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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-12-28

---Logopened Mon Dec 28 00:00:04 2009
---Daychanged Mon Dec 28 2009
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00:05<PeterT>I'm off
00:05<PeterT>night
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00:34<teshiron>I like the new ability to sort stations by lowest cargo rating (in 1.0.0), but the ascending/descending behavior seems backwards to me.
00:34<ajmiles>backwards how?
00:37<De_Ghosty>http://yfrog.com/0atestaqj
00:38<De_Ghosty>the ai just out build you
00:38<De_Ghosty>and mess up ur play with tracks everywhere
00:39<ajmiles>i guess that's a problem
00:40<ajmiles>less so on a larger map though
00:40<ajmiles>on 2048x2048 you could somehow agree to use 1024x2048 each :)
00:41<De_Ghosty>nah
00:41<De_Ghosty>i haven't seen the train ai in action
00:44<teshiron>backwards in the sense that when you sort descendingly on "lowest cargo rating", the top of the list is the lowest and the ratings *increase* as you go down the list
00:44<teshiron>when I choose "descending" for a sort, I naturally expect the numerical values involved to, well, descend. :)
00:45<ajmiles>it is right how it is
00:45<teshiron>how so?
00:45<ajmiles>when you sort descendingly, you want the most lowest cargo rating at the top :)
00:46<ajmiles>if you were sorting by maximum speed descendingly then yes, the numbers would get smaller as you go down. but lower numbers in this case are "better", so should be at the top
00:46<teshiron>see, I expected it to behave the same, numerically, as the old "cargo rating" sort, but instead sort on the lowest rating at the station instead of the highest
00:47<teshiron>I did not expect the sort itself to be reversed
00:47<teshiron>and I wouldn't be surprised if it confuses others if it actually gets released that way
00:47<ajmiles>well, the old one is the same was "highest cargo rating" is now
00:47<teshiron>right.
00:47<ajmiles>so it makes sense that lowest cargo rating should be sorted oppositely
00:47<teshiron>no, not at all
00:48<sparr>it never makes sense for 1 2 3 4 5 to be "descending"
00:48<teshiron>*exactly*
00:48<ajmiles>it does is the sort category is "lowest numbers first"
00:48<ajmiles>*if the
00:48<teshiron>but that's just it
00:49<teshiron>I don't necessarily want the lowest numbers first... I just want it to pick from the lowest rating of the multiple cargoes at my station
00:49<teshiron>and whether I choose to sort ascending or descending, the numbers involved should make sense
00:49<teshiron>rather, the order of the numbers
00:49*teshiron shrugs
00:49<ajmiles>when a station has multiple cargoes what is the 'value' for a given station?
00:50<ajmiles>'any' ?
00:50<ajmiles>ie, when sorting by highest cargo rating it picks the highest and when sorting by lowest it picks the lowest?
00:50<teshiron>that's correct
00:50<teshiron>formerly, it was always the highest
00:50<ajmiles>but then how would you ever find a low cargo rating on a station?
00:50<teshiron>you wouldn't
00:50<teshiron>that's why they implemented the new sort :D
00:51<ajmiles>i think at the end of the day it's probably just preference, and to get it the way you want it's only one extra mouse click to invert the list. is that the only problem with it?
00:51<teshiron>I'm not talking about the effort involved to flip the list
00:52<teshiron>I'm talking about the confusion incurred
00:52<teshiron>it took me a good three or four flips of the list around before I figured exactly what it was doing, and I expect others would be similarly confused, especially if they're used to using the old sort
00:52<teshiron>and I don't consider myself particularly slow on the uptake. :)
00:53<teshiron>but you're right, I can make the list do what I want, and the direction of the arrow is not of earth-shaking importance.
00:53<ajmiles>i'm only used to the new one (not because i haven't played openttd before, but because i never used the old one), and it does exactly what I'd expect it to.
00:53<ajmiles>lets me find the lowest and highest cargo ratings of given stations, i guess I'm saying I don't quite understand the problem :)
00:54<ajmiles>but then it won't be up to me to fix it, so it doesn't matter too much
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00:56<teshiron>yeah, I didn't think I was explaining myself clearly :)
00:56<teshiron>I meant, from the perspective of user interface design, one wants one's interface to be self-consistent
00:57<teshiron>ascending sorts mean that numbers should go up, and descending sorts mean numbers should go down
00:57<teshiron>regardless of what value one is sorting by.
00:57<ajmiles>mmm I think that's where I disagree
00:57<ajmiles>what if the sort category was (theoretically) "Breakdowns per year"? descending should have the best at the top
00:57<ajmiles>ie "0"
00:58<ajmiles>i know we're talking about vehicles rather than stations, but I'm talking UI generally
00:58<ajmiles>whereas "Reliability" descending would have "100%" at the top and "0%" at the bottom
00:59<teshiron>but breakdowns per year doesn't imply, by title, whether that's "I want good vehicles" or "I want bad vehicles"
00:59<teshiron>if the interface always sorts strictly numerically, then a user has much more of a chance to intuit the correct sort on the first try
01:00<ajmiles>if the user had that station dialog set to "Descending / Highest Cargo Rating" you'd expect the highest at the top of the list right?
01:01<teshiron>only because I expect descending sorts to always have the highest number at the top of the list, out of whatever is being measured
01:01<teshiron>not because of the name of the sort
01:01<ajmiles>what I think would be strange is for the user to then change the category to "Lowest Cargo Rating" and in effect the list would barely change order
01:01<ajmiles>(assuming one cargo type per station)
01:01<teshiron>now, you do raise an interesting point there.
01:02<teshiron>however, there's no point for having the two different sorts if there's only one cargo per station -- that's what the ascend/descend is for :)
01:02<teshiron>I think this one really is just a difference of opinion after all...
01:03<ajmiles>also, without loading up the game to check, it doesn't actually show numbers on the list does it?
01:03<teshiron>not directly in the list, not actual numbers
01:03<ajmiles>it's just a list of station names iirc
01:03<teshiron>the bars under the icons for the waiting cargos are colored green/red to approximate the rating
01:03<teshiron>but not actual numbers
01:03<teshiron>(and the bar is like 1px big)
01:04<ajmiles>yeah, it's a bit hard to see, and in fact i've never taken the time to work out what it meant :)
01:04<teshiron>yes, it's the rating for that particular cargo :)
01:05<ajmiles>what might be useful is if when sorting by highest/lowest cargo rating it actually had the %age and name of cargo written explicitly
01:05<ajmiles>just the one cargo type by which it go its position in that list
01:05<ajmiles>*got
01:07<teshiron>for most regular games, that would be great... it would worry me a bit at some kind of megastation with 6 or 7 different cargoes waiting, that it would be harder to see everything at a glance
01:07<teshiron>but in the vast majority of my games, I don't get anywhere near that many at any one station
01:08<ajmiles>well that was my point, it would only be for the highest/lowest cargo rating sort categories, it would pick just the one cargo type for that station (either highest or lowest) and put it next to the station name
01:08<ajmiles>if you were sorting by... total cargo value it wouldn't display any explicitly
01:08<ajmiles>or name
01:09<ajmiles>the total cargo value one is a bit of a mystery to me too, by what measure does it have value before it's transported anywhere?
01:10<ajmiles>it could use the cargo payment graph and just do a lookup for 10 days 10 squares transported, but different cargoes have different falloffs depending on distance/time
01:10<teshiron>yeah, I think it probably uses the early delivery rate (the start of the graph)
01:11<ajmiles>it could try and be smarter and try and work out how much a given unit of cargo from the industry that supplied it makes the player on average (until that point)
01:12<ajmiles>1000 tons of coal at one station transported 10 squares in effect has lower value than 100 tons at a station where i'll transport it 2000 squares. but perhaps that's a different category altogether
01:12<teshiron>mm, that would require it to store that data somewhere
01:13*ajmiles has some spare RAM :)
01:13<teshiron>and I don't know as it does that... though perhaps it could do a quick calculation based on average profit of the vehicles at that station carrying that cargo type
01:13<teshiron>since any particular originating station might have the same cargo dropped off at an infinite number of destinations, I think calculating actual values would fail badly.
01:14<teshiron>(infinite limited by the maximum number of stations, etc, but you get my point)
01:14<ajmiles>yup
01:16<ajmiles>i'm surprised there aren't more graphs/tables of information in openttd, a given game must be a gold mine (forgive the pun) of information
01:17<ajmiles>but I guess if a lot of it is never stored it might be a bit tricky
01:18<ajmiles>i've often wanted to see a breakdown of profit by cargo type
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03:10<Terkhen>good morning
03:11<Forked>morning :)
03:13<sparr>somewhere
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05:24<edeca>Morning indeed
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05:32<edeca>Heh, is this a newgrf bug if this is displayed in an aircraft's information: "150 crates of goodsAllow building very long bridges: undefined string"
05:33<@Rubidium>possibly
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05:37<planetmaker>very easy to achieve that error :-) A typo in the newgrf code is sufficient
05:41<edeca>I've never seen it before, it made me chuckle
05:42<planetmaker>which newgrf is it WAS alpha?
05:42<edeca>It's the aircraft replacement set, but I forget which one
05:43<edeca>av8
05:43<planetmaker>you could then do them a favour and file a bug report at http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/worldairlineset
05:43<planetmaker>oh, hm. Dunno about that :-)
05:43<planetmaker>it's pikka's newgrf, is it?
05:44<edeca>Yep yep
05:44<edeca>I've never seen the world airline set, thanks!
05:44<edeca>Is it possible to show the shortcut keys for commands on the right click menu?
05:44<edeca>I mean, when you right click on a button
05:50<planetmaker>it is possible. Just make a better translation to include it.
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05:54<edeca>Ah, it's in the translation. Would it be an improvement that would be wanted though?
06:02<planetmaker>well. If it's English it's obviously not a translation. But... well. Depends upon newgrf author whether it's wante
06:02<planetmaker>d
06:03<edeca>I meant for the game, not a newgrf
06:04<planetmaker>well. If the string is newgrf specific, it should supply the translation itself.
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06:12<andythenorth>woah there spartacus
06:13*andythenorth needs to bravely enter the world of industry tiles
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06:18<mib_1ymjuo>hiho, i have a question: how to i finish my openttd game (single mode)
06:18<mib_1ymjuo>?
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06:20<KingJ>When you reach 2050, but you can contine after that
06:21<mib_1ymjuo>thank you, i finished 2050 but nothing happend
06:22<mib_1ymjuo>thank you1
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06:27<Terkhen>good luck andythenorth
06:28<andythenorth>trying to figure out how to code a fishing harbour (industry) that transcends the coastline
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06:51<andythenorth>hmmm.....wiki hunting
06:51<andythenorth>oil refineries must be built within n tiles of the coast. I was hoping that behaviour was exposed in nfo
06:51<andythenorth>but I can't find a property for it
06:52<andythenorth>I can use the industry construction callback, but I was hoping for a short cut :)
06:53<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Industries
06:54<Ammler>andythenorth: doesn't that apply to the default refinery only?
06:54<andythenorth>possibly
06:54<andythenorth>maybe I'll just write the construction callback code
06:54<Ammler>iirc, ECS does place those on the whole map
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06:57<planetmaker>I guess it's possible to write a newgrf also in the form of
06:57<planetmaker>-1 * 0 00 0B \b01 01 ID 0F \b1 // changing one property of one cargo: weight of one unit
06:57<planetmaker>-1 * 0 00 0B \b01 01 ID 10 \b0 // changing one property of one cargo: penalty times
06:57<planetmaker>for with ID being the same in two lines. And both lines modify the cargo so that it has both changes in the end, right?
06:58<planetmaker>^ andythenorth ?
06:59<andythenorth>yes
06:59<andythenorth>commonly we wrap that in an action 7
06:59<andythenorth>(to modify properties conditionally)
07:01<planetmaker>well, yes, maybe :-) I still don't want to discared action6 :-)
07:02<andythenorth>:)
07:02<andythenorth>Action 6 looks like it will involve a lot hex maths
07:02<andythenorth>but maybe I'm misreading the wiki
07:02<planetmaker>yes... maybe. But I *think* that we could just write previously our own non-public grfparameter and use that.
07:03<planetmaker>and then we can re-use that parameter. But not sure that makes sense
07:03<andythenorth>it makes sense
07:03<andythenorth>I don't know if it's possible (or easiest)
07:03<planetmaker>that I don't know either.
07:03<andythenorth>Action 7 route is brutal and simple :D
07:04<planetmaker>indeed
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07:04<planetmaker>action7 works in any case, I think
07:04<andythenorth>I'll paste something
07:06<andythenorth>http://paste.openttd.org/220772
07:07<andythenorth>planetmaker: ^^ I think the templating would be quite minimal on that route.
07:07<andythenorth>templating almost not needed, except it would help prevent typos etc
07:09<planetmaker>well... currently the template are per cargo. and not per cargo property. That's quite a big change.
07:10<planetmaker>I propose to rather put the action7 sequence in a template itself and call that from the cargo template.
07:10<andythenorth>yes that would make sense
07:10<planetmaker>even on the cost that the action7 sequence is included (industry number) times into the NFO. But we have to take care of it only once
07:10<andythenorth>I think it makes more action 7s?
07:10<andythenorth>but that isn't a problem with templating
07:10<planetmaker>exactly
07:11<planetmaker>but it's not nice. But it works for now and doesn't hurt
07:11<planetmaker>just makes the grf a bit bigger.
07:11<andythenorth>how to structure storing the variables?
07:11<planetmaker>you don't have to store any var, if you go for the action7 approach...
07:12<planetmaker>just always check the grf param and include the proper action0 with the property/ies you query
07:12<planetmaker>or?
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07:12<planetmaker>let me paste something :-)
07:12<andythenorth>cool
07:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r18651 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_order.hpp: -Fix [FS#3438](r18518): [NoAI] When AI tried to create NO_UNLOAD order, GOTO_NEAREST_DEPOT order was created instead
07:13<Ammler>well, you should also take care of performance, i.e. ECS uses a lot more CPU
07:13<planetmaker>that's a one-time only thing.
07:14<andythenorth>Ammler: what he said
07:14<Ammler>ok :-)
07:14<andythenorth>Although I am working on something else that will have performance concerns
07:14<andythenorth>I will need help with that! (later)
07:16<andythenorth>@seen frosch123
07:16<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 14 hours, 47 minutes, and 1 second ago: <frosch123> wito, george: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2420 <- looks intentional
07:16<andythenorth>:|
07:16<andythenorth>I need to know how expensive cb 28 is
07:16<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks#Industry_location_permissibility_28_
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07:17<carstep>Hi
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07:17<carstep>does anybody got the message that AI is unable to load?
07:17<carstep>1.0.0 beta
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07:19<carstep>is everybody away?
07:19<SmatZ>no
07:19<carstep>ok
07:20<carstep>I'm very new to this, I used the 0.5 one whithout any problems
07:20<andythenorth>I get AI debug message in 0.7.4 at the start of the game
07:20<carstep>checked out that the openttd group has been doing a great job
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07:21<SmatZ>carstep: does the "AI Debug" window open?
07:21<SmatZ>...
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07:24<dragonhorseboy>hey
07:27<planetmaker>andythenorth: http://paste.openttd.org/220773 <-- my idea how to solve it. Using action7s
07:28<planetmaker>andythenorth: I guess it's alright. Industries are not built every tick
07:28<planetmaker>(concerning CB 28)
07:29<planetmaker>I just have a request: don't make it restrictive. That sucks majorly
07:29<planetmaker>Especially (within given distance of town of size...). I hate that :-)
07:29<planetmaker>It's a pain if you have bigger towns, thus basically fails there.
07:30<andythenorth>planetmaker: I'll look at that paste, thanks
07:30<andythenorth>in respect of restrictions
07:30<andythenorth>most will be very unrestricted
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07:30<andythenorth>I don't like 'cannot be built near similar industry' etc
07:30<planetmaker>yes, also that is a pain.
07:31<andythenorth>actually, this morning I added to my todo list changing the Bakery and Brewery to be less restrictive
07:31<dragonhorseboy>andy well I kinda think its a double edge sword
07:31<planetmaker>I think the only thing needed is like "harbour at shore" or "bank within town".
07:31<dragonhorseboy>you wouldn't want to build a coal mine only 4 tiles far from a powerplant?
07:31<planetmaker>and similar easy cases
07:31<andythenorth>dragonhorseboy: I don't mind that
07:31<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy: of course. why not?
07:31<andythenorth>just run a bulldozer :D
07:32<planetmaker>it's even realistic
07:32<dragonhorseboy>planetmaker if the powerplant is right next to the coal mine why does it even need your business? :)
07:32<andythenorth>well yes, there is that
07:32<planetmaker>you provide the cars / transport. Even 100m may be important.
07:32<andythenorth>and then there is the overlapping station problem
07:32<andythenorth>which means you can full load both ways
07:32<andythenorth>kind of a cheat
07:32<planetmaker>and if you don't like it, dragonhorseboy, don't ship that 2 tiles distance
07:33*dragonhorseboy would rather do at least 12+ tiles even for horses
07:33<planetmaker>and it wouldn't pay anyway
07:33<dragonhorseboy>andythenorth...lol that one :)
07:33<andythenorth>dragonhorseboy: I see your point
07:33<andythenorth>but coding to prevent it is a headache
07:33<dragonhorseboy>andythenorth there is one thing I rather hate tho
07:34<andythenorth>yes?
07:34<dragonhorseboy>steel mill in pikka's and certain chemical industries in ecs-chemical-vector ... these thing are so effing difficult to keep balanced without messing up your network's traffic
07:34<andythenorth>FIRS won't have balancing
07:34<roboboy>yeah
07:34<dragonhorseboy>I prefer not to have to worry how much of A I need compared to B just to be able to get C output
07:35<andythenorth>I've thought about it for Steel Mill and Cement Plant
07:35<dragonhorseboy>andythenorth...hmm nice
07:35<andythenorth>Balancing would be more realistic, but it's a headache
07:35<andythenorth>OzTrans has it right with industries in CanSet 3
07:35<dragonhorseboy>andythenorth I always find coal to be a lot more plenty than ore for starters
07:36<andythenorth>CanSet 3 metal plant has an (unrealistic) 'reserve' of coal, which makes for better gameplay
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07:36<andythenorth>I'll figure something similar out for FIRS
07:36<dragonhorseboy>and the chemical vectors .. well .. lets say you need to do raw1>raw2 then raw2>raw3 then raw4+raw3=output ... I never could ever get it to work nicely at all
07:36<dragonhorseboy>at least ecs thankfully is made that you can only use the vectors you want to so I've always left the chemical one out
07:37<dragonhorseboy>never used machinery too .. seem a bit odd to me
07:38<dragonhorseboy>andythenorth .. one of the silly thing with pikka's coal reserve .. is the coal mine almost always goes down to <80 tonnes output (even if it used to be 640 tonnes etc) and stay there all the times even if less than 20% of the reserve had been used up
07:38<dragonhorseboy>it was a bit of a headache in jonty's IS2 game .. I had to pull up most of my rails four times before I finally decided to stop bother doing coal business anymore because it was seeming too 'unstable'
07:38<andythenorth>dragonhorseboy: have you tried FIRS?
07:39<dragonhorseboy>andythenorth .. no .. was about to go check it out in a sec heh
07:39<andythenorth>it's work in progress, but a lot of it is playable
07:39<andythenorth>some industries aren't coded, and there are some weird production values
07:39<planetmaker>andythenorth: you really going to make primary industries limited? :-(
07:39<andythenorth>planetmaker: no
07:40<andythenorth>never
07:40<planetmaker>I hate to constantly re-build my network... good :-) *relieved*
07:40<andythenorth>but remember we are planning to close industry types on mass with different 'eras'
07:41<planetmaker>well... my idea back then was basically rather an upgrade.
07:42<dragonhorseboy>I think I'll stick to default industries (its set to 'very low' anyway) for now .. but I'll see about FIRS another time ok? ;)
07:42<planetmaker>hm... what about building it (preferentially) adjacent to the old type... and close the old one, if new type is adjacent (for certain definitions of 'adjacent')
07:42<andythenorth>the ones that would close include: blacksmith, windmill (grain mill), and guano mine
07:42<andythenorth>most won't close
07:43<dragonhorseboy>nice to have a milk cargo source .. hopefully nars/canset would soon provide the 50's milk wagons to transport these perhaps (well they looked like half height boxcars)
07:44<andythenorth>dragonhorseboy: seen the FIRS site? http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/schema/industries
07:45<dragonhorseboy>yeah already there
07:46<andythenorth>list of what's coded: http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/schema/industries_coders
07:46<andythenorth>or a better one here: http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/schema/code_status_hotlist
07:47<andythenorth>most of what isn't coded isn't essential
07:47<andythenorth>try it in a week maybe...I'll have finished some more things by then :D
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08:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18652 /trunk/src/ (company_gui.cpp misc_gui.cpp): -Fix: glitches due to having the wrong bounding boxes for the face widgets
08:05<@peter1138>andythenorth, "en masse" ;)
08:05<andythenorth>brain = fail :O
08:05<andythenorth>also: pedant award :D
08:05<@peter1138>:D
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08:16<andythenorth>I need to build an industry that transcends the coast
08:16<andythenorth>using cb 28
08:16<andythenorth>which is going to be more optimal
08:16<andythenorth>building on water and checking for coast tiles
08:16<andythenorth>or building on land and checking for water tiles
08:16<andythenorth>:D
08:16<andythenorth>?
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09:32<Sacro>http://www.openttd.org/en/download-testing
09:32<Sacro>can I provide a gramatically correct bit?
09:32<Sacro>there's a fair few grammer/spelling issues
09:34<@Rubidium>yes, preferably as a diff to svn://svn.openttd.org/extra/website :)
09:34<Elessar>Hello.
09:35<Elessar>I saw that OpenSFX is distributed under CC Sampling Plus.
09:36<Sacro>Rubidium: perhaps i shall
09:36<Elessar>That licence will be source of problems for it distribution by free distro, as it forbids somes derivative works.
09:36<Elessar>Is that wanted?
09:36<planetmaker>You're free to provide sounds released under the GPL license, Elessar
09:37<planetmaker>And make a sound set which is then under GPL
09:37<Elessar>I know I am, I am just not an artist, I was just asking about OpenSFX.
09:37<@Rubidium>Elessar: no, but *all* but one samples are coming from a repository that provides them under CC Sampling Plus, the other is under public domain
09:38<Elessar>Okay, that is the explaination, then. I understand.
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09:38<@Rubidium>anyhow, if distributions are really picky they can always distribute "NoSound" and let people download OpenSFX from within the game if they want to have actual sounds
09:39<Elessar>Yes, that is what shall be done, I guess.
09:39<Elessar>Maybe it would be worth mentionning the fact that the licence is inherited from somewhere else?
09:40<Sacro>mmm
09:40<Sacro>might have to write some packages for ArchLinux
09:40<Sacro>perhaps openttd-opengfx and openttd-opensfx
09:41*peter1138 ponders restarting his server
09:41<@peter1138>2057 :s
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10:05<PeterT>anyone know what hs.dat is for?
10:05<Ammler>don't most distros have a special "non-free" repo?
10:06<@peter1138>highscores
10:07<Ammler>hmm, CC Sampling Plus doesn't allow derivate work?
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10:13<PeterT>Thanks peter1138
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10:16<SpComb^>yay, got a friend first-time-addicted to OpenTTD once I mentioned the free graphics
10:16<Luukland>:S
10:17<PeterT>Lol
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10:23<Zuu>It was suggested (i think it was Ammler) in another irc channel that OpenSFX really should be renamed to FreeSFX because of the current license.
10:24<Luukland>lol @ PeterT at your comment on the banned on the ttforum :P
10:25<PeterT>Hmm?
10:25<PeterT>post?
10:25<Luukland>Yeah, regarding the question; What version are u running :P
10:25<PeterT>Wait, are you laughing at me, or with me?
10:26<Luukland>with you :)
10:26<PeterT>ahh
10:26<PeterT>sarcasm machine is borked
10:26<PeterT>why was he banned, anyway?
10:31<@peter1138>why not?
10:32<PeterT>For fun?
10:32<Luukland>I dont know, we have been running the server for 2 weeks now
10:32<Muxy>for life
10:32<Luukland>and already 60 banned ppl or so
10:33<Luukland>some servers use 3 strike = out, we use 1 strike = out
10:35<Luukland>Most of them probably get banned for "massive terraforming"
10:35<SpComb^>define
10:35<PeterT>oh, my trains need to go through montains
10:36<PeterT>that kind
10:36<Luukland>well, a bit more severe
10:36<SpComb^>just drag and drop your track in a straight line over whatever happens to be in the way, I'm sure the trains won't mind going up and down fifty times
10:37<Luukland>like "I want to flatten the map, and write my name in it and then leave"
10:37<Luukland>That kind of terraforming
10:37<Luukland>Or just the usual: "I like water everywhere"
10:42<Luukland>but luckely this kind of abuse is getting less every day since the introduction of the campaign, which means I have some spare time again :)
10:43<PeterT>You said you had "documentation on how to get off the ban"
10:43<PeterT>where can I find this?
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10:43<PeterT>Luukland: There is a typo on this page: http://luukland.goulp.net/rules
10:43*SpComb^ is happy playing alone, or private co-op
10:44<PeterT>"Still if you might freel unjustifiedly"
10:44<PeterT>"Still if you might freel unjustifiedly"
10:46<Luukland>Ah
10:46<Luukland>thx
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10:47<PeterT>and what kind of rule is "no one-way trains"?
10:48<PeterT>wth does that even mean xD
10:48<Luukland>Ah, for that I must refer you to the page of the competition, gimme 10 secs
10:49<PeterT>Aparrently restrictions to building != competition
10:49<PeterT>It's been 10 seconds...
10:50<@peter1138># Maximum of 1 company per primary industry (coal, ore, oil, etc.)
10:50<@peter1138>^ pathetic rule
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10:50<PeterT>That one removes most competition
10:51<Luukland>PeterT, can't find it but it is quite simple: You buy train, let it make cash, sell it at the end, and build a new train at the start, thus saving journey time
10:52<PeterT>why not? let them do what they want
10:52<PeterT>i'm sure most of us have enough of a life not to do that
10:52<Luukland>Indeed most of you, some ppl go mad when it is about exp
10:54<Luukland>peter1138, might I ask your opinion about the current cargo algorithm regarding 2 competing stations?
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11:01<@peter1138>...
11:02<Luukland>is that your final answer ^^
11:03<andythenorth>peter1138: how about this one: I want to deliver FIRS engineering supplies to a station that has two overlapping industries and have it split the load between them
11:03<andythenorth>(substitute cargo x for engineering supplies)
11:03<@Rubidium>Zuu: but OpenSFX is less free than OpenGFX in the sense of "free as in speech"
11:03<andythenorth>right now I have to faff about with a lot trucks and feeder services
11:04*andythenorth remembers...trucks are good
11:04<andythenorth>but 'last mile' feeders that lose money are not
11:04<Zuu>Rubidium: That is true, perhaps FreeAsInBeerSFX then :-p
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11:06<Coco-Banana-Man>[17:03:29] <andythenorth> peter1138: how about this one: I want to deliver FIRS engineering supplies to a station that has two overlapping industries and have it split the load between them <--- btw: Does CargoDist do something like that? Or does it only choose a specific station?
11:07<andythenorth>cargodist is stations only isn't it? I haven't tried it but I follow the thread...
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11:10<Zuu>andythenorth: What would it be more than stations?
11:11<andythenorth>specific tiles
11:11<andythenorth>which as far as I know would be insane
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11:12<Zuu>Can't give a 100 sure answer on that, since I have neither followed that project close enought.
11:21<@peter1138>simutrans manages that
11:21<@peter1138>tile to tile would be pretty neat
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11:26<PeterT>Luukland advertises his servers as if nobody has heard of servers.openttd.org
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11:31<Ammler>Zuu: / Rubidium, isn't open more free? ;-)
11:32<PeterT>Why can't we just agree on a simple license?
11:32<PeterT>GPL v3?
11:32<PeterT>(I only mention that one because it's the only one I know of :-))
11:32<Ammler>and already not compatible with openttd :-P
11:33<PeterT>Ammler: What do you prefer as a license?
11:33<@peter1138>license for what?
11:33<Ammler>no colors
11:34<Kovensky>ISC
11:34<PeterT>peter1138: the music replacment project
11:34<Ammler>I wrote it there...
11:34<PeterT>I don't have time to read all that license stuff
11:34<PeterT>It doesn't even interest me
11:34<Ammler>then don't ask...
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11:35<@peter1138>quite
11:35<Kovensky>WTFPL
11:35<Kovensky>text of the ISC: "Permission to use, copy, modify, and/or distribute this software for any purpose with or without fee is hereby granted, provided that the above copyright notice and this permission notice appear in all copies."
11:36<PeterT>with or without?
11:37<Kovensky>basically, just do wtf you want with it as long as you tell everyone they also can do wtf they want with it AND keep the copyright notice
11:37<@peter1138>wtf wtf wtf
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11:42<muszek>hi... quick question: how fast does the time pass (in a regular mode) in openttd? I.E. how many minutes of real time is one year in game?
11:44<Ammler>~14
11:44<@peter1138>13.5
11:46<muszek>thanks
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12:06<teshi|work>(unless you've got so much going on in the game that your processor bogs down, but that's neither here nor there because you can't get any extra work done during those delays)
12:08<sparr>13.5 is such a strange number
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12:11<Ammler>one tic - 30ms, 74tics = 1day
12:11<Ammler>he, not sure...
12:11<PeterT>@calc 74*30
12:11<@DorpsGek>PeterT: 2220
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12:12<PeterT>@calc 2220/60
12:12<@DorpsGek>PeterT: 37
12:12<SpComb^>2220ms/day
12:12<PeterT>@calc 2220/24
12:12<@DorpsGek>PeterT: 92.5
12:13<Ammler>@calc 0.03*74*365/60
12:13<@DorpsGek>Ammler: 13.505
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13:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18653 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3442]: when trying to attach a wagon to an existing free wagon chain, don't attach it to itself
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13:39<andythenorth>midi files are pretty much their own source, no?
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r18654 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 27 changes by motorolavn, nglekhoi
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13:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: not neecessarily. if you use a sheet music program like capella, then that is the source
13:50-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
13:51<andythenorth>interesting point
13:51<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but is it the prefered format for modifications?
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>per interpretation of the GPL, the source is whatever you make manual changes to
13:52<@Rubidium>don't forget the "machine readable" part
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>capella has its own storage format, that includes more than simple midi
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>it can import and export midi, though.
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>that makes it comparable to hand-crafted commented NFO or autogenerated grfcodec-NFO
13:58<blathijs>PeterT: You mentioned something about a music replacement project, what was that about?
13:58<andythenorth>well I am mostly staying out of the music licensing question....but I don't see why it can't be GPL
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>gpl for midi music is less problematic than for graphics
14:00<blathijs>Unless you really want to keep your stuff from becoming closed, something MIT-ish or BSD-ish could be easier.
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14:01<@Rubidium>blathijs: problem with 'sound' people is that they generally don't want their stuff to end up in commercial stuff
14:02<@Rubidium>so I fear the freeer the license the smaller the chance they want to 'donate'
14:02<sparr>is there any way to prevent another player from claiming land immediately after you terraform it?
14:02<@Rubidium>sparr: single player without AI
14:03<MyCatSchemes>Doesn't planting signposts on it work?
14:03<MyCatSchemes>The, uh, purchase land feature.
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: buy the land before terraforming
14:04<sparr>s/land/water/
14:04<MyCatSchemes>Oh. Yes, you have a problem.
14:04<sparr>is there any way to prevent another player from claiming land immediately after you create it from water via terraforming?
14:04<MyCatSchemes>Use the keyboard shortcut, purchase immediately. :)
14:04<andythenorth>when it comes to licensing work done for fun, some people measure loss in a strange way
14:05<sparr>MyCatSchemes: am I mistaken or can you only purchase one tile at a time?
14:05<sparr>andythenorth: almost all my photos online are licensed CC-BY-SA and CC-BY-NC
14:06<sparr>MyCatSchemes: seems like they could just claim one tile and you'd be screwed
14:06<sparr>long before you could claim many tiles
14:06<sparr>unless you are proposing TF-claim-TF-claim-TF-claim, which is ridiculous
14:06<MyCatSchemes>Can't you click-and-drag the purchase tool?
14:07<@Rubidium>sparr: if that's the way they want to compete, you just shouldn't play on that server (if the admin doesn't want to do something about it)
14:07<MyCatSchemes>I didn't say it was a good solution. But flicking between 'q' and whichever key it is for purchase land will come close to working.
14:11<worldemar>hi there...
14:11<worldemar>i am testing openttd-1.0.0 beta1
14:12<worldemar>is there a fast way to increase font size?
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14:13<worldemar>as i can see, fonts for russian and japanese are significantly larger than english, but i want to use english interface...
14:13<@Rubidium>change the font and font size in openttd.cfg
14:14<worldemar>Rubidium: thanks alot
14:14<worldemar>(how i didn't looked there?!)
14:21<ajmiles>what text do those options affect? the entire game?
14:21<ajmiles>i can't see any difference when I make the numbers in the cfg larger
14:22<Alberth>all texts
14:22<@Rubidium>ajmiles: all text, but *only* when a different font than the default font is used
14:22<ajmiles>ah
14:23<ajmiles>yup, specifying a font makes it work, thanks
14:24<worldemar>niiice
14:24<worldemar>now we are ready for new year party haha
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14:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18655 /trunk/media/ (openttd.256.png openttd.svg):
14:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: the icon that is supposed to be 256x256 pixels wasn't 256x256 pixels
14:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Add: the 'source' for the icons
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15:53<Vitas>hi people I need some advice please
15:53<Vitas>how do I get the ip address of a server I am on?
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15:54<Luukland>in the join screen it is always visible
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16:02<andythenorth>I am being beaten up by nfo again....trying to code an action 7 checking the value of a parameter
16:02<Vitas>it is pointless if it is in the join screen when I am joined already ;-)
16:02<Vitas>command status does not work in console
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16:10<andythenorth>peter1138: (sorry to bother) can you help with a bad action 7? http://paste.openttd.org/220784
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16:16<jvlomax>calling out for music composers! if anyone wants to help compose music for OTTD, check out http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=46479
16:16<jvlomax>we need YOU!
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16:23<Noldo>hmm, composing
16:26<sparr>is there a way to "outbid" another player on buying land?
16:26<sparr>or any other mechanic for getting around aggressive land purchase?
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16:30<sparr>I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that public multiplayer is a waste of time. There are so many ways that one player can screw with another
16:30<ashb>yeah
16:33<Noldo>it only works if there is active administrating
16:35<sparr>Noldo: which 20 years of online multiplayer games should show is a bad idea.
16:36<sparr>costs me $100M to get around one griefer's $100k land purchase
16:38*sparr sits idly until the next coop game starts
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16:44<Dreamxtreme>hmm
16:44<Dreamxtreme>anyone fancy a coop of England and wales SCN ??
16:45<sparr>Dreamxtreme: I haven't done coop other than #openttdcoop, really big networks... what is the typical goal in a small coop?
16:46<Dreamxtreme>idk lol
16:46<Dreamxtreme>i just fancy a MP game
16:46*Dreamxtreme is proper bored
16:46*peter1138 grumbles at mass-terraformers
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16:47*andythenorth grumbles at nfo...time to stop I guess
16:47<sparr>peter1138: what game are you seeing mass tf in?
16:57<@peter1138>nah, it's not really
16:58<@peter1138>i just like hills to stay as they were ;p
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17:05<sparr>i just flattened about 10% of the map on the maxttd(?) server
17:05<sparr>well, a bit ago now
17:05<sparr>had to, to get around someone who was blocking my building with land purchases
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17:06<nicfer1>hi
17:08<nicfer1>one question, how can I configure a second instalation of openttd in my home folder to read the data files from another location than the data\ folder?
17:08<Neon>Can anyone help me opening a dedicated server on debian lenny 32 bit?
17:09<Neon>Beginning with what do I have to download? :/
17:09<Neon>Just OpenTTD?
17:09<Neon>Or is there a special dedicated server application?
17:12<@Rubidium>you can download the 32 bits lenny package from the website; that supports a dedicated server, but it requires some libraries that would mean you have to include X. So the 'best' way is to compile a dedicated server yourself; ./configure --enable-dedicated
17:13<Neon>Will I have to do something with X? It's a root server.
17:14<@Rubidium>nicfer1: in what way "from another location"? What kind of directory are you thinking of?
17:14<@Rubidium>Neon: if you compile yourself you don't need X
17:15<nicfer1>ln -s did the trick
17:17-!-lazy_bum [~lazy_bum@chello089077212220.chello.pl] has joined #openttd
17:17<lazy_bum>Hello.
17:17<@Rubidium>not too lazy though :)
17:18<lazy_bum>I've made updated ebuilds for Gentoo Linux and now trying to fix my TODO list with open{g,s}fx from teh source.
17:19<lazy_bum>But it ends with an ugly error about grfcodec not found.
17:19<@Rubidium>so package grfcodec too
17:19<@Rubidium>and nforenum
17:19<planetmaker>lazy_bum: that's a build requirement
17:19<@Rubidium>and catcodec
17:19<planetmaker>^
17:19<@Rubidium>(latter only for OpenSFX)
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17:19<lazy_bum>Is there a package with grfcodec (the source would be the best "Gentoo way" ;).
17:20<@Rubidium>openttd.org/download-grfcodec
17:20<planetmaker>svn://svn.ttdpatch.net/misc/nforenum
17:20<planetmaker>svn://svn.ttdpatch.net/misc/grfcodec
17:20<planetmaker>but... not a package
17:20<lazy_bum>Oh. Damn, I was looking at http://www.ttdpatch.net/grfcodec/
17:21<@Rubidium>that's the same, although quite horribly stale
17:21<planetmaker>Rubi's link is the one with the official nightlies
17:22<@Rubidium>planetmaker: if you abbreviate my name, do it correctly... as learnt at school :)
17:22<planetmaker>:-P
17:22<planetmaker>I just wonder whether you also have a highlight on Rb ;-)
17:22<lazy_bum>Thanks. (:
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17:22<@Rubidium>planetmaker: no, but neither on any other abbreviation/typoed variant
17:23<ashb>doesn't every irc client have tab completion on names?
17:23<planetmaker>well, so?
17:23<lazy_bum>Oh, btw TrueBrains comment on "our" bugzilla. "2) OpenSFX requires >= 1.0.0" - this will work with 1.0.0_beta1, right? (:
17:23<@Rubidium>ashb: probably not, but most have... but do people know that?
17:24<planetmaker>lazy_bum: yes
17:24<ashb>planetmaker: so ru<tab> is shorter than Rubi :)
17:24<PeterT><blathijs> PeterT: You mentioned something about a music replacement project, what was that about? <-- http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=46479
17:24<planetmaker>well, it was not my intention to save a keystroke. Rather to avoid unnecessary highlight
17:25<planetmaker>I know well of tab completion. Despite that it's sometimes even faster to write the name just using the normal keys. Fingers are faster there
17:26<@Rubidium>definitely true for writing planetmaker ;) cause pm gets confusing...
17:26<planetmaker>hehe :-)
17:27<planetmaker>pm is actually my primary nick. But it got too confusing ;-)
17:29<@Rubidium>yeah, sending a pm to pm in the pm
17:30<planetmaker>"in the pm" doesn't parse for me
17:31<planetmaker>or does that work in English as description for the time?
17:31<@Rubidium>that I hope it does :)
17:31<planetmaker>:-) I just never saw it used in this particular way
17:32<@Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/stats.pdf <- hmm... what happens when releasing a 1.0.0-beta1 :)
17:35<planetmaker>impressive :-) quite a bump, eh?
17:36<planetmaker>what's the "usual" bump after release of a new testing candidate of a new version?
17:37<@Rubidium>just look at February/March
17:37<@Rubidium>then the peak at April is 0.7.0
17:37<planetmaker>oh... it's one year more :-D
17:38<@Rubidium>and the subsequent peaks are 0.7.1 and further
17:39<planetmaker>funnily they get much less traffic... though the latest release of a branch should always be most stable
17:39<@Rubidium>so during betas most of the points are above the 'average'
17:40<@Rubidium>but now they are incredibly far above the average
17:40<planetmaker>taking that out, it's still a net gain of 33% or so
17:40<planetmaker>2000 vs. 1500
17:40<@Rubidium>yup
17:41<@Rubidium>probably a bit more than 2000, but yes something in that order
17:42<@Rubidium>anyhow, the 0.7.!0 releases are probably not that feature rich and they don't experience bugs so they don't migrate
17:42<planetmaker>yes, true. You only update, if you have trouble then.
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17:42<planetmaker>hm... our devzone traffic increased by 180GB in the last week...
17:43<planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/stats/usage_200912.html
17:43<planetmaker>alone on the 24th there were 138GB :-)
17:45<planetmaker>so... 9000 downloads of OpenGFX and OpenSFX that day
17:45<planetmaker>if both got equally pulled. Which is to be assumed IMO
17:46<@Rubidium>and that excludes whatever is installed via the Windows installer :)
17:47<planetmaker>that goes via your servers?
17:47<@Rubidium>yup
17:47<planetmaker>quite a bit addional traffic :-)
17:47-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1FCE6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
17:47<@Rubidium>definitely :)
17:48<+glx>7zip-ed but still :)
17:48<planetmaker>well, we have much bandwidth still. You could re-direct them to the devzone, too
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17:48<Neon>min_active_clients specifies how many playing clients are needed for unpausing the game, doesn't it?
17:48<+glx>yes
17:48<PeterT>yes, Neon
17:48<Neon>Thanks.
17:48<+glx>but only for dedicated servers
17:50<Neon>Of course
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17:52<planetmaker>hm... half the traffic is from a ukranian server...
17:52<@Rubidium>planetmaker: I find the spikes you're having odd, especially the 140 GB on a day spike
17:52<planetmaker>yes
17:53<@Rubidium>the 8 GB average I can believe, the 140 GB download I simply can't
17:53<planetmaker>that's probably this one...
17:55<@Rubidium>18% opengfx vs 6% opensfx (hits per referers), so opengfx is downloaded 3 times more although due to the filesizes the bandwidth usage is probably the same
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18:32<Terkhen>good night
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18:36<Eddi|zuHause><sparr> I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that public multiplayer is a waste of time. There are so many ways that one player can screw with another <-- like i said before, it is absolutely impossible to solve that by software. the only solution is an active moderator who can kick such people
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18:44<PeterT>Seems like you OpenTTD Developers have been playing a very nastly trick on us - http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=46508
18:45<+glx>I'd say wrong palette
18:45<planetmaker>seems like someone is using the wrong palette
18:45<Ammler>opengfx should solve it...
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>it's a jpeg!
18:46<Ammler>how is it possible to have wrong palette?
18:46<_ln>and jpegs don't have a palette → problem solved!
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: was asking myself that exact same question
18:47-!-fonsinchen [~alve@brln-4dbc1530.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>something insane like editing the .obg
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19:07<@orudge>woo, a fresh install of OS/2 actually seems to be working for me now in VMWare
19:09-!-vittorio [~vittorio@93-38-74-20.ip69.fastwebnet.it] has joined #openttd
19:09<vittorio>hi
19:09-!-vittorio is now known as koda
19:10<koda>first time visit, so nick is wrong ^^
19:11<PeterT>:-)
19:11<PeterT>orudge: is there any benefit in using OS/2?
19:11<@orudge>well
19:11<@orudge>I don't use it personally, but I created the OS/2 port of OpenTTD
19:11<@orudge>but have been unable to build new binaries for a few months
19:11<@orudge>I'd like to get some 0.7.5 and 1.0.0-beta 1 binaries out :)
19:12<PeterT>why do you make binaries for it?
19:12<PeterT>is it a popular system to play openttd on?
19:12<+glx>because we have users
19:12<@orudge>so that those who do use OS/2 can play OpenTTD
19:12<@orudge>OpenTTD is quite popular amongst OS/2 users it seems
19:12<@orudge>there aren't that many OS/2 users
19:12<@orudge>but there are some :)
19:13<PeterT>is this how ugly all OS/2 desktops are? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Os2W4.png
19:13<@orudge>probably
19:13-!-Chillosophy [~fu@195-241-120-76.ip.telfort.nl] has quit []
19:13<_ln>no, that's the Warp 4 desktop
19:13<PeterT>looks quite old
19:14<@orudge>well
19:14<@orudge>it is quite old
19:14<@orudge>eComStation is much more modern
19:14<@orudge>www.ecomstation.com
19:14<@orudge>although
19:14<@orudge>it's still OS/2
19:14<@orudge>but you can run many modern apps on it
19:14<@orudge>many more than people probably realise
19:14<koda>i've read of the deprecation of the macosx port
19:14<koda>has someone showed up?
19:15<@orudge>well, I don't think we have an "official" OS X developer at the moment
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>only a handful of fixes, not an official developer
19:15<PeterT>What happened to Bjarni?
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>and especially noone to code 10.6 support
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: who? :p
19:15<+glx>RL issues
19:16<PeterT>the mac osx port guy
19:16*orudge does have a shiny new MacBook Pro with 10.6, but alas, he's not particularly familiar with the OS X-specifics bits of OS X programming :p
19:16<_ln>excuses
19:16<+glx>and apple is good at breaking compatibility when API is updated
19:16<@orudge>quite
19:16<@orudge>of course, I can support OpenTTD on Wine on OS X ;)
19:16<@orudge>as hideous as it may be
19:17<koda>well i'm going to check out the sources and see if i can lend a hand :)
19:17<PeterT>I don't understand wine
19:17<PeterT>on linux
19:17<PeterT>running openttd
19:17<PeterT>where is the openttd.cfg?
19:17<PeterT>not in the binary dir, anyways
19:17<@orudge>it's wherever you left it
19:17<@orudge>well
19:17<@orudge>on Windows, openttd.cfg goes into My Documents, I do believe
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: same place as on windows
19:17<@orudge>by default
19:17<+glx>in mydocs
19:18<PeterT>I looked there
19:18<PeterT>well
19:18<PeterT>I'll have to test it again later
19:18<PeterT>I'm on windows now
19:18<+glx>anyway why run openttd with wine when there's a native port
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: by default, mydocs is mapped on /home/<user>
19:19<PeterT>anyway why run openttd with wine when there's a native port <-- some libraries aren't statically linked
19:19<+glx>compile yourself :)
19:19<+glx>it's very easy on linux
19:19-!-tdev [~tdev@p508ECE27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
19:19<PeterT>you don't need to tell me
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: but most distributions offer a correct package
19:20<+glx>and now most libs are linked statically IIRC
19:20<+glx>especially ICU
19:21<PeterT>IS2.0-beta5 didn't have them statically linked
19:21<+glx>it's not official
19:21<+glx>I don't care about non official builds :)
19:21<PeterT>keeping in mind IS binaries are compiled with the compile farm, same thing that compiles nightlies....
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19:27<koda>openttd is the first crossplatform game i see that is not build with cmake
19:27<koda>built*
19:28<@orudge>you've not seen many games, perhaps, I guess ;)
19:29<koda>yeah not many :p
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>it's funny that we don't use cmake _because_ of the cross-platform-ness ;)
19:30<koda>what do you mean?
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>with cmake it was impossible to set up an osx cross compiler
19:30-!-Zuu [Zuu@c-12f6e655.510-8-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:31<koda>ah that's bad :(
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>it's not "bad", we were like the first people to ever try to do that...
19:32<planetmaker>there are not many places which do use a cross compiler
19:32<koda>yeah a native build environment is always better, if possibile
19:33<+glx>but we did an impossible thing :)
19:34<koda>i don't get this:
19:34<koda>checking SDL... OSX, skipping
19:34<koda>checking COCOA... found
19:34<@orudge>well
19:34<+glx>SDL is broken on OSX
19:34<@orudge>it's looking for the SDL library, which isn't there
19:34<+glx>not our fault
19:34<@orudge>oh, well, yes
19:34<koda>what do you mean broken?
19:34<planetmaker>well... not broken. But slower
19:34<planetmaker>you don't use it on windows either
19:34<koda>only on linux?
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>and on half a dozen other platforms
19:35<+glx>we can use it on windows (but only for mingw by default, and dynamically loaded)
19:35<PeterT>is the compile farm a dedicated server/computer?
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes
19:35-!-zodttd [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd
19:35<+glx>and it's just a layer around native calls, so better use native calls
19:35<planetmaker>it's certainly glx' laptop or iphone
19:36<PeterT>Lol
19:36<PeterT>well, if I really wanted, I could do it on my laptop
19:36<+glx>not really dedicated, but VMs on our server
19:36<PeterT>over a span of weeks
19:37<planetmaker>I only work on my laptop on OpenTTD ;-)
19:37<koda>lol, -I/Users/mike/Documents/darwine/usr/include/libpng12 , any non-mike people will have hard times at compiling :)
19:38<planetmaker>wth is that from?
19:38<koda>from svn in the CFLAGS configure output
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>well, of course, every other person will get a different configure output
19:39<planetmaker>configure does what it says: configure for where it is being built and installed
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>that's what configure is for
19:40<koda>yeah, too bad my name is vittorio and i have no user called mike :)
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>then your system is heavily screwed up
19:40<planetmaker>^
19:40<PeterT>It's so that your linux doesn't compile windows files
19:40<PeterT>and vice-versa
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>... and his osx doesn't compile at all :p
19:41<PeterT>nope, osx users must compile with shovel and ax
19:43<koda>well, i got up to the linking stage
19:43<PeterT>let me guess, an error?
19:44<koda>missing png12, but that's fixable
19:44<PeterT>ah
19:44<PeterT>are you compiling clean trunk or a patch build?
19:44<koda>trunk, with some patches at the makefile.src.in
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know of any mike person ever involved with the build system...
19:44<planetmaker>for that kind of error the question is irrelevant ;-)
19:45<planetmaker>koda: so... you modify makefile.src.in, add a mike there and wonder about? ;-)
19:45<koda>but i did not add any mike :-S
19:46<@peter1138>not our fault if your system is messed up :D
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19:46*koda longs for a cmake build system
19:46<@peter1138>pkg-config libpng --cflags
19:46<@peter1138>-I/usr/include/libpng12
19:47<@peter1138>yours says /Users/mike ... etc
19:48<koda>i'm going to investigate that after i get a working build...
19:48<PeterT>if
19:49<@peter1138>well you need that fixed to _get_ a working build
19:49<planetmaker>koda: you can always specify the linker path manually
19:49<planetmaker>maybe you have funny environ settings
19:49<@peter1138>btw, is SDL really slower on OSX, or was it just slower on bjarni's system with 8bpp?
19:49<planetmaker>+ment
19:49<@peter1138>if it is, as said, just a wrapper...
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>no, it was said: sdl on windows is just a wrapper
19:50<planetmaker>in order to give really an answer I'd have to really test that :-)
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20:05<_ln>koda: build system is not the issue with the Mac version (nor others)
20:06<_ln>koda: besides, cmake is a pain in the ... if you want to compile for a system which doesn't have it installed and you don't have root access.
20:07<koda>... which is rarely the case
20:07<_ln>depends
20:07<koda>i was just puzzled by the configure script, it's really well done
20:08<koda>but it's the first i analyze so i'm a little lost
20:08<planetmaker>did you try with an unpatched build system?
20:08<planetmaker>e.g. w/o mods to any makefile or so?
20:09<koda>planetmaker: of course, but it fails at crashlog.cpp
20:09<_ln>fails how?
20:09<planetmaker>^
20:09<koda>missing includes, png.h and ft2build.h
20:10<koda>i just added the proper dir in the makefile.inc.in
20:10<planetmaker>well, I guess your system is really a bit need of maintenance.
20:10<_ln>hmmm.... hmmmmm. you don't have X11 installed?
20:10<@orudge>woo
20:10<planetmaker>did you try sudo port install libpng ?
20:10*orudge should have an OS/2 build again soon :)
20:10<@orudge>whether it'll all work or not is nanother matter
20:10<@orudge>*another
20:11<koda>lipng is already installed i just don't know how to tell the configure script where it is
20:12<@orudge>can you not just download and reinstall libpng? it's not a particularly large library
20:12<+glx>configure checks for include and libs usability too
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20:12<+glx>it it detected it then it should work
20:13<koda>it detects it, but says it doesn't find it at linking stage
20:13<_ln>orudge: your effort for the OS/2 version is much appreciated although I'm not a regular user anymore, not even on vm.
20:14<@orudge>heh, no problem
20:17<_ln>what editor are you using on OS/2, btw?
20:18<@orudge>well, so far, I haven't needed to do any major editing. In the past, I've just used e for quick edits, but I can't say I especially like it. Recommendations are appreciated
20:18<@orudge>I guess I could probably get vi for OS/2, I'm sure
20:18<koda>vi FTW
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20:20<_ln>orudge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/efte/ (a fork of the best editor on the planet, FTE)
20:21<_ln>(OS/2 binary is under 1.0 in the Files section)
20:22<koda>cool, compiling out of source fails :\
20:27<sparr>can anyone recommend a good [semi]public server? I'd like to keep playing multiplayer, but it's too easy for people to ruin the game on completely open servers
20:28<planetmaker>easy-peasy-luckland is constantly advertizing
20:28<PeterT>it's annoying
20:29-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77D77.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:29<PeterT>sparr: join #jonty for the answer...
20:30<Xaroth>isn't advertising the channel where he could find such a server, kinda answering him already?
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20:34<PeterT>Xaroth: No.
20:35<Xaroth>then I agree to disagree.
20:35<@orudge>hmm
20:36*orudge twiddles his thumbs while ICU compiles
20:36<PeterT>madness, you say?
20:37<@orudge>quite
20:38<@peter1138>koda, works here
20:39<koda>must be an osx issue
20:39<@peter1138>although it won't run, as some stuff under bin isn't there
20:39<PeterT>Or a koda issue
20:39<Xaroth>osx IS an issue :P
20:39<koda>ok i'm past the linking stage, only 2 symbols missing
20:40<koda>_iconv and _iconv_open
20:41<Eddi|zuHause>your system is seriously screwed up or you simply didn't install all requirements
20:42<koda>and the third option is...
20:42<Eddi|zuHause>... screw osx
20:42<koda>:D
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21:00<koda>ok, linking done
21:01<koda>after that? make bundle?
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21:02<sparr>is it intentional that the city airport limit applies to airports very far away if they are 'claimed' by the city (named after it)? how is such a claim determined?
21:02<+glx>koda: cd bin && ./openttd
21:03<PeterT>is there a way to compile only one specific language file, and not all of them?
21:03<+glx>yes remove the other
21:03<koda>failed to find a sounds set (etc)
21:03*koda goes reading readme.txt again
21:03<PeterT>well, I haven't modified the others, so it won't compile them, but I don't want to compile the ENTIRE source all over again
21:04<Eddi|zuHause>koda: that means it's working ;)
21:04<PeterT>just english.txt -> english.lng
21:04<+glx>any change in english.txt means change in strings.h
21:04<PeterT>ah
21:04<+glx>implies recompile
21:05<Eddi|zuHause>almost all files depend on strings.h
21:05<+glx>changes in stdafx.h are nice too :)
21:06<koda>Eddi|zuHause: yep, had any doubts? ;)
21:06<PeterT>what happened: http://paste.openttd.org/220790
21:06<Eddi|zuHause>koda: yes, plenty
21:07<+glx>PeterT: wrong syntax in english_us.txt
21:07<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: you screwed up the file?
21:07<PeterT>I changed it, yes
21:08<+glx>hmm you added UTF8 BOM ?
21:08<PeterT>this is all I changed: http://paste.openttd.org/220791
21:09<+glx>-##name English (US)
21:09<+glx>+##name English (US)
21:09<+glx>yup UTF8 BOM
21:09<+glx>blame your text editor :)
21:09<+glx>lang files are UTF8 without BOM
21:09<PeterT>ah
21:10-!-tdev [~tdev@p508ECE27.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:11<PeterT>what do you edit the lang files with?
21:11<+glx>MSVC, notepad++, ...
21:11<PeterT>Ok, MSVC it is
21:12<koda>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24468/screen-capture.png
21:12<PeterT>thanks, it works now!
21:16<koda>file bin/openttd
21:16<koda>openttd: Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64
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21:29<PeterT>logo done thanks to glx and Eddi|zuHause: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=843964#p843964
21:41<PeterT>it seems koda just got an account
21:41<koda>:)
21:41<PeterT>what are you replying to/
21:42<koda>this project sounds challenging enough for me to hang around
21:42<PeterT>have you seen my logo?
21:42<PeterT>You have a blank signature, maybe you should add it :-)
21:42<koda>i'm posting some hope in the "future of macosx" :)
21:43<koda>yeah nice logo :D
21:43<PeterT>thanks
21:45-!-Majo [~blwyj57@77-253-136-43.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #openttd
21:45<Majo>hi
21:45<Majo>anybody on? I have a quick question
21:47<Chrill>yes?
21:48<Chrill>I'll do my best to help, Majo
21:48<Majo>I downloaded europe map
21:48<Majo>and i've changed date to 2015 so I can build biggest airports
21:48<PeterT>yes
21:48<Majo>but I can't do it anywhere - it flashes me that cities councils are concerned with noise
21:49<Eddi|zuHause>yes, they do that
21:49<Chrill>Advanced Settings
21:49<Chrill>you can turn off the noise level thingie there
21:49<Majo>in economy part?
21:49<PeterT>under stations
21:49<PeterT>Stations -> Allow town restricted noise level, etc..
21:50-!-Chrill [~chrischri@80.216.60.117] has quit [Quit: Sleepsieeee]
21:51<Majo>thanks
21:51<koda>i wonder if i can now try the sdl video backend...
21:51-!-Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep.]
21:51<Majo>damn, I've searched like for an hour the answer
21:51<@orudge>hmm, IPv6 is proving a problem on OS/2
21:51<Majo>thanks, and also congratz for devs for 1.0b!
21:52-!-Majo [~blwyj57@77-253-136-43.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit []
21:53<@orudge>woo, enough hackery to get the first file to compile
21:54<Eddi|zuHause>can't configure turn off ipv6?
21:55<@orudge>nope
21:55-!-Splex__ [~splex@n058152254152.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:55<@orudge>however, some tweaking and adding of stuff to os_abstraction.h in theory should be all I need
21:55<Eddi|zuHause>so all or nothing...
21:55<@orudge>let's see how it goes
21:55<@orudge>well, that plus a few #ifdefs
21:57<PeterT>@seen koda
21:57<@DorpsGek>PeterT: koda was last seen in #openttd 6 minutes and 30 seconds ago: <koda> i wonder if i can now try the sdl video backend...
21:58<koda>hm?
22:01<PeterT>nothing
22:02<PeterT>koda: will you put my logo in your sig?
22:02<koda>PeterT: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?avatar=29651_1259718482.gif this one?
22:03<koda>PeterT: you wrote "Apple requires you to to purchase a machine for which development is so much harder."
22:03<koda>actually developing for iphone uses 90% the same apis of standard macs
22:04<koda>so if you learn one platform you automatically learn the other one
22:04-!-Splex [~splex@pcd345041.netvigator.com] has joined #openttd
22:04<koda>and if wouldn't call that "hard development" :)
22:04<koda>s/if/i/
22:06<PeterT>macs are stupid
22:06<PeterT>so restricted
22:06<PeterT>they made jailbreaking iPhones/ipods illegal
22:06<PeterT>koda: put this code in your sig
22:06<PeterT>[url=http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=46479][img]http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=121962[/img][/url]
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22:07<koda>that has nothing to do with development :)
22:07<PeterT>pweez
22:08<Eddi|zuHause><PeterT> they made jailbreaking iPhones/ipods illegal <-- that's probably void if they wanted to go to court
22:08<Eddi|zuHause>reverse engineering and stuff is legal for "providing compatibility"
22:08<Eddi|zuHause>in most jurisdictions
22:09<PeterT>hopefully it is
22:09-!-zodttd2 [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd
22:10<PeterT>Nice sig koda
22:10<koda>;)
22:12-!-zodtttd [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd
22:14<koda>avatar uploaded too
22:16-!-zodttd [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:17<PeterT>Lol avatar
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22:21<PeterT>i'm off
22:21<PeterT>thanks for the help
22:21<koda>bye PeterT
22:21<PeterT>bye koda
22:21-!-PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-211-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Bye all]
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22:36<koda>well i'm off too
22:36<koda>bye all
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23:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: orudge * r18656 /trunk/src/thread/thread_os2.cpp: -Feature: Add event semaphore support for OS/2
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 29 00:00:19 2009