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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-12-03

---Logopened Thu Dec 03 00:00:42 2009
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02:47<Terkhen>good morning
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03:24<CIA-4>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18390 /trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp: -Fix (r17776): [SDL] Reinstate pointer update on 'idle' loop.
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04:57<bartavelle>hello
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05:16<planetmaker>anyone knows how I can teach awk to print every field in a line _except_ the first one?
05:17<Noldo>I'd do that with cut
05:18<bartavelle>yup, anything but awk
05:19<planetmaker>well... But I basically want what renum does except the syntax parsing
05:19<planetmaker>e.g. number certain lines
05:19<planetmaker>in my case it's basically real sprites (they match /sprites/ ) and some recolour sprites where I hope to get away with /*/
05:21<bartavelle>i find it more productive to use perl after the problem is complex enough to warrant a look at awk or sed manpage
05:21<bartavelle>saves time in the end
05:21<bartavelle>but this doesn't help you
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05:25<planetmaker>well... not directly indeed. I've no clue about perl, but little about awk :-)
05:25<bartavelle>sed -e 's/^[^x]*x//' filename
05:25<bartavelle>where x is your separator
05:25<bartavelle>for the first question
05:26<bartavelle>I'm not sure this helps as I have no clue about the renum command
05:28<planetmaker>Don't mind renum. http://paste.openttd.org/219463 <-- That's my input. I want consecutively numbered those lines which contain either a "*" or "sprites"
05:29<planetmaker>skipping all different lines
05:29<planetmaker>those lines which get numbered need their first number (the wrong line numbers) removed
05:29<bartavelle>not printing the other lines is what you mean by skipping ?
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05:29<planetmaker>Printing them as is
05:30<planetmaker>w/o modification
05:30<bartavelle>ok, just removing the numbers
05:30<planetmaker>changing the numbers :-)
05:30<bartavelle>ok :)
05:32<bartavelle>http://paste.openttd.org/219464
05:32<bartavelle>does that behaves like you expected ?
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06:43<planetmaker>bartavelle, thanks. How do I invoke perl with that, though?
06:44<bartavelle>perl file.pl yourinput
06:44<bartavelle>or perl file.pl < yourinput
06:44<bartavelle>or with | perl file.pl
06:48<planetmaker>let's see :-)
06:50<planetmaker>cool. Seems to do the job. Thanks :-)
06:53<DaleStan>planetmaker: The perl script looks good, but if it goes wrong, and if you can get away with //@@LINT OFF as one of the first lines, NFORenum not lint your file. But it might insist on a sprite 0, whether you like it or not.
06:54<planetmaker>I think I don't want @@LINT OFF as I subsequently want these files parsed by nforenum
06:54<planetmaker>Basically I want to beautify the base set files
06:54<planetmaker>Currently they have a wild collection of arbitrary sprite numbers
06:55<planetmaker>Which makes finding particular sprites a pain.
06:55<planetmaker>But thanks for that tip - might come in handy at other places :-) I understand it correct that LINT OFF disables correctness checking then?
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07:07<DaleStan>-l- (or the long form: --lint=off) should work, then. NFORenum will insist on adding a header whether you like it or not, though. And yes. Turns off the checking completely.
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07:12<planetmaker>cool. Thanks. I don't mind the typical NFO header - those files have that anyway.
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07:13<planetmaker>hm... but is there a way to tell renum not to stumble about lines like
07:14<planetmaker>762 sprites/pcx/trains/toyland_railwagons.pcx 150 72 09 16 20 OFF_X_EW OFF_Y_EW
07:14<planetmaker>where there definitely IS an error in nfo terms?
07:15<planetmaker>(but which I want to preserve; thus it should treat it as if it was correct)
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07:45*planetmaker wonders: will it now be possible to add together more than the 8? 16? road stops to a HUGE station?
07:45<planetmaker>Like train stations aren't limited in size by anything but the station spread either.
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08:13<Phantasm>Uhm.. Max speed of last vehicle entering the station gives rating boost.. But the rating % given for the boost is 0% to 17 %. So, is the maximum rating from top speed gained already by train of 259 km/h speed? So that no further speed addition gives any benefit. And as for airplanes that should give slowest airplane the max bonus already, right?
08:14<frosch123>planesspeed is not necessarily km/h
08:15<frosch123> case VEH_TRAIN: t = Train::From(u)->tcache.cached_max_speed; break;
08:15<frosch123> case VEH_ROAD: t = u->max_speed / 2; break;
08:15<frosch123> case VEH_SHIP: t = u->max_speed; break;
08:15<frosch123> case VEH_AIRCRAFT: t = u->max_speed * 10 / 129; break; // convert to old units
08:16<frosch123>so maybe "last_speed" is in units of "8 mph" for aircraft
08:16<Phantasm>I wonder why road vehicle speed is divided by 2...
08:16<Phantasm>Well, at least it makes it so that road vehicles never ever give speed boost to rating.
08:16<frosch123>the speed units are all different
08:17<Phantasm>Well, what are the speed units then?
08:17<frosch123> int GetDisplaySpeed() const { return this->cur_speed / 2; }
08:17<frosch123>every vehicleclass has its own GetDisplaySpeed
08:17<frosch123>which returns the speed in kmish/h unints
08:18<Phantasm>Ok. So, road vehicles and trains use the real km/h for the rating calculation. How about ship and aircraft?
08:18<frosch123>"last_speed" uses the original units, which can be found e.g. in newgrf specs
08:19<frosch123>grep yourself :)
08:19<Phantasm>I don't have the sources.
08:19<frosch123>http://svn.openttd.org/trunk/src/ship.h <- liar!
08:19<Noldo>:D
08:20<Phantasm>I don't have the sources != I couldn't get the sources.
08:20<blathijs>The man has a point :-)
08:20<Noldo>blathijs: which one?
08:21<Phantasm>Ok, so ships use doubled speed for station rating.
08:25<frosch123>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks#Custom_station_rating_calculation_145_ <- you could also take a look there
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08:27<Phantasm>So so.. 1 % unit rating boost for every {train&road 10.24|ship 5.12|air 132.096} km/h above {train&road 85|ship 42.5|air 1096.5} km/h.
08:27<frosch123>which is generally spoiled by wagon speed limits
08:28<Phantasm>Is it taken from wagon or engine max speed limit?
08:28<frosch123> case VEH_TRAIN: t = Train::From(u)->tcache.cached_max_speed; break; <- that is the minimum of all max_speed of the train
08:29<Phantasm>Ok, so theoretical lowest limit is taken.
08:30<Phantasm>But if the train were to be too heavy for it to achieve the max speed or for other reasons wouldn't ever achieve it, it would still get bonus for the theoretical lowest limit.
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes
08:30<frosch123>which might be fun with andy's log raft, where speed decreases while loading :p
08:31<Phantasm>While loading?
08:31<Phantasm>Isn't train at still while loading?
08:31<Phantasm>Speed decrease from load level perhaps?
08:32<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=823951#p823951 <- no, i mean a ship. it is slower when loaded
08:32<Phantasm>How far away from town center does statue give the 10 % boost?
08:32<Phantasm>Yes, so speed decrease from load level.
08:33<Phantasm>The vehicle is still when it is being loaded - while loading.
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but isn't that basically the same as in TTDPatch where freight trains have higher speed limit when empty?
08:33<frosch123>no idea, i do not know such details of ttdp
08:33<Phantasm>Normal OpenTTD without any newgrf etc doesn't have wagon speed limits?
08:35<frosch123> if (Company::IsValidID(st->owner) && HasBit(st->town->statues, st->owner)) rating += 26; <- it does not depend on the distance at all
08:35<+glx>Phantasm: it has, but default wagons don't
08:35<frosch123>just click with the landquery tool on the station sign's tile to get the local authority
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08:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: what if the station sign moved?
08:36<Phantasm>So, station sign tile with no local authority doesn't get benefit. :/
08:36<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: or a new town is funded? :p
08:37<Phantasm>New towns don't get funded on OpenTTD without newgrf?
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>i thought it was just "town which the station derived its name from", and has nothing to do with local authority
08:37<+glx>it's not a newgrf feature
08:37<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: good point
08:38<frosch123>you are right, the station does not change when funding new towns or moving the station sign, so the statue does not change either
08:39<Phantasm>So, does statue affect even if there is no local authority but only the name from town far away?
08:40<frosch123>yes, it is the name of the town in the stationname, independent of distance
08:41<Phantasm>I would assume custom names don't affect? ;)
08:42<frosch123>just click on "default name" :p
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08:48<Phantasm>Meh.. For some reason I'm getting a feeling that maglevs are only good for lowering running costs.. ;P
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08:49<Phantasm>Same for monorail.. ;P
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08:49<Phantasm>Or well, in non-temperate there isn't asiastar so monorail has real value.
08:50<Phantasm>Up from the 160 max speed of turner turbo to the above 255 of station rating bonus limit.
08:51<Phantasm>Well.. Running costs as well as managing time (needs less track as a single pair of tracks can haul some 40 000 units of items per month on maglev 2).
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08:52<Phantasm>Huge effort for building a good station system for loading and unloading (as well as some for depots) but very little effort for making suitable tracks on the actual route.
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08:53<Phantasm>Around 10 days for maglev 2 to load goods, move 128 squares and unload goods. (2 engines, 26 cars)
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08:55<Phantasm>Given that the payment value drop is negligible on tims of less than around 50 days for entire route. And for not so easily spoilable goods even longer time is fine. Of course with routes significantly over the limit of default map size there is difference.
08:56<frosch123>ok, at least "max_speed" is stored in the savegame, so no desync for the log raft
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08:59<frosch123>however, it keeps the high speed when empty for the whole loading process
08:59<frosch123>(not worth changing)
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09:06<Phantasm>Maglev accelerates (and brakes) faster than other trains further easing the running costs. Less trains needed for entire route. And more trains can travel the single pair of tracks.
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09:12<Phantasm>Though, train running costs are so negligible that it probably isn't worth the cost of buying new engines.
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10:13<TrueBrain>@load wt2
10:13<TrueBrain>@whoami
10:13<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: I don't recognize you.
10:13<TrueBrain>bitch
10:13<planetmaker>wt2?!
10:14<TrueBrain>@load wt2
10:14<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
10:14<TrueBrain>@load openttd
10:14<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
10:14<TrueBrain>@reload XMLRPC
10:14<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
10:14<TrueBrain>@reload XMLRPC
10:14<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
10:14<TrueBrain>@openttd commit
10:14<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by peter1138 :: r18390 trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp (2009-12-03 08:24:39 UTC)
10:14<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Fix (r17776): [SDL] Reinstate pointer update on 'idle' loop.
10:14<TrueBrain>good boy
10:14<TrueBrain>who is a good boy
10:14<@DorpsGek>I AM I AM I AM
10:14<planetmaker>:-D
10:14<@Rubidium>a 10 point forfit for you for stating the obvious myth!
10:15<fonsinchen>@bitch
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10:27<@petern>hmm?
10:27<@petern>oh, just bot-fiddling
10:27<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18391 /trunk/src/ (gfx.cpp spriteloader/grf.cpp): -Fix (r0): (Invalid) GRFs could trigger invalid reads.
10:28<@Rubidium>petern: the bot didn't quite recover from last night's power dip
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11:20<fjb>C mystry: Why does this loop never end? http://paste.openttd.org/219502
11:20<@Rubidium>cause val isn't changed?
11:21<@Rubidium>hmm, or am I making a stupid comment here?
11:22<fjb>but (val & AT91_SPI_SR_ENDRX) is not 0.
11:22<fjb>And I tried it also without the !, which obviouly also never ends.
11:23<@Rubidium>are you sure it is that snippet that causes the problem and not something that calls that snippet in a loop?
11:24<fjb>I am sure. It hangs there. gcc bug?
11:24<@Rubidium>looks too obvious of a bug to not be noticed; what version are you using?
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11:27<@Rubidium>what's the definition of that constant?
11:27<fjb>Hm, you were right. The loop really ends. But where is the never ending loop around it then? Thank you for the hint.
11:31<SmatZ>(val & AT91_SPI_SR_ENDRX));
11:32<SmatZ>you aren't casting it to long
11:32<SmatZ>so it may be printing garbage from stack
11:32<SmatZ>unless val is long ;)
11:33<fjb>It is int, which is the same as long on that machine.
11:33<fjb>But an explicit cast could not hurt portability.
11:33<fjb>But then, on another machine the whole thing will not work anyway. It is part of a SPI driver.
11:34<@petern>i like uint32_t, etc
11:35<bartavelle>that kind of behavior should not happen
11:35<bartavelle>smaller data types should be promoted
11:35<SpComb>has there been any effort to document the tick-based/date-based nature of OpenTTD's various behaviours?
11:35<SpComb>that is, which actions are date-based, which actions are tick-based
11:35<fjb>As Rubidium hinted the loop indeed ends and there must be another loop somewhere around it.
11:36<bartavelle>(was talking about that casting statement)
11:36<@petern>bartavelle, not as va args list
11:36*fjb also likes uint32_t and uses it where ever possible.
11:36<bartavelle>oh !
11:36<bartavelle>hum
11:37*fjb goes searching for a loop.
11:40<@Rubidium>just do an assert in that loop and see what gdb says
11:42<bartavelle>or "man backtrace" if you are into printf debugging, it will let you print a stack trace
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>hm... very bad news...
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>apparently somebody stole my tuba...
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>along with my friend's car around it...
11:44<fjb>That is really bad news.
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12:07<SpComb>http://qmsk.net/~terom/openttd/daylength/variable-daylength-2-r18389.patch
12:07<SpComb>4.2K, touches under 10 lines of code
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: that's fine, but it doesn't touch any of the problematic side-features like having running costs/year exceed the buying price, exploding production etc.
12:10<SpComb>sure
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12:11<SpComb>it's maximum benefit with minimal changes
12:11<SpComb>the next step would be to chart out how those various algorithms work, and then figure out what needs to be changed to be tick-based, and what needs to be date-based
12:12<SpComb>nothing like running costs/production actually changes, the only thing that changes is the difference beteween ticks and months/days
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12:12<Eddi|zuHause><SpComb> the next step would be to chart out how those various algorithms work, and then figure out what needs to be changed to be tick-based, and what needs to be date-based <-- of course, everybody said that exact same phrase for over 3 years now ;)
12:12<SpComb>quite
12:13<SpComb>but changing the DAY_LENGTH is one thing that you'd have to do in any case
12:15-!-bartavelle is now known as bartaway
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: imho you should start with non-gameplay-alternating things that can go into trunk providing the flexibility to improve on them... e.g. replacing DAY_TICKS with a static inline function
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>and then convince a dev to include that ;)
12:16<frosch123>[18:33] <SpComb> but changing the DAY_LENGTH is one thing that you'd have to do in any case <- nope
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: anyway, the last time i used a daylength patch, it had problems with overflow in the saveload code for "when next AI starts"
12:17<SpComb>those need to be looked at
12:18<SpComb>anyways, what it's meant to be is just a better version of Sacro's daylength patch
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>because 2years*365days/year*74ticks*daylength easily exceeds 65535
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12:22<SpComb>frosch123: why would you not want to change DAY_LENGTH?
12:23<frosch123>you could as well also run the economy and esp. newgrfs in some virtual time, and only apply the factor when printing dates or introducing engines
12:23<SpComb>things like running cost just need to be measured in the same unit as train movement is
12:25<frosch123>well, running costs in the gui would then only apply to 1/2 year, or 1/4 year, but the ratio between income and cost would be maintained
12:25<SpComb>and for example, if you change DAY_LENGTH, it doesn't affect how much you get paid for cargo delivery, because cargo ages every x ticks
12:26<SpComb>industry production is currently x units / 255 ticks
12:26<SpComb>but running costs are currently in actual years
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12:35<SpComb>but similar to chrissicom's daylength patch
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12:41<Eddi|zuHause>imho, both production and delivery prices should be scaled down by daylength
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>in such a way, that the yearly profit stays the same
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>the town growth and the rating decay must also be looked at
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with scaling down income is that you need a smaller currency unit than 1£
12:45<@Belugas>1$
12:45<@Belugas>hehe
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>all this causes huge waves, which is why no daylength patch has reached trunk quality...
12:45<SpComb>that's the debate, myes
12:47<SpComb>and the main thing to avoid is spreading 'daylength' code out into everything else
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: you won't achieve anything like this...
12:49<SpComb>the only thing I've achieved so far is simplifying part of the code from older daylength patches
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: with daylength patch you basically have three problems: 1) you need to touch too much code, 2) you need a useful specification of the behaviour, 3) everybody wants the feature to behave differently
12:52<SpComb>you need to a) figure out what's tick-based and what's time based b) abstract the code such that it doesn't need to know how many ticks there are in a day
12:52<SpComb>and given, a) is a matter of opinion in many cases
12:53<SpComb>vehicles move at a certain speed, and the date advances at a certain speed, everything else is measured in relation to either of those
12:54<@Belugas>ho ho... i have a desire to try to fix something in OpenTTD... well... fix... big word...
12:54<fjb>I found the surrounding loop. And I have a hint why it never terminates. The best debugging tool is an oscilloscope.
13:01<frosch123>yeah, bugs cannot stand the ray
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13:11<@Belugas>blup
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13:12<Dakkus>Hwooo?
13:12<Dakkus>I am completely lost on how I should install cargodist.
13:13<Dakkus>I am running the newest nightly on linux i386.
13:13<Dakkus>Could anyone help me get my addiction back?
13:13<SpComb>download patch, download appropriate version of trunk, read wiki, compile
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13:16<planetmaker>alternatively: search the corresponding thread and download a binary which suits you
13:16<+glx>I guess linux binaries are rare on the forum
13:20<Dakkus>Okk...
13:20<Dakkus>So, I have tried this git thing.
13:20-!-Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has joined #openttd
13:20<Dakkus>It always seems to hang in the same place, resulting in:
13:21<Dakkus>Cannot obtain needed object 0c3d44822083645bdaaeb796ddf0f15da6bd1c76
13:21<Dakkus>while processing commit 2229cb53c11498c25090bfe06ea36c16b1e13c43.
13:21<Dakkus>fatal: Fetch failed.
13:21<Dakkus>
13:21<Dakkus>Huraa.
13:21<@Rubidium>is that from fickfoo?
13:21<Dakkus>Yup.
13:22<Dakkus>lencha@donkerwit-jr:/media/disk/ottd/openttd-trunk-r18387-linux-generic-i686/git$ git clone http://fickzoo.com/fonsinchen/openttd.git
13:22<@Rubidium>then there's not much 'we' can do about it because fonso/fonsinchen isn't here at the moment
13:22<Dakkus>Ok, apparently zoo, not foo.
13:22<Dakkus>If somebody could just throw me with the files.
13:23<Dakkus>I can then hunt the appropriate nightly of ottd.
13:23<@Rubidium>http://fickzoo.com/fonsinchen/patches/current/ ?
13:24<Dakkus>Should I then download all those many files one-by-one.
13:24<Dakkus>?
13:24<@Rubidium>only trunk-cargodist.diff I tihnk
13:25<Dakkus>Installing the cargodist is one of the wordt UI disasters of all mankind :D
13:25-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
13:25<Dakkus>worst*
13:26<@Rubidium>huh?
13:26<+glx>it's as other patches
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13:29<Dakkus>Yup.
13:29<Dakkus>It
13:30<Dakkus>'s just, normally you don't really need to do something like this.
13:31<fjb>Patches are not for ordinary users.
13:31<@Rubidium>that's because you want something that isn't released as something stable/finished
13:35<@Belugas>heheheh... random tree setting doe snot mean random type of trees..simply random placement...
13:38<FauxFaux>Doe snot.
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>anybody got a heightmap of central europe(-ish)?
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13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18392 /trunk/src/pbs.cpp: -Fix (r13956)[FS#3345]: [YAPP] Trains on bridges were not found, when searching for the origin of a reservation. (Hirundo)
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r18393 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 2 changes by josesun
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: german - 3 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: portuguese - 10 changes by JayCity
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: romanian - 22 changes by kkmic
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14:15<fjb>Never read the errata section, it is scary.
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>is that anything like knowledgbase entries for windows updates? :p
14:18<fjb>Don't know. I never read knowledge base entries for Windows updates.
14:19-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
14:22<Dakkus>Hmm. Sometimes it happens that mothers call.
14:22<Dakkus>Anyway, so, how do I merge the .diff file to the actual source code?
14:23-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@220.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
14:23<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: doesn't windows update's expert thingy link to KBs?
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know...
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't updated my windows in years ;)
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14:24<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: well, basically they read like "fix exploitable buffer overflow/code injection"
14:25<fjb>The erratas are more scaring.
14:30<Alberth>Dakkus: with a patch program usually
14:31<Alberth>Dakkus: for SVN diffs you can also use tortoisesvn, i have heard
14:31<Dakkus>Hö? http://fickzoo.com/fonsinchen/patches/current/TRUNK_VERSION.txt says r18368, but I can't find such a trunk in http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/
14:31<planetmaker>trunk. not nightly
14:32<planetmaker>use svn
14:32<@Rubidium>because nightlies are snapshots of trunk taken every 24 hours... and trunk isn't updated once every 24 hours but every time a developer commits something
14:32<Dakkus>Ääähmmm...
14:33<Dakkus>Since when is in develepment supposed to really mean that the product is not ready to be shipped?
14:33<Dakkus>;)
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14:33<Alberth>Dakkus: I have been running trunk only for years ;)
14:33<Dakkus>Would be so nice if the diffs were against nightlies.
14:34<Dakkus>Or even better, if there was a cargodist for a release.
14:34<fjb>Patches are not for ordinary users.
14:34<Dakkus>I know.
14:34<Dakkus>That's why it would be nice if something readier or easier could be figured out.
14:35<Alberth>Patching against a random revision *is* easier ;)
14:35<fjb>It will be easier when developing is done. Then the code is stable.
14:35<Dakkus>Not really understanding much about actual developing, although I do know about programming, I wonder why so many other non-ready things can be just downloaded and installed with the OTTD internal tool, but this one can not.
14:37<fjb>You can load a halve ready song on your mp3 player, but you have to take your solder iron to put a bigger display on it.
14:37<Alberth>makes little sense, most of our users don't have a compiler at their system, and without it, there is nothing you can do with a .patch file
14:38<Dakkus>Ah well. Maybe cargodist is not such a crucial thing for some other people :)
14:38<Alberth>also, almost all patches are broken in some respect, that's why they are still patches instead of being integrated in trunk
14:38<Dakkus>I was constantly playing ttd from 1995 to the beginning of 2009.
14:39<Dakkus>Then I got bored of some stuff and tried simutrans.
14:39<Dakkus>..which was lacking some other stuff.
14:39<Dakkus>But, now with cargodist I seem to have the Perfect Game.
14:39<Dakkus>Just, installing cargodist has been made a tad bit overly difficult..
14:39<Alberth>it should keep you happy for the next decade :)
14:40<Dakkus>(By not doing anything to help installing it, which is of course acceptable. A developer doesn't have to make a really public release if he doesn't want to)
14:40<Dakkus>Alberth: I believe so ;)
14:40<Alberth>A developer may not have the platform you have, for instance
14:40<Dakkus>(And my girlfriend unhappy)
14:40<Dakkus>(for the next decade=
14:41<Dakkus>)
14:41<Dakkus>What, linux?
14:41<Dakkus>Eveh if he himself doesn't, many other able developers do.
14:41<Dakkus>But hey, to underline: I am not really complaining about how people are doing thigs.
14:42<Alberth>'what linux' is a better description, there are about 40-50 distributions
14:42<Alberth>:)
14:42<Dakkus>Instead, I am complaining of the destiny being evil to me.
14:42<fjb>Why should other developpers care for what you demand instead of developing their stuff further (which will make many more people happy beside you).
14:42<Dakkus>I am not trying to see that someone is guilty for there not being an easier way. People are doing stuff on their free time and can't be forced to anything :)
14:43<Dakkus>Alberth: Well, openttd.org has a thing called "generic linux binary".
14:43<Alberth>building a patched OpenTTD at a Linux system is dead easy
14:43<Alberth>oh? never used that
14:43<Dakkus>Making one version of the patch against the latest release or a predefined nightly would make things easier.
14:43<fjb>Instead of complaining you could start to learn.
14:44<Dakkus>Too much stress in life.
14:44<fjb>Too much stress to helt people unwilling to learn.
14:44<fjb>help
14:44<Dakkus>That's precisely why I am not complaingin about the developers, but rather about the cruelty of life.
14:44<Dakkus>;)
14:45*planetmaker yawns
14:45<Alberth>Dakkus: http://wiki.openttd.org/GNU/Linux#Most_current_version_.28aka_Trunk.2FSVN.29
14:45<Dakkus>I have no problems accepting that just like I have no time for developing this part of OTTD, no other people have, either.
14:45<fjb>So you say we should not listen to you? That is an easy to full fill wish.
14:45<Dakkus>Hehe :)
14:46<Dakkus>Yeah, nobody should not listen to me if they don't want to :)
14:46<planetmaker>or you could really learn these 5 easy steps or so.
14:46*Dakkus already loaded the page
14:47<Dakkus>I think I'll just patch something and publish the source in the thread.
14:49<Dakkus>Ha! Found a diff made against something that had also become a nightly! :)
14:50<Dakkus>17718, from October.
14:50<Dakkus>Now there's no need to install SVN, which would eat up quite a part of the few tens of megs that I have free on my SSD and that I really need for my swap.
14:51<Dakkus>I think I will also uninstall git. It ate up almost 9 MB.
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14:58<Eddi|zuHause>you should really consider compiling on a "real" computer ;)
14:59<Xaroth>that wouldn't be fun
14:59<Dakkus>Oh frogging hell.
14:59<Dakkus>Can't compile anything on this computer, because there is no compiler and no disk space for installing a compiler.
15:00<Xaroth>lol wut?
15:00<Xaroth>what kind of pc is that?
15:00<Dakkus>An eeepc 4G...
15:00<Xaroth>ah
15:00<Xaroth>eeepc :/
15:00<Dakkus>I am pretty much out of money, so this was the only thing I could afford and I really needed a computer of some kind to read my email.
15:01<Dakkus>Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
15:01<Dakkus>/dev/sda1 3.5G 3.2G 109M 97% /
15:02<Dakkus>Well, I could of course try installing g++ and then uninstall it after compiling ottd...
15:03<Dakkus>After this operation, 37.0MB of additional disk space will be used.
15:03<Dakkus>Dangnit :P
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15:16<Dakkus>Wheww! Got through the dependencies and still have some 20 MB of space free.
15:17<Dakkus>After the make I'll see if things start working and if they do, I can get playing.
15:17<Dakkus>Oh, and in between of course remove g++, sdl and their dependencies.
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15:20<fjb>And be aware of the bugs in older cargodist releases.
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15:30<thermal2008>Hi, when playing openttd I noticed the sawmill only accepts wood from the center tile. Some of the other industries accept their items from any graphic square. is that correct?
15:31<Alberth>apparently, that is how the industry is coded.
15:31<Alberth>(in its NewGRF file)
15:32<thermal2008>ya, just wondering if it was a bug.
15:32<thermal2008>the old grf were used
15:33<Dakkus>/tmp/ccHPX2vf.s:6309: Fatal error: can't write depot_gui.o: No space left on device
15:33<Dakkus>Frrrgghhhh...
15:33<Alberth>afaik 'New' only means it is extended with additional stuff since the original version
15:34<Alberth>Dakkus: remove the IRC program, takes way too much space :p
15:34<Dakkus>Ghehe :)
15:34<fjb>And not only that...
15:35<thermal2008>there is 8 tiles for the sawmill, and it accepts wood from the center. I don't believe that is consistent with the other industries
15:35<Alberth>you are allowed to believe that :p
15:35<frosch123>thermal2008: use the "land area information" tool to test which tiles accept
15:36<Alberth>you can also change it by making a new NewGRF for it :)
15:36<frosch123>you need to collect 8/8 acceptance inside the station catchment
15:38<thermal2008>i understand, I tested using land area information. The houses accept passengers, and one of the squares accept wood
15:38<thermal2008>i didn't know it was that detailed
15:38<thermal2008>thanks guys
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16:05<Chris_Booth>hello there
16:05<Chris_Booth>has anyone seen the client list in lastest nightly (r18387)
16:06<Chris_Booth>is that accidental or have it been broken?
16:06<Chris_Booth>it is impossible to use
16:08<frosch123>what's wrong with it?
16:08<Chris_Booth>you cant read the names on it
16:09<Chris_Booth>as it is the wrong dimentions
16:09<+glx>screenshot?
16:10<frosch123>yeah, it does not resize
16:10<+glx>and latest is 18393 BTW
16:12<@petern>hmm, when not using autorail, placing horizontal tracks to the right requires the pointer to be nearly off the next tile in some cases
16:13<@petern>and dragging to the left selects the next tile too early
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16:16<SpComb>Dakkus: compiling OpenTTD will take up a lot of disk space
16:17<SpComb>about 250MB or so
16:17<SpComb>at least with debug
16:17<frosch123>hmm, how useful, loop over all clients to collect the longest name, and then throw the value away :p
16:19<SpComb>Dakkus: but if you want to use development code, you need to be a developer :)
16:19<SpComb>...or a lazy windows user
16:21<teeone>250MB is alot of space?
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>is there a python module for solving simple 3D equation systems?
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, i can program that within half an hour, but the question is if i am faster searching for that ;)
16:23<SpComb>teeone: if you have a 4GB "SSD", yes, or if you keep a dozen compiled versions of OpenTTD around
16:23<teeone>hehe
16:24-!-Mark [~Mark@5ED06D96.cable.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008103100]]
16:24<teeone>SSD's are starting to come down
16:24<teeone>eyeing the 120GB one when it gets a lil cheaper
16:25-!-thermal2008 [~x@bas1-toronto50-1279678956.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:28*planetmaker wonders how it looks like, if a super star destroyer comes down :-P
16:28<SpComb>80GB of SSD should be enough for anyone
16:29<teeone>not really ;) not ifyou want to install games to it
16:29<SpComb>assuming you can sensibly move stuff between it and a normal disk
16:29<planetmaker>[22:17] <frosch123> hmm, how useful, loop over all clients to collect the longest name, and then throw the value away :p <-- lool. Don't tell me you do it in OpenTTD ;-)
16:29<planetmaker>SpComb: 640kByte should be enough RAM for anyone :-P
16:29<teeone>ha
16:29<frosch123>planetmaker: it has been like that for several 100 revisions
16:30<frosch123>and _you_ did not notice
16:30<planetmaker>:-O
16:30*planetmaker was busy with OpenGFX :-P Does that count?
16:30<SpComb>planetmaker: it would be people wrote good code!
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>don't blame me, i never play online...
16:30<SpComb>or not just good
16:30<SpComb>I only play co-op online with some friends
16:30<frosch123>and some random #-guy turns around, and complains the nightly is broken :p
16:31<planetmaker>SpComb: I can easily imagine zillions of apps which won't fit in there with their data stack ;-)
16:31<planetmaker>regardless of the code quality
16:31<teeone>didnt the old commodore64 have 64kb of ram
16:32<@Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/need_smaller_font.png :)
16:33<frosch123>:p
16:33<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you see, your guesses are quite bad recently
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>:)
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>hey, it only means i'm not a prophet after all
16:35<planetmaker>nice, Rubidium :-)
16:35<frosch123>and now sit down, and increase the 64k vehicle limit till tomorrow
16:37<@petern>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/smallfont.png
16:37<@petern>^ like so?
16:37<@petern>(although i didn't bother setting it up)
16:37<frosch123>too big
16:37<@Rubidium>yeah, that would probably help
16:37<@Rubidium>although the ^ and v images are still too big
16:50<Zuu>Non OpenTTD-question: Why do g++ complain about:
16:50<Zuu>std::set<std::string>::iterator i;
16:50<Zuu>std::string& s = *i;
16:50<Zuu>Of course it will fail at runtime, but why does it complain about a const assignment even if a non const_iterator is used?
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16:57<Alberth>sets need constant values most likely
16:58<Zuu>Hm, makes sense actually. Well I guess I have to use something else than a set then.
16:58<Zuu>MSVC of course have no problem with it. :-)
16:58<Zuu>Or well it has a problem, it does not complain about things that are not okay according to the standards.
16:59<Alberth>those are called 'enhancements' :p
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17:05<@Belugas>got to go
17:05<@Belugas>night
17:07<@Rubidium>night Belugas
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17:34<Dakkus>SpComb: Luckily only some of the space had to be on the internal HD. I am installing the game on a memory stick, anyway. The actual problem was with the dependencies, but being dev dependencies, they can be removed when the program's installed.
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17:46<teeone>openttd uses 0.02% of my cpu while im playing it..thats incredible
17:46<Zuu>Nice, automake "forgot" to generate some rules.. :-)
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18:04<Zuu>Night
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18:12<Terkhen>good night
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18:29<Dakkus>My Openttd functions and the cargo now has meaningful destinations.
18:30<Dakkus>Unfortunately publishing the patched source was not possible, because of missing hard drive space for the tarball...
18:30<Dakkus>But still, I am very content and shall keep playing for another decade.
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18:35<fjb>Silence...
18:39<SpComb>publishing patched source is kind of silly
18:39<dihedral>it's kind of silly not to even have 3mb of space left :-D
18:39<SpComb>that too, but it's more understanable
18:39<SpComb>e.g. student user quotas on my uni's system are a whooping 200MB
18:40<SpComb>about half of which goes to your firefox profile
18:41<dihedral>even on those you have /tmp for creating the tar
18:41<dihedral>and then you can upload it somewhere
18:42<SpComb>but it really sucks if you're trying to develop some medium-size C++ project
18:42<SpComb>(+dep libs with debug syms)
18:42<fjb>But who cares for the patched source of cargodist from October?
18:42<SpComb>people who don't want to install svn
18:43<dihedral>hehe
18:44*SpComb had a go at fixing vehicle running costs for daylength
18:44<SpComb>which isn't very important in the end
18:44<SpComb>I think I'll try and find a way to slow down town growth, and then playtest with that myself
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18:53<TrueBrain>I say: lalala
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19:46<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18394 /trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/yapf_road.cpp: -Fix (r18373): one couldn't manually send a RV to a depot... but why compilers haven't complained about this?
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20:09<Eddi|zuHause>oh how i wish i had a decent scripting language in openttd...
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20:09<Eddi|zuHause>... or even pasting into the openttd console...
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20:24<sparrL>Is there a way to force OpenTTD to use a full-screen resolution that SDL doesn't return on the list?
20:24<sparrL>in Windows, if that matters
20:25<@Rubidium>maybe if you set fullscreen and the resolution in the config file?
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>you can try setting it in the config file
20:25<sparrL>did, the game un-sets fullscreen
20:27<@Rubidium>then there's hardly anything 'we' can do about it and it's limited somewhere in SDL I reckon
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20:30<sparrL>I was hoping for an undocumented config or command line option
20:30<sparrL>The problem is, I think, that OpenTTD is validating the resolution with SDL before trying it.
20:30<sparrL>I want to skip that step, because my video driver and display support resolutions that they claim not to (as most do)
20:31<sparrL>most 1280x1024 LCDs support 640x512, as do all of the major video drivers... but no games offer it without some tweaking
20:34<@Rubidium>then maybe skip GetAvailableVideoMode?
20:35<sparrL>I am not quite put out enough by this problem to try solving it on my own. Not on Windows, at least, since I don't have any sort of toolchain here. I might try to tackle it when I am back on my development (Linux) box.
20:35<@Rubidium>though my opinion is that SDL should 'just' return that as valid resolution, but then I'm annoyed of its behaviour w.r.t. resolutions anyway
20:36<+glx>are you sur you are using SDL?
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21:06<DaleStan><planetmaker> hm... but is there a way to tell renum not to stumble about lines like... <-- Does //@@REALSPRITES COMMENTOFF do what you want?
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---Logclosed Fri Dec 04 00:00:44 2009