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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-12-02

---Logopened Wed Dec 02 00:00:40 2009
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00:57<Ch0Hag>I think the crashed aircraft 'cannot start/stop' error message needs to be changed.
00:57<Ch0Hag>Currently it says the aircraft is in flight.
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02:50<Terkhen>good morning
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03:56<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18369 /trunk/src/music_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3339] (rbeginning): off-by-one in the preconfigured music lists
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04:06<Eddi|zuHause>why do i have the urge to punch this "sapphire united" guy in the face?
04:11<@petern>you'd have to join the queue
04:12<@petern>it goes back a few years
04:13<@petern>there you go
04:21<planetmaker>hm.... what's the criterion for "last changed strings" in the web translator?
04:22<@Rubidium>trunk commits I reckon
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04:31<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18370 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: push some constness/type strictness into the ship pathfinders
04:45<planetmaker>Well... I don't see much relation between trunk commits and the "last changed strings".
04:46<planetmaker>or was there recently changed something like STR_FINANCES_REPAY_BUTTON ?
04:47<planetmaker>and others. hm... it says it was changed in r18325... hm. nvm.
04:47<planetmaker>the history ;-) I overlooked it. All the setx
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04:57<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18371 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: unify calling of the train pathfinders
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05:04<planetmaker>rowdy.... äh... hi dihedral :-)
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05:14<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18372 /trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/ (9 files): -Codechange: push some extra type safety into YAPF
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05:26<Eddi|zuHause>modifying yapf core... does not sound like a very fun task...
05:27<@Rubidium>it's mostly superficial stuff
05:27<@Rubidium>like changing Vehicle * with Train *
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05:44<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18373 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: unify some road pathfinder functions
05:47<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18374 /trunk/src/pathfinder/ (npf/aystar.cpp yapf/yapf.h yapf/yapf_ship.cpp): -Cleanup: remove some unused code
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05:50<Eddi|zuHause>grr... something must be done with the "vehicle endlessly waits for full load, because a passenger appears every second"
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06:49<@Belugas>"Almost Full Load"
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07:05<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: the problem is, the vehicle does not have a full load order
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: but in each loading step, it empties the platform, but by the next loading step, new passengers appeared
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>so it can never go, because there is always "cargo left to load", so it continues to load extremely slowly
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07:58<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: That is part of the nonreality of the game. A real vehicle would have driven off as soon at the driver watched new passengers arive.
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08:22<hackalittlebit>Hello folks, Is one of you guys willing to look at my signal on tunnel patch and able to see if it is causing desyncs in multiplayer mode (BIGOS hard server pack). The place where this could be possible is in "FindSpaceBetweenTrainsEnum"
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08:33<@Rubidium>I don't see something horribly obviously wrong with that function
08:33<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause, so what is blocking it?
08:33<hackalittlebit>thanks rubidium
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: in the time between the last loading step ["platform is now empty"] and the chech whether the train can go, new passengers appear, so the platform is not empty anymore, and the check for empty platform fails every time
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>this is most apparent for passengers, but might also appear for other cargos if multiple industries are in the catchment area
08:37<Noldo>it's a kind of race
08:38<planetmaker>in table/sprites.h:935-7 the comments don't really make sense (no hexes there). It's decimal there in that file and hex numbers in table/town_land.h
08:41<planetmaker>is there actually a reason the numbers in table/town_land.h are in hex or could they be converted to decimal?
08:42<planetmaker>or rather use the defined SPR_XXX from table/sprites.h ?
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08:56<@Belugas>hex take less space to right, are more meaningful and look awesome
08:56<@Belugas>right > write
08:59<planetmaker>he... not every hex number in town_land.h is referenced as decimal in sprites.h
08:59<planetmaker>so not every sprite has a name
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09:02<@Belugas>hey... who said trunk has always been consistent?
09:02<@Belugas>not me, for sure....
09:03<planetmaker>:-) I'm asking... I'm not yet understanding everything there and there certainly are connections I just don't see :-)
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09:41<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18375 /trunk/src/pathfinder/ (npf/npf.cpp pathfinder_func.h yapf/yapf_destrail.hpp): -Codechange: use Station::GetTileArea to get the tile area for CalcClosestStationTile
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09:44<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18376 /trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/yapf_road.cpp: -Codechange: simplify setting the destination
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11:20<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18377 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: add 'cache' of the tile area of truck and bus stops.
11:38<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18378 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: move the pathfinder 'length' constants to pathfinder_type.h
11:49<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18379 /trunk/ (12 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: move the cache updating function to its own header to reduce the include 'pathfinder' dependencies
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11:55<Hirundo> <- template parameter is named 'VehicleType', isn't that confusing?
11:56<Hirundo>since an enum named VehicleType (VEH_TRAIN etc) is already used
12:00*frosch123 wonders whether noone ever tried to share orders between buses transporting passengers and tourists
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>i never transported tourists
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>the concept of tourists as extra cargo is wrong...
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>either all should be passengers, or there should be a distinction between "outgoing" and "incoming" tourists
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>like a "travel bureau" industry that turns passengers into "outgoing" tourists, a tourist center that turns "outgoing" into "incoming" tourists, and the travel bureau turning "incoming" tourists back into passengers
12:09<@Rubidium>just make it a cargo subtype
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>but that has the problem that you need separate vehicles for the different tourists
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: yes, that's better for transporting them, but there need to be different ways to assign destinations
12:11<@Rubidium>well... then add business class pax too
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>the current system is not flexible enough to handle different "classes" of passengers
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>like differenciating passengers who would pay any price to get to the destionation "fast", vs. passengers who want to ride as cheap as possible
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12:36<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18380 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r9301): One could not share orders between buses carrying different cargos.
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12:37<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18381 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Add RoadVehicle::IsBus() to simplify some stuff.
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12:56<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18382 /trunk/src/pathfinder/ (npf/npf.cpp npf/npf.h yapf/yapf_road.cpp):
12:56<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Codechange: make road vehicles behave more like trains 'around' stations and
12:56<CIA-4>OpenTTD: use pathfinder penalties to determine to which 'part' to go. Note that the
12:56<CIA-4>OpenTTD: pathfinder penalties for drive through stops are currently only looking at the
12:56<CIA-4>OpenTTD: occupation of the first in a row, but this is to change later on.
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>i think rubidium is on a mission to undermine my arguments...
13:05<|Terkhen|>I like where this is heading :)
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13:12<Eddi|zuHause>at this point, i'd like to reemphasise an earlier request: choosing a platform/tramstop should attempt a lookahead towards the next station in the order list [if applicable]
13:12<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18383 /trunk/src/pathfinder/ (npf/npf.cpp pathfinder_func.h yapf/yapf_destrail.hpp): -Fix (r18375): triggering NOT_REACHED for some waypoints
13:14<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18384 /trunk/src/saveload/misc_sl.cpp: -Fix (r18351): attempt to 'work around' MSVC's IMO stupid warning
13:14<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that's probably going to be very tricky; even the train PF doesn't do that
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: yes, but the PBS reservations do that
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13:19<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18385 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: remove the now unneeded multistop slot management code
13:27<fonsinchen>doesn't r18384 revert the fix for FS#3333?
---Logclosed Wed Dec 02 13:32:49 2009
---Logopened Wed Dec 02 14:23:33 2009
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14:31<@petern>when was the mousepointer refresh rate dropped?
14:31<@petern>it's... irritating :s
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14:35<@petern>oh, 17776 i guess
---Logclosed Wed Dec 02 14:35:44 2009
---Logopened Wed Dec 02 14:35:44 2009
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14:37<nonsensical>hey, if I build a station next to a town and half the buildings are out of the stations reach, the station still gets passengers generated from those right?
14:38<nonsensical>or do I have to build and demolish around the town so more passengers are generated?
14:38<nonsensical>ie, extend the stations reach
14:39<CaptObvious>or run a bus service to the station
14:41<@petern>seems to work, dunno if it's right though
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>nonsensical: no, only buildings in the catchment area count
14:48<nonsensical>that's kinda annoying :/
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>nonsensical: try running busses that "load" ad the other end of the town, and "transfer and leave empty" at the station
14:48*Belugas checks for r17776
14:48<nonsensical>I spend a lot of time building the station and then building around the town to increase the catchment area
14:48<nonsensical>and demolishing the station parts in between
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>nonsensical: ever heard of the ctrl key?
14:49<nonsensical>what's it do in openttd?
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>everything ;)
14:50<planetmaker>hehe :-)
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>practically every button only gets useful with the ctrl key ;)
14:52<nonsensical>not sure how it helps, I have to double control click to change from station to demolish station, about the same just to click the demolish button if I've already got the station window open
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>nonsensical: try
14:52<nonsensical>also, when does the timer start for passengers
14:52<nonsensical>when they're initially loaded onto a vehicle? or when they spawn at a station?
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>once the vehicle starts moving, i believe
14:53<nonsensical>so yeah, using transfers in city is a lot more expensive than just expanding the station around the city
14:53<nonsensical>and demolishing the parts in between
14:53<planetmaker>you can delete a single house. and ctrl+build a station piece there
14:53<planetmaker>But using transfers is nicer.
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>nonsensical: the feature you are looking for is called "distant join stations"
14:54<nonsensical>that sounds like it
14:54<planetmaker>You could even go w/o demolishing. Just ctrl+build road stops and attach it to the station you desire
14:54<planetmaker>but that's kinda cheating.
14:55<@Belugas>looks right to me petern
14:55<nonsensical>stations have a wider catchment anyway
14:56<nonsensical>one thing I have been doing for larger cities where I need airports outside the city
14:57<nonsensical>is I build two airports seperated
14:57<nonsensical>and transfer passengers to one with trains, trains go to the other and pick up passengers transfered there
14:57<nonsensical>and return to the city for cash in
14:57<nonsensical>and the planes transfer to the second airport then pick up at the first and head out
14:58<nonsensical>lets you use the largest airports that way
14:58<nonsensical>only problem is if you build them on the wrong side of the city away from the final destination, your trains will get a lot of negative marks for doing the last mile
14:59<nonsensical>because they're carrying them towards their initial starting spot
14:59*planetmaker thinks it's a pretty inefficient way.
14:59<nonsensical>feel free to educate me :)
14:59<Eddi|zuHause><nonsensical> stations have a wider catchment anyway <-- the largest catchment counts, so if you attach a bus stop to a station, the 4 from the station is used, not the 3 from the bus stop
14:59<planetmaker>as said: If you want to go for the station-spread cheat: extend your train station or air port by drive-through road stops.
15:00<planetmaker>and station tiles (there can only be 8 road stops or so in one station)
15:00<planetmaker>drive-through road stops are "better" in that way, that they require no space to build - just build them on a town road
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15:03<@Belugas>Remove the TenderRetail naming as much as possble
15:03<@Belugas>Code change by removeing dead code
15:03<@Belugas>nothing really important
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16:05<Phantasm>Hiya. Is there any way to modify the number of engines or the car amounts on trains other than to fully manually do it? Eg. if there is dual head engine, how can I replace all within a group so that they will get the extra car they are missing when replaced to single head engine.
16:07<@Belugas>mmh... not sure if a method exist
16:08<@Belugas>in fact, i doubt it does
16:08<Phantasm>Or if I have a route between 2 cities that has say dual head engine with passenger capacity, 3 valuable, 3 mail and 6 passenger cars. And as city grows making more passengers and less valuables. To say single head engine + 1 valuable + 3 mail + 9 passengers.
16:08<Alberth>doesn't the autoreplace window have an option for that?
16:08<Phantasm>Alberth: It has option to remove excess cars (starting from front) when replacing single head engine to dual hed. Not the reverse.
16:09<Phantasm>And it allows replacing of all cars of same type into another type. But not modifying one design into another design.
16:10<Phantasm>Would be nice to have support of replacing all trains in a group into any new made set.
16:10<Alberth>I believe you immediately, I don't play the game that much
16:12<Phantasm>Belugas: Btw, improved loading algorithm fails when there is huge amount of items coming in. Say, having 10 000 items per month coming in and train capacity to move it all. The station ends up having few hundreds of the item at all times significantly lowering the rating.
16:13*Belugas does not feel concerned by the intervention of the Sir Phantasm
16:14<Ch0Hag>I don't think the longbridges patch is working.
16:14<Ch0Hag>Are there any odd requirements, like a minimum year?
16:15<Phantasm>Mostly the problem is only with very large cities. Might also become problematic when moving over raw materials from very many different places into single factory and then for the moving away the goods from the factory.
16:15<Phantasm>Also if there are multiple high producing raw material industries nearby, it can cause the problem with improved loading algorithm.
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16:17<@Rubidium>Ch0Hag: the wooden bridge should always be buildable at 100 tiles
16:17<Ch0Hag>I can get up to 14,.
16:18<Chrill>make sure there's no other newgrf including bridges activated??
16:18<Ch0Hag>Ah. So there is.
16:18<Ch0Hag>That's probably why they're so expensive too.
16:21<Phantasm>Belugas: So so.. Any idea if such feature is more advanced replacing of trains is coming? Or improved loading algorithm made to accout for the problem of very large item amounts per month?
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>that's to be expected when the grf is called "expensive and short bridges"
16:21<frosch123>Phantasm: there is a old console patch on the forums, which can do some of what you want
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16:23<Phantasm>frosch123: On which of the problem?
16:24<frosch123>there is some patch, which adds some console commands to add/remove wagons to a train
16:24<frosch123>but i never used it, so i do not know what it does exactly
16:27<@Belugas>Phantasm, i cannot answer, i'm quite a bit disconnected from deving currently
16:27<@Belugas>plus, last time i embarqued on a road trip with you, it last for so long it really got on my nerves
16:27<@Belugas>so consider me gone ;)
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16:47<planetmaker>test elsewhere
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17:16<@Belugas>bya all
17:16<@Belugas>slep tight
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17:45<Phantasm>Hmmn.. Millennium Z1 monorail dual head engine has 50 passengers which refits to 12 coal. While passenger car has 45 passengers and coal car has 35 coal.
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17:47<frosch123>the engines refits according to 4 passengers = 2 bags of mail = 2 crates of goods = 1 unit of other cargo
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18:25<Terkhen>good night
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18:53<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18388 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: move entering/leaving of road stops to functions of RoadStop
18:56<Dred_furst>ok random question, in openttd using the newGRF engine pool feature, how would I go about loading the default trains as well as an extended grf?
18:56<Chrill>they most often replace default trains, I believe..
18:57<Dred_furst>is there a way to stop that happening?
18:57<Chrill>one way COULD be, and this might turn out very buggy, to active two sets
18:57<Chrill>then remove the first one after starting the game with the two active
18:57<Zuu>I know there is a GRF that gives you the default road vehicles back. Not sure about rail wagons and locomotives.
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18:58<Dred_furst>the wagons aren't really an issue due to pikkabird's old wagons with new cargos grf
18:58<frosch123>Dred_furst: enable the advanced setting and load e.g. "old wagons, new cargos"
18:58<Dred_furst>okay two secs
18:58<frosch123>openttdcoop also has some "original engines" grf or so
18:59<_ln>time's up!
18:59<Zuu>Could be that grf I had in mind. "original" does however not give any relevant hits in the in-game content downloader.
18:59<Dred_furst>ok frosch123 that does the trick
19:00*Chrill hugs frosch123 for saving the day
19:00<frosch123> <- or that one
19:01<frosch123> (linked from here)
19:02<Zuu>Ideally it would be nice to have that one on Bananas.
19:02<frosch123>write your own in 5 minutes and upload it :p
19:02<Zuu>I'm a total noob when it comes to newGRF coding! :-)
19:03<Dred_furst>use pikkabird's old wagons with new cargos grf
19:03<frosch123>but actually "old wagons, new cargos" is more fool-proof
19:03<frosch123>though i do not know whether it adds all vehicles, or only those carrying some cargo
19:03<Dred_furst>it has all the vehicles
19:03<Dred_furst>I loaded it ingame
19:03<Dred_furst>(with my grf) and everything is there
19:03<frosch123>ok :)
19:04<fjb>Hm, I have a C problem again: I have typedef struct A which contains a pointer to B and typedef struct B which contains a pinter to A. How do I solve that recursive typedefs?
19:04<frosch123>fjb: c or c++ ?
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19:04<Zuu>Can you do forward declarations in c?
19:04<frosch123>then you need a forward declaration before the typedef
19:05<frosch123>e.g. "struct A;" or "struct B;"
19:05<@Rubidium>typedef struct Foo A; typedef struct Bar { Foo a; } B; struct Foo { Bar b; }; ?
19:05<frosch123>c also has the impressive construct of "typedef struct Atag { ... } A;"
19:05<frosch123>which declares the struct as A, but makes it available as Atag inside the struct :p
19:06<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18389 /trunk/src/ (roadstop.cpp smallmap_gui.cpp): -Fix: some minor documentation alignment issues
19:06<fjb>Ok, I will try that.
19:06<fjb>C is sometimes very strange.
19:06<frosch123>iirc the "typedef" has to appear at the real declaration, not in the forward
19:06<Zuu>frosch123: Is A an invalid value for Atag, or can ju just use the same?
19:06<frosch123>you can also use the same
19:07<frosch123>but one is only known inside the struct, and one only outside :p
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19:21<@Rubidium>frosch123: the good old days when the coding style was: typedef VehicleTypes { VEH_INVALID = 0x0, VEH_TRAIN = 0x10, ... } VehicleType;
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>what's the coding style now?
19:22<@Rubidium>enum VehicleType { ... };
19:22<frosch123>hmm, i would have to look that up in c specs, to understand the "VehicleTypes"
19:22<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it's more a c/c++ issue, than a style issue
19:23<@Rubidium>see e.g.
19:23<frosch123>hmm, i have only c++ specs on my desktop
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19:24<Zuu>Is it a new feature that you can move around the main window in the main menu?
19:25<@Rubidium>yes, lets qualify it as a feature
19:26<frosch123>well, i guess i do not know c good enough
19:26<frosch123>no idea, in which context "Birds" is used instead of "Bird"
19:27<@Rubidium>me neither, but apparantly some MSVC failed on it
19:27<frosch123>"Tab size is 2 spaces. Never use spaces as indentation at the beginning of the line." <- does not parse either
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19:28<frosch123>oh, i guess it means that the example is created with tab size 2 :o
19:29<@Rubidium>tab size is more or less irrelevant I guess; I reckon the intention was that with if (...\n\t\t... it was nicely aligned or so
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19:32<fjb>Stupid DSL... But the forward declaration worked.
19:32<fjb>Thank you.
19:32<frosch123>ah, seems like variables can be declared either by "enum Birds bird;" or "Bird bird;"
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19:33<Zuu>And at some point we might get enum classes too. But lets not start counting down yet. :-p
19:35<Zuu>There is quite some nice things in the c++0x. Though due to the size of it one can not be sure that it happens anytime soon.
19:36<frosch123>hmm, enum classes, i remember i needed them once, and was disappointed it did not work
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19:41<frosch123>yeah, enum forward declaration and specification of underlying type \o/
19:42<frosch123>however, it does not explcitly mention, whether you can define static methods and/or operators
19:43<Zuu>You mean static methods/operators that make use of the enums?
19:43<frosch123>declared in the scope of the enum class
19:43<Zuu>Oh, I would be surprised if that was possible.
19:43<frosch123>or default constructors etc
19:44<Zuu>But that would indeed be an interesting possibility.
19:44<frosch123>well, if you have strongly typed enums, you need conversion operators
19:44<@Rubidium>hmm... do I see a replacement for SimpleEnumT in that FAQ?
19:44<frosch123>Rubidium: YES :)
19:45<frosch123>Zuu: e.g. ottd has some macro to declare postfix increment for enums
19:46<Zuu>postfix increment?
19:46<frosch123>oh, and of course that article does not mention enum inheritance
19:46<Zuu>Ah, ok
19:52<Zuu>The last thing I read was that they will take two more years before the specification is done. But lets do as they tough us on the project management courses, multiply the estimated time by PI. :-)
19:52<@Rubidium>and then it's still an estimate, so it will never be finished :)
19:53<Zuu>hehe :-)
19:53<@Rubidium>for what it's worth I don't see C++0x happen
19:54<Zuu>The list of things they have come up with looks very big to me. = will take a lot of time to get a specification, and then to have all the compilers brough up to the new standard.
19:55-!-mode/#openttd [+o DorpsGek] by ChanServ
19:55<@Rubidium>so still half a dozen years before we can actually start using it in e.g. OTTD
19:55<frosch123>evening DorpsGek
19:56<Zuu>Yea, MSVC will probably as always take its time to get settled with the new standard. And we will get new inconsintencies between compilers.
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20:04<@Rubidium>ooh... very few servers :)
20:05<Zuu>That is indeed not many. And there is only a few servers that do not have any company on them. Though the client counts are quite low.
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20:07<@Rubidium>well, it's more the masterserver that got rebooted
20:15<Zuu>Good night
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---Logclosed Thu Dec 03 00:00:42 2009