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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-12-11

---Logopened Fri Dec 11 00:00:54 2009
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02:38<sparr>what fjb said
02:38<sparr>only 4 hours later
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04:07<bartavelle>hello
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04:18<Terkhen>good morning
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04:36<edeca>Morning
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06:01*peter1138 bug hunts opengfx
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06:21<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18455 /extra/website/frontpage/templates/frontpage/about.html: [Website] -Add: mention of the officially supported OSes
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>did you remove osx yet? :p
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06:24<@Rubidium>no, didn't add Mac OS X 10.6 though
06:24<blathijs>And Windows? :-)
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>windows is not as horribly broken as its reputation ;)=
06:26<TrueBrain>And debian?
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06:34<blathijs>TrueBrain: I'll upload a new version next week, if that's what you're referring to :-)
06:34<blathijs>Being a tad busy with my graduation presentation, which next monday...
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06:35<Eddi|zuHause>hm... should i be worried about having a "skynet.sys"?
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06:38<TrueBrain>blathijs: concratz ;) (on the latter, not the former)
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08:10<Fast2>Good afternoon
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08:37<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18456 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: make the length checking functionality of CmdMoveRailVehicle a separate function and simplify the logic
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09:02<@Belugas>hello
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10:16<CIA-4>OpenTTD: yexo * r18457 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix (r18015): southwest and northeast buttons for freeform edges were swapped
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10:18<fjb>Hm, how can I force 4 byte alignment of a variable in C?
10:18<@Rubidium>doesn't that automatically happen?
10:18<@Rubidium>unless you enable packing
10:20<fjb>gcc complains that packing is not needed. uint32_t is correctly aligned. But I fear that uint8_t x[3] or something like that may have an uneven alignment.
10:21<@Rubidium>why does it need to be 4 byte aligned?
10:21<@Rubidium>i.e. what do you want to do?
10:21<fjb>I want to cast a void * to a uint32_t *.
10:22<Yexo>I can't htink of a valid reason either, but if you really need to the syntax for gcc is: __attribute ((aligned (4)))
10:22<fjb>Yexo: Thank you.
10:24<fjb>I have an array of type uint_8. At one place a pointer to that gets casted to a void * and that to an uint32_t *.
10:25<Yexo>you do realisze that if the size of the array is 3 then you're doing an illegal memory access?
10:26<Yexo>and if the array is size 4 or bigger, then the worst that can happen is that you do an unaligned memory get, while maybe slow it's valid
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10:50<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18458 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: make the 'check train length' code of CmdMoveRailVehicle a separate function
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11:02<fjb>Yexo: That was a bad example. The array is bigger.
11:04<fjb>But I have the problem that *(uint8_t *)voidptr = byte_variable works, but *(uint32_t *)voidptr = long_variable doesn't.
11:06<fjb>But the uint8_t array is already long aligned. I just looked where it is located in memory.
11:06<Yexo>how "it doesn't work"? Does it compile?
11:06<Yexo>isn't it big/little endian that has you confused?
11:07<fjb>It compiles without warning or error. But the memory which the voidptr is pointing at does not change.
11:08<fjb>Bir or little endian would just swap the bytes. *voidptr is 0x00000000. byte_variable is 0xff. long_variable is 0x0000ffff.
11:09<fjb>In case of the *(uint8_t *)voidptr = byte_variable; *voidptr changes to 0x000000ff.
11:10<fjb>In case of the *(uint32_t *)voidptr = long_variable; *voidptr remains 0x00000000.
11:10<Yexo>and ou do cast to uint when examining the voidptr?
11:10<fjb>Yes.
11:11<@Rubidium>what if you cast the long_variable to (uint32_t) first?
11:11<fjb>My actual solution is to cast void_ptr to uint8_t * anc copy byte wise in a for loop.
11:12<fjb>Rubidium: No difference.
11:12*Rubidium still doesn't get what fjb wants to actually do though
11:12<Yexo>have you tried creating an intermediate uint32_t pointer? ie something like uint32_t *newptr = (uint43_t*)void_ptr; *newptr = long_var;
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11:13<@Rubidium>copying some array into another? Then why not memcpy?
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11:13<fjb>Yes, I also did that. But *voidptr still did not change.
11:14<fjb>I wanted to avoid a subroutine call.
11:14<@Rubidium>anyhow... give us some actually code, not snippets, so we can see for ourselves if you want to get some proper answer fast
11:15<Yexo>I'd assume that on most compilers memcpy would be inlined anyway
11:16<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18459 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: move the new train validity checking (attach callbacks) to a separate function
11:18<fjb>Then inlined code could be faster.
11:21<fjb>Here is the code: http://paste.openttd.org/220203
11:23<Alberth>not to mention that compilers may have generate code for doing memcpy() as fast as possible
11:24<fjb>Line 505 reads a uint32_t and one char, short or long has to be copied to *rx_data
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11:40<Alberth>where do you print the void * result?
11:41<Alberth>in particular, do you print data from the place where you wrote it ?
11:45<fjb>line 535... in this version. I have a look if I still have the not working version.
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11:55<fjb>Here is the older version: http://paste.openttd.org/220205
11:55<fjb>Lines 432ff and 507ff.
11:56<fjb>Both are only working in case of bpst == 1
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11:58<fjb>But memcpy would be the best solution, I guess.
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12:17<xopek>hi
12:17<fjb>Hi xopek
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12:21<xopek>to expand the menu of signals, openttd patch should?
12:22-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f6aa4.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
12:22<_ln>master yoda!
12:23<fjb>Quak frosch123
12:23<frosch123>moin fjb
12:23<xopek>I do not know how to say angel. only to understand:)
12:24<xopek>s/angel/english/
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>sed you obviously know ;)
12:24<xopek>yep
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>so, what are you asking?
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>i have a patch somewhere that adds two signal types to the menu
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>if that's what you want
12:28<xopek>yes. this :-)
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>they won't magically get new functionality, though ;)
12:32<xopek>hm. In the instructions for use written about the 6 types of semaphores. Here I would get them.
12:32<xopek>google translator breaks sometimes.. :-)
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still not sure what you mean...
12:35<@Rubidium>especially because the stable already has 6 types of signals
12:35<xopek>just do not was included menu signals...
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>so you want to show the signal menu?
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>that's in advanced settings -> interface
12:36<xopek>just include a menu of signals. while no more questions :-)
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>hm.... dd_rescue is cool, the disk is totally in the toilet, but it still has no read error...
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13:02<Eddi|zuHause> 5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0033 001 001 005 Pre-fail Always FAILING_NOW 1384
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13:17<fjb>Alberth: memcpy is 3µs slower than my for loop at 2byte transfers.
13:18<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: Oh, oh...
13:18<Alberth>2 bytes a time is pretty much nothing
13:19<Alberth>ie it is 1/2 a register
13:19<fjb>But more bytes are not needed, most times just one byte. Sometimes maybe 4 bytes.
13:19<fjb>Yes, but the ADC has "only" 16 bit.
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>so i have 60kb of unreadable data
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>problem is, part of that data seems to be a directory
13:20<frosch123>16bit adc, only saw 8/10/12, and slow 24
13:21<fjb>frosch123: A fast 16bit ADC: http://www.linear.com/pc/productDetail.jsp?navId=H0,C1,C1155,C1001,C1158,P2497
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>why is there no ntfsck?
13:22<fjb>LTC 1867
13:23<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: because that's called chkdsk
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: does that run under wine? :p
13:24<frosch123>[19:22] <Eddi|zuHause> why is there no ntfsck? <- i have
13:24<frosch123>never ran it though :p
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>where does that come from?
13:25<frosch123>most likely from "emerge sys-fs/ntfsprogs"
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>version?
13:27<frosch123>2.0.0-r1
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>hm... "ntfsundelete --optimistic"
13:29<frosch123>hmm, maybe it just does "nothing" though
13:29<frosch123>(google suggests that)
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>my repository only has 1.13.1
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13:40<fjb>A simple if () costs almost 1µs. :-(
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r18460 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 4 changes by josesun
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: croatian - 59 changes by UnderwaterHesus
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 34 changes by Zhygometh
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13:49<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18461 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r18456): when moving a wagon from the front of a train one could make a train 1 longer than allowed
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14:17<xopek>hm
14:17-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
14:19<xopek>at the level of "hard", with the appearance in the game AI begins to brake. why?
14:27<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: really, I think you should never again touch HDs .. somehow you always break them
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>actually, this one was broken for ages, i just never connected it again
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14:28<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18462 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: when moving a wagon and only the last part of a dual headed engine you could split the dual headed engine over two vehicles.
14:28<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18463 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: some simplifications for finding the end of a vehicle
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15:03<DarkED>you guys have got to see this station i've been working on
15:03<DarkED>it's pure insanity
15:04<DarkED>http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd275/darkusedius/OpenTTD/massiveopenttdstation.jpg
15:04<DarkED>19 platforms and it still cannot handle all the volume (i'm still getting some queueing)
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>from this description, i am not inclined to see this station
15:06<DarkED>why is that?
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's a) insanity, and b) a .jpg
15:06<_ln>19 tracks would only be a mid-size real-life station.
15:07<DarkED>so? it's a jpg? what's the problem?
15:07<_ln>(the previous line was not intended for readers in Québec)
15:07<DarkED>_ln, i know, but in openttd that seems kinda massive
15:08-!-sparrL [~kvirc@71.16.116.2] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:08<_ln>jpeg is a lossy format.
15:08<DarkED>_ln, yes and it's also a low-filesize format considering
15:08<DarkED>my monitor is 1080p... that doesn't make for small pngs
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>DarkED: jpg removes all straight lines from pictures
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>DarkED: computer screenshots consist to 100% of straight lines
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>DarkED: so jpg remove 100% of information from screenshots
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>plus, you downscaled the picture
15:10<@Rubidium>http://wiki.openttd.org/Screenshot#Screenshots_for_forum_posts <- odd thing is that the PNG is 3 times smaller than the JPG
15:10<DarkED>Eddi|zuHause, doesn't really factor up that way. plus, openttd is played from an isometric diagonal perspective -- there are only diagonal lines. also photobucket downscaled it, not me
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>and openttd screenshots are 8bpp, while jpegs are 32bpp, so automatically 4 times bigger
15:10<DarkED>Rubidium, i see what you're getting at now
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>there are plenty of reasons why jpeg is useless
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15:11<Eddi|zuHause>not only aesthetical ones
15:11<fjb>Beside the low quality of that picture the station looks boring. Often seen that kind and not very efficient.
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, the lines from below should be distributed further to the right of the station, so the trains don't block each other as much
15:12<fjb>And ofcourse there is only flat land, no interesting landscape or anything else to see.
15:13<DarkED>fjb, that's okay, i think it's awesome personally
15:13<@Rubidium>ieuw... uglev
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>DarkED: it doesn't actually matter whether the lines are to an angle, jpeg cannot handle straight lines at any angle
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>DarkED: it's incapable of doing so by design
15:14<DarkED>Eddi|zuHause, well, now i know the wonders of 256-color png
15:14<DarkED>uh, for openttd that is
15:14<fjb>Massive station from openttdcoop are awesome. Not that station.
15:15<DarkED>fjb, stations in openttdcoop make no sense when you look at them
15:15<Sacro>that'll never be full
15:15<DarkED>Sacro, it's always full
15:15<DarkED>look at the screenshot
15:15<DarkED>it's full there
15:15<frosch123>hmm, typical maglev station :p the trains need ages for loading compared to driving, so you needs dozands of platforms for a few entry liens
15:15<Sacro>strange
15:15<Sacro>frosch123: could be, never use maglev
15:16<Sacro>but with normal locos it'd only need around 8
15:16<DarkED>frosch123, yeah... it's easier with electric engines
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15:16<Sacro>hang on, through the JPEG mist that looks like presignals
15:16<DarkED>but if you notice the date it's 2129... maglev is the only type available to me at this point
15:16<Sacro>it's very hard to see
15:16<DarkED>let me reupload it
15:16*fjb would use ships to move a massive amount of coal.
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>DarkED: and make sure the image hoster is set to "no rescaling"
15:17<DarkED>Eddi|zuHause, it crops according to size. the jpg was over 1mb so it cropped
15:17<fjb>Best way to make OpenTTD screen shots is with the build in screen shot function.
15:17<DarkED>the 256color png is 800kb so it should be full size
15:17<frosch123>DarkED: likely most in here play with wagon speed limits, so you hardly need lots of freight platforms
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>DarkED: and to me it looks like the exit is the bottleneck, not the number of platforms
15:18<Sacro>reupload in PNG please
15:18<DarkED>Eddi|zuHause, it's one of the bottlenecks, yes. i just don't have any space to add more outbound lines :(
15:18<DarkED>http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd275/darkusedius/OpenTTD/massiveopenttdstation-1.png
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: with cargodist and timetabling of mixed passenger/freight lines, i need plenty of platforms for the intermediate freight stations
15:19<DarkED>yes i agree that png looks so much better
15:19<Sacro>Yep presigs
15:19<@Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/misc/mine.png <- mine... mine... mine :)
15:19<DarkED>it only dropped 300kb off the size, but much better
15:19<Sacro>so you can only have one train leaving at a time
15:19<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: what? more platforms for more different directions? but... isn't that too realistic?
15:19<Sacro>rather pointless having dual exit lanes
15:20<DarkED>Sacro, those are one-way path signals. the trains actually do use both lanes
15:20<DarkED>Rubidium, that map is insane
15:20<DarkED>but in a good way :D
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it's mainly that the freight trains do "hop from one freight station to the next, then wait there 10 minutes until the passenger train passes"
15:21<fjb>I need a faster internet connection...
15:21<Sacro>Oh?
15:21<Sacro>some kind of weird grf
15:21<DarkED>Rubidium, how do you get those ships to stack like that?
15:22<DarkED>or do they just do that?
15:22<DarkED>Sacro, no, they don't always use both lanes, just sometimes
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15:22<Sacro>hm
15:22<@peter1138>ships don't collide
15:22<DarkED>Sacro, unfortunately i'm not TOO good with signals... i don't know how to set it up properly
15:22<DarkED>i just try to make it so there are no possibilities of collisions
15:22<DarkED>peter1138, ahh, i didn't know that
15:23<fjb>Ah, that scenario was the reason for implementing the aquaducts.
15:23<DarkED>that is interesting... very interesting. i will have to play around with them
15:23<@Rubidium>'only' 1 million cargo delivered per year (OTTDCoop's Pile Transport is only half a million, OTTDCoop's PS154 has only ~5% more delivered cargo)
15:24<DarkED>Rubidium, D:
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15:24<+glx>DarkED: ctrl-s exists :)
15:24<DarkED>glx, screenshot shortcut?
15:24<+glx>yes ingame screenshot
15:25<DarkED>yeah but that dumps it as a full quality png
15:25<DarkED>i'd still have to crack open irfanview and compress it
15:25<DarkED>or gimp on linux
15:25<+glx>it outputs a 8bpp png if you use 8bpp blitter
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>DarkED: generally, having 4 inbound lines and 2 outbound lines is asking for trouble
15:26<PeterT>DarkED: What OS do you use?
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>and i see plenty of space for expansion
15:26<DarkED>PeterT, i flipflop alot. i switch between windows and linux
15:26<DarkED>i dualboot
15:26<PeterT>What type of linux
15:26-!-zodttd2 [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd
15:26<DarkED>crunchbang
15:26<PeterT>Yeah, same here
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: now try that same thing with PBI: stockpile limits and expiring mines ;)
15:27<PeterT>Oh
15:27<DarkED>i use crunchbang on my desktop and my laptop. i run my own very light version of winxp pro that i made with nlite on my desktop. laptop is running win7 ultimate x64
15:28-!-zodttd [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:28<DarkED>PeterT, what do you use?
15:28<PeterT>Ubuntu
15:28<DarkED>ah... what version?
15:28<PeterT>9.10
15:28<DarkED>please dont say 9.10
15:28<DarkED>ouch
15:28<PeterT>Why?
15:29<PeterT>I'm an absolute noob to Linux
15:29<DarkED>well... 9.10 has lots of issues that weren't present in 9.04
15:29<DarkED>lots of bugs, a few bad memory leaks
15:29<DarkED>in fact alot of ubuntu users are up in arms about it
15:29<PeterT>Hmm, memory leaks?
15:29<DarkED>people saying it shouldn't even have been a '1.0' release
15:29<Lakie>How'd it make it out of the beta / release canditates with such issues?
15:29<DarkED>yeah... X has some serious memory issues
15:30<DarkED>Lakie, canonical likes to stick to a very strict release schedule. usually they release no matter what shape it's in
15:30<DarkED>of course, until 9.10, there weren't any serious problems
15:30<DarkED>they release every six months
15:30<Lakie>Wouldn't that affect most major releases around the time if X was the problem?
15:30<DarkED>the only time they ever broke the six month rule was with 6.06
15:30<@Rubidium>Lakie: simple, people don't dare to run the betas/RCs because they know how buggy the releases are, as such no beta/RC feedback and buggy releases
15:30<DarkED>Lakie, it only happens on certain systems with X
15:30<Lakie>Ah, ok
15:30<DarkED>Lakie, certain hardware has problems with memory leaks and 100% cpu usage from X
15:31<DarkED>but most hardware is fine
15:31<Lakie>Rubidium: I appreate that, since quite often I prefer not to run betas, myself.
15:31<DarkED>regardless, there are still lots of other bugs present in the new version of Gnome
15:31<DarkED>thats why i switched to crunchbang. it's built on ubuntu 9.04 and is much more stable
15:31<@Rubidium>Lakie: Ubuntu has to tendency to package stuff that is scheduled to be released a month before their release
15:31<DarkED>i've been using ubuntu since 5.04
15:31<DarkED>the golden age of ubuntu was between 6.06 and 7.10, tbh
15:32<DarkED>everything before and after has been pretty much crap
15:32<Lakie>Heh.
15:32<@Rubidium>a sane distribution wouldn't do that, but then those distributions are 'old' and such
15:32<DarkED>yeah
15:32*Lakie likes openSUSE, but I suspect most people don't...
15:32<DarkED>ubuntu started to become a very bloated ram hog around the time 8.04 came out
15:32<DarkED>thats another reason i went to crunchbang
15:33<@Rubidium>Lakie: there are Ubuntu paid developers that package stuff to go into Ubuntu (because their boss says too) but aren't even trying to consider adding it to Debian because it's too buggy
15:33<Lakie>:o
15:33<Lakie>Thats shockingly bad.
15:33<DarkED>Rubidium, well it depends on which version of debian you're running :D
15:33<DarkED>one version is sane, the other is bleeding edge
15:33<DarkED>i forget which is which
15:34*fjb has no Linux trouble.
15:34<DarkED>i thing etch is the bleeding edge release and lenny is the stable
15:34<DarkED>thing=think* lol
15:34<@Rubidium>DarkED: etch is oldstable
15:34<DarkED>okay so i have it backwards
15:34<@Rubidium>squeeze is testing, sid is 'unstable'
15:34<_ln>except lenny is stable
15:35<DarkED>i've actually been tempted to try the newest version of fedora on my laptop. it has the ram and cpu to push such a bloated distro
15:36<@Rubidium>and if you really want to live on the edge there's Debian 'experimental' too
15:36*Lakie guesses non-bloated distros are basically the ones with nothing but the very basics, the desktop manager, a few core programs and the kernel.
15:36<DarkED>_ln, lenny may be stable but it's more bleeding edge than etch
15:36<DarkED>Lakie, that is crunchbang in a nutshell. it's built off ubuntu 9.04.1 minimal install with openbox as the wm and pcmanfm as the filemanager
15:36<DarkED>it uses about 130mb of ram at idle for me with just xcompmgr running
15:37<DarkED>oh and xchat
15:37<PeterT>xchat is sweet
15:37-!-zodttd2 [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:37<Lakie>xchat is nice, yes.
15:37<PeterT>Are you running it under Wine?
15:37<DarkED>yes it is. i'm so glad the silverex builds exist for windows
15:37<Lakie>...
15:37<CIA-4>OpenTTD: alberth * r18464 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix (r17863): Caption of the build vehicle window did not have company colours.
15:37<Lakie>why would you run it under wine?
15:37<Lakie>It has native linux builds
15:37<DarkED>yeah xchat is native to linux
15:38<DarkED>PeterT, do sudo apt-get install xchat
15:38<DarkED>you'll be happy :D
15:38<Lakie>Yes.
15:38<PeterT>Oh
15:38<PeterT>xchat isn't free.
15:38<DarkED>PeterT, yes, it is
15:38<DarkED>the guy who wrote xchat just charges for the windows builds
15:38<DarkED>however
15:38<+glx>official builds are not free for windows
15:38<DarkED>there's a guy called silverex that builds xchat from source for windows, and they are free
15:38<Lakie>Yup.
15:38<_ln>while otherwise it is GPL
15:38<+glx>but as it's GNU anyone can build it
15:39*Lakie used to build his own but got lazy
15:39<DarkED>http://www.silverex.org/news/
15:39*Yexo is happy with YChat
15:39<DarkED>his builds work perfectly for the most part
15:39<DarkED>Yexo, it is Ychat
15:39<DarkED>same thing
15:39<Yexo>I know :)
15:39<DarkED>silverex's builds are YChat, but XChat is the same project :D
15:39<DarkED>ahh, sorry
15:39<Lakie>Heh.
15:40<DarkED>but yeah i love open source in all it's forms
15:40<Eddi|zuHause><DarkED> the guy who wrote xchat just charges for the windows builds <-- perfect example for free as in speech vs. free as in beer
15:40<Lakie>From a software development point of view, I'm not keen on open source lisencing.
15:40<DarkED>it's not really even about the software being totally free... i'm just happy with the fact that most of it is cross-platform
15:40<DarkED>it makes day to day use easier
15:40<@Rubidium>Lakie: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/02/msg00431.html <- with his Debian hat he doesn't dare to touch 3.0, with his Ubuntu hat he adds it to jaunty/intrepid: http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/p/python3-defaults/python3-defaults_3.0.1-0ubuntu4/changelog
15:41<DarkED>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, good point
15:41<+glx>it's just because it's a pain to build xchat on windows I guess
15:41<PeterT>DarkED, how did he get the source, then?
15:41<+glx>source is available on xchat official site
15:41<DarkED>PeterT, the source is under the GPL and is free to use, build, and modify
15:41<PeterT>Ahh
15:41<DarkED>PeterT, he only charges for the 'official' xchat windows builds
15:42<DarkED>however, anybody can build an unofficial build for windows and keep it under GPL
15:42<DarkED>thats the beauty of open source
15:42<Lakie>glx: I used to compile it and its quite finical about environment setup and requires soem alterations to code....
15:42<Alberth>Rubidium: oh joy, let's install the most useless Python by default :)
15:42<DarkED>one thing i really cant stand about recent ubuntu releases is that they no longer have libgtk-1.2 in the repos
15:42<+glx>Lakie: that's why official builds are not "free" ;)
15:43<DarkED>lots of older games use that
15:43<Lakie>I know. ;)
15:43*Lakie has used xchat long before they become not-free.
15:43<DarkED>so for example, to install unreal tournament using loki installer, i have to go hunting for libgtk-1.2 and it's dependencies
15:43<Lakie>I think I read about that on a ut2004 forum.
15:44<DarkED>yeah, ut2004's loki installer uses the same lib iirc
15:44<DarkED>it's a real pain to find that stuff in .deb format
15:44<Lakie>:(
15:44<DarkED>i mean sure, i COULD compile it from source, but sometimes i just want to install and play the stupid game, ykow?
15:44<DarkED>heh... my lack of sleep is killing my typing
15:45<Lakie>You could compile the whole distro from source, but generally we don't want to do that, we want a working OS from the box.
15:45<DarkED>Lakie, this is true but i've been considering it for my desktop lately
15:45<DarkED>linux from scratch has some good info on that
15:45<@Rubidium>http://archive.debian.org/debian/pool/main/g/gtk+1.2/ <- it's not that hard (if you know where to look)
15:45<DarkED>crunchbang is light but i always want lighter
15:46<DarkED>plus it still has that x cpu usage bug on my system
15:46<DarkED>every so often x will start using 100% cpu and i have to restart x to stop it
15:46<Lakie>Ouch
15:46<DarkED>it's annoying
15:46<DarkED>Rubidium, yeah, but those dont work correctly on ubuntu
15:46<DarkED>you have to use one from an older ubuntu release
15:46<Lakie>The only reason I dropped ubuntu was it crashing with the nvidia drivers for my card...
15:46<DarkED>which are getting harder and harder to find
15:47<DarkED>it's something to do with the way ubuntu has the libs directory structured
15:47<@Rubidium>Lakie: the binary-only nvidia/ati are generally crap
15:47<DarkED>true dat
15:47<Lakie>Quite possibly.
15:47<DarkED>nah
15:47<DarkED>most definitely
15:47<_ln>Rubidium: binary-only nvidia generally works flawlessly.
15:48<Lakie>I must admit I never really looked at the various options for nvidia drivers on linux
15:48<DarkED>_ln, i beg to differ. i've had massive problems in the past
15:48<DarkED>i have had six nvidia cards in the last seven years and the official nvidia binary drivers always have some quirk with them
15:48<fjb>At least on FreeBSd it works flawlessly.
15:49<DarkED>and of course there's only four versions of nvidia linux binary drivers in existence
15:49*Lakie has only had them work fine on openSuse.
15:49<thingwath>even with suspend/resume?
15:49<DarkED>so not many to choose from
15:49-!-welshdragon [~mjones@147.143.254.214] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:49<Lakie>I thought some of the open source varients didn't support any form of 3D yet though, which makes them semi-useless.
15:50<@Rubidium>fjb: you mean you can run mplayer full screen (1920x1200) without glitches with whatever drivers FreeBSD has?
15:50-!-Danio [~Danio@83.101.65.8] has joined #openttd
15:50*fjb only tested with 1280x1024.
15:51<DarkED>Lakie, the neveau nvidia drivers are open source and they support 3D on 8xxx series cards and above
15:51<DarkED>i've heard it is sketchy right now though
15:51<DarkED>but still, they are making progress
15:51<Lakie>Ah right, last time I heard of them, they were still strickly 2d.
15:52<Lakie>(About Feb/Mar time)
15:52<DarkED>yeah
15:52<DarkED>they've come a long way since then apparently
15:52<Lakie>Cool.
15:53-!-Zahl [~Zahl@2002:5ce4:1858:1:9590:6e4b:699c:2423] has quit [Quit: *schiel*]
15:54<Lakie>The other problem I get is missing libraries or more accurately distros not having new enough versions...
15:55<Lakie>More of a problem when compiling software though, I guess.
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15:59<DarkED>well
15:59<DarkED>im tired... im gonna get some sleep
15:59<DarkED>thanks for the convo
15:59<DarkED>cu
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16:00<Eddi|zuHause3>something's odd with my cable connector
16:00-!-Eddi|zuHause3 is now known as Eddi|zuHause2
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16:02<Eddi|zuHause>anybody got a spare ~5m cat5 (or better) cable?
16:03<Sacro>Yes
16:06*fjb has 20m but wants it back.
16:07*TrueBrain gives Eddi|zuHause 5m cat5e cable
16:08<TrueBrain>I have red, green, and grey
16:08<TrueBrain>also available in 2m, 4m and 10m
16:08<TrueBrain>(oh, and 1m, but they are running low)
16:10-!-welshdragon [~mjones@147.143.254.73] has quit [Quit: Bai]
16:11<Ammler>wifi! :-)
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>great, at which time can i get it? :)
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16:24<TrueBrain>any time you want; you only need to pick it up :p
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>hm... if i start now, i could be in the city by morning, and in holland by noon ;)
16:25<TrueBrain>so maybe cheaper to go to your local store ;)
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16:53<@Belugas>beu bye
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16:53<Eddi|zuHause>few minutes early today?
16:53<fjb>Bye bye Belugas
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>bye
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16:59<edeca>Hrm, does the uk renewal train set include any carriages that can carry cars?
17:02<fjb>I don't think so.
17:02<edeca>Damn it, that was a silly mistake then :)
17:03*edeca unbuilds rail
17:03<fjb>To use George's ECS vectors?
17:03<edeca>Yes indeed
17:04<edeca>There is the "Freightliner Container Rake" in 1972, I don't know whether it carries cars or not (it does carry goods)
17:04<fjb>I'm nor sore UKRS does not support cars, but I don't remember it can. And UKRS is not fully compatible with ECS.
17:04<edeca>It's not? Oops.
17:04<fjb>not sure
17:05<edeca>I've been using it a few game years and this is the first problem I've had
17:05<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18465 /trunk/src/ (train.h train_cmd.cpp vehicle_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: simplify CheckTrainInDepot and remove some unneeded wrapper functions
17:05<fjb>It is not. UKRS is compatible to PBI.
17:06<edeca>Oh well. This is the first problem I've had. What train sets are more compatible with ECS then?
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>lots of train sets have problems carrying vehicles
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>but i have never heard that UKRS is incompatible to ECS
17:08<fjb>NARS 2 should be compatible with ECS. There is an ECS extension for dbset.
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17:08<Eddi|zuHause>the dbset will also not carry vehicles before 1950
17:09<fjb>But it does after 1950.
17:11<edeca>OK, well I'll bear it in mind if I play again
17:11<edeca>I've got a nice game going
17:14<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: You have the wrong color.
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>yes, blame my cable
17:18*fjb blames Eddi|zuHause's cable.
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17:24<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18466 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: use CmdMoveRailWagon to attach a just build wagon to a chain
17:24<@peter1138>-d+t
17:28<edeca>Damn the AIs are good now :)
17:28<Danio>I'm pretty new to the game, but I can't find anything about this, I never had this issue here before... Does anyone know why 2 of my 3 trains will not load up on coals? http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7012/trainsnotloading.jpg
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17:29<@Rubidium>iron ore != coal
17:30<@Rubidium>i.e. use iron ore hoppers and not coal trucks. Also iron ore goes to the steel mill, not the power station.
17:30<@peter1138>hehe
17:31<fjb>And please use PNG format for OpenTTD screen shots.
17:31<@peter1138>also give me lots of money
17:32<fjb>Poor peter1138.
17:32<edeca>peter1138: Define "lots" :)
17:32<Danio>d'oh!
17:32<Danio>>.<
17:32*Rubidium presses Alt+1 in the debug build and sends some to peter1138
17:33<Xaroth>Danio: also, distance with maintained speed == more profit
17:33<Danio>I see, thanks :)
17:33<Xaroth>a net distance of 4 tiles will not yield you much compared to a distance of.. 40
17:34<Xaroth>mainly because your train will be sitting still 90% of it's travel time, the other 10% it'll be accellerating/decelerating(sp?) half the time
17:34*edeca eats chocolate
17:34*fjb doesn't.
17:34<edeca>Right, what's the best way to balance buses so that all 10 of them aren't queuing at once?
17:34<frosch123>that misses a quantifier
17:35<Xaroth>edeca: multiple platforms?
17:35<@Rubidium>edeca: timetabling with setting a timetable start date
17:36<edeca>Rubidium: That's the one, thanks
17:36<edeca>I really need to learn how to use timetables
17:36<frosch123>or use fifo loading and timetables with only loading times (no travel times)
17:37<edeca>Ah, timetables have improved since I last used them
17:38<edeca>Is autofill a suitable way to start timetabling?
17:38<@peter1138>coo, i have a pop 5 'city'
17:38<@peter1138>its sole 'building' is a park...
17:38<frosch123>don't cheat with bulldozers
17:39<@peter1138>:s
17:39<@peter1138>fresh game with TAI
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>TaI needs influence on town road growth
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise some cities end up with lots of roads without houses
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17:42<edeca>To answer my own question earlier, there _are_ vehicles in UKRS that can transport cars/vehicles
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17:43<@peter1138>hmm
17:43<edeca>(rail vehicles, that is)
17:43<@peter1138>bridges on half-water tiles are hideously expensive
17:44<@peter1138>it is about 20 times cheaper to build a longer bridge on flat edges
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>bridges and tunnels are awfully cheap
17:45<edeca>Is it likely that the "leave if another train arrives" option will ever be in the game?
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the use for that
17:51<fjb>But bridges on half-water tiles are looking better.
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18:00<CIA-4>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18467 /trunk/src/roadveh_gui.cpp: -Fix (r17870): Missed positioning for cargo capacity of non-articulated road vehicles.
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18:22<Eddi|zuHause>why did nobody ever replace "CalcBridgePiece" by a newgrf callback?
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18:49<edeca>How do full load & timetables interact? If my train is told to stay in station 10 days, but is full after 1, will it leave?
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>it will leave if both load is full and timetable runs out
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. it will wait longer, but not shorter than the timetable
18:51<edeca>Thanks
18:51<edeca>That makes for interesting planning :)
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19:07<Eddi|zuHause>i hate windows users...
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>they make their svn repo [i'm glad they even have one] directories "Trunk" and "Tags"
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19:08<edeca>Rather than?
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>"trunk" and "tags"?
19:09<edeca>Fair enough :)
19:10<edeca>I had a "perl" and "Perl" directories in my ~ by mistake. Mapping those to Windows over a samba share was.. interesting
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>and obviously they can't use svn... copying directories without history...
19:12<@Belugas>[18:22] <Eddi|zuHause> why did nobody ever replace "CalcBridgePiece" by a newgrf callback? <-- got some work on that, but i am too lazy to finish it
19:15<@peter1138>sir!
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19:17<@Belugas>coucou!
19:17<@Belugas>be there shortly, Admiral ;)
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19:33<@Belugas>ok, give me 2-3 minutes, the tiem i install my gear, peter1138
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20:53<@Belugas>mmh... mmmh... mmmh...
20:54<@Belugas>obsessive little melody
20:54<@Rubidium>yeah, it's lovely :)
20:54<@Belugas>indeed :) da silence !
20:54<@Belugas>ya shall hear dat little part :D
20:55<@Belugas>even when tired, mister nelson can bring some vewry good moody parts
20:59<@Belugas>which reminds me... wat are you STILL doing up, Rubidium?
21:00<@Rubidium>I was hoping you could answer that :)
21:00<@Belugas>too much coding makes you that effecdt, sometimes ;)
21:01<@Rubidium>nah, haven't coded a bit today
21:01<@Belugas>ok... since i know you don't drink, and it;s not fool moon...
21:01<@Belugas>and you're not a vampire...
21:01<@Belugas>and...
21:01<@Belugas>mmmh...
21:01<@Belugas>dunno
21:01<@Belugas>neightbours?
21:02<@Belugas>mmmh..
21:02<@Belugas>your brother is snoring?
21:02<@Rubidium>more like waking up when it's getting light, as an effect getting sleepy quite late
21:03<@Belugas>hehee... you're switching to glx's life style ;)\
21:03<@Rubidium>in the summer it's more the opposite... being awake till it gets dark, as an effect waking quite late
21:06<@Belugas>you should get a child... thoselittle brats have a tendancy to imnpose their life style quite fast :(
21:06<@Belugas>and now, i'm a zombie (alomost)
21:06<@Belugas>see you, closing the shop for the night
21:07<@Rubidium>I'll just unleash the child in myself :)
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22:57<PeterT>Good nigh
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---Logclosed Sat Dec 12 00:00:06 2009