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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-12-12

---Logopened Sat Dec 12 00:00:06 2009
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04:43<Luukland>Mr. Muxy?
04:43<Muxy>i'm here
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04:44<Luukland>have you yet completed a part of the campaign?
04:44<Luukland>I am proud to say "The Luukland Server" is opened :)
04:44<Alberth>for a small enough part, the answer is always yes :)
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06:51<Terkhen>hello
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07:00<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
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07:10<planetmaker>moin moin
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07:11<planetmaker>TrueBrain: concerning bananas: does there exist a kind of API which one could use to upload updates to existing projects via a script or alike?
07:11<planetmaker>We're thinking of adding a commit hook to the devzone so that tagged commits could be uploaded to bananas then automatically
07:12<planetmaker>(if the project is flaged to support this feature)
07:12<TrueBrain>in theory it would be possible, but no real code exists for it
07:12<TrueBrain>but as BaNaNaS is in SVN, I suggest yo make a nice patch for it :)
07:12<planetmaker>he :-)
07:13<planetmaker>but let's see
07:13<planetmaker>thanks
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>use XML!!
07:15<TrueBrain>yeah, great advise!
07:15<TrueBrain>I KNOW ANOTHER ONE! LETS USE TCP!
07:16<planetmaker>we should definitely use whitespace
07:16<@Rubidium>use COBOL... it's for businesses and this is definitely a b2b kind of protocol
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>BUT XML IS THE SAVIOUR OF MANKIND
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>IF ONLY THE CLIMATE PEOPLE USED XML
07:17<Alberth>planetmaker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_%28programming_language%29
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i'm fairly sure he meant exactly that :p
07:18<planetmaker>:-) ^
07:18<Alberth>Hmm, I'd expect Whitespace then :)
07:19<planetmaker>you mean s/w/W/?
07:19<Alberth>yes
07:19<planetmaker>well... :-) I shouldh have done it then :-)
07:20<planetmaker>-h
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>hm... so my windows compiler compiles, but somehow the program segfaults on start...
07:21<Alberth>you didn't use enough xml
07:21<planetmaker>haha :-)
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>that must be it...
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>i am such an idiot
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09:48<planetmaker>any thoughts on that: Good idea to disable a grf, if the engine pool is off?
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>well, other way round: skip disable the grf if multiple vehicle sets are on
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09:54<Eddi|zuHause>i find it funny that my "troll" post actually leads to a discussion ;)
09:57<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: well, technically it's the same, if I skip disabling, if on, or disable, if not on :-) But I don't know which "troll" posting you refer to...
10:05<fjb>Don't feed Eddi|zuHause!
10:10<Ammler>planetmaker: it isn't the same, eddi's suggestion would also work, if openttd doesn't know about the properity, like old openttd versions.
10:11<planetmaker>right. Fine enough, though. I'll do it that way
10:11<Ammler>hmm, on the other side, dunno, what an old openttd would return...
10:17<planetmaker>well. I certainly will have to check for that version before
10:19<frosch123>flags are zero if not present
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10:21<@peter1138>what's being tested for what?
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10:29<frosch123>pm wants to persuade all grf authors to disable their vehicle sets if dynamic engines is disabled
10:29<frosch123>or so
10:30<planetmaker>well. I want to persuade them to not mind anymore after the base settings are local
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10:31<planetmaker>And _I_ will disable the grfs which I develop, if it's off. Less complaints
10:31-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
10:31<planetmaker>or at least I'll try to persuade my co-developers
10:32<planetmaker>and much easier for me, if I don't have to care about conflicts and stuff
10:32<planetmaker>as you said: GRM is... mostly not used anyway
10:32<planetmaker>and much work to implement
10:32<planetmaker>for little gain
10:33<planetmaker>s/base settings/base costs/
10:33<Ammler>but why do you need to enable it for 2cc?
10:34<Ammler>the higher vehicle IDs should also work wihtout the engine pool, iirc.
10:35<planetmaker>also OpenTTD players don't always enable the pool and then wonder.
10:36<Ammler>maybe you can output a warning, but disabling isn't needed.
10:36<@peter1138>
10:36<planetmaker>well, I could, yes. But why?
10:36<@peter1138>hehe
10:36<Ammler>maybe someone wants to overrule a 2cc vehicle :-)
10:36<@peter1138>well i don't particularly care either way...
10:37<@peter1138>but i'm just a fan of pikka's work ;)
10:37<planetmaker>:-) What of his many awesome things do you refer to in particular, peter1138 ?
10:37<planetmaker>Ammler: got a point there, yes
10:37-!-_ln [~lanurmi@dyn-xdsl-83-150-113-243.nebulazone.fi] has quit [Quit: hello]
10:38<Ammler>well, on the other side, you could make a grf for overruling :-)
10:38-!-xopek [~xopknet@92.46.175.52] has joined #openttd
10:38<Ammler>override or overwrite, whatever* :-)
10:39<planetmaker>you mean the "only allow co-existance, if parameter set"?
10:39<@peter1138>planetmaker, currently... both aviators and aviation... ukrs, tai, pbi...
10:40<@peter1138>(also have FISH, HEQS, eGRVTS and newstations & ISR)
10:43-!-andythenorth [~andy@87.114.154.138.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd
10:49<@peter1138>(oh, and using opengfx of course)
10:51<planetmaker>:-)
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10:55<fjb>The only thing I dislaike about OpenGFX are the missing bales of straw on the fields.
10:56<@peter1138>damn you
10:56<@peter1138>i hadn't even noticed
10:56<@peter1138>now it will bug me
10:57<fjb>:-)
10:57<planetmaker>he...
10:57<planetmaker>indeed damn you :-P
10:58<planetmaker>same here
10:58<fjb>So convince the artist to add some. Can not be that hard.
10:59<@Rubidium>bug report!
10:59-!-LordAzamath [~stabuinte@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
10:59<fjb>Yeah!
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11:00<LordAzamath>noeh
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11:03<fjb>Moin LordAzamath
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11:08<planetmaker>added to our bug tracker
11:09<fjb>:-)
11:09<fjb>It bugged me the first time I used OpenGFX.
11:09<@peter1138>the dreary dim greyness bugged me the first time
11:10<@peter1138>i got used to it now, and bright garishness of the original graphics bugs me now ;)
11:11<fjb>It takes some time to get used to it.
11:11<planetmaker>it does.
11:12<fjb>I like the houses.
11:12<fjb>Way more than the original houses.
11:12<planetmaker>Zephyris did most
11:13<planetmaker>when I looked up *how* much he did I was so much more impressed. Having his fingers in 2/3 of all things or so
11:14<fjb>He does it great. But some thing look very "british".
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11:14<planetmaker>No principle fault in that
11:15<planetmaker>The similarity between the UK house set and OpenGFX houses certainly is not accidential :-P
11:15<andythenorth>most of the game looks very 'British" :)
11:15<andythenorth>apart from the 'other' three climates :)
11:15<andythenorth>most of temperate looks like where I live
11:16<planetmaker>he... that'd be something for the 'extra' part: some more actionA for houses - thus have climates really distinct.
11:16<fjb>Temperate looks also central european or part of the USA. You just have to change the houses and vehicles.
11:17<andythenorth>temperate looking live where I live is no coincidence, as Chris Sawyer lived here (dunno about Simon Foster)
11:18<fjb>It also looks like where I live.
11:19<andythenorth>:)
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11:37<planetmaker>hehe. mb wants to split hairs. I can do that, too
11:40<frosch123>lol, did you read those books, or did you just searched for some about the topic?
11:40<planetmaker>I own them, yes.
11:40<planetmaker>I found them actually quite interesting
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11:42<fjb>German forum?
11:42<planetmaker>dunno. They might even be standard reading, if you study sociology / psychology or similar. @fbb: yes
11:42<planetmaker>fjb: ^
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11:58<fjb>I stopped reading the german forum.
11:59<frosch123>i stopped reading intentionally offensive posts :p
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12:05<planetmaker>good choice, I guess
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12:15<@peter1138>i can't read the german forum
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12:20<planetmaker>nothing missed actually. He's bitching around as usual without good reason
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12:21<planetmaker>kinda jumping onto things by deliberately misunderstanding it :-)
12:22<@peter1138>TELL ME
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12:23<planetmaker>well... I argued that with the local base costs there's no need to start a "disable-orgy" within the German RV set, checking for the presence of each other known RV grf.
12:24<planetmaker>He wants to understand it the way that I argued to disable all other newgrf
12:24<planetmaker>now we argue which part of his words are quotes and which interpretation ;-)
12:27<@peter1138>there was a crowd that trested the conflicting-vehicle-sets as a new problem with the 'engine pool'
12:27<@peter1138>*treated
12:28<planetmaker>I recall that :-) And that triggered my first posting - directed to the creator of the German RV set - which is not mb
12:29<planetmaker>which could from a certain perspective indeed legitamately be seen as a problem till recently
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12:29<planetmaker>And I pointed out that something changed now wrt base costs
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12:30<planetmaker>and the answer was that base costs were not the main problem, but others he didn't care to elaborate
12:30<planetmaker>^ he = mb
12:31<planetmaker>which kinda disqualified that discussion at that very point
12:31<@Rubidium>planetmaker: we *all* know mb always whines and seldomly gives proper reasons as to why something is wrong
12:32<planetmaker>I know :-) If I bore you, I'll stop here re-iterating it.
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13:08<Eddi|zuHause>since when does tt-forums rescale attached images?
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>i hate that function...
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>well, i hate rescaled images
13:08*Luukland agrees
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>thumbnails i could get used to
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>and is this my imagination or does this also upscale smaller images?
13:16<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> planetmaker: we *all* know mb always whines and seldomly gives proper reasons as to why something is wrong <-- well, he always refers you to a previous discussion. which always also refers to another previous discussion, so you can recursively follow down that road and maybe it actually leads to a valid argument ;)
13:17<planetmaker>^ that's a bit tedious ;-) given the big chance one would take to step into an infinite cycle
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13:21<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: you mean "I've made a post about those bugs somewhen somewhere but I can't be bothered to give you a specific link nor tell you where to look"?
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13:27<@peter1138>mostly it's "i don't want other people to be able to play with other vehicles at the same time"
13:28<Luukland>peter1138. are u the peter from the board who asked something in the thread I opened?
13:28<Muxy>no he is not this one
13:28<Muxy>peter1138 is known as PeterN
13:28<Muxy>and our Peter is PeterT
13:28<Luukland>Hmmmm
13:29<Luukland>Why does the world has to be soooo hard....
13:29<PeterT>Hello Luukland
13:29<Muxy>But PeterT is here
13:29<Luukland>I see :)
13:29<PeterT>You could also upload a patch file, with all the changes in it
13:30<Luukland>yet the question is, do we have one ^^
13:30<Muxy>publishing source code is not the actual point we are focussed on
13:31<Luukland>that would require massive documenting
13:31<Muxy>And the source code will not be enough, there is some extra OpenTTD work
13:31<Luukland>yeap some extra outside documenting
13:32<Luukland>Only a true Rubik's Cube solver can understand
13:32<Luukland>Righ muxy?
13:32<Muxy>Yes
13:34<PeterT>Ahh
13:34<PeterT>You used SVN to download the original OpenTTD source, correct?
13:34<Muxy>No
13:35<PeterT>How did you download it?
13:35<Muxy>we didnt download it
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13:35<PeterT>Than how the hell are you running a heavily patched server without downloading the source?
13:36<Luukland>SVN, is that eatable?
13:36<Muxy>Reverse Engeniring or womething like that
13:36<Luukland>Like coconuts?
13:36<Luukland>*Engineering
13:36<Muxy>Yes, that's it Engineering
13:37<PeterT>I'm off
13:37<PeterT>Bye
13:37<Muxy>Anyway, PeterT, i dont want to bother people here with that story
13:38<PeterT>Bye
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13:38<@peter1138>reverse engineering openttd? whatever for...
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13:39<Luukland>Openttd Campaigns ^^
13:39<Luukland>And other quests and missions :)
13:42<@peter1138>no, i meant why
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14:58<DJNekkid>can a train use RV-based (or plane or ship for that matter) runningcosts?
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14:59<DJNekkid>(A0 property 0E)
15:00<welshdragon>hmm
15:00<welshdragon>I was going to install openttd on my macbook
15:00<welshdragon>but i don't have any virtual machines
15:02<frosch123>DJNekkid: you can, but it will conflict with rv sets. esp. cost modifiers will not be considered local
15:02<planetmaker>welshdragon: why would you need a VM for that?
15:03<frosch123>a very old version of us train set uses ship costs, and it conflicts :)
15:03<planetmaker>frosch123: even with your changes?
15:03<frosch123>yes
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15:03<planetmaker>but if I use one type only, then it wouldn't conflict with another of the same type, right?
15:03<frosch123>well, except you add some roadvehicle :p
15:03<welshdragon>planetmaker: does 0.7.3 work on OSX?
15:04<planetmaker>frosch123: yes, a dummy one then, of course
15:04<planetmaker>welshdragon: sure
15:04<frosch123>but i would consider that "not intentional"
15:04<planetmaker>frosch123: hehe ;-)
15:04<planetmaker>how bad would such abuse be?
15:05<frosch123>your fault, if it breaks due to other priorities
15:05<frosch123>anyway, why would you want to use another multiplier?
15:05<frosch123>the old us set did it only, because there were no base cost mulitpliers at that time
15:05<frosch123>but why would you want to do it today?
15:05<planetmaker>I guess different cost schemes for metro, EMU, DMU, ICEs, cargo haulers
15:06<planetmaker>DJNekkid's idea :-P
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15:06*planetmaker points with a finger and 'wasn't me! wasn't me!' ;-)
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15:07<frosch123>ok, you could use the rv cost multiplier for metro as long as you do not set a mutiplier yourself. other rv sets would use their local mutipliers, and difficulty-modifying newgrfs changed rv costs would then change metro cost
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15:07<frosch123>if you consider metro just as some kind of rv, it should be ok. but don't mess with real rv sets :)
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15:08<planetmaker>:-) ok
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15:08<frosch123>but, of course you could also solve the stuff using action6 and grf parameters
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15:12<planetmaker>The 2ccTrainSet already has running costs as function of grfparameters. The idea was to have access to one or two more. But... yes, could be guarded by another incompatibility parameter or so
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15:14<DJNekkid>frosch123: the point was (i were slightly afk) that the running cost is (according to planetmaker) now local for the newgrfs...
15:14<DJNekkid>you can have more trainsets then one, and the changes done in trainset1 dont affect trainset2 ...
15:14<frosch123>yes, but they are only local if there is some action0/3 for the feature
15:15<frosch123>defining a train makes the train-related costs loca, defining a rv makes the rv-related costs local
15:15<frosch123>http://svn.openttd.org/trunk/src/table/pricebase.h <- third column
15:16<DJNekkid>so ... if i make a RV in a trainset, that have for example property6 (iirc) (climate availability) to 00, that should be concidered both trainset and RV-set ?
15:16<frosch123>yes, but it would be cheating
15:16<DJNekkid>but it would still be concidered local, right?
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15:17<frosch123>in the current implementation yes. i have no intention to change that, but cheats are more likely to break
15:17<frosch123>and of course, when another grf increases rv cost globally, it will affect your grf
15:18<DJNekkid>but another trainset wont?
15:19<frosch123>a trainset can globally change rv costs if it wants to change them for difficulty reasons
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15:19<frosch123>just like all those monolithical sets out there change track building costs
15:19<planetmaker>like the 2ccTrainset does :-P
15:20<DJNekkid>but then, how do i define that a "trainset" is just a trainset, and not a, lets say, shipset ?
15:20<frosch123>by defining a train :p
15:20<DJNekkid>and, what if i want to make a, lets say, french vehicle set, with both train, air and RV's ?
15:20<frosch123>should also work
15:20<DJNekkid>oki ...
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15:22<DJNekkid>then, if i make a trainset, and want a 4th running cost, i can use, lets say RV runningcost, and make a action 0-1-2-3 chain, but it cant be baught, because the climate availability is set to 0 ?
15:22<DJNekkid>then it _should_ be local in my grf, right?
15:23<frosch123>if you set a rv multiplier in your grf, it will be local. other sets can still change the multipliers, but they will be added to the local multipliers (not overwritten)
15:24<DJNekkid>i.e. a RV-set wont be affected by my trainset?
15:25<frosch123>the "intention" is: a rv set defines rvs, and defines a multiplier of x8 for the running costs to balance the set. then there is a second set which does not define any rv, but generally wants to increase rv costs x4 to make the game more difficult. that will cause the rv of the rv set to get x32 costs.
15:25<DJNekkid>i see
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15:26<DJNekkid>but then again, what im saying will actually work?
15:26<frosch123>as i said, currently yes.
15:26<DJNekkid>oki :)
15:26<DJNekkid>all i wanted to know :)
15:26<DJNekkid>and, thanx!
15:26<frosch123>:)
15:26<planetmaker>On the cost that a difficulty grf, trying to affect the running cost of RV will affect you there then, too
15:27<planetmaker>DJNekkid: Maybe we should even re-consider tuning the track building costs.
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15:27<DJNekkid>this is an VERY VERY VERY appreciated thing by the community frosch123... GREAT work!
15:27<DJNekkid>planetmaker: parameter to disable it :)
15:27<planetmaker>DJNekkid: other way around?
15:27<DJNekkid>parameter to enable?
15:27<planetmaker>yes
15:27<DJNekkid>hmm ...
15:27<DJNekkid>no :)
15:28<DJNekkid>the reason is valid imho ...
15:28<planetmaker>But... but... I want to be as standard as possible
15:28<DJNekkid>DMU's are more expensive to operate, cost less ...
15:28<frosch123>planetmaker: there is only one global multiplier, so if you load a difficulty grf last it will win over the rest
15:28<DJNekkid>but EMU's require alot more hard cash to operate
15:28<DJNekkid>as the infrastruckture is more expensive
15:29<planetmaker>yes. But e-rail is usually already more expensive, right?
15:29<DJNekkid>5% or something
15:29<DJNekkid>not any noticable difference anyway
15:30<DJNekkid>abit more then 5%, but still
15:30<DJNekkid>90 vs 127£
15:30<planetmaker>well. At least an option to disable any messing with non-global base costs
15:30<DJNekkid>on whatever difficulty i were at
15:30<planetmaker>which is about 40%
15:30<DJNekkid>yup, it always have been there...
15:30<DJNekkid>still not particulary noticable
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>hm... lovely snow...
15:31<Luukland>e-real is a bad choice :P
15:31<Luukland>just like cargodestination
15:31<DJNekkid>with the current 10x price of elrails it actually matters, alot
15:32<DJNekkid>there is a reason to use the DMU's
15:32<planetmaker>DJNekkid: also 2cc is no big challenge, if played my way
15:32<planetmaker>There's no way to make money _the_ challenge of OpenTTD. At least in a fail-save way
15:33<Luukland>I got a silver coil challenge yet implented :P
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15:34<DJNekkid>planetmaker: i also think that actually is a balance...
15:34<planetmaker>Luukland: two mates and myself joined the last goal server which was around. We won easily ;-)
15:34<DJNekkid>hard enough, and ultimate challange
15:34<Luukland>I am not talking about the goal server :P
15:34<planetmaker>(doesn't mean it's a bad thing to have it)
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15:34<DJNekkid>in 1.0.x there were a parameter to increase the cost a twofold
15:35<Luukland>I am talking about the introduction of a new dimension to OTTD
15:35<planetmaker>In 2.0 there currently still is, DJNekkid
15:36<Luukland>which is the OTTD Campaign :)
15:36<planetmaker>They're still all there, that parameter #1 to modify costs
15:36<DJNekkid>yea :)
15:36<DJNekkid>i guess so
15:36<DJNekkid>not done much with that yet
15:36<planetmaker>I know :-P I just edited that file today ;-)
15:36<DJNekkid>GJ :)
15:36<planetmaker>(but not those lines)
15:37<DJNekkid>hehe
15:37<DJNekkid><3 Heineken
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15:39<planetmaker>uh... not today. Had too much of other (better!) stuff yesterday :-P
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15:41<DJNekkid>hehe
15:41<DJNekkid>i had a good few myself yesterday
15:41<DJNekkid>had a gig :)
15:41<planetmaker>:-)
15:42<DJNekkid>even got one today... my 3rd this week
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15:42<planetmaker>uh...
15:43<planetmaker>btw, maybe let's add the param discussion to one of our 2cc tickets.
15:43<DJNekkid>yea, good idea
15:43<planetmaker>then it a) doesn't get forgotten and b) it's easier to keep track of what was thought and argued
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15:45<DJNekkid>hence the "Wanna make a draft of the parameters?" earlier :P
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15:46<planetmaker>hehe :-P
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16:01<batti5>Hi everyone, batti5s back.
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16:04<planetmaker>wth was that?
16:04<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18468 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Codechange: make sure one never makes self-loops using Vehicle::SetNext
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>you don't know batti5?
16:10<planetmaker>I hoped I'd have forgotten
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>:)
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16:11<Eddi|zuHause>needed to clear the history of his name? :p
16:12<planetmaker>:-P
16:12<planetmaker>rather would have needed to make sure to press cmd+W in the correct window. Alas
16:13*Rubidium slaps Eddi|zuHause for mentioning that name...
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>batti5, the only person i ever saw to gloriously fail a turing test :p
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16:34<DJNekkid>abit much work to open a new command-window, just to press W ... and what does that do?
16:34<DJNekkid>CTRL-W would be much better :P
16:34<DJNekkid>:D:D
16:36<planetmaker>DJNekkid: my CMD is your CTRL in this context ;-)
16:36<DJNekkid>i know, im just a bitch :)
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16:42<planetmaker>http://syncdir.sourceforge.net/ <-- what about?
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16:56<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18469 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Fix (r17139): possible invalid reads when listing content on the console
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17:11<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18470 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Codechange/Fix [part of FS#3146]: moving vehicles around in the depot could create states that are not allowed by the NewGRF attach callback.
17:15<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18471 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_order.cpp ai_vehicle.cpp): -Codechange/Fix: [NoAI] Deduplicate code betweeen AIVehicle::SkipToVehicleOrder and AIOrder::SkipToOrder. They are the same. Also ORDER_CURRENT was not allowed for the latter, but well...
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17:19<@Darkvater>hi guys
17:19<@Rubidium>evening
17:19<@Darkvater>how's everyone doing?
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>i'm way too lazy for my own good
17:21<@Rubidium>working on some complex NewGRF 'caused' bugs
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>and my tuba got stolen while it was in my friends car
17:21<@Darkvater>congrats all to open[sg]fx release :D
17:22<@Darkvater>it's been a looooooong time
17:22<@Darkvater>Rubidium: we just love those :)
17:22<@Darkvater>hmm, I should start playing ottd again
17:22<@Darkvater>I do miss it
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's a rabbit hole that you won't ever get out of again
17:23<@Darkvater>I don't think I'm even out yet
17:24<@Darkvater>I see Rubidium is doing an awesome lot of work. Where do you get all the time from?
17:24<@Darkvater>I bet he has some time-machine that he's hogging all for himself
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>i wondered that exact same thing myself
17:26<@Darkvater>lemme get a recent nightly
17:27<@Darkvater>I have till Monday to sober up :p
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17:27-!-mode/#openttd [-o Darkvater] by Darkvater
17:27<Darkvater>ls
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>i'd like cargodist, but i think it's unlikely to get trunk-ready before the next release
17:27*Darkvater doesn't deserve an op status atm
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>but last time i made a preditcion of trunk-readiness of a feature it got slapped in my face like two hours later :p
17:28<Darkvater>hehe
17:29<Darkvater>mmh, I'd like
17:29<Darkvater>what actually?
17:29<Darkvater>more eyecandy, natural reserves, cliffs
17:29<Darkvater>all kinda crap :P
17:30<Darkvater>anybody thought about updating the title screen for the next release? This one was made by Dominik..back in 2005-ish
17:30<@Rubidium>yes, never really happened though
17:30<Darkvater>lol, I can move around the title screen
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17:30<Eddi|zuHause>there were a few title screen contests
17:30<@Rubidium>it's perfect for trunk though
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, test for loading old savegames :p
17:31<Darkvater>I'll promise you guys, if I have time I'll make a new one that is so awesome it'll blow minds, tropical
17:32<Darkvater>that music is just so in my blood
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>one of the problems for a new title game is that it should look good on 640x480 as well as on 4000x3000-ish
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>other problem is that it cannot show off any of the cool newgrf features like trams etc.
17:35<Darkvater>are you telling me Eddi|zuHause ?
17:35<Darkvater>that's sweet :-)
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>no, i'm just brabbling along aimlessly ;)
17:35<Darkvater>:)
17:36<Darkvater>bbs, needa reboot
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17:36<Eddi|zuHause>blasphemy!!
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17:41<planetmaker>[23:30] <Darkvater> anybody thought about updating the title screen for the next release? This one was made by Dominik..back in 2005-ish <-- I can offer http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/502/titlegame6.sav
17:41<planetmaker>ah... not here :-P
17:42<Zuu>Indeed, was just typing a message to inform you about that, but you was quicker than my typing. :-)
17:44<planetmaker>:-)
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17:47<Zuu>planetmaker: That title game is nice, execept maybe for the station-walk or whatever you call it nowdays.
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17:48<planetmaker>hm... did I use station walk there?
17:48<Zuu>Yep, in the lower right.
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17:49<Zuu>For Kornheim Airport. It has a one-tile station part next to the factory.
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17:49<planetmaker>ah
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17:50<planetmaker>I guess one of the problems is to get a) every possible feature shown and b) every company profitable ;-) and c) make it look nice
17:51<Zuu>Yea, and avoiding to have bad tricks shown to the users.
17:51<planetmaker>but you're right. That piece of station looks out-of-place
17:52<Zuu>Would it be possible to remove the depot and move the factory to the other side?
17:53<planetmaker>it's possible to replace the station piece by a drive-through road stop
17:54<planetmaker>moving the factory... might or might not work :-)
17:55<Zuu>Why not?
17:55<Zuu>(I'm trying it out right now by the way, but with the last nightly, so I would have to re-do it with something older if you want to have the change)
17:56<Zuu>Though, a bit of fiddling will be needed to get it look nice.
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17:57<planetmaker>I try myself with a somewhat recent nightly.
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>"vegetarian trolls turn people into plants and then eat them"
17:57<planetmaker>that game is anyway r16xxx +
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>what did these people smoke when filming that? :p
17:57<Zuu>You probably don't even need to remove the train depot.
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17:59<planetmaker>well... w/o deleting the tracks I don't manage
18:00<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18472 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3146]: selling vehicles in the depot could create states that are not allowed by the NewGRF attach callback.
18:00<frosch123>[23:41] <planetmaker> [23:30]<Darkvater>anybody thought about updating the title screen for the next release? This one was made by Dominik..back in 2005-ish <-- I can offer http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/502/titlegame6.sav
18:00*frosch123 just wanted to be faster
18:00<planetmaker>ty, frosch123
18:00<@Darkvater>:)
18:01<planetmaker>planets are slow in making while frogs jump fast :-P
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>i did want to tell about that earlier, but i was too lazy to search for the link...
18:02<planetmaker>Zuu: I guss adding a road stop is indeed the much easier solution. And IMO it's not like it looks bad
18:03<Zuu>That is probably a good solution.
18:04<Zuu>Here is my first attempt: http://www.student.itn.liu.se/~leili108/OpenTTD/screenshot.png
18:04<frosch123>i always wondered about the isolated canal parts in that game
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18:04<planetmaker>isolate canal? Where?
18:04<frosch123>and we need some way to make rivers static :s
18:05<planetmaker>(long time since I created this map)
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18:05<frosch123>planetmaker: just around Kornheim
18:05<Zuu>Maybe next to the locks?
18:05<planetmaker>looks good, Zuu
18:05<frosch123>(Kornheim the train station)
18:05<planetmaker>ah... those in Kornheim
18:06<Zuu>planetmaker: Ok, but I think it was nice as you made it with the both industries next to eachother.
18:06<planetmaker>I tried to make a venice-like city. Of sorts
18:06<planetmaker>or they're the local re-creational area with a lake where people do duck-feeding and alike
18:07<frosch123>well, but the station in the middle of water looks weird
18:07<frosch123>maybe only the two tile southwest of the station look weird
18:07<frosch123>and the stuff northeast is ok
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18:09<planetmaker>hm, yes. Thanks. Changed :-)
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18:12<planetmaker>and it's a nicely cheated game :-P
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18:12<Zuu>hehe, yea :-)
18:14<Zuu>Under the aqueduct, at the top/left end, there is a four-way street junction which is only attached at one edge of the junction. Is that intended?
18:14<frosch123>the gamelog blames you started it in scenedit :p (though the rivers also do)
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18:15<planetmaker>Zuu: no, the town built it, I think
18:15<planetmaker>frosch123: yes, sure. I needed it for the rivers and some landscaping in order to have the map fit my ideas
18:15<Zuu>Ok, I think some of the roads that go off here and there are okay, they give a bit of life to the road network, but that one looks abit weird.
18:16<Zuu>And you got a nice pling-plong-pling thing in there too :-D
18:16<planetmaker>I'd call starting in the SE though, just individualized map generation
18:17<planetmaker>what's a pling-plong-pling?!?
18:17<Zuu>A road-rail intersection.
18:17<planetmaker>oh
18:17<Zuu>Not sure how to spell the sound in English.
18:18<planetmaker>level crossing
18:18<planetmaker>but yes: it's a feature and needs to be present :-)
18:18<planetmaker>It just needs not ringing every second 10 times
18:18<Zuu>well, that is the word for the thing, but not how you would spell out the sound right? :-)
18:18<planetmaker>I wouldn't even know that in my mother tongue
18:19<Zuu>Maybe you don't spell out weird sounds that much :-)
18:20<planetmaker>I usually don't write them :-P
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18:24<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18473 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r18470): crash when moving a multiheaded part to be just after itself
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18:28<Eddi|zuHause>something's weird with the ICE-TD... you can't move a second ICE-TD behind an existing one, but when you first move a long distance carriage to the second ICE-TD you then can attach that one to the first. anybody ever noticed that?
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if that happens with the ICE 1 also
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>my version is a few months old, though, didn't test with a current nightly
18:30<planetmaker>we only use ICE as intended by the newgrf author :-P
18:30<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the wagon movement has just been rewritten...
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm fairly sure that "multiheading" ICE-TD is "realistic" ;)
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18:32<frosch123>but only in a certain year with a certain unitnumber
18:32<frosch123>and it is only activated when you use the correct company colours
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>dbset doesn't actually use company colours ;)
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>did anyone hear that they want to electrify the line [Dresden-Zwickau-]Reichenbach-Plauen-Hof-Nürnberg? [the route that was used by the ICE-TD]
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18:42<thingwath>do they?
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18:49<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18474 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r18470): in some odd corner cases the group (vehicle) counts could be off
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18:56<Eddi|zuHause>apparently they want to start the first section in Reichenbach in 2010, reach Plauen by 2012 and Hof by 2013
18:56<CIA-4>OpenTTD: frosch * r18475 /branches/0.7/src/genworld.cpp: [0.7] -Fix (r18300)[FS#3344]: Initialisation of cargo payment works different in 0.7 than trunk r18207.
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.spitzenstadt.de/plauen/index.php?menuid=18&reporeid=2229
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>but no word on when they want to finish Hof-Bayreuth-Nürnberg
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19:03<Eddi|zuHause>and apparently the section Reichenbach-Plauen[-Hof] is necessary for the regional trains Leipzig-Plauen, because in order to use the new "City Tunnel" in Leipzig they may not use diesel engines
19:07<thingwath>We all love electrifications. :)
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19:11<Eddi|zuHause>well, it actually looks cute without electrification :) http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/img2702smallpa1xo2v6.jpg
19:12<thingwath>will this bridge survive it?
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>probably not, the article above says many bridges must be rebuilt to fit the catenary
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>and this is one of the candidates
19:13<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18476 /branches/0.7/ (11 files in 5 dirs):
19:13<CIA-4>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
19:13<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: (Invalid) GRFs could trigger invalid reads (r18391)
19:13<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: One could not share orders between buses carrying different cargos (r18380)
19:13<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: Off-by-one in the preconfigured music lists [FS#3339] (r18369)
19:13<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Change [FS#3349]: Recolour the bubble generator just like any other industry (r18409)
19:13<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Add: Some missing latin-ish characters from the OpenGFX set (r18431)
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>they'll be starting with this one, though :) http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Netzschkau_-_Göltzschtalbrücke_2009_1_(aka).jpg&filetimestamp=20090907205613
19:14<thingwath>I hope they are not going to build hundred of kilometers of noise barriers there.
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19:17<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i haven't heard about that...
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's not actually crossing particularly heavily inhabitated areas
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>some people are suggesting it should get an alternative route for freight trains
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>and some people are dreaming about ICEs taking the route München-Nürnberg-Plauen-Chemnitz-Dresden-Berlin [instead of the route München-Nürnberg-Erfurt-Leipzig/Halle-Berlin]
19:24<thingwath>I guess that noise barriers are specific perversion of czech railway engineering. :)
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>well, they are putting up noise barriers here, but not along the whole track
19:24-!-tokai [~tokai@p5B2B26B6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>only in/near cities
19:25<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18477 /branches/0.7/src/ (pbs.cpp station_cmd.cpp town_cmd.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp):
19:25<CIA-4>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
19:25<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: On slopes the original and better road layouts did not check their minimum distance requirements [FS#3332] (r18415)
19:25<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: Aqueducts were not influenced by the "long bridges" setting [FS#3338] (r18407)
19:25<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: Drive through road stops did not get flooded (r18401)
19:25<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: [YAPP] Trains on bridges were not found, when searching for the origin of a reservation [FS#3345] (r18392)
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>i smell a new release[-candidate]
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19:33<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18478 /branches/0.7/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
19:33<CIA-4>OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
19:33<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: When moving a wagon and only the last part of a dual headed engine you could split the dual headed engine over two vehicles (r18462)
19:33<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: [Windows] Forgot to load the symbol from SDL.dll (r18439)
19:33<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not run the 'jam protection' for vehicles in a depot [FS#3360] (r18428)
19:33<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: [Windows] the help window would be too large in some cases [FS#3327] (r18424)
19:33<CIA-4>OpenTTD: - Fix: Under some circumstances a pointer could be left untouched and then freed. Make sure this does not happen by ensuring it starts out as NULL instead of 'garbage' [FS#3298] (r18418)
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19:34<PeterT>What is a backport? Why does it only backport some features?
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>it does not backport any features at all!
19:34<PeterT>What is backport?
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>a commit that was copied from a previous commit to another branch
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>so it was ported from one branch to another
19:36<PeterT>Ah
19:36<PeterT>So in this case, from trunk to 0.7?
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>and porting from 0.8-alpha [trunk] to 0.7 is "backwards", so it's a "backport"
19:36<PeterT>I would consider a bug fix as a feature
19:36<PeterT>The feature of "less crashes"
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>that's a very difficile semantics ;)
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>because if you say "bug" == "feature", then a "bugfix" == "removal of a feature"
19:38<Zuu>Though, while I don't agree with PeterT, he said "bug fix" == "feature"
19:38<PeterT>No, I said "bugfix: == "feature"
19:39<PeterT>Yes ^\
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19:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it was meant as a general "you", as in a different interpretation
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>not a specific "you"
19:41<PeterT>Does a backport usually mean that a new stable is coming?
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>often
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>not always
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19:44<PeterT>This is probably an annoying question, but...
19:44<PeterT>Will there be a 1.0 or 0.10?
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>no, there will be a 0.A
19:44<@Rubidium>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=112851 <- hahah :) completely filled the map with path signals, except where they matter
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>or a 0.9.99
19:45<Plimmer>If I want to merge 3 tracks out into 7 with an even spread, how would I go about and doing that? I cant seem to get my signalling done right.
19:45<PeterT>Look at Rubidium's example :-P
19:45<Plimmer>Heh
19:45<PeterT>or a 0.9.99 <-- Wouldn't you need a 0.9.1 for that?
19:45<Plimmer>Nah, dont like path signals that much. :)
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: of course, they are PATH signals, you only can use them along a single path!
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: if you should use them at junctions, they would be called JUNCTION signals
19:47<@Rubidium>luckily we have block signals that can be used everywhere because the map is full of blocks
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19:48<Eddi|zuHause>there was a guy a few days ago like "blocks? i thought that meant 'tile'!"
19:49<PeterT>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=839428#p839428 <-- this is what you're talking about?
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>i guess so
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19:50<Eddi|zuHause>is that guy playing extra-zoom?
19:51<PeterT>Yeah
19:52<PeterT>That was extra-zoom? I thought it was just 32bpp graphics on a nightly
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>it's at least double zoom, and no nightly had that feature for at least a year
19:53<@Rubidium>more in the order of 3 years
19:53<@Rubidium>@openttd commit 10001
19:53<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Commit by belugas :: r10001 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2007-05-31 15:40:36 UTC)
19:53<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: -Codechange: Add support for removing dynamically allocated newgrf data
19:54<@Rubidium>okay, 2.5 years :)
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>that was definitely not the commit that removed double zoom :p
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>i totally miss that feature :(
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>i should play miniin :p
19:55<@Rubidium>true, but... that was around the time of the r10000 party at which 32bpp was discussed which lead to the implementation of 32bpp which lead to the removal of double zoom for Windows
19:56<frosch123>night
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19:56<Eddi|zuHause>i think it was early 2008-ish
19:57<PeterT>Double zoom?
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19:57<PeterT>What's the difference between that and 32bpp extra zoom?
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>extra zoom has more detailed sprites, while double zoom only doubled the pixels of the existing images
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>and the forum does IT again...
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>why always me?
20:00<PeterT>I was just going to say
20:00<PeterT>Damn back ups
20:00<@Rubidium>@openttd commit 10121
20:00<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Commit by truelight :: r10121 /trunk (32 files in 6 dirs) (2007-06-12 20:24:12 UTC)
20:00<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: -Codechange: split renderer from rest of code; no longer any code directly accesses the video-buffer
20:00<PeterT>Why can't they be at 3AM, when nobody is on the forum?
20:00<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: -Add: added NULL blitter and renderer, which are always used for -vnull
20:00<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: -Add: dedicated driver doesn't blit nor render by default. Can be overruled by user. (-D -b 8bpp-optimized)
20:00<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: -Remove: removed CTRL+D from win32, which is incompatible with above
20:00<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: (...)
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: it's 3AM during the summer, but that doesn't actually help :p
20:01<@Rubidium>so I was 120 revisions/14 days off with r10001
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm... alright... my memory is wrong then ;)
20:02<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause, Is there any advantages to HG, SVN, or GIT? Or does OpenTTD just use all three so that anybody can check out the source?
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>what's the statistics nowadays, do the commits/day still increase?
20:03<@Rubidium>although the 2.5 years is 'only' like 6 hours off
20:03<@Rubidium>no idea; I guess you have to plot that
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>who did the previous plots about code size etc.?
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>was that Darkvater?
20:04<@Rubidium>SmatZ?
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>it's a while ago
20:04<@Rubidium>DV only made a nice movie
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>i think it was before that
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20:10<@Rubidium>oh... almost 5 million bananas downloads :)
20:12<@Rubidium>it'll probably reach 5 million monday morning
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i can't find these graphs in the log :(
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20:19<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i should stop reading news... i can't decide whether to laugh or cry...
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>"german customs stop 16Mio€ deliveries of compressors from siemens to iran, which can be used for rockets"
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>"also a ship was stopped that contains computers for running a nuclear power station"
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>"siemens says 'but it's for civilian use only'"
20:23<fjb>More civilian nuclear plants exploded than nuclear bombs.
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>i only know of two exploded nuclear plants...
20:24<fjb>Ok, may be exploded, but more nuclear plants leaked radioactive stuff.
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>and two bombs in enemy territory [plus a few tests]
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>wait, you don't believe when the news says "but there was honestly no radioactivity leaked and no danger for civilians"
20:27<@Rubidium>yes I believe that
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>it's so funny, because they said that in east german tv during the tschernobyl incident
20:27<fjb>Not always...
20:28<@Rubidium>(given the state of civil rights around the world... there are no civilians anymore, thus no danger to them either)
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>all surrounding countries announced an increase in radiation
20:28<fjb>Hm, yes, no civilians, like in ancient times.
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: well, actually, they recently admitted that there were civilians near the two fuel trucks that were bombed in afghanistan earlier this year
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>so apparently the last 130 civilians on this planet were killed back then :p
20:30<@Rubidium>I reckon civil rights haven't been tampered with in Afghanistan yet
20:31<fjb>No, they have a new term in German: "Unbeteiligte" What is that in English?
20:31<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: non-combatants?
20:31<@Rubidium>http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/460000/images/_461931_japan_nuke_fctbx.gif <- hmm... can that be linearly extrapolated?
20:31<FauxFaux>Canadians.
20:33<fjb>Rubidium: I would say yes.
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21:52<Eddi|zuHause>hm, at the current rate it takes 3600 years to rid Laos of mines/scatter bombs. laos has about 7 Mio inhabitants and an estimated 75 Mio unexploded bombs
21:55<fjb>Happy new year.
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22:20<Eddi|zuHause>those are the wrong kind of firecrackers :p
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22:35<fjb>Oh, really? But the kids play with them.
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 13 00:00:05 2009