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#openttd IRC Logs for 2009-12-29

---Logopened Tue Dec 29 00:00:19 2009
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00:35<@orudge>hmm, well, it seems I shall have to do some more tweaking and prodding to get OpenTTD's networking to work properly on a system where IPv6 isn't supported, but that I may do tomorrow
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02:24<roboboy>hello
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02:56<Terkhen>good morning
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02:58<andythenorth>morning
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03:53<sparr>what is the optimal design for a single track handling two way traffic?
03:54<@peter1138>whatever doesn't jam
03:54<sparr>I can't come up with anything that handles more than [the number of parallel tracks at the waiting points]+2 trains
03:54<sparr>err, +1
03:55<sparr>can you be more specific on the topic of what doesn't jam?
03:55<@peter1138>you need passing places if you want more
03:56<sparr>yes, but wide passing places?
03:57<sparr>with just one extra track at the passing place i cant find a design that works for more than 3 trains
03:58<roboboy>try using pre signals to block/allow trains in between passing lanes
03:58<@peter1138>if you're using path signals properly it won't jam until it's absolutely full
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04:00<roboboy>but if the train needs to get in to a passing lane thats taken wont path signals not help?
04:00<sparr>my problem is when there are trains in both passing lanes, and trains on both sides of the passing lanes on the single track
04:01<sparr>if one of those sides is the end of the line, the system jams
04:01<@peter1138>roboboy, if it's taken, how will it get in it?
04:02<roboboy>bah
04:02<roboboy>if its in the previous passing lane
04:02<Brianetta>sparr: If you're using path signals, one of the passing tracks should be the single track
04:02<Brianetta>That is, there should only be two signals
04:02<sparr>peter1138: have an example screenshot, server, or save showing the proper way to use path signals?
04:03<sparr>for this, not in general
04:03<sparr>Brianetta: where?
04:03<Brianetta>sparr: At the places in the passing place where you'd like trains to wait.
04:03<Brianetta>That is, the exits.
04:03<Brianetta>One in each direction, usually.
04:04<sparr>if those are the only signals, then won't the first train that enters the track reserve (or block) the entire thing?
04:04<Brianetta>Here's a general rule for path signals: Put them where you want trains to stop. If having a train stop at the signal would get int he way, don't put the signal there.
04:05<Brianetta>Which version of openttd are you using?
04:05<sparr>ha
04:05<sparr>0.7.5, 0.8-svn, 1.0-svn, and various patched versions
04:06*Brianetta compiles 0.7.5
04:06<Brianetta>I'll make you a saved game with many trains on a basic siongle line
04:06<sparr>thanks
04:06<sparr>i've probably got whatever version you already have compiled
04:07<sparr>if you want to use something other than 0.7.5
04:07<Brianetta>0.7.1 and some non-recent trunk
04:07<sparr>oh, wow :)
04:07<sparr>maybe not then
04:07<@peter1138>sparr, if will load in 0.7.5
04:07*Brianetta is in mid-compile
04:07<Brianetta>won't take ling
04:07<Brianetta>long
04:08<sparr>another item on my simple-patches-to-write list... replace "VERSION MISMATCH" with a message that gives the version the server is using... i hate having to go to the web to find out
04:09<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/passing.png
04:09<Brianetta>That's pretty much it
04:09<@peter1138>sparr, it's ... shown in the in-game server list
04:09<sparr>ok, mentally adjusting to drive/signals on the left...
04:10<Brianetta>peter1138: Some of us specify the game info on the cammand line
04:10<@peter1138>yes, but then you already know the details of the server...
04:10<Brianetta>unless it got upgraded
04:10<sparr>peter1138: in your picture, there is a train approaching from the top right, which has the track reserved up to the signal, yes?
04:10<@peter1138>yes
04:10<@peter1138>i have another one of those passing spots
04:11<@peter1138>and another station of the same size
04:11<@peter1138>max capacity is 7 trains
04:11<sparr>so the passing spot is one way... i think i get it
04:12<Brianetta>Making it two-way without having somebody to make decisions (a signalman) isn't practical. All automatic passing places are one way.
04:12<Brianetta>On narrow gauge lines, the points are often spring loaded.
04:15<roboboy>does the dedicated server variant of OpenTTD use significantly less resources?
04:15<sparr>I was trying to signal the "passing track" as two-way
04:15<Brianetta>roboboy: No.
04:16<sparr>instead of having each direction pass on a specific side
04:16<roboboy>ok thanx
04:16<Brianetta>roboboy: It doesn't require an X server, though
04:16<Brianetta>so the machine makes a RAM and CPU saving there
04:16<roboboy>ok
04:16<Brianetta>unless you ruin X anyway
04:16<Brianetta>er
04:16<Brianetta>run X anyway
04:17<Brianetta>sparr: Common practice is to put stations on passing places. These, two, should have two one-way platforms.
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04:29<sparr>Brianetta: why?
04:30<Brianetta>Be more specific.
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04:31<sparr>why would you put stations there?
04:32<Brianetta>Because it's likely thst your trains will be stopping there anyway.
04:35<sparr>but there's nothing there for a station to accomplish
04:35<Brianetta>Then you could have thought about your track a little better (:
04:38<sparr>ha
04:38<sparr>the long distance rail intemtionally avoids industries :-p
04:38<sparr>also, spelling failures indicate time to sleep
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05:10<sparr>i encountered a bug earlier
05:10<sparr>had an airport with an adjacent bus terminal with an adjacent bus terminal that was not the same station
05:10<sparr>was unable to give a bus orders to visit the first (attached to the airport) bus terminal
05:11<sparr>clicking on the terminal or the airport (with the Go To cursor) had no effect
05:11<sparr>going to try to duplicate it when i get a chance, then file a bug report with a save
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05:26<Taytay>hey, is there cargo destination in svn ?
05:29<Zuu>Not in trunk if that is what you are trying to say.
05:30<Zuu>There is the cargoist project, but they use git (not svn) and it is separate from the trunk.
05:31<Taytay>Zuu: ok ! where can i find the repo ? I just found a mercurial on the wiki, but there is an error when i launch make
05:33<Zuu>Check the development forum (forum 33)
05:33<Taytay>oki ! thanks
05:33<jonty-comp>there's bundles on the openttdcoop compile farm
05:33<jonty-comp>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cargodist/g714743faM-cargodist/
05:39<Zuu>I'd recommend reading the first post in the cargodist thread at least: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=41992
05:39<Zuu>There you get an introduction to the work.
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05:47<NeosaD>Buenas!!!!
05:48<NeosaD>;)
05:48<__ln>buenos días
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07:18<SHADOW-XIII>hi guys
07:20<SHADOW-XIII>just wanted to ask about availability of OTTD for ARM chips (linux) ? no chance for official support with everyday builds ?
07:21<@Rubidium>SHADOW-XIII: use Debian
07:22<@Rubidium>https://buildd.debian.org/build.php?&pkg=openttd&arch=armel <- they've got binaries since 0.6.0
07:23<@Rubidium>adding it to our compile farm is tricky because there are quite a few distributions and... at least two flavours of arm binaries
07:23<@Rubidium>https://buildd.debian.org/build.php?&pkg=openttd&arch=arm <- the other flavour of arm (has binaries 0.5.0-0.6.3)
07:41<FauxFaux>Cough opensuse build service cough.
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07:46<SHADOW-XIV>Rubidium: but nothing close to nightly one ... :/
07:46<SHADOW-XIV>like beta 1.0
07:46<zar>hello
07:46<planetmaker>build it yourself, SHADOW-XI
07:46<planetmaker>salut zar
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07:59<SHADOW-XIV>http://www.gamertagradio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=76097#post76097 OnLive in action, 48minutes video
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09:04<@Belugas>hello
09:05<planetmaker>buenos dias, Belugas
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09:25<+michi_cc>orudge: You might want to look at os/2 clipboard stuff, it's probably broken. I looked at it while doing the OSX clipboard support and to me it seems to use some ansi encoding and not utf-8.
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09:26<vittorio>hi
09:26<vittorio>... wrong nick again
09:26-!-vittorio is now known as koda
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10:13<PeterT>orudge: is OS/2 free?
10:14<__ln>of course not.
10:14<PeterT>screw it then
10:19<@Belugas>o_O
10:20<@Belugas>so... screw Windows, screw MacOS, screw... what else??? Gaz, food, books, clothes...
10:20<blathijs>TrueBrain_: Would it be a good idea to add a Ubuntu build in addition to the Debian Lenny build? Ubuntu Karmic no longer has libicu38, so the Debian Lenny deb doesn't work on Ubuntu right now.
10:20<PeterT>No, I'm just not going to pay extra for something I don't need
10:21<PeterT>I thought it was free, so I would download and put it on a VM
10:21<__ln>is there evidence that anything really works on Karmic?
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10:24<Ammler>blathijs: isn't that the reason, libicu is statically linked?
10:24<@Rubidium>blathijs: for Karmic they should use the generic binaries, not the ones for Lenny
10:26<@Rubidium>blathijs: but... *if* we're going to make packages for Ubuntu we ought to depend on libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio
10:27<blathijs>Rubidium: Generic binaries aren't .debs, so that's only a partial solution
10:27<dihedral>__ln, i use 9.10
10:28<@Rubidium>blathijs: and .debs for *Lenny* aren't meant to be used for *Karmic*
10:29<blathijs>Rubidium: I know, that's why I suggest adding debs for Karmic :-)
10:30<blathijs>Rubidium: Depending on libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio is tricky, since that enforces the use of pulse, while that's not strictly needed.
10:30<blathijs>But I agree that it greatly improves the out-of-the-box experience, though
10:30<@Rubidium>blathijs: otherwise you'll get inundated with bug reports about OpenTTD using 100% CPU
10:31<blathijs>Rubidium: We didn't find the cause for that yet?
10:32<@Rubidium>blathijs: well some bug in sdl -> alsa -> pulseaudio
10:36<@Rubidium>e.g. it's a known bug with solution for tuxpaint too
10:37<blathijs>tuxpaint? Some other SDL app?
10:37<@Rubidium>yes
10:37<@Rubidium>https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tuxpaint/+bug/269082
10:37<blathijs>And the fix doesn't apply to us?
10:37<@Rubidium>blathijs: yes, the fix applies to us too
10:38<@Rubidium>and the fix is ...
10:38<@Rubidium>... installing libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio
10:38<@Rubidium>i.e. *exactly* the same fix as the fix for us
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10:55<Neon>Will evening the area e.g. around a farm increase it's produce?
10:56<@orudge>it'll have no effect
10:57<blathijs>Rubidium: That's not a fix, that's a workaround.
10:58<Neon>Ok D:
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11:01<andythenorth>Neon: intriguing idea
11:01<andythenorth>it *could* be coded that way
11:01<andythenorth>but it's probably a bit strange :)
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11:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: spontaneous idea: for every tile loop that passes a farm field, if field is at end of cycle, add to a counter of the appropriate farm [farm info is already stored in the map]. farm produces if counter reaches a certain value
11:41<PeterT>Why do giant screenshots always crash...
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: because you run out of memory?
11:42<PeterT>is that why, really?
11:42<PeterT>what is the memory needed?
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>raw image?
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>something like 32x16 pixels per tile
11:43<PeterT>giant screenshot for map 512x1024
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>something around 256MB, i think
11:44<PeterT>strangely enough, it takes the screenshot, it just crashes
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>"crash" is not an error message
11:45<PeterT>60,000kb
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: PNGs are compressed, the uncompressed size is relevant
11:46<PeterT>How you do uncompress them? And why would you uncompress them?
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11:46<zar>they're uncompressed in memory
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>if you have to ask that, you have no idea how compressing works
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11:52<koda>soooo
11:52<koda>about the macosx port
11:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: spontaneous idea...extend it to arbitrary tiles (use an action 2 or similar to choose sprites)
11:53<koda>i still don't understand what are you looking for
11:53<andythenorth>hi koda :)
11:53<koda>hi andythenorth
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't follow
11:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: nvm...another time ;)
11:54<andythenorth>koda: basically someone who both cares enough and has the skills to keep the OS X port alive
11:54<andythenorth>*fully supported* with no weird bugs
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>you by "arbitrary tiles" you mean "more industry-plantable tiles than just farm fields"?
11:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yes
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>-you
11:55<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=42440&hilit=industry+tiles
11:55<andythenorth>it's an old drum I'm banging :D
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's fairly easy, with one catch: currently farm fields store the industry id, so that could be used to reference arbitrary industries, but this reference must stay valid when the industry closes
11:56<koda>andythenorth: i believe that a crossplatform game should use crossplatform development tools, so since noone wants to deal with the objc part we could just use sdl for video rendering, io and other stuff
11:56<andythenorth>koda: and there I'm rapidly out of my depth....all I know is:
11:57<andythenorth>(1) giving Rubidium a mac doesn't solve the problem :o
11:57<andythenorth>(2) I would be sad to see the OS X port disappear, but the crossover solution might work
11:57<andythenorth>(3) I can't help with code. In fact, I haven't even done the mac testing I said I would :(
11:58<andythenorth>(I don't really play the game very often)
11:58<@Belugas>koda, not that i want to be rude, but that's bullshit. there is no such thing. you NEED to be able to test and debug in the native platform, since all APIs are different in their implementations, and DO reaquire some adjustments, which require vry good knowledge of the underneath stuff
11:59<koda>not true, if you use sdl everything platform specific is wrapped and you just have to deal with 1 api, that is the sdl one
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>koda: you forget that sdl is not ported to 10.6 either
11:59<_ln>koda: SDL is too slow (and possibly otherwise crappy too)
11:59<andythenorth>hmm....I have some house tidying to do....Eddi|zuHause can we discuss industry tiles later? :)
11:59<koda>and that's bullcrap
11:59<koda>i have sdl on 10.6 here
12:00<koda>and it's not slow, other games arrive at 250 fps
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12:00<koda>i can provide screenshots, do you have some proof supporting that sdl is not for 10.6 and it's slow?
12:01<koda>it's true that using platform specific code you get more performance, but you can apply it only for very specific sections and only if you have some native enviroment to build on
12:01<koda>as this is not the case, dropping to a crosscompiler is difficult and dangerous
12:01<_ln>koda: afaik, the Mac port initially used SDL, but it was dropped when better, native implementations were written.
12:01<koda>so the code should use only portable api such as sdl or other libraris
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>koda: i make a vague proposal: you have no real clue what you're talking about.
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>*proposition
12:02<zar>using a portable api is surely wiser if there's nobody to keep the native implementations up-to-date :)
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12:03<koda>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that goes along "you're build enviroment is broken" of yesterday that led my to a successfull build...
12:03<_ln>assuming there is someone to keep the portable api's implementation up-to-date.
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>zar: but there's nobody who can keep the portable implementations up to date either
12:03<koda>_ln: it appears that the native implementation has been deprecated quickly
12:03<zar>Eddi|zuHause: with for example SDL, that's someone else's problem
12:04<+glx>yes Apple deprecates stuff with each new version
12:04<_ln>zar: no, it's "our" problem if it doesn't work well enough for "us".
12:04<koda>one more reason to drop the burden to someone else, like sdl guys
12:04<_ln>glx: and Microsoft never deprecates any stuff, which is not the greatest option either.
12:04<+glx>we'll still get the complaints
12:04<zar>_ln: well, if the api isn't horribly broken, it's still less of a burden.
12:05<+glx>_ln: it does deprecate stuff (like dmusic)
12:05<planetmaker>[18:03] <koda> _ln: it appears that the native implementation has been deprecated quickly <-- if you call two years quickly...
12:06<planetmaker>it is quickly, though, by X11 standards.
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12:07<@Belugas>sometimes... people are just... pffffffff
12:08<planetmaker>besides there's not much point in a "you do it wrong" discussion. By whatever means you chose, you'll need a native port maintainer in any case.
12:08*Belugas goes back to listening mode...
12:08<+glx>and remember openttd still runs on 10.3.9 :)
12:08<zar>i'd like to maintain the port, but i lack the skills. :)
12:08<zar>(and time)
12:08<zar>i guess that's the case for many people.
12:08<planetmaker>^
12:09<koda>:) sorry let me rephrase that, what i meant that if one guy makes a native port and then drops it at any moment, maybe it should have been better to keep the code not-platform specific
12:09<planetmaker>sillls can be aquired, though
12:09<planetmaker>koda: also that statement is pointless.
12:09<koda>why
12:10<planetmaker>_you_ _should_ _have_ _done_
12:10<+glx>we use platform specific for all platforms
12:10<planetmaker>in this combination it's a very bad one
12:10<+glx>because it's better
12:10<_ln>koda: the safest way would have been not to write the game in the first place.
12:10<+glx>anyway the main problem with OSX port was the porter ;)
12:11<zar>shouldn't you be thinking about how to improve the situation.
12:11<zar>instead of fighting like little kids
12:11<_ln>we need to order a clone of Bjarni from some rogue scientist.
12:11<+glx>SDL used to crash on exit
12:11<+glx>(on OSX)
12:11<koda>planetmaker: ok my choice of words is poor, but try to get my message
12:11<koda>the osx port should not be abandoned
12:11<planetmaker>zar: absolutely. In my experience it's always ok and welcome, if you supply patches.
12:12<koda>and since noone wants to step up, just try to keep the code compilable with crossplatform apis
12:12<planetmaker>koda: well. It's not abandoned. There's no one of the current devs who can run it natively.
12:12<planetmaker>And that's a problem
12:12<_ln>zar: fighting and finding the persons to blame has been the channel policy since the beginning.
12:12<zar>we have another project running on SDL, and it somewhat works with OS X 10.6 too, so at least it's not completely broken.
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12:12<planetmaker>even if you work cross-platform. You need to test whether it works. It's not everything smoothly portable.
12:13<+glx>I can only test 10.3.9 in pearpc and 10.4.8 in vmware
12:13<koda>well so you'd need someone who can build it and check it works fine?
12:13<zar>testers are easier to get than developers :)
12:14<planetmaker>how do you want to port system font detection? chinese character input? You need some system calls for that
12:14<Alberth>somebody that fixes the problems when they arise is needed
12:14<@Belugas>koda, seeing how hard Rubidium tried to keep it alive, i would say that he did his best to keep it alive. If HE failed to solve the problems, then he REALLY needs someone WHO KOWS to step in. He tried. TI was not just out of bad will.
12:14*worldemar wants japanese input
12:15<+glx>worldemar: that's CJK ;)
12:15<+glx>and we need someone to implement it
12:15<koda>Belugas: but i can't understand WHAT the problems are, can you point me to them
12:15<planetmaker>koda: look at flyspray
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12:16<+glx>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2782
12:16<planetmaker>and it needs *someone* to actually take care of it. To fix OS-specific bugs somewhat timely
12:17<planetmaker>and then there's the problem of the compile farm...
12:17<+glx>compile farm works :)
12:17<planetmaker>... a native X-Serve is hard to come by, if you don't want to spend $$$
12:17<Alberth>koda: http://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=[OSX]&project=1
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>compile farm is not the problem, testing environment is
12:17<planetmaker>glx: yes. And much appreciated :-)
12:18<+glx>it even generates universal builds
12:18<koda>we could add a mac mini server to the farm :D
12:18<koda>less costly than xserves
12:18<+glx>no we can't
12:19<planetmaker>even a testing environment doesn't guarantee that things can be reproduced... http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3194 <-- e.g. I don't see it.
12:19<+glx>and as said compilation is not the problem
12:19<Alberth>must be rack-mountable
12:20<@Belugas>adding a server for each supported platform is a good idea. why didn't we though of that before ;)
12:21<@Belugas>after all, we do cross plactform, so we must have different plactforms available, right?
12:21<@Belugas>hehehe
12:21<planetmaker>hehe
12:21<+glx>we use native for all builds except OSX
12:21<+glx>because it's quite impossible to set up OSX in a virtual machine
12:22<zar>there seems to be an IME editor in planning for SDL
12:24<planetmaker>Hm... http://alex.csgraf.de/self/?qemu/
12:26<+glx>VirtualBox (I won't do it) <-- that's our problem :)
12:27<planetmaker>and http://d4wiki.goddamm.it/index.php?title=Howto:_Mac_OSX_on_KVM
12:27<planetmaker>yeah... if it has to be virtual box... :-)
12:29<+glx>oh and the server is AMD IIRC :)
12:35<planetmaker>well... possible in self-made-mode, I guess: http://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2076
12:35<planetmaker>Not sure how much hassle it is, though
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13:00<PeterT>!dl
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13:02<planetmaker>:-D
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13:03<koda>well i'm off then, bye
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13:04<andythenorth>@seen Pikka
13:04<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Pikka was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 1 day, 6 hours, 44 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <Pikka> a certain other project :P
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13:07<planetmaker>I guess he's more around in the forums, andythenorth
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13:25<_ln>why does http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1140 block the "Port hopelessly outdated" bug?
13:26<Alberth>all OSX bugs do
13:27<Alberth>ie the 'hopelessly outdated' issue is a collection of OSX things that need fixing
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13:28<ashb>the OSX port has a lot of objc code - it doesn't use SDL for events does it?
13:28<ashb>or is most of hte objc to do with rendering?
13:28<_ln>but since 1140 is about an OSX-only feature, ... one can't claim it works worse on OSX than others.
13:28<planetmaker>ashb: no, it usess the native cocoa / carbon features
13:28<_ln>ashb: the OS X port doesn't use SDL at all, afaik.
13:28<planetmaker>and apple has its API in objc
13:29<ashb>why doesn't it use SDL?
13:29<ashb>(i.e. is there a good reason or just 'it doesnt')
13:29<planetmaker>there probably was one back then
13:29<_ln>[18:59] <_ln> koda: SDL is too slow (and possibly otherwise crappy too)
13:29<planetmaker>and "it doesn't" certainly applies. No one made it an option.
13:29<@Rubidium>ashb: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2
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13:30<ashb>Rubidium: so dont statically link? ;)
13:30<@Rubidium>ashb: even then SDL misses functions to determine what font to use for a given language
13:30<ashb>ah k
13:31<+glx>ashb: and expect users will have SDL lib installed ?
13:31<ashb>glx: you can bundle it in the .app
13:31<planetmaker>he... SDL is certainly not a default install on mac
13:31<ashb>@executable_path/../lib/libsdl.dylib
13:31<_ln>planetmaker: as hinted by Bjarni's comment in /2, SDL was used on OS X earlier.
13:31<ashb>etc
13:32<planetmaker>_ln: yes. I figured ;-)
13:32<@Rubidium>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/18
13:32<ashb>'so dynamic linking is out of the question (they don't like opening libs in non-standard locations)'
13:32<ashb>that seems wrong
13:33<+glx>we dropped 10.2 support a long time ago
13:33<@Rubidium>ashb: there are more fishy things...
13:34<planetmaker>he... Bjarni really didn't like SDL it seems ;-)
13:34<@Rubidium>anyhow, it would require someone to properly build *and* test a universal library, incorporate that into the compile farm
13:34<@Rubidium>which is a bitch
13:34<ashb>Rubidium: i'm just idly wondering if its worth investing time in SDL
13:35<ashb>or just drop support for PPC, since 'supporting' intel macs is better than supporting no macs
13:35<_ln>ashb: wrong
13:35<@Rubidium>ashb: well, I'd propose dropping Intel support, because that has been giving all the trouble the last 3 years
13:35<andythenorth>_ln: why?
13:35<planetmaker>well, why? ^
13:36<planetmaker>intel macs are the future of macos
13:36<ashb>PPC hasn't been sold for about 5 years now
13:36<planetmaker>and with the current retail price of snow leopard it will probably spread quite quickly
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13:36<andythenorth>anyone still using OS 9 or 8 is in a world of crashy pain. Kind of nice to look at, but massively unstable
13:36<_ln>andythenorth: because Intel Mac owners have various ways to run Windows® on their Mac, and play OTTD on Windows. On PPC not so much.
13:37<@Rubidium>like OS X's APIs
13:37<planetmaker>_ln: ppc users can run a flavour of *nix
13:37<+glx>and we still support 10.3.9 ppc :)
13:37<andythenorth>if PPC support is being dropped anyway, how do PPC owners lose out if the intel build continues?
13:37<andythenorth>they lose the same amount either way
13:37<_ln>PPC support is not being dropped.
13:37<planetmaker>glx: honestly, but if 10.3.x and 10.4 are in the way of a port maintained or not - I'd strongly vote for dropping that support.
13:38<@Rubidium>planetmaker: but it's primarily 10.5 and 10.6 on Intel that's in the way...
13:38<+glx>ppc is not the problem indeed :)
13:38<+glx>all trouble started with 10.5
13:39<andythenorth>it's kind of strange that the newgrf tools got a mac build, but the game drops the mac support. I know why, just seems weird.
13:40<andythenorth>I only bought Crossover to use grfcodec, now I will need it for the game and have a mac native grfcodec at the same time
13:40<planetmaker>:-) well... only FS3194 could be considered specific to 10.6. All other OSX bugs are native to all.
13:40<planetmaker>I'd rather say the trouble started with Bjarni going bye bye...
13:41<ashb>and an SDL port would be much easier to maintain, no?
13:41<planetmaker>ashb: did you look at the list of open bugs?
13:41<ashb>no. i was just idly wondering
13:41<planetmaker>http://bugs.openttd.org/?string=OSX
13:41<planetmaker>they don't really look like SDL would solve any of them
13:41<ashb>first one it does
13:42<ashb>no?
13:42<planetmaker>dunno.
13:43<planetmaker>I just remember though, the pain to get SDL installed on my machine in the first place :-)
13:43<ashb>download a dmg isn't it?
13:43<planetmaker>I had to wait for an SDL update
13:43<planetmaker>no, wasn't it.
13:44<planetmaker>sudo port sdllib install
13:44<ashb>also bundle it in the .app and no one but devs have to install it
13:44<planetmaker>the dmg failed horribly
13:44<ashb>eugh. macports is full of fail
13:44<@Rubidium>ashb: that would still require a maintainer to see whether the bug is in OpenTTD or in SDL
13:44<ashb>Rubidium: sure, but it also means much less osx specific code
13:45<@peter1138>let's drop all non-sdl targets :D
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r18657 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 174 changes by burgerd
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 10 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 7 changes by Zhygometh
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: swedish - 32 changes by Landrash
13:46<PeterT>Aw, nothing interesting
13:46<andythenorth>PeterT: depends if you speak Afrikaans, no?
13:46<planetmaker>let's see whether I get it compiled with SDL only...
13:46<planetmaker>--with-sdl --disable-cocoa-quartz --disable-cocoa-quickdraw
13:47<PeterT>Wat praat jy oor?
13:47<ashb>planetmaker: fwif the way i'd suggest doing it 'properly' is with using sdl as a framework
13:48<planetmaker>yes?
13:48<ashb>as in a .framework
13:48<ashb>as those are easier to embed in an app
13:48<Terkhen>the croatian translator has an interesting nick
13:48<planetmaker>yes indeed they are
13:49<planetmaker>psst, don't speaketh that name!
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13:49<planetmaker>ashb: but then it will require to have SDL installed as a framework... wich might pose problems in itself.
13:50<ashb>no you can put that inside hte .app which gets distributed
13:50<ashb>& gah family arrived
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13:50<+glx>and we're back to need universal build of that lib
13:50<planetmaker>universal libs... how 'nice'
13:51<_ln>glx: universally-built SDL frameworks are available at libsdl.org... (dunno what versions exactly do they support)
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13:52<_ln>anyway, let's just wait a while while planetmaker builds the OSX version against SDL, and let's hear his report then.
13:53<planetmaker>well... there's no easy way to completely disable cocoa...
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13:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18658 /trunk/src/lang/ (42 files): -Fix [FS#3443]: wrong strings drawn for cargo subtype in vehicle details
13:58<@Rubidium>ashb: don't forget midi playback
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14:00<planetmaker>right. It compiles, it works. But nice is something else:
14:00<planetmaker>dbg: [driver] Setting video mode failed, falling back to 640x480 windowed mode.
14:00<planetmaker>2009-12-29 19:59:30.919 openttd[31007:8f0b] *** __NSAutoreleaseNoPool(): Object 0x114bd30e0 of class NSWindowGraphicsContext autoreleased with no pool in place - just leaking
14:00<planetmaker>and zillions of those. And the colours are fucked up
14:01<@Rubidium>planetmaker: so it works 'just fine'
14:01<planetmaker>:-P
14:01<planetmaker>I feel somehow quoted...
14:02<@Rubidium>hmm... differently, it solves FS#3194 because it's not flickering with the wrong colour, but just the wrong colour
14:02<planetmaker>dunno. I'll try a screenshot. Looks... interesting. Blue is over-emphasized.
14:03<planetmaker>everything in a snowy-blue-ish look
14:03<Alberth>'deep blue'
14:03<@Rubidium>oh, so the AI must be very good
14:03-!-Grelouk [~Grelouk@133.160.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #openttd
14:03<planetmaker>hm?
14:04<Alberth>http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue
14:04-!-Guest1012 [~Terkhen@171.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:04<Alberth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_%28chess_computer%29
14:04<planetmaker>hehe
14:06<planetmaker>should I attach the screenshot to FS#3194 or make a separate issue?
14:06<@Rubidium>well.. it's an SDL issue?
14:06<@Rubidium>make it a separate one
14:07<@Rubidium>[OSX+SDL] ...
14:07<@Rubidium>then I can easily link that when they 'again' propose to go to SDL
14:07<planetmaker>ok
14:07<planetmaker>colour is not the only one. The window resize box also leaves smears / glitches
14:08<@Rubidium>so SDL isn't that unified across platforms as it's supposed to be... OR ... it's just plain old buggy on OSX
14:09<planetmaker>hm... it looks similar to the resizing issue I once reported on my linux box. Not the same, but the smear is also limited to a certain x-extend of the window
14:09-!-Grelouk_ [~Grelouk@79.88.159.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:09<planetmaker>and only appears above a certain y-size.
14:10-!-Polygon [~Poly@81.163.34.45] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:10<andythenorth>planetmaker: umm....your changes to the parameters broke FIRS :o
14:11<andythenorth>now incompatible with NARS 2
14:12<andythenorth>at least I think it's your changes :D
14:12<andythenorth>could be me
14:12<planetmaker>I think it was before.
14:12<andythenorth>I'll go read the code
14:12<planetmaker>at least for certain parameters of NARS
14:13<andythenorth>I played my last game with NARS 2, no parameters
14:13<andythenorth>I think
14:13<planetmaker>:S
14:16<planetmaker>Nice. I got an assertion upon closing OpenTTD
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14:34<_ln>just remember that any of those problems encountered by planetmaker is not "our" problem, but the SDL guys'.
14:34<_ln>after the principle suggested earlier
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14:36<Elessar>Hello.
14:37<Elessar>I saw an option to allow to corrupt municipalities.
14:37<Elessar>How does that actually work, is it by paying promotion campaigns?
14:38<planetmaker>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3447 <-- for all OSX+SDL freaks out there :-)
14:38<Elessar>In fact I have a city that is denying me to build a station.
14:38-!-a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: a1270]
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14:40<_ln>planetmaker: you could paste that link privately to mr. koda.
14:41<planetmaker>well, he left. But he'll come back and anyone can now point him there.
14:41<@Rubidium>planetmaker: hmm, it's even quite a bit worse than I thought
14:41<planetmaker>He could as well have tested it...
14:42<@Rubidium>the crash.log shows quite well that it's crashing in SDL
14:42-!-a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd
14:42<planetmaker>Rubidium: yeah... the crash bugs me. Happens only from ingame. And the debug says it's leaking memory like hell, if I understand that correctly
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14:45<planetmaker>he... I didn't reset my graphics set from the last testing ;-)
14:45<Wolf01>hello!
14:45<planetmaker>holla!
14:46<@peter1138>success then
14:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: orudge * r18659 /trunk/os/windows/installer/install.nsi: -Fix: Some minor language corrections in installer
14:48<Wolf01>gah.. 27 pages of topic subscriptions in the forum...
14:49<welshdragon>:o
14:49<welshdragon>orudge just made a commit!
14:49<@orudge>It has been known to happen
14:49<planetmaker>2nd one in 24 hours
14:50<welshdragon>...really?
14:50<Wolf01>@site admin: is possible to fix that nasty bug with the hg rss? it always append :8084 to the address and the link does not work
14:50<@orudge>welshdragon: once every few months, indeed
14:50<planetmaker>check the logs, welshdragon :-)
14:50<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/serversort.diff < evil?
14:51<@Rubidium>Wolf01: file a bug report at https://secure.openttd.org/bugs/newtask/proj4 (that is for the 'website' project, not the main OpenTTD thing)
14:51<planetmaker>hehe @ peter1138
14:51<planetmaker>But it wouldn't change much, I think
14:52<planetmaker>people would then call their server §aaaaaanother cool server" or so
14:54<@peter1138>possibly true
14:57-!-luk3Z [~chatzilla@adpv107.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd
14:57<@Belugas>would still be better than the stupidity currentyl available...
14:57<luk3Z>hello all
14:57<@Belugas>hello luk3Z
14:57<planetmaker>well, it's probably worth the surprise :-)
14:57<planetmaker>salut luk3Z
14:58<planetmaker>peter1138: better (but much more work): make it an option. Disabled by default. Then the sensible people can enjoy it :-)
15:00<@Belugas>ENABLED by default...
15:00<@Belugas>NO OPTIONS!!!!
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15:03<Alberth>nah, you want 1/2 of the players to use the option and 1/2 of the players not to use the option. Perhaps use a different sorting based on the name of the player? :p
15:04<planetmaker>hehe. No, rather a cfg only option. Then most won't notice.
15:04<@peter1138>planetmaker, good idea ;)
15:04-!-josh [~josh@94-194-62-217.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
15:05<@Rubidium>why not a cfg only option to just not show those servers at all?
15:05<planetmaker>:-)
15:05-!-josh is now known as Guest1017
15:05<planetmaker>well... it wouldn't show #openttdcoop ;-)
15:06<planetmaker>I don't mind the sorting, but that's our name
15:06<planetmaker>going by client count by default is the best, though IMO
15:06<Guest1017>hello all :)
15:06-!-Guest1017 is now known as joshy
15:06-!-joshy is now known as darkmonkey
15:07<darkmonkey>argh
15:07<Alberth>not sure whether 'all' is here, but hello
15:07<luk3Z>hello Guest1017
15:07<darkmonkey>^_^
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15:08<darkmonkey>i found openttd recently (1.0 beta) and must say it's very very awesome
15:08<_ln>thanks to Chris Sawyer
15:09<darkmonkey>yup - i always loved rct as well
15:09-!-luk3Z [~chatzilla@adpv107.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd
15:09<luk3Z>wrong command & quit accidently ;)
15:10<darkmonkey>i haven't had chance to trawl through the bug tracker but - my trains occasionally stop at stations and refuse to move after that - despite having no 'wait for full load' or signals stopping them
15:10<darkmonkey>is that a bug or just..gameplay?
15:11<planetmaker>do they still load?
15:11<planetmaker>e.g. is cargo slowly tickling into the station?
15:11<darkmonkey>no, no cargo
15:12<darkmonkey>on a station which had oil and then the oil wells disappeared
15:12<darkmonkey>disappeared when the train was en-route
15:12<darkmonkey>i could understand if it was waiting for a load but i specifically told it to go somewhere else and ignore the signals
15:14<Alberth>you have a save game?
15:14<Alberth>you may want to post it at the general openttd forum
15:15<Alberth>you were not playing with time tables by accident?
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15:21<darkmonkey>Alberth no save game and no timetables - was the first time i played openttd and was just getting to grips with it
15:21<darkmonkey>if i can replicate it i will save and post
15:21<luk3Z>does OpenSFX working with OTTD 0.7.5 ?
15:22<Alberth>darkmonkey: that's usually the simplest approach. Explaining in text is difficult, with a save game you'll get quick response
15:22<Alberth>luk3Z: nope
15:22<luk3Z>i saw 0.8.0 in readme but I want to know anyway :P
15:22<darkmonkey>Alberth yea, thanks. i know as much and should have saved really :>
15:22<Alberth>darkmonkey: there are also autosaves
15:23<darkmonkey>i had never saved the game (fresh install) so where would it have put them?
15:23<Alberth>in save/autosave at my system. Maybe you have an old version
15:24<darkmonkey>i have latest 1.0.0 beta
15:24<Alberth>depends on your config. simplest way is to start a game, and save :)
15:25<darkmonkey>ok will look into it, cheers
15:25<Alberth>alternatively, look for .sav files
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15:26<darkmonkey>also, other q: is there anywhere which gives best practise advice on building busy railways? i understand the signals (to an extent) but i will end up with lots of trains queuing for track space
15:27<darkmonkey>wiki is very helpful in teaching basics but not ^
15:28<@Belugas>forums too
15:28<@Belugas>lots of answers there
15:29<@Belugas>yeah... you have to search by yourself ;)
15:29<darkmonkey>i did search, didn't find anything
15:30<darkmonkey>well, didn't find anything too helpful
15:30<darkmonkey>i will play around and hope for the best
15:30<darkmonkey>all part of the fun
15:31<Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/search.php?keywords=track+design oh?
15:31-!-Chrill [~chrischri@80.216.60.117] has joined #openttd
15:31<planetmaker>or look at the coop wiki
15:32<planetmaker></shameless plug>
15:32<@peter1138>only if you want silly layout s;p
15:32<planetmaker>:-P
15:32<darkmonkey>tas
15:32<darkmonkey>ta*
15:32-!-Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d199-126-251-5.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
15:32<darkmonkey>Alberth - slightly useful but nothing definitive
15:33<darkmonkey>my query, abstractly, is - is there anywhere other than the wiki that has 'tutorials'?
15:33<Alberth>I don't think there is anything definitive
15:33<darkmonkey>ok, thanks :)
15:33<Alberth>there are several different playing styles
15:34<darkmonkey>oki, ta
15:34<SpComb^>darkmonkey: http://uwe.s2000.ws/ttdx/network/index.php?lang=en
15:34<darkmonkey>i will play some more and work it out =]
15:34<darkmonkey>thanks SpComb^
15:34<SpComb^>I'm fairly sure there are some other random guides as well
15:35-!-gathers [~gathers@c80-216-141-218.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
15:35<darkmonkey>thanks, that looks very helpful, SpComb^ ^_^
15:36<SpComb^>I've seen a better one, though
15:37<Alberth>Imho discovering how to do things is all part of the fun. If you are stuck, post a question about something specific, and I am sure you'll get useful answers.
15:37<darkmonkey>yea, i agree to an extent
15:37<darkmonkey>just looking for a push in the right direction
15:37<Wolf01>I must go now, I don't think I'll be here for the 1th day of 2010, so I wish you a happy new year :)
15:38<Alberth>goodbye Wolf01
15:38-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host101-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
15:39<Alberth>you can download a few save games, and have a look how other do things.
15:39<Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=59
15:39<darkmonkey>thanks :-)
15:39<darkmonkey>the community around openttd seems to be very good
15:39<darkmonkey>the wikis are the best i've seen for opensource projects
15:40<Zuu>Nice, 200 line long squirrel function to rearange airplanes to a new set of pairs (given from tabu search). Now, let see how many errors it contains. :-)
15:40<Alberth>for new users it is not so good imho. Problem is there are not many newbie users that write wiki
15:41<darkmonkey>true - but for instance the timetabling tutorial is very clear
15:41<Alberth>yes, the more advanced stuff is quite good
15:42<darkmonkey>in rollercoaster tycoon 2 when building coasters or paths etc, you could set a starting piece and then click the direction arrows to make a new block (rather than dragging on openttd or piece by piece)
15:43<darkmonkey>are there any plans to do something like this in openttd?
15:43<Zuu>There has been suggestions and I think TTDPatch might have something like that.
15:43<Zuu>But at the scale of OpenTTD I don't really see me wanting to click that many times.
15:44-!-Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF995E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
15:44<darkmonkey>ah cool. can ttdpatch be used with openttd then? from the forums i got the impression ttdpatch was for the original TTD not openTTD
15:44<Zuu>Then it is just easier to drag out the rails.
15:44<darkmonkey>oh, true, Zuu, true
15:44<Zuu>TTDPatch can be used with TTD.
15:44<darkmonkey>with openTTD too?
15:45<Zuu>No, it uses the original data from TTD.
15:45<Zuu>Either you use the TTDPatch excutable file or the OpenTTD excutable file.
15:46<darkmonkey>ah ok, thanks
15:46<Alberth>darkmonkey: ask Gremnon: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=45630&p=827205&hilit=nested+widgets+example#p827205
15:46<Alberth>I don't think it is a good idea btw
15:47<darkmonkey>ok - thanks. having thought about the scale of openttd i realise it's probably not either
15:49<Alberth>rail tracks are much less complicated to lay down than a curvy rct track :p
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>yay snow!
15:49<darkmonkey>indeed
15:51-!-Yexo [~Yexo@38-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd
15:52<darkmonkey>bck in a bit, thanks for your help guys =]
15:52-!-darkmonkey is now known as dm`afk
15:52<Yexo>hello
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15:56<luk3Z>hello Yexo
15:56<planetmaker>moin Yexo
16:22<sleejer>can i ask a gameplay related question here?
16:22<jonty-comp>it depends whether we know the answer or not
16:24<Yexo>sleejer: ask away
16:27<eQualizer>Any luck finding any OSX developer?
16:29<Yexo>as far as I'm aware not
16:34-!-LordAro [~LordAro@88-110-181-83.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd
16:35<_ln>not having an OS X developer has been like the topic of the day here
16:39<planetmaker>:-)
16:39-!-Grelouk [~Grelouk@133.160.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
16:40<Sacro>heh
16:40<Sacro>i have osx
16:40<Sacro>and can slightly code
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16:44<sleejer>sorry phone just rang when i was going to ask
16:44<sleejer>I have a train with oil tankers and goods vans that loads oil and unloads goods in station A, and vice versa in station B
16:45<sleejer>However, in station A (which doesn't accept goods), the train loads the goods again and i don't want that to happen
16:45<sleejer>Which orders should i give to prevent this?
16:45-!-asilv [~asilvio@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe9afa00-232.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit []
16:45<@Rubidium>you want to unload a cargo that isn't accepted and load another cargo at the same time? That's not going to work
16:46<sleejer>k thank you
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16:47<planetmaker>you could kinda trick around that by making two adjacent stations. One where you transfer, the other where you pickup
16:47<planetmaker>but whether that's nice or ugly is quite subjective
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16:51<vittorio>_ln actually the topics of the day has been how osx suck and what a burden we have supporting it :D
16:53-!-vittorio is now known as koda
16:54<sparr>i'll take OSX over windows, for usage AND development, any day
16:55<@Rubidium>good luck with maintaining the OS X port then :)
16:55<@Rubidium>I'll rather support Windows with it's interesting differences than OS X
16:58<koda>i wouldn't call them "interesting" but i guess it's a development choice
17:00<@Rubidium>koda: the difference between Korean, Chinese and 'the rest' w.r.t. handling font names/paths is interesting :)
17:00<@Rubidium>making OpenTTD not compile anymore *each* and *every* major release of Apple stops to be interesting quite fast
17:04<@Rubidium>and it's quite nice that with a small amount of effort you can support a 15 year old OS, whereas you simply cannot support Mac OS X 10.3.8, which is less than 5 years old
17:05-!-sleejer [sleejer@d51536A82.access.telenet.be] has quit []
17:05<koda>security concerns apart, that statement might be true for some windows user who is still under win98 but 99,9% of macos users are on 10.4 onwards
17:05<@Rubidium>and I've had more fun figuring out bugs in Windows than bugs in OS X
17:09*Belugas goes home. He had enough stupidity for a day
17:09<@Belugas>bye all
17:10<koda>we won't me you
17:10<@Rubidium>night Belugas
17:10<koda>miss*
17:10<Terkhen>good bye Belugas
17:12<@Rubidium>there are probably less people with Mac OS X Snow Leopard downloading OpenTTD than people with Win9x downloading OpenTTD
17:12<@Rubidium>and panther seems to be used by ~1.3%
17:13<koda>... well go on with that attitude towards mac users and you'll see an even lower percentage :)
17:13<PeterT>Rubidium: Where are you getting these stats from?
17:15*Belugas realized he forgot his headphones while out of the building. koda, the "stupidity" stuff was not sent toward you, if ever you felt like it...
17:15*Belugas is gone for good
17:16<_ln>koda: did you see planetmaker's bug report?
17:17<koda>yes i took note of the fullscreen glitch and of the mouse issue
17:17<_ln>koda: no, i meant this one: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3447
17:18-!-ecke [~ecke@211.143.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ecke]
17:19<koda>oh that's something interesting
17:20<_ln>so there we go with cross-platform libraries and their painlessness
17:20<koda>i didn't say they were painless, just easier to mantain among platforms
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17:28<@Rubidium>koda: the problem I have with Mac users, at least the ones that voice their anger w.r.t. our decision to not officially support the port anymore, is that they assume that Mac OS X support is easy and way less work than platform X yet for OpenTTD it seems to be completely the opposite world
17:29<@Rubidium>and their solution usually is: oh, just give an existing developer a Mac and the problems solves itself magically
17:30-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.222.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:30<@Rubidium>but it requires the developer getting the Mac to be interesting in going through the hassle of learning the Mac API and figuring out what can be used and in what way
17:30<@Rubidium>and that's what takes a ginormous amount of time
17:31<_ln>but it's free software, it should magically fix itself
17:31<@Rubidium>time I myself rather invest in other things, but then 'my' attitude becomes hostile towards the Mac users because I do not fix the port their are interested in
17:32<@Rubidium>but in the same way you can 'map' that attitude to all Mac users because they can't be bothered to fix the bugs
17:33<_ln>some of them can't, because it would result in a kick
17:33<@Rubidium>and don't come with the argument that Mac users can't code, because it's just something that can be learnt as long as you are willing to put the effort into it
17:35<koda>your point is sensible
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17:36<vittorio>but in order to get help, you should also give help
17:36-!-vittorio is now known as koda
17:36<@Rubidium>well, what can I do?
17:37<koda>and since i showed up yesterday i've been hearing pointless accuses about how osx sucks and how my build system is broken
17:38<Yexo>koda: best way to prove those accusations wrong is by providing a patch fixing a bug
17:38<@Rubidium>koda: any idea where my accusations of OS X sucking are based on?
17:38-!-HackaLittleBit [~Hans@87.196.32.140] has joined #openttd
17:39<koda>Rubidium: that was not referred to you, you're the one who actually started making sense
17:39<koda>Yexo: i can't decrypt a 20000 lines program without developers help
17:39<Yexo>you're at the right place to ask for help here
17:40<+glx>MSDN is way better than OSX API documentation :)
17:40-!-FelipeMcMont [~mcmont@187.59.118.137] has quit []
17:41*SpComb^ buries glx underground
17:41<koda>glx that statement is wrong on so many levels that you can't expect anyone to actually believe you're being serios
17:42<@Rubidium>koda: hmm, then I'm unbelievable too
17:43<@Rubidium>but okay, that's my personal opinion on finding a method to determine what font would be best for a given language
17:44<koda>you can say that you don't like objc, but stating that msdn has a nice documentation is like saying windows me is a powerful and secure operating system
17:44-!-HackaBit [~Hans@87.196.32.140] has joined #openttd
17:44<+glx>I have no problems with objc
17:45<+glx>it's just a language
17:45<koda>anyways we're way off topic
17:45<koda>and i think that we just had a bad start
17:45<+glx>I just say finding the function I need is easier in MSDN than in OSX doc
17:46<koda>yeah option double click on the function to open it in the documentation is much slower than copying the function, open the browser and paste it msdn search engine...
17:47<koda>but that's personal taste
17:47<sparr>glx: finding the function, yes. finding accurate documentation of what it does or how it works? no chance in hell.
17:48<sparr>if HALF of the information in MSDN is accurate (and not just "usually right") i would be amazed
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17:50<@Rubidium>yup, it's all personal taste. I rather find some dodgy information than no information at all :)
17:53<Terkhen>I have been using MSDN a lot lately... I'm thankul that the documentation is good: the functions are confusing enough
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18:04<sparr>why would high station spread make the game run slower (as it warns in the gui)?
18:05<sparr>Rubidium: five years from now when i have to support your code, I would rather you have spent twice as long finding the right information than have used dodgy information at all.
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18:05<@Rubidium>because houses/industries need to search further to find out there is no station that will take their cargo
18:05<sparr>thorough-but-wrong documentation from MS regarding MS technologies are the reason for the majority of software issues in the world today
18:06<sparr>why do they need to search further? station spread affects placement, not reach
18:06<sparr>that is, no matter what you set station spread to, no station tile reaches houses more than [intercontinental airport range] away
18:06<+glx>the warning has been removed IIRC
18:06<@Rubidium>because with a 64 station spread the closest tile might be ~30 tiles away, which it still falls within the reach of the station
18:07<sparr>no?
18:07<@Rubidium>with a 8 tile spread it's at most 3 tiles
18:07<sparr>you are mixing up station coverage with station spread
18:07<+glx>hmm it's still there indeed, but when it was added station spread was not cached
18:08<+glx>sparr: they are related
18:08<sparr>a house has to search 12 tiles away because that's the range of an intercontinental airport, regardless of what station spread is set to
18:08<sparr>(i think its 12)
18:09<sparr>if the nearest station to a house is 13 tiles away, it will not be supplied or taken from, regardless of what station spread is set to
18:09<+glx>take a station consisting of 2 bus stops at opposite corners of the max spread
18:09<sparr>ok
18:10<+glx>coverage includes all tiles in between
18:10<sparr>err, no?
18:10<sparr>not as indicated in the documentation, the wiki, or on the coverage gui
18:10<sparr>coverage includes all tiles within 4 tiles of either of the two bus stops
18:10<+glx>coverage is a square containing coverage of all parts of the station
18:11<sparr>i believe that to be incorrect, and am going to check. brb
18:12<sparr>i find that you are correct... and that every source of information on the subject is wrong
18:13<sparr>that is an amazingly useful piece of information that no person i have discussed station walk with has ever possessed
18:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r18660 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Cleanup: remove useless function
18:14<sparr>so with spread 12, two bus stops of nominal 9x9 coverage can cover every tile in a 20x20 swuare
18:15<Yexo>that's only for delivery of cargo, the houses in between the stops don't supply cargo to the station
18:16<Yexo>and I'm sure it's mentioned in several forum topics
18:16<sparr>Yexo: that is both confusing and enlightening
18:16<sparr>"mentioned in several forum topics" != documented
18:16<Yexo>but there is indeed a lot of wrong information about the topic
18:16<Yexo>true :)
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18:18<sparr>so coverage for 'accepts' is the whole square, while coverage for 'produces' is just the coverage of the individual station tiles
18:18<Yexo>that'
18:18<Yexo>that's correct
18:18<sparr>that seems like silly design, why?
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18:19<Yexo>probably speed
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18:19<sparr>err, i would *expect* both ways to use the faster method
18:19<Yexo>for 'accepts' you search from the station, so it's faster to search the whole square then to check each tile
18:19<+glx>and source of cargo
18:19<sparr>why do the whole-box search at all?
18:20<Yexo>for 'produces' you search from the house/industry, so it's faster to check if a single station tile is in range
18:20<sparr>that is very counter-intuitive
18:21<+glx>because it's easier to store a big box than an union of small boxes
18:21<_ln>planetmaker: why does your SDL bug report block the "hopelessly outdated" bug?
18:21<sparr>meh
18:21<sparr>good to know, but doesn't much alter my gameplay style
18:21<sparr>although I will be sure to exploit it in a coop game at some point just to confuse people :)
18:22<sparr>"how the hell does he have coverage at that industry in the middle of the lake??"
18:24<Yexo>extra fun when playing with invisible station tiles :p
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18:27<_ln>the "hopelessly outdated" bug depends on only three other open bugs that are real bugs.
18:28<_ln>three bugs = hopelessly outdated? ... or is there something essential missing?
18:28<Yexo>the hopelessly outdated bug just depends on all osx specific bugs currently
18:29<_ln>so i've been told, but if the count is really down to three, is it hopelessly outdated anymore?
18:29<Yexo>FS#3447- sdl port unusable, FS#3194-full screen glitch
18:30<Yexo>both seem pretty major problems
18:30<_ln>Yexo: FS#3447 is completely un-major and irrelevant, as the OSX port doesn't use SDL at all by default.
18:31<Yexo>ok, still leaves the other one
18:31<Yexo>and FS#2585 can be annoying
18:32<_ln>agreed, the full screen glitch is a real bug, as well as 2585.
18:33-!-andythenorth [~andy@87.115.77.134] has joined #openttd
18:34<_ln>which reminds me... i think the fullscreen and windowed mode use completely different implementations for drawing.
18:35<_ln>the one for windowed being more elegant, and it could be used for fullscreen too. but was not chosen for fullscreen use due to performance reasons.
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18:37<_ln>the side effect of the current fullscreen code is that OTTD gets complete control of the keyboard and mouse, and there's no way to exit the game if it e.g. halted for some reason.
18:37<_ln>with the alternative way one could apple-tab easily out of the fullscreen application.
18:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r18661 /trunk/src/airport_movement.h: -Fix [FS#3169]: aircraft on the metropolitan airport took a long route to the closest loading pad
18:41<Terkhen>good night
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18:46<HackaBit>Am I allowed to talk about some doubts that I have with a line of code in CheckTrainCollision :)
18:47<HackaBit>Or is there somebody willing to talk about it?
18:47<@Rubidium>well, seems you are willing to talk about it
18:48<HackaBit>thanks
18:48<HackaBit>it is this line:assert(v->track == TRACK_BIT_WORMHOLE || TileVirtXY(v->x_pos, v->y_pos) == v->tile);
18:48<_ln>Rubidium: do you still have me on ignore?
18:48<@Rubidium>that seems fine to me
18:49<HackaBit>when train enters tunnel v->tille is not yet assigned
18:49<HackaBit>only some fraction coordinates later
18:50<HackaBit>question why does assert not trigger
18:51<andythenorth>time for bed....one thing: it's been emotional ;)
18:51<andythenorth>good night
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18:52<@Rubidium>HackaBit: probably because v->tile gets assigned in the caller of that function
18:53<@Rubidium>i.e. TrainController
18:56<HackaBit>as far as I can see it is only assigned in _tunnel_fractcoord_2[dir]
18:56<HackaBit>tunnel_bridge_cmd
18:58<HackaBit>I was testing rubidiium and only on very rare ocasions it triggers not reproducable for me
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19:04<dragonhorseboy>any of you play with the ukrs trains? just curious
19:09<Zuu>I usually go for ukrs when I use a train grf.
19:10<dragonhorseboy>heh what year you usually start in?
19:12<Zuu>1950
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19:12<dragonhorseboy>ah .. steam coming close to end and just one experimental diesel? :)
19:12<Zuu>If I play myself. If I use/test PAXLink I usually start after 1955 since it does not yet handle upgrading airports.
19:13<Zuu>But then ukrs is irrelevant for testing PAXLink.
19:13<dragonhorseboy>well I've always used the 0-8-0 freight quite too liberally (but so does other as it would seem lol) ...
19:15<dragonhorseboy>sorta find the 4-4-0 express ok but it seem a bit too lightfooted (one carriage truck and two coaches and then even yet it has problem when it hits many slopes)
19:15<dragonhorseboy>the A4 just doesn't seem to be as useable as it can be .. would be nice if it could pull five coaches at steady speed but eh
19:16<dragonhorseboy>you got any particular ukrs steamer you like or no?
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19:20<Zuu>It was too long since I played to remember a specific engine.
19:20<Zuu>played with ukrs*
19:23<Zuu>If you shade the economy window and then press the button to change it to the small version, then the size of the shaded window does not change. Only when you un-shade it it will change to the small economy window.
19:27<Yexo>Zuu: please open a bug report for alberth, otherwise it's forgotten tomorrow
19:27<Zuu>Indeed, I just did hit submit on the bug report
19:27<Zuu>I did put it as servity "very low".
19:29<dragonhorseboy>well I usually play with dbsetxl/japanset on my own anyhow .. oh and usually in the 1930's
19:30<Yexo>thanks Zuu
19:31<Zuu>Time for me to go to bed. PAXLink makes some kind of re-arangement of airplanes to new optimized routes, but several parts of the code needs thought testing to iron out bugs and complete some missing part in the logic.
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19:37<Eddi|zuHause>1930s are the beatuiful steamers in the dbset ;)
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>especially with daylength that's the best era to play in ;)
19:39<dragonhorseboy>eddi .. lol well I only picked it because thats an easy time to start short network .. what with everything only at like 39-70km/h for example you know ;)
19:39<+tokai>1930 steamer designs were very cool, indeed. especially those with the streamline look
19:39<dragonhorseboy>and by the time the modern mainline power really shows up well I've got the many routes and some $ to already support them
19:40<dragonhorseboy>tokai.. I liked the BR01 in real (but rarely use it much at all in dbsetxl .. together with other steamers .. just something odd about their price to performance even)
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19:40<dragonhorseboy>there used to be one surviving mainline one but its finally sidelined now .. and I still don't think it'll ever run again
19:41<+tokai>hmm.. what was the name of the very fast german one (late 1930s I thin) which had a propeller at the back?
19:41<+tokai>it never went out of prototype state, I think
19:42<+tokai>Had a cool name; if I just could remember it right now:)
19:43<+tokai>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schienenzeppelin <- that's the one:)
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19:43<+tokai>do we have this in OpenTTD? :)
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>if you make it into a grf ;)
19:46-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1EEF5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:47<dragonhorseboy>:)
19:47<+tokai>Does OpenTTD support such single 'block' trains? I mean you can't attach any wagons to it:) And can those GRFs be animated too (for the propeller) ? :)
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>there's both a "can wagons be attached" and "animation frame" callbacks
19:51<+tokai>sounds doable then :)
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19:59<_ln>i wish to register a complaint
20:00<zar>"can wagons be attacked"
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20:00<zar>i wish to learn to read :)
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20:24<Eddi|zuHause>not everybody gets what he wishes for ;)
20:24<PeterT>zar: bit too late for christmas
20:25<PeterT>great, it's set up
20:25<PeterT>sorry, wrong box
20:27-!-Luukland [~Luukland@s559031d6.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
20:28<Luukland>Can someone tell me if it is possible to make a NEWGRF out of a DIFF?
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>Luukland: i doubt that
20:30<Luukland>I have a DIFF here which is only like 20 lines, that is it :P
20:32-!-SirSquidness [~sirsquidn@vps.sirsquidness.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:32<Yexo>Luukland: first try and understand what a diff file actually is
20:32<Yexo>then try and understand what a newgrf file is
20:32<Yexo>then you'll have the answer to your question
20:33<Luukland>Hmmm that would take me 20 mins at least, or you just gimme a plain answer >_<
20:33<Luukland>Its always when I ask a YES/NO question here you guys give crap answers >_< BAH
20:33<Luukland>I am tired, I should cooldown...
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20:34<Eddi|zuHause>what did he dislike about my answer?
20:34<Eddi|zuHause>that's as close to a "no" as you get ;)
20:35<Eddi|zuHause>he should be lucky that he got an answer at all at this time :p
20:37<Yexo>next time I'll just tell him no, no matter what the question is
20:37<Yexo>then at least he has a yes/no answer
20:37<PeterT>even I could assume that a diff file shows differences
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20:46<Eddi|zuHause>so... something daylengthy for cargodist...
20:47<PeterT>yes, me and spcomb^ have been working on that... :-)
20:47<PeterT>well, he works, I just provide binaires
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>what do i care for binaries of an esoteric operating system...
20:51<PeterT>esoteric?
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21:04<ajmiles>can someone tell me why receiving industries sometimes need more than 1 tile overlap with the catchment area whereas producing industries don't?
21:04<ajmiles>bit of a strange game mechanic to have
21:04<ajmiles>it isn't even consistent with the different industries
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21:09<Eddi|zuHause>well, that's how it works... use the query tool to find out which tiles accept something
21:11<ajmiles>but why does it work that why?
21:11<ajmiles>or is it just a case of "the original did it, so we do too" ?
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21:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it worked like this in the original game, too
21:21<Eddi|zuHause>and nobody has the intention to change that
21:23<CIA-1>OpenTTD: orudge * r18662 /trunk/os/os2/installer/ (9 files): -Feature: Add WarpIN-based installer for OS/2
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21:24<ashb>people still run OS/2?
21:24<@orudge>yep
21:24<ashb>madness
21:25<@orudge>indeed, you can run a fair amount of modern software on it - OpenOffice, Thunderbird, Firefox, OpenTTD, etc :p
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21:29<PeterT>orudge: congrats, you've finished
21:31<PeterT>orudge: where did you download os/2?
21:33<@orudge>www.ecomstation.com
21:33<@orudge>one does however have to pay for it ;)
21:33<@orudge>and I’ve not quite finished, still some things to sort with OpenTTD itself
21:33<@orudge>the installer was just a distraction :p
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21:34<PeterT>eComStation is OS/2?
21:34<@orudge>yes
21:35<PeterT>did you pay for it?
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21:36<@orudge>[20:33:31] <orudge> one does however have to pay for it ;)
21:36<@orudge>so quite
21:36<@orudge>and on that note
21:36<@orudge>I must go and get some food
21:36<PeterT>Well, torrent...
21:36<@orudge>that would be bad.
21:36<@orudge>and torrents smell anyway
21:37<PeterT>ofc
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---Logclosed Wed Dec 30 00:00:19 2009