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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-01-03

---Logopened Sun Jan 03 00:00:24 2010
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04:08<Terkhen>good morning
04:19<andythenorth>morning
04:22<@peter1138>cold=
04:31<Eddi|zuHause>my satellite antenna is snowed in...
04:32<Eddi|zuHause>so my overnight recordings are garbage
04:32<Lachie>fail
04:32<Eddi|zuHause>and now i can't even tune...
04:33<sawtooth>its -20F outside at the moment. I wonder if owen is having 2nd thoughts about his move to Minnesota :)
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04:34<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea how much -20F is...
04:35<SpComb>-22°C here
04:35<SpComb>power even cut out during the night
04:35<sawtooth>-20F is -29C
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04:36<sawtooth>i should really get some sleep though
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04:46<@peter1138>mmm, global warming :D
04:46<SpComb>ofc
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04:52<andythenorth>Terkhen: I think it would be acceptable to change the steel mill color on a grey mini-map background...
04:55<Terkhen>okay, I'll try changing the steel mill and bank colours, I'll post a screenshot when I'm done
04:57<@peter1138>don't
04:57<@peter1138>you have to check for similar colours when drawing
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05:11<Alberth>better yet, make it customizable so everybody can use his own favorite colours
05:12<Luukland>Just remember KISS guys, keep it short & simple
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05:15<Terkhen>customizable standard industry colours or customizable heightmap colours?
05:15<Terkhen>peter1138: you mean a generic check? to not use any colours used in the heightmap?
05:21<planetmaker>good morning
05:21<Terkhen>good morning planetmaker
05:22<planetmaker>concerning the colour choices I like to propose to look at http://colorbrewer2.org/ for possible inspiration
05:22<planetmaker>Those colours even work with my boss ;-)
05:22<planetmaker>E.g. they work well for people with limited colour perception
05:24<@peter1138>Terkhen, i mean that newgrf industries set their own colour, which can conflict too
05:24<planetmaker>he, indeed...
05:27<Terkhen>I could cycle through all industries, mark all of their colours as used, then check the industries that have conflictive colours and assign them an unused colour instead... anyone has a simpler idea?
05:28<Terkhen>I would also need a way of deciding which colour should be assigned, to not make two industries look too much alike
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05:39<planetmaker>Terkhen: "not too much alike": It might be a good idea to use for that end a kind of pre-defined (or a few of those) colour cycles. Using that one with the fewest unused colours.
05:40<@peter1138>hmm... is it possible to do something else, like outline the industries
05:40<planetmaker>hm, nice idea :-)
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05:40<Terkhen>peter1138: I like that :)
05:41<Terkhen>then it only needs a single colour that don't conflicts with the heightmap colours
05:41<planetmaker>like black
05:42<planetmaker>e.g. like the off-map colour
05:42<planetmaker>that can be safely re-used
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05:44<andythenorth>@seen frosch123
05:44<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 13 hours, 3 minutes, and 26 seconds ago: <frosch123> night
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05:54<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=40917&p=845119#p845119
05:54<andythenorth>thoughts?
05:58<andythenorth>Terkhen: greyscale map looks good
05:58<andythenorth>I'd use a much closer range of greys
05:59-!-Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s5591a1ba.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
05:59<andythenorth>are those greys 16 through 23?
05:59<Hyronymus>good morning
05:59<andythenorth>(in dec)
05:59<Hyronymus>question
05:59<Hyronymus>I found a thread about a combined climate experiment
06:00<Hyronymus>was something ever released
06:00<Hyronymus>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=36764
06:00<Terkhen>andythenorth: http://paste.openttd.org/220826
06:00<@Rubidium>if it was in miniin or one of the first ottd gaming day binaries
06:01<andythenorth>Terkhen: which numbers are which in that paste? I could make assumptions, but they're probably wrong :o
06:02<andythenorth>the tuple-like structures look like they contain rgb?
06:02<Terkhen>penultimate row is dec, last one is hex
06:02<Terkhen>yes, I used RGB to order them
06:03<andythenorth>do you need a full 16 greys?
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06:04<Terkhen>yes, otherwise the heightmap would lose detail
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06:04<andythenorth>don't think the detail matters on that map at that size. It's dithered anyway. I'd use 8 colours.
06:04<andythenorth>16-23 from Alberth's chart
06:05<planetmaker>I agree with andy. 8 distinctions should suffice.
06:05<planetmaker>and makes it a hell lot of easier.
06:05<andythenorth>of course, if more height levels made it to trunk....
06:05<andythenorth>but no, let's not worry about that
06:05<planetmaker>^ :-)
06:06<planetmaker>and I still don't understand FIRS disabling NARS2 :-(
06:06<Terkhen>if height levels made it to trunk, it would need the complete palette anyways
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06:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: we need to fix that FIRS issue, NARS 2 is my default testing trainset for FIRS :o
06:06<Hyronymus>never made to miniin
06:09<planetmaker>uhm... andythenorth: it works for me without change...
06:10<planetmaker>NARS2 and FIRS are fine here.
06:10<andythenorth>planetmaker: have you disabled NARS regearing?
06:10<planetmaker>no
06:10<planetmaker>no parameters anywhere
06:11<andythenorth>interesting
06:11<andythenorth>If I set a NARS 2 param, FIRS becomes compatible with it again
06:11<planetmaker>but even with
06:12<andythenorth>even more interesting, I've cleared all params, and everything is now fine
06:12<planetmaker>works both ways for me. For both orders (NARS first, NARS last)
06:12<planetmaker>no other newgrfs.
06:12<planetmaker>Did you have any others? Like ECS town?
06:12<andythenorth>parameters are going to be 'cached' by my newgrf.cfg, right?
06:13<planetmaker>not cached. It sets a flag, if that param is used
06:13<planetmaker>which it later queries and decides to do nothing about :-P
06:13<andythenorth>hmm...well the issue is gone now
06:14<planetmaker>(e.g. regearing is detected as it eats a cargo, but it doesn't modify our cargo translation table, so no action needs taking)
06:14<planetmaker>so... it works for you, too? Then I close the issue
06:14<planetmaker>or... did you have any other newgrf active around that time? By any chance?
06:15<andythenorth>planetmaker: I can reproduce it by setting further NARS parameters
06:15<planetmaker>further? Like which?
06:15<andythenorth>0 7 2 11 0 1 disables FIRS
06:15<Terkhen>adding an outline to the industries is not easy... the smallmap works at tile level, and a tile with outline looks really ugly
06:15<andythenorth>http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=NARS_GRF_Parameters
06:15<planetmaker>let's see, yes I have that page open :-)
06:15<andythenorth>Terkhen: an outline will suck, especially for small industries located in towns
06:16<andythenorth>planetmaker: just set the first param to 0 and FIRS will disable
06:17<andythenorth>maybe that was present before we templated
06:17<andythenorth>maybe we can assign it to FooBar :P
06:17<planetmaker>uhm, no, andythenorth ?
06:18<planetmaker>also your parameter choice as just quoted works here
06:20<andythenorth>planetmaker: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/537/Snapshot_2010-01-03_11-18-21.png
06:20<planetmaker>andy: please disable FISH and try without
06:20<andythenorth>that is in r18694 btw
06:20<planetmaker>it also has a warning.
06:21<Alberth>Terkhen: and when zoomed-out (if we ever get that) it gets worse
06:21<Terkhen>yes... I'm out of nice solutions
06:22<Alberth>I hate it when that happens
06:22<andythenorth>planetmaker: there are so many combinations :(
06:23<andythenorth>the problem is reproducible, but I'm not sure which combinations cause it
06:23<Terkhen>I could just implement an automatic replace of brown industry colours (53-59) to something else
06:23<planetmaker>please just check w/o anything else :-) Just FIRS + NARS2
06:23<Terkhen>but that's just a hack
06:23<Alberth>Terkhen: it would work for you, but not in general
06:24<Noldo>what do those magic browns do anyway?
06:24<andythenorth>planetmaker: I did that. Setting value 2 for NARS param 1 does work
06:24<Alberth>Noldo: Terkhen doesn't like them
06:24<Terkhen>Noldo: they have the magic power of confusing r-g colour blind people
06:24<Noldo>show me, I have that
06:25<planetmaker>andythenorth: that screeny is different, though ;-)
06:25<planetmaker>but I wouldn't understand FISH influence either...
06:25<Terkhen>just open any temperate game and try to find an iron ore mine
06:26<Terkhen>at the smallmap
06:26<planetmaker>can you send me your processed NFO (sprites/firs.nfo)? I'm using r18684)
06:26<andythenorth>I'll pm it through the forum?
06:27<planetmaker>ok
06:27<Terkhen>what about a button at the smallmap to quickly switch from green to another heightmap? I'd still need to find a complete range of colours for the alternate heightmap...
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06:28<Alberth>it sounds like an ad-hoc solution
06:28<andythenorth>Terkhen: I think that would be perfect.
06:28<andythenorth>'sensible defaults' :)
06:28<andythenorth>planetmaker: pm sent
06:28<planetmaker>ty
06:29<andythenorth>Terkhen: try 16-23 :) The green heightmap only uses 7 colours according to Alberth's palette.
06:29<andythenorth>just double them up (2 entries the same) :)
06:30<Alberth>Terkhen: wouldn't you get the same effect by using the 'show height' button, and replacing the plain green colour with another one?
06:30<Alberth>andythenorth: yes, they are dithered
06:30<andythenorth>the dithering looks good
06:30<andythenorth>it's needed
06:31<Alberth>I don't like the vertical stripy effect
06:31<Terkhen>Alberth: that would be enough
06:32<Terkhen>I'm going to try both options
06:32<andythenorth>Alberth: vertical stripes makes it look 'technical' and kind of cool
06:32<andythenorth>we used to stripe web page backgrounds like that 'back in the day'
06:32<Alberth>oh, the '95 look :)
06:35<Noldo>hmm, I can find Iron ore mines, but it takes some concentration
06:35<Noldo>my r-g blindness is somewhat mild though
06:35<Terkhen>mine too, but it is still a pain to search for them
06:36<planetmaker>andythenorth: can you send me a savegame where it doesn't work and the (compiled) newgrfs which it loads?
06:37<planetmaker>the actual tars / grfs from your data dir of that game? Not from your dev / repo dirs?
06:37<planetmaker>I really fail to reproduce it.
06:37<andythenorth>planetmaker: (back in 10 mins)
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06:46<Terkhen>I did not know about dithering, the gray heightmap looks now really good... I could add a configuration option that would let the user select between "green", "gray" and probably other colours
06:46<Terkhen>it would affect both the heightmap and the normal ground colour
06:47<planetmaker>hm, the diff tells me you use the same compatibility code indeed...
06:48<Noldo>hmm, I wonder why openttd won't exit when I select quit from the menu and then yes
06:49<andythenorth>planetmaker: sent you the grfs
06:49<planetmaker>thx. Also savegame?
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06:49<andythenorth>I'll make one
06:49<andythenorth>FIRS just disables when I start a new game
06:51<andythenorth>planetmaker: sent
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06:53<planetmaker>ah, you also set a FIRS parameter!
06:53<andythenorth>planetmaker: still disabled without that param set
06:54<andythenorth>I've cleared all params and have the same issue. want the save?
06:55<planetmaker>yes
06:55<Terkhen>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46586&p=845150#p845150
06:55<andythenorth>planetmaker: sent
06:56<andythenorth>afk for a bit
06:56<andythenorth>Terkhen: looks nice :D
06:56<Yexo>Terkhen: is the last screenshot a flat map or just all heights are the same grey?
06:56<Terkhen>a screenshot with height turned off
06:57<andythenorth>Terkhen: maybe brown would show better on 128-135
06:57<andythenorth>just a thought :D
07:02<Terkhen>I'll try it too... for now I'm going to code this as a configurable option... I'll need to be able to change between colours easily to test properly
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07:08<luk3Z>hello
07:10<luk3Z>I have question to someone who is developer
07:10<planetmaker>andythenorth: please push your changes r416...r419(M)
07:11<planetmaker>I get the error with your grf, but not with the one I can compile / install
07:11<Yexo>luk3Z: as long as you don't ask your real question you won't get an answer to that
07:11<Alberth>not to mention there are lots of different devlopers here
07:12<planetmaker>which is... strange
07:12<Alberth>files are the same?
07:12<Alberth>cmp file1 file2
07:12<luk3Z>it is possible to add variable taxes/cost for building/maintence constructons depend on your city rating ?
07:13<@peter1138>almost anything is possible
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07:13<heffer>luk3Z, i think it would be best if you opened a ticket in the bugtracker, then all the developers can look into it
07:13<luk3Z>and 2nd one: have someone created "traffic" mini map already ?
07:13<Yexo>heffer: no, asking here is fine
07:13<Alberth>I would suggest to post it to the suggestions forum :)
07:14<Yexo>what do you mean with a traffic minimap?
07:14<dragonhorseboy>traffic?
07:14<Alberth>traffic density perhaps?
07:14<heffer>oh i see. the way i use to do this in other Open Source project is to file a bug
07:14<heffer>so the forum is preferred then?
07:14<Yexo>heffer: posting a feature request at the bug tracker is fine, but only if you have a clearly defined feature
07:15<luk3Z>"busy lines" I saw lately grf and grass on threes, so dose it mean that some parameters can indicate traffic on the cracks ?
07:15<Alberth>bug tracker is for the more mature issues
07:15<Yexo>posting it on the forum can help get your idea discussed
07:15<Yexo>no luckz
07:15<Yexo>the grass on tracks grf needs a custom patch to work
07:15<Yexo>and I think it's pretty old
07:15<luk3Z>*grass on the tracks sorry for mistajke
07:16<Alberth>luk3Z: that data is not generated by the program
07:16<dragonhorseboy>yexo I think a better idea might be from one of the patch that was used in the last mini-in build...
07:16<dragonhorseboy>it could tell you how many trains had passed over one piece of rail as I think I recall .. you could simply take that and add to the code so very few trains = time to rust the rails
07:16<Yexo>dragonhorseboy: mini-in = very old
07:17<Yexo>so patches from that don't apply to trunk normally
07:17<dragonhorseboy>yexo..but the features aren't
07:17<dragonhorseboy>and I still have to even see half of the good ones even being actually used yet
07:18<Yexo>true, adding a train counter to waypoints/stations has been discussed some time ago, but I can't remember the details
07:18<luk3Z>I read changelog for 1.0.0b now and I thinking about rerplace OTTD 0.7.5 to 1.0.0b + some sets and start playing/testing
07:18<Yexo>luk3Z: in that case you can update as well to a nightly, since a beta is nothing more then a snapshot from trunk (like a nightly)
07:19<Yexo>and the latest nightly has several bugfixes not in 1.0.0-beta1
07:19<luk3Z>ok thanks for advice I download it soon
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07:22<dragonhorseboy>yexo admittly I do recall some of the features added in were only partially completed and/or just had buggy coding in first place anyway
07:23<dragonhorseboy>one thing that didn't work out so well was diagonal road crossings .. sure it worked fine if the roads were done manually but come to a town and for some reason a lot of the town-built road tiles ended up 90 degree from the actual roads themself (alak not connected)
07:23<Yexo>I never played mini-in, so I can't really comment on that
07:24<dragonhorseboy>well .. it would had been nice for these moments of where there's a lot of slow diagonal rails :P
07:24<@peter1138>alak?
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07:26<dragonhorseboy>yexo one thing I did wonder about tho .. are they ever going to add more airport types again eventually? (especially as I recall pikka drew up a shoreline airport for water-landing planes to use and at least one of the av8 plane had hulls on it)
07:27<Yexo>dragonhorseboy: yes, it's work ni progess by me currently to allow newgrf airports
07:27<dragonhorseboy>nice
07:28<dragonhorseboy>yexo I've always sometimes found the current airports a bit limited for what I actually wanted to do
07:28<dragonhorseboy>and a few times because City was too squarey-big I've had to use the commuter airport and not be able to safely send eg A780's or so there
07:28<dragonhorseboy>so hmm I guess it figured :)
07:29<Yexo>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=45654 forum post
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07:29<Yexo>no real progress the last 2 months, but it's certainly not dead
07:30<dragonhorseboy>yexo btw peter there above ^^ was the one who did freight train multiplier as it would seem
07:30<dragonhorseboy>its in the mini-in features list
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07:32<Alberth>luk3Z: traffic density question: suppose I have a single track with 10 tile blocks. There are 7 trains / month using it. Next to it, there is another single track with 5 tile blocks, used by 8 trains / month. Which one is more busy?
07:32<Alberth>I think the 10 tile track
07:32<Eoin>5?
07:32<Eoin>i would say
07:32<Eoin>but im not awake :D
07:33<Alberth>trains at both tracks have equal length
07:33<Alberth>then the 5 tile track can push about twice as many trains / month I think
07:34<Alberth>ie the 10 tile tile track runs into its limits earlier
07:34<dragonhorseboy>oh yeah yexo I still dunno if it was a nice feature or not but in mini-in there was a subsidiaries where you could eg have company #1 which 'runs' company #2 and company #3 (finances are as if they were independent instead) and could easily merge them back into company #1 any time freely
07:34<Alberth>so how do you measure traffic density?
07:34<dragonhorseboy>or think of it a bit like owning SNCF and also 'managing' FRET .. and if things gets really bad you can merge both back into just SNCF itself
07:35<luk3Z>sorry I read changelog I think it should be sum all tracks div by all trains in month
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07:36<Alberth>tracks are equally long
07:37<Alberth>which would point you to the 5 tile track, thus the wrong one, as I see it
07:37<luk3Z>traffic for 1 tile (monthly): number of trains; traffic for all track (monthly): sum for all tiles/number of tiles
07:38<luk3Z>wait I'll write it more clear
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07:38<Alberth>you agree the 10 tile track is more busy?
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07:40<dennis>hey guys, i've seen 0.7.5C, where to download it?
07:40<luk3Z>TRA_1TIL [traffic for 1 tile (monthly)]: number of trains on 1 tile; TRA_ALL_TIL [traffic for all track (monthly)]: TRA_1TIL+TRA_nTIL+TRA_n+1TIL/x*TRA_nTIL
07:40<dragonhorseboy>yexo did I lost you or no?
07:41<@Rubidium>dennis: that is a really good question, sadly enough I've got no idea
07:41<Yexo>dragonhorseboy: no, sorry, was busy with coding
07:41<luk3Z>10 are busiest becouse of lenght...
07:41<dragonhorseboy>yexo ok no problem ;)
07:41<Yexo>I read about that subsidiaries thing, don't see a reason for it myself
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07:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r18696 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_tile.cpp ai_tile.hpp): -Fix [FS#3404]: AITile::IsCoastTile returned false for coast tiles with trees on them.
07:43<@peter1138>C? heh
07:44<Yexo>dennis: the real question is, where did you see that version?
07:44<dragonhorseboy>yexo well I did keep wishing for a similiar feature tho..especially when coupled with IS2.1.1 ... managing seperate specialized companies that don't have any overlap except for forwarding excessive profits to where its having problems being in the red
07:45<Alberth>luk3Z: number of trains at 1 tile already fails, doesn't it?
07:45<dennis>luukland
07:45<dragonhorseboy>to our own I guess (is it a wonder I named my last two companies after eg LNER+BR etc because of how these should had been splitted companies in first place but I was too lazy to try take up two passworded company slots
07:45<dennis>server 4 i think
07:45<luk3Z>yes but it is example
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07:46<Alberth>luk3Z: the problem is that you need a good formula to compute density, otherwise you point user to the wrong tracks, and they spend their earnings upgrading the wrong track
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07:47<luk3Z>TRA_1TIL is good how you calculate no of trains in 1 tile /
07:47<dragonhorseboy>I just had to check for IS threads and hmm meh this turned up. I really like the maxsize and minspeed ideas :/ http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=90506
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07:47<Eoin>wait
07:47<dragonhorseboy>no cluttered mainlines because someone failed to check before sending several slow trains in
07:48<Eoin>does that airport actually function Yexo
07:48<Eoin>the diagonal one in newairport
07:48<Yexo>yes Eoin
07:48<luk3Z>TRA_ALL_TIL is wrong I try improve it on the paper ;)
07:48<Eoin>oohoo
07:48<Eoin>shiny
07:48<Alberth>luk3Z: sure, but since the length of both tracks is the same, your computation gives the wrong result
07:49<Luukland>Ah yeah this 0.7.5C is mine :P
07:49<Yexo>dragonhorseboy: minspeed doesn't work, because if the engine isn't powerfull enough it'll never reach full speed so it's still slower then minspeed
07:49<Alberth>luk3Z: of course, then you only have to decide how to count density over tracks that split halfway
07:49-!-Hyronymus is now known as Hyr|afk
07:50<luk3Z>you mean your example with trains or may equation ?
07:50<dragonhorseboy>yexo well how about eg a line that is supposed to be for express freights so its set to eg 140km/h minimum and so that way the engines maybe can vary (up to 200km/h even) but noone can send in a slow 76km/h train to stuck up the flow
07:50<Alberth>in the equation. You want correct result at all situations, right?
07:51<luk3Z>Alberth: yes it is wrong anyway
07:51<Alberth>luk3Z: my example was just to show that number of trains means little
07:51<Yexo>dragonhorseboy: how about I send a very fast passengr engine (so low power) with several full coal wagons attached
07:51<Yexo>it'll never reach it's max speed because it isn't powerfull enough
07:51<luk3Z>Alberth: and we have to assume that shorter tracks will be less busy
07:51<dragonhorseboy>yexo you're nuts if you're playing so badly anyway
07:51<dragonhorseboy>;)
07:52<Yexo>dragonhorseboy: that option is a global option, so it doesn't work if you want fast trains on part of your tracks and slow trains are allowed on other parts
07:52<luk3Z>Alberth: and we should skip all breaking down for now
07:52<Eoin>i really like the idea
07:52<dragonhorseboy>yexo well it does if you add in subsidiaries
07:52<Yexo>so what you really need is something like restrictie signalling what ttdpatch has
07:52<Yexo>or waypoint restrictions, there have been a few patches for that in the development forum
07:53<Alberth>luk3Z: shorter blocks may be more busy. If I send 1 train /month over the 10 tile track, the 5 tile track is more busy
07:53<luk3Z>Alberth: this equation is like proov of concept ;)
07:53<Alberth>it is just the first part of the puzzle
07:55<luk3Z>Alberth: yeah we have to think about number of trains and some cases with other tracks from other stations and other trains
07:55<Alberth>then you must try to come up with an idiotic situation that may happen, and the equation should still give the correct result. If you try that for a while, and cannot incent a situation where the equation breaks, you 've got the first step done for the non-break down case.
07:56<dragonhorseboy>company A-1: 6 tiles platforms max, high charges, 150km/h minimum ... company A-2: no max platform, 50km/h minimum (eg to avoid the snail shunter in ukrs etc) .. company A-3: low charges, no platform/speed restrictions
07:56<Alberth>s/incent/invent/
07:56<luk3Z>Alberth: I propose for 1st equation make 2 points A - > B and x trains only
07:56<dragonhorseboy>or setups along that line ;) (A-1 is express and A-2 is freights for the footnote .. A-3 is just basically mixed stuffs or old lines)
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07:57<Yexo>dragonhorseboy: that'd work yes, but then subsidiaries is really a requirement
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07:58<dragonhorseboy>well thats about all I had to say on that ;)
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08:03<luk3Z>Alberth: how minimap can display density of traffic? can it show 1 tile as few pixels on this minimap or something else ?
08:04<Alberth>no idea, but you are 10 steps ahead or so :)
08:04<Alberth>current smallmap uses 4 pixels for each tile
08:04<luk3Z>Alberth: or maybe changing color of the tracks via switch on the normal map mode ?
08:04*PeterT is suprised at how fast MSVC compiles on Windows XP
08:05<luk3Z>Alberth: or even color of the fence :P
08:05<Alberth>oh, 2 tiles for the tracks at a tile. Different colours would be an option
08:05<@Rubidium>it's still way slower than gcc on Linux, minus cross-compiling
08:05<Alberth>see eg the company owners mode
08:06<Terkhen>PeterT: I noticed a slight speedup when I finally moved from Vista to 7, sadly it is still too slow
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08:06<luk3Z>Alberth: I remember it and it looks pretty nice and lear
08:07<PeterT>Terkhen: Vista, I think, is just slow on it's own
08:07<PeterT>I just compiled the 32bpp patch in 3 minutes
08:07<Alberth>luk3Z: first you need a proper formula. then you need to implement it in the game. then you need to have it put into trunk.
08:07<PeterT>that includes patching, setting up directx dirs, compilin
08:07<luk3Z>Alberth: I'm working on it on the paper
08:07<PeterT>true that it is "Creating the browse information file" ATM
08:08<Terkhen>I measure MSVC compiling times on how sleepy I get waiting for it to finish
08:08<luk3Z>Alberth: can we treat 2 tiles as 1 tile on the minimap ? it can be more readable
08:08<Alberth>luk3Z: ok :) you are already further than anybody else I think. They are all just counting trains.
08:09<luk3Z>Alberth: so we have take average form 2 tiles against from 1 tile and it can be mor clear
08:09<Alberth>luk3Z: zoom-out would be nice too. You probably need something like 10-15 tiles put into 4 pixels for displaying 2048x2048 maps
08:10<luk3Z>Alberth: I'm working on equation only - remember
08:10<Alberth>number of colours is very limited
08:10<Alberth>I know
08:11<Terkhen>number of colours is very limited <-- I can attest this
08:12<luk3Z>anyway does soembody know how company owner tracks are displayed on the minimap? If this is checking all tiles 1 by 1 ?
08:12<Alberth>the price to pay for that '95 look :)
08:12<Yexo>yes luk3Z
08:12<Alberth>yes
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08:15<luk3Z>Alberth: how we recognize traffic e.g. for constant numbers or via by variable number of density
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08:16<luk3Z>Alberth: if we use max_ as var we can showing traffic more precisely I think
08:17<Alberth>first do the formula, then worry about how to implement I'd say
08:19<luk3Z>Alberth: I working on example with stations A->B and C->D and common 2 tile tracks now
08:19<Alberth>there are limitations to what you can collect, but better worry about that later.
08:19<Alberth>I don't need an update every 5 minutes :)
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08:23<luk3Z>Alberth: ok equation for simple A->B is: TIL1+TILn+TILn+1/n (TIL - number of trains per month on 1 tile; n - number of tiles) for all simple track A->B
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08:24<PeterT>does anyone know at which revision the "-f" parameter was introduced?
08:27<Alberth>find the file with the -f handler code, do svn blame on that file, look at the revision shown before that code, check with svn log whether that is the right revision.
08:28<Alberth>(ie, no, but you can find out)
08:28<PeterT>the only thing I don't know how to do is to find the -f handler code
08:28<Yexo>it's in openttd.cpp
08:28<PeterT>ok
08:28<luk3Z>does any counter exist in OTTD ofr trains on the tile ?
08:28<Yexo>no
08:29<PeterT>thanks Yexo
08:29<Yexo>luk3Z: and it can't be added easily because the map array is full
08:30<luk3Z>Yexo: but it is possible to add something what count traffic on the tracks ?
08:30<Yexo>I didn't say it was impssible, just hard because the map array is full
08:30<Yexo>so you'd need to either add external storage or enlarge the map array
08:31<Yexo>and personally I don't find this important enough to enlarge the map array
08:31<PeterT>well, I found the author
08:31<PeterT>TrueLight
08:32<PeterT>r1154 apparently
08:32<luk3Z>anybody know how grf grass on the track working and who is the author ?
08:32<Yexo>search the development forum and you need a patch besides that grf
08:32<Yexo>that grf doesn't work without the patch
08:33<PeterT>luk3Z: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=32285
08:34<luk3Z>PeterT: thanks !
08:34<PeterT>Alberth: http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/rev/e843dd369938 <-- Found it
08:34<PeterT>Don't thank me, thank yexo
08:34<PeterT>he's the one who gave you real advice
08:35<luk3Z>PeterT: thx for link and of course for advices
08:35<Yexo>luk3Z: for future reference: this search gives that topic as first result http://www.google.nl/search?q=grass+growth+site%3Att-forums.net
08:36<Alberth>r1154 is like back in the stone age :)
08:36<PeterT>yeah, I know
08:36<luk3Z>Yexo: I just thought that author will be online on IRC but I was wrong
08:37-!-heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: heffer]
08:37<Alberth>even if he was, he may not remember how it works
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08:39<luk3Z>Alberth: right, anyway I abandon this project maybe someone else try to make something similar to this idea
08:43<luk3Z>Alberth: I send priv msg to the author of "Grass growth on unused tracks" and maybe he share his code
08:44<Alberth>you can try, but you can probably download it from the forums already
08:45<Yexo>the code is available in the first post of the topic linked earlier
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08:45<Alberth>ie there is most likely nothing more than what you can get already
08:45<luk3Z>Yexo: you right I check it
08:52<luk3Z>it looks quite interesting it even have future support for tunnels, neighbour checking it is more complex than thought
08:54<Terkhen>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif <-- what is the english name of colour #128
08:54<Terkhen>?
08:55<@Rubidium>yuck :)
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08:55<Alberth>that seems a pretty unique name :D
08:56<Terkhen>I like it
08:56<Terkhen>:P
08:58<Alberth>Unices commonly have a file like /usr/share/X11/rgb.txt with a lot of colour names
09:00<@Rubidium>it doesn't seem to have a colour name
09:00<@Rubidium>it's somewhere between 'valhalla' and 'crescendo' I'd say
09:01<frosch123>dark greyish violet :p
09:02<@Rubidium>hmm, actually.. the colour isn't what OpenTTD would give I think
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09:02<planetmaker>[14:54] <Terkhen> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif <-- what is the english name of colour #128 <-- I'd call it something like "midnight blue"
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09:03<Neon>Does anyone of you know how the duration of one ingame day is?
09:03<planetmaker>13.5 minutes per year
09:03<Eoin>^^
09:03<Neon>Thanks.
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09:03<planetmaker>2.2s per day or so
09:03<planetmaker>iirc
09:03<Alberth>@calc 13.5 * 60 / 356
09:03<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 2.27528089888
09:04<frosch123>why is that question asked so often?
09:04<roboboy>is that dependant on your CPU speed?
09:04<Terkhen>I'll put it as violet for now... once I see it working I'll ask for names again
09:04<@Rubidium>frosch123: because searching is difficult?
09:04<planetmaker>oh, hello quack^Wfrosch123
09:04<frosch123>well, i mean, why is that information of any interest?
09:05<Alberth>roboboy: as long as you pull less than 100% single core cpu, no
09:05<frosch123>moin pm :)
09:05<Alberth>Neon: why do you want to know?
09:08<dragonhorseboy>any of you ever played with the Denver & Rio Grande or WrightAI ais that can be downloaded from bananas?
09:08<roboboy>I just remember people saying TTD used to be CPU speed dependant in terms of game time speed
09:09<frosch123>dragonhorseboy: wrightai is not really meant to play against :)
09:09<dragonhorseboy>frosch heh and why not? :P
09:09<frosch123>it is a simple example ai for ai writers to start with
09:09<@Rubidium>because wrightai is merely a proof-of-concept AI; that shows the basics of an AI
09:10<dragonhorseboy>well its been building so many used airports that I can't believe the goddamn AI is already earning a lot more than my two coal mine rail routes now :p
09:10<andythenorth>hi frosch123
09:11<dragonhorseboy>oh yeah one of the first mine I started with .. stupidly enough the D&RG ai also built there soon too .. talk about competition >_<
09:11<dragonhorseboy>it was the one only biggest mine on map :P
09:12<frosch123>hello andy :) how are the ponys?
09:12<andythenorth>frosch123: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=40917
09:13<andythenorth>I can't remember...that pony might exist already?
09:14<dragonhorseboy>well I guess if AI development keeps up like this .. pretty soon we could have single AIs that would be almost as smart as basic human players :)
09:14*andythenorth and I for one welcome our robot overlords
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09:15<dragonhorseboy>hmmm yeah I could imagine.. an IS game with half human and half AI players
09:15<dragonhorseboy>would be a bit chaotic lol
09:15<frosch123>no, that pony is unavailable
09:15<andythenorth>stupid pony
09:15<andythenorth>I'll draw a landing pad I guess
09:17<andythenorth>:D
09:17<Mks>is it possible to make crossing bridges somehow?
09:17<dragonhorseboy>mks..?
09:17<Mks>well crossing bridges on diffrent levels
09:17<dragonhorseboy>I thought you already could for several versions now
09:18<Mks>ohh doesn't seem possible
09:18<dragonhorseboy>hmm
09:18<frosch123>you can only cross tunnels with the cheats
09:19<Mks>well I mean more have one bridge higher up crossing over a lower bridge
09:19<Mks>I mean its possible without cheat on tunnels to build like that
09:19*andythenorth takes a pony outside and shoots it
09:20<dragonhorseboy>mks personally I'm still waiting for the patch to finally be able to build a simple bridge (something that wouldn't engulf the house in many timber legs heh) across the roof of a house :S
09:20<dragonhorseboy>or even ottd itself either way
09:20<dragonhorseboy>heh
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09:20<Mks>that would be nice as well if it was possibel
09:20<Mks>possible
09:21<Mks>I want diagonal tunnels and bridges as well :)
09:21<dragonhorseboy>yeah mks... more than often there's only one or two houses in the way of being able to finish a deep bridge crossing in arctic maps
09:21<dragonhorseboy>:/
09:21<Mks>well one thing also signaling on bridges and tunnels that would really help
09:22<dragonhorseboy>mks ... heh
09:22<Mks>I belive there is a patch for that but works a bit odd
09:22<dragonhorseboy>and mks diagonal tunnels would be a bit too difficult to enact onto the map
09:22<dragonhorseboy>especially with regarding to tunnel portals as well
09:22<@peter1138>freeform bendy tunnels and bridges!
09:23<Alberth>winding loops the easy way
09:23<roboboy>We need locomoptions map array behind OpenTTD
09:23<@peter1138>hmm, might as well play locomotion
09:23<@peter1138>hehe
09:23<roboboy>*locomotion
09:23<Mks>I got locomotion
09:23<Mks>and its no good
09:23<Mks>its really bad building ui
09:24<roboboy>its good and bads
09:24<Mks>well openttd is better
09:24<roboboy>I find it too hard at the begining
09:24<Mks>I do like the better looking trains and stuff in locomotion
09:24<roboboy>cost wise
09:24<Mks>and maps are silly small
09:24*dragonhorseboy still plays rct once in a while (corkscrew addon as well)
09:25<Mks>and really building and advanced railnetwork is really hard in locomotion if its even possible
09:25<roboboy>but ive heard it suffers the same poblem (O)TTD(P) suffers late in the game
09:25<Mks>what do you mean?
09:26<roboboy>Too much mooneyz
09:26<Mks>ahh well
09:26<Mks>not really a problem :P
09:27<Mks>and really if you build a sucessfull company irl you would eventually end up with alot of money as well
09:27<dragonhorseboy>personally I still think cargo handling is best done in RT2
09:27<Luukland>tooo much money? You should try hard game with competition then :P
09:29<dragonhorseboy>luuk...btw check dbsetxl .. it more or less use real life pricing (except for ICEs which would had been way too expensive for gameplay) .. eg if you started late in 90's .. even with the max loan you only can just about afford one moderate diesel locomotive alone on a short rail line
09:29<@peter1138>would have :s
09:29<dragonhorseboy>even if you start early eg in 30's and play it nonstop .. it still doesn't really leave you with much cash even 70 years later
09:30<@peter1138>depends how you play
09:30<@peter1138>it is easy to end up with loads of money even with dbsetxl
09:30<Terkhen>finished: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=46601
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09:30<Terkhen>uploaded with an incorrect name, though
09:30<dragonhorseboy>peter well I've played it many times starting in many different manners .. and still never can afford a fleet of ICEs right off in 2010 even if I tried :)
09:30<dragonhorseboy>to our own I guess
09:31<andythenorth>Terkhen: try it with FIRS :)
09:31<Terkhen>okay
09:31<dragonhorseboy>hey andythenorth .. was wondering when you'll be online again :P
09:31<Luukland>Hmmm dbsetxl, brakes the balance between trains and road vehicles no?
09:31<andythenorth>dragonhorseboy later today...I'm going out now
09:32<dragonhorseboy>ah ok
09:32<andythenorth>bye!
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09:32<dragonhorseboy>anydthenorth btw I downloaded the yesterday nightly of FIRS and...
09:32<dragonhorseboy>..and...oh crap
09:32<dragonhorseboy>:S
09:32<Luukland>Whahaha :P
09:32*dragonhorseboy whacks luukland
09:32<planetmaker>frosch123: I have a newgrf puzzle which I don't understand concerning disabling of FIRS
09:32<dragonhorseboy>>_<
09:33<SpComb>dbsetxl's costs depend on your difficulty settings
09:33<planetmaker>it works for me as intended but not for andythenorth. I sent you the relevant files via tt-forums message. If you have time somewhen, it'd be nice, if you could tell me whether I miss something really obvious
09:33<SpComb>I'm playing with the wrong difficulty settings because I have 1.5 billion € in 1964
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09:34<@peter1138>yeha, you should be playing with DEM :)
09:34<@peter1138>DM?
09:34<planetmaker>the only real difference between his and my nfo is the line endings. He uses windows style, I use unix style. A diff after having converted line endings is pretty boring.
09:35<dragonhorseboy>yeah I always set it to DEM for dbsetxl .. $ for nars/2cc ... pounds for ukrs
09:35<@peter1138>diff should be able to ignore line endings
09:35<@peter1138>or any whitespace change
09:35<dragonhorseboy>and whoever thought it was a good idea to use wrong side signals with nars .. well .. curse them :S
09:35<Alberth>-w option afaik
09:41<planetmaker>peter1138: hm, well... I didn't check for options. But I guess, I should. But anyway, a dos2unix on one file resulted in the same
09:42*dragonhorseboy pokes eoin
09:44*roboboy should sleep
09:50-!-elmz_ [~elmz@vpn-222099.vpn-s.ntnu.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:50<@Rubidium>hahah... clocks going from 2009 to 2016... and people not knowing what's the cause :)
09:51<planetmaker>he?
09:51<Luukland>black holes!
09:51<dragonhorseboy>7 years leap? something's odd
09:51<@Rubidium>http://www.smh.com.au/business/businesses-stung-by-boq-computer-bug-20100103-lmys.html
09:51<KingJ>After Y2K went by without much fanfare, it seems Y2K10 is causing lots of problems
09:52<planetmaker>lool
09:53*dragonhorseboy wonders what kingj was really thinking
09:55<@Rubidium>must say using a nibble to store a decimal number is ingenious
09:55<@Rubidium>it makes hex human readable
09:58<Alberth>all LCD clocks work in that way
09:59-!-Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has joined #openttd
09:59<Alberth>but it gives a nice y10k problem :)
09:59<Alberth>oh, 'y10' even
09:59<dragonhorseboy>year 2100 anyone?
10:00<planetmaker>dragonhorseboy: rather y2038: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem
10:01<@Rubidium>planetmaker: y2038 is so old already... like dozens of y2038 bugs have been hit
10:01<dragonhorseboy>planetmakers are coders really that lazy? -_-
10:04<Mks>just use 64 bit programs and it doesn't matter anymore
10:04<dragonhorseboy>mks..or use other time keeping codes instead
10:05*dragonhorseboy could set to 1960, 2000, or 2140 without any problem here
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10:07<dragonhorseboy>hmm .. eoin said brb at 8:56 and its 10:06 now .. blah
10:08<dragonhorseboy>oh well what to do now
10:08<planetmaker>he prefers to be back not wrongly
10:09<dragonhorseboy>lol
10:11-!-Chrill [~chrischri@80.216.60.117] has joined #openttd
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10:12*dragonhorseboy puts chrill in freezer
10:12<dragonhorseboy>:)
10:12<Chrill>OH NO
10:12<Chrill>What a greeting
10:12<dragonhorseboy>heh sorry ;)
10:13<Chrill>I feel assaulted
10:14<dragonhorseboy>beside that how're you?
10:14*PeterT puts dragonhorseboy in Chrill
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10:15<Luukland>Now that is ugly
10:15*Luukland gets dragonhorseboy out of Chrill
10:16<Luukland>As good as new :)
10:16*roboboy puts peanut in freezer
10:16*peanut feels salted
10:17<peanut>bye bye
10:17-!-peanut [~peanut@CPE-58-173-41-16.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit []
10:17<dragonhorseboy>:) luukland
10:18<Luukland>Hmmm 0.7.5C is really working, w00t, didn't expect that
10:18*roboboy chill chrill and waits for the loud earsplitting Chrill
10:19<dragonhorseboy>:)
10:20<roboboy>grr
10:21-!-helb [~helb@84.244.90.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:21<Luukland>Is a "openttd stopped working error" without the emergency save screen, a bug inside OTTD or just a windows error
10:24<roboboy>gnight if noone replys by the time my screensaver comes on
10:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18697 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3471]: crash when scrolling to an item removed by filtering in the 'add NewGRF window'
10:28-!-yorick [~yorick@s55924da0.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
10:28<PeterT>0.7.5c?
10:28<PeterT>yorick! hello
10:28<yorick>hi
10:28<Luukland>0.7.5C
10:29<Luukland>with capital C please
10:29<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: how is your "improvement" of the default settings going?
10:29<PeterT>Luukland: But what does the capital "C" for?
10:29<PeterT>*what is the capital C for?
10:30<PeterT>pfft, I was asking two questions at once
10:30<dragonhorseboy>heh
10:30<Luukland>C = Competition :)
10:31<dragonhorseboy>what kind of competition? :P
10:32<PeterT>can I have a binary? or a patch? Luukland
10:32<Luukland>Sure
10:32<Luukland>You may have both
10:33<dragonhorseboy>does C already have IS? heh..sounds unlikely
10:33<PeterT>Luukland: I can make you a Linux 32-bit binary
10:33<planetmaker>Rubidium: http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/ <-- OOM error
10:34<Luukland>C is only Competition
10:34<Luukland>no other patches
10:34<Luukland>PeterT, I would be glad if you could :)
10:34<dragonhorseboy>so what kind of competition then?
10:34<PeterT>Ok, will later
10:34<@Rubidium>planetmaker: bah... stupid track
10:34<dragonhorseboy>;)
10:34<Luukland>Read the changelog for the changes
10:35<PeterT>Luukland: You can't do that, you have to include a COPYING file with your build
10:35<Ammler>he, we aren't the only ones with memory issues :-)
10:35<dragonhorseboy>hey ammler :)
10:35<Luukland>Copying is at the page itselve
10:35<Luukland>Isn't that sufficient?
10:36<@Rubidium>Ammler: well, tracd seems to know when we don't like it to use more memory and then stops using more
10:36<Ammler>Luukland: is that patch compatible to the official 0.7.5?
10:36<@Rubidium>so I started giving it as little memory as possible, but apparantly this was too little
10:36<Luukland>Yes
10:36-!-[alt]buster [~eternal@cust-03-55bf402e.adsl.scarlet.nl] has joined #openttd
10:36<Ammler>so like a hybrid, cool idea :-)
10:37<Luukland>Hmmm, maybe you misunderstood then
10:37<Luukland>Or maybe I misunderstood
10:37<Luukland>0.7.5 + patch - 0.7.5C
10:37<Luukland>* =
10:37<dragonhorseboy>ammler you know how we were talking about the lumber mill tree clearing thing before?
10:37<PeterT>Luukland: If compiling with MSYS, try using ./configure --revision=0.7.5
10:37<Ammler>well, if you patch 0.7.5, it might be able to join 0.7.5 servers, why else do yo patch it?
10:37<@Rubidium>so it's not the server that's out of memory, just the server not giving more memory to tracd
10:37<Ammler>else you should patch trunk
10:38<Luukland>The patch messes with station ratings and such, which means it is a whole new version
10:38-!-[com]buster [~eternal@cust-03-55bf402e.adsl.scarlet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:38<Luukland>if used on the old versions => big dc's
10:39<planetmaker>well... then indeed: why patch a stable release and not trunk?
10:39<Luukland>uuhh, it has some floats in it :P
10:39<planetmaker>it's work ill spent to make game play changes to stables
10:39<Luukland>and it is one big mess :P
10:39<roboboy>maybe more people play stable on multiplayer?
10:40<Ammler>roboboy: you can't with it.
10:40<roboboy>hm
10:40<planetmaker>the whole point why it's useless ;-)
10:40<Luukland>PeterT? Why the hell should I use --revision=0.7.5?
10:40-!-slas_ [~chatzilla@25.201.216.81.static.s-o.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #openttd
10:41<Ammler>if you patch stable branch it's gone unstable like trunk, just in a going abandon branch.
10:41<dragonhorseboy>ammler either way one of the thing I was thinking about was what if other industries could expand out or collapse inward in similar manner and it finally struck me...
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10:42<Ammler>dragonhorseboy: those parts are hardcoded
10:42<Ammler>like the farm fields
10:42<dragonhorseboy>what if oilwells started with just the main shed and one or few pumps then as the average reserve-remaining size is determined eg each janurary or so it could add or remove dummy pumps on free tiles?
10:43<dragonhorseboy>heh hm well it was a random thought
10:43<dragonhorseboy>:)
10:43<Ammler>hmm, well, you might be able to change the layout of industries with Action2, dunno?
10:43<@Rubidium>and then in the 1990s the reserve-remaining size drops significantly because the oil companies have been misrepresenting the reserves
10:44<dragonhorseboy>eg a 30K reserve oilwell would only have its starter three pumps but one with eventual 1.4M reserve would have a handful of pumps around (being mindful of occupied tiles)
10:45<dragonhorseboy>ammler I did always wondered why the default farms didn't even have any grassy pens with cows grazing around at random
10:45<Ammler>but that is something for the grf pros, I can just Action0 :-)
10:46-!-scrooch [~scrooch@76.73.16.26] has joined #openttd
10:46<Ammler>Action2 is something like it's own nfo level...
10:46<Ammler>Var*
10:49<dragonhorseboy>hm well I'm only actually bothered with trying to figure out train-related stuffs for now (re upcoming sprites of mine) ... I'll just rather use FIRS till further note
10:50<Mks>ohh FIRS is nice
10:51<dragonhorseboy>mks..it does have its own problems tho
10:51<dragonhorseboy>but hm well its a bit more useable than default industries or any other grfs so go figure
10:51<scrooch>hi.. im new and i'd like to know what you think of my post about economics at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=29683&p=845234#p845234
10:53<dragonhorseboy>mks mind pm?
10:54-!-ZirconiumX [~Zirconium@cpc1-derb12-2-0-cust965.8-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
10:54<scrooch>Yexo: hey :)
10:55<Yexo>hello scrooch
10:55<ZirconiumX>hi scrooch
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11:10<PeterT><Luukland> PeterT? Why the hell should I use --revision=0.7.5? <-- So people on 0.7.5 can join your servers....
11:10-!-Hirundo [~Hirundo@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
11:10<PeterT>Hello scrooch
11:10-!-Ammler [~ammler@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
11:10<planetmaker>please follow the discussion, PeterT. It'd be a bad advice in this case
11:11<PeterT>I'm reading it now...
11:11<Luukland>PeterT, like I said, if someone from 0.7.5 joins, then they get an error
11:12<Luukland>We use a totally new calculation, which means we can't use 0.7.5
11:12<PeterT>so then, why not use a nightly instead?
11:12<Luukland>Whahahah, nightlies, you are funny
11:12<Luukland>that code is future code, it would need massive work to get that working
11:12<PeterT>ok, ok
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11:19<planetmaker>Luukland: but you needed the same work for this. So what's the point?
11:19<planetmaker>and it's not like the calculation concerning stations changed
11:25<Luukland>HuH?
11:25<Luukland>This patch is old, I found it in a garbage can
11:25<Luukland>or got it from a dark fellow in a underground parking area
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11:49-!-andythenorth [~andy@87.112.19.55.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd
11:50*andythenorth has been in Chipping Sodbury
11:50-!-heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: heffer]
11:51<andythenorth>^^ Chipping Sodbury isn't that bad ;)
11:51<andythenorth>no need to leave :P
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11:58<frosch123>planetmaker: loading andythenorth' save and using the newgrfs with the matching md5sums i get fatal error "E01: Incompatible set: Consult FIRS ReadMe."
11:59<planetmaker>and if you create a game with exactly those yourself, frosch123 ?
11:59<frosch123>so, what is intendet? is nars2 compatible? or not?
11:59<planetmaker>it is compatible
12:00<frosch123>oh, ok, then it does not disable
12:01<planetmaker>yeah. Same here
12:02<planetmaker>and I have absolutely no clue what is going on there :S
12:02<frosch123>hmm, the filenames from the newgrf gui and from gamelog mismatch :s
12:03<planetmaker>:-O
12:03<Terkhen>I was going to try FIRS and I get the same error
12:03<planetmaker>disabling in the presence of FIRS, Terkhen ?
12:04<andythenorth>Terkhen: that's useful info
12:04<planetmaker>yes, indeed.
12:04-!-dennis [~dennis@a83-161-238-190.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: dennis]
12:04<planetmaker>And getting more weired by the minute
12:04<Terkhen>I don't know, let me check what happened
12:04<PeterT>Luukland: Did you do something weird with your patch? I get failed hunks applying it to clean 0.7.5 source?
12:05<andythenorth>Terkhen: this? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/537/Snapshot_2010-01-03_11-18-21.png
12:05<Terkhen>exactly that one, just after game started
12:05<Terkhen>my FISH is not disabled, though
12:06<andythenorth>ignore FISH, I should have left it out of my grf list :)
12:06<Terkhen>I removed all other GRFs, started a new game and the error is gone
12:09<Terkhen>my fault, of course FIRS is incompatible with station's name from nearby industries
12:10<andythenorth>really?
12:10<andythenorth>hmmm
12:11<Terkhen>I only get the incompatible set error with that NewGRF active... I suppose it is
12:11<andythenorth>yes you're right, I just checked the source
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12:13<andythenorth>planetmaker: Terkhen's error message isn't a bug, it's correct
12:13<dragonhorseboy>dumb question but any of you know if snowlines COULD be added to a tropical map?
12:13<planetmaker>ah, good to know :-)
12:14<planetmaker>not in OpenTTD, dragonhorseboy
12:14<welshdragon>http://paste.openttd.org/220829 < any ideas?
12:14<dragonhorseboy>ah drats .. thanks planetmaker
12:16<frosch123>planetmaker, andythenorth: you check something with nars paramter 0, right?
12:17<andythenorth>yes
12:17<planetmaker>frosch123: yes. We check for bit 1 (2nd bit) being set
12:18<planetmaker>if set, there's the re-gearing cargo
12:18<frosch123>what does it mean?
12:18-!-PeterT|Ubuntu [~peter@c-65-96-203-35.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:18<planetmaker>if so, we tell that we run a compatibility mode
12:18<planetmaker>sorry, vice versa. If set, there's NO regearing cargo
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12:20<@orudge>a new title screen for OpenTTD, eh. I'll miss the ol' choo choo ding-ding-ding-ding-ding...
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12:21<@Rubidium>orudge: actually, the choo choo ding-ding-ding has changed over time :)
12:21<planetmaker>brb
12:21<@Rubidium>and you're allowed to make a intro game that does give that same effect
12:22-!-KritiK_ [~Maxim@78-106-35-5.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
12:23<@orudge>heh, I did see
12:23<PeterT>orudge: You can always use the old title game
12:24<PeterT>just insert a different opnttle.dat
12:24<andythenorth>Terkhen: how about colours 246-254 for the map :P
12:26<@orudge>PeterT: well, I realise that, yes
12:26<Terkhen>are they some kind of special colours?
12:26-!-KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-35-5.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:26<PeterT>It will be a hassle though, replacing the original files everytime
12:26-!-KritiK_ is now known as KritiK
12:26<PeterT>I wonder if you could do it by adding an opnttle.dat to the shared directory
12:26<@orudge>qwll, I'm not necessarily going to actually do that in practice :/
12:28<andythenorth>Terkhe: eight identical shades of hot pink
12:29<Terkhen>then we would get a big pink stain with some industries floating over it
12:30<Terkhen>:P
12:30<andythenorth>Terkhen: more seriously, colours 96-103 might be a better version for players who want green, I'm trying to approximate it in photoshop...
12:31<Terkhen>I'll replace red with these colours, let's see how they look
12:33<welshdragon>what have i done wrong here: http://paste.openttd.org/220830
12:33<@Rubidium>using a broken compiler
12:33<welshdragon>:(
12:33<welshdragon>how to fix?
12:33<welshdragon>(and it's in ubuntu)
12:35<@Rubidium>no idea; the compiler crashing on a printf seems pretty bad
12:35<welshdragon>according to Sacro it's the endian check
12:36<@Rubidium>it's the compiler that's crashing when compiling endian_check
12:36*Eoin thinks someone should compile for welshdragon :D
12:36<dragonhorseboy>heh
12:37<dragonhorseboy>eoin where have you been??? your "brb" was more than a hour
12:37<dragonhorseboy>:p
12:37<welshdragon>it patched fine
12:37<Eoin>ah
12:37<Eoin>yes
12:37<@Rubidium>in other words, it's not a problem of OpenTTD, it's a problem of the compiler you're using
12:37<Eoin>im basically back
12:37<dragonhorseboy>:P
12:38<andythenorth>dragonhorseboy: did you have a question for me earlier?
12:40<dragonhorseboy>hmm don't recall so
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12:45<Terkhen>andythenorth: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=46601&p=845305#p845305
12:46<andythenorth>Terkhen: how is brown for you on that map?
12:47<Terkhen>slightly better than with normal green, but still difficult
12:48<Terkhen>I can see the iron ore mine perfectly, but now I confuse the aluminium plant
12:49<Terkhen>I suspect that it is not really brown, but I don't know for sure
12:49<frosch123>usage of parameter 9 should be forbidden
12:50<Terkhen>I like the dark green colour for the heightmap anyways, looks nice
12:52<Hyronymus>it looks good, Terkhen
12:52<Hyronymus>not too bright
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12:57<Terkhen>with dark green, I can see all FIRS industries easily after disabling the heightmap
12:57<Terkhen>I think it is perfect
12:58<andythenorth>dare I try compiling :|
12:58<andythenorth>yes I dar
12:58<andythenorth>e
12:58*andythenorth fails to understand sprite bounding boxes correctly
12:59<Terkhen>wait, I'll upload the new diff file
13:00<Terkhen>done
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13:09<andythenorth>frosch123: what is the problem with param 9?
13:12<andythenorth>Terkhen: compiled. Map color patch == win :)
13:12<Terkhen>:)
13:13<Terkhen>do you think the colour changes should affect all other modes (besides vegetation)?
13:13<andythenorth>should the gui control for that be in the map?
13:14<Terkhen>it would be useful, but I think all advanced settings are changed only at the advanced settings window
13:15<andythenorth>I don't know if it should affect the other map modes
13:15<andythenorth>probably
13:15<frosch123>planetmaker, andythenorth: you use parameter 0 uninitialised. in the save parameter 0 is somehow 2
13:16<Terkhen>the grey mode probably conflicts with rails, I'll have to check that
13:16<andythenorth>frosch123: the NARS param 0, or the FIRS param 0?
13:16<frosch123>firs param 0
13:16<Terkhen>I don't think that violet or dark green conflict with any colours
13:18<andythenorth>frosch123: I have no idea how that is getting set to 2
13:18<andythenorth>either bad nfo code, or something weird with my OTTD
13:18<andythenorth>I guess
13:18<frosch123>well, i fear it is ottd's fault to not always zero the parameters
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13:20<frosch123>yup, reproduced
13:21<andythenorth>yup me too
13:21<frosch123>start ottd, set firs parameter 0 to 2, then delete all parameters, then start the game.
13:21<andythenorth>= error
13:21<andythenorth>then set firs param 0 explicitly to 0
13:21<andythenorth>= no error
13:21<frosch123>the param has still value 2 as it was not initialised, and ottd does not always check number of valid parameters
13:21<andythenorth>should the grf try and handle that
13:21<andythenorth>?
13:22<frosch123>no idea what you intend with param 0, but it is at least partly ottd's fault
13:23<andythenorth>FIRS param 0 should default to 0 if not explicitly set
13:23<andythenorth>planetmaker ^^ maybe we should code for that?
13:29<planetmaker>back
13:29<andythenorth>bug: reproduced ;)
13:31<andythenorth>question to the audience:
13:31<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=122231
13:31<andythenorth>"Dredging Site", "Dredging Operation", or "Dredger"
13:31<andythenorth>?
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13:32<sam_ch>if you ask, i'd say the latter
13:32<planetmaker>andy, yes, we should prepare for the parameter to be set to 0, if not explicitly set by the user...
13:32<planetmaker>also: dredging site
13:33<andythenorth>planetmaker: do you want to code the parameter, or do you want me to do it?
13:33<planetmaker>I can take care of that, if you like. If you don't mind to not have it done tonight :-)
13:33<andythenorth>fine by me
13:33<planetmaker>I haven't yet finished correcting homeworks
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13:34<andythenorth>thinking I might release something
13:34<planetmaker>sure, why not
13:34<andythenorth>how much does the helicopter 'bug' matter on the dredging site (see it in the image linked above)
13:34<andythenorth>?
13:35<planetmaker>it's rather a glitch :-)
13:35<andythenorth>I could draw a landing platform, but the shadow will still be wrong
13:35<planetmaker>Not desirable in the final one. But yet another intermediate release shouldn't be stalled by that
13:36<Yexo>do you want a heliport there at all or was the plan to remove it (I know the current specs don't support that)?
13:37<andythenorth>I don't want a heliport there
13:40-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello080109200215.3.sc-graz.chello.at] has joined #openttd
13:40<frosch123>we are reaching eddi's favorite topic
13:41<@Rubidium>"the defaults are wrong"
13:41<frosch123>no, state machines for all vehicles
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r18698 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: estonian - 71 changes by KSiimson
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: greek - 4 changes by fumantsu
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: indonesian - 4 changes by prof
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
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13:46<andythenorth>I could draw sprites for a much larger dredging barge...with helipad
13:46<andythenorth>http://www.dredgebrokers.com/Barges_Work/91132-BW/Barge.html
13:46<andythenorth>meh
13:47<planetmaker>I really would need to see a dredging barge where sand is transported away by transport helicopters ;-)
13:47<andythenorth>This one's pretty awesome, no helipad, but a helipad is plausible...
13:47<andythenorth>http://www.archirodon.net/content/equipment/images/atlantis.jpg
13:48<andythenorth>this one does have a helipad
13:48<andythenorth>http://www.archirodon.net/content/equipment/index.php?mainkat=Accommodation%20Barges
13:48<andythenorth>enough already
13:49<welshdragon>in the nightly timetable window: what does the button scheduled/expected do?
13:51<@Rubidium>toggle between showing the scheduled arrival/departure times and the expected (based on current lateness) arrival/departure times
13:52<welshdragon>i don't see any diffenece :/
13:52<welshdragon>how do i do seperation?
13:52<@Rubidium>find a train that's late and you'll see a difference
13:52<welshdragon>oh, i c
13:53<@Rubidium>or one that's early, although that only shows when using waypoints
13:53<welshdragon>ah
13:53<welshdragon>i can see the difference now
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13:56*welshdragon tries to find a wiki page that can help
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14:00<ccfreak2k>It's too bad the opengl patch died.
14:04<@Rubidium>well, it never really worked either
14:05<frosch123>and the blitters are not the bottleneck anymore
14:05*Rubidium wonders how many people's new year's resolutions have been to be stupider than the previous decade
14:07<@peter1138>heh
14:07<@peter1138>the opengl blitter *was* a huge bottleneck when zoomed out ;)
14:07-!-Madis [~stabuinte@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
14:12<@Rubidium># isn't it ironic, don't you think :)
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14:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r18699 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h newgrf_spritegroup.cpp): -Fix [FS#PlanetAndy]: GRF parameters were not properly initialised to zero, and not always checked for valid range.
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14:32<andythenorth>hmmm....helicopter shadow is anyway broken on default oil rig
14:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r18700 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: when deleting an industry on water (oil rigs) the tiles on water were not marked dirty
14:37<andythenorth>Yexo: that last commit...I've been deleting water industries and their sprites are drawn for quite some time after destruction....are they related?
14:38-!-Illegal_Alien [~Illegal_A@ip4da39612.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd
14:38<Yexo>yes, that should be fixedwith that commit
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14:48<Chrill>Where's space?
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14:48-!-I-want-to-kill-stupid-people-a is now known as Illegal_Alien
14:48<Illegal_Alien>wrong
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15:08<luk3Z>varity distribution - what is that ? I try generate new map in r18698 but this option is new since 0.7.5
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15:10<planetmaker>size of landscape features roughly speaking
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15:12<frosch123>luk3Z: it controls whether a hilly landscape is hilly in all places or also mountainious and flat in some
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15:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r18701 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r18700): always compile before making a commit
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15:15<hellerrr>hi
15:16<planetmaker>moin
15:17<hellerrr>when a train is reversing to check for empty route
15:17<hellerrr>how can i make it turn back if a route forward is free?
15:18<planetmaker>press the "turn train button"
15:18<hellerrr>but i dont want to turn all trains manually
15:18<planetmaker>bad luck then
15:18<dragonhorseboy>umm why are you intentionally causing all of your trains to flip around in first place?
15:18<hellerrr>i get a message "train is lost" or there is no profit cos trains are stopped to wrong direction
15:19<planetmaker>wait till they turn themselves. Works for non-pbs signals
15:19<hellerrr>pbs?
15:19<hellerrr>what was it..
15:19<planetmaker>path signals
15:19<planetmaker>as opposed to block signals
15:19<hellerrr>the one with 2 reds?
15:19<planetmaker>hm, yes
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15:19<hellerrr>hmm
15:19<planetmaker>I guess it's true for most graphical representations of them ;-)
15:20<hellerrr>ill give you an url
15:20<hellerrr>http://heller.huono.org/openttd/Tuomela%20Transport,%2017-12-2028.png
15:20<hellerrr>thats one example
15:20-!-[alt]buster [~eternal@cust-03-55bf402e.adsl.scarlet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:20<hellerrr>that log-train is reversed
15:20<hellerrr>and only waiting
15:20<hellerrr>even if there is room ahead
15:20<dragonhorseboy>hellerrr try normal signals?
15:20<dragonhorseboy>who knows heh
15:21<planetmaker>yeah, you use path signals. You have to turn them all manually
15:21<planetmaker>there's somewhere a config setting which forbids turning at all.
15:22<planetmaker>wait_for_pbs_path
15:22<dragonhorseboy>hmmm no tank locomotive in PJ1K .. what were they actually thinking
15:23<hellerrr>http://heller.huono.org/openttd/Tuomela%20Transport,%202038-07-26.png and that too
15:23<planetmaker>you can change that variable to 255 to have trains never turn
15:23<hellerrr>from console?
15:23<planetmaker>yes
15:23<hellerrr>no such varialb
15:23<hellerrr>e
15:24<planetmaker>then something similar. Your openttd.cfg will know :-)
15:25<hellerrr>oops
15:25<planetmaker>well. Mine knows
15:25<hellerrr>in that new pic i made the "upper" arrows point to wrong train :D
15:25<planetmaker>and our server, too
15:25<hellerrr>hm=
15:26<planetmaker>rcon set "wait_for_pbs_path 255"
15:26<planetmaker>I never recall though how to put the "
15:26<hellerrr>its not a server
15:26<hellerrr>local game
15:27<planetmaker>yeah. should work despite
15:27<planetmaker>maybe you can do w/o rcon
15:27<hellerrr>cant
15:27<hellerrr>ooh
15:27<hellerrr>can
15:28-!-mgmuscari [~mgmuscari@pool-71-187-112-171.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd
15:29<mgmuscari>hey... i can't find anything beyond the fix (which doesn't seem to work) in the known-bugs.txt file. does anybody else have choppy sound in 1.0.0-beta1 using pulseaudio under ubuntu karmic?
15:30<Yexo>I've been thinking about allowing a newgrf industry to have only a dock or only a heliport
15:30<planetmaker>that sounds desirable, Yexo :-)
15:30<Yexo>would adding 2 bits to the special industry flags (var 1A) that each disable one of the features (dock/heliport) be a good idea?
15:30<dragonhorseboy>yexo what kind of industry?
15:31<Yexo>so if you want to have only a heliport you enable the BUILD_ON_WATER flag, then also enable the DISABLE_DOCK flag
15:31<Yexo>dragonhorseboy: I'll leave that to the imagination of newgrf authors
15:31<Yexo>but andythenorth has already an industry that would use this I think
15:31<dragonhorseboy>yexo...some kind of alternative oilrigs you mean?
15:32<Yexo>on the other hand that'd still link it to the BUILD_ON_WATER flag
15:32<Yexo>maybe something that also works for land industries is better
15:32<planetmaker>yes...
15:32<dragonhorseboy>if its on land it better accept road and/or rail elsewise why is there really any point in having that industry there in first place unless its just for looks like the lighthouses?
15:33<planetmaker>Yexo: though... I don't see that adding such flag limits it to water only
15:34<@Rubidium>mgmuscari: don't think there are many ubuntu karmic users in here
15:34<Yexo>planetmaker: adding the flag doesn't, but with my definition above it is
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15:35<gathers>mgmuscari, I don't know about karmic but I made a different personal fix myself (before knowing about the bug) Increasing spec.samples from 512 to 1024 seemed to cure my high cpu usage (on jaunty)
15:35<mgmuscari>gathers: in openttd.cfg?
15:36<mgmuscari>gathers: did you compile it or install with the .deb?
15:36-!-luk3Z [~chatzilla@adln122.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:36<gathers>no, in src/sound/sdl_s.cpp
15:36<mgmuscari>ah... you compiled it
15:37<mgmuscari>maybe i'll just go back to 0.7.0 for now
15:37-!-Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d199-126-251-5.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
15:38<gathers>compiled myself, no idea if it can be done via openttd.cfg ;) Had a similar problem with another app of my own
15:38<mgmuscari>gathers: do you know what spec.samples does? i find that when i have problems with applications and pulseaudio increasing the number of samples in the buffer usually does help
15:39<Yexo>From reading the code is seems that if you want a dock/heliport at a newgrf station you have to include two tiles with id 24 (hex 18), is that correct? Can't find anything about that in the spec
15:40<mgmuscari>gathers: thanks, i think i'm going to go back to 0.7.1 for now. i don't have a whole lot of time to go debugging the beta :/
15:41<planetmaker>andythenorth: ^
15:41<gathers>mgmuscari, not sure exactly, but I think it's the buffer size in samples. Low values means less latency, but underruns if the buffer can't be kept filled
15:41<planetmaker>I've no idea honestly, sorry
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15:42<frosch123>Yexo: yes, it is that stupid
15:43<Yexo>wouldn't it be better to add a flag to an industry tile that enables the dock or heliport or both?
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15:43<frosch123>on the long go, there should be a callback to decide for industry/station tiles and a statemachine for aircraft (maybe also one for ships)
15:43<frosch123>and definitely the need for a station tile should be removed to allow custom drawing of those tiles
15:44<Yexo>hmm, seems like a bigger problem then I expected
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15:44<frosch123>well, depends whether such a flag would be deprecated once there is a newgrf statemachine
15:44<frosch123>you should know better than me :p
15:45<Yexo>my current implementation of airports doesn't cares about the tiles once the airport has been build
15:45<mgmuscari>gathers: interesting, i went back to 0.7.1 and cpu usage is still high, sound is still choppy
15:45<Yexo>so it can work for industries too
15:45<hellerrr>that aint working
15:45<hellerrr>the 255 value
15:45<Yexo>so yes that flag would be deprecated
15:45<mgmuscari>this must be a karmic problem, not openttd
15:46<mgmuscari>worked fine in jaunty
15:46<frosch123>if you want an intermediate solution the "ai flag for ship&air routes" should be split imo
15:46<andythenorth>Yexo: that flag would be very useful
15:46<Yexo>so maybe I should just hurry up and finish newairports
15:46<andythenorth>I have a graphical fix meanwhile for my dredging site.
15:46<andythenorth>except now I have to draw it
15:46<andythenorth>but right now I have to spend time with my wife :o
15:46*andythenorth afk
15:47<planetmaker>hehe :-) Real life can be so nice, eh? :-P
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15:48<gathers>mgmuscari, ah, just found I can work around my high-cpu problem by starting with SDL_AUDIODRIVER=pulse bin/openttd
15:48<Yexo>frosch123: still seems like a lot of work for an intermediat solution
15:49<mgmuscari>gathers: still poking around the source code?
15:49<frosch123>yup, i also prefer the newairport solution :)
15:49<gathers>no, with an unmodified 1.0-beta
15:49<andythenorth>Yexo: just reading back....if the flag allowed heliports at land based industries, there are other problems...
15:49<planetmaker>haha :-)
15:50-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:50<Yexo>andythenorth: read the rest and discover I'm not going that road
15:50<gathers>I still compiled it myself though
15:51<andythenorth>ok
15:51<Yexo>helping me test newgrf airports will get you a solutionj sooner :p
15:51<gathers>same workaround I suppose, but without package installations
15:51<andythenorth>ah but how can I test that when I have to draw new dredging site sprites :D
15:51<frosch123>is there any support for industry bases airports yet?
15:51<planetmaker>Yexo: just throw tests at us :-)
15:51<Yexo>no
15:51<Yexo>planetmaker: writing an airport newgrf
15:52<andythenorth>I tried reading the spec
15:52<Yexo>frosch123: but maybe you can help writing that part of the spec?
15:52<Yexo>no idea where to start really
15:52<andythenorth>Pikka understands it, I don't
15:52<planetmaker>how many do you have, Yexo ?
15:52<frosch123>i cannot remember the tile->isdepot callback, but maybe a special value for "this is a industry tile" would just be enough
15:52<Yexo>currently only 2 I think, the water airport and the diagonal one
15:52<Yexo>and pikka has one but that's unfinished
15:52<frosch123>Yexo: there is already one paragraph about "public airports"
15:53<Hirundo>Is a collection of airport graphics available somewhere?
15:53<andythenorth>I have a FIRS industry that I would like to include an airport if possible (despite some drawbacks)
15:54<planetmaker>ok, basically what I assumed. Anything in particular? (Not that I have time, but I'm not always sensible there...)
15:54<Hirundo>That would enable people to start coding more easily, since few coders are good at drawing
15:54<andythenorth>so maybe I should try and code that
15:54<Yexo>frosch123: ah, forgot your proposal
15:54<Yexo>basically industries need a var to point them to the airport and the airport doesn't need the tile layout, right?
15:54<planetmaker>Hirundo: well, the OpenGFX graphics and there's some he has from Skidd
15:54<andythenorth>surely there are airport tiles in OpenGFX that can be grabbed?
15:54<andythenorth>oh
15:54<planetmaker>and Pikka's.
15:54<dragonhorseboy>andythenorth .. I always did wondered how companies-neutral stations worked .. especially for oilrigs
15:54<Yexo>andythenorth: the graphics aren't the problem
15:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r18702 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Fix [FS#3467]: Enable DrawGroundSpriteAt() to deal with foundations as DrawGroundSprite() does, and use this for drawing one-way-road-signs and clear-land-fences.
15:55<andythenorth>ok genuinely afk :o
15:56<frosch123>Yexo: basically yes, but the question is in which way airport and industry and tiles can interchange information, i.e. whether they share the persistant registers and variables, or whether there is some access to a "third feature"
15:57<Yexo>the functionality of airport tiles is basically a copy of the functionality of industry tiles
15:58<Yexo>only problem is that the airport action 2 variables arent' accessable by the industry tiles
15:58<frosch123>well, there are three action3 features (industry tiles, industry, airport) and 4 variable ranges (tile, industry, airport, town)
15:59-!-weaselboy246 [risugami@67-54-241-148.cust.wildblue.net] has joined #openttd
15:59<Yexo>how many variable ranges are supported? I know normally 2 (81/82 for bytes) but I think sometimes a third is used (83?) like for vehicles
16:01<Yexo>another problem is that the rest of the code is not going to like stations without any tiles
16:01<frosch123>80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 89, 8a are used
16:01<Yexo>what's the meaning of 84?
16:02-!-mgmuscari [~mgmuscari@pool-71-187-112-171.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:02<frosch123>some weird magic with accessing random bits of other vehicles
16:02-!-andythenorth [~andy@87.112.19.55.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
16:02<frosch123>anyway, i never detected any logic in usage of those values :p
16:03-!-mgmuscari [~mgmuscari@pool-71-187-112-171.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd
16:03<planetmaker>I somewhat find the 8x variables magic still... doing strange stuff ;-)
16:03<planetmaker>all of them
16:03<frosch123>hint: we are not talking about 8x variables
16:03<frosch123>:p
16:04<mgmuscari>gathers: FYI it appears that adding tsched=0 to the module-udev-detect line in /etc/pulse/default.pa file resolves the problem
16:04<mgmuscari>gathers: SDL appears to not like timer-based scheduling vs. interrupt-based scheduling
16:05<mgmuscari>gathers: my guess is SDL wants to do things in a rather asynchronous way, not in "real time" which is what the timer-based scheduling is expecting
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16:06<frosch123>Yexo: but yes, looks like a industry-airport should consist only of industry tiles, no airport tiles
16:06<Yexo>but that'll give problems because the "Station" has no tiles
16:06<mgmuscari>gathers: changing the PA config allows the beta to run normally too
16:08<frosch123>i remember once exploring that, and oilrig-tiles were not really needed
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16:08<@Rubidium>mgmuscari: if that solution is better than installing libsdl1.2debian-pulse, can you write a piece for knownbugs.txt on what to change?
16:08<mgmuscari>gathers: try changing your code back to what's in the SVN repo and compile, then change the following line in /etc/pulse/default.pa: load-module module-udev-detect -> load-module module-udev-detect tsched=0
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16:08<mgmuscari>Rubidium: actually installing libsdl1.2debian-pulse made no difference for me, so i suspect SDL just can't deal with PA using timer-based scheduling
16:09<mgmuscari>Rubidium: how would I go about doing that?
16:09<mgmuscari>Rubidium: check it out from SVN?
16:09<gathers>mgmuscari, nice :) though I would rather just launch with SDL_AUDIODRIVER=pulse for now. But I can try that and see how it behaves
16:10<mgmuscari>wow, opensfx sounds a lot better
16:10<@Rubidium>mgmuscari: just write down a replacement for the current text in known-bugs.txt at e.g. paste.openttd.org and link that here
16:10<Yexo>frosch123: currently you can transport any cargo from an oil rig if another industry is close enough
16:10<Yexo>should that just be regarded as a bug then?
16:11<weaselboy246>i'd say so
16:13<gathers>mgmuscari, I don't have that line in there to start with.. will try adding and restarting pulse-audio
16:13<frosch123>he, you can ask the same question about acceptance of cargo and other stations nearby (i.e. the typical railroad station next to the oilrig :p)
16:14<Yexo>well that can be explained by the industry delivering goods both to the internal station and to external stations
16:14<Yexo>just like how cargo can be split between stations
16:15<weaselboy246>funny that the first time i played TTD i didn't know i could use oil rig as station. actually used to raise land and build dock lol
16:15<mgmuscari>Rubidium: http://paste.openttd.org/220842
16:15<Timmaexx>Sorry i couldn't watch the conversation of rubidium, gathers and mgmuscari. My OpenTTD sound is broken, can i solve this by installing libsdl1.2debian-pulse?
16:15<mgmuscari>Timmaexx: what operating system are you using?
16:15<Timmaexx>I have Ubuntu 9.10
16:15<gathers>mgmuscari, changing default.pa had no effect for me with svn r18622, atleast not with a simple /etc/init.d/pulseaudio restart
16:16<mgmuscari>gathers: keep in mind that in 9.10 PA runs in per-user mode, not as a daemon
16:16<Yexo>Timmaexx: read known-bugs.txt and the pastebin mgmuscari just posted (http://paste.openttd.org/220842)
16:16<mgmuscari>log out and log back in for good measure... restarting PA by hand gave me some problems so i just bounced my X server
16:16<mgmuscari>Timmaexx: what Yexo said
16:17<Timmaexx>Thank you very Much!
16:17<mgmuscari>i'm using ubuntu 9.10 64 bit and it fixed the problem for me
16:17-!-Cow [~cameronwi@S0106000f6629a51c.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #openttd
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16:17<mgmuscari>with both 0.7.1 and the beta
16:17<Cow>hello?
16:17<gathers>mgmuscari, I have a gazillion firefox windows/tabs (forgot how to bookmark), so I'll leave the testing to others :)
16:17<Yexo>hello Cow
16:17<Cow>hey
16:18<@Rubidium>thanks mgmuscari
16:18-!-worldemar [~woldemar@188.122.240.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:18<mgmuscari>Rubidium: NP
16:19<mgmuscari>lol, that's my first OSS contribution :p
16:19<gathers>Should something about SDL_AUDIODRIVER=pulse be added to the notes as well? (if that works under karmic)
16:19<mgmuscari>rather anticlimactic
16:19<mgmuscari>gathers: maybe that would be better in a bug report... as a workaround for the default PA config
16:20<mgmuscari>since that's actually a source code change
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16:20<Timmaexx>http://paste.openttd.org/220833 isn't that kind of SPAM?
16:20<gathers>it's not a source code change
16:20<mgmuscari>gathers: where did you make that change?
16:21<gathers>I just launch it that way from bash
16:21<mgmuscari>oh you pass it as a switch
16:21<PeterT>Yexo: I have a patch http://users.tt-forums.net/petert/files/minor_fixes.diff
16:22<Yexo>+Open trunk/openttd_vs[8|9]0.sln <- that line is not needed
16:22<gathers>mgmuscari, yes, set the environment variable for sdl
16:22<Yexo>the original line is valid syntax
16:22<mgmuscari>gathers: if that works it's worth mentioning as users without sudo or root privileges would be able to simply make that change to their shortcut
16:22<PeterT>Yexo: ok
16:22<gathers>mgmuscari, works for me, but I can't test under karmic
16:22<PeterT>should I upload a new patch?
16:23<mgmuscari>i'll give it a try
16:23<Yexo>nah, I'll fix that
16:23-!-PeterT [~PeterT@c-65-96-203-35.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Bye]
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16:24<mgmuscari>brb
16:24-!-Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AFAEA7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
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16:24*Cow slaps welshdragon around a bit with a large trout
16:24<Cow>haha
16:24*Cow slaps welshdragon around a bit with a large trout
16:24*Cow slaps welshdragon around a bit with a large trout
16:25<Cow>take that
16:25<Cow>:P
16:25<dragonhorseboy>-_-
16:25-!-mgmuscari [~mgmuscari@pool-71-187-112-171.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd
16:26<mgmuscari>meh... i removed that line from my default.pa, bounced my x session again, and now the sound is working fine anyway...
16:26-!-JVassie [~TheExile^@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #openttd
16:26<Cow>i don't like that everyone can see your ip address
16:26<Yexo>Cow: is this in any way relevant here? Otherwise leave it in #tycoon
16:26<Cow>nope
16:26<welshdragon>Cow: do i know you?
16:26<Cow>yes
16:26<Cow>i was on Jonty's server yesterday
16:26-!-Timmaexx [~quassel@port-92-201-194-214.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:26<welshdragon>ah
16:27<Cow>got banned
16:27<welshdragon>well, please don't
16:27<Cow>dunno why?
16:27<weaselboy246>wonder why
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16:28<dragonhorseboy>wb andythenorth
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16:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18703 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Feature-ish: allow virtually paying a percentage of the leg profit in feeder chains. This to give the user a better chance to get a feeder system without "losses".
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16:30<@Rubidium>mgmuscari: http://rbijker.net/openttd/sdl-issue.diff <- I've slightly rewritten it, does that look okay? (Don't have Ubuntu, so I'm far from sure about it)
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16:31<mgmuscari>Rubidium: yes that seems fine. a few typos
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16:34<frosch123>night
16:34<@Rubidium>only found one (bye instead of by)
16:34<@Rubidium>night frosch123
16:34-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fda15.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:34<mgmuscari>change Selecting to Select
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16:35-!-weaselboy246 [risugami@67-54-241-148.cust.wildblue.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:35<mgmuscari>and "Under recent version" -> "Under recent versions"
16:35<mgmuscari>sorry, i'm pedantic about grammar
16:35-!-worldemar [~woldemar@81.28.163.63] has joined #openttd
16:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r18704 /trunk/docs/Readme_Windows_MSVC.txt: -Doc: update the 'Compiling OpenTTD using Microsoft Visual C++' documentation
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16:37<@Rubidium>mgmuscari: doesn't matter; the grammar should be right (I'm just not that good in grammar)
16:38<@Rubidium>anyhow, new version. Begin of last paragraph is changed
16:39-!-tennel [~andreas@pD9528A2F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
16:45<mgmuscari>ok
16:45<mgmuscari>sounds good
16:45-!-welshdragon [~markmac@147.143.254.214] has joined #openttd
16:47<Cow>wb
16:48<mgmuscari>i've never been clear on what affects industry "levels" ... is there an article somewhere that explains how to increase the productivity of say, a forest?
16:48-!-Timmaexx [~quassel@port-92-201-194-214.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:48<Xaroth>by using it a lot
16:48<KingJ>Provide a good service to it, and the output will gradually rise
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16:49<mgmuscari>hmm, this depot always has a very low amount of wood waiting, and a train visits frequently to fill up on wood, yet the service is still poor...
16:49<gathers>mgmuscari, take a look at http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics
16:50<mgmuscari>perhaps because i turned on smooth economy
16:51<mgmuscari>just taking a while
16:53<gathers>I always try to keep one train at each station loading fully, and if I have the money get a statue, to keep the ratings up
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16:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18705 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Update: the known bugs document about the PulseAudio issue based on mgmuscari's solution/workaround
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16:59<andythenorth>if you want to increase industry production, try using road vehicles on a feeder service
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17:04<gathers>r18703 gave me an idea.. might it be possible to save the transfer profit somewhere (in vehicle order list perhaps?) and always use the previously saved value to decide how large a fraction of the profits to award for that leg?
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>gathers: how is that supposed to adjust too high estimates over time?
17:05<@Rubidium>gathers: technically it is possible, but that requires a load more memory/savegame space
17:06<gathers>if you have the profit for the whole chain, then you can find the fraction on each transfer (if the route is the same)
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>gathers: and what about very complex transfer systems?
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>gathers: especially cargodistr
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>-r
17:07<gathers>Eddi|zuHause, well, it wouldn't matter it it's wrong once, but if running averages are kept it'd work out eventually?
17:07<mgmuscari>hmm
17:07<mgmuscari>shorter, more frequent trains help
17:07<mgmuscari>to maintain a good rating
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>mgmuscari: typically you have either "always a train waiting" or you push the rating by short distance road vehicles (especially in towns)
17:08<gathers>I was thinking something like a feeder_payment_share per station order, calculated using running averages
17:08<planetmaker>g'night
17:09<mgmuscari>yeah i started this game too early for road vehicles...
17:09<andythenorth>bye planetmaker
17:10<andythenorth>mgmuscari: when did you start?
17:10<gathers>Eddi|zuHause, I was hoping cargodist might "know" how many transfers are planned, but poking around the source makes me think otherwise :(
17:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r18706 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs):
17:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Cleanup: remove docs/Manual.txt and docs/OSX_install_instructions.txt, the contents of those are already in readme.txt and they were outdated.
17:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Add docs/obm_format.txt and docs/obs_format.txt to Makefile.bundle
17:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: Add several documentation files to the windows installer
17:11<Yexo>gathers: if you play with cargodist you shouldn't use transfers at all, the cargo will be transferred automatically when needed
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure about cargodist, but cargodest only knows the next hop
17:12<mgmuscari>1914
17:14<gathers>Yexo, yes, I know
17:14<Yexo>gathers: sorry, I read back more now and see you're talking about something differnt, so pelase ignore my comment
17:15<gathers>np :)
17:16<mgmuscari>hmmm... is there any way to automatically extend a train when it goes in for maintenance? i know i can autoreplace the engine....
17:16<mgmuscari>let's say i wanted to match all trains that have engine-flatcar-flatcar-flatcar and then add 3 more flatcars
17:17<mgmuscari>sort of like regular expression matching
17:17-!-tennel [~andreas@pD9528A2F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>no, that is not implemented
17:19<Yexo>see also http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46582
17:21-!-Hyppy [~Hyppy@143.148.189.72.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
17:22<@Rubidium>Yexo: the installer changes are fine; it seems to behave as it should
17:22<Yexo>cool :)
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17:28<Cow>brb
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17:29<Zuu>hmm, a regular train expression sonuds interesting
17:29<PeterT>you don't need to annouce it for us, Cow
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17:38<PeterT>Yexo: what do you think of my patch?
17:38*welshdragon tries compiling openttd again...
17:39<Yexo>PeterT: see r18704
17:39<Yexo>the file was outdated indeed, but I made some other changes
17:39<PeterT>ahh
17:39<PeterT>cool :-)
17:39<andythenorth>good night
17:39<PeterT>you didn't say "Based on idea by petert"
17:39<PeterT>:-(
17:39<Yexo>night andythenorth
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17:39<PeterT>night, andythenorth
17:40<welshdragon>same error as before.... http://paste.openttd.org/220830
17:40<Yexo>PeterT: I'd have done that if I used any of your patch, but basically i rewrote all of it
17:40<PeterT>it's the idea... anyway
17:42<Terkhen>good night andythenorth
17:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r18707 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Fix (r17802): local variables should not be accessed after the function returns
17:43<welshdragon>PeterT: did you get any errors when compiling 18678 + cargodist?
17:44<PeterT>No, welsh
17:44<welshdragon>it seems weird that I do on ubuntu
17:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18708 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Feature: [NewGRF] Add support for custom station foundation graphics.
17:45<welshdragon>what does printf_endian do?
17:45<welshdragon>somebody just asked me
17:46<Yexo>if it's that guy that got a compiler error trying to compile openttd: it doesn't matter, it's a compiler bug
17:46<@Rubidium>welshdragon: open the file endian_check.cpp and try to find the function printf_endian. Then look at what it does
17:46-!-Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd
17:48<welshdragon>trying to find it
17:48<welshdragon>it's a file apparently
17:48<Yexo>endian_check.cpp is indeed a file, it can be found in any source checkout
17:49<welshdragon>where?
17:49<Yexo>in src/
17:49<@Rubidium>lmgtfy?
17:50<PeterT>Rubidium: He's asking a valid question
17:50<@Rubidium>http://lmgtfy.com/?q=endian_check.cpp
17:50<Yexo>and has been given an answer already
17:51<welshdragon>http://paste.openttd.org/220843
17:51<Yexo>it's that file indeed
17:52<welshdragon>xD
17:54<@Rubidium>PeterT: asking where to find the transfer payment calculation would be a valid question, asking where to find a file his compile complains about isn't really a valid question because actually typing "find . -iname endian_check.cpp" results in the correct answer in seconds, the whole "where can I find it" stuff takes more time
17:55<@Rubidium>I'm giving an unique keyword to search for, then you really should be able to find that
17:55<welshdragon>the people who i'm getting to help me are confused
17:55<PeterT>Rubidium: Would asking were to find the parameters code be a valid question?
17:55<welshdragon>the coding that is done in C is confusing them
17:56<@Rubidium>if C confuses them, then how can they be of any help to your C(++) compiler problem?
17:56<welshdragon>xD
17:58<Yexo>PeterT: yes, the answer would be openttd.cpp
17:58<Yexo>as I've told you before
17:58<PeterT>I knew that, you told me before
17:58<PeterT>was just asking if that type of thing is a good question
17:58<PeterT>not like "wheeRz my compizer?"
17:59<Yexo>yes, or I wouldn't have answered it that way
18:00<@Rubidium>PeterT: asking for things that can be trivially found are usually invalid questions
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18:02<welshdragon>so, any ideas what's wrong with endian_check.cpp?
18:03<@Rubidium>welshdragon: nothing
18:03<@Rubidium>there's something wrong with your compiler setup
18:03<welshdragon>-_-
18:03<welshdragon>i followed http://wiki.openttd.org/GNU/Linux#Debian_and_Ubuntu to the letter
18:04<Yexo>try instaling a newer or older version of gcc
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>typically, if people say that, they didn't :p
18:04<PeterT>he did, trust me
18:04<@Rubidium>doesn't mean that Ubuntu doesn't ship a broken compiler, or that something fishy is going on that broke your installation (HDD corruption?)
18:04<Zuu>Then that guide was not for your version of your distribution. Or you have something in your setup that differs from the one imagned by the author of the page.
18:04<welshdragon>Zuu: it is
18:04<welshdragon>it's for Ubuntu
18:05<Zuu>Yep, but is it for the same version of ubuntu?
18:05-!-helb [~helb@84.244.90.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:05<Yexo>even if it is the version of gcc shipped with that version of ubuntu could've been changed
18:06<welshdragon>it's the versionof ubuntu that's on their repositories
18:07<PeterT>welshdragon: Have you tried deleting the folder and re-downloading the source? Your endian_check.cpp might have broken during transport
18:07<@peter1138>install and run debsums :)
18:07<welshdragon>heh
18:07<Zuu>or you got a broken Ram, that could cause many interesting things. :-)
18:08<welshdragon>even hackier way of doing it: forcing endian_check to say it's little endian
18:08<@Rubidium>welshdragon: it's *very* likely that you're going to run into more problems if even that simple line causes gcc to crash
18:09<welshdragon>it's worth a try...
18:09<welshdragon>;)
18:09-!-Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds]
18:09<Zuu>If you experience that other programs crash, a memtest86(+) is recommended I would say.
18:10<welshdragon>Zuu: it;s got new ram
18:10<@Rubidium>PeterT: even on broken source code gcc should NOT crash. If gcc crashes that is 100% of the time a bug in gcc.
18:10<Yexo>maybe the new ram was broken at the time you bought it
18:10<welshdragon>trust me
18:10<welshdragon>it's not my RAM
18:10<@Rubidium>where I 'assume' that broken ram is a gcc bug too (even though it isn't)
18:11<Zuu>I had to send back new ram once because it failed on memtest86 before installing the OS.
18:11<@Rubidium>it's at least NOT a bug in the source file
18:11-!-slas [~chatzilla@25.201.216.81.static.s-o.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:11<@peter1138>DOA is a fairly common error...
18:12*peter1138 ponders syncing cargodest
18:12<PeterT>does #openttd have psig stats somewhere?
18:12<@Rubidium>I hope you don't; you'll go crazy on the GUI code
18:12<Yexo>peter1138: wasn't the new order code a huge obstacle?
18:13<Zuu>Does cargodest has something worthfull that cargodist do not have?
18:13<@Rubidium>heh, that code has been massively rewritten too
18:13<@peter1138>technically no. i just didn't grok what celestar had done ;p
18:14<Yexo>Zuu: I think it's less bug-prone because it handles everything in one thread
18:14<Yexo>cargodist uses multiple threads and sometimes needs to wait on them for computations to finish, that can easily give desyncs if done wrong
18:14<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> I hope you don't; you'll go crazy on the GUI code <-- i know that feeling ;)
18:15<Yexo>at least that's what I understood from several forum posts, I haven't read any code of cargodist myself
18:15-!-JVassie [~TheExile^@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:15<Yexo>I doubt cargodest changes soo much gui code that that's going to be a problem
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>afair only the station window
18:16<@peter1138>most of it was just different content in widgets
18:16<welshdragon>ok, so I got the source again
18:17<welshdragon>(from SVN)
18:17<welshdragon>after getting it to the correct version and trying to patch it fails
18:17<Yexo>patching fails or compiling fails?
18:17<Yexo>if compiling fails, can you compile the code without any patch?
18:17<welshdragon>* patching file src/station_cmd.cpp
18:18<welshdragon>* hunk #1 succeeded
18:18<welshdragon>* hunk #2 failed at 3344
18:18<Yexo>most likely you didn't update to the correct version before patching
18:18<welshdragon>Yexo: i did
18:18-!-tennel [~andreas@pD9528A2F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
18:19<Yexo>what is the output of "svnversion" and what patch are you trying to apply?
18:19<welshdragon>Yexo: 18678m
18:20<welshdragon>and cargodist r18678
18:20<Yexo>is that the only patch? You didn't apply another patch first?
18:20<welshdragon>that's the only patch
18:20<Yexo>got a link to the patch?
18:20<welshdragon>http://fickzoo.com/fonsinchen/patches/against_trunk/cargodist_r18678.diff
18:21-!-darkmonkey [~josh@94-194-62-217.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has quit []
18:22<@Rubidium>that patch is definitely not for that version of trunk
18:23<welshdragon>then how did PeterT compile it?
18:23<welshdragon>:/
18:23<@Rubidium>hmm, never mind... I applied it incorrectly
18:23<@Rubidium>it works fine for that revision of trunk
18:23<@peter1138>heh
18:23<@peter1138>yikes, 289KB of patch
18:23<Yexo>applies correctly
18:23<@peter1138>welshdragon, dodgy ram
18:23<Yexo>welshdragon: try "svn revert -R ." and then try to apply again
18:23<@Rubidium>and endian_check.cpp compiles fine
18:23<@peter1138>(or dodgy hdd, but ram is more likely)
18:24<@Rubidium>Yexo: that doesn't remove the added unversioned files
18:24<Yexo>oh, right
18:24<welshdragon>Yexo: it doesn't work
---Logclosed Sun Jan 03 18:24:26 2010
---Logopened Sun Jan 03 18:24:36 2010
18:24-!-mikegrb [~michael@mail.thegrebs.com] has joined #openttd
18:24-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 126 nicks [5 ops, 0 halfops, 2 voices, 119 normal]
18:24<Yexo>welshdragon: notice the dot at the end
18:24<Yexo>and do "rm -r src/linkgraph/" before trying to patch again
18:25<Yexo>and rm src/core/multimap.hpp
18:25<Yexo>and src/saveload/linkgraph_sl.cpp
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>"svn status | grep '?' | xargs rm"
18:26<@Rubidium>rm -rf * && svn up ;)
18:26-!-Irssi: Join to #openttd was synced in 105 secs
18:26<welshdragon>Rubidium: lolno
18:26<Zuu>It works as long as you don't have any importent documents in the directory.
18:27<Zuu>important*
18:27<Yexo>both solution are fine, unless some useful files are stored inside the checkout
18:27<welshdragon>ok, i've followed Yexo's instructions
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: put those "important files" into ignore first ;)
18:29<welshdragon>http://dashavoo.pastebin.com/d10132b3 might be a solution
18:29<welshdragon>(thanks to dashavoo on AFNet for that)
18:29<Yexo>it's a workaround, not a solution
18:29<Yexo>your compiler is still broken
18:30<Yexo>whether you trust a broken compiler is up to you
18:30<welshdragon>well, no
18:30<@Rubidium>Yexo: why are you so stubborn in saying his compiler is broken? welshdragon is certain it isn't
18:31<Yexo>oh, right
18:31<Yexo>hardware is ok, compiler is ok, source code is ok, so there is no problem
18:31<@peter1138>it's working :D
18:31<@Rubidium>your support call will now be terminated...
18:32<@peter1138>after taking your paypal details
18:32<welshdragon>i'll throw some ubuntu disks in the post
18:32<welshdragon>;)
18:33-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1DF8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:33<Zuu>Are ubuntu disks the new kind of post cards? ;-)
18:33<welshdragon>yes
18:33<@Rubidium>Zuu: it's called spam
18:34<PeterT>yes, they get frisbeed at you and you must catch them with your computer
18:35<hellerrr>argh
18:35<hellerrr>i hate this
18:35<hellerrr>http://heller.huono.org/openttd/Tuomela%20Transport,%202044-12-04.png
18:35<hellerrr>that train was waiting a route for less than 2 secs and then turned to another direction
18:35<hellerrr>and made a clog
18:35<hellerrr>how can i stop them making it?
18:35-!-hellerrr is now known as heller
18:36<Zuu>You didn't save on the arrows :-)
18:36<Yexo>heller: if you type "set wait_for_pbs_path" in the ingame console (when that savegame is laoded), what's the output?
18:36<@Rubidium>Yexo: it's not a path signal it turned around 'for'
18:37<@peter1138>ah, impromper signalling
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>need to set the other wait times to 255 as well
18:37<Yexo>oh, kinda hard to spot with those signals
18:38-!-asilv [~as@h-62-142-160-55.joensuunelli.fi] has quit []
18:38<heller>set wait_for_pbs_path is now 255
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>heller: and wait_oneway_signal and wait_twoway_signal or something like that
18:38<Zuu>heller: That would be enough if you were only using path based signals.
18:39<heller>hmm
18:39<heller>i am?
18:39<@peter1138>you're not
18:39<Zuu>You are also using block signals.
18:39<welshdragon>ok, Yexo's way didn't work
18:39<heller>what is path based?
18:39<Zuu>They use some other settings as pointed out by Eddie.
18:39<welshdragon>nor did modifyng the file
18:39<welshdragon>*sigh*
18:39<Yexo>welshdragon: what's the nwe output?
18:40<Zuu>heller: For documentation on the different signal types: http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals
18:40<PeterT>what was wrong with my answer? 68.149.161.63
18:40<heller>do i have to reload game etc or is the effect instant?
18:40-!-weaselboy246 [risugami@67-54-241-148.cust.wildblue.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:40<PeterT>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=845381#p845381
18:40<Yexo>and what part of "my way" didn't work? I only explained how to clean your working directory and patch again
18:40-!-weaselboy246 [risugami@67-54-241-148.cust.wildblue.net] has joined #openttd
18:41<welshdragon>http://dashavoo.pastebin.com/ddcfb971
18:41<Yexo>heller: the effect is instand, but you'll still ahve to manually reverse any trains that have already turned
18:41<@peter1138>welshdragon, yes, definitely working fine
18:41<PeterT>does #openttd have pisg stats anywhere?
18:41<Yexo>and you have to execute that ocmmand in the main menu to change it for new games
18:41<@Rubidium>PeterT: that your answer doesn't work for trains turning around at block signals; actually if trains now turn around at block signals and end up in a path signaled block they are completely locked, they won't move at all without manual intervention
18:42<@peter1138>welshdragon, absolutely no memory problem there at all, honest
18:42<welshdragon>peter1138: don't lie
18:42<welshdragon>itis my ram isn't it?
18:42<@peter1138>23:10 < welshdragon> trust me
18:42<@peter1138>23:10 < welshdragon> it's not my RAM
18:42<@peter1138>so it can't be
18:42<welshdragon>:(
18:42<Yexo>welshdragon: if you don't believe us, do you at least believe gcc itself? "...: internal compiler error: Segmentation fault" "#Please submit a full bug report,"
18:42<PeterT>why do trains turn around at block signals
18:42<PeterT>is there a setting for that?
18:43<welshdragon>hmm
18:43<welshdragon>*sigh*
18:43<Yexo>since the error is in a differnt file this time I highly doubt it's gcc
18:43<Zuu>PeterT: Yes
18:43<PeterT>ok
18:43<welshdragon>i can't afford to buy new RAM
18:43<PeterT>are there pisg stats for #openttd?
18:43<PeterT>nothing on Google
18:43<Yexo>PeterT: yes, wait_oneway_signal and wait_twoway_signal
18:43<Zuu>"Eddi|zuHause heller: and wait_oneway_signal and wait_twoway_signal or something like that"
18:43<@peter1138>i thought you said you had new ram?
18:43<+glx>RAM or HDD, but some hardware has problem
18:43<PeterT>Yexo: I see.
18:43<Yexo>keeping to ask the same question isn't going to help you
18:43<welshdragon>peter1138: the RAM is fairly new
18:43<Yexo>if anybody has an answer you'll get it
18:43<PeterT>was wondering what those were
18:44<PeterT>Yexo: yeah, I know *embarresed*
18:44<Rhamphoryncus>heller: the key to understanding path based signals is that instead of defining "blocks" which can only handle one train at a time, they instead define "stopping points" with reservation happening on a per-tile basis
18:44<Zuu>welshdragon: Did you run a memory test program on your ram after you installed it?
18:44<@peter1138>it could just be a dodgy cpu
18:44<@peter1138>or motherboard
18:45<+glx>definetely hardware ;)
18:45<Zuu>If memtest or prime shows an error you should be lucky to know for sure where the error is.
18:45<welshdragon>what's to say that it isn't the source that is fbar'd
18:45<welshdragon>*fubar'd
18:45<Yexo>PeterT: those are very old (jan 2007): http://electricpotential.net/ircstats/openttd.html
18:45<Zuu>Finding motherboard errors are quite hard. You only know after having replaced the mother bord for sure :-)
18:45<PeterT>will they be updated?
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: have you done a memtest?
18:46<PeterT>doesn't DorpsGek have logs?
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: i think they died with _42_
18:46*welshdragon can do one now
18:46<Yexo>no public logs at least, dunno if it keeps logs
18:46<Rhamphoryncus>heller: for the exit path off an intersection you want the next stopping point pushed far enough back that the train won't block the intersection
18:46<PeterT>" * Darkvater slaps Bjarni "
18:46<guru3>Yexo: http://electricpotential.net/ircstats/openttd2.html new ones
18:46<PeterT>thanks guru3
18:46<Yexo>thegrebs.com has #openttd logs
18:47<@peter1138>@seen bjarni
18:47<@DorpsGek>peter1138: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 16 weeks, 5 days, 3 hours, 46 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <Bjarni> Belugas: there is no reason to write to PeterT. We already know he is unable to read anyway :P
18:47<+glx>guru3's site IIRC ;)
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: that's a "very typical" quote ;)
18:47<@Rubidium>oh... good old igor2code
18:47<PeterT>peter1138 has the most lines
18:47<PeterT>congrats peter1138
18:47<Yexo>thanks guru3
18:47<guru3>i had some down time on the stats when my server crashed
18:47<@peter1138>gosh
18:47<guru3>but it should all be up to date now
18:47<PeterT>* dih slaps Belugas
18:47<@peter1138>how did that happen
18:47<PeterT>lol
18:47<@peter1138>considering i was gone for years
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>i find it funny how guru3 idles here for years, and pops up at the right moment to advertise his site :p
18:48<PeterT>lol -> "Apokalipz wrote an average of 75.00 words per line. "
18:48<@Rubidium>oh noes... now PeterT has a reason to spam this channel even more :(
18:48<+glx>HL I guess Eddi|zuHause
18:48<PeterT>maybe Apokalipz wrote 75 words once and left
18:48<guru3>Eddi|zuHause: there's a thing in irssi for highlights
18:48<guru3>i set it to my url...
18:48<+glx>Rubidium: too bad now we have a reason to ban him :)
18:48<welshdragon>what am I looking for in this MemTest?
18:48<guru3>and now it's been so long that i've forgotten the command for setting it
18:48<fonsinchen>I'll comment on those statements made about cargodist before (by Yexo and peter1138):
18:49<welshdragon>there's 0 errors
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: anything that says "error" after running for a whole night
18:49<fonsinchen>I know the issue with desyncs and I have designed the threading with that in mind.
18:49<welshdragon>i have to leave it a whole night O_O
18:50<@peter1138>welshdragon, are you running memtest86?
18:50<welshdragon>yes
18:50<fonsinchen>All desync bugs in cargodist so far were not caused by design problems and I haven't seen a desync report for a long time now.
18:50<@peter1138>the one that runs instead of linux?
18:50<welshdragon>yes
18:50<guru3>really did wish i remember what that command was now
18:50<@peter1138>great
18:50<@peter1138>it should be still running
18:50<welshdragon>it is
18:50<@peter1138>it'll take a while
18:50<PeterT>perhaps a command @logs is in order?
18:50<welshdragon>it's on test #4
18:50<@Rubidium>please wait till it's fully finished with all its loops before saying it isn't the hardware
18:51<+glx>first tests are fast :)
18:51<welshdragon>yeah
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>one of the later tests showed a sticky bit for me
18:51<welshdragon>this one's taking longer
18:51<PeterT>wow, yorick really has been on this channel for a while
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure, might be test 7 or 8
18:51<fonsinchen>And the patch is large, but I keep it divided into several smaller chunks.
18:51<PeterT>and has been kicked 55 times?
18:51<@peter1138>it'll run multiple passes
18:51<+glx>only?
18:51<guru3>ah, it's /hilight!
18:52<@peter1138>sometimes things don't get picked up on the first few
18:52<guru3>and now i can fade back into oblivion to once again jump at at unsuspecting chatters
18:52<@peter1138>so you need to run it at least a day
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>is that the guy we banned for a month without noticing?
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i say too many lines...
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>especially between 0 and 6
18:53<welshdragon>did any of you devs notice the error was in a different file?
18:53-!-mgmuscari [~mgmuscari@pool-71-187-112-171.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #openttd
18:53<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: Yorick?
18:53-!-dashavoo [~moabraham@dashavoo.com] has joined #openttd
18:53<PeterT>lol you banned him
18:53<Yexo>yes welshdragon, and that only confirms that's it's likely a hardware problem
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: it's irrelevant, it's not the fault of the file
18:53<mgmuscari>is it possible to change the size of the fonts used for the map legends? changing the font faces and sizes in openttd.cfg doesn't seem to do anything for me
18:53*welshdragon hifives dashavoo
18:54<Yexo>mgmuscari: change both small_size and small_font
18:54<Yexo>smalL_font should have the name of a font you want to use
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>mgmuscari: must also enforce using a font other than the builtin one
18:54<Yexo>small_size only works if you use a custom font
18:54<mgmuscari>Yexo: is there a case under which it will go back to the default?
18:54-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:54<Yexo>just remove the line from openttd.cfg and it'll get the defautl value again
18:55<mgmuscari>i mean
18:55<+glx>it defaults to TTD sprites
18:55<@Rubidium>if the font can't be found I reckon (or the name is empty)
18:55<+glx>unless TTD sprites miss chars
18:55<mgmuscari>Rubidium: alright, that's what i figured.... how does it expect gnu/linux fonts to be specified?
18:55<mgmuscari>by name or by filename?
18:56<@Rubidium>something that fontconfig can resolve
18:56<@Rubidium>and IIRC full paths to fonts work too
18:56<@Rubidium>full as in absolute
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18:59<mgmuscari>ah, thanks
18:59<mgmuscari>anything that shows in fc-list
18:59<+glx>yup
19:01<welshdragon>ooh
19:01<welshdragon>i have 2 errores
19:02<welshdragon>*errors
19:02<@peter1138>there you go then
19:02<PeterT>helller, your name is a combination of "Hellen" and "Keller"
19:02<welshdragon>how can i tell what it is?
19:03<welshdragon>the hard drive is only 2 months old
19:04<@peter1138>...
19:04<@peter1138>if it's in memtest... then it's memory...
19:04<welshdragon>RAM or hard drive?
19:04<@peter1138>memory...
19:04<dashavoo>welshdragon: memory is RAM
19:04<welshdragon>right
19:05<welshdragon>.... shit :(
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: if it's not older than 2 years you can probably get it replaced
19:06-!-KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-35-5.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: also if it's isolated to a few sections, you can add something like "memmap=1M$0x18e00000" to the kernel line in the boot loader
19:06<welshdragon>it is
19:07<welshdragon>they are errors within 20MB of each other
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>then read the documentation for memmap
19:08<@peter1138>well, let the memtest finish
19:08<@peter1138>could well be more
19:09<Zuu>Also, IIRC windows can not do memmap so if you dual boot it may be a good idea to replace the ram.
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>write down the addresses anyway ;)
19:09-!-mgmuscari [~mgmuscari@pool-71-187-112-171.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
19:10<+glx>yes and if you can, test each module separately
19:10-!-slas [~AndChat@25.201.216.81.static.s-o.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #openttd
19:10<Terkhen>good night
19:10<welshdragon>ifailing address 00021dd4230
19:10-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@93.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...]
19:10<welshdragon>failing address: 00020dd4250
19:11<welshdragon>only those 2
19:11<+glx>let it finish :)
19:11<welshdragon>and it's on test #7
19:11-!-Illegal_Alien [~Illegal_A@ip4da39612.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-]
19:11<+glx>@base 16 10 20dd4250
19:11<@DorpsGek>glx: 551371344
19:13<@peter1138>meaningless ;)
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19:49<welshdragon>meh
19:49<welshdragon>cba to compile
19:50<@peter1138>oh, you stopped the memtest early?
19:51<welshdragon>it kept going in circles
19:51<welshdragon>so was evidently finished
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20:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it does that, because some memory errors show only after running for several times
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20:29<PeterT>why is the limit 15 companies for a multiplayer game?
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>because 8 wasn't enough for some people
20:30<PeterT>no, but why isn't it more
20:30<PeterT>We just had a game where 15 companies wasn't enough
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>because that needed more space in the map array
20:30<PeterT>is that a bug?
20:31<Yexo>no
20:31<PeterT>can the 15 company limit be extended someady?
20:31<PeterT>*someday
20:31<Yexo>yes, but it's very unlikely
20:31<PeterT>why?
20:31<Eddi|zuHause>it's really unlikely
20:31<PeterT>desyncs and such?
20:31<Eddi|zuHause>because i said it above.
20:31<Yexo><Eddi|zuHause> because that needed more space in the map array
20:31<PeterT>Sorry
20:31<PeterT>better question: What does map "array" mean
20:32<Yexo>do you know what an array is?
20:32<Eddi|zuHause>array is a programming concept of storing a long list of uniform data structures
20:33<Eddi|zuHause>so if you have 1 million map tiles, you put them in an array of length 1 million
20:34<Eddi|zuHause>and that's the map array
20:35<Eddi|zuHause>the "problem" is, that for an array to work, all tiles must use the same amount of bits
20:36<+glx>anyway the map array is not the only problem :)
20:37<PeterT>so you would need to increase the "array" number
20:38<Yexo>the amount of memory per tile would have to be increased
20:38<Eddi|zuHause>increasing the size of the tiles is possible, but should be done _very_ rarely
20:39<Yexo>it's currently 9 bytes I think, each extra byte added takes up 4mb for a 2048x2048 map
20:39<Yexo>so unless there is a very good reason for it it won't be increased
20:39<PeterT>is there a patch to increase the max companies somewhere?
20:40<PeterT>if so, at least a patch would be *out* there
20:40<Yexo>no
20:40<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
20:40<PeterT>so people could use it
20:40<+glx>network is also a problem
20:40<+glx>too big packets
20:41<+glx>IIRC
20:41<PeterT>too big packets = desyncs
20:41<Yexo>no, just crashes / errors / not being able to join a multiplayer game, not sure what exactly
20:41<Eddi|zuHause>you have a very wrong understanding of what a "desync" is
20:42<PeterT>that's probably true
20:42<+glx>anyway servers are already rarely full :)
20:42<Eddi|zuHause>i think the UDP packets that are used for server advertising have the problem with limited size
20:42<+glx>so I don't see the need for more players on a server
20:43<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, "you have a very wrong understanding" is enough
20:43<PeterT>glx: You didn't see our previous IS2.1.1 game, then
20:44<+glx>so you want to add bugs in an already buggy build ?
20:44<PeterT>http://openttd.jontysewell.net/saves/2.2.1/join_4b411a8e.sav
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>really, you should not count on the 15 company limit being changed any time soon
20:48<PeterT>I see
20:49<@peter1138>it took quite some effort to increase it from 8
20:49<@peter1138>plus there are only 16 company colours
20:51<__ln>15 companies is too much anyway
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20:54<@peter1138>--2304-- VALGRIND INTERNAL ERROR: Valgrind received a signal 11 (SIGSEGV) - exiting
20:54<@peter1138>--2304-- si_code=80; Faulting address: 0x0; sp: 0x403C8AE70
20:54<@peter1138>valgrind: the 'impossible' happened: Killed by fatal signal
20:54<@peter1138>nice
21:10<@peter1138>got it
21:11<PeterT>got what
21:11<__ln>it
21:12<PeterT>can I have an it
21:12<PeterT>it.it
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21:18<Eddi|zuHause>no.
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21:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18709 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Fix (r10227,FS#3464): Animation buffer for 32bpp-anim blitter was only validated during sprite blitting, other drawing operations didn't check it. Initial startup and window resize could therefore lead to crash.
21:33<@peter1138>^ that
21:34<@peter1138>hope it still compiles for other systems, i can only test on linux+sdl ;)
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22:58<De_Ghosty>4 mb?
22:58<De_Ghosty>no pronlem
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 04 00:00:31 2010