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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-11-25

---Logopened Wed Nov 25 00:00:40 2009
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04:50<bartavelle>hello
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05:12<fjb>moin
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>wäääh
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>> Error: Assertion failed at line 1130 of /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTDx/cargodist/src/economy.cpp: v->load_unload_time_rem != 0
05:18<@petern>pfft, that's not trunk ;p
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it's not...
05:18<@Rubidium>and even fonsinchen isn't in here
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>how dare he!
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>can i post-mortem-debug this crash somehow?
05:20<fjb>Just remove that assertion. :-)
05:21<@Rubidium>not really as you need to know what caused that variable to be 0 at that time
05:22<@Rubidium>and the crash dump (if you have one; ulimit -c IIRC) only contains that the variable is 0
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05:48<@petern>hmm, is there a c++ library for dealing with ini files?
05:49<@petern>heh, sdl_config
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05:54<@Rubidium>ini.cpp? :)
05:56<@petern>hehe
05:59<Sacro>curse you makefile
05:59<Sacro>why do you keep eating my lex file
05:59<Sacro>flex -o acw.lex.c lex.c
06:00<@petern>Rubidium, it still contains ottd specific bits doesn't it?
06:00<Sacro>works fine if i run it, eats my input if the Makefile runs it...
06:00<@Rubidium>petern: true, only minor bits
06:01<planetmaker>Sacro: then check your rules in the makefile
06:01<Sacro>planetmaker: it's a very basic makefile\
06:02<Sacro>acw: acw.y acw.lex bison -d acw.y flex -o acw.lex.c acw.lex gcc -o acw acw.lex.c acw.tab.c -lfl -lm
06:02<Sacro>erm
06:02<Sacro>hmm
06:03<Sacro>http://pastebin.freeside.co.uk/16000
06:03<Sacro>is my makefile
06:03<Sacro>and \o/ for the number
06:03<JVassie>lol
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06:58<dihedral>Sacro, use maven2 + the maven flex mojo ^^
06:58<planetmaker>Sacro: I don't know flex. But my guess would be to swap the two filename parameters.
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07:00<dihedral>planetmaker, there are a few untranslated german strings ;-)
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07:00<dihedral>eh i mean, yeah you know what i mean
07:01<planetmaker>:-) You mean in the comic houses set?
07:01<planetmaker>I guess 11 untranslated ones.
07:03<dihedral>5 left
07:03<dihedral>i did the easy ones :-P
07:04<planetmaker>Gimme the whole diff for all 11 :-)
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07:05<planetmaker>Not sure that I care too much for translations so far - even though the translation system is the easiest I ever made for a grf ;-)
07:05<planetmaker>too much changes still :-)
07:06<dihedral>you want to tell me fund a town stings are from a grf?
07:06<planetmaker>oh. OpenTTD strings :-)
07:07<dihedral>what did you expect?
07:07<dihedral>:-P
07:07<@petern>town stings?
07:07<planetmaker>Comic houses translations, of course ;-)
07:07<dihedral>pfft
07:07<dihedral>i have not looked at any openttd stuff in a while
07:07<dihedral>just popped in to the translator website
07:09<dihedral>planetmaker, you have a link where i can swee what you are working on?
07:10<planetmaker>changed the other "found town" strings.
07:10<planetmaker>dihedral: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=45958
07:13<dihedral>oh man that is nice
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07:13*dihedral feels like playing again :-P
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07:15<planetmaker>:-)
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07:17<dihedral>now "all" you need to do is trees, ground sprites, trains, cars, ships, rails, airports, bus stops, docs, industries, water, stations, ....
07:18<dihedral>but perhaps you can find a way to simply 'convert' the existing spirtes :-P
07:18<@petern>planetmaker, 1st or 3rd
07:18<@petern>prefer 3rd
07:19<dihedral>i prefer second :-P
07:21<@petern>nobody asked you
07:21<planetmaker>he... Opinions are as diverse as there are people, I guess. Though dihedral is the first to say "2nd", I think :-)
07:21<dihedral>petern, who cares?
07:22<@petern>nobody cares
07:24<planetmaker>dihedral: I hope to get the whole comic set sprites. So... I'm not sure what to expect, though
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07:45<@petern>hmm, found a headerfile implementation
07:46<@petern>it's... 120KB... ouch
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08:02<thomas001>hi what do you think about a design like http://img1.abload.de/img/ottd2u1lw.png to manage traffic of the station, which comes from many different directions?
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>ask again when you increased the number of trains tenfold
08:07<thomas001>= your design sucks,but you will see that yourself as traffic increases?
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think roundabouts work well
08:08<thomas001>why?
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>too much blocking potential when switching lanes, and complete gridlock potential with a lot of trains
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>you mix incoming and outgoing traffic from the station, try to keep them separated
08:11<thomas001>hmm ok,i thought its a nice way to avoid building big junctions
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>lots of traffic planners fell into that trap :p
08:14<thomas001>we have some really nice street roundabouts here ;)
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>i loathe and despise roundabouts
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08:27*Rubidium wonders when people start making roundabouts like in http://maps.google.nl/?ie=UTF8&t=k&ll=51.893287,4.186215&spn=0.00115,0.003095&z=19
08:28<thomas001>Rubidium, thats a spiral? ;)
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08:29<@Rubidium>kindof yes
08:31<thomas001>mi favourite is http://www.fotofliegen.de/stadtteil-Dateien/riebeck.jpg . it always fun to drive there ;)
08:32<@Rubidium>that one got traffic lights... then they're no fun anymore
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it was way more fun 10 years ago ;
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>;)
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>they're even done with the construction work by now... it's really boring
08:40<@petern>that's pretty odd
08:41<thomas001>i like the arrows on the highway above it,telling the cars they are going in the right direction ;)
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know how often i have gone over those bridges, i never noticed those "arrows" :p
08:42<thomas001>next time you will ;)
08:42<thomas001>or the picture is outdated
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>must be > 1 year old, because they're rebuilding the bus station on the top right of the picture
08:46<thomas001>so Eddi|zuHause how does this roundabout handle high traffic? :D
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>i believe it once was one of the highest traffic locations in europe ;)
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>but you had on average like 3 accidents per day...
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>and now they put up traffic lights
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08:48<thomas001>the street planner must have gone mad,nobody understands his pretty roundabout ;)
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08:49<Eddi|zuHause>lots of street planners have gone mad on this junction over time :p
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>like 50 years ago, this was a 12-way-roundabout :p
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>they reduced that to 5 by building those bridges ;)
08:51<thomas001>it whould be nice if you could build this in openttd ;)
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08:55<@petern>GAH
08:55<@petern>this bloody library deals in char * :s
08:56<@Rubidium>what did you expect? java.lang.String?
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08:57<thomas001>wchar_t* ;)
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>i really don't know why pascal-strings are not more common... (i.e. length-prefixed instead of 0-terminated)
09:02<thomas001>c++ strings can be viewed like that
09:09<@petern>it's a c++ library
09:09<@petern>i'd expect std::string
09:09<Sacro>dihedral: is maven easy?
09:09<SpComb>doesn't every C++ framework have it's own string type that's better than std::string?
09:10<@petern>apparently
09:11<thomas001>SpComb, better is more like "better" ;)
09:15<@petern>qt has QString, heh
09:15<@petern>but i hate qt anyway, so that's no problem
09:15<TinoDidriksen>ICU has UnicodeString
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09:20<@Belugas>good morning
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09:25<thomas001>TinoDidriksen, i don't like UTF-16 strings as internal representation
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09:29<TinoDidriksen>I don't care what the internal representation is, so long as it works and can output in any encoding I want...which ICU can.
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09:37<thomas001>TinoDidriksen, you need to take care of surrogates in utf-16,which is annoying
09:37<TinoDidriksen>ICU does that for me.
09:38<TinoDidriksen>You need to take care of combining marks in any encoding anyway...even UTF-32 glyphs can span multiple elements.
09:38<dihedral><Sacro> dihedral: is maven easy? <- define easy??
09:38<TinoDidriksen>No Unicode format is safe to access as single elements.
09:39<dihedral>maven is not small, and it can get quite complex
09:39<dihedral>but a simple setup is easy yes
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10:00<Terkhen>hello
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10:03<ezra>what is the dev channel?
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10:05<dihedral>ezra, i do not think you want to go there :-P
10:06<dihedral>because if you did, you would not remain in there for very long
10:06<dihedral>at least i would not expect you to
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10:07<ezra>dihedral: why, is it full of bots talking to each other?
10:08<dihedral>no, you will most likely just be kicked if you entered
10:08<ezra>do they not want new developers to get involved?
10:08<dihedral>besides, this is the official #openttd channel, this is where you can meet the devs ;-)
10:08<frosch123>let's say, this is the dev channel
10:09<dihedral>ezra, i think it's up to them to decide who they consider an addition to the development team ;-)
10:09<dihedral>frosch123, nice one :-P
10:09<ezra>seems a little inhospitable
10:10<dihedral>well... not everybody can simply come and say they want to be on the dev team and expect to be acceppted with open arms
10:10<dihedral>it takes a bit more than that
10:10<dihedral>does not mean you cannot fix bugs and hand in your patches
10:11<ezra>i thought I'd start by lurking and seeing what kinds of issues were being discussed
10:11<ezra>maybe learn something about the codebase
10:11<dihedral>good start
10:12<dihedral>another good place to 'lurk' is tt-forums.net (the openttd section esp.) wiki.openttd.org and bugs.openttd.org
10:12<ezra>k
10:18<planetmaker>and everywhere the same people lurk :-P
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10:20<dihedral>odd :-P
10:21<dihedral>but i must say it's cute to see someone enter the channel (for the first time) and straight away request to talk to the devs because one wants to join the team :-P
10:21<dihedral>and only after that mention one could learn about the codebase
10:21<dihedral>well, at least he/she/it knew the word 'codebase' :-D
10:21<dihedral>way better than past experiences :-D
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10:50<@Belugas>ezra, you'll find more usefull infos in forums indeed ;) this room can be usefull sometimes, but not as much as forums
10:52<ezra>Belugas: OK; I'll check out the forums then... another day.
10:52*Forked < forum
10:53<fjb>Forked is smaller than the forum?
10:54<Forked>lesser than
10:54<@Belugas>[10:09] <ezra> seems a little inhospitable <--- would you expect anybody, perfect strangers to come in your home, just lurking in and there ?
10:54<@Belugas>heheh
10:54<@Rubidium>fjb: no, you have to dereference Forked first before you can do the comparison
10:55<fjb>Rubidium: Thank you, I missed the *. But what is a dereferenced Forked like?
10:55*Forked is not sure he likes where this is heading..
10:56*Rubidium has no clue
10:56<fjb>Now we know whta a referenced Forked is like.
10:56<Forked>a smeghead? :)
10:58<ezra>Belugas: on lots of channels, you can just join in. have you had lots of problems with trolls around here?
10:58*Forked lurks
10:58<@Belugas>hint: on 115 people, only a handfull ones are really active
10:58<@Rubidium>ezra: basically yes, and 'stupid' conversations when trying to discuss something complex
10:59<@Belugas>that too :)
10:59<@petern>bah
10:59<Forked>thats because people irc .. and people are idiots.. therefor most discussions on irc are stupid
10:59<@Belugas>like "hey, check that youtube"
10:59<@petern>"The collation (sorting) order used for sections and keys returned from iterators is NOT DEFINED. If collation order of the text is important then it should be done yourself by either supplying a replacement SI_STRLESS class"
10:59<@petern>by "NOT DEFINED" it means "alphabetical"
11:00<@petern>of course, i want it in the order specified in the config
11:00<@petern>maybe i should switch to this other ini lib...
11:01<ezra>I've been really impressed by the #haskell channel on freenode. They have 600+ people there all the time, and the discussion is really relevant and productive
11:02<ezra>they get trolls, but they almost deter them with love: they very energetically ask the troll questions until s/he gets frustrated
11:02<ezra>almost like trolling the troll!
11:02<@petern>games bring out a different class of internet annoyance
11:02<ezra>yeah, I suppose so
11:02<@Rubidium>#haskell has the benefit that most people there are coders in some sense
11:03<@Rubidium>#openttd is not that 'coder' centric
11:04<fjb>But #openttd is also very helpfull in coding things like refreshing your C skills.
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11:15<@Belugas>that's for your container, petern?
11:17*Belugas jsut had a "very nice" and "very productive" teaching session with a teenage underpaid american girl clerk trying to find out how to do a refund in our system
11:17<@Belugas>i just wanted to kick her big time
11:17<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18285 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Feature: show the expected arrival/departure dates in the timetable window. Based on work by PhilSophus.
11:17<@Belugas>learning curve is not steep, but you DO have to know how to learn, just a tiny little bit
11:18<Forked>next time kick her, see how that goes :)
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11:20<Xaroth>Belugas: http://www.xkcd.com/627/
11:21<Xaroth>last time somebody was being thick I printed that out and stapled it to his cublicle
11:21<Xaroth>cubicle, even
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11:24<@Belugas>Xaroth, is it work safe?
11:24<@Belugas>really work safe?
11:24<Xaroth>yes
11:24<Xaroth>it's a xkcd ep, nice flow-chart for those not pc-savvy
11:24<fjb>Teenage girl says it all.
11:25<@Belugas>lol
11:25<@Belugas>printed, Xaroth :D
11:26<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18286 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix (r18280): Number of platforms and platform length start with 1.
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12:24<@Belugas>i almost forgot it was time for lunch box massacre
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12:41<fjb>Poor lunch box.
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12:48<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18287 /trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp: -Fix (r17841): a not properly updated list caused reading just freed memory which caused buttons to not work as they should
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13:10<Xaroth>Belugas: I aim to please :)
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13:19<@Belugas>i aim and shoot
13:20<@Belugas>i like taking photos ;)
13:20<@Belugas>hehe
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13:35<Xaroth>:)
13:36<fjb>Poor photos get shot.
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i'm just scratching my head at r18285... wondering whether there's more to expect in that direction...
13:39<SmatZ>what "more" would you expect?
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13:40<Eddi|zuHause>like... more bits of the timetable management patch?
13:40<SmatZ>thanks for answer :)
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>synchronising the start times, spreading shared vehicles evenly, ...
13:42<SmatZ>well, I don't know if there are further parts going to be included
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r18288 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: catalan - 3 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: czech - 7 changes by SmatZ
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: dutch - 11 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: finnish - 19 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: french - 9 changes by glx
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15:31<George>Hi.
15:31<George>I try to make the code to skip parametrs on hard settings
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15:31<George>// drop parameter to 0 if difficulty level is hard
15:31<George> 32 * 9 07 A2 04 \7! 02 00 00 00 01
15:31<George> 33 * 9 0D 00 \D= FF FF 00 00 00 00
15:32<George>But forces the parametr to be always 0
15:32<George>what am I doing wrong?
15:33<Lakie>Shouldn't it be 09?
15:33<Lakie>I thought Action7 was only done on load, and action9 more often, don't remember off hand though
15:34<Lakie>Ah, wrong way round.
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15:43<frosch123>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=GrfLoadingStages <- yes, it has to be action 09
15:43<frosch123>with 07 it is too late
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15:46<Timbo>is there any where i can get hold of a prebuilt openttd exe (win32) that uses SDL?
15:47<@Rubidium>that's unlikely, why do you want to have a SDL build?
15:48<Timbo>to test a bug in SDL i unwittingly introduced
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15:49<@Rubidium>maybe, oh so maybe, glx can quickly make a binary
15:50<@Rubidium>although I'm not quite sure whether it'll be statically linked or dynamically
15:50<Timbo>i'd need it to be dynamic
15:50<Timbo>tia
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15:51<George>frosch123: Lakie: Thank you
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16:18<Bubba_D>anyone able to help a computer-challenged individual with the openTTD, more specifically with being able to use and transport ECS
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16:22<Bubba_D>hello?? anyone awake??
16:22<@Rubidium>yes
16:22<KenjiE20>zzzzz
16:22<@Rubidium>... but ... I don't know use ECS
16:23<@Rubidium>so no real reason for me to react, beside telling you that I won't be telling you the answer which isn't the answer you're looking for so it's totally useless
16:23<@Rubidium>maybe George knows enough of ECS to help you though
16:23-!-Brianetta is now known as Brianetta-laptop
16:23<Bubba_D>hmmm... ok ty, lol
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16:26<KenjiE20>quickest way to use ECS, would be to find the old wagons new cargos grf on the ingame content
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16:27<Bubba_D>ok, should i place that above the ecs to make it work or after them?
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16:29<KenjiE20>doubt it matters, these days, but beneath is the safe way iirc
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16:31<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18289 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Codechange: if using RTL draw the toolbar in the reverse direction so the buttons overlap 'nicely'
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16:32<Bubba_D>ty kenji, your assistance is appreciated
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16:33<KenjiE20>there's an example ECS map/flow diagram floating around on the openttdcoop wiki too, if you need it
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16:46<Prof_Frink>Nite_Owl!
16:46<Cutter>what is the default font for the english language?
16:46<Nite_Owl>Hello all
16:46<Cutter>the default french font is usually unreadable
16:48<Nite_Owl>Hello Prof_Frink
16:49<@Rubidium>the default font for english is the TTD font
16:49<@Rubidium>the default font for french is whatever your 'OS' tells us is the best
16:50<Cutter>Rubidium: the TTD font has no support for accents?
16:51<@Rubidium>not for the crazy mu that's on your keyboard (OSK)
16:51<Cutter>I beg your pardon?
16:51<@Rubidium>µ <- mu
16:52<Cutter>is that all?
16:52<@Rubidium>yes
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16:52<Cutter>what's the name of the TTD font for the config file?
16:52<@Rubidium>there isn't any
16:53<@Rubidium>might be OGFX has the µ
16:53<@Rubidium>haven't seen anyone interested enough to actually make (few) the missing characters for the other latin-ish languages
16:54<Cutter>I can't set the font to TTD with french language?
16:56<@Rubidium>yes (you can't) unless you remove the mu from the langfile
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17:08<Cutter>couldn't the game use TTD and replace missing characters with the system font?
17:09-!-Mark [~Mark@5ED06D96.cable.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:11<Cutter>by the way, how should I edit lng files?
17:11<Cutter>I get corrupted text using notepad, wordpad and openoffice
17:12<Cutter>even when I manually specify "UTF-8 encoding"
17:13<thingwath>most likely something that can handle unix newlines :)
17:14<planetmaker>Those files are compiled and not edited
17:16*Belugas retreats to some cousy environnement
17:16<@Belugas>called
17:17<@Belugas>home
17:17<@Belugas>night all
17:17<Nite_Owl>later Belugas
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17:23<planetmaker>night Belugas
17:24<Cutter>I have to recompile to remove this char in my lng file ?
17:26<+glx>just change font size in the config
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17:38<Cutter>it looks bad
17:38<Cutter>http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/118/nonnomm1erjan1950.jpg
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17:41<frosch123>Cutter: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/french.lng <- for 0.7.3 without "µ"
17:45<Cutter>frosch123: thanks
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17:55<+glx>try nighlies, windows handle font size in a better way
17:58<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18290 /trunk/src/timetable_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: be more strict about what vehicles may use timetables
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18:23<Terkhen>good night
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18:28<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18291 /trunk/src/ (date.cpp date_type.h): -Codechange: rework the calculation of the 'days till year' macro a bit so it can be properly reused and add a MAX_DAY
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18:37<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18292 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: add a command to set the start date of a timetable. Based on work by PhilSophus.
18:39<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18293 /trunk/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: add a window to set the date. Based on work by PhilSophus and Maedhros.
18:40<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18294 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt timetable_gui.cpp): -Feature: set the start time of a timetable
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19:10<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18295 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#bigos](r18283): Missed one PR_TERRAFORM.
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19:41<O----notas>Hi everyone, please, how can I enable logging to a file?
19:41<O----notas>I've tried DEBUG, or printf, but that goes to a console (Windows XP, compiled using MinGW.
19:41<O----notas>I've tried openttd -d 1 > foo.txt, but OpenTTD opens another console for stdout...
19:44<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~glx/convert.zip <- iirc you have to convert ottd to a console application
19:44<frosch123>(but i have no idea about windows)
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19:46<+glx>frosch123 is right :)
19:47<O----notas>frosch123, glx: Thanks, I will try that ;-)
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22:34<PeterT>night all
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---Logclosed Thu Nov 26 00:00:40 2009