice btw (although I've barely touched it). Adds a lot of depth
16:05<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: and width :P
16:06*Rhamphoryncus adds length and time for good measure
16:07<andythenorth>what about fire?
16:07<Steve^>are you going to colour it depending on accepting/full?
16:07<Rhamphoryncus>Naw. 5th element has to be Heart
16:07<andythenorth>Steve^: I'll post a screen shot in the FIRS thread
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16:18<andythenorth>Steve^: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607&p=825690#p825690
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16:23<break19>nah, the 5th element is always a real hot chic that dont talk much, but can kick your ass..
16:24<Prof_Frink>That or Boron.
16:24<Steve^>looks good andy
16:25<Steve^>where do the excess supplies go?
16:26<CIA-9>OpenTTD: frosch * r17810 /trunk/src/ (industry_gui.cpp stdafx.h):
16:26<CIA-9>OpenTTD: -Codechange/Fix: Add assert_tcompile() and use it.
16:26<CIA-9>OpenTTD: OTTD's traditional assert_compile() does not work inside templates for gcc compilers, static_assert() does though.
16:26<CIA-9>OpenTTD: The new assert_tcompile() resolves into static_assert() if present, or into a runtime assert() else.
16:30<andythenorth>Steve^: excess supplies stay on the train, mostly.
16:30<andythenorth>I'm not sure if some of them just go MIA, it's hard to tell
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16:31<frosch123>that bevaviour differs in 0.7 and trunk, and trunk is also a bit WIP in that point
16:34<andythenorth>one thing in nfo's favour: no braces, no semi-colons :)
16:34<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: looks good to me too. I'd hate to repeatedly drop off 1 crate at a time
16:34<andythenorth>my kind of language
16:34<planetmaker>back
16:35<frosch123>planetmaker: svn up :p
16:35<planetmaker>oh, I see, that the assert compile is already fixed :-) ty frosch123
16:35<planetmaker>hg pull :-P
16:35<frosch123>yeah it failed for all non c++0x capable gcc compilers
16:36<planetmaker>wow. gcc-4.2 is not c++0x capable...?
16:36<frosch123>no idea
16:37<frosch123>seems so
16:38<frosch123>"gcc has had static_assert since 4.3"
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16:38<planetmaker>well. That's newer than my compilers
16:38<planetmaker>That lets me wonder why apple doesn't ship its new system with gcc-4.4
16:39<frosch123>hehe, i'm also only on 4.3.4 :p
16:39<@Rubidium>because llvm is still at gcc-4.2
16:42<planetmaker>Rubidium: but this machine has gcc-4.0.1, gcc-4.2.1 and llvm-gcc-4.2.1
16:42<planetmaker>no reason for the latter two, one would think
16:42<planetmaker>err.. first two :-)
16:42<planetmaker>but llvm-gcc-4.2 is 33% faster compiling OpenTTD than gcc-4.2
16:43<planetmaker>4:30m vs 6:40m
16:43<@Rubidium>that can be caused by so many things
16:43<Rhamphoryncus>But how fast is the resulting code?
16:43<planetmaker>for another project I tested it with, there's no difference, though.
16:44<Rhamphoryncus>You could turn off optimizations and get an even faster compile
16:47<planetmaker>good point... how do I measure the exacution speed of OpenTTD?
16:48<break19>little-known gcc compiler flag -jz : causes gcc to output "I'm a pimp" every time a module is compiled successfully..
16:50<@Rubidium>just compile gcc-4.2 with -O0 and enable its asserting and compare that to a gcc compiled with -O3 and disabled assertions and the lot
16:51<planetmaker>but how does that give me the speed of the generated binary?
16:51<+glx>time using same savegame and same tick limit
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16:52<planetmaker>can I specify the amount of ticks OpenTTD is supposed to run and then terminate?
16:53<SmatZ>planetmaker: openttd -v null:ticks=1000
16:53<SmatZ>(1000 is the default)
16:53<+glx>hmm only for null driver yes
16:54<+glx>but null video driver is enough to compare speed
16:54<planetmaker>interesting. Thank you, SmatZ
16:54<@Rubidium>unless you're looking at the speed of the video stuff
16:55<boekabart>just make sure you run for enough ticks to minimize the startup/loading
16:55<boekabart>effect
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16:56<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17811 /trunk/src/querystring_gui.h: -Codechange: make HasEditBoxFocus a private function of QueryString because it's not meant to be used for determining whether the given widget actually has focus (it also checks the OSK edit box)
16:57<mynetdude>hey guys I've been fiddling with the pf.yapf.rail_twoway_eol setting, can this be permenantly set regardless of a new game or saved game?
16:58<SmatZ>no
16:58<@Rubidium>no, unless you mess with the code (but that might desync you in MP)
16:58<mynetdude>oh
16:58<mynetdude>bummer :(
16:58<SmatZ>after loading a game, it will be set to value stored in savegame (unless it's 0.4-or-older-savegame)
16:58<mynetdude>can this setting work in MP?
16:58<+glx>if you are the server
16:58<SmatZ>you can change it in MP as server
16:59<mynetdude>ah ok so once the game is loaded it will retain that setting... cool
16:59<mynetdude>ok very cool
16:59<mynetdude>works for me I guess
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16:59<andythenorth>there he goes!
17:00<andythenorth>coding secondary industries is more challenging than I hoped
17:00<mynetdude>one other question... probably gets asked all the time and probably doesn't have a defined answer because the maps change/random whatever but if you start laying tracks then you decide it could have been better to lay them differently... I suppose there is no point in trying to revamp?
17:00<planetmaker>what do you mean, andythenorth ?
17:00<andythenorth>the main issue is combining the production callback (needed) with allowing some players to stuff insane amounts of cargo through an industry
17:01<planetmaker>hehe :-)
17:01<andythenorth>production callback does gradual processing, at a certain rate
17:01*planetmaker whistles innocently
17:01<andythenorth>It *is* possible. But the code is non-trivial
17:01<planetmaker>you can certainly define levels at which input is processed, isn't it?
17:01<andythenorth>yes yes, all of that is fine
17:01<Rhamphoryncus>mynetdude: it's expensive and time consuming. You were thinking otherwise?
17:02<andythenorth>planetmaker: for industries with only one input it's not too hard
17:02<mynetdude>Rhamphoryncus yeah, expensive and time consuming... yeah just lay the tracks and don't think about it later :P
17:02<andythenorth>it's more complex when there are more inputs
17:02<andythenorth>I also need to think about outputs
17:02<planetmaker>andythenorth: for industries with more than one input, you take the speed of whatever is slowest (defining minimum requirements for the levels)
17:03<mynetdude>there is an option to not allow industries to be present when you start the game, and it is possible for players to establish an industry... has anyone tried to play this way?
17:03<planetmaker>but yeah. it sounds simple, but isn't, I guess
17:03<andythenorth>well it depends on whether the inputs are independent, or if you need both
17:03<Terkhen>good night
17:03-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@63.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...]
17:04<andythenorth>then if there are two output cargos, do we have 50% of each, or do we look at what is being transported most, and use that?
17:04<Rhamphoryncus>mynetdude: fine tuning is half the fun
17:04<andythenorth>^^ bye Terkhen
17:04-!-Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d199-126-251-5.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus]
17:04<andythenorth>planetmaker: I'm have a plan, but it's going to take a little while....I'm worried it will be too complicated to be fun
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17:06<mynetdude>has anyone played with no industries on the map?
17:06<andythenorth>not me
17:06<Ammler>mynetdude: I guess ECS town vector is able to.
17:06<mynetdude>setting up the industry is expensive so I was curious if anyone has
17:07<mynetdude>Ammler sorry, don't understand what you mean
17:07<Ammler>I thought, you are looking for a GRF which allows you to disable industries
17:07<planetmaker>mynetdude: sure I did
17:07<andythenorth>mynetdude: try it with 'prospecting' for primary industries. it will be cheaper...
17:07<planetmaker>but then I only transported passengers :-)
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17:07<mynetdude>Ammler, no you can turn off industries in the difficulty settings
17:08<Ammler>hmm, really, new to me :-)
17:08<Ammler>when was that done?
17:08<mynetdude>planetmaker its easier to start off with passengers to build your base funds
17:08<planetmaker>mynetdude: no.
17:08<mynetdude>Ammler been there for as long as i can remember since 0.5.0 I think
17:09<mynetdude>planetmaker you mean the other way around, doing cargo is easier?
17:09<Ammler>well, you can create a map without industries, but they will apear with the time.
17:09<planetmaker>it doesn't matter. That's what I think :-)
17:10<planetmaker>you can make a fortune with coal. With farm products, with oil, with pax.
17:10<mynetdude>ah ok
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17:10<mynetdude>Ammler oh ok good point, even with industries already there they will appear over time as well... forgot about that
17:10<planetmaker>if I want cash, I usually just build two airports in moderately big towns as much distant as I get them and then I build my train network.
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17:12<mynetdude>ah ok... I've always liked building train networks first for some reason... it takes longer to get the money but it does happen at some point
17:13<mynetdude>planetmaker when you build airports between two large towns do you also build large airports?
17:13<andythenorth>good night
17:13<planetmaker>mynetdude: that obviously depends on the game year
17:13-!-andythenorth [~andy@87.115.29.213.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
17:13<planetmaker>good night Andythnorth...
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17:13<mynetdude>aha ok
17:14<mynetdude>Ammler btw, the game does add towns to the map over time too
17:14<Ammler>nah
17:14<planetmaker>mynetdude: it doesn't
17:14<Ammler>:-)
17:16<mynetdude>so there is no way to "plant" new towns as a player either?
17:16<mynetdude>I was sure I saw a map grow towns... but the map was fluked
17:17<planetmaker>there's a custom-built version for that somewhere possibly
17:17<planetmaker>but not in official binaries
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17:20<mynetdude>will it be available in official binaries someday?
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17:24<planetmaker>maybe. maybe not
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17:26<planetmaker>hm, nice. llvm-gcc code is also a bit faster than plain gcc code
17:28<planetmaker>hm... I need to use more ticks, I guess
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17:45<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:45<Pikka>hello
17:45<Nite_Owl>Hello Pikka
17:47<Nite_Owl>So who broke the compilation this time
17:47*Chruker looks innocent
17:48<Yexo>TrueBrain: the url http://noai.openttd.org/repositories/show/ai-admiralai gives an internal error
17:49<Yexo>it's reachable via http://noai.openttd.org/projects/show/ai-admiralai ("Repository" link in menu bar)
17:49<TrueBrain>Yexo: fucking redmine and his 'memory management
17:49<TrueBrain>it sucks ..
17:50<TrueBrain>better?
17:50<Yexo>yes, thanks
17:51<Nite_Owl>my bad - I thought that was an answer to my inquiry
17:56<mynetdude>is the online GRF download an all inclusive of all of the available GRFs out there?
17:57<Nite_Owl>No
17:58<Nite_Owl>http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/
17:58<Nite_Owl>that is another place to look
17:58<Nite_Owl>plus the graphics forums
17:59<Nite_Owl>and the links page
18:01-!-fonsinchen [~alve@BAEe75a.bae.pppool.de] has joined #openttd
18:01<Nite_Owl>http://www.openttdcoop.org
18:02<Nite_Owl>that site also has a rather comprehensive grf package to download
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18:08<mynetdude>how can I get the map/seed number after the game has already started?
18:08<mynetdude>And if I use the same seed, will the towns be in the same place?
18:09<Nite_Owl>type <getseed> (no brackets) in the console
18:11<Nite_Owl>the towns will not necessarily be in the same place due to random placement of other things like industries
18:11<Nite_Owl>they should be fairly close though
18:14-!-kkb110 [~kkb110@host133-16.student.udel.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:14<planetmaker>a map generated with the same seed (and the same OpenTTD version!) should look exactly the same. Not only approx.
18:15<planetmaker>the seed is technically the starting number for the random generator. Thus there's no chance anymore, if you fix that
18:16<Nite_Owl>really ?? I have had industries and towns change position in the past. Mostly industries which, in turn, can affect towns
18:17<Nite_Owl>of course it has been quite awhile since I played around with it
18:17<mynetdude>I have no industries
18:17<mynetdude>so we'll see what happens, thanks guys
18:17<planetmaker>Nite_Owl: the (random) seed is the initialisation and should completely determine the map
18:18<planetmaker>of course that's not true anymore, if you start playing: you change the map then, too.
18:18<planetmaker>but the generation is 100% identical
18:18<planetmaker>if everything else is also the same (same settings,...)
18:19<planetmaker>different settings, of course, might give the random numbers different meanings, thus changing the outcome
18:19<mynetdude>fairly close, not exact
18:19<mynetdude>but the terrain is identical
18:19-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:20<mynetdude>I only changed the year
18:20-!-Rubix`` [~wrqwer@69.49.68.95] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:20<mynetdude>and population numbers changed too
18:20<planetmaker>the year is a setting
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18:23<mynetdude>yeah I realize that, but not a problem
18:23<planetmaker>and reproducability works for me
18:23<mynetdude>I only gave it a 30 year difference
18:23<mynetdude>planetmaker even changing the year or not changing the year?
18:23-!-PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-168-104.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
18:23<planetmaker>changing nothing -> same map
18:24<mynetdude>hmm... I picked up the world airline GRF and its missing quite a few planes
18:24<mynetdude>ah ok.. well I wanted airports in 1950... couldn't get any so I gave it a change in 30 years
18:24<planetmaker>you have airports in 1950...
18:24<planetmaker>but WAS has no good planes there
18:25<PeterT>I'm painting for was
18:25<PeterT>I just started 737-800 Malev
18:25<Nite_Owl>that grf is still an alpha version
18:25<mynetdude>I tried, the airport was greyed out in 1950
18:26<mynetdude>ah the WAS has no airline paint scheme in mine, its just white but its missing some of the smaller planes like the ERJ145 E170, CRJ700, etc
18:26<mynetdude>heck there are no props/turbos guess I'll have to go looking for better GRFs
18:26<planetmaker>mynetdude: ever tried to refit your plane?
18:27<planetmaker>that is THE feature of WAS. But well... there's a do-not-readme coming along with it, I guess
18:27<mynetdude>btw my seed number is still the same even though I changed it to 30 years later
18:27<mynetdude>ah I haven't looked at the readme, I downloaded it directly from the game
18:27<mynetdude>sure I can refit...
18:28<planetmaker>mynetdude: the seed number doesn't repreent the map. The map represents the seed number PLUS all settings
18:28<mynetdude>thats not the point... after building two airports I can't even buy a plane unless I borrow more
18:28<planetmaker>so?
18:28<mynetdude>so what?
18:28<mynetdude>you're right it doesn't matter, but its unrealistic
18:29<mynetdude>I'll just go back to not having WAS
18:35<mynetdude>this is kinda cool... each year you change in correlation with the seed the cities change :)
18:40<fonsinchen>Rubidium: Are you going to accept my proposal of having different containers for vehicle and station cargo lists? If so, how are you going to implement that with CargoList's template parameter being the "outer" cargolist implementation?
18:40<fonsinchen>You know you can't easily template typedefs, do you?
18:50-!-Sitethief[TOP] [~sitethief@sitethief.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
18:51<Sitethief[TOP]>Rubidium, kheb nu OTTD geupadte
18:51<Sitethief[TOP]>we zullen zien
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18:51<Pikka>you tell 'im
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18:59<mynetdude>are there any tips & tricks to preventing plane crashes, as to train crashes you prevent them by using signals
18:59<mynetdude>I had a plane crash upon touchdown
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19:07<@Rubidium>fonsinchen1: yeah, I'm having a bit of trouble with that now :( Was trying to push feeder_share out to VehicleCargoList; for the StationCargoList it isn't used. Saves 512 bytes per station *and* removes some 64 bits compares + updates (makes AddTo/RemoveFromCache for stations branchless, thus cheaper)
19:09<fonsinchen1>Can't you still do that with keeping the containers as template param?
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19:10<@Rubidium>not fully sure about it; I fear the thing needs two template parameters
19:12<fonsinchen>AddToCache and RemoveFromCache need a specialization for VehicleCargoList, but that can be very slim.
19:13<fonsinchen>Or where do you think the second tparam is needed?
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19:14<@Rubidium>in CargoList; I wouldn't know a way to (not) add an instance variable to a templated class based on some template parameter
19:14<Pikka>mynetdude: no, except don't use large aircraft at small airports.
19:15<mynetdude>Pikka how do you determine what is large?
19:16<fonsinchen>If you take my suggestion where VehicleCargoList is derived from CargoList<CargoPacketSet>, then you should be able to just add feeder_share as member of VehicleCargoList. Or is there anything which prevents that?
19:16<mynetdude>I'm using a 90 pax jet that is successfully landing at a small airport
19:17<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: CargoList::MoveTo modifies its own feeder_share
19:18<Pikka>mynetdude: the small and commuter airports are small, the other airports are large
19:18<mynetdude>nah I mean how do you know which planes are too big for a small field?
19:18<fonsinchen>In cargomap I had a similar problem. I solved it by creating two methods MoveToVehicle and MoveToStation which rely on common utility functions.
19:19<fonsinchen>Granted, it looks a little dirty with all the deprecated WillUnload stuff. I'll fix that soon.
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19:19<Pikka>depends what aircraft grf you're using, they should all tell you somehow whether a plane is large or small
19:20<@Rubidium>splitting it that far kinda leaves you with so little 'common' ground between the two classes that it's probably better to just have duplicated classes
19:20<fonsinchen>All the caching is still the same.
19:21<fonsinchen>also the utility functions are the same
19:21<fonsinchen>MoveToVehicle and MoveToStation themselves can be pretty small.
19:21<@Rubidium>not quite *if* you remove feeder_share for stationlists
19:22<@Rubidium>'only' truncate and the descructor would be the same
19:22<@Rubidium>and those helper functions ofcourse
19:23<mynetdude>thanks Pikka
19:23<fonsinchen>That's be quite some code duplication if you made two separate classes.
19:28<@Rubidium>hmm, technically Add/RemoveCache can be used for the case where feeder_share is manually updated
19:30<PeterT>is there a program to connect 2 servers?
19:30<PeterT>such as ! Luukland 1 and ! Luukand 2
19:32<@Rubidium>basically: http://rbijker.net/openttd/trickery.diff
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19:33<@Rubidium>moving the Add/RemoveCache functions to the VehicleCargoList/StationCargoList can technically be done with static_cast<Tinst *>(this), although that won't win any beauty contests
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19:35<fonsinchen>I don't quite get why that is necessary.
19:36<@Rubidium>I couldn't move Add/RemoveCache to Vehicle/StationCargoList without getting compile failures
19:36<@Rubidium>which is needed if I want to remove feeder_share from CargoList
19:36<@Rubidium>(but that can also be my inability)
19:38<fonsinchen>is that the problem with typename?
19:38<fonsinchen>try "typedef typename CargoList<xyz> Parent;"
19:38<fonsinchen>then you should be able to call Parent::RemoveCache
19:39<fonsinchen>or rather this->Parent::RemoveCache ...
19:40<@Rubidium>but CargoList<...> != VehicleCargoList, or is this some feature in templates I'm unaware of
19:41<fonsinchen>If you have the base version of RemoveFromCache implemented in CargoList and then a specialization in VehicleCargoList that does the feeder_share stuff you can call the base version from the specialized version like this.
19:42<@Rubidium>oh, that way
19:42<@Rubidium>but how does calling RemoveCache in e.g. CargoList::MoveTo call the RemoveCache from VehicleCargoList?
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19:43<fonsinchen>You may want to make RemoveFromCache virtual
19:43<fonsinchen>then it calls the correct one, otherwise it doesn't.
19:47<fonsinchen>Or, if you don't like virtual methods (lookups in vtable and so on) you may want to make two versions of MoveTo in StationCargoList and VehicleCargoList with utility functions in CargoList. If you call RemoveFromCache directly from MoveTo then it will also call the correct one.
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20:00<fonsinchen1>OK, I'll get some sleep now. Good night
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20:18<mynetdude>is there any way to upgrade the existing airport without tearing it down?
20:18<mynetdude>like build on top of it? I wan to build a larger airport but to do that would mean to build it on the other side of the city
20:19<mynetdude>I want to keep it connected to any rail stations as well
20:25<Sitethief>just demolish the current one and build a new one? whats the problem?
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20:25<mynetdude>$$$4
20:26<mynetdude>it doesn't say how much it is... and if my city will not permit a new one to be built then I'm screwed
20:26<Sitethief>press shift while building
20:26<Sitethief>and you can check the city status, if its anything above medirocre (iirc) it won't be a problem
20:26<mynetdude>what will that do?
20:27<mynetdude>ah ok
20:27<mynetdude>what does the shift do while buidling?
20:27<Sitethief>shift shows you buildign cost without building it
20:28<Sitethief>afaik
20:29<mynetdude>hmm ok
20:31<Sitethief>np
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20:35<mynetdude>ty :)
20:36<mynetdude>just have to do it when nothing is around and reroute planes to the new field
20:39<Sitethief{afk}>why reroute them? place the new airfield on top of the old and its will keep the same name, no planes need to be rerouted
20:44<Sitethief{afk}>mynetdude?
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21:03<mynetdude>Sitethief{afk} because you can't build on top of buildings?
21:03<Sitethief{afk}>demolish the old one,a build the new one at the same spot, its gonna have the same name
21:03<mynetdude>that is what I tried to do, but you have to demolish the old one first?
21:03<mynetdude>oh
21:07<mynetdude>well I got bored of the game, saved it for later
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21:13<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r17812 /trunk/src/ (cargopacket.cpp cargopacket.h): -Codechange: move the feeder_share cache from CargoList to VehicleCargoList; saves 512 bytes per station and 1-2% on CargoList::MoveTo.
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21:20<break19>I wish you could "expand airports" that way.. build a new on top.. If the airport is extremely busy, it may be damn near impossible to demolish the old one, as there will always be a plane at it..
21:20<@Rubidium>well... airports can't be expanded anyway when there's a plane on it
21:20<@Rubidium>so it wouldn't solve your 'there needs to be no plane on it' problem at all
21:21<break19>Rubidium: you're quite right, obviously, but there needs to be a way to put airports into "no landings" mode, happens all the time in the real world..
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21:23<break19>add an element to the airfield, possibly at the tower, it pops up a window with a "Service Airfield" button. click it, the airfield can no longer accept landings, any aircraft currently loading can finish loading and takeoff.
21:24<break19>then, when the airport is empty, demo/rebuild/etc
21:24<break19>afk again
21:27<Sitethief{afk}>just link all the plane routing together, send them all to one airfield, demolish, build new, reinstae old route, done
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22:01<Pikka><Rubidium> well... airports can't be expanded anyway when there's a plane on it <- they could be according to my spec :P
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---Logclosed Mon Oct 19 00:00:10 2009