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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-01-06

---Logopened Wed Jan 06 00:00:34 2010
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00:42<Jara>Question, i have set "restart_game_date = 2052" yet it resets after one year in 1961 where 1960 was the date it started in a multiplayer game. Dit i do somting wrong or do i just dont get it >..<
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02:19<@peter1138>restart_game_date is not a recognised option
02:19<@peter1138>restart_game_year is
02:19<@peter1138>(maybe it was changed at some point)
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02:33<Terkhen>good morning
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03:17<Xaroth>I think Combuster has some connection issues
03:17<sawtooth>shame that i've got all the joins parts and quits ignored but not the nick changes
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03:18<sawtooth>at least it is a lot less spammy than it could be otherwise
03:27<sparr>shhh, you're interrupting the pattern!
03:28<sawtooth>you'll just have to ignore the non-silence
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03:28<@peter1138>why is my masquerade rule not working right?
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03:55<Zoney>hi everybody~
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03:57<Zoney>hows the transport going?
04:01<planetmaker>moin moin
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04:08<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r18739 /trunk/src/tree_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r18719): building trees on snow with rocks underneed caused an assert
04:13<planetmaker>s/ed/ath/ ?
04:13<planetmaker>hm... s/eed/ath/
04:14*andythenorth working on that industry with an airport...
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04:42<andythenorth>Yexo: I've got an industry for you
04:42<andythenorth>not pretty, but that wasn't a requirement :|
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05:39<Terkhen>this is weird... the function I need to profile is not showing up at gprof: at first I thought that it was because the function is declared at a new header file, but other functions from that header show up correctly
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05:42<@peter1138>probably optimised into something else
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05:44<Terkhen>okay... I'll try to find it
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05:45<Terkhen>I found it, thanks
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06:05<blinkiz>Hello. Am totally new to OpenTTD and have a question. How do I rotate the camera?
06:05<blinkiz>I only see the world in one direction at the moment.
06:05<Goulp>camera is not rotable
06:05<blinkiz>Does anyone understand what I mean?
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06:06<blinkiz>Goulp, alright
06:06<Goulp>this is not 3D drawing
06:06<blinkiz>Goulp, Then.. How do I zoom in even more then standard?
06:07<Goulp>by puting your eyes near your screen should be ok
06:07<@peter1138>you can't do that either
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06:09<Goulp>or use an external zoom in program
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06:51<roboboy>If I try to clone a train whose wagon is obsolete it fails to clone. Would it be possible to alow me to say clone just the loco so I clone the orders. That would be useful for cloning crashed trains that dissapear.
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06:54<@Rubidium>roboboy: just build a new train and share orders
06:57<Zuu>blinkiz: Try ctrl+x - there you can toggle what should be transparent / invisible. In case there is trees or something else hindering your view.
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy/Rubidium: my suggestion is to take autoreplace rules into account when cloning
06:58<blinkiz>Zuu, Aaa, nice :)
06:58<Zuu>If you ctrl + click on one of the buttons with an icon, you will put a lock on the state of that button (in the transparency dialog)
06:59<Zuu>Non-locked icon buttons will be toggled when you press the x-key.
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>also try the "X" key ;)
07:00<roboboy>hm that is a nice idea Eddi|zuHause
07:00<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: and that is?
07:01<@Rubidium>oh, autoreplace settings
07:01<@peter1138>bah, network-manager sucks
07:01<@peter1138>i wanted to use it to set up a vpn
07:01<@peter1138>but it needs to take over eth0 as well
07:02<@Rubidium>good old /etc/ppp to the rescue :)
07:02<@peter1138>yeah, i've got to figure out how to do it manually :s
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07:32<rane>how do you guys "post-process" giant screenshots? :P
07:33<@Rubidium>not :), just post it on my server and let people open it with their browser
07:33<rane>I'd like to show some parts of it to someone but it's too big to be cropped with an editor
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07:34<rane>at least Paint.NET couldn't handle it
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>tried gimp?
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07:35<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is, most viewers or editors just try to inflate the whole picture into ram, which can exceed the available memory quite easily
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07:35<Ammler>rane: something like that:
07:36<rane>how do you do those?
07:37<planetmaker>rotated and probably scaled giant screen shot - with a decent image processing tool ;-)
07:37<planetmaker>possibly also de-skewed
07:38<Ammler>Osai: did that, I guess with photoshop
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>that looks like the original map generator...
07:40<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it likely isn't; too many roughness in the middle of the map
07:40<@Rubidium>more likely they levelled quite a bit
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>but it clearly shows repeated patterns
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>and TGP rarely generates rectangular lines
07:41<@peter1138>looks like a fair amount of landscaping too
07:41<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: you mean the rectangle just NW of the center?
07:41<@peter1138>i'd guess TGP with lots of flattening, actually
07:42<@peter1138>or a scenario, hah
07:42<@Rubidium>just notice the industry there, looks like they were (once) preparing to build a station there
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean the amount of rectangular landscape spread over the whole map
07:43<@Rubidium>same with the flat square just SE of the SW corner of the inner rail ring
07:43<rane>hmm, is it possible to have dedicated server make yearly/monthy autosaves?
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>rane: yes, dedicated server makes autosaves the same way as a client
07:43<rane>but not by default, it seems
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that one looks very fuzzy...
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>rane: there should be a setting from the console
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07:46<Eddi|zuHause>that looks like monthly autosave
07:46<rane>yeah, autosave = monthly
07:49<rane>btw, 1.0.0-beta crashes when taking a giant screenshot on w7, known issue?
07:50<roboboy>which beta
07:52<rane>didn't notice there's a new one
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08:00<Eddi|zuHause>does it crash with an actual error?
08:00<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18740 /extra/website/general/utils/ ( [Website] -Fix: looks like Python's URL lib doesn't like redirects
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08:08<rane>Eddi|zuHause: Message: <none>
08:09<rane>in crash.log
08:09*roboboy didnt realise OpenTTD 0.1.1 was available for download from an official source
08:09<@Rubidium>rane: is the crash reproducable?
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>rane: and does windows keep logs if it kills a process for out of memory?
08:10<rane>crashes every time on my system
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>rane: on any map size?
08:10<roboboy>how do I add a train to a new group?
08:10<@Rubidium>roboboy: drag it
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: draggin
08:10<rane>Eddi|zuHause: didn't crash on smallest
08:11<@Rubidium>do you have any NewGRF? Does it happen on a freshly created map without NewGRFs?
08:11<roboboy>would it be posible to highlight the draged group or something to make it obvious that the train was succesfuly added?
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>a 2048x2048 big screenshot might exceed 4GB memory quite easily
08:12<@Rubidium>roboboy: possibly, yes... whether it's likely to happen is something totally different
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08:14<@Rubidium>hmm, making a big screenshot in a full debug build... not a good idea
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: the group name should appear above the vehicle (if it doesn't have a custom name)
08:14<@Rubidium>anyhow, no big screenshot crash for me
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>i occasionally miss selecting multiple vehicles
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>for dragging
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08:16<roboboy>OpenTTD crashes for me on Win 7 when taking a giant screenshot on a 512x1024 Multi Player map
08:16<roboboy>I get no crash window at all
08:16<rane>I do, but…
08:16<planetmaker>crash or just disconnect, roboboy ?
08:17<rane>I couldn't make it crash on single player
08:17<roboboy>hm no crash it disconnected
08:17<roboboy>as I ended up at the title screen
08:17<planetmaker>well. No wonder. That's normal.
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, i suspect out of memory
08:17<planetmaker>you get kicked as your computer is not fast enough and you lag too much
08:17<rane>I don't think it's any out of memory issue in my case
08:18<roboboy>I shall try in beta 2 on a local game
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium/frosch123: not sure if that covers all of it:
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>i'm open to discussion ;)
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08:21<rane>'NewGRF settings' button is buggy in multiplayer window
08:21<Ammler>rane: because you can't use it there
08:21<rane>I don't know about that, but it's still buggy
08:21<planetmaker>define 'buggy'
08:22<rane>visibility toggles on and off as I click refresh button
08:22<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, extra_dynamite shouldn't be on by default
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>why not?
08:23<planetmaker>it destroys industries and so on, if towns grow. Quite unwanted
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's not the magic bulldozer cheat
08:23<@Rubidium>planetmaker: uhm.. no, it doesn't
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's the setting that allows town roads
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>ones that go in circles
08:24<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: enable the gui for signal waiting?
08:24<@peter1138>i prefer to leave that one on
08:24<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, which roads? Sorry, I don't know what it does then. What does it?
08:24<@peter1138>stops idiots completely removing towns in MP
08:25<@peter1138>and the signal gui is just annoying
08:25<@peter1138>make path signals default, and don't cycle non-path signals
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>it cycles all signals, i didn't change that
08:25<andythenorth>something made one way path signals default. that was annoying
08:25<Ammler>hmm, I meant the signal waiting times in the advanced setting gui
08:26<andythenorth>grr photoshop quit
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i understand, but that's kinda out of scope here
08:26<andythenorth>I want to put Zephyris' wind turbine into firs
08:26<andythenorth>seeing as it's snowing
08:26<roboboy>where are the waiting time settings under advanced settings?
08:26<andythenorth>I should be coding a 4 week moving sales average chart, but hey
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: they aren't there, that's part of the problem ;)
08:26<rane>Rubidium, giant screenshot on LAN game beta1: crash, beta2: disconnection
08:27<planetmaker>rane: disconnect != crash
08:27<@Rubidium>rane: so it's already fixed
08:27<roboboy>I went looking for the earlier
08:27<rane>however, the beta2 game is fresh
08:27<rane>Rubidium: seems so
08:27<planetmaker>nvm me
08:27<Ammler>oh, sparr posted a savegame yesterday missed that
08:27<Ammler>peter1138: did you find the "issue" about returning on signals?
08:28<rane>do you want me to create a ticket about the buggy newgrf settings button on multiplayer window?
08:28<planetmaker>what does gui.station_dragdrop change?
08:29<@peter1138>planetmaker, dragdrop mode...
08:29<@peter1138>whatever you pick in the station builder gui is remembered and saved
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>i wish it remembered the newgrf station category as well
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>whenever i load a game, it's back to the default station
08:31<planetmaker>well... I see no point why to disable the drag mode or its remembering
08:31<planetmaker>besides I miss all settings related to turning on signals.
08:32<frosch123>pause_on_newgame :/ who uses that?
08:32<planetmaker>it should be disabled always, e.g. wait infinitely.
08:32<planetmaker>frosch123, that's useful
08:32<frosch123>pf.yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol <- i have no idea about the bigger picture of that :p
08:32<SmatZ>you can save the game just after world generation
08:33<planetmaker>it will break much of our buildings, if that's set to false
08:33<SmatZ>frosch123: very useful setting for openttdcoop games ;)
08:33<Ammler>not only for coop games ;-)
08:34<planetmaker>:-) Indeed. It allows to influence the choice of tracks by choosing one-way and two-way signals in a well-defined manner
08:34<planetmaker>But then... having it to true might confuse newbies.
08:34<andythenorth>frosch123: I always use pause on newgame
08:35<Ammler>andythenorth: annoying feature, if you like to quickly test something...
08:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18741 /trunk/src/lang/afrikaans.txt: -Fix (r14597, r16460): the 'ownname' of a language isn't the name of the translator, but the name of the language in said language.
08:35*andythenorth TTDPatch wiki
08:35<andythenorth>how does tile animation work anyway
08:36<frosch123>r18741 ... :o
08:36<Ammler>since there is the tree view gui for the settings, couldn't be EVERY setting in the gui?
08:37<andythenorth>meh, Chrome is junk
08:38<frosch123>Ammler: esp. the game options do not fit into the tree
08:38<frosch123>where should the descriptions of the game settings go?
08:38<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> it will break much of our buildings, if that's set to false <-- well. but the coop people know how to change the setting ;)
08:38<frosch123>and changing the resolution everytime you press "<" or ">" will cause lots of problems, when the resolution is not available
08:38<Ammler>frosch123: I meant specially settings like penalties and such
08:39<frosch123>euh.. i really prefer to hide those details
08:39<Ammler>and a indicator which shows, if the value differs from default would be nice, too.
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08:40<@Rubidium>Ammler: can be done, is it better for the normal user? Most likely not
08:40<Ammler>frosch123: if you don't open that branch, it _is_ hidden.
08:41<Ammler>or a checkbox (advance view)
08:41<@Rubidium>but what is advanced and what isn't?
08:41<@Rubidium>I reckon you'd end up with multiple levels
08:41<Ammler>those, which you hide now
08:42<frosch123>pathfinder penalties are at the very end of the advancedness-scale
08:42<@Rubidium>cause some of the settings now shown should probably also be not shown for the noobiest of the noobs
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08:42<KenjiE20>could do what 'xine' does, and have a dropdown with 'user level'; beginner -> master of the known universe
08:42<frosch123>he, and some settings should also not be shown just beause changing them is pointless (like full date in status bar) :p
08:43*andythenorth baffled by tile animation, even though it must be very simple....more wiki time
08:43<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> pf.yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol <- i have no idea about the bigger picture of that :p <-- the problem is, someone who naively places twoway block signals can easily run into a situation where trains run down a totally senseless route instead of waiting for the signal to turn green, if it's the only path to the destination
08:43<Ammler>frosch123: sometimes just seeing those is nice
08:43<Ammler>most values aren't changeable anyway in mp mode.
08:44<frosch123>Ammler: yup, the full-date-in-statusbar-issue is mostly solved by the treeview :)
08:45<frosch123>however, looking at other software, usually the settings are not directly in the tree, but a tree is used to select a settings-page which could also contain more complex settings like those from the game options
08:46<frosch123>i.e. imo some of the gameoptions would fit nicely in the interface section
08:46<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> it should be disabled always, e.g. wait infinitely. <-- no, i don't think that should be the case. the PBS-reversing needs to be fixed to be less stuck-prone
08:46<Ammler>some adv. setting would fit to difficult settings, some to cheat etc...
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you try this cheat discussion this time :p
08:47<Ammler>setting templates would be nice ;-)
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>last time the devs gave up and made the no-elrail-cheat into an advanced setting ;)
08:48<frosch123>well, if you trash the easy-/medium-/hard- profiles you can also integrate them all into the tree
08:48<frosch123>(i never liked them)
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>each setting should have a "difficulty" setting attached to it (like 0%, 30%, 70%, 100%), and the geometric mean of all difficulties taken
08:49<Ammler>frosch123: yes, could be done with templates
08:49<frosch123>[14:48] <Ammler> setting templates would be nice ;-) <- but they are not very useful if you store all settings
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>then not every change would end up being "custom"
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>but that's a rather huge task
08:49<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: what is the difficulty of "allow multiple newgrf-engines sets" or "no service if no breakdowns" ?
08:50<Ammler>those aren't in that "set"
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: "invalid" ;)
08:50<andythenorth>incidentally 'allow multiple newgrf-engine sets' must really baffle players when it is constantly referred to as 'the engine pool'
08:51<frosch123>andythenorth: actually the reference as "engine pool" is wrong :p
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's not even an appropriate name, as the engine pool is enabled anyway ;)
08:51<+glx>like other pools ;)
08:52<frosch123>maybe we should add some "if you don't know what this is, leave it to <bla>" to the tooltips
08:53<frosch123>hmm, though now i wonder whether there are actually tooltips
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>it might be generally useful to have a "set to default" button
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>between the <> buttons, possibly
08:54<Ammler>yes, and only active, if the value does differ, so you have the indicator with it.
08:55<frosch123>doesn't sounds that bad, that might also allow stuff like pathfinder penalties
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08:56<Ammler>changing penalty defaults is a very dangerous thing for regular players, btw.
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08:57<@peter1138>add a button for all options; default
08:57<andythenorth>ok I give up on the wiki for an explanation of tile animation. what do need to do?
08:58<andythenorth>(newgrf, in case that can't be assumed by now)
08:58<frosch123>what do you want to do? :p
08:58<@peter1138>animated tiles? callback magic
08:58<andythenorth>just cycle through sprites
08:59<andythenorth>I assume that somewhere I provide an ordered list of action 2 IDs
08:59<frosch123>lineary with constant frame length?
08:59<andythenorth>frosch123: yes
09:00<frosch123>so tile property 0f and 10
09:00<andythenorth>yep, got those
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>i thought animation was a callback that returns the new frame number
09:00<frosch123>and tile variable 44
09:00<frosch123>i guess no callbacks needed
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>like if current frame is "k", and you have "n" frames you do "if (k==n) return 0 else return k+1"
09:01<andythenorth>makes complete sense
09:02<andythenorth>somehow I missed the variable 44
09:02<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you can do that, but if it is only lineary you do not have to (iirc)
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but this way you can extend to more complex animations
09:03<andythenorth>that can happen later :)
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>it might be even easier with "return (k+1) mod n"
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>that might be a single varaction 2
09:04<frosch123>but that is what happens if you do not need any callback (iirc)
09:06<frosch123>s/ (iirc)//
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>fine ;)
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>man i have a headache today...
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09:06<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't know why
09:06<andythenorth>let's see if I can make a wind turbine then
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>let them do a "*fwump*" noise every n frames ;)
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09:10<andythenorth>hi Belugas
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09:25<@peter1138>whatever happened to drivethrough depots?
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09:37<Yexo><andythenorth> Yexo: I've got an industry for you <- nice :)
09:37<andythenorth>Yexo: what do you need from me?
09:37<andythenorth>It's compiled into FIRS at the moment
09:37<andythenorth>I can separate it
09:38<Yexo>seperate would be easier for me
09:38<Yexo>less nfo to figure out
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09:42<rane>damn, still can't make anything useful out of a giant screenshot because it's just too damn big for any editor I've tried
09:43<Madis>you aren't trying 2048^2? are you?
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09:44<andythenorth>oh poop, I've forgotten how to use grfcodec (embarassed). I'm too used to make files
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09:45<Madis>grfcodec -d blah.grf?
09:45<Madis>-p 2
09:45<planetmaker><Eddi|zuHause> man i have a headache today... <-- don't drink and derive ;-)
09:45<Madis>haven't used it in.. 7-8 months
09:45<Madis>yeh, deriving is awful, think for your self :P
09:46<Madis>yourself maybe even
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09:51<andythenorth>Yexo: hmm...I'm stuck on grfcodec....wanted to check this nfo builds before I send it to you :(
09:52<Yexo>I can check that
09:53<Yexo>to be honest I use the openttdcopo makefiles too :p
09:53<andythenorth>sorry, some kind of stupid path issues here
09:53<andythenorth>how do you want the files?
09:59<Yexo>a zip of all needed nfo (non-prepprocessed if possible) and pcx files?
09:59<andythenorth>pm or forum upload?
10:00<Yexo>both is fine with me, whatever you want
10:00<Yexo>if forum upload just make it clear that it doesn't work yet, that safes some bug reports
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10:03<andythenorth>Yexo: pm sent
10:05<Yexo>on tt-forums? didn't get it yet
10:09<andythenorth>Yexo: try now :)
10:09<andythenorth>FIRS Wind turbine - animation works :)
10:11<Yexo>oh, animation
10:11<Yexo>another thing I should work on for airports
10:11<Yexo>spec is done, implementation not
10:12<andythenorth>who needs animated radomes anyway?
10:12<edeca>"ice on the conductor rail" means that trains cannot stop at one station on my route home. Why don't they just send someone to polish it! :)
10:16<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r18742 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [NewGRF]: house prop 1D was thrashed when a newgrf contains prop 14 after prop 1D
10:18<+glx>it cannot stop but can pass through ?
10:18*Rubidium slaps orudge... adding snow I don't have it and removing it when I have it :(
10:20<edeca>glx: Heh yes, I don't understand that. Perhaps they rely on momentum
10:24<Yexo>andythenorth: it's missing action0 for tile E1
10:24<Yexo>and it misses the text IDs DC90 and DCE9
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10:28<wysiwtf>hi there
10:29<wysiwtf>first congratz for hitting the 1.0
10:29<wysiwtf>i lamost forgot about this great game
10:30<wysiwtf>but where does the windows version store its downloaded content?
10:30<wysiwtf>i was trying to copy the openttd folder to my workstation @ work but it didnt copy the ai/grf/etc stuff i downloaded
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10:31<wysiwtf>and downloading it again wont work since the downloader seems to use some odd port our firewall doesnt like
10:31<Yexo>My Documents/OpenTTD/online_content/
10:31<wysiwtf>ah thx
10:31<wysiwtf>can i copy that directly into the game directory?
10:31<wysiwtf>or wont it be found there?
10:31<Yexo>that's possible too
10:32<Yexo>just put all files from online_content/data/ in the data/ directory, etc.
10:32<Yexo>create any directories that don't exist yet
10:32<frosch123>or just ~/.openttd/content_download
10:33<Yexo>but where does the windows version store its downloaded content? <- that's doesn't work too well on windows
10:33<frosch123>hmm, ok "workstation" implies some unix-like for me :p
10:34<Yexo>well yes, but in that case I suppose he wouldn't be trying to copy his windows executable
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10:36<wysiwtf>were on windows here
10:36<wysiwtf>but openttd is the perfect game for in-between :)
10:37<wysiwtf>its not too fancy ont he hardware and yet more interesting than all the flash stuff
10:37<wysiwtf>which reminds me
10:37<wysiwtf>is there a possibility to configure the listenport on the multiplayer part?
10:37<wysiwtf>probably not since i havent seen a port option upon connect
10:38<Yexo>have you lookedin openttd.cfg?
10:38<roboboy>I think there is hidden away in OpenTTD.cfg
10:38<Yexo>should be there somewhere
10:38<Yexo>it's "server_port"
10:38<roboboy>we could perhaps do with a config search command in the console
10:39<Yexo>like "list_vars"?
10:40<roboboy>ive always misunderstood the use of the term variable in OpenTTD's console it seems then
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10:41<andythenorth>Yexo: sent you another pm with files...
10:42<wysiwtf>it works
10:42<wysiwtf>and i found the server port var
10:43<wysiwtf>i take it the client also uses that variable to connect to other servers not just for incoming connections?
10:43<Yexo>it's only used for incoming connections
10:44<Yexo>if you connect to other clients via the multiplayer window it'll get the port to connect to from the masterserver
10:44<Yexo>not sure if local lan discovery will work if you use a different port though
10:46<Yexo>/!!Warning (97): Set 03 defined by the previous Action 1 (sprite 5) has not been used.
10:46<Yexo>is that expected?
10:48<Yexo>and //!!For feature 9 the following cargoIDs have not been used since their most recent definition: 02
10:49<wysiwtf>usually i just specify the lan-ip i want to connect to
10:49<wysiwtf>of course i can specify it like <ip>:<port>
10:49<Yexo>I was about to say that :p
10:49<wysiwtf>i just hope openttd understands =)
10:51<wysiwtf>so if i understand correctly the new stuff like trams and magnetic rails are only supported through GRF files
10:52<planetmaker>only trams are not available as default vehicles
10:52<Yexo>magnetic rails? if you mean maglev just play in 2020 or so
10:53<wysiwtf>ah i havent advanced that far in my testgame yet
10:53<wysiwtf>im like 2010 and monorailing all and everyhting :p
10:55<wysiwtf>and building planes of course
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10:58<wysiwtf>which brings me to the next question: is the boeing 747 really the best plane in the game? somehow i found the later ones without benefit..
10:58<wysiwtf>or do they improve in reliability/cost effectiveness?
10:58<wysiwtf>apart from the concorde (of course) they all seem to fly at 950something km/h anyway
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11:00<luk3Z>hello, it is possible in ottd build signals on the track automatically? I saw advanced option "place signal every x tiles" ?
11:01<luk3Z>ctrl key + placing signal don;t help :/
11:01<Yexo>that advanced option is for the distance between signals when you drag them
11:01<luk3Z>how it working ?
11:01<Yexo>try ctrl key + clicking signal, hold the mouse and drag it a bit in one direction
11:02<luk3Z>I today spoted new option in ottd - refit wagons :)
11:02<luk3Z>ok I try
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11:04<wysiwtf>i found a way to spend lotsa money instantly: just go to a place where its all water, select the raise landscape thingie and draw a big square :p
11:10<wysiwtf>and wtf is bananas?
11:11<luk3Z>Yexo: thanks ! it's working
11:11<Yexo>it's the online content service
11:11<wysiwtf>ah the openttd package manager :p
11:12<wysiwtf>yeah well i guess the client-integration is only 10% of it, the rest lies server-side
11:12<luk3Z>Yexo: maybe do you know whether autohor of Choochoo AI is active ?
11:13<wysiwtf>in my testgame i played against the admiral AI
11:13<Yexo>I don't even know who the author is
11:13<wysiwtf>while it is making a happy profit with planes
11:13<wysiwtf>it somehow fails to build cost effective train lines
11:13<Yexo>just find out who the author is and look at when he was last online
11:13<wysiwtf>in fact it build lotsa depots and station and tracks without putting trains on it
11:13<Yexo>wysiwtf: that really depends on which newgrfs you've loaded
11:14<Yexo>in that case: were you using beta1?
11:14<Yexo>if so, update to beta2 and try again
11:14<Yexo>if it happens in beta2 make a report in the topic at the forums
11:14<luk3Z>Yexo: ok Michiel is author he is online I see on the forum, so nevermind
11:14<wysiwtf>ye, beta1
11:15<wysiwtf>is there a bundle of GRFs that can be seen as a "default-package" because its largely used by other stuff? i tried enabling all GRFs i could find at once and it was pure chaos ^^
11:16<luk3Z>btw Modified Building Costs + hard difficulty = AI bankrupt ;)
11:17<wysiwtf>^mmh just looking at the AI files
11:17<wysiwtf>its all plaintext!
11:17<Yexo>wysiwtf: there is no default package
11:17<Yexo>yes, the AIs are scripted
11:18<wysiwtf>makes me wanna fiddle with it ^^
11:18<Yexo>nearly all (with one exception) of the Ais on bananas are GPL
11:18<Yexo>so feel free to combine, modify, etc.
11:18<Yexo>and if you make something nice, please share it again
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11:18<wysiwtf>yeah but i wont start with the admiral Ai but with a simpler one :p
11:19<Yexo>try wrightai
11:19<Yexo>it's written as an example for ai developers
11:20<wysiwtf>i love openttd, ist like a giant playground with ingame mechanics yet simple enought to not frag my brain (like those 3d-game-APIS)
11:21<luk3Z>AI on the hard lvl + Modified Building Costs grf should start building trains with coal in the first stage but in my game AI build 1 train with cial and bankrupt soon (max loan is 1 000 000)maybe AI don't use more loan :/
11:21<Yexo>yes, it's doable to make it work, but it's still very hard to make it work under all circumstances
11:22<luk3Z>I Mean AdminalAI build train but soon it lack of monay I think so AI need a little cheat ;)
11:23<luk3Z>what do you thjink about idea (e.g. in options) to enable AI cheat ?
11:24<luk3Z>scripts are ok but in some circumstances AI going to bankrupt , so this option can be helpfull
11:24<Yexo>bad idea
11:24<Yexo>if the Ais are going bankrupt but a human player can survive then the AIs should be improved
11:24<sawtooth>nobody likes a cheating ai :)
11:24<luk3Z>player can cheat if he want, so why player can't decide about cheat of AI ?
11:25<Yexo>if you want that, just cheat to the AI company and then cheat money
11:25<Yexo>and in multiplayer a player can't cheat
11:26<luk3Z>I only want to help AI survive a little longer time ;)
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11:38<andythenorth>"Would you like a RRT industry set"
11:39<@peter1138>what he means: "I would like an RRT industry set"
11:39<Eddi|zuHause><glx> it cannot stop but can pass through ? <-- power consumption is the highest when starting up
11:39<andythenorth>(Don't ask me to do it, I'm busy enough and have not coded any industries yet.)
11:40<andythenorth>oops. forgot the quotes around that
11:40*andythenorth stops moaning
11:41<andythenorth>FIRS pretty much is a fricking RT3 industry set
11:41<andythenorth>I have the industry chart here, and it's not a straight copy, but is close
11:42*andythenorth back to the 4 week average sales chart I'm coding
11:43<SpComb>makes giant screenshots a little more linkable
11:43*andythenorth decides to choose words carefully on the internets
11:46*andythenorth feels good about not being mean
11:50*peter1138 grumbles
11:50<fonsinchen>SpComb: That's nice. How did you do that?
11:50<@peter1138>SpComb, send plz
11:50<SpComb>fonsinchen: by writing a bunch of code
11:50<fonsinchen>Duh ...
11:51*andythenorth I too busy writing code to write any code
11:51<andythenorth>also too busy to use correct words
11:51<fonsinchen>How did you parse the the giant screenshot?
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11:51<SpComb>peter1138: it's not really ready...
11:51<SpComb>fonsinchen: I decode it onto disk, and then mmap it
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>am i supposed to get an empty page with two buttons "zoom in" and "zoom out"?
11:52<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: depends on your browser
11:52<fonsinchen>That probably takes A LOT of RAM ...
11:52-!-luk3Z_ [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:52<SpComb>fonsinchen: well, it's all shared across the processes, and the OS pages it in/out as needed
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: konqueror 4
11:53<SpComb>I've tested with firefox and opera so far, dunno about IE or webkit
11:53<fonsinchen>And what did you use to decode it?
11:53<SpComb>fonsinchen: libpng
11:53<andythenorth>SpComb: seems to do something useful on Safari
11:54<fonsinchen>and on firefox
11:54<SpComb>the actual decoding/encoding only takes as much ram as used by libpng for the compression stuff, so probably on the order of one row
11:55<wysiwtf>SpComb: is the zoom w/ mousewheel a page-feature or does my browser resize the picture?
11:56<wysiwtf>nevertheless it works quite well for me
11:56<SpComb>wysiwtf: the zoomed tiles are rendered on the server as well
11:56<SpComb>it's a pretty trivial algorithm because it only has to handle square images that are powers of two in size
11:56-!-luk3Z [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:57<SpComb>so it just averages groups of 2/4/8/16 etc. pixels together
11:57<@peter1138>make it faster, with updates
11:57<SpComb>uh, well, whatever
11:57<@peter1138>and you've got web ottd ;)
11:57<SpComb>peter1138: meh
11:57<wysiwtf>SpComb: now just add some UI elements and a gameloop and you will put the client-versions out of business ;)
11:58<andythenorth>OpenTTD screensaver?
11:58<SpComb>heh, not going to happen really, waaay too slow, and no possibility for caching :)
11:58<wysiwtf>an openTTD screensaver which just plays random savegames would be awesome
11:58<SpComb>there was an OpenTTD screensaver mode on the forums
11:59<wysiwtf>SpComb: i managed to get a python error
11:59<andythenorth>What the game really lacks is Twitter integration....
11:59<SpComb>wysiwtf: it's pretty demo-quality yet...
11:59<wysiwtf>SpComb: with clicking on the resolution-link while the page was still loading
11:59<wysiwtf>cant repro it now, tho
11:59<SpComb>wysiwtf: well, don't do that then :P
11:59<wysiwtf>oh i can live with it :p
11:59<wysiwtf>i thought u like the feedback ^^
12:00<SpComb>as I said, demo-quality
12:00<wysiwtf>now what is THIS supposed to be? :p
12:02<SpComb>interesting features
12:02<sawtooth>it's MW it would seem
12:03<wysiwtf>this station also looks wired :p
12:04<@peter1138>just grain silos
12:05<SpComb>don't blame me, I didn't build it :(
12:06<SpComb> <-- but look at the layout of this
12:06<SpComb>5-track terminus that can handle a pretty large number of trains in a very compact space
12:06<@peter1138>bah, x doesn't work ;(
12:06<SpComb>although now with electric rolling stock, the trains accelerate fast enough that it's already almost overkill
12:07<SpComb>but it could handle dozens of slower steam/diesel engines 10 years back
12:08<SpComb>the secret is specifically having alternating in/out tracks with a one-tile switchover in front of the station
12:08<SpComb>you get about four simultaneous trains
12:12<sawtooth>looks like most of those are seperate lines then
12:12<SpComb>in this case yes, there's some segregation between lines
12:12<SpComb>but that's just a further optimization
12:12<@peter1138>meh, i wanna play with cargodest
12:13<@peter1138>it makes sidelines much more interesting
12:13<sawtooth>i started a game recently to try it out. makes things interesting.
12:13<SpComb>sidelines are a bit difficult when playing with Low towns - the towns are so far apart that you're scared to use local coaches for anything :)
12:13<sawtooth>had a small city between two large ones that had issues becase trains were full when they got there :)
12:14<SpComb>so you end up running short legs with mainline coaches to 90% of towns
12:14<SpComb>I play with 1/4th pax to make it more manageable
12:14<sawtooth>yeah, i need to add a passenger reduction patch too
12:14<wysiwtf>i never managed to make a real profit with vehicles
12:15<wysiwtf>the margin always was so small compared to the work i had with all those trucks
12:16<sawtooth>i can do pretty well when building the small initial network but then i tend to get overwhelmed when needing to upgrade it all
12:17<sawtooth>trying to figure out how to build the crazy stations
12:18<oskari89>Well, i had town with about 23000 population...
12:18<oskari89>Started my network..
12:19<oskari89>Had an 5-track station, and next to that, second town with some 10000 population, and same-like station....
12:19<sawtooth>i might need a bit of reduced payment for passengers too. i was making a killing in the game i started
12:20<sawtooth>part of the reason was i set my initial loan too high. makes be build too quickly.
12:20<oskari89>And after 100 years in game, town was expanded to 130000 population, and station had 24 tracks :)
12:20<oskari89>And by-passing for freight..
12:20<oskari89>Under the station.
12:21<oskari89>Oh, there were 32 tracks, not 24 :)
12:21*peter1138 grumbles at landscapers again
12:21<SpComb>I have 2b€ cash already :(
12:21<sawtooth>well, i had started a nars2 game in 1890 and was swimming in cash before 1900 rolled around
12:22<SpComb>been playing for 60 years at 4x daylength (240 "normal" years, about 54h of gameplay)
12:22<oskari89>Well, i had 4,5b euros and some 100 years..
12:22<SpComb>but making cash isn't really the objective
12:22<oskari89>No, building is.
12:23<SpComb>but it's annoying having to play the artificial "oh, I can't electify that track yet, I couldn't afford it!" game :)
12:23<sawtooth>at least if i start with a really small loan i don't build too much right away before I can plan
12:23<SpComb>whereas you could cover the map in maglev if you wanted to...
12:24<Ammler>SpComb, using 2cc with parameter 9 might help
12:25<SpComb>well, I noticed a little too late that I'm playing with Low building costs
12:25<SpComb>I imagine the dbset's also a little more expensive if you up that to High
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12:27<@peter1138>is there a newgrf which just makes landscape hugely expensive?
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12:28<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
12:30<planetmaker>peter1138, there is afaik a newgrf which is capable of modding all base prices via parameters?
12:31<Terkhen>peter1138: I can adapt this if you need it, it wouldn't take much time to make it greater than 4x:
12:33<@peter1138>clearing stuff is okay
12:33<@peter1138>just raising/lowering landscape which is annoying me
12:33*Terkhen should edit it to allow parameters
12:34<frosch123>one action0, just increase it by factor 65536 or so
12:34<@peter1138>what does basecosts.grf allow?
12:35<Ammler>peter1138: that is a bit outdated...,
12:35<@peter1138>not on bananas?
12:35<Ammler>it is
12:36<Ammler>it is mainly pikkas grf with parameters
12:36<Ammler>(first "it is" is for the question to bananas) :-)
12:37<Terkhen>my problem was that it alters the cost of building foundations
12:37<Ammler>but your grf is way too easy right now.
12:37<@peter1138>that's no good then
12:38<Terkhen>yes, I want to edit it, 4x is almost nothing... but I never get the time :P
12:38<Ammler>with Action6 the whole thing would be easy to code.
12:38<Terkhen>peter1138 you just need really high raise/lower land?
12:39<Ammler>peter1138: I meant that with "outdated"
12:40<SpComb> <-- oh, and the code for the image-viewer isn't secret, it just isn't really ready :P
12:42<Terkhen>I just recoded it so that raising a single tile costs 24M €
12:43*Terkhen reads about Action 6
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12:44<Ammler>Terkhen: simple example for parameter and Action6:
12:45<Terkhen>thanks :)
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12:55<Luukland>Apache Problems again Rubidium?
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12:59*sawtooth attempts a linux build with the patches SpComb put together
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13:02<andythenorth>stupid users
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13:03<Terkhen>I'm currently changing the costs for raise / lower land, plant trees, remove trees, clear grass, clear rough land, clear rocks, clear fields and clear water... I'm thinking about using three parameters: a parameter for raise / lower land, another for plant /remove trees and a third one for all clearing costs
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13:05<Terkhen>oh, and a fourth one for foundations
13:06<andythenorth>I feel a Belugas style rant coming on :x
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13:24<frosch123> <- lol (wouldn't have noticed if he hadn't such a noticeable nickname)
13:32<SpComb>but polite
13:42<@Rubidium>ooh... the return of the SmatZ :)
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13:42<SmatZ>hello Rubidium :-)
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r18743 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 47 changes by burgerd
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: malay - 537 changes by Syed, toadhall
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14:05<Bluelight_>Ok, I have this problem that when I connect/play to/on a internet game, I get disconnected all the time..
14:05<Bluelight_>I play with a friend of mine, and he has the same problem too..
14:06<@Rubidium>what version are you using?
14:07-!-Bluelight [] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
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14:08<Bluelight>I tested 1.0.0-beta2 at first, but got disconnected, so I downloaded stable 0.7.5 instead, but I'm still getting disconnected..
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14:10<@Rubidium>OpenTTD seems to be sensitive to unstable connections, be it wireless or bad cable/DSL. The major problem is that none of the developers have any clue what causes it, or a network connection that triggers this behaviour in OpenTTD. As such we can't fix it
14:11<Bluelight>Thats weird, cuz all other internet games work just fine..
14:11-!-Madis [] has joined #openttd
14:11<Bluelight>And my friend got a totally different DSL system then me, and he got the same problem too..
14:12<@Rubidium>but is the network design the same as OpenTTD?
14:12<@Rubidium>there are many ways it can be designed; OpenTTD's way depends on getting all information, other games might work 'fine' if you're missing out some information
14:12<Bluelight>Network design?
14:13<Bluelight>Yeah and you get packet loss with TCP/IP
14:13<@Rubidium>how the network code is designed
14:15<Bluelight>You always get loss in the weird turns of connectivity on the net.. So the game have to resend, maybe it doesnt..
14:15<@Rubidium>no, with TCP/IP the protocol handles resends
14:15<Bluelight>But it hangs for a really long time, then disconnects..
14:16<Bluelight>Then why do other TCP/IP games work like a charm? Doesnt make sense..
14:17<@Rubidium>so the server says (to the operating system): send XY to the client, then the server and clients' operating system have to make sure that the data is received in the right order without anything missing and only then it's passed to the client binary.
14:17<Bluelight>Also I find out that OpenTTD is cross platform? Is there any other cool games that is cross platform too?
14:18<Bluelight>Maybe my computer is too fast, lol
14:18<@Rubidium>Bluelight: as I said, design. OpenTTD sends stuff to the client, then the client has to calculate stuff and draw it on the screen. Most games can receive the data 'too late' and then recover from getting it too late. OpenTTD's game state is simply too complex to get that done
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14:19<Bluelight>Ok.. Really sad.. I wanna play..
14:19<@Rubidium>as such the server sends a message how far the clients may progress before they have to wait for the server again
14:20<Bluelight>I'm trying to learn C++, maybe one day I can figure this out? Doh..
14:20<@Rubidium>if the client doesn't get the message from the server, because of a temporary network hiccup, the OSes start the resend stuff and after a while you'll receive the go ahead (and probably a lot more go aheads), so it can speed ahead
14:21<@Rubidium>but if the resend stuff takes too long the client starts to think that the network connection is lost (because the server doesn't send anything or replies on questions) and then it's done
14:22<Bluelight>But why is it working fine for a moment and then breaks after a wile..?
14:22<Bluelight>I can play for some hours on a server and then suddently I get disconnected all the time.. Weird..
14:22<@Rubidium>because of the temporary hiccups
14:22<Luukland>"losing packets" is probably the main reason
14:22<@Rubidium>maybe someone is downloading torrents or so
14:23<Luukland>do you use WLAN?
14:23<@Rubidium>something that saturates your incoming connection
14:23-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Quit: Restarts!]
14:23<@Rubidium>then packages get dropped, resends are needed, resends are possibly dropped again and...
14:24<@Rubidium>anyhow, time to make some dinner
14:24<Bluelight>My incoming connection is 1Mb/s outgoing is 3Mb/s (had 20 before, lol), I use a firewall but I have tested without it, still get connection trouble.. Use a short patch cable directly from DSL modem to computer.. Only one computer can be connected to it and I
14:25<Bluelight>'m not using torrents or anything..
14:25<Luukland>OpenTTD doesn't like you using youtube (or any other streaming site), utorrent (or any download app.), and especially WLAN
14:25<Bluelight>I just start up my XP.. Turn off the firewall and plays the game with little luck..
14:26<Luukland>You could join me server, I can then look at the amount of frames lag you have
14:26<Luukland>it should be around 1-6 to be "very good"
14:26<Bluelight>I was playing for a while on your sever.. But I broke the rules remember? He he..
14:27<Luukland>ah, dunno, long banlist >_<
14:27<Bluelight>Ok, I can try..
14:27<Bluelight>I'm not banned I think..
14:27<Bluelight>But I have to run my firewall while in IRC.. Getting a lot of attacks then for some reason..
14:29-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has joined #openttd
14:30<Bluelight>Downloading beta now..
14:30-!-fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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14:33<Bluelight>Hmm.. All Luukland servers are red, can't join them..
14:33<Bluelight>I played on them yesterday though.. weird..
14:33<Luukland>we use 075
14:33<Luukland>not beta
14:34<Bluelight>Ohh... Darn.. But I used Beta yesterday..? Hmm..
14:34-!-Terkhen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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14:37<Bluelight>Now I'm in Luukland server 2 as Bluelight..
14:38-!-Wizzleby [] has quit []
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14:39<Luukland>No lag whatso-ever
14:39-!-Terkhen [] has joined #openttd
14:39<Luukland>now start an application (e.g. firefox)
14:39<Luukland>and go do what you always do
14:40<Luukland>well here you go :)
14:40<Luukland>It is your internet browser :)
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14:41<Bluelight>No I didn't start Firefox..
14:41<Bluelight>I was only in the game.. Got disconnected 4 times now..
14:42<Luukland>Hmmmm, strange
14:42<Luukland>it is not the LAG, must be some other error then... Run out of ideas, sorry mate
14:53<Bluelight>It works now.. But after a while I might get a period where I disconnect all the time..
14:54<Bluelight>And the it's completely hopeless to play..
14:56<Muxy>may be you have a malware who is using your internet...
14:59<@Belugas>Bluelight, check with your task manager to see the internet activity
15:02<Bluelight>Network utilisation 0%
15:02<Bluelight>I will try to reboot with all apps clossed..
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15:13<sawtooth>cities on the sides of hills are fun yet usually quite annoying :)
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15:18<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r18744 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#3487-ish]: Do not toggle the sticky- and shading-button twice per mouseclick when clicking fast.
15:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r18745 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Assemble custom station foundations into a single bounding box.
15:24-!-Bluelight [] has joined #openttd
15:25<Bluelight>Ok! I'm back..
15:26-!-Zuu [] has joined #openttd
15:26<frosch123>17 minutes to reboot :)
15:26<Bluelight>Tested the game without anti-virus and firewall, no software was accessing the internet except for OpenTTD
15:27<Bluelight>Still not working.. and sometimes it works for long periods..
15:27<Bluelight>With everything on..
15:28<Bluelight>Maybe it's something wrong with the nternet connected from Norway to other contries.. But the ping is low..
15:29<Bluelight>Maybe I should run my own server? :p
15:29-!-jpx_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:29<Bluelight>How do I run my own OpenTTD server? Dedicated!
15:31<Muxy>BlueLight: what kind of CPU/RAM/OS ?
15:32<Bluelight>Well I can use my FreeBSD server wich is a dual Xeon with 6 drives..
15:33<Bluelight>But I was thinking more like running a server in WinXP on a Athlon 64..
15:33<Muxy>OS/CPU/RAM ?
15:34<Bluelight>XP/Athlon 64/4GB DDR
15:34<Muxy>in task manager : memory used/physical memory ?
15:35<Bluelight>Where is memory used?
15:35<Muxy>in the 2nd tab
15:36<Bluelight>Physical available 2.763.922
15:36-!-jpx_ [] has joined #openttd
15:36<Muxy>and used is the number in green on the left
15:36<Bluelight>Well there are all sort of programs using everything from 10MB to 20
15:37<Muxy>if you have 2.763.922 aviable, you lost 2GB...
15:37<andythenorth>Does anyone think there would be copyright issues with using railroad tycoon graphics in OpenTTD?
15:37<Muxy>sory, total should beGB
15:37<Muxy>*4 GB
15:38<Bluelight>Yeah but this is almost a new computer and on new computers the motherboard takes some RAM for cards usage..
15:38<Muxy>how much is total ?
15:39<Muxy>and avaible is 2GB
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15:40<fjb>andythenorth: Depends on who is holding the rights.
15:40<andythenorth>I would say some larg multi-national software company
15:40<andythenorth>large /s
15:42<Bluelight>Also, when I try to host a game in-game, noone finds the server..
15:44<Alberth>such topics pop up at the forums regularly, perhaps you can find the answer there
15:47<Bluelight>Can't you tell me? :p
15:48<Alberth>not really, the usual stuff with firewalls and routers, but I don't know the details
15:49<Bluelight>And are there other free cross platform games?
15:49<Bluelight>Good ones?
15:49<Alberth>and you need those to get anywhere :p
15:49*Alberth wishes to find those too
15:49<Bluelight>Well I have tried with my firewall off and opened all ports..
15:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18746 /trunk/src/network/ (network_gamelist.cpp network_udp.cpp):
15:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#3489]: clear the cached NewGRFs of a server when receiving a reply
15:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: instead of when requesting the information. With slow/unstable network
15:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: connections it would look like the NewGRF settings button went randomly missing.
15:50<Alberth>I never tried getting a server published
15:51<Muxy>bluelight: to publish a server you need your firewall opened on tcp/udp 3979
15:51<Terkhen>Bluelight: try Freeciv
15:52<andythenorth>it gets worse
15:52<fjb>andythenorth: Don't mess with a company which can pay the better lawyers.
15:52<andythenorth>fjb: oh I have no intention to
15:52<andythenorth>I am just watching a forum cluster ...oops.../me deletes the swearing
15:54<andythenorth>I'm not usually annoyed by forum users. Even the clueless ones are kind of fun.
15:54*fjb wants to have some fun, too.
15:54<Bluelight>What is wrong when I have all ports open?
15:54<Bluelight>And no firewall?
15:55<Bluelight>Yeah. It's NAT
15:55<frosch123>to start with the simple questions, did you select "internet (advertise)" when creating the server?
15:55-!-oskari89 [] has quit [Quit: Utm A½ - Aja 35]
15:55<Bluelight>Yeah I did..
15:55<fjb>andythenorth: Nobody is useless, he can always serve as a bad example.
15:55<frosch123>is it listed on
15:56<andythenorth>fjb: perhaps you would like to set some examples here then:
15:56<andythenorth>I don't like being mean to dumb people :o
15:56<Bluelight>I didn't knew there was an option to change list server
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15:57<fjb>andythenorth: Thanks for sharing the fun.
15:57*fjb goes reading the forum.
15:58*asilv just realized that some forum members are younger than ttd :o
15:58<frosch123>asilv: the problem is there are people younger than ttd in this channel
15:59<andythenorth>I am about twice as old as TTD
15:59<asilv>well yes they are same people mostly
16:00<Zuu>a-q for quitting is addicting too bad, that doesn't work in OpenTTD :-(
16:01<sawtooth>my first exposure to ttd was back in the days of pcgamer 3.5" demo floppies
16:01<Zuu>I didn't start with it until year 2000-ish.
16:01<sawtooth>pretty sure it was before cd based demo disks anyways
16:02<frosch123>hmm, should ottd exit on "ESC :q!" ?
16:02<asilv>I have ttd dos version diskettes somewhere, but they don't work anymore
16:02<Alberth>frosch123: ZZ
16:02<frosch123>what is ZZ ?
16:03<Zuu>ZZ was nice in qwerty, but since changing to dvorak I never use it anymore.
16:03<Alberth>:wq (write, quit)
16:03<Zuu>~ + quit + enter works at least.
16:04<fjb>frosch123: Yes! Yes! Yes!
16:04<frosch123>Alberth: but i only need q! to exit the crap as fast as possible without chaning anything
16:04<sawtooth>anyone make the mistake of typing exit in the openttd command console thinking it will just close the console? :)
16:05<@Rubidium>frosch123: that's called the reset button
16:05<Alberth>^Z then enter 'kill -9 %1'
16:05<frosch123>hmm, good point, i could run a cronjob which tries to kill -9 them every few seconds
16:06<frosch123>how do i run cronjobs on remote machines?
16:06<Alberth>crontab -e for editing
16:07<Alberth>Zuu: see cron(8)
16:07<Bluelight>Is Railroad Tycoon 3 any good?
16:07<Zuu>Define good :-)
16:07<Alberth>Zuu: (a daemon to run commands at certain times)
16:08<frosch123>Bluelight: commerical stuff is never "good" :p
16:08<Zuu>Yea, I know what crontab is, I was suggesting to frosch123 to use the crontab command hehe.
16:08<Alberth>Bluelight: why do you assume we know about any other game? there is only one True Game :p
16:08-!-Luukland [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:08<Bluelight>He he..
16:08<@Rubidium>imagine there is no game :)
16:08<frosch123>(well, except it feeds me)
16:09<Bluelight>Ahh.. Ha ha.. Luukland is struggling to stay in IRC
16:09<Alberth>frosch123: for that it only have to sell
16:09<Bluelight>He runs servers, but can't run a IRC client.. :p
16:10<Bluelight>At least I don't get ping timeout.. here.. But in-game i floods..
16:10<Alberth>nah, his servers eat all bandwitdh :)
16:10<frosch123>you should team up with him
16:10<Bluelight>Yeah, I guess..
16:10<sawtooth>time to take a break from openttd and enjoy another hobby...piano!
16:10<Bluelight>What platform is he using to host?
16:11<Zuu>His IRC client does not need to be running at the same location as his OpenTTD servers.
16:11-!-Luukland [] has joined #openttd
16:11<Bluelight>I know.. Just thought it was funny, but I guess not.. :p
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16:12<Bluelight>Luukland, can you help me setup a server?
16:12<frosch123>he must have smelled it :p
16:12<Bluelight>He he.
16:21<Bluelight>Hmm.. Luukland is busy doing some quiz in-game, lol
16:21<Bluelight>Whos is Ex?
16:21<Muxy>Bluelight: you can have some help in #goulp
16:22<frosch123>Bluelight: luukland's archenemy
16:23<Bluelight>He he..
16:23<Bluelight>He told me to ask Ex's..
16:23<Muxy>what is archenemy ?
16:24<Bluelight>Erke fiende..
16:24<Bluelight>But that is Norwegian.. :)
16:25*Muxy still doesnt understand
16:25<Terkhen>a nemesis
16:25<Bluelight>Sooooo! How is Goulp going to help me set up a dedicated WinXP OpenTTD server?
16:26<frosch123> <- hmm, i still do not know what goulp means, but maybe that is due to the article being nonsense in first place
16:27<Muxy>Goulp is not translatable
16:27<Muxy>check here
16:27<Bluelight>What does the red dot after servername mean in the server list? Is it wrong version only or ping?
16:28<@Rubidium>click on the name and check what the 'description' part says
16:28<Xaroth>wrong version
16:28<Xaroth>or some other reason you can't play on it
16:29<sparr>Turning off reversing at one type of signal but not another can cause jams. I understand that part of this problem that I recently encountered. Can anyone clarify why the marked signal influences the decision of the to-be-jammed train to turn around?
16:29<Xaroth>you're missing some signals?
16:30<Xaroth>unless the signal where it will jam is a path signal :o
16:30<Xaroth>can't really see that properly
16:30<sparr>yes, it's a path signal
16:30<sparr>the original problem was that when i turned off reversing at path signals but not at normal signals then trains would reverse and stop permanently
16:31<sparr>that was fixed by turning reversing on or off for all types of signals consistently
16:31<sparr>now I am just investigating a more specific part of the problem
16:33<sparr>if you stop a train on the left bridge then the next train crosses the right bridge and stops at the signal past the bridge
16:34<sparr>if the <-- marked signal is missing, the right train will never reverse
16:34<sparr>if it is there, the right train will reverse
16:36<sawtooth>what about path signals before the rejoin where trains could wait?
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16:42<sparr>what about them?
16:42-!-Grelouk_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:45<gathers>could someone please take a peek at my separation patch and tell me if my current approach to things is worth more work or if I'd better begin again around something like the headway part of ITiM?
16:47<gathers>I know it doesn't always follow the coding style, but there's no point to me fixing that if the whole approach is bad
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16:52<Yexo>browsing through your code it looks nicely commented, there are a few places where it doesn't follow the coding style, but nothing major
16:52<Yexo>I have never worked with the current timetable code, so I'd have to read that first to judge how your patch works
16:53<sparr>sawtooth: I am not sure what your question has to do with mine
16:54<gathers>Yexo, thanks. It could use even more comments still I think (and I sloppily call something variance that isn't real variance at all)
16:57<gathers>oh, where did the snow in the forums go? is winter officially over already? :P
16:59-!-Hyppy [ocpa@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:59<Yexo>snow on the forums is every year a few weeks around newyear
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17:08<Xaroth>nn Belugas :o
17:08*Xaroth late
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17:19<Yexo>Zuu: just reading your latest filter signlist patch now
17:19<Yexo>a few small comments:
17:19<Zuu>Yexo: Okay, thanks.
17:20<Yexo>in SignNameFilter you could use MAX_LENGTH_SIGN_NAME_BYTES instead of 64
17:21<Zuu>And I guess also in SignNameSorter, but I need to check if that one is added by my patch.
17:21<Yexo>can't find itin your patch
17:22<Yexo>and I'm still trying to find out if the memset in the SignList() constructor is needed,isn't this->filter_string[0] = '\0'; enough?
17:22<Zuu>Nope, so there is a suggestion for trunk then ;-)
17:23<Zuu>this->filter_string[0] = '\0' is probably enough.
17:24<Yexo>SignListWindow could use MAX_LENGTH_SIGN_NAME_PIXELS for maxwidth (as argument to InitializeTextBuffer) instead of hardcoded 255
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17:25<Yexo>that memset thing is also valid in SetFilterString
17:27<Yexo>also in SetFilterString: strecpy always adds \0 to the end of dst, so the next line is notneeded
17:28<Yexo>this->SetWidgetDirty(SLW_FILTER_CLEAR_BTN); <- that should be moved out the else block as it's also needed for the first case
17:29<Yexo>+ DrawString(r.left + WD_FRAMERECT_TOP, r.right, y, STR_STATION_LIST_NONE); <- why that change? the trunk code looks correct
17:29<Yexo>left+ TOP is strange
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17:33<Zuu>Regarding TOP/LEFT, that is probably from that the patch used magic constants since trunk used that. Then trunk changed and some time later I fixed the patch to use constants but got the wrong constant there.
17:34<Yexo>in onclick, case SLW_FILTER_MATCH_CASE_BTN you need to mark the widget dirty
17:34<Yexo>at least I can't find any place that does this
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17:40<Zuu>Regarding SLW_FILTER_MATCH_CASE_BTN that widget is marked dirty by Window::HandleButtonClick which is called by DispatchLeftClickEvent in window.cpp.
17:40<Zuu>All buttons (and quite a few other widgets) gets marked dirty when you click on them.
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17:44<Zuu>Thanks Yexo, I'll upload new patches in a minute or two.
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17:50<sparr>what causes production to increase at a farm?
17:50<Yexo>the same as with other primary industriesd, transporting mostof the cargo
17:50<Yexo>but it's always random, you can just increase your chances
17:51<sparr>ACTUALLY transporting most of the cargo, or having a high "% transported"?
17:52<gathers>is testing with a single player on a dedicated server (compiled with ./configure --enable-desync-debug=1) enough to find most desyncs?
17:52<Yexo>having a high % transported
17:53<Yexo>gathers: you don't need to use --enable-desync-debug=1 to find desyncs
17:53<Yexo>it's only useful to find out where it desyncs, if it does
17:53<gathers>ah, thanks :)
17:53<Yexo>if you reconnect a few times during your testing you could probably find most desyncs
17:53<Yexo>but carefully proofreading the patch helps too
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17:54<gathers>not if you have no idea what to look for that might cause desyncs in the first place :P
17:55<Yexo>if you have no idea what to look for you wouldn't be able to fix them either
17:55<Yexo>most important is to not change any of the gamestate in the gui code
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17:55<Yexo>ifanything needs to be changed, call DoCommand and change it that way
17:56<Yexo>every DoCommand is executed by all clients and the server at the same time
17:56<gathers>I though I'd learn how do fix it if I found out where it happened ;) but I haven't seen any so far.
17:57<Yexo>well for desyncs it's a lot easier to spend to time learning how to make sure you don't get them
17:57<Yexo>as finding where the problem is can be very time consuming
17:57<Zuu>Yexo: Shall I add our conversation regarding the sign list patch as reference to the bug task?
17:57<gathers>ok, but commands are only needed when called by non-deterministic things, like gui buttons?
17:57<Yexo>Zuu: if you uploaded a new diff, no need
17:58<Yexo>unless you disagree with some things and want to discuss those more
17:58<Zuu>No, I agree with you regarding your comments.
17:59<Zuu>Ok, I've just uploaded the diffs then.
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18:00<Yexo>InitializeTextBuffer still used 255 hardcoded instead of some constant
18:01<Zuu>Thanks for checking, and indeed I forgot about that one.
18:01<Yexo>If a button is made disabled when it is lowered <- should "If a button is disabled when ..." be enough? ie without "made"?
18:02<Yexo>no more comments from me
18:03<Zuu>English-wise probably. Though I think I wanted to distuingish between the state 'disabled' and the action of disabling something.
18:04<Yexo>ah, ok
18:04<Yexo>fine by me
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18:05<Yexo>that's all I'm going to do with it tonight, before applying I want to test it first, but now I want to work on newgrf airports :p
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18:11<Zuu>Yexo: Happy airporting :-)
18:11<Yexo>hmm, noise for industry airports, how to handle that
18:12<Zuu>Generate noise, but don't check for it when the industry is built? Or maybe check for it when players build the industry but not the game?
18:13<Zuu>Though, that could be evil if a industry pops up that pollutes a town with noise so that you no longer can build an airport there.
18:13<Yexo>I think I'm just going to ignore it for now
18:14<Yexo>just because that takes less coding
18:14<+glx>how is it handled for oilrigs?
18:14<Zuu>Yea, easiest. Industries are really so expansive to build so it is quite an expansive way around the noise restriction of a town.
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18:15<Yexo>a heliport has noise 1
18:16<Yexo>but I'm not sure it's actually used anywehre
18:16<Yexo>wait, heliport, what am I talking about?
18:17<Yexo>oilrigs don't even have an AirportSpec (in my branch), so no noise either
18:19<Zuu>Does the oilrig heliport has any coverage?
18:19<Yexo>the oilrig is still a unique case inthe code
18:21<Zuu>If industry airports would have coverage zero (just that industry), then they would not be possible to use to come around the noise restriction of regular airports.
18:21<Yexo>coverage area is another thing I'm not sure how to handle
18:22<Yexo>I think for now 0 will do indeed
18:22<Yexo>maybe later it can be defined by the newgrf author, but only if the noise can be defined too
18:22<Zuu>Sounds like a good deal.
18:34<Zuu>For your information, I started a bit on adding a text box to the AI Debug window for entering a break string that will pause the game when a log message that matches the string is printed. It sits on my laptop for the moment, so I'll see when I'm next time on a train or I get around to move it to my desktop.
18:35<Zuu>Though, if you code that togeather yourself in 2 hours you're free to commit it. :-D
18:36<Yexo>oh yes, I remember I saw something on the bug tracker abuot that
18:36<Yexo>although it wasn't finished at the time I think
18:36<Yexo>looks interesting
18:39<Zuu>If you've seen it on the bug tracker then someone else has also attempted on it because I haven't submitted anything there what I can remember. :-)
18:41<Yexo>oh,somewhere else then?
18:41<Yexo>I do recall having heard the idea before
18:42<Zuu>I've posted about it in your thread about NoAI additions as a suggestion of something that would be nice to have, but doesn't neccessary need to go into 1.0.
18:42<Yexo>aha :)
18:42<Zuu>Since mostly only AI devs will use it, it doesn't really matter if it gets commited before or after 1.0 gets branched off.
18:43<Zuu>Assuming AI devs mostly use nightlies.
18:43<Yexo>I have no idea if they do
18:44<Zuu>I've seen some that use stables, so there might actually be quite some that stick to stables for AI development.
18:45<Yexo>that's also easier, because there is not always compatibility between nighties
18:45<Yexo>nearly every function in the 0.7 api still works as expected, but a few functions introduced after 0.7 have been removed again
18:45<Yexo>only 1 or 2
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18:57<Tennel>Hi, i'm trying to download OpenSFX via the ingame-dowloader, but it doesn't work. I had tryed a few times but everytime the download stops at 6,29mb.
18:58<Zuu>You can download it manually from
18:58<Zuu>Is it just OpenSFX that you get this problem with or do you get it with other things?
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19:00<Tennel>only OpenSFX, and your right, i can download it manualy, but i want to use the ingame.downloader :)
19:01<Zuu>I can't help you regarding what could be wrong. I've seen others having similar problems but I can't remember any case where it was resolved.
19:01<Zuu>Oh, one though, do you use wifi?
19:01<Tennel>nope never :)
19:02<Zuu>There is one wifi chipset that usually gets problem with OpenTTD.
19:02<sawtooth>pretty sure i downloaded it manually after one failed attempt ingame
19:02<sawtooth>not using wifi either
19:02<sawtooth>didn't think much about the issue at the time though
19:03<Ammler>opensfx might be the biggest package
19:03<Ammler>so this could be the issue
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19:03<Tennel>then i think its a bug
19:04<sawtooth>i tend to download around 80-90kbps or so incase it is a timeout issue of sorts
19:04<Ammler>yes, but it would be nice to know how to cause it
19:04<Tennel>yes thats true
19:04<@Rubidium>Tennel: what's your (external) IP?
19:07<@Rubidium>Tennel: it reliably fails?
19:08<Tennel>Rubidium: reproducible
19:08<Ammler>(i.e. after a certain amount of progress
19:09<@Rubidium>Tennel: what kind of download speeds do you get?
19:09<Tennel>Rubidium: 45K
19:09<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18747 /trunk/src/ai/ (6 files): -Codechange: add some constness to the AI code
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19:09<sawtooth>someone is worse off than me. woo!
19:10<@Rubidium>@calc 6.29*1024/45
19:10<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 143.132444444
19:11<Ammler>something like a timeout after 100?
19:11<@Rubidium>Ammler: idle timeout is 60 seconds
19:12<Ammler>Tennel: how much does it download until it breaks?
19:13<Tennel>Ammler: 6,29mb
19:13<sawtooth>i'm not sure i kept my original sound set around so I can't start it up and try another download :)
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19:14<Ammler>oh, you said that already?
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19:16<Ammler>is the speed 45 KByte or Bit?
19:16<Tennel>KByte, did you think i'm to slow with my moldy woodmodem? :)
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19:17<Ammler>no, because usually you mesure speed with bits
19:18<Ammler>45 Kbit might be the fastest dialin speed :-)
19:18<Jara>worked for me ingame
19:19<Tennel>ok, my bandwith is 400KBit
19:19<Zuu>And if you want to be really pedantic, it should be a lowercase k.
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19:19<sawtooth>actually, for me it was hanging up right towards the end now that I think about it
19:20<sawtooth>just downloading from came in right at the 2 minute mark for me at 93.2K/s
19:21<Ammler>Tennel: what if you download a lot newgrfs at once (>6.3MB)
19:21<@Rubidium>Tennel: could you try to download again?
19:21<Tennel>Ammler: i'll try now
19:21<Tennel>Rubidium: ok
19:21<@Rubidium>first only the big one please :)
19:21<@Rubidium>I've made some modifications to the downloader to log more
19:22<Tennel>now it's loading
19:22<Ammler>hehe, the debug misterious
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19:23<Jara>Might also be, if you have a 'firewall or linux machine as router' where it has a 100M/b card on one side and a 1000 on the otherto cause isues, somhow the tunnel sees it then as attack and wel :P dishes the info fromt he 1000 line. Just a thing yah might one check as well.
19:23<Jara>if that makes sence >..>
19:24<Tennel>Jara: no, just a small router-box
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>not very ;)
19:24<@Rubidium>Tennel: is it already dead?
19:25<Tennel>Rubidium: yes
19:26<@Rubidium>hmm, timeout is 2 minutes, not one
19:26<sawtooth>if the timeout is two minutes that likely explains my few 98-99% download attempts of opensfx :)
19:26<Ammler>but idle
19:27<sawtooth>hmm...then who knows
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19:28<Tennel>Rubidium: for downloading 6mb i need 133.33 sec
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19:29*Jara best not says how fast she gets it in >.>
19:30<Tennel>I'm not able to download 10mb within 2 minutes
19:31<@Rubidium>Tennel: would you please retry again?
19:31<Tennel>Rubidium: yes
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19:32*Jara downloaded the 3mb one for the joke; and erm,. half a second >..<
19:33<sawtooth>slow internet is a price you pay for living among farms. i'm at least thankful for the DSL I do have even though it isn't as fast as I would like.
19:34<Tennel>Rubidium: it seems to be working
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>sawtooth: i know that feeling ;)
19:37<Tennel>Rubidium: done, the download, but another error, he can not unpack
19:39<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18748 /extra/masterserver_updater/src/contentserver/ (handler.cpp tcp.cpp): [MSU] -Fix: the last activity wasn't updated properly and thus one could get his/her connection killed while downloading
19:41<@Rubidium>Tennel: can you take a look in the content_download/data directory?
19:41<@Rubidium>any file ending with .gz?
19:41<Tennel>Rubidium: ok, one moment, i'm downloading again
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19:44<Eddi|zuHause>"do you think it's time for plan C?" - "don't you mean plan B?" - "no... plan B never works..."
19:44<Tennel>Rubidium: could it be that the downloader is adding the actuel download to the gz file?
19:45<@Rubidium>Tennel: might be, don't know though
19:45<Tennel>Rubidium: yes he does :(
19:46<@Rubidium>Tennel: what OS?
19:46<Tennel>Rubidium: debian
19:47<@Rubidium>bad Debian in that case
19:47<@Rubidium>OpenTTD does (network_content.cpp:396) fopen(..., "wb")
19:47<@Rubidium>which according to the man does "w Truncate file to zero length or create text file for writing."
19:48<Tennel>yes, i now
19:48<+glx>+k ;)
19:48<Tennel>right :)
19:49<Tennel>now, my openttd, doesn't start anymore, i'll be back in a few minutes
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19:51<sparr>sawtooth: In my example the scenario is pf.wait_for_pbs_path=255 and pf.wait_oneway_signal=(some low number)
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19:52<sparr>sawtooth: I am aware that that is a Bad Idea(TM), and won't do it again. But I still want to know why that one extra signal changes the behavior of reversing.
19:52<sparr>and, since it's been a few hours...
19:52<sparr>Turning off reversing at one type of signal but not another can cause jams. I understand that part of this problem that I recently encountered. Can anyone clarify why the marked signal influences the decision of the to-be-jammed train to turn around?
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19:57<sparr>so many things about openttd are documented poorly or not at all :(
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19:57<Tennel>Rubidium: everthink works fine now, thank you
19:58<@Rubidium>yay... another bug bites the dust
19:58<Yexo>sparr: you can help writing the documentation
19:59<sparr>Rubidium: does that construct look like "building crap"?
19:59<sparr>Yexo: not until I understand a lot more
19:59<Yexo>everything you learn and is not documented you acn document
20:00<sparr>only if I am sure it's right
20:00<sparr>which it rarely is
20:01<@Rubidium>document this: at 2010-01-07 02:01 CET Rubidium went to bed
20:01<sparr>I'm clueless. Then someone says "foo", when really they mean "90% of the time, foo". Then I find a counterexample and someone says "90% foo, 10% bar", when they really mean "90% foo, 9% bar, 1% baz"...
20:01-!-Tennel [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
20:01<sawtooth>Rubidium: noted
20:02<sawtooth>or should i say [citation needed]
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20:04<sparr>sawtooth: thanks for at least letting me know that I explained the problem somewhat sufficiently :)
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20:40<Terkhen>good night
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21:13<gathers>I just (after some time) relearned that statements like a = (b * 4 + a) / 5 can cause overflows when a is int32 and b is uint32.. wish there was a compiler warning for that
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21:39<sparr>sawtooth: problem explained by someone in #openttdcoop
21:39<sparr>the reversing seems to be controlled by the type of block the train is in in some cases
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21:41<sawtooth>i would suspect quite a few folks in #ottdcoop know about signals and related issues :)
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22:20<sparr>I learned more about the mechanics of [Open]TTD from a week playing in #openttdcoop's games than in five years of playing the game alone
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