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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-12-17

---Logopened Thu Dec 17 00:00:08 2009
00:02<terinjokes>TrueBrain: you active?
00:20<pw-->http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18272-google-demonstrates-quantum-computer-image-search.html
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02:16<@Rubidium>terinjokes: what's it what you want to ask?
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02:29<mirQus>Hello players. ;)
02:34<mirQus>Have you had a moment to look at FS#2806? I still have some time today so I could fix any style issues if the implementation looks reasonable.
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02:42<Terkhen>good morning
03:01<planetmaker>mirQus: and how do I as player define the "primary" cargo?
03:02<planetmaker>or asked differently: will something change for me, if I don't need that?
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03:12<TrueBrain>terinjokes: and at what hour you want to ask
03:14<planetmaker>coma-hour :-P
03:18<TrueBrain>snow snow snow snow snow
03:24*planetmaker wants snow here, too
03:24<planetmaker>though... if you have snow today, I'll have it tomorrow or so ;-)
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03:25<@peter1138>mwahahahahahahahahaha
03:26*peter1138 posts the train control patch, just to tease nekomaster
03:26<Noldo>:D
03:27<planetmaker>:-D
03:27*planetmaker looks for the ear plugs to shut out his whining for a binary
03:28<@Rubidium>ooh... you got a second sun?
03:28<mirQus>planetmaker: You build more wagons than other cargo. :)
03:29<mirQus>Er. ... than for other cargo. :)
03:30<mirQus>planetmaker: The defaults don't change in the today's version, so if you don't need the feature you can easily ignore it.
03:30<Terkhen>a binary and an update of 11000 revisions... that will need a lot of whining
03:31<@Rubidium>ah bah... it's still to early for me
03:31<mirQus>BTW, if you want some snow, there's plenty in Warsaw now. ;)
03:33<planetmaker>hm... so snow West of me, East of me, but non here, just frigging cold
03:33<planetmaker>Alas... out in the cold now :-)
03:34<mirQus>Though the snow here is not good enough to make a snowman. :/
03:35<roboboy>Shame I don't even get snow in my part of the world
03:36<mirQus>roboboy: You could make some in refrigerator. ;)
03:36<roboboy>How ):
03:38<mirQus>Freeze a lot of water, and then 'make it like a sand' (I can't recall a proper verb for it).
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03:41<mirQus>Or boil the water to make a lot of steam and pump it to the cold. That would probably be better 'quality' snow, but also a lot more expensive to make. ;)
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03:49<Noldo>just spay water in to cold air
03:49<Noldo>that's what they do in ski resorts
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03:53<mirQus>So, the refrigerator holds in hot parts of the world. ;)
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04:22<@peter1138>pom te pom
04:27<roboboy>grr
04:28<@peter1138>hehe, 5 fools downloaded it ;)
04:29<roboboy>I nearly did
04:29<blathijs>peter1138: Downloaded what?
04:33<@peter1138>my old train control patch
04:33<@peter1138>some fool was desperate for it, so i posted it for the first time
04:33<@peter1138>it's from r7490 :)
04:34<roboboy>downloaded http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=121485
04:34<roboboy>grr this laptop is so annoying
04:35<@Rubidium>peter1138: but it applies fine to 0.5
04:35<@Rubidium>well, some offsets
04:36<@peter1138>hehe
04:37<@Rubidium>it even compiles without warnings
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04:45<@Rubidium>and works as it did
04:46<@peter1138>badly?
04:48<planetmaker>peter1138, I guess looking at it counts as download...
04:48<@peter1138>well yes
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06:39<@peter1138>lol
06:39<@peter1138>idiot posted a binary
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06:41<@Rubidium>peter1138: does it contain COPYING and such?
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>so how long until someone complains "i cannot load my safegame"?
06:42<@peter1138>not any more
06:42<TrueBrain>safegame? New kind of safety?
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>whatever
06:43*TrueBrain hugs Eddi|zuHause
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06:45<TrueBrain>5M downloads on BaNaNaS :) :) :)
06:45<@Rubidium>old news
06:45<TrueBrain>not for me
06:46<TrueBrain>and not 'that' old, as it is just 74k over it
06:46<@peter1138>cool
06:46<@peter1138>0 downloads on uk.binaries.openttd.org :P
06:46<TrueBrain>mirror system is still not live, yes
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06:47<TrueBrain>Rubidium: what changed on the 2nd of November? Stats normally showed a good multiple in 'sites' against 'visitors', but since the 2nd of Nov it no longer does ...
06:47<@Rubidium>http://thegrebs.com/irc/openttd/2009/12/13#19:54
06:48<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: no clue; maybe the proxy was introduced then?
06:48<TrueBrain>that was longer ago, not?
06:48<@Rubidium>don't know
06:48<TrueBrain>that was in Aug
06:49<TrueBrain>13% of the request is either 403 or 404 ...
06:49<TrueBrain>1% is still hammering a long-gone RSS feed ...
06:50<TrueBrain>and less than 0.5% was due to malfunctioning of a httpd (somewhere between proxy and end-httpd)
06:51<TrueBrain>and the 'country' pie is WEIRD
06:52<@Rubidium>pie, where? I like
06:52<@peter1138>mm pie
06:52<TrueBrain>come over here, and you can ge tsome; I have to warn you, we have much less snow here
06:52<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: what's so weird about the pie?
06:53<TrueBrain>France #1 in Okt
06:53<TrueBrain>Germany #2 in Nov and Dec
06:54<TrueBrain>but France dropped to #8
06:54<@Rubidium>maybe there was some French site that hotlinked our logo?
06:54<TrueBrain>who knows
06:56<@Rubidium>Germany has been in the top #3 for the whole of 2009, so the second place isn't that odd
06:56<dihedral>hehe - running codeswarm at work.... the repo has 46k revs and more :-D
06:56<TrueBrain>Nov 08: 280k unique visitors
06:56<TrueBrain>Nov 09: 306k unique visitors
06:56<@Rubidium>oh, maybe that was when we had that dos?
06:57<TrueBrain>we had one? :p
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06:57<@Rubidium>well... the site was slow and such; a dos that didn't quite cut it
06:57<TrueBrain>Nov 08: 12M hits
06:57<TrueBrain>Nov 09: 17M hits
06:58<TrueBrain>still growing
06:59<dihedral><TrueBrain> we had one? :p <- probably some 13 year old who's patch was not accepted :-P
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08:06<terinjokes>TrueBrain, et al: Sorry, I was asleep ;) I've got some questions about what versions of software you have building the Mac Nightlies
08:07<terinjokes>Another person and I from #wxwidgets over on Freenode (we seem to have glued the network back together, heh) can't reproduce anything you have documented
08:11<terinjokes>(and I read the warning, and was hoping you would be understanding)
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08:19<planetmaker>terinjokes, it's a patched gcc compiler doing its work in a VM which runs a flavour of linux IIRC
08:19<planetmaker>with the apple APIs installed *somewhere*
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08:37<welshdragon>hm
08:37<welshdragon>timetabling my trams has tsopped them bunching
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08:45<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you still lack autoseparation, but at least you can do manual separation now
08:51-!-DaleStan [~Dale@c-24-12-4-37.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:51<blathijs>DaleStan: I'm having a bit of trouble compiling nforenum, apparently <cstdio> must be included in pseudo.cpp
08:51<blathijs>*sigh*
08:53<blathijs>DaleStan: I also need "const" in the declaration of "temp" on getopt.cpp:501
08:54<planetmaker>blathijs, what compiler do you use and what version?
08:55<planetmaker>and what does you makefile.local tell you?
08:56<planetmaker>gcc (SUSE Linux) 4.3.1 20080507 (prerelease) [gcc-4_3-branch revision 135036] <-- doesn't complain
08:56<Ammler>http://obs.openttdcoop.org/specs/openttd-devel-nforenum/nforenum-gcc44.patch <-- I patched it that way to have it working on obs
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08:58<Ammler>!s/I/fedora maintainers/ ;-)
09:00<planetmaker>hm... what compiler do you use that you need it, Ammler ? I just wonder...
09:00<@peter1138>gcc 4.4.x, one would assume from the file name
09:01<Ammler>the patch is backwards compatible, also older gcc works with it.
09:02<Ammler>(I just took the patch from fedoraproject.org)
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09:10<planetmaker>he... yes, those who can read are at a distinct advantage :S
09:12<blathijs>planetmaker: gcc version 4.4.2 (Debian 4.4.2-5)
09:14<blathijs>Ammler: Ah, that's nearly what I did (but I used cstdio instead of fstream because http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/clibrary/cstdio/EOF/ suggests that's the "official" place to look for EOF)
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09:19<Ammler>blathijs: is that also backwards compatible?
09:20<Ammler>I could test it on obs, if you want...
09:23<blathijs>Ammler: Dunno, I'd expect so. I don't think that reference is directly related to gcc releases or something.
09:23<blathijs>Ammler: If you could test, please do
09:24<Ammler>well, what do I need to change on the patch?
09:24<@Rubidium>terinjokes: the versions of the tools used are described in the document (assuming you're looking at the same document that I'm looking at; http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/compile-farm/apple-darwin9.txt)
09:25<@Rubidium>blathijs' diff doesn't look terribly 'older compilers are going to fail on this'
09:25<TrueBrain>terinjokes: and if that doesn't work for anyone else, it is 'too bad'; it works for us. There is also a page: http://cross-compile.info/wiki/Main_Page, which contains slightly more up-to-date information
09:25<TrueBrain>(it is fully based on above mentioned documentation)
09:27<Ammler>[15:24] <Rubidium> blathijs' diff doesn't look terribly 'older compilers are going to fail on this' <-- where do I find that?
09:27<@peter1138>include cstdio instead of fstream
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09:42<blathijs>Ammler: Yeah, what peter1138 said
09:42<Ammler>yep, I already run it that way seems to work down to all distros on obs
09:43<Ammler>wondering about SLES9
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09:43<Luukland>Is it correct that wood isn't the best product to transport in desert environment? I look at the cargo graph and diamonds is now first?
09:45<blathijs>Is there any chance real releases of nforenum will be done in the future?
09:47<Ammler>well, renum isn't the only one, the other "tools" don't have real releases either (cat|grfcodec
09:48<@Rubidium>nforenum and grfcodec have had real releases. catcodec won't get them
09:49<Ammler>blathijs: don't you have boost issues with renum building?
09:50<@Rubidium>so you might need to use 3.4.6-r2267-1 as version
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09:51<Ammler>SLES9 doesn't build: http://pastebin.ca/1718226, well not really necessary ;-)
09:52<Ammler>(gcc 3.3
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09:53<blathijs>Rubidium: I'm going for 3.4.6+svn2267-1
09:54<blathijs>Ammler: And no, no boost issues, no
09:54<planetmaker>blathijs, that sounds like a terrible versioning scheme. Just the svn version suffices
09:54<planetmaker>It has A LOT of changes wrt 3.4.6. It's like similar to 2.0 and current nightlies for TTDP
09:55<blathijs>planetmaker: What if 3.4.7 is released?
09:55<blathijs>Or 3.5 for that matter?
09:55<blathijs>4.0?
09:55<@Rubidium>or 3.5 which is a branch? and 3.5.3 gets a revision higher that 3.6?
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09:56<blathijs>Rubidium: Fair point indeed :-)
09:56<Ammler>at least the + is better than -
09:56<planetmaker>blathijs, does that matter, if you only use the svn version number r2267?
09:56<planetmaker>That doesn't matter then...
09:57<blathijs>planetmaker: As Rubidium pointed out, svn revisions might not be ordered properly
09:57<blathijs>planetmaker: Also, if nforenum does regular releases again, it is quite confusing if those released version numbers are not used in the Debian package...
09:58<Madis>how are the mini santas called in English
09:58<Madis>the ones who help him with gift wrapping etc.
09:59<blathijs>Madis: Santa's helpers, or his elves? (elfs?)
09:59<Madis>kk
10:00<Ammler>Madis: you call those "mini santas"?
10:01<Ammler>are you working on a "special christmas grf"?
10:01<Madis>no, ammler, we call them "päkapikud"
10:02<Ammler>sounds nice ;-)
10:02<@Rubidium>I'd go for elves
10:02<Madis>päkapikk means word to word translated, foot-length
10:02<Madis>:D
10:03<@Rubidium>hmmestonianiswrittenwithoutspaces?
10:03<Madis>no, it is not
10:03<Madis>but we have a lot of words which are written together
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidiumyoueverreadgerman? :p
10:04<Madis>Estonian language is heavily influenced by German ;P
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i believe that
10:04<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: sadly enough, yes
10:05<@Rubidium>guess that's something that happens when you're a 42 minute walk away from Germany
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10:06<Madis>hah
10:06<Ammler>blathijs: comfimed your patch works as fine as the fedora one...
10:06<Madis>btw, we even call Germany "Saksamaa", from the Saxony..
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10:06<blathijs>Ammler: k, thanks. Now dalestan should apply it and all will be well :-)
10:06<Madis>"maa" being 'land'
10:06<Madis>another word written together
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>"päkapikk" <-- does that have any relation to "pikachu" ;)
10:07<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.utwente.de/ and http://www.saxion.de/ probably says enough about how close we're to Germany
10:07<Madis>no
10:08<Madis>päkk is a dialect word for foot and pikk means long
10:09<Madis>but päkapikk has become a word of it's own.. not so much a word made of two words
10:09-!-KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.21.40.168] has joined #openttd
10:09<Madis>the meaning of it anyway
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10:13<blathijs>Is DaleStan still maintainer of the the nforenum code?
10:13<Ammler>blathijs: you added boost to renum manually or how does it work on the old debian with boost < 1.39?
10:13<@Rubidium>blathijs: yes
10:13<blathijs>Ammler: I've only tried on unstable
10:13<blathijs>Then I'll wait until he shows up again. The COPYING file could use some clarification :-)
10:14<@Rubidium>in what sense?
10:14<@Rubidium>looks GPLv2-ish, or isn't it exactly GPLv2?
10:16<@Belugas>hello
10:17<planetmaker>blathijs, you should post that in the tt-forums nforenum thread
10:17<planetmaker>He seems to regularily read that
10:17<planetmaker>At least that's my experience when I posted there.
10:17<planetmaker>Unlike recently the grfcodec thread, though :S
10:17<@Rubidium>Ammler: blathijs isn't working on packaging it for old Debians
10:18<Madis>Ammler should I be working on a Christmas grf?
10:19<@Rubidium>goooood afternoon Belugas... now I'm having the joys of solid rain too
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10:19<Madis>Rubidium what's the temperature over there?
10:20<dihedral>< 20 C
10:20<@Rubidium>~272K
10:21<Madis>well it's -13C here ;)
10:22<Madis>atm
10:22<dihedral>lol
10:22<@Belugas>same in here
10:22<@Belugas>fucking freezing...
10:22<@Rubidium>in here it's like 290-293 K
10:23<@Belugas>:)
10:23<blathijs>Rubidium: It just contains the GPLv2, along with the appendix saying "you should add a note specifying which version of the GPL to use"
10:24<blathijs>Rubidium: It should say "Licensed under GPLv2 or later, GPLv2 is included here", like some/most?/all? source files say?
10:25<@Rubidium>ah, anyhow... COPYING is almost the same as OpenTTD's COPYING
10:25<@Rubidium>minus the address change, name change of LGPL and making Y2K 'compatible'
10:26<blathijs>Rubidium: Yeah, but OpenTTD has a readme.txt with the licensing info
10:27<@Rubidium>ah, okay... so just a simple line saying: "This is licensed under version X of GPL, see COPYING.txt"
10:27<blathijs>Yeah, exactly.
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10:27<@Rubidium>hmm, is catcodec doing that?
10:28<blathijs>Dunno, I started with the nforenum since that was the first thing opengfx complained about :-)
10:28<@Rubidium>ah :)
10:29<@Rubidium>oh, catcodec doesn't seem to have a readme
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10:29<@Rubidium>it does mention the GPL version in each source file and in it's help
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: 290K indoor? that's fairly cold
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10:31<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: does it need to be that warm in a room I don't use?
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>when you say "in here", that would indicate that you use the room ;)
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>and rooms that i don't use are way colder
10:32<@Rubidium>oh, well... I reckon that near the ventilation it's 290K
10:33<@Rubidium>blathijs: is a readme necessary for OpenTTD? It has a manpage to compensate though
10:34<blathijs>Rubidium: Eh? OpenTTD already has a readme?
10:34<blathijs>Rubidium: If you're referring to catcodec, I think it's useful to have a central place with license info
10:34<@Rubidium>blathijs: s/OpenTTD/catcodec/ :)
10:35<blathijs>Rubidium: In every file is good, but it's not really useful if one has to manually check all files to be sure :-)
10:35<blathijs>But a note on top of COPYING would probably be fine as well
10:36<blathijs>(And removing the appendix from the GPL might be useful to prevent confusion, also for OpenTTD)
10:36<@Rubidium>but that wouldn't be packaged for Debian
10:38<@Rubidium>cp /usr/share/common-licenses/GPL-2 COPYING && svn diff -x -b <- is empty, meaning it's the same to Debian's, which is probably better than "it's not the same", because then you'd have to research what changed etc.
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10:43<blathijs>Rubidium: Fair point, so a README is better, I guess
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10:49<xopek>hi
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10:57<Zuu>hi xopek
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11:01<sparrL>I am playing with large junction design for the first time. here is 1/4 of a LLL_RRR spiral hub for 3-tile trains. total size 65x65 with an 18x18 hole in the middle. thoughts, corrections? http://i45.tinypic.com/2mouo3a.png
11:04<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18521 /extra/catcodec/ (Makefile.bundle README catcodec.1):
11:04<CIA-4>OpenTTD: [catcodec] -Add: readme
11:04<CIA-4>OpenTTD: [catcodec] -Fix: spelling error in manpage
11:06<SpComb^>it's not connected to anything, and doesn't have any trains on it
11:07<sparrL>:-p
11:08<fjb>65 x 65 tiles for 3 tile short trains?
11:08<sparrL>fjb: i am trying to shrink it
11:08<sparrL>i've got a few ideas to utilize the central space, and possibly add some tunnels
11:09<Markk>Original or realistic acceleration?
11:09<fjb>And what happens when 4-tile short trains reach it?
11:10<SpComb^>five tiles is better
11:10<sparrL>Markk: an excellent question, to which i do not know the answer. i've been playing in #openttdcoop, and they want 2.5-tile curves for 3-tile trains, so that's what i've been practicing with
11:10<sparrL>fjb: i expect it would slow down on some of the curves
11:10<Markk>Okey :)
11:11<sparrL>the "straight through" paths have some 3.5-tile curves
11:11<SpComb^>also, what is an LLL_RRR spiral hub?
11:11<sparrL>SpComb^: sorry... it's a junction for two 3-tracks-each-way lines
11:12<sparrL>intersecting at an X (as opposed to a T)
11:12<Markk>Like in this junction: http://cdn.solidfiles.net/i/0uIc.png
11:12<Markk>No curve in that junction will make a train slow down at all
11:12<Markk>Oh, was an old screenshot
11:13<Markk>I've improved that junction from that point
11:13<sparrL>kinda like that, but with more tracks in each direction, and no missing exit options
11:14<SpComb^>fair amount of up-and-down
11:14<sparrL>SpComb^: good point.. i could flatten a lot of it though
11:14<Markk>Here is another one from the same map (and save): http://cdn.solidfiles.net/i/kobv.png
11:14<SpComb^>sparrL: no missing exit options?!
11:15<sparrL>in Markk's screenshots some trains coming into that junction can't exit in all 3 possible exit directions
11:15<SpComb^>Markk: your junctions aren't really all that busy :P
11:15<SpComb^>sparrL: and in yours, they can?
11:15<sparrL>yes
11:15<Markk>SpComb^: not at the moment of that junction
11:15<SpComb^>then you must have posted the wrong screenshot or something
11:16<sparrL>the screenshot is 1/4 of the hub
11:16<sparrL>it is to be rotated 3 times
11:16<SpComb^>ew
11:16<sparrL>one side of a square hub
11:16<SpComb^>Markk's game is still relatively sane
11:16<sparrL>total size is 65x65 AFTER that
11:16<SpComb^>does openttdcoop assume a flat plane of infinite size?
11:16<sparrL>no :)
11:16<sparrL>hence the desire to shrink it
11:17<Markk>But I don't want any quene at all :P
11:17<sparrL>the 2-tracks-each-way variant is a lot smaller, and finding a 20x20 flat plane is plausible in most games
11:17<sparrL>Markk: your screenshots are of junctions for much less tracks
11:17<SpComb^>they're also more organic
11:17<sparrL>quite
11:18<Markk>sparrL: Okey :P
11:18<Markk>I use 4-tracks most of the times
11:18<sparrL>the one i'm working on is for 3 northbound tracks, 3 southbound tracks, 3 east...
11:18*SpComb^ preferrs 1-way tracks
11:18<SpComb^>with reluctant upgrades to two-way
11:19<sparrL>SpComb^: can't really complain about my 65x65 if Markk's are similar size
11:21<sparrL>63x63 :)
11:21<sparrL>61x61
11:22<sparrL>i need to compile in the copy/paste patch
11:22<sparrL>would make things like this easier
11:22<SpComb^>you know there's a large number of people who oppose use of any copy/paste patch
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11:29<Eddi|zuHause>i don't exactly oppose to the copy-paste patch, but i have exactly 0 use for it...
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11:30<SpComb^>say no to pro-choice!
11:30<SpComb^>I mean
11:31<_ln>you so mean
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11:35<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what that means
11:35<sparrL2>Eddi|zuHause: it would save me a lot of time
11:35<sparrL2>i'm not very fast with laying track
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11:38<@Rubidium>it would save you a bit of time and guarantees more bugs
11:38<Plimmer>sparrL2, use "a" "b" "e" "t", when I started using thoose keyboard shortcuts my build speed went up a bit.
11:39<sparrL2>Plimmer: knew about those
11:39<sparrL2>just today discovered using the number keys
11:39<sparrL2>b 2 b 2 b 2 b 2 :)
11:39<sparrL2>wish there was an option to display invalid bridges
11:39<sparrL2>so the numbers wouldnt change
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>Plimmer: i use the "r" key a lot
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>and F1 ;)
11:41<sparrL2>omg @ f1 for pause
11:41<sparrL2>ive been using pause
11:41<sparrL2>which is a fn+key on my laptop
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>sparrL2: all the F-keys have a button associated
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>and i think a second one with shift or ctrl, don't remember
11:43<Plimmer>Arent you missing a tile at brige d after the bridge for a signal?
11:43<Plimmer>And the same goes for h
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>sparrL2: and really the "a" key is one of the most important
11:43<sparrL2>Plimmer: I was under the impression that you could have synced bridges without that extra tile if the bridges were sufficiently short?
11:44<sparrL2>with just 2 signals at each end, instead of 3
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11:44<Plimmer>Oh, not sure about that.
11:44<sparrL2>one being a path signal
11:44<Plimmer>If thats what they say over at coop I wont argue. :)
11:46<andythenorth>hai hai
11:46<sparrL2>they mostly ignore my stupid signaling questions over there
11:47<sparrL2>when i'm happy with the whole design i will make 3 copies and put a bunch of trains on it
11:47<Plimmer>Somestimes I cant even understand their signalling.
11:48<andythenorth>tum te tum
11:48<andythenorth>http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/2009/12/the-worlds-largest-ore-carryin.html
11:48*andythenorth (reaches for pixel crayons)
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>how is the "cargo trams" coming along?
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>brb...
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11:49<Plimmer>Do thoose drive on regular roads?
11:50<andythenorth>there is a doctor's saying in the UK: 'normal for (insert place name)'
11:51<andythenorth>I suspect they drive on roads that are 'normal for australia'
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11:59<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18522 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: add the possibility to not make new tree tiles in-game
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12:20<Eddi|zuHause>does that mean "trees spread only on tiles that already have a tree"?
12:20<@Rubidium>yes
12:20<@Rubidium>(and eventually die)
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>it wouldn't be such a problem if the spread rate was remotely balanced to the death rate
12:22<fjb>Virtual sheep.
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12:46<Timmaexx>Good Evening
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12:48<@peter1138>damn, ttrs doesn't half produce a lot of passengers
12:49<SpComb^>peter1138: giant screenshot
12:49<SpComb^>even if it's 150MB
12:51<@peter1138>28MB ~ 48KB/s
12:52<@peter1138>different game mind you
12:52<@peter1138>this time with newstations too
13:01<@peter1138>SpComb^, if you must... http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/F%c3%bcrstenhaven%20Transport%2c%201926-02-04.png
13:02<frosch123>"never click on giant screenshots"
13:03<frosch123>btw. where is petert? noone shouted "feature, feature, will it get into 0.7.5"?
13:03<@peter1138>hehe
13:04<@peter1138>that map was generated with the heightmap curve
13:04<@peter1138>i quite like the result
13:04<frosch123>but it still uses homogeneous noise amplitudes, right?
13:05<planetmaker>he... yet another tgp knob or slider: slope of noise amplitudes? :-)
13:07<frosch123>the word "knob" is reserved for undo-functionality
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13:12<planetmaker>oh, sorry :-P
13:13<planetmaker>(why did you have to remind me! I used that word in complete innocence!)
13:13<@Rubidium>why did you have to utter that word?
13:13<planetmaker>I like to press knobs and shift sliders and... you know-what-not ;-)
13:14<planetmaker>I was once told there are three levels of safety: easiest is children safe. Worse is physicists-safe and worst is medical-doctors-safe
13:15<planetmaker>they were building machinery for hospitals in that company...
13:16<@Rubidium>what, making a successor of the therac-25?
13:18*planetmaker has no idea what that might be.
13:19<@Rubidium>oh, a radiation machine that if pressing the wrong buttons can give you a lethal dosis
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13:20<@Rubidium>http://sunnyday.mit.edu/papers/therac.pdf
13:20<planetmaker>he... I guess they were mostly producing lasers or so...
13:20<planetmaker>but sounds like a fun machinery :-P
13:22<SpComb^>bit more complicated than just pressing the wrong buttons
13:22<SpComb^>someone failed at their concurrent programming stuff
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13:22<@Rubidium>and management failed on doing proper testing
13:22<@Rubidium>and ... and ...
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13:23<SpComb^>testing for those kinds of issues in software is difficult
13:23<@Rubidium>true-ish; there are all kinds of model checkers to check whether your design is sound
13:24<@Rubidium>although that doesn't rule out implementation errors
13:24<@Rubidium>on the other hand doing a review might help in reducing implementation errors, especially if it's compared with the model checked model
13:25<planetmaker>and there's always such things as testing the whole product ... kinda proto-type testing...
13:25<@Rubidium>but then again, that's expensive... and like Boeing and Airbus human life it's part of the cost calculations
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>what did that airline pay for a death? 20.000€?
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>the french one
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>that's really negligible comparing to the cost of development and testing
13:27<@Rubidium>yes, although the 'image' has value too
13:27<planetmaker>well... but not in terms of image. which is an expensive and ...
13:27<planetmaker>... quite difficult thing to manage and 'buy'
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of difficult? that's exactly what pr-companies are selling
13:28<@Rubidium>advertising is stupid
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>pr does not only consist of advertising
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13:29<@Rubidium>if one company starts advertising the others have to start in order to not lose their market. As such they are all advertising to retain their market... which would work exactly as well as when they didn't advertise.
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: mixing alpine with opengfx in the wrong order? those shores look really ugly
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13:38<frosch123>he, doesn't ogfx use the 10 sprite version?
13:39<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that is an ogfx bug
13:40<planetmaker>hm... can you be more specific what is wrong there?
13:40<planetmaker>yes, I see the result. That doesn't look nice...
13:40<planetmaker>But...
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>i only see the result, i can't say what's wrong
13:42<frosch123>planetmaker: i described it on the wiki
13:42<frosch123>there is a 16 and a 10 sprite version for shore action5
13:42<frosch123>basesets should use to 10 sprite version, as that one is deactivated when newgrfs replace shore using actiona
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13:43<planetmaker>ok... and obviously in ogfxe_extra it uses 16?
13:43<frosch123>it works with openttdw/d.grf
13:43<frosch123>:p
13:43<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, as opengfx is a base set... hard to get it the wrong order
13:43<frosch123>anyway, i am leaving for sports
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13:44<planetmaker>yes, they have 16 tiles for each climate.
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>alpine is too old, so it has only the 10 tile version, which cannot overwrite the 16 tile version anymore?
13:45<planetmaker>maybe. I don't know.
13:45<planetmaker>Might be worth testing
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: translators * r18523 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: dutch - 5 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: french - 4 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-4>OpenTTD: german - 8 changes by planetmaker
13:45<planetmaker>he... 'programming' opengfx was easy. Till all those nasty details started to surface...
13:46<planetmaker>:-)
13:46<planetmaker>or should I say 'ignorance is a bliss'?
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13:56<ashb> /w 276
13:58<planetmaker>?
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14:05<@Belugas>ashb : please, if you like noise, do your noise somewhere else
14:05<@Belugas>[12:00] <ashb> W 39 <--- from yesterday
14:05<ashb>yeah its this keyboard. need to setup irssi filters
14:05-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@82.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
14:05<ashb>(aka sorry)
14:06<@Belugas>apologies accepted :)
14:07<@peter1138>also
14:07<@peter1138>if you have 276 windows, perhaps you ought to ... leave it a bit
14:07<ashb>no - that was also the new keyboard, i have about 40
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14:09<andythenorth>hmm
14:09<andythenorth>my town is dying :(
14:09<andythenorth>800 -> 160
14:09<andythenorth>(inhabitants)
14:09<@Rubidium>you killed its heart?
14:10<SpComb^>*your* town?
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14:11<andythenorth>oh, it just built a stadium!
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14:18<Eddi|zuHause>am i too un-geek-y if i am only in like 6 channels?
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14:19<SpComb^>I know a few good ones you could join
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14:42<@peter1138>is sacro in them?
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14:45<@peter1138>toyland map generator doesn't work :/
14:46<planetmaker>hm?
14:51<@peter1138>try it
14:53<planetmaker>which map generator? Original or terragen?
14:54<planetmaker>it always worked for me... that's why I'm asking
14:54<@peter1138>original, with original graphics
14:54<@peter1138>hmm
14:54<@peter1138>maybe it's the grfs i have loaded
14:54<@peter1138>never mind
14:55<@peter1138>bloody grfs
14:55<@peter1138>useless things
14:55<planetmaker>hm... original indeed looks ugly. But the same shit as with the other climates. Wrong sprites...
14:56<sparrL>Plimmer: here's a bigger one, for 3 tracks each way: http://i49.tinypic.com/2vvqan7.png
14:57<sparrL>i mean, smaller
14:57<sparrL>it takes up less space :)
15:01<fjb>Now you only need to generate a world around.
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15:09<Eddi|zuHause>what's the use of this abomination?
15:09<Noldo>planetmaker: do you know how the map generator sprites in opengfx were created?
15:10<sparrL>Eddi|zuHause: 4 of them (ignoring the duplicated part by the letters) makes a "complete" junction for 3 tracks in each direction
15:10<sparrL>complete insofar as each incoming train can exit in any direction
15:10<sparrL>on the (relatively) same track it entered on
15:11<planetmaker>Noldo: I have no idea. I don't even know *where* they are.
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember that someone put random noise in them, and rubidium had to add a function that makes a sanity check on the sprites
15:13<Yexo>that's right Eddi|zuHause
15:13<Yexo>unless something has changed the map generator sprites in opengfx are random noise
15:14<planetmaker>I searched OpenTTD's source code for the sprite numbers. But I didn't find them. Any clue?
15:14<Yexo>I'll have a look
15:14<planetmaker>I didn't find them in OpenGFX either. Unless I look through 1000s of lines manually...
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>check src/table/sprites.h?
15:14<planetmaker>I did. Either I'm blind or it's not in there
15:15<planetmaker>I looked at all src/table/*.h files for that matter...
15:15<planetmaker>and tgp.* and the other terrain generation files whose names I forgot
15:15<Yexo>landscape.cpp:715
15:17<planetmaker>thanks, Yexo
15:17<Yexo>looks like it's 4845 and onward
15:17<Yexo>does that make sense?
15:17<@peter1138>they're in one of the sub-files, not r1
15:17<@peter1138>er, 1r?
15:18<@peter1138>logos.grf
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i should pay attention to what i update...
15:18<@peter1138>ogfxi_logos.grf, i mean
15:19<@peter1138>sprites 52 to 88
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>i removed kdebase3 [contains kate], and installing kate (kde4) isn't done yet...
15:19<planetmaker>totally right, peter1138 . Thanks!
15:20<Noldo>I looked at the original sprites once
15:20<@peter1138>if you look at the originals you can see it's clearly a bit of heightmap
15:20<@Rubidium>static inline bool IsMapgenSpriteID(SpriteID sprite) { return IsInsideMM(sprite, 4845, 4882); }
15:21<@peter1138>of course, you can't do that due to copyright/clean-room ... ;)
15:21<@peter1138>Rubidium, mmm, numbers ;)
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>MAGIC NUMBERS I BANISH THEE!
15:22<Noldo>would it be possible to convert the sprites so that each color index would appear as a shade of gray?
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo: the colours are purely client side
15:22<Noldo>for editing I mean
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>openttd only cares about the palette index
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>you can change the local palette
15:23<planetmaker>well... one can always use other height maps.
15:29<Yexo>the map generator sprites are heighmaps. Several of those are rotated/mirrored and combined in the actual map
15:29<Yexo>combining is done by first setting the height of all tiles to 0, then several random heighmap sprites are chosen and each applied in turn
15:30<Yexo>when a heightmap sprite is applied first a random location and orientation and chosen, then the height of all tiles in the to-be-updated area is set to the max of the current height and the value from the heighmap
15:31<Yexo>only the lower 4 bits of each byte in the heighmap sprite are used
15:32<Yexo>so basically store some simple heightmaps in those sprites and see if that gives better results then the current random noise
15:33<@peter1138>it will
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>the question is: does anybody ever use the original map generator?
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15:35<Eddi|zuHause>oh i remember TTO, where you had only one kind of mountain...
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15:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm... so why does it suddenly say "*** WARNING: Direct Rendering is NOT enabled"
15:37<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: probably none of the people who play nightlies
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15:46*planetmaker just adds random patches pink to the blue mapgen sprites
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: like i said, you can change the palette to something more heightmap-style
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15:51<SpComb^>peter1138: boo, you should have given me a giant screenshot of your earlier game :(
15:51<SpComb^>the new one is yet quite dull
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16:01<Noldo>Yexo: so none of the sprites has any special role? is just picks some at random combines them?
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16:02<Yexo>some of them are only picked in a certain climate
16:02<Yexo>so it's not completely random
16:04<Noldo>and lower 4 bits means I need only the first 2^4 colors defined?
16:04<Yexo>I guess so
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16:18<@peter1138>also known as '16'
16:18<Noldo>hmm, why did I choose red and green when they are the colors I have problems separating
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16:20<planetmaker>hm... that's strange. I use the same colours as the original sprites... but my maps are WAY flatter... :S
16:20<planetmaker>even putting the mountains in the same sprites only, doesn't help...
16:20<planetmaker>strange
16:21<planetmaker>Noldo: you work on those sprites?
16:21<Noldo>well, trying to create a nice colormap first
16:22<planetmaker>http://colorbrewer2.org/ <-- use one of those, maybe?
16:22<planetmaker>even you should then be able to discern them.
16:22<Noldo>NIH!
16:24<planetmaker>so... can I assign the task to come up with a new version of mapgen.pcx and rely on that?
16:24<planetmaker>:-)
16:27<SpComb^>is the OpenTTDCoop newgrf pack still maintained?
16:28<planetmaker>well... sort of. But we won't add new newgrfs anymore
16:28<SpComb^>wondering becaues 7.3 was released last year, it has and old version of the german road vehicles, and using it causes all the default vehicles to show up in the game early
16:28<planetmaker>We like to encourage the use of bananas
16:28<planetmaker>there's a new version planned somewhen, though
16:29<planetmaker>for very good reasons we might add a newgrf, but...
16:29<planetmaker>is there no version of the GermanRV on bananas?
16:29<SpComb^>well, bugreport: enableing germanrw.grf causes all the default vehicles to show up in the year 1920, in addition to the german ones
16:29<SpComb^>not that I can see
16:30<planetmaker>which version do you use?
16:30<SpComb^>of?
16:30<planetmaker>the one from the coop pack? of the GermanRV set.
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16:30<planetmaker>there's somewhere version 0.21 or so.
16:30<SpComb^>yeah, I noticed
16:31<SpComb^>haven't tried it yet, will do
16:33<fjb>GermanRV modifies the original vehicles because the set still lacks trucks.
16:34<SpComb^>hmm, 0.21 just complains that its incompatible with HOVS UK Bus Set, but I don't have that activated
16:34<SpComb^>fjb: but is it supposed to make them all available in the year 1920?
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: there should be a parameter to disable the compatibility checks
16:35<fjb>0.2 deactivates itself when it finds any road vehicles set it knows about. I found only the hover craft bus.
16:36<fjb>Not all 1920, but it makes some appear earlier so you have trucks in 1920.
16:37<SpComb^>ah, didn't read that version of the readme... but adding a parameter of 1 doesn't help
16:37<SpComb^>and as far as I can tell, it's the only rv set that I have enabled
16:37<welshdragon>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46351
16:37<planetmaker>0.2.1 has that fixed wrt 0.2
16:38<SpComb^>this is v0.21
16:38<SpComb^>released last week
16:39<planetmaker>ok, then it (still) doesn't work. Make a bug report for the author
16:42<SpComb^>hmm, not on IRC
16:43<planetmaker>nope
16:43<Noldo>do the grf generating tools care about the colormap/palette ?
16:43<planetmaker>well... usually yes
16:43<Noldo>so I can't rip the extra colors out of mapgen.pcx's map :/
16:44<planetmaker>TTD windows palette is what OpenGFX uses
16:44<planetmaker>hu?
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16:44<SpComb^>do the grf tools work on linux?
16:44<planetmaker>yes.
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo: afair grfcodec can discard the palette
16:44<planetmaker>http://www.openttd.org/download-grfcodec
16:45<planetmaker>and nforenum and catcodec
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16:45<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: yes. But only for a whole (new)grf. The other sprites need the palette. Thus the mapgen sprites, too
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: if it uses the palette indexes, nothing should go wrong
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16:48<SpComb^>hmm, it wants upx for compiling
16:49<@Rubidium>just remove the lines with UPX :)
16:53<@peter1138>pointless crap
16:53<Ammler>SpComb^: you might need this patch too: http://obs.openttdcoop.org/specs/openttd-devel-grfcodec/compile.patch
16:53<Ammler>gcc44
16:55<SpComb^> 14 * 9 07 88 04 \7gg 44 44 04 01 01
16:55<SpComb^> 15 * 59 0B 03 7F "ÿHOVS UK Bus Set is incompatible, "
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>so you have a grf with id 44440401 active
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16:57<SpComb^>444404
16:57<SpComb^>oh wait, yes
16:58<SpComb^>but it is not active, the germanrv is the only grf that is loaded/active
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know your grf list
17:01<SpComb^>the "NewGRF Settings" window only lists one GRF
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17:02<SpComb^>but the "Available NewGRF files" window does list HOVS and many more
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but those should not count...
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17:03<SpComb^>so I thought
17:04<Noldo>is there some HOWTO on compiling OpenGFX?
17:05<sparrL>Yexo: for the map generator sprites, storing pseudo-random waveforms of different frequency would produce nice results if the heights were added
17:05<sparrL>not sure how the max() operation will affect it
17:06<planetmaker>Noldo: in principle yes: the readme ;-)
17:06<planetmaker>in practical terms: have you a hg checkout of the repository? Or a de-compiled version?
17:06<Noldo>hg
17:06<planetmaker>then a simple make should do
17:06<Noldo>and got grfcodec on the path too
17:07<planetmaker>you need also gcc
17:07<planetmaker>and renum
17:07<Noldo>maybe it's renum
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: it works here...
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17:09<planetmaker>Noldo: oh... and you need md5sum
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>hm... brick chain doesn't work in arctic?
17:10<planetmaker>all clay frozen. No bricks baked
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>i could use it with alpine, though...
17:12<SpComb^>Eddi|zuHause: hrm, I am running OpenTTD r18495
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>i'm running r18450M, there shouldn't be a lot of changes
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17:13<SpComb^>hmm, fails for me with clean trunk r15890 as well
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>you are doing something wrong ;)
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>feature(-ish) request: when the town name grf is not loaded anymore, fall back to the previously used "default" name set, not english
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17:16<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: that information is not stored in the savegame
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: not savegame, main menu
17:17<Noldo>Sleep now, retry tomorrow
17:17<Yexo>even there the information is not saved currently
17:17<Yexo>but that could be implemented I guess
17:17<SpComb^>Eddi|zuHause: where did you download the .grf from?
17:17<SpComb^>could you give me a copy of yours?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>http://uwe.s2000.ws/ttdx/germanrv/index.php?lang=de
17:19<SpComb^>mine shows with an md5sum of 332fc1...b94918
17:21<sparrL>is there a GRF set that gets rid of the 'noise' on grass and water tiles?
17:21<sparrL>would make screenshots a lot smaller
17:21<SpComb^>my unzip must be broken and flipping bits or something
17:22<SpComb^>332fc1c583de9b329349d9dc0bb94918 for germanrvw.grf
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17:22<Eddi|zuHause>that's what mine says, too
17:23<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18524 /extra/catcodec/ (README catcodec.cpp findversion.sh): [catcodec] -Fix: make catcodec compile when it's not a repository checkout
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>"svn: Can't connect to host 'svn.openttd.org': Invalid argument" <-- ?!?
17:23<@Rubidium>lol
17:23<SpComb^>then it doesn't make much sense, I've tried this with r18523
17:24<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: did you forget to add "svn://" in front of it?
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: i just did "svn up"
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>in my working copy that i have used for years
17:25<@Rubidium>it works for me
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>probably a local problem
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>system, not network
17:25<SpComb^>I'll try with a self-compiled 0.7.4 for good measure
17:27<SpComb^>nope...
17:31<SpComb^>there needs to be some kind of openttd-grf debugger :(
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17:31<SpComb^>for single-stepping through NFO
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17:31<sparrL>is it intentional that modifying the map smoothness doesn't affect the difficulty rating? i find that a smooth un-flat map is often easier to play on than an un-smooth flat map, but difficulty is linked to flatness and not smoothness
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: just change the 0B into a 0C, then it will get ignored ;)
17:32<@Rubidium>lots of settings can be changed to change difficulty but they don't influence the difficulty setting
17:32<sparrL>what i mean is...
17:33<sparrL>if you modify the flatness, you cannot play Easy / Medium / Hard, just Custom
17:33<SpComb^>Eddi|zuHause: something else will probably break after that...
17:33<sparrL>but you can modify the smoothness and stay in Easy
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17:34<@Rubidium>arguably medium with build on slopes disabled and the original acceleration is harder than hard with build on slopes enabled and 'realistic' acceleration
17:35<sparrL>sure, but no advanced settings affect difficulty
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>i think realistic acceleration is way too easy (compared with the original)
17:35<SpComb^>Eddi|zuHause: heh, now it did load
17:35<sparrL>in this case there are two basic map settings, and their affect on the difficulty rating is disproportionate to their actual difficulty
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>and the freight train multiplicator doesn't cut it
17:38<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18525 /extra/catcodec/findversion.sh: [catcodec] -Fix (r18524): didn't give the version the compile farm expects
17:38<SpComb^>I can't really report a bug to the GRF author if it works for you, though :/
17:39-!-DarkED2 [~J@cpe-069-132-093-098.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
17:39<SpComb^>except... I think I may see it
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17:40<fjb>Who cares for easy or difficult setting any way?
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17:40<_ln>so when can we build cargo trams?
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17:41<SpComb^> 12 * 6 07 85 01 \70 78 02
17:41<SpComb^> 13 * 6 09 00 01 \7= 01 E0
17:41<SpComb^> 14 * 9 07 88 04 \7gg 44 44 04 01 01
17:41<SpComb^> 15 * 59 0C 03 7F "<FF>HOVS UK Bus Set is incompatible, "
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>_ln: when you load a grf that contains them
17:41<SpComb^>that first action7 skips right to the actionB
17:41<SpComb^>so if you don't have dynamicengines on, it fails
17:41<SpComb^>Eddi|zuHause: can you try turning dynamicengines off and see if the germanrv grf fails with that error?
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17:42<@peter1138>~
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: confirmed
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: shall i report it?
17:43<SpComb^>yay, I can send a .nfo patch \o/
17:43<SpComb^>I can
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, there's hardly a reason to disable that setting ;)
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17:44<SpComb^>well, for some reason it's off for me
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's off by default
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>some of the default settings should be reviewed for newbie-friendliness
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>most of the default settings are for ttd-compatibility
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>but hardly any newbie will want that...
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17:48<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: then come up with an improvement...
17:54<SpComb^>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=841198#p841198
17:54<SpComb^>diff'd
17:55<SpComb^>now... what was I doing... oh yes, I was trying to play a game of OpenTTD :P
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17:59<SpComb^>cargodist, daylength factor, 512x512 alpine, no industries, low towns, german trains/vehicles
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18:03<Eddi|zuHause>i like industries :(
18:03<SpComb^>I like long distances between towns
18:03<SpComb^>gives you room to build
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>i like many villages
18:04<SpComb^>well, I'd preferr to have too few towns as opposed to too many currently, while playing with cargodist
18:06<SpComb^>also, whoever had to idea of making cloned vehicles detect and increment a number suffix on the vehicle's name is a genius
18:07<@peter1138>hmm, who wrote that one?
18:07<@Rubidium>that Nelson guy?
18:08<@Rubidium>what was his nick? uhm... petert?
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18:08<Eddi|zuHause>Ha Ha! :p
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18:09<Prof_Frink>I dunno, but he has a mighty column.
18:09<CIA-4>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18526 /extra/catcodec/catcodec.1: [catcodec] -Fix: some mans rather like .sp to denote newlines than an actual empty line, which is accepted by some other mans
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18:10<@peter1138>@openttd commit 15621
18:10<@DorpsGek>peter1138: Commit by peter1138 :: r15621 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2009-03-05 17:37:56 UTC)
18:10<@DorpsGek>peter1138: -Feature: When cloning a vehicle with a custom name, add and/or increment a number at the end of name and assign it to the new vehicle (for emma)
18:10<@peter1138>ohhh him
18:10<terinjokes>TrueBrain: the only thing that isn't mention in the documentation is which version of GCC you used to compile the apple version of odcctools
18:10<terinjokes>(and I respect if you don't want to answer, and I'll bang my head trying to figure it out on my own)
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18:12<@Rubidium>terinjokes: Debian's gcc-4.3 of about a year ago works
18:13<terinjokes>Rubidium: k, about the version I'm using... even checked out the same revision of odcctools from the svn, and no go... let me try again (thanks for the help you are giving)
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18:15<Eddi|zuHause>so who the fuck is emma?
18:15<@peter1138>presumably an ottd player
18:16<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: Alice's friend.
18:16<@Rubidium>terinjokes: what Linux are you using? TrueBrain uses Gentoo and for Debian I had to modify some stuff to get it compiling (different headers and such)
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>Alice and Emma -- Lesbian Action?
18:17<terinjokes>Rubidium: I have CrunchBang (a derivative of Ubuntu) in VM.... I'm a Gentoo user nativally, and don't mind doing an install to the VM
18:17<Prof_Frink>Alice, Alice, who the fuck is Alice?
18:18<terinjokes>Prof_Frink: she has a restuarant in New Jersey (near all that transportation!)
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: yes, i did have that phrase in mind when writing that ;)
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18:19<Eddi|zuHause>in germany we have so called "aunt emma shops"
18:21<@peter1138>Alice, what's the matter?
18:26<CIA-4>OpenTTD: yexo * r18527 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: an industry newgrf that defined a too small size for action0 prop 0A could cause a crash
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18:35<terinjokes>Rubidium: ?
18:35<@Rubidium>terinjokes: !
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18:36<terinjokes>Rubidium: you mentioned you had to change things under debian?
18:36<@Rubidium>yes, add some 'missing' headers IIRC
18:37<terinjokes>Rubidium: you mean from that big long error i get ;)
18:38<@Rubidium>yes; maybe http://devs.openttd.org/~rubidium/osx.tar.bz2 can help you
18:39<@Rubidium>no idea which odcctools that's based upon, although it might be after they merged some of TB's patches
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18:40<terinjokes>Rubidium: they did
18:40<terinjokes>the last two on that page actually
18:46<TrueBrain>[00:10] <terinjokes> TrueBrain: the only thing that isn't mention in the documentation is which version of GCC you used to compile the apple version of odcctools <- any gcc3+ should work; it might give some warnings; if you are not able to fix those yourself, cross-compiling is not for you :)
18:48<terinjokes>TrueBrain: i got cross-compile working with Windows... and I'm determined to get it working for OSX... ;)
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18:53<TrueBrain>so did I, and I succeeded .. where everyone told me it was impossible ;)
18:53<TrueBrain>Gentoo btw is easiest to use for this
18:53<@peter1138>cos you have to compile everything anyway?
18:53<@peter1138>woot, maps with variation
18:53<terinjokes>TrueBrain: yes... except I don't have a VM image for Gentoo (even though I run it natively!)
18:54<TrueBrain>download one
18:54<TrueBrain>create one
18:54<TrueBrain>;)
18:54<TrueBrain>but, Rubidium has it running on Debian, so that is possible too
18:54<TrueBrain>latest odcctools needs more patching then that document says
18:54<terinjokes>download one? then why bother using Gentoo?
18:54<TrueBrain>you can download a Gentoo VM
18:54<terinjokes>TrueBrain: i checkout revision 280 ;)
18:55<TrueBrain>well, I have to say it correctly: odcctools added some of my patches
18:55<TrueBrain>the latest cctools needs more patching
18:55<TrueBrain>and the last time I checked odcctools, they had most of them
18:56<TrueBrain>odcctools should be the easiest of them all
18:56<TrueBrain>don't bother with otools and friends
18:56<terinjokes>TrueBrain: my testing yesterday, thef had the bottom two
18:56<terinjokes>"delete otools unless you have an ObjC compiler, which I don't" (going from memory)
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19:00<TrueBrain>either way, if you have any specific questions, we might be able to help out
19:00<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/variety.png
19:00<TrueBrain>terinjokes: btw, for what project do you want a crosscompiler
19:01<@peter1138>^ flat bits and middle bits and high bits
19:01<terinjokes>^ flat bits and middle bits and high bits
19:01<@peter1138>:w
19:02<terinjokes>i'm building an application using WxWidgets, hopefully something that will get me away from my preporitory job ;)
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>could have been a tad bit more detailed ;)
19:02<TrueBrain>so it has nothing to do with OpenTTD ;)
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19:03<Eddi|zuHause>and couls use a few rivers :p
19:03<@peter1138>yeah i scaled it too far
19:03<@peter1138>but my pc took a minute to open the full size
19:04<terinjokes>TrueBrain: i'm not the best programmer, and I currently have no Mac, but maybe I can fix that heart on the homepage
19:04<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/variety2.png
19:04<TrueBrain>terinjokes: if you have no Mac, developing for it will be a road better left untaken
19:05<terinjokes>TrueBrain: I'm working on getting a MCP to replace my iBook that died
19:06<TrueBrain>either way, we are willing to help with any specific questions; we can't help you any more with the vagues ones you have been asking in the last 24 hours ;)
19:06<Terkhen>good night
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19:07<Yexo>nice map peter1138
19:07<Yexo>I assume that's generated by our modified version of tgp?
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19:07<Yexo>s/our/your/
19:07<@peter1138>yeah
19:08<@peter1138>i've added multiple curve maps
19:08<@peter1138>then interpolated based on map position
19:08<@peter1138>could be slow mind you :s
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19:10<@peter1138>much better result though
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: is that a "rough" map and if so, do smoother ones have less steep hills?
19:14<@peter1138>good point
19:14<@peter1138>it's rough
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>but finally a map where tunnels might be useful
19:14<@peter1138>i've not touched that control
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19:22<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still not entirely satisfied with the mountains tending to have plateaus instead of peaks...
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19:32<Eddi|zuHause>hm. why can't kate's syntax highlight differentiate between identifiers and other symbols?
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19:37<terinjokes>sigh, went to the store while waiting to the SDK to download, seems to have frozen...
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19:38<Eddi|zuHause>computers tend to do that exactly in the time they are unattended
19:39<terinjokes>Eddi|zuHause: not them computer, just the download
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>same difference
19:40<terinjokes>yep
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19:48<Eddi|zuHause>hm... how do i teach kate that everything ending in "_t" is a type?
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>or better: parse typedefs ;)
19:49<terinjokes>call her kate_t (say it out loud)
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>yay... after 250MB of download, installing tetex crashes...
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>xetex
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>terinjokes: i'm not entirely sure that when i say such a thing outloud i'll get the same effect that you are
19:55<terinjokes>kate_t == katie
19:55<terinjokes>Eddi|zuHause: I had a fun time getting TeX installed over the years
19:56*fjb simply types "make install"
19:56<terinjokes>fjb: i tried that way too... didn't like me too much...
19:57<fjb>It never failed for me.
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>terinjokes: i simply downloaded the rpm from the repository, and then i get double frees...
19:57<terinjokes>something about could not make directory. [ERROR 2]
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19:58<Eddi|zuHause>or rather: "free(): invalid pointer"
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20:17<terinjokes>as I wait for this SDK to download... is there an advantage to having an git/hg repo ontop of svn?
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20:24<Eddi|zuHause>only if you have a large amount of branches or external patch writers
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20:32<Eddi|zuHause>svn has the advantage of a globally linear revision number, while hg/git have the advantage of easy branching and local versioning
20:33<SpComb^>status so far: played for 2.5h, so far linked up 4+2 cities, 16 trains, 26 trams, year is 1924, largest town has a pop of 6.5k :(
20:33<Eddi|zuHause>so svn is useful for keeping track of the main development version, and hg/git for branches and user patches
20:34<SpComb^>this is with 4x daylength - towns are way too big, given that I've still only got the very basic dbset passenger coaches (30pax)
20:34<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: you might want to check out the passenger reduction patch
20:35<SpComb^>well, I'd also like to slow down physical town growth
20:35<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i might once have had a solution for that...
20:41<deghosty>let us in your game :D
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20:44<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: you can put something like "if (tick_counter%daylength_factor!=0) return;" into town_cmd.cpp:TownTickHandler
20:44<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: or modify t->growth_rate
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>but maybe that needs to be increased in size first, haven't checked
20:45<SpComb^>yeah, I've looked at the code a bit
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>it's initialised in DoCreateTown
20:46<SpComb^>one thing I tried was to multiply TOWN_GROWTH_FREQUENCY
20:46<Eddi|zuHause>"t->growth_rate = 250*daylength_factor;"
20:46<SpComb^>well, increase
20:46<Eddi|zuHause>and check data type
20:47<SpComb^>but that didn't actually work, didn't get around to figuring out why - killed town growth to zero
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>hm... t->growth_rate is also modified in UpdateTownGrowRate
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: the TownTickHandler-version should be safe
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20:48<SpComb^>yeah, changing the growth_rate is tricky, because it's pretty dynamic
20:49<SpComb^>TownTickHandler is only run every TOWN_GROWTH_FREQUENCY ticks by OnTick_Town
20:49<SpComb^>so that was the first thing I tried to change - effectively the same
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>ah, yes
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>i see
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see why that shouldn't work
20:51<SpComb^>for whatever reason, when I did that, all the towns stopped growing completely
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>how did you change it?
20:51<SpComb^>TOWN_GROWTH_FREQUENCY is somehow related to the size of the town array
20:51<SpComb^>effectively changed it to 70*daylength_factor
20:52<SpComb^>and changed it to a #define instead of a static const byte
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>might want to try changing the data type, too.
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>err... make sure you add () then
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20:53<SpComb^>yeah, it was actually #defined to ScaleFromOriginalDate(70), which was `template<typename T> static inline T ScaleFromOriginalDate (T value) { return value * _date_daylength_factor; }`
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20:54<Eddi|zuHause>and it's only used once, so might put that directly in the if (tick_counter % ScaleDate(TOWN_BLAH))
20:54<SpComb^>well, it's referenced in a comment :P
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, don't change the constant, but add the Scale to the use of the constant
20:55<SpComb^>I'd have to debug it and see what the issue was, but when I left the game running for 100y, the towns didn't grow at all
20:56<Eddi|zuHause>with servicing the city?
20:57<SpComb^>yes
20:57<SpComb^>I built a short train between two cities, then loaded that savegame in two openttd's - one running at daylength=1, one running at daylength=2
20:57<SpComb^>1 growed, 2 didn't
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see why it should be wrong...
21:07<SpComb^>nor did I, it seems like the right approach, I'll give it another go sometime soon, I think I got tied up in the intricacies of git at that point
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21:25<terinjokes>my internet just hates me tonight... now it seems the package mirror is offline
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21:43<Mickster04>hey how do i get the digger tool to show, i mean its there but greyed out?
21:44<Mickster04>nm
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22:12<terinjokes>TrueBrain: is there a reason to prefer MacOSK10.4.Universal over MacOSX10.5?
22:16<Eddi|zuHause>might have had something to do with getting things to run on 10.3, just a guess
22:18<terinjokes>i noticed Rubidium's instructions used both... might do the same
22:18<Eddi|zuHause>and you might want to focus your question sessions on european time ;)
22:18<terinjokes>just read the file
22:18<terinjokes>"For most targets, you want to extract the 10.4u SDK. This allows your binary to run from 10.3 to 10.5.
22:18<terinjokes>Eddi|zuHause: i realized this morning ;)
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22:42<terinjokes>sigh.... make failed at the same spot as last night.... http://pastebin.ca/1719071
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---Logclosed Fri Dec 18 00:00:09 2009