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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-01-05

---Logopened Tue Jan 05 00:00:33 2010
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00:35<sparrL>very annoying habit on the ottd wiki...
00:35<sparrL>the first paragraph says X
00:35<sparrL>then two pages down you get "as of rNNNNN... not X"
00:36<sparrL>where NNNNN might be years old
00:37<roboboy>then add the tag to say that the page needs updating
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00:49<sparrL>it doesn't need updating
00:49<sparrL>it was updated last time the behavior changed
00:49<sparrL>the process of updating needs to be changed
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01:28<@Rubidium>sparrL: the problem is that at the moment something gets changed it takes up to a year before the change ends up in the stable versions. As such you can't change the whole page straight away.
01:31<@Rubidium>feel free to reorder the pages so it mentions the old behaviour at the bottom though
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01:38<Eoin>wow
01:38<Eoin>ive stayed up all night
01:38<Eoin>playing ottd :|
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01:47<@peter1138>morning
01:48<Eoin>ooh your up early
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01:51<Eoin>anyone wanna play some cargodist?
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02:09<Terkhen>good morning
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03:34<bartavelle>hello
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04:44<George>peter1138: New GRF inFS#3477 provided
04:44<George>If you need something else - let me know
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07:10<tennel>hello, have you ever thought about translating the webpage into other languages?
07:11<Ammler>tennel: you might notice the "en" in the url
07:12<tennel>yes
07:12<Ammler>but the webmaster is a bit busy ;-)
07:12<tennel>ok... :)
07:13<tennel>i could help u with the german version
07:13<Ammler>I guess, it isn't the lack of translators, more the lack of interface for them...
07:16<tennel>ok, you mean that the translators can not work on the web page?
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07:25<roboboy>hello
07:27<Timmaexx>hi
07:27<Xaroth>tennel: he means that there is no webpage for the translators to translate stuff for the website.
07:27<Xaroth>not yet, at least.
07:28<tennel>ok, thx, i hope in the near future :)
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07:42<Mark__T>hi, is there no ai in 1.0.0 beta1 source release?
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07:46<Yexo>no, you'll have to download an AI via the online content downloading system
07:47<roboboy>is it The Online Content Downloading System or BaNaNaS
07:47<Yexo>BaNaNaS _is_ the online content downloading system
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07:48<roboboy>but whats its proper name or does the game not call it BaNaNaS
07:49<Yexo>the button ingame says "Check online content"
07:49<Yexo>the website says "BaNaNaS"
07:49<dragonhorseboy>hey yexo
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07:49<Yexo>first line on the website; "BaNaNaS is a content service..."
07:49<Yexo>so both names are fine
07:49<Yexo>hello dragonhorseboy
07:52<dragonhorseboy>what doing yexo?
07:52<Yexo>trying to fix openttd bugs
07:52<Yexo>and reading the forum
07:53<dragonhorseboy>heh ok
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07:55<Mark__T>Is there a way to pre install ai?
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07:56<Mark__T>I'm trying to create a reasonable package for foresight
07:56<Yexo>you can download some AIs and put the tar files in the bin/ai/ directory
07:58*dragonhorseboy still likes the Denver & Rio Grande AI .. aside to the stupid problem of it stealing my exact routes instead of building its own at times :p
07:58<Mark__T>what would be a good ai for starters?
08:02<Yexo>just try a few and find one that you like
08:04<dragonhorseboy>mark_t .. if you don't mind planes .. look up the WrightAI .. but I have to warn you it'll want to build at all larger towns from the start off :P (I know its a 'proof of concept' ai but still)
08:05<Noldo>Mark__T: just test some and see which one you like
08:07<Yexo>WrightAI was really never ment to be played against
08:07<Yexo>it's just a simple example AI
08:09<Mark__T>ok
08:09<Mark__T>thx
08:10<Mark__T>so far I like the beta1
08:10<dragonhorseboy>yexo well its not simple .. it earns too MUCH money even with early planes :P
08:10<dragonhorseboy>so its a good one for competition with especially if you're using it in IS2.1.1 hehe
08:10<Yexo>I didn't say it's easy to play against, it's an easy AI in terms of development, the code is simple
08:11<dragonhorseboy>hm true
08:11<Coco-Banana-Man>[13:58:25] * dragonhorseboy still likes the Denver & Rio Grande AI .. aside to the stupid problem of it stealing my exact routes instead of building its own at times :p <--- what about just forbidding sharing for it?
08:11<planetmaker>There are worse performing AIs
08:11<dragonhorseboy>yexo btw its funny to watch two WrightAI companies deck it off against each others...
08:11<planetmaker>But planes is the most simple concept in OpenTTD which there is
08:11<planetmaker>Also humans can make insane amounts of money using planes
08:11<dragonhorseboy>more than often in a few years one company has 20+ planes more than others
08:11<dragonhorseboy>coco...sharing isn't the problem...
08:12<dragonhorseboy>eg I build a route from coal mine #4 to powerplant #2 on map .. and soon the ai builds a duplicated route of the same nature
08:12<dragonhorseboy>doesn't happen all the times tho but still
08:12<Coco-Banana-Man>oh, ok
08:12<dragonhorseboy>coco at least that particular AI is a lot tracklaying smarter than the original AI
08:13<dragonhorseboy>doesn't loop onto itself etc .. I do kinda wish the station layout could use some reworking tho
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08:15<dragonhorseboy>planetmakers in SP I rarely use planes much and more than often its either small passenger or massive freight one. I guess I'm just being a bit too 'relastic' seeing how real planes eat so much more fuel compared to a modern highspeed train line. to our own ;)
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09:12<@Belugas>hello
09:15<|Terkhen|>hello Belugas
09:15-!-|Terkhen| is now known as Terkhen
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09:26<@Belugas>hello Terkhen :)
09:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r18730 /trunk/src/viewport_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3414]: new viewports didn't center on the correct position
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09:31<dragonhorseboy>hey belugas
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09:34<planetmaker>hello Belugas and happy new year to you :-)
09:34<dragonhorseboy>:)
09:37<@Belugas>happy new year to you all :)
09:37<@Belugas>shorter ;)
09:37<planetmaker>;-)
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09:51<Xaroth>happeh new year Belugas
09:54<dragonhorseboy>and same to you too xaroth ;)
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10:03<dragonhorseboy>seem to be a quiet day here as usual me think
10:04<SpComb>.
10:05<dragonhorseboy>heh hey spcomb
10:05<dragonhorseboy>spcomb you the one who was running that unnamed server right?
10:07<SpComb>mysterious unnamed server
10:07<dragonhorseboy>lol
10:07<dragonhorseboy>well when are you going to finish it so it could then be upgraded to a more standard build? ;)
10:07*dragonhorseboy had been looking at it in server list for some time
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10:11<SpComb>dragonhorseboy: I'm playing together with another guy
10:11<SpComb>hopefully soonish-ly, it's starting to get tiring
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10:14<dragonhorseboy>ok
10:15<SpComb>heard a surprisingly many people play/talk about OpenTTD over the last two weeks
10:16<dragonhorseboy>:p well for me the only thing I'll play is IS2.1.1 (or whatever is newer version next) alone naturally
10:16<dragonhorseboy>elsewise its only the patch for me if on my own
10:16<planetmaker>might be related to the channel you're talking in, SpComb
10:16<SpComb>IS alone?
10:16<SpComb>planetmaker: no, I mean, elsewhere
10:16<dragonhorseboy>spcomb yeah
10:16<SpComb>friends who I didn't know played OpenTTD, or just started
10:16<dragonhorseboy>if there's no sharing then whats the point of not just playing in the patch instead basically (to me)
10:16<planetmaker>1.0... catches attention
10:17<SpComb>partially that, although not even all of them had 1.0
10:17<dragonhorseboy>well I'm going off for a while now anyway
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11:04<DJNekkid>is the cargolables in this table: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0GeneralVariables#Cargo_translation_table_09_
11:04<DJNekkid>possible to use outside of that table?
11:05<DJNekkid>i.e. i could use them in an action 3/VarAction2 variable 47(iirc)
11:08<@peter1138>no
11:08<@peter1138>you use the index of the label
11:08<DJNekkid>okidoki :D
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11:09<@peter1138>so 0x27 would reference LIME
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11:11<DJNekkid>yea... :)
11:11<DJNekkid>i pretty much know how that works ... were just wondering if i could actually _use_ thoose labels, or i had to invent my own :P
11:13<@peter1138>errr
11:13<@peter1138>that's not what you asked
11:13<@peter1138>you can use any label...
11:13<DJNekkid>but not outside the table?
11:13<@peter1138>...
11:14<DJNekkid>i cant use LIME and COAL in an Action3 ?
11:14<DJNekkid>(or that var2 that does the same thing)
11:15<@peter1138>you don't use "LIME" or "COAL" directly in the action3 (or var2), you using the index of it from the translation table
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11:15<Lapsus>Hello! :3
11:16<DJNekkid>thats why i have to invent my own :P
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11:16<@peter1138>...
11:16<DJNekkid>(via preprocessor)
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11:19<sparr>when I have a temporary traffic jam on my rail network, how can I avoid backwards-facing trains being stuck for minutes?
11:21<frosch123>increase the timelimit for trainversering to infinite
11:24<sparr>no, I want them to reverse
11:24<sparr>but I don't want them to STAY reversed
11:24<sparr>usually when a train reverses it goes a tile or two (til it hits a backwards signal) then reverses again
11:24<sparr>what causes them to reverse once and stop?
11:26<frosch123>iirc that is the behaviour at path signals when no backward-path is found. i cannot remember whether that was changed in trunk
11:27<sparr>:(
11:28<sparr>good to know at least, thanks
11:28<sparr>I can afford an extra few tiles to take path signals off my split bridges
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12:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18731 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp station_gui.cpp station_gui.h): -Codechange: move the DrawStationCoverage stuff from misc_gui.cpp to station_gui.cpp
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12:09<dragonhorseboy>hey
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12:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18732 /trunk/src/ (company_cmd.cpp misc_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: move the company related commands of misc_cmd.cpp to company_cmd.cpp
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12:18<dragonhorseboy>hey fjb
12:19<fjb>Hi dragonhorseboy
12:19<dragonhorseboy>how doing?
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12:29<sparr>what is the point of path signals causing reversed trains to stop permanently?
12:29<dragonhorseboy>yeah good question
12:30<@Rubidium>failing to find a route to a safe waiting point, which makes the train marked stuck
12:32<fjb>That's why I'm disabling train reversion.
12:32<dragonhorseboy>well rubidium why should it not just simply turn around again if it can even see that the signal is backward?
12:33<@Rubidium>because then if you mess with signals at a station trains might magically turn around (and leave)
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12:35<@Rubidium>anyhow, for PBS issues talk to michi_cc, not me
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12:35<sparr>so the back of a path signal is not a safe waiting point, but the back of other signals is?
12:35<dragonhorseboy>and to think I wonder why ottd can't just simply directly use the signalling system from the patch as it always seem to just work
12:37<@peter1138>because it doesn't just work, and it's also written in x86 assembly
12:37<dragonhorseboy>peter..I've built so many different junctions in the patch and trains don't wait backward at a one-way signal EVER
12:37<dragonhorseboy>compared to ottd where trains always seem to break stuck at werid places
12:38<@peter1138>i've seen plenty of ttdp pbs bug reports over time
12:38<@peter1138>you can disable the turning around thing of course, it's just not a default
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12:39<dragonhorseboy>hmm and a large 4-way bridges-using junction with extra tracks and no signals anywhere except at the legs themself .. always fun to have multiply trains going through it at once. others looking at the screenshot seem to have no idea how to do it ^_^
12:40<dragonhorseboy>(hint for them: reserved tracks instead)
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12:40<sparr>reserved tracks have a few "bugs" too
12:40<sparr>i'm going to try to document some of them
12:40<sparr>sometimes the tile before or after the visibly reserved tiles is still "reserved"
12:41<dragonhorseboy>sparr well I've never ever gotten one .. and even that thing about "train in depot" has never ever happened once .. dunno what people do to get these
12:41<dragonhorseboy>brb
12:41<sparr>i think these bugs show up more when you are optimizing
12:42<sparr>if you have plenty of space and money and time then you can build in a lot of buffer space
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12:43<@peter1138>a lot people build path signals just like block signals
12:43<@peter1138>and then still get jams
12:44<sparr>in one game right now I am using backward path signals as pathfinding penalties
12:44<sparr>those cause a lot of jams :(
12:46<@Belugas>jams?
12:46<@Belugas>jam!
12:46<planetmaker>I just think that the default setting should be that trains don't turn in front of red path signals
12:46<planetmaker>strawberry!
12:47<frosch123>planetmaker: you can cooperate with eddi on that topic
12:48<frosch123>though maybe you want to distinguish one-way- and normal-path-signals
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12:50<planetmaker>frosch123, well, not really.
12:51<planetmaker>any train which turns within path signals is 99.95% bound to cause trouble
12:52<planetmaker>our default settings are to switch off any turning on our servers
12:52<planetmaker>important enough to make even a shortcut command to "fix" all signal settings with one command ;-)
12:53<dragonhorseboy>back
12:53<planetmaker>But I see a point in not disabling turning in normal block signals under certain circumstances
12:53<sparr>what is the purpose of the default behavior?
12:53<sparr>most trains reverse when they get stuck, why do path signals change that
12:54<Ammler>[18:53] <planetmaker> But I see a point in not disabling turning in normal block signals under certain circumstances <-- which?
12:54<planetmaker>Ammler, those noob constructions which we don't build ;-)
12:56<Ammler>well, would be nice to see such a construction, where returning helps...
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12:57<Ammler>but I agree with Eddi, it should be a GUI setting
12:58<Ammler>with a red warning, if you disable pbs, you should also disable block and opposite
12:58<@Rubidium>Eddi's thing is that the defaults are wrong, but he never has told us what he thinks are the best defaults
12:58<@Rubidium>he's kinda pulling a mb on us
12:59<Ammler>well, I guess, the defaults are TTO settings?
12:59<Ammler>isn't that the sense of the defaults?
13:00<Ammler>but they aren't very newbie friendly. (not just signals)
13:01<Ammler>but slowly, OpenTTD gets also players, which never played TTD before ;-)
13:01<@Rubidium>the defaults aren't TTO settings at all for a long time
13:02<Ammler>ok, so just randomly?
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13:03<Ammler>well, you won't find the settings which everyone likes :-P
13:03<sparr>again I ask...
13:03<planetmaker>well... I outlined why I would consider "no turning" the better alternative. Most cases it doesn't help to find a path anyway. Also with block signals when using one-way signals.
13:03<sparr>what is the purpose of the default behavior?
13:03<sparr>WHO likes trains getting permanently stuck?
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13:04<sparr>Ammler: you imply that someone likes this setting
13:04<@Rubidium>well, not quite randomly either; I've done a 'review' a year or so ago what would be a sane default of some settings; the rest what it was at the beginning
13:04<Ammler>sparr at least the quy, who coded it, yes.
13:04<Ammler>guy*
13:04<sparr>I think the guy who coded it did not test it well
13:05<dragonhorseboy>sparr I got to agree
13:05<Ammler>but as those are settings, it doesn't matter that much, bader are hardcoded things.
13:05<@Rubidium>anyhow... we're *still* waiting for someone to actually do such a proper review (preferably with diff to table/settings.h); lots of people more or less said they would do that
13:05<dragonhorseboy>seeing how the same layouts from Patch just never works out in ottd at random
13:05<@peter1138>defaults have never been TTO... TTD maybe...
13:05<dragonhorseboy>but I wouldn't comment any further
13:05<@Rubidium>yet *NOONE* ever done it
13:05<+glx>dragonhorseboy: OTTD PBS is not TTDPatch PBS
13:06<planetmaker>what would such a review comprise, Rubidium ?
13:06<sparr>Ammler: turning off reversing just to fix one bug with reversing is not a good fix
13:06<@Rubidium>sparr/dragonhorseboy: how do you expect someone to test whatever any player can throw at it?
13:06<dragonhorseboy>glx so why not? I mean whats difficult about asking for a train to be able to enter platform B while another trains leave A at same time?
13:06<Ammler>peter1138: sorry, meant TTD
13:06<@peter1138>dragonhorseboy, path signaling *does* that
13:06<sparr>Rubidium: by putting it in a nightly and asking for feedback
13:06<Ammler>sparr: he, why is that a bug?
13:07<dragonhorseboy>peter...nope..it only allows one train in the junction at once rather than two (you know..the old cheap X junction in front of station)
13:07<Ammler>that is just another behavior some like.
13:07<planetmaker>sparrL, anyone can test. No need for a change of the defaults for that purpose
13:07<sparr>Ammler: the "bug" is that a train gets permanently stuck due to a few seconds of jam
13:07<@peter1138>dragonhorseboy, then you're not USING path signals
13:07<@Rubidium>sparr: it has been a stand alone patch for ONE year, then it has been in trunk for EIGHT months, then it has been in a release for EIGHT months and only now you get really annoyed by it
13:07<@Rubidium>sparr, YOU should have reacted like... a year ago
13:07<sparr>Ammler: at the very least, even if the current behavior is desired, the status of the train should change to "Stopped" rather than "Waiting for free path"
13:07<dragonhorseboy>peter...I am..it only lets one train while the others sits waiting for it to clear the junction
13:08<Ammler>sparr, so you want openttd should warn you, if you build crap?
13:08<@Rubidium>Ammler: that can be arranged, clippy style?
13:08<sparr>Ammler: I want crap shouldn't break
13:08<dragonhorseboy>I don't know if there's any point in keep talking about this anyway
13:08<sparr>Ammler: so far no one has demonstrated any scenario in which the permanently-stuck "feature" is desirable
13:08<@Rubidium>"It's look like you're making something is broken, do you want to start again?"
13:08<@peter1138>made that up, right?
13:09<Combuster>its been reported before...
13:09<Ammler>sparr: the issue is, some don't like openttd does all the gameplay and like to do a part self.
13:10<@peter1138>dragonhorseboy, http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/mmmpbs.png
13:10<@peter1138>and you say that doesn't work
13:10<@Rubidium>Combuster: where? here on IRC. That is not a place that's meant to be used to remember such issues
13:11<Combuster>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2274
13:11<planetmaker>asked again: what should an analysis of the pros and cons of those settings look like?
13:11<Combuster>September '08
13:11<Combuster>I think at least its the same sort of problem as sparr mentioned
13:11<@peter1138>"If a train can't find a path, it will not wait indefinitely but for 'pf.wait_for_pbs_path' days.If a train can't find a path, it will not wait indefinitely but for 'pf.wait_for_pbs_path' days."
13:12<@peter1138>^ the bug is... it doesn't
13:12<sparr>Rubidium: http://sparr.homeip.net/pathing_0001.png <-- what is the right way to implement this?
13:12<@peter1138>it only seens to turn around when at a signal
13:12<Ammler>IMO, the only issue with the signal settings is the lack of missing GUI
13:13<Combuster>sparr: start with a one-way PBS signal
13:13<@Rubidium>sparr: that looks fine. If trains turn around there it means there's a massive gridlock on your network
13:13<sparr>Combuster: did, same issue
13:13<Combuster>its technically better
13:13<sparr>Rubidium: and?
13:14<planetmaker>Rubidium, but the point is: if so, turning doesn't help but makes things worse
13:14<sparr>not "massive gridlock"
13:14<Combuster>Rubidium: the problem is, if a temporary jam (or surge) occurs, it causes a permanent deadlock
13:14<sparr>although gridlock causes it too
13:14<sparr>if any train ever stops while leaving that split, there's a good chance it will get permanently stuck
13:14<sparr>which then causes gridlock and triggers every such problem farther back in the network
13:15<sparr>what Combuster said
13:15<@Rubidium>sparr: might you have reversing at PBS signals disabled?
13:15<sparr>every time my network jams, I have to manually find 20+ stuck trains and tell them to turn around
13:15<planetmaker>sparr, as said: reversing in front of any signal solves those issues
13:15<sparr>Rubidium: I think that I do not
13:15<@Rubidium>then the train turned around at the red block signal, tries to find a path and waits indefinitely because it may not turn around again
13:16<sparr>planetmaker: that might do it. what is the down side?
13:16<planetmaker>sparr, non for the networks I build
13:16<sparr>what is the down side for any network?
13:17<sparr>There are long arguments to be had over features and settings that make some networks better and some networks worse. I don't care about that. I am trying to establish that this particular behavior makes no network better, and thus is a "bug" instead of a "feature".
13:17<Combuster>imo trains should never reverse except inside stations and EOL
13:18<@Rubidium>Combuster: then change those settings
13:18<planetmaker>we do...
13:18<@Rubidium>but just browse to the saves at the bug reports and you'll find countless examples of people depending on the turning around behaviour
13:19<Ammler>sparr: I would guess, you have disabled waiting time for pbs but enabled it for block
13:19<planetmaker>uhm... depending on turning around during grid lock?
13:19<@Rubidium>planetmaker: yes
13:19<planetmaker>having it enabled (as it's default) != depending on it
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13:20<@Rubidium>imagine a map filled with 4 tracks next to eachother full of two-way signals, the occasional junctions and 90 degree turns turned on
13:20<sparr>Rubidium: at one point I thought of trying that :) cover the map in a grid, see if trains could find their way
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13:21<Combuster>Rubidium: that's not what we were saying
13:21<@Rubidium>so changing the default will cause problems for the noobiest of the noob; the one that doesn't know about one way signals
13:21<planetmaker>there are very few of the saves which use that kind of setup. And even then...
13:21<sparr>Ammler: how can I check that?
13:21<@Rubidium>I'm not saying that that setting might be better disabled by default though
13:22<Ammler>Rubidium: but it needs to be the same for both types
13:22<Combuster>what my report wanted, was to check if a signal can be reached from the proper side before reversing
13:22<@Rubidium>it's just that I'm going to wait for each and every setting you lot think needs to be changed; I want them all in one go
13:22<Combuster>i.e. to stop reversing when it makes no sense
13:22<Ammler>but that is just a issue for players not devs ;-)
13:22*sparr cries over the religious war he has started
13:23<Ammler>sparr http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Setdef
13:23<@peter1138>hmm
13:23<@peter1138>okay
13:24<@peter1138>why do trains get stuck?
13:24<planetmaker>where are they defined, Rubidium ?
13:24<@peter1138>i can't reproduce it
13:24<@Rubidium>table/settings.h
13:24<planetmaker>thx
13:24<sparr>peter1138: it could be a non-default setting on the server i am playing on. but i dont know how to check that.
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13:24<Ammler>peter1138: disable waiting time for pbs and then let a train reverse into a pbs
13:24<Ammler>where never a path will be available
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13:25<@peter1138>oh, so you've turned turning around off, and then expect it to turn around?
13:25<sparr>peter1138: it could be a non-default setting on the server i am playing on. but i dont know how to check that.
13:25<Ammler>they might turn around from block singnals into pbs
13:25<Ammler>sparr, check the link i pasted
13:26<sparr>Ammler: I did
13:26<Ammler>without the value, it will show you the server setting
13:27<sparr>"it"?
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13:27<Ammler>type setting <whatever>
13:27<Ammler>to the game console
13:27<sparr>which setting is the relevant one here?
13:27<Ammler>those from my wiki pate
13:27<Ammler>paste*
13:29<Ammler>wait_for_pbs_path,wait_twoway_signal,wait_oneway_signal
13:30<sparr>wait_for_pbs_path 255, wait_twoway_signal 15, wait_oneway_signal 15
13:30<frosch123>lol, ok, those settings are broken :p
13:30<@Rubidium>so turning around for pbs signals is turned of, turning around at the others is turned on
13:30<@peter1138>well, i'm trying this
13:30<@peter1138>and nothing locks up
13:31<@Rubidium>and based on the values at least two of the three values are non-default
13:31<frosch123>otoh, aren't those settings just those suggested half an hour ago?
13:31<sparr>255 is turned off?
13:31<@peter1138>in fact the train never turns around
13:32<Ammler>peter1138: they turn around from the block signals
13:33<@peter1138>they aren't
13:33<Ammler>they wait for 15 days then turn around, that is how that setting works...
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13:34<@peter1138>odd, it is now
13:34<Ammler>sparr: the server admin could solve it in 2 ways, either he set pbs to 15 like the other 2 or disable the other two, too..
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13:36<sparr>ok, thanks for helping me figure this out. i still think the lack of a status change is unhelpful
13:36<@peter1138>hmm, now it's not
13:36<Ammler>it doesn't need exactly to be exactly same value, but it needs to be enabled or disabled for all the same.
13:37<sparr>I guess one alternative would be to space my path signals such that a reversed train can't ever hit them
13:37<Ammler>sparr: if you can't change the values, the only solution is not using the other type.
13:37<sparr>i THINK that the network i am building isn't possible without path signals :(
13:38<Ammler>why not using those everywhere?
13:38<Ammler>it isn't possible, we have fiddled around quite much until michi_cc gave us the option to disable block signals, too.
13:39<sparr>i have been led to believe that path signals consume more cpu time
13:39<@peter1138>cool, train crash :D
13:40<sparr>http://sparr.homeip.net/pathing_0002.png
13:40<sparr>can't do that without path signals, right?
13:40<Ammler>why not?
13:40<Ammler>but I would oneway path signals
13:40<Ammler>use*
13:41<sparr>i mean the entry path signal
13:41<sparr>the one-way
13:41<sparr>the others are just pathfinding penalties, i could replace them with bridges
13:41<Ammler>they are only penalties from back
13:41<sparr>they only get passed from the back
13:41*fjb uses path signals only.
13:41<Ammler>ah, I see
13:42<Ammler>yes, use path signals only and replace the block singals with oneway path signals
13:42<sparr>have I been misled, re cpu use?
13:43<Ammler>not noticeable
13:43<sparr>at all?
13:43<sparr>even with 1500+ trains?
13:43<Ammler>maybe a bit :-)
13:43<@peter1138>right
13:43<Ammler>but you should use oneway when possible
13:43<@peter1138>for me, the train will not turn around
13:44<@peter1138>there's something wrong
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r18733 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: greek - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:49<@peter1138>right
13:50<Ammler>he, it doesn't turn around here, either
13:51<Ammler>might be fixed in the meantime?
13:51<@peter1138>has something changed?
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13:51<@Rubidium>michi did do some path signal work lately
13:52<@peter1138>unless it happens in some corner case
13:54<Ammler>also no turns in 0.7.5
13:54<Ammler>sparr, do you have savegame with the issue?
13:55<sparr>no
13:55<sparr>i'll reproduce it when i can and make one
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14:03<Sacro>Hmm, why does openttd-1.0-beta1 make pulseaudio go all fuzzly when 0.7.4 doens't
14:03<Sacro>this seems like a bug
14:05<frosch123>what, sacro is on ubuntu?
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14:05<Sacro>I'm on Arch
14:06<Sacro>hmm
14:07<Sacro>it's worse when I start it from my gnome menu
14:07<Sacro>and from the run menu
14:07<Sacro>when i launch from gnome-terminal it's fine
14:08<Sacro>ahh
14:08<Sacro>I don't think it's obeying SDL_AUDIODRIVER
14:09<Sacro>which should be esd
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14:09<Sacro>Yes, it's using 'pulse' instead of 'esd'
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14:11<sparrL>I am trying to reproduce the issue in a test case
14:11<sparrL>and my trains are sometimes not reversing at oneway and twoway signals
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14:22<sparr>http://sparr.homeip.net/Reversing_Problem_0002.sav
14:22<sparr>Ammler: ^^
14:22<sparr>peter1138: ^^
14:23<sparr>the existence of a signal in the middle of the to-be-jammed train is influencing the reversing behavior
14:24<sparr>if there is no signal there, then the train doesn't reverse back to the path signal
14:26<@peter1138>uh huh
14:27<@peter1138>so you're placing signals too closely? :P
14:27<sparr>i don't think so
14:27<sparr>train length 10+ tiles, I am not going to put my signals 10+ tiles apart, that's asking for even worse jams
14:28<@peter1138>that's not true at all
14:31<sparr>everywhere trains want to be less than 10 tiles apart it will incur a delay
14:31<sparr>those delays will propagate
14:31<sparr>Rubidium: does that test case qualify as "building crap"?
14:32<@peter1138>Sacro, samplerate was changed from 11025 to 44100. this seems to cause pulseaudio to throw a spazz
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14:33<@peter1138>Sacro, "pulse" is correct for SDL_AUDIODRIVER. "esd" is the old compatibility mode. you probably just need to install the right package.
14:42<Sacro>i'm using esdcompat
14:44<@peter1138>pfft, just remove all that gumpf and get an sb live...
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14:51<sparrL>other than the source, is there documentation on the pathfinding weights of various features?
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14:58<Zuu>sparrL probably not if it is not in the wiki or a possible docs directory in trunk.
15:00<asilv>if you mean pathfunding penalties they are in openttd.cfg
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15:01<sparrL>hmmm
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15:14<sparr>Is there a scenario available anywhere for concept testing? no spurious terrain, but usefully placed hills and mountains. one or two of every industry. a couple of towns, a couple of cities. etc
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15:41<Yexo>as far as I'm aware not, I usually just use a random map for that purpose
15:41<Yexo>or a not-so-random map depending on what I'm testing
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15:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18734 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Prepare: for 1.0.0-beta2
15:55<Noldo>already?
15:55<Chrill>oooh
15:55<Chrill>beta2
15:56<@Rubidium>yeah, got sick of people reporting the same bug over and over again
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15:57<Chrill>Eoin?
15:57<Noldo>:)
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16:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18735 /tags/1.0.0-beta2/ (6 files in 5 dirs): -Release: 1.0.0-beta2
16:01<PeterT>Sweet!
16:01<PeterT>!logs
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16:33<andythenorth>meh
16:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r18736 /trunk/src/ (house.h newgrf_house.cpp): -Feature [NewGRF]: implement varaction2houses vars 66 ad 67
16:43-!-Rubidium changed the topic of #openttd to: 0.7.5, 1.0.0-beta2 | Website: *.openttd.org (BaNaNaS: bananas, translator: translator, server list: servers, nightly-builds: nightly, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | #openttd.notice for SVN notices | UTF-8 please | No Unauthorised Bots | English only
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16:45<SpComb>what's this !logs business you speak of
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16:48<andythenorth>gosh damn those water-based-industry heliports
16:48<andythenorth>my graphical solution to landing helicopters on dredgers...is boring
16:49<andythenorth>Yexo: what would help move newgrf airports along?
16:50<Yexo>me starting to work on it again
16:50<andythenorth>:P
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16:50<Yexo>the current problem is how to implement public airports aka industries that have an airfield
16:50<Yexo>see http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Newgrf_Airports_Documentation#Public_Airports_.28counter-proposal.3B_not_implemented_either.29
16:50<Yexo>but I'm still not sure how I should implement that
16:52<andythenorth>hmm
16:52<andythenorth>industry airports seems easier
16:53<andythenorth>but it's a hack on industries, might cause problems in future
16:53<Yexo>such as?
16:53<andythenorth>some interesting industry feature that has to be legacy compatible with the public airport implementation?
16:53<PeterT>spComb: Wrong channel
16:55<andythenorth>Yexo: airports would appear in the industry menu?
16:55<Yexo>no
16:55<andythenorth>industries conceptually produce / accept cargo. airports don't?
16:55<Yexo>the normal airports stay as they are
16:55<Yexo>it's not really ment as "public airport", but can be used as such
16:55<Yexo>it's also ment for custom industries that have a heliport for example
16:56<andythenorth>personally I would prefer this implementation, for the reason you just gave
16:56<andythenorth>it seems faster and simpler
16:56<andythenorth>I just wonder about unintended consequences
16:56<Yexo>you prefer it above wath?
16:56<Yexo>the one by pikka?
16:57<andythenorth>pikka's being the 'not industry' version?
16:57<Yexo>" Public Airports (not implemented yet)"<- that one is by pikka
16:57<Yexo>" Public Airports (counter-proposal; not implemented either)" <- that one is by frosch123
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16:59<andythenorth>I prefer frosch's version
17:00<frosch123>actually it is not really a choice. imo there is no way around airports/seaports assigned to industries
17:00<frosch123>pikka's stuff is completely separate/optional though
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17:01<andythenorth>I have selfish reasons for favouring the 'airport as industry' route :o
17:02<Yexo>that reminds me, I should try and figure out a way to enable the same callbacks for other vehicles
17:02<Yexo>at least ships should be pretty easy
17:03<andythenorth>which leads one day to newgrf docks?
17:03<Yexo>yes
17:04<Yexo>and, same as with airports, industries with a custom dock
17:05<andythenorth>yay
17:05<andythenorth>well I guess I'd have to help with that somehow then
17:05<@Belugas>night all
17:05<andythenorth>night Belugas
17:05<Yexo>night Belugas
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17:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18737 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Fix (r12028): Var67 data wasn't swapped properly for orientation.
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17:32<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r18738 /trunk/src/ (clear_map.h tree_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r18719): when a tree died while there was snow the amount of snow on the tile changed
17:34<planetmaker>good night Belugas
17:34<planetmaker>he, what an odd thing. The snow mourning the tree
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17:36<Yexo>yeah, I forgot MakeSnow() reset the amount of snow to 0
17:37<planetmaker>he :-)
17:39<andythenorth>stupid dredging industry :P
17:39<andythenorth>I give up. For today, anyways
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17:40<planetmaker>oh, that was the spurious green snow tile in the thread
17:40<Yexo>oh, andythenorth: it'd be a big help if you could create a very simple newgrf with a single industry that looks like an airport
17:40<planetmaker>I just compiled to look at the savegame :-P
17:41<andythenorth>Yexo: an industry that contains an airport, or an industry that *is* an airport?
17:41<andythenorth>just before I go drawing loads of stuff...
17:41<Yexo>doesn't matter
17:41<andythenorth>okey kokey
17:41<Yexo>even very crude grahpics are ok
17:41<planetmaker>the latter exists as of now, I think ;-)
17:41<planetmaker>err... the first
17:41<andythenorth>I need to draw a survey camp that contains an airport
17:41<Zuu>Grandmas bakery with express delivery airport :-)
17:41<Yexo>it'd just save me some hours trying to correctly align sprites
17:42<Yexo>hmm, a heliport would be easy indeed :)
17:42<planetmaker>the dredgin site has one
17:42<planetmaker>*dredging
17:42<andythenorth>I've got a fricking industry heliport I'm trying to eliminate. Perhaps I could pm it to you
17:42<andythenorth>oh perhaps not
17:43<Yexo>with some nfo please, so I can add some airport code to test what I code
17:43<planetmaker>should also be feasable to cut it from the final NFO
17:43<andythenorth>ok, it won't be today, but at least it gives me something more interesting to do than draw cranes with helipads attached :)
17:43<planetmaker>go go surcey camp :-)
17:44<planetmaker>make it for cessnas a viable destination ;-)
17:44<andythenorth>does it need taxiways and that kind of crap? Pikka seems to have thought of *everything* in the spec
17:44<planetmaker>and a nightmare for boings.
17:44<andythenorth>I'm thinking just a runway
17:44<Yexo>it doesn't need anything, just some graphics
17:44<Yexo>a single runway is fine, that makes coding the statemachine easy :)
17:44<andythenorth>hmm...which road set is GPL? :)
17:44<planetmaker>OpenGFX :-)
17:46<planetmaker>TTRS... maybe usable. But it can be disputed as "use for (O)TTD(P) is not GPL-compatible
17:46<andythenorth>screw it, I'll just use ground tiles
17:46<planetmaker>OpenGFX actually even has two. Normal and toyland roads
17:46<planetmaker>toyland roads are actually not bad. Nice concrete w/o middle colouring
17:47<planetmaker>might be just what you want for a small landing site
17:47<Yexo>bah, next time I sync I should also start the game, not just see if it compiles
17:47<Yexo>something in the gui code changed apparently
17:48<Xaroth>you breaking things again, Yexo? :P
17:48<Yexo>it's just opening the build airports window that causes an assert now, nothing obvious really
17:49<planetmaker>a mistake often made. Compiles --> Done. I know that, been there, seen that :S
17:49<Xaroth>if it compiles, ship it :)
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17:55<andythenorth>no airport industry tonight :( I have to sleep
17:55<andythenorth>looks fun though
17:55<andythenorth>planetmaker: meanwhile I've 'run out' of FIRS text IDs for industry names. Probably some could be shifted around
17:55<planetmaker>:-O
17:56<andythenorth>I think it will be fine
17:56<andythenorth>anyway, good night
17:56<planetmaker>is there such small limit?
17:56<planetmaker>well, good night.
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17:56<planetmaker>Sleep is a good plan
17:56<planetmaker>so... also from here :-) Good night
17:59<@Rubidium>this *stupid* pulseaudio bug is really annoying me
18:00<Yexo>don't be so fast Rubidium :p
18:00<Yexo>you closed it before I could even add a comment about known-bugs.txt :p
18:03<@Rubidium>I'm pondering adding it as 'default' close reason
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18:11<Terkhen>good night
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18:14<Yexo>argh, that's why it didn't call UpdateWidgetSize: the signature of that function changed
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18:20<Eddi|zuHause>hm... 3D cinema hurts my eyes...
18:24*Chrill pats Eddi|zuHause's eyes
18:24<Chrill>Avatar 3D? :p
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18:29<frosch123>night
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18:32*Zuu finds two exams with different course codes that he both though was the same course... it is hard to sort all those old exams to the right binder. :-p
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20:00<@peter1138>http://paste.openttd.org/220896
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20:33<SpComb>peter1138: careful with those negative packets
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 06 00:00:34 2010