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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-11-28

---Logopened Sat Nov 28 00:00:40 2009
00:05-!-mickster04 [~mike@adsl-87-102-81-105.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
00:07<PeterT>Yeah, I always had trouble with the libicu38 part :-)
00:07<PeterT>Oh, he isn't here anymore :O
00:10<Sacro>yeah he's gone to bed
00:13-!-zodttd [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd
00:19<SmatZ># Mama I'm Coming Home
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01:00<PeterT>Night
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01:29<Rakin>Which version of openttd uses the original ai
01:32<Rakin>Which version of openttd uses the original ai
01:32<Rakin>Which version of openttd uses the original ai
01:32<Rakin>Which version of openttd uses the original ai
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01:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
01:53<welshdragon>spammer
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04:47<Ch0Hag>Why would anyone want the original AI?
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04:49<@Rubidium>because they were better than the old AIs but not better than the current AI?
04:50<Ch0Hag>SO it's a step forward if and only if you're using an ancient version of openttd.
04:50<Ch0Hag>Which there's no need to do.
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05:10<Terkhen>good morning
05:10<planetmaker>moin
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05:19<planetmaker>hm... Sm4tZ gave me once a command line option which allowed to start openttd for <n> ticks and have it exit then. But I don't recall and I don't find it.
05:19<planetmaker>Any ideas?
05:20<planetmaker>background: I'd like to compare speed of different binaries
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05:34<@petern>using the null video driver
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05:40<planetmaker>ah. that was the trick. Thanks :-)
05:41<planetmaker>Completely different question, petern : Are you in possession of road tiles from the simutrans comic pak?
05:41<@petern>no
05:41<planetmaker>hm, ok. Then I was wrongly informed :-)
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05:45<planetmaker>do you still follow your road / track types idea actually?
05:49<Ammler>petern: didn't you once publish a hg repo with comic roads?
05:50<Ammler>he, sorry then planetmaker :-P
05:51<@petern>Ammler, yes i did, but i had drawn those myself
05:51<@petern>planetmaker, the code is all still there, waiting for someone to pick up on it
05:51<Ammler>well, those were nice, iirc ;-)
05:52<@petern>Ammler, they're still there
05:52<@petern>Ammler, but there wasn't a complete set of roads
05:52<Ammler>I guess, planetmaker has someone who would like to work on roads
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06:04<planetmaker>indeed.
06:05<planetmaker>Is there a public repo for those roads? Or would you mind to share them with me / with Auge for this purpose?
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06:25<Ch0Hag>Can you replace a vehicle with the same type, newly built?
06:30<Alberth>that's autorenew
06:31<Alberth>Hmm, wiki says little: http://wiki.openttd.org/Autorenew
06:32<Alberth>in the advanced settings, under the vehicles->autorenew, you'll find the settings
06:33<Alberth>an update of the wiki would be appreciated :)
06:34<Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_Settings/Vehicles#Autorenew more imcomplete discussion :(
06:35<Ammler>what is missing?
06:36<Ch0Hag>That works.
06:37<Ch0Hag>When do vehicles decide to renew themselves?
06:37<Ch0Hag>At least two of these crusty old buses have services themselves without being upgraded.
06:37<Ch0Hag>And two others got upgraded when I wasn't looking.
06:37<Ch0Hag>Renewed, sorry.
06:37<Alberth>why you want it, what happens, a picture, perhaps
06:38<Ammler>Ch0Hag: isn't that explained on the 2nd link Alberth posted?
06:38<Alberth>(12:38:18 PM) Ch0Hag: When do vehicles decide to renew themselves? <-- is that at the wiki?
06:38<Ch0Hag>Anyone who's ever played tt for more than 5 minutes knows why you want it.
06:39<Ammler>Ch0Hag: not everyone ;-)
06:39<Ammler>some disable breakdowns
06:39<Ch0Hag>Locomotion frequently gets to the point that I spend all my time renewing trains.
06:40<Ammler>how many trains can you have with locomotion?
06:40<Ch0Hag>I don't know. I never got that far.
06:40<Ch0Hag>I was always too busy renewing them o build new ones.
06:40<Alberth>well, a discussion of openttd.cfg variables is not the first that comes to mind when thinking about autorenew ;)
06:41<Ch0Hag>Yeah that seems more like it wouldn't be an advanced option.
06:41<Alberth>maybe you are an advanced player ;)
06:48<Ch0Hag>Probably.
06:48<Ch0Hag>If it were a marketable skill, I'd have enough experience to walk in to any job.
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07:03<Ammler>autorenew is a gui setting?
07:04<Ammler>or is that the old from "patches" time?
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07:14<Alberth>I don't understand thos questions. What is a 'gui setting'? what 'patches' do you refer to?
07:14<Alberth>*those
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07:26<Ch0Hag>Bloody typical.
07:26<Ch0Hag>Train 1 breaks down milliseconds after leaving the depot, so I tell train 2, which is now blocked, to ignore the signal.
07:26<Ch0Hag>And it goes into the depot.
07:29<Alberth>have some patience with trains :)
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08:25<_ln>omfg, someone has finally renamed "patch settings" to something more sensible
08:28<frosch123>what are you doing in this channel, if you haven't used ottd for a year?
08:28<frosch123>(more than a year)
08:29<@Rubidium>someone must have lived in a cave for a very long time...
08:29<SmatZ>hehe
08:30<Alberth>september 8, 2008: (svn r14275) -Change: Rename 'Configure patches' to 'Advanced settings'. to be precise :)
08:30<frosch123>wasn't it even backported?
08:30<frosch123>to 0.6.3
08:31<Alberth>no
08:31<_ln>frosch123: talking off-topic things, of course. and i haven't had time to play within the past year.
08:33<Alberth>possibly due to the swittch to the tree-ish view of the advanced settings.
08:33<_ln>besides, i tend to get kicked almost every time i talk something on-topic.
08:35<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r18310 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Introduce widgets for the names of the parts in the advanced face editing window,
08:38<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18311 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: no need to hardcode locations of some 'random' windows
08:40<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r18312 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Simplify the nested widget part arrays of both face windows, and move a bit towards merging.
08:42<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r18313 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Decide the size of the widgets displaying values of parts in the advanced face window dynamically.
08:43<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18314 /trunk/src/timetable_gui.cpp: -Fix: Disable 'start date' button for timetable windows of other companies.
08:44<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r18315 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Remove fixed minimal sizes of the other widgets in both face windows.
08:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r18316 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Introduce selection widgets to enable turning parts of the face window on and off.
08:48<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r18317 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Merge both face windows into a single window description and widget parts array.
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08:54<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18318 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: add an enum value for manual window placement
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09:07<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18319 /trunk/src/timetable_gui.cpp: -Fix: Timetable window wrt. big/small fonts.
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09:30<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18320 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Codechange: make the terraform and transparency window not use absolute location but manually calculate based on toolbar size etc.
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09:36<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18321 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3331]: make the toolbars also calculate their top location based on the main toolbar's height instead of hardcoding that
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09:42<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18322 /trunk/src/ (48 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: remove the WDP duplication; no need to tell the same twice.
10:00<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18323 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3330]: credits were drawn on the border of the window
10:02<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18324 /trunk/src/ (22 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: there's no need for a default size when the window isn't resizable
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10:12<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18325 /trunk/src/ (51 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Use GetSpriteSize() instead of hard {SETX}. Also make the 'current order'-arrow in order and timetable GUI RTL aware.
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10:21<TrueBrain>*burp*
10:21<TrueBrain>(just wanted to spoil the endless commits without any conversation)
10:21<_ln>good evening to you too, sir
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11:10<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18326 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Fix (r18325): Missing signedness conversion.
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11:26<SpComb>man, cargodist is hard
11:26<SpComb>the stations have like waaaay too many passengers
11:27<SpComb>but it still has annoying issues like if you build a tram station in a big town next to a major train station, then you've suddenly got 1500 passengers that all want to ride the 35-passenger tram
11:27<SpComb>a distance of five tiles or so
11:27<PeterT>Hehe
11:27<PeterT>that's cargodist for you
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11:30<SpComb>and figuring out the passenger flows is still a bit cryptic
11:31<SpComb>I've been using capacity vs planned flow so far
11:31<SpComb>(i.e. planned flow > capacity -> increase capacity)
11:32<Rakin>which version of openttd has the original ai
11:32<@petern>none
11:32<Rakin>what about 0.6.3
11:33<frosch123>0.6.3 has a broken old ai, if you mean that one
11:34<frosch123>maybe even two
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11:35<Rakin>where can i get a transport tycoon deluxe with the original ai which work in vista
11:35<frosch123>google for ttdpatch
11:36<Rakin>can u give me a link with ttd and ttdpatch
11:37<frosch123>sure: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ttdpatch
11:37<Forked>hehe
11:38<PeterT>www.ttdpatch.net
11:38<PeterT>Or use the broked AI :-p
11:39<PeterT> ^
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11:56<SpComb>and on top of it, said trams are earning negative amounts of money whenever they stop
11:56<SpComb>how the heck does that happen?
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>you are using transfers
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>it's not really negative, but you earn less than was previously expected when unloading at the intermediate stop
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>so for the last stop you earn (real amount) - (sum of all transfers)
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>which may be negative, especially if going backwards
12:01<PeterT>it's a strange system, yes
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12:12<Sacro>PeterT: irssi
12:12<PeterT>Thanks, I got it
12:13<PeterT>-Sacro- VERSION irssi v0.8.14
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12:31<Ch0Hag>Do town ever upgrade their bridges?
12:31<Ch0Hag>Wooden bridges are ugly.
12:31<Ch0Hag>(And slow)
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13:05<Eddi|zuHause>no, but you can overbuild them
13:06<SpComb>boo, are there no terminus-style tram stops?
13:06<SpComb>no
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>no
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>which is sad
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>anything to come in that direction will depend on the newgrf airports to be finished
13:19<PeterT>What's not finished about NewGRF Airports?
13:21<Alberth>close to everything
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13:22<Alberth>yexo made a first step, but haven't seem him a long time
13:23<Ch0Hag>So it doesn't so much need to be finished as started.
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>well, it WAS started (twice)
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13:35<Alberth>Ch0Hag: lots of projects get started here, but only few also finish
13:36<Alberth>(or get to a working state)
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13:42<PeterT>Alberth: Good way to put it
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r18327 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: catalan - 26 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 24 changes by josesun
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: greek - 30 changes by
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15:15<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18328 /trunk/src/ (44 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Remove last usage of {SETX} from strings.
15:24<frosch123>TrueBrain: do you feel like repairing wt3, if i break it? :p
15:25<TrueBrain>nope
15:25<TrueBrain>so don't break it :)
15:25<frosch123>can wt3 deal with stuff being removed from -export-commands
15:26<TrueBrain>dunno .. it should reload it once in a while, no idea if that would work
15:26<TrueBrain>try it :p
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15:27<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18329 /trunk/src/ (strgen/strgen.cpp table/strgen_tables.h): -Remove: [strgen] Support for {SETX} and {SETXY}. Let it rest in peace as NewGRF relict.
15:29<TrueBrain>Files /var/www/finger.openttd.org/scripts/strgen-updates/inst_dir/trunk/commands.txt and /var/www/finger.openttd.org/htdocs/strgen/trunk/commands.txt differ
15:29<TrueBrain>Files /var/www/finger.openttd.org/scripts/strgen-updates/inst_dir/trunk/version.txt and /var/www/finger.openttd.org/htdocs/strgen/trunk/version.txt differ
15:29<TrueBrain>at least that is picked up correctly :)
15:29<TrueBrain>no idea then what :p
15:29<frosch123>:)
15:30<TrueBrain>nope, WT3 didn't noticed it yet
15:30<frosch123>does it compile strgen itself? :o
15:30<TrueBrain>yup
15:31<TrueBrain>how else? :)
15:31<TrueBrain>it can ask you to do it, but that might lag too much
15:31<Zuu>Hi TrueBrain
15:31<Zuu>was you able to solve the bananas upload issue?
15:31<frosch123>dunno, it could wait for the nightly
15:31<Zuu>or did it even solve by itself :-)
15:31<frosch123>sorry truebrain for summoning you
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15:32<TrueBrain>Zuu: no idea; the error was completely weird
15:32<TrueBrain>frosch123: I wouldn't reply if I wouldn't want to :p
15:32<Zuu>TrueBrain: So you tried to upload yourself and it worked all fine?
15:32<TrueBrain>nope, didn't try
15:33<TrueBrain>and I want to bet if you try it now, it works :p
15:33<Zuu>Yea, probably :-)
15:33<TrueBrain>every time we restart django, it works ... and if it fails, it is impossible to find out why
15:33<TrueBrain>magic, I say
15:33<frosch123>Zuu: if you feel lucky, you can also try http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3333 :p
15:34<Zuu>hmm, that looks like development. I have given myself a development ban for the rest of the evening for having developed far to much the last days. :-)
15:34<TrueBrain>frosch123: weird .. despite the fact all notification went okay, WT3 never updated itself :(
15:35<TrueBrain>but okay .. SETX and SETXY are no longer valid commands
15:35<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18330 /trunk/src/ (32 files in 6 dirs): -Cleanup: remove some unneeded includes
15:39<frosch123>yeah, now we only need to silently remove the support for them from newgrf without anyone noticing :p
15:40<TrueBrain>just commit it, but don't let CIA announce it!
15:40<TrueBrain>silently enough?
15:40<frosch123>:p
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15:41<+glx>just make it not explicit ;)
15:42<TrueBrain>or ask Rubidium for a commit message :p
15:43<Zuu>There should be a method to escape commit messages so that they can not be understood by users :-)
15:43<TrueBrain>well, escape them! :)
15:44<TrueBrain>@base 36 2 RemoveSETXfromNewGRFsupport
15:44<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 10010010011110010001010111000000011100100001100111100000100001001011101101111011100111101100011110101010100001011101001110001011101010101001
15:44<frosch123>maybe, when the string codes are mentioned in decimal, no nfo coder would recognise them
15:44<@Rubidium>frosch123: 1 hex is still 1 dec
15:44<+glx>hehe
15:45<frosch123>ok, but at least 31
15:45*Hirundo proposes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemvigesimal
15:47<Zuu>Or jus Lojban / Esprento and hope that not too many people actually know them.
15:47<TrueBrain>"dambumirri dambumirri rulu" <- you got to love wikipedia :)
15:47<Zuu>use*
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16:08<_ln>so the Berlin wall wasn't always built exactly at the border, interesting
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: no, the wall was not on the border
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>it was well into east german territory
16:10<_ln>okay
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16:16<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> yeah, now we only need to silently remove the support for them from newgrf without anyone noticing :p <-- how about making it proportional to font size/other stuff? like make it a fraction of the width of <letter> (e.g. 'M'), where with the default font, that fraction gets close to 1?
16:16<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the only usage of setx i know of is indenting stuff in vehicle purchase list for oversized sprites
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and DanMacK threatening to use it all over the place ;)
16:17<frosch123>the second theoretical usage is to create columns in some kind of table, but haven't seen one yet
16:18<frosch123>but actually this topic has been discussed too much :p
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>i know, but it didn't come up with a solution
16:18<TrueBrain>Random stats: 1000+ users registers to OpenTTD.org webservices
16:18<TrueBrain>(wiki, bugs, BaNaNaS, translator)
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: so that's about 1% of the player base?
16:19<TrueBrain>have you count our player base?
16:19<TrueBrain>it is 1000% of the irc users of OpenTTD :p
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>i think Rubidium made an estimate recently
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>coming up with a number around 100.000
16:20<TrueBrain>then we first need to talk about what you define as 'player base'
16:20<TrueBrain>ever downloaded? Keeps updating? Plays more than once?
16:22<TrueBrain>either way, about << 10% who visit openttd.org has an account :)
16:22<TrueBrain>(14,000 unique people a day visit openttd.org)
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>interesting would be a uniqe visitors per year, but you can't really get stats about that
16:24<TrueBrain>nope
16:24<TrueBrain>even Google doesn't go that far :p
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>well, you can hardly track dynamic ips for more than one day ;)
16:25<TrueBrain>you could in theory track a /24 or so, and use User-Agent and surf-behavoir to match them
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16:26<Eddi|zuHause>i think my IP jumps more than a /24 every day
16:29<TrueBrain>I don't understand dynamic IPs in these days, but okay .. that is another story :p
16:29<frosch123>long life for ipv4 !
16:29<_ln>i have a dynamic ip that has been unchanged since june 2008.
16:30<TrueBrain>this week a company called and offered network hardware .. so I told them we require them to carry IPv6 (layer3 switches) .. it was silent for a moment, and the response: sorry, our switches do not support that. Well .. bye then!
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16:31<Eddi|zuHause>the ISPs here are not keen on switching to IPv6 either...
16:31<TrueBrain>no ISP is .. "customers do not want it", they reply
16:31<TrueBrain>well, I am happy to have our ISP IPv6 ready and serving
16:32<TrueBrain>although at first they did not want to give us a /48, but only a /96 ... after a long talk that lucky is a /64, still .. relatively small
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16:34<Eddi|zuHause>how many bits is it over all? 128? so you have still more addresses than the entire IPv4 space?
16:34<TrueBrain>yup
16:34<TrueBrain>but they also go a LOT faster :)
16:35<TrueBrain>you link 1 domain to 1 IPv6, as it was meant to work
16:35<_ln>is the IPv6 porn project already online?
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16:37<fjb>Naked IPv6?
16:38<_ln>there was/is a plan to offer good quality porn movies for download for free, but only through IPv6.
16:38<_ln>to make IPv6 more popular.
16:39<fjb>Hope they would not use stripped down IPv6.
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17:00<Eddi|zuHause>great story about an alternate universe, where germany actually LOST the 2nd world war: http://www.theonion.com/content/news/alternate_universe_sci_fi_channel
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17:01<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: are you thinking what I'm thinking, i.e. "huh?!?"
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>:I
17:05<_ln>are you thinking what I'm thinking, i.e. "theonion.com"
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17:08<Fast2>We did't lose it?
17:11<Fast2>Do you really use the word "panzerkampfwagens"?
17:12<frosch123>Fast2: try the abbreviation
17:14<Fast2>That's PKW (which means ""Personenkraftwagen").
17:15<frosch123>you must be living in a weird universe, if it means that
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17:17<Fast2>According to your nickname, I assume you're german, so you should know the meaning of "PKW"
17:19<frosch123>sorry, i was joking, you are right
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17:20<Fast2>Now I'm completely confused
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17:20<@Rubidium>nah, frosch123 isn't German... he's Deutsch
17:20<frosch123>does that matter in a worldwide nation empire?
17:21<_ln>besides, in a worldwide empire, is there even a need for a generalized term of a volkswagen?
17:22<_ln>due to lack of other brands
17:22<Fast2>frosch123: Ah, I reconstructed your mind.
17:23<frosch123>_ln: i guess you are mixing up german dictatorships. the article is not about the one with only one brand for everything
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18:38<|Terkhen|>good night
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18:54<SpComb>first long-distance electric train \o/
18:54<SpComb>and it's not even 1971
18:55<_ln>but odd 1971
18:55<@Rubidium>is that so odd?
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18:57<@Rubidium>like... I know a (relatively) long distance electric train in 1964
18:57<SpComb>yeah, I'm being slow
18:57<@Rubidium>(assuming 500 km can be considered long distance)
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19:02<Eddi|zuHause>the first electric long distance train in germany was the route Stuttgart-München
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>that was around 1937
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19:15<Eddi|zuHause>PS: 1971 actually IS an odd number ;)
19:17<FauxFaux>Heretic!
19:18<@Rubidium>SpComb: but... someone is even later than you are: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=120631
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19:25<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i think it was even earlier, 1933 or 1934
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>the connection Leipzig-Nürnberg[-München] was opened 1942, but there wasn't really any "long distance" passenger service during war time
19:29<@Rubidium>that depends on your description of passenger and service
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19:41<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18331 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp window.cpp window_func.h): -Fix [FS#3334]: news items would with some chat 'bars' not be displayed fully. Fix by erikjanp.
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20:00<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18332 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp signs_gui.cpp smallmap_gui.cpp): -Fix: the MSVC compile warnings
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20:54<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 29 00:00:40 2009