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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-01-09

---Logopened Sat Jan 09 00:00:30 2010
---Daychanged Sat Jan 09 2010
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00:10<Pikka>out damn cow!
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00:11-!-mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ
00:12<Pikka>sup Singaporekid
00:12<Singaporekid>oh you pikka
00:12<Singaporekid>bc2 pc beta :D
00:12<Pikka>wuts
00:13<Pikka>wuts a bc2
00:13<Singaporekid>It's the new prattlefield, clearly
00:13<Pikka>o
00:13<Pikka>badcompanies
00:13<Pikka>peter1138's server(s) are back D:
00:14<Pikka>with pj1k D:
00:14<Singaporekid>I crashed two of my trains on it yesterday
00:14<Pikka>o
00:14<Pikka>gj
00:14<Singaporekid>uh oh 1931
00:14<Pikka>I couldn't play yesterday on my eee
00:15<Pikka>for some reason peter and penguin are using the ukrs trains D:
00:15<Singaporekid>It could run a tf2 dedicated server for a lan party though
00:16<Singaporekid>it was slightly cheaper and fasttrains
00:16<Pikka>mebe.. *sniff*... mebe...
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00:57<Hyppy>what causes production in a primary industry to go up or down?
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01:17<Kovensky>it's random
01:17<Kovensky>but it's affected by ratings in smooth economy IIRC
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01:23<Pikka>Hyppy: http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Production_change
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03:24<roboboy>Pikka: thanx for the lnk to http://ttte.wikia.com . I was reading your wiki about Project 1000 (UKRS)
03:24<roboboy>Itll be of use when I get to restarting the TTE Set
03:27<andythenorth>Pikka: hai hai
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03:29<Pikka>that's okay robo
03:29<Pikka>hello andy
03:30<andythenorth>are you somewhere exotic?
03:31<Pikka>is kochi exotic?
03:32<@Rubidium>na, only naha
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03:34<@Rubidium>it's even going to freeze there pretty soon
03:35<Pikka>it's a little cool
03:35<Pikka>but north america and europe seem to be having a worse time of it
03:44<sawtooth>just saw someone else post this elsewhere: http://andialbrecht.wordpress.com/2009/05/09/when-merging-fails/
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04:20<SpComb>sawtooth: pfft, from May
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04:43<Terkhen>good morning
04:45<Alberth>morning Terkhen
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04:58<andythenorth>hi terkhen
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05:03<Luukland> Message: Assertion failed at line 1113 of ..\src\economy.cpp: v->time_counter != 0
05:03<Luukland>Ouch
05:03<SpComb>seen that one before
05:04<Luukland>OpenTTD beta 2
05:04<SpComb>oh, curious
05:04<Luukland>Uploading the crashlog to flyspray
05:07-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
05:07<Luukland>Beh, my whole game killed :(
05:08<Luukland>Emergency savegame crashes also :(
05:08<Luukland>Bad bug!
05:09<@peter1138>it's logic. the crash.sav happens *after* the crash has occured.
05:10<Luukland>I had my hopes that I could continue to build :)
05:10<Luukland>ah well that is why it is called beta ^^
05:11<Luukland>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3505
05:13<Luukland>Meaning the beta is unplayable :(
05:14<@peter1138>what's a BPS signal?
05:15<Luukland>Its a PBS signal with upside-down signal
05:15<Luukland>Bad Path Signal
05:16<@peter1138>uh huh
05:16<@peter1138>well you got your answer
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05:16<@peter1138>beta2 is, of course, perfectly playable.
05:17<Luukland>by your defenition of playable yeah
05:17*Forked gets the popcorn
05:17<Luukland>Anyhow, time to do some other stuff, good luck fixing!
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05:18<@peter1138>idiot
05:19<SpComb>tsk
05:29<roboboy>hehe
05:29<roboboy>whats the difference between CargoDest and CargoDist
05:30<@Rubidium>boost vs threading
05:46-!-fjb [~frank@p5485CCAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
05:47<Forked>(and only one of them is still being worked on?)
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: difference in design, implementation or features?
05:48-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
05:48<roboboy>features
05:49<roboboy>Forked: True in terms of OpenTTD
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05:49<roboboy>TTDPatch has CargoDest
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>cargodest forces cargo down one single route, while cargodist can balance over multiple parallel routes
05:49*roboboy goes to report a bug in TTDPatch
05:49<roboboy>so they do the same thing differently?
05:50<Forked>It's been several years since I paid any attention to the patch :)
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: that's the "design": cargodest does point-to-point connection while cargodist solves a network flow problem
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05:58<roboboy>TT-F seems be realy slow
05:59<andythenorth>fine for me
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>don't care for me
05:59<roboboy>hm must be my connection
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06:00<roboboy>my attatchment failed because it was slow
06:02<roboboy>grr
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07:03<Roelmb>guys is their a way to run your solution in Visual c++ 2008 express edition because it asks for the TT files (that aren't in the project)
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't have the TT files, google for opengfx and opensfx
07:06<Roelmb>i have them but they are not in my project so I can't debug it inside Visual c++
07:06<asilv>put ttd files to "my documents/openttd/data"
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>they need to be in "my documents\openttd\data"
07:06<asilv>:p
07:07<asilv>hmm \ not / of course
07:08<Roelmb>thats not what i mean I mean that i didn't build it yet and i want to debug it without building it first. I don't made the exe yet because I want to debug it first
07:08<@peter1138>...
07:10<Roelmb>When i build it with my compiler it starts runing it so you can debug it and look for errors without compiling it so it can give you warnings when needed. I don't have an exe in a folder i just have a project. With only the main code.
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>you're talking nonsense
07:11<Roelmb>no i'm not you guys just don't get it XD
07:12<Xaroth>I think yer being outnumbered here, Roelmb
07:12<Xaroth>You make absolutely no sense to me :P
07:12<Roelmb>I see that nobody uses Visual c++ 2008 express edition over here
07:12<Xaroth>yes I do
07:13<Roelmb>so why don't you understand it then or am i explaining it wrong
07:13<Xaroth>you are understanding it wrong
07:13<Roelmb>euhm why should i
07:13<Xaroth>you can't debug anything without building it first (with debug flags on, obviously)
07:13<Xaroth>unless you want to look through the code line by line
07:13<Xaroth>which I really doubt is what you want, seeing you want to run it (else it wouldn't ask for the TT files)
07:14<Roelmb>i am going to describe what i am doing ok
07:15<Terkhen>I use it too, to debug you need opengfx and opensfx (or the TT files) at the folders already mentioned
07:16<Roelmb>I load in my project then I press ctrl F5 and then i get that langs and version is outdated. I press yes. And then it starts running the game.
07:16<Xaroth>doesn't ctrl+F5 actually 'compile' the game?
07:16<Roelmb>yes it does
07:16<Xaroth>[Roelmb]: thats not what i mean I mean that i didn't build it yet and i want to debug it without building it first.
07:17<Xaroth>so that last bit of that sentence, fails
07:17<Xaroth>you -do- build it, else you -cannot- debug it that way.
07:17<Roelmb>but it doesn't save it somewhere
07:17<asilv>it saves exe to objs directory
07:18<Xaroth>if it doesn't save it somewhere how the hell is it supposed to run?
07:18<Xaroth>you can't run something that's not there
07:18<Terkhen>it is probably at objs\Win32\Release\
07:18<Roelmb>ok i'll look in the objs directory
07:18<Xaroth>or objs\Win32\Debug\
07:18<roboboy>its in the second one most likely
07:18<Roelmb>I only have objs\win32\debug
07:19<roboboy>then its there
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07:19<Roelmb>alright then I need to put the TT files intheir then
07:19<Xaroth>no, you don't
07:19<Xaroth>[Eddi|zuHause]: they need to be in "my documents\openttd\data"
07:20<Terkhen>Roelmb: If you put them at the already mentioned folder, all versions of openttd will find them there
07:20<roboboy>you on xp or vistaor 7?
07:20<Roelmb>their is no map like that inside debug there is only an exe and object files
07:20<Roelmb>I use 7
07:21<Roelmb>so just in documents
07:21<@peter1138>directory/path/folder. not map.
07:21<Roelmb>I allways putted them inside the game directory
07:21<roboboy>then put it in C:\Users\Roelmb\Documents\Openttd\Data
07:22<Roelmb>and does that work for the gm-files too
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes
07:22<roboboy>except they dont go in data
07:23<Roelmb>oh now i get it so thats how you need to do it without copying them like for every version
07:23<@peter1138>it's been that way for quite a long time...
07:23<Roelmb>but i used it allways the other way and it worked fine
07:24<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: what browser were you using earlier, when my giant-screenshot viewer didn't work for you?
07:24<@peter1138>yes, it's fine, as long as you want to waste a load of disk space
07:24<Terkhen>it works, but now you don't have to copy the files every time you start using a new binary
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: konqueror 4
07:24<Roelmb>ok thnx guys great help for me
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: google maps also has problems with konqueror...
07:25<SpComb>hehe
07:25<Roelmb>euhm now hes telling that he can't find the driver for direct music
07:25<SpComb>if it has a script debugger, it can be fixed...
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>Roelmb: maybe you should just follow the wiki on compiling _correctly_
07:27<Roelmb>I did it like it was standing their
07:28<@Rubidium>so you did the alternative that removed directmusic support
07:29<@peter1138>ahh, mangled english :D
07:29<Roelmb>not really i added these pathes and it gives that error
07:30<@Rubidium>Roelmb: when starting OpenTTD, right? So you did both the correct way and the alternative
07:31<roboboy>hm my Win7 Pro machine with MSVC 2008 express doesnt seem to have a make executable like someone in here said it should
07:31<roboboy>brb
07:32<roboboy>back
07:32<@Rubidium>Roelmb: open openttd.cfg and remove the line with music_driver; that should do the trick
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>hm... sometimes i hate not being a native english speaker...
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>i have a hard time getting "phonetic" jokes
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>like "ghost in zshell"
07:33<Roelmb>@rubidium:and where is that file in my solution
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>(where apparently "z" should be pronounced as the american "zee")
07:34<roboboy>it shou;d be in C:\Users\Roelmb\OpenTTD
07:34<@Rubidium>Roelmb: openttd.cfg is not part of the solution, it's part of the OpenTTD configuration; readme.txt tells where it can be
07:34<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: hmm, it starts working as soon as I open up the JavaScript debugger and reload :)
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: so it's a heisenbug ;)
07:34<Roelmb>ok i'll look for it
07:34<SpComb>of some sort
07:34<SpComb>the mousewheel doesn't seem to work there, and the zoom ui buttons are still hidden
07:35<Roelmb>rubidium: what will that do for my other versions of openttd
07:36<@Rubidium>possibly disable music
07:36<Roelmb>damn thats the thing I don't want too
07:36<roboboy>can we update the readme to include the path for Vista/7 to the users OpenTTD dir?
07:36<Roelmb>but the weird thing is I have music when i compile it
07:37<@Rubidium>then you're on one of the lucky systems where it works with the 'other' driver
07:38<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, native-american-english speakers... zed-shell doesn't work either
07:38<Roelmb>or not now the jukebox is runing throug every number at lightning speed
07:38<Roelmb>without willing to play it
07:38<@Rubidium>then it's using the 'null' driver which simply doesn't play songs
07:39<Roelmb>ok nevermind the music isn't that important
07:40<Roelmb>and rubidium it seams like you know the code by head :p
07:41<Xaroth>well seeing the amount of code he commits on a day-to-day basis.. yes, he does :p
07:41<Zuu>If someone should know the code by heart, then it is Rubibium judged by his astonishing activity.
07:42<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: does http://projects.qmsk.net/pngtile/screenshots/20091218/1998.png (i.e. without the # bit) load for you?
07:42<Roelmb>is their any way to learn the code by heart without runing true every file
07:42<roboboy>What should I do if I want the readme updated?
07:43<Roelmb>post it at the developers forum maybe?
07:45<Roelmb>euhm little question if I try to apply a diff file to my directory it opens tortoisemerge but i doesn't do anything else
07:46<Roelmb>not even applying the patch because after i compiled it it seems to have changed nothing
07:46<roboboy>right click one of the listed files
07:46<Roelmb>how do you mean
07:47<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: the zoom buttons still show up for me as long as I don't scroll around..
07:47<roboboy>it shows you a list of files to be patched right?
07:47<Roelmb>nope thats my problem it doesn't
07:49<roboboy>what happens if you right click on the folder containing the source and select tortoise merge then apply patch?
07:49<Roelmb>then it opens the tortoisemerge window and then nothing
07:49<Terkhen>I'd like to request that http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3318 type is changed to 'Core', operating system to 'all' and version to 'trunk'... as it stands is not correct... If there is something missing at the last diff file, I'd like to know it too
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: it says "Loading...", how long is that supposed to last?
07:51-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd752.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
07:51<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: until it loads... never, if the JavaScript is all bugged out :)
07:51<SpComb>(the "Loading..." is just a fixed text in the background with a low z-index)
07:52<roboboy>Roelmb: I get two windows the tortoise merge window and a patch files window or something do you get both?
07:52<SpComb>(although that's probably an abuse of z-index... seems to work, though)
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>Fehler: http://projects.qmsk.net/pngtile/screenshots/20091218/1998.png: ReferenceError: Can't find variable: Source
07:52<SpComb>that doesn't say much
07:52<Roelmb>roboboy: nope i don't get patch files list (with other patches I get it but not with the cargodist patch)
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>but that's all i get...
07:53<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: I didn't get any JS output at all when running it
07:53<SpComb>even though I have "Report errors" enabled in the settings
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: there's a little bug icon in the lower right corner
07:53<SpComb>don't see any
07:53<roboboy>I dont think CargoDist is a SVN patch but rather a Git patch
07:53<SpComb>there's some link of link-button
07:53<roboboy>can someone confirm?
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: yes, cargodist is developed with git
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07:54<Roelmb>oh and how do i use git because i don't understand anything of that
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>use "patch -p1 -i <file>" to patch
07:54<roboboy>and thats why Tortoise SVN does not like it
07:55<roboboy>search for tortoise git
07:55<Roelmb>oh i have cygwin now
07:55<Roelmb>i'll download the tortoise git then
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>Roelmb: cygwin comes with the command line patch tool
07:56<roboboy>where can I get the trunk using Git or the source to apply the patch with?
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>Roelmb: just run the command i said
07:56<Roelmb>ok i'll try
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>in the trunk/ directory, not in the src/
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07:57<Roelmb>where is file standing for is it standing for the patch
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the patch file
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07:58<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: it seems to work in konqueror 3.5
07:59<SpComb>barely, that seems to be what I'm using as well
07:59<Roelmb>it says unexpected token 'newline'
07:59<frosch123>hmm, either there are too few irc colours or too few letters in the alphabet
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: both ;)
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: well, at least i can see the picture there ;)
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>but it overlaps the buttons
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08:01<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: so scrolling works, but no zoom?
08:01<Roelmb>roboboy: it says mysis git install path error
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>scrolling works... zoom i'm testing now
08:01<SpComb>zoom works fine if you do it from the js console, but there's no UI for it
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>the zoom buttons are visible, when the images aren't loaded yet
08:02<SpComb>they stay visible for me as long as I don't drag the view
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>so zooming works, if you scroll to an area that has not been loaded
08:02<SpComb>but there's something positioning-related there, because the buttons also dissapear temporarily while dragging with FF
08:03<SpComb>i.e. dragging the substrate changes its position properties, and that causes the buttons to go under
08:03<SpComb>so it isn't purely a konq bug
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, but that doesn't help fixing the konqueror 4 error
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>where it doesn't show anything at all
08:07<SpComb>well... I'm liable to blame khtml
08:08<SpComb>this works in FF1.5, FF3, IE6, IE8, Chrome, Safari
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>that might be true, but it doesn't solve the problem either ;)
08:11<Roelmb>is git cloning always that slow
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08:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>it copies the whole repository, not just the checkout like svn
08:12<Roelmb>like how long it takes half,hour hour,...
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08:12<Eddi|zuHause>i'm told it's faster with "git:" instead of "http:"
08:13<Roelmb>ok i'll try that
08:13<roboboy>symlinks in Vista\& are a very handy feature of NTFS under said oses
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: NTFS supported those for 20 years, but the functionality was never exposed to users
08:14<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: try now, I fixed the z-index thing
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08:16<Eddi|zuHause>yeah seems to work
08:16<SpComb>seems to work semi-ok apart from the missing mousewheel on konq 3.5 now, sometimes the #bit bugs out to NaN:NaN or such
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it did that when i "open in konqueror/KDE3"'d it in konqueror 4
08:17<SpComb>i.e. using the reload button fails
08:17<SpComb>but copy-pasting the url into a new tab works
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>when i remove that, it comes up with proper numbers
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>probably you should check for those anyway
08:18<SpComb>yeah
08:19<ashb>Eddi|zuHause: before vista you could only symlink dirs, nbot files i thought
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: are you missing a signal at Prinnley station?
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>ashb: that i don't know about...
08:23<roboboy>hm
08:24<roboboy>it used to be only files using Junction Points
08:26<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: seems it isn't just the URL being something invalid when you refresh
08:26<ashb>roboboy: junction points are for dirs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS_junction_point
08:26<roboboy>hm
08:27<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: not really missing, but the signal on that platform should be a one-way signal
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08:27<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: yeah, that's the variant i would build
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08:28<SpComb>PRIN was originall a non-terminus station, but I guess I did a slight oversight when changing it to a semi-terminus
08:28<SpComb>*originally
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08:33<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: still no luck with konq 4, though?
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>no change...
08:34<SpComb>and no useful JS erorr output?
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08:36<SpComb>oh hey, I found konqueror 4 in /usr/lib/kde4/bin/konqueror
08:37<SpComb>but it doesn't say anything useful
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>weird, it looks different now that i enabled the debugger...
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>it now has a tiny bit of water in the upper left corner, the zoom in button is disabled, and it says "0x0@0"
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>and the error is gone...
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08:40<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: heh yes, it loaded for me once I did a bit of stepping through with the debugger
08:40<SpComb>the mousewheel works and everything
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>hm... seems to be different if JavaScript is enabled globally or just for some sites
08:42<SpComb>it has the same #NaN:NaN issue as konq3, but seems to work now
08:43<SpComb>i.e. I launch `/usr/lib/kde4/bin/konqueror http://projects.qmsk.net/pngtile/screenshots/20091218/1998.png` and it's all boo-hoo-NaN-undefined, but then if you backspace off the #bit in the url and hit enter, it loads
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>nope... not here...
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08:44<SpComb>no work?
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>it appends "#16352:8176:0" when loading, but the display still says "0x0@0"
08:44<SpComb>try copy-pasting, say, http://projects.qmsk.net/pngtile/screenshots/20091218/1998.png#6176:9736:0 into the URL bar
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>and only a tiny bit of water in the upper left corner
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that shows something
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>and i can scroll around now
08:45<Ammler>if I load it on the Konqueror, I see just "Loading..."
08:46<SpComb>Ammler: try enableing the JavaScript debugger or something :P
08:46<SpComb>Ammler: seems to work once you try and debug it
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that's what i got, until i switched JavaScript to "enable globally"
08:47<Ammler>well, I don't use Konqueror for web, was just wondering...
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: you have wrong parameter for level crossings...
08:47<SpComb>no dbsetxl-style ones?
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: dbsetxl has a parameter to disable the level crossings, so it won't override the TTRS ones
08:48<SpComb>ah well
08:49<Ammler>your png viewer is damn cool
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>it's very slow... :( [probably my connection]
08:50<SpComb>it seems to occasionall be very slow in konq, but then it goes all fast again when you re-open it
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to these gradually refining images that were "cool" around 10 years ago?
08:50<SpComb>ugh, interlacing
08:50<Ammler>that was a jpg feature, wasn't?
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i have seen it in pngs, too
08:50<SpComb>there are interlaced PNGs as well
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08:51<SpComb>they're just kind of annoying to handle
08:51<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: anyways, if it seems slow, then try re-opening it a couple times
08:51<SpComb>it'll probably go away
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08:52<Eddi|zuHause>it's funny when i scroll around, some images pop up almost instantly, and the rest doesn't seem to appear at all
08:52<gergorycu>Hi there guys
08:52<SpComb>that's partially a backend issue
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>it looks like a swiss chese
08:52<Ammler>it should be somehow possible to make that giant screen on a dedicated server
08:52<gergorycu>I'm having a bit of a problem running the game on a friends computer
08:52<gergorycu>I'm running 1.0.0-beta2
08:52<SpComb>Ammler: I think it's possible if you run it with a blitter, haven't tried, though
08:53<gergorycu>The rail construction icon is greyed out
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>gergorycu: means you started too early for rail vehicles to be available
08:53<gergorycu>In fact, anything specific to building transport is greyed out
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>gergorycu: start in 1950 or load some NewGRFs
08:54<gergorycu>Ahh
08:54<gergorycu>Thank you
08:54<gergorycu>That fixed it
08:54<gergorycu>But, all road depots were also greyed out
08:54<gergorycu>But roads were not
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, roads can be built without road vehicles available, since towns need them
08:55<gergorycu>I suppose road stuff becomes vailable after a certain time too?
08:55<gergorycu>So, you can play the game without being able to build any transport stuff?
08:55<gergorycu>If you get my meaning
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you can "play", but you cannot actually do anything
08:56<gergorycu>Yeah, that's what I mean
08:56<gergorycu>Ok, thank you so much for your help
08:56<gergorycu>I was wondering if it were some strange glitch or something
08:56<gergorycu>And I misread the starting date as "1950" when it was "1850"
08:56<gergorycu>Silly me
08:56<gergorycu>Thank you again
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09:01<Ammler>SpComb: something like openttd --create-giant-screen yoursave.sav > yoursave.png
09:01<SpComb>Ammler: that would be useful, yes
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09:03<SpComb>Ammler: it would also be neat if you could script a dedicated server to take a giant screenshot every 10 years or so
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>pause the server first ;)
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09:04<Eddi|zuHause>Brianetta made "webcam" shots for a while, until the blitter rewrite killed them
09:05<Xaroth>yeh :(
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>you shouldn't need much more than changing the blitter to enable screenshots
09:06<SpComb>the JS frontend's starting to be in pretty good shape now, apart from some bugs with the coordinates getting corrupted if zooming too fast
09:07<Ammler>sometimes, my half screen is grey
09:07<SpComb>Ammler: slow update or it stays stuck like that until you move it again?
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>i think for me it was the latter
09:08<SpComb>it's probably some kind of race-condition with the event handling :(
09:08<Ammler>SpComb, yes, the latter
09:08<SpComb>unless it has the window size wrong, a refresh should fix that
09:08<Ammler>the faster I move the more gets grey
09:09<SpComb>hmm.. grey as in the background color?
09:09<Ammler>yes, I guess
09:10<SpComb>sometimes I manage to select/higlight the <img> elements, which is annoying
09:10<Ammler>yep, the get blueish...
09:10<SpComb>ah yes
09:10<SpComb>it's just the mouse cursor doing funny tricks, presumably in the area where the images aren't yet fully loaded
09:11<SpComb>but as long as the #foo stuff is working, refreshing the page should get you back to where you were
09:11<Ammler>or in that part, which get grey
09:12<SpComb>would need some CSS trick to make the bits un-selectable
09:12<SpComb>but, I must go, just realized I'm already late
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09:33<Timmaexx>New Airports is really nice!+
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09:38<Eddi|zuHause>hm... is there an ingame way to remove old AIs?
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>i have NoCAB v19 and v336, that doesn't look right ;)
09:39<+glx>not ingame
09:40<+glx>looks correct if the savegame used v19 and a new AI started with v336 later
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09:41<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18763 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Feature [FS#3095]: rerandomise AIs on reloading (via the debug window) when they were randomly chosen
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09:43<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18764 /trunk/src/ (12 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3422]: split the (un)load ticks counter and signal wait counter; sometimes they might get into eachother's way
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09:57<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18765 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3499] (r18750): crash when trying to show cargo payments when there are 'holes' in the cargospec array
10:00<Timmaexx>Why does the colour of planes change, if they land on NewAirports?
10:03<@Rubidium>because of a bug?
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10:07<Zuu>Timmaexx: Does they?
10:07<Timmaexx>Zuu: Jep
10:07<Zuu>Didn't notice..
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10:08<Timmaexx>I had a green FFP Dart wich is green like the colour of company and if it lands, and is on diagonal airport, its colour changes to some kind of darkgreen
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10:08<Zuu>Did you manage to order an aircraft to go to the land based turbine?
10:10<Zuu>hmm, yes, there seems to be something shading the airplane
10:15<Zuu>Are you sure you had an FFP Dart? I can't order large aircrafts to the diagonal airport.
10:21<Zuu>The water turbine is interesting. You can't join a dock with it nor an airport.
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10:24<Timmaexx>Think it was bakewell luckett lb9 sorry
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10:33<__ln>http://kuvaton.com/kuvei/404_train_not_found.jpg
10:33<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18766 /trunk/src/ (rail.h table/railtypes.h train_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Make train acceleration type (rail/elrail/monorail vs maglev) a rail type property
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11:05<Eddi|zuHause>:p
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>damn
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>i meant
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>:o
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>__ln: looks photoshopped...
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11:36<Muxy>has someone recently compiled trunk with MSVC 2005 ?
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11:40<Muxy>*compiled successfully i mean
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11:48<Zuu>Not recently, migrated to 2008 some 6 months ago or so.
11:49<Zuu>Did you just install 2005?
11:49<Zuu>Ie, did you install the service pack?
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11:50<Muxy>not installed recently, not modified since november 2009
11:50<Muxy>release 8.0.50727.762 SP.050727-7600 pfff
11:52<Muxy>lot of warning with var re-declaration in for loop with var declared in the function body
11:53<Muxy>and 2 id not declared
11:53<Muxy>coz of #define strangly placed
11:56<Muxy>problem located into network/core/os_bastraction.h on line 43 #define AI_ADRCONFIG is not set in win32
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11:56<Zuu>I can't help you, but for the person who maybe can help you, what version of OpenTTD is it that you try to compile?
11:57<Muxy>trunk
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11:58<@Rubidium>2005? Maybe the PSDK is too old?
11:59<Muxy>Rubidium: problem in os_abstraction.h line 43 with #define AI_ADDRCONFIG who is not active in Win32
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11:59*Muxy thinks line 39 #else should be replaced with #endif
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>Muxy: if it worked before, it is generally advised to find the revision that broke it by bisection
12:01<+glx>nothing changed there recently IIRC
12:02<Muxy>yeap Eddi, good advise.
12:03<@Rubidium>Muxy: the problem is that with TOO old platform SDKs that isn't defined
12:03*Muxy will load 0.7.5 release and check
12:03<@Rubidium>the existing define is for mingw/cygwin
12:04<@Rubidium>and it's quite simple... it's happened just before IPv6 support got into trunk
12:04<@Rubidium>so, a month of 8-ish ago
12:04<Muxy>it means that AI_ADDRCONFIG is not used in Win32 MSVC
12:05<Muxy>and should be defined in more recent SKD then
12:05<@Rubidium>as 0.7 was branched before IPv6 support, that doesn't have that code
12:05<+glx>Muxy: it is defined in platform SDK
12:05<+glx>and it is used :)
12:05<Muxy>okay, then i will update my SDK as Rubidium said
12:07<+glx>I have 6.0A and it's ok there (SDK installed by 2008 express)
12:07<@Rubidium>"The AI_ADDRCONFIG flag is defined on the Windows SDK for Windows Vista and later"
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12:19<Cathal>hey
12:20<Cathal>anyone there
12:20<Alberth>no, everyone is asleep
12:20<Cathal>alright, i'll call back another time :P
12:21<Alberth>something you want to know?
12:21<Cathal>Yeah, so r u involved in modifying OpenTTD?
12:21<Alberth>no irc speak please
12:21<Cathal>whats irc speak?
12:21<Alberth>some times
12:22<Alberth>'words' like r and u
12:22<Cathal>whats wrong with ircspeak, we r in an irc
12:22<Alberth>it is hard to read
12:23<Cathal>Alright, apologies. So what part of the project are you involved in my good man?
12:23<Alberth>I changed all widgets in all windows, currently looking for something else
12:24<sawtooth>how much for that widget in the window?
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12:25<andythenorth_>@seen yexo
12:25<@DorpsGek>andythenorth_: yexo was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 52 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Yexo> andythenorth: it's be as simple as a single varaction2 (not a varaction2 chain, a single sprite)
12:25<Alberth>andythenorth_: he was here this morning, but left
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12:25<Cathal>Nice, sounds good. So has anyone here ever played the game Cossacks, I've started a mod project for it, wondering if anyone is interested in helping?
12:25<Alberth>andythenorth_: he said 'see you on monday'
12:26<andythenorth_>Alberth: thanks
12:26<andythenorth_>New airports work in progress is *way* cool
12:26<Alberth>Cathal: wouldn't #cossacks not be a better place to ask?
12:27<Alberth>andythenorth_: yes the diagonal airport looks great :) I need to try it some time soon
12:28<andythenorth_>If the state machine could handle loading while hovering....helicopter logging awaits :)
12:28<andythenorth_>And heli-skiing :)
12:28<Cathal>Just went there, but its empty, i'm sorry for the self promotion, just seeking some help, and everyone here does have some interest in game modification as a hobby, so it seems like a good place to start
12:29<Alberth>Cathal: it could very easily be seen as spamming arbitrary channels with off-topic questions
12:29<Alberth>Cathal: at least I interpret it as such
12:29<Alberth>andythenorth_: all in good time :)
12:30<andythenorth_>yes well, of course :)
12:30<andythenorth_>drawing graphics would also take some time :)
12:30<Alberth>andythenorth_: the whole state machine stuff worries me a bit, it looks so complicated to get right.
12:31<andythenorth_>me too
12:32<Cathal>I know, its too bad that IRC is so filled with trolls these days that genuine users have difficulty using them. I've already started off with the project, just looking for some help with ideas and such. Here is a link to the temporary home of the project until I can get a proper domain sorted (http://cossacksmodproject.blogspot.com/)
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12:37<DaZ>y, cossacks were awesome.
12:40<Ammler>doesn't look opensource or cross platform.
12:43<Cathal>Really no-one is modifying Cossacks on a large scale, i think it has quite a lot of potential. Its not opensource but the developers are open to players modifying the game themselves, they released a modification utility pack, which is easy to use, it basically involves modifying .txt files, allowing almost any aspect of the game to be altered
12:44<frosch123>.txt? why not .xml?
12:44<frosch123>(sorry, insider joke)
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>the modding ability of Civ4 is insane, they released basically the entire source code, except the graphics engine and the copy protection
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12:51<Cathal>Thanks for listening anyway guys, just come to the site if you change your mind http://cossacksmodproject.blogspot.com
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12:58<Muxy>PSDK update sucessfull. back to adapt watch company to trunk
12:58<andythenorth_>frosch123: some ponies escaped...http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46689
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13:01<PeterT>Where do I report somebody on the wiki named "LordAro"?
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13:03<frosch123>LordAro, isn't that the one who disliked mixing his letters?
13:04<PeterT>can you explain the phrase "mixing his letters"?
13:06<frosch123>andythenorth_: already read it, and already collected the stuff that accumulated on my desk wrt. parameters over the last months, which resulted in a largerish text... might finish it after doing some other stuff :s
13:06<andythenorth_>:)
13:06<frosch123>PeterT: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44805
13:06<frosch123>andythenorth_: but mind, that i am usually better in talking than implementing :p
13:07<PeterT>frosch123: I see.
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13:07<PeterT>So, How do I report him, exactly/
13:07<andythenorth_>frosch123: I have more newgrf sets finished in my brain than in reality
13:07<andythenorth_>:P
13:07<PeterT>He's been making images smaller so that they can fit HIS screen
13:08<@Rubidium>PeterT: what is there to report?
13:08<PeterT>Rubidium: Above you
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: the historically proper action in wiki-evolution is an "edit war" ;)
13:09<PeterT>or "who-can-make-the-most-reverts-in-a-day war"
13:09<@Rubidium>I can make the most reverts in a day
13:10<PeterT>I know
13:10<frosch123>why, an edit fight about 3 pixels?
13:10<@Rubidium>anyhow, what's the point in reverting something that makes the page look *way* better on his computer if it's a fracking 3 pixels?
13:10<@Rubidium>although, 3 pixels are not enough
13:11<@Rubidium>also... who's the person that just trashed a complete page without good reason?
13:11<PeterT>if you're referring to my user talk, that would be me
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13:15<@Rubidium>also... deleting stuff from talk pages isn't needed at all. It's good to keep those as it describes the reasoning for things
13:15<PeterT>Rubidium: The point was that I don't want LordAro on my page... at all
13:15<PeterT>http://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Dual_Tetrathorp-Junction&curid=6779&diff=35325&oldid=35313
13:15<@Rubidium>it's not your page
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: with that attitude, please go sit in your corner and don't touch the wiki at all
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>it's a wiki, it's per definition not anybody's page.
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13:18<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: Then can I go to LordAro's userpage and call him stupid?
13:19<@Rubidium>well... it has been done and no amount of removing stuff (by you) gets it out of the history of the page
13:19<PeterT>I didn't do it
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: insult is a crime in most jurisdiction, has nothing to do with who the page belongs to.
13:20<@Rubidium>and where on the page did he call you stupid?
13:21<PeterT>"<PeterT> http://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Dual_Tetrathorp-Junction&curid=6779&diff=35325&oldid=35313
13:22<@Rubidium>so... then you could have asked for removing that instead of removing his valid comment (and all others) on the talk page
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13:24<PeterT>that's true
13:25<andythenorth_>PeterT: just go and play the game and get over it. life is too short for internet pissant nonsense
13:26*andythenorth_ lost the game
13:29<andythenorth_>Terkhen: for FIRS, is it the number of industries on the map, or the number of industry types that is disturbing? :o
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: my experience with ECS is that the increase in industry types also increases the raw number of industries on the map
13:32<andythenorth_>Eddi|zuHause: true, but that's quite easily dealt with
13:33<PeterT>Has anybody had success building a 64-bit build on a 32-bit system with MSVC?
13:33<PeterT>(or any compiler, for that fact)
13:33<andythenorth_>the probability is easy to control, and someone has written a nice method for scaling probablity with map size
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>imho the method to scale with mapsize is one of the problems
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>some people want bigger maps to have more stuff on it, and other people want bigger maps to have more space inbetween
13:34<+glx>PeterT: yes any user with full MSVC
13:34<PeterT>Ah, not just Express Editions
13:35<+glx>express version don't have 64bit compilers
13:35<andythenorth_>Eddi|zuHause: but there's an option :) "No. of industries"
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>imho, the industry density options should include different scaling (e.g. "very low" doesn't scale at all above 256, "low" scales linearly, "high" scales quadratically)
13:38<Terkhen>andythenorth_: both, but the number of industries on the map is easily solved
13:38<andythenorth_>Terkhen: have you ever played with PBI?
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13:39<Terkhen>yes... but I didn't like stockpiling
13:39<andythenorth_>fair enough
13:40<andythenorth_>I am trying to judge how many industries is 'right' for basic FIRS. There is no typical player of course :)
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13:41<Terkhen>is this information available as a graph somewhere? http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>i remember i had some tries with graphs in the thread
13:42<andythenorth_>Terkhen: George3 did one, it's out of date now.
13:42<andythenorth_>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=109163
13:43<Terkhen>thanks
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>it's fairly difficult to get nice looking graphs out of graphviz
13:43<andythenorth_>some thing like this is needed: http://hawkdawg.com/img/rrt/rt3/1024_Industry_Chart.jpg
13:44<andythenorth_>Incidentally, RT3 has about 48 industries...
13:45<andythenorth_>FIRS currently builds about 35. I've deleted about 9, and I'm trying to find more to delete.
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18767 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: min/max income tooltips for the details performance statistics mentioned months whereas it should be quarters.
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r18768 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: czech - 4 changes by ReisRyos
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: dutch - 61 changes by Hirundo
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: indonesian - 43 changes by fanioz
13:47<andythenorth_>I think I'll get rid of the dairy farm / milk chain, that's two industries gone
13:48<Terkhen>andythenorth_: I want to try FIRS anyways, without knowing its industry scheme I can't give an opinion about which industries should be removed... but I see a lot of industry chains that end up producing food so probably milk chain is a good option
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14:19<PeterT>Any solutions to this? http://wiki.openttd.org/Talk:32bpp_Extra_Zoom_Levels#Problems_with_a_link
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14:21<Hirundo>Link to 'Compiling' ?
14:23<andythenorth_>proposal for *much* smaller FIRS http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607&p=847238#p847238
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14:26<Terkhen>water plant and water tower are missing
14:28<andythenorth_>Terkhen: I've updated the proposal. The list given is Temperate / Arctic only. Tropic would include Water
14:28<andythenorth_>thanks though :)
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14:43<fjb>Hm, basic FIRS and later themed add on packs?
14:44<andythenorth_>fjb: something like that. I have a plan.
14:44<andythenorth_>I couldn't care less about basic FIRS, it's boring
14:44<andythenorth_>but it might be necessary
14:45<Terkhen>for newbies like me :P
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, two levels of complexity sound ok
14:45<sparr>which GRFs do I need to load with ECS to get vehicles that can carry the new resources (particularly sand)?
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>in george's ECS you can reduce complexity by leaving out vectors
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: depends
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: easiest is probably "old wagons, new cargos"
14:46<sparr>I played my first game with ECS recently, and couldn't transport sand
14:46<andythenorth_>NARS 2 is pretty comprehensive
14:47<andythenorth_>should support ECS fine
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>the DBSetXL needs an ECS extension
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise pretty much all major train sets should support ECS
14:48<andythenorth_>hmmm....the thing that really sucks about my FIRS basic proposal is that it's just mostly the default industries
14:48<fjb>And the popular road vehicle sets do.
14:49<sparr>fjb: "the popular road vehicle sets" is unhelpful. pretend you're talking to someone who isn't already familiar with every GRF available
14:50<fjb>sparr: Just take a look at GRF crawler.
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14:50<andythenorth_>meh. if 9 out of 21 FIRS industries already exist in the default game, where's the interest?
14:50*fjb is.
14:51<andythenorth_>sparr was sulky :o
14:51<sparr>fjb: and pick one at random?
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: i like PBI because it does not add too much clutter, like ECS does.
14:51<sparr>andythenorth_: thanks, I'll use NARS
14:51<andythenorth_>sparr: try eGRVTS and HEQS. Or LV4
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>it does fine with adding complexity without adding a lot more industries
14:52<sparr>it seems like there should be some sort of dependency system, so that the game would warn a player before starting a game with ECS without vehicles that can transport ECS cargos
14:52<fjb>FIRS has nicer graphics and industries changing over time were announced as a feature.
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: that is impossible to decide...
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14:52<sparr>or if not a dependency system then an actual check... list of cargos, list of transportable cargos
14:53<sparr>hell, you could just count... if there are 17 cargo types and only 12 transportable cargos, something is wrong
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: again, that is impossible, because available cargos might be dependent on some conditions
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14:53<fjb>sparr: Do you need somebody who binds you shoe laces?
14:53<sparr>fjb: yes, would you? :-p
14:53<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: what sort of conditions?
14:53<fjb>Definitely not.
14:54*Terkhen wonders if OpenGFX+ will have standard-like vehicles to carry new cargos
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: no, as that is a change of gameplay, which cannot be part of a base set
14:54<Terkhen>OpenGFX+, not OpenGFX
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>ah...
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what that is ;)
14:55<@Rubidium>whatever they want to be in OpenGFX but can't put in it
14:55<sparr>fjb: I wanted to try ECS. The documentation (read: forum post) for ECS said I should be good with any subset of the ECS GRFs. I naively assumed that the game wouldn't be dumb enough to start an unplayable game
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14:56<sparr>fjb: assuming such a check could be implemented, which may be impossible, what is the use case where such an unplayable game is a desirable outcome?
14:57<sparr>JigabuMemin is spamming
14:57<JigabuMemin>I am not
14:58<fjb>sparr: The game is not unplayable only because not every cargo can be transported. And why should somebody who wants to only transport some of the cargoes be forced to load other vehicle sets?
15:00<sparr>fjb: "some" is random, and possibly inaccurate. are there GRFs that replace all of the cargos? or that replace all of the base trains with non-standard cargo trains?
15:01<sparr>or, more generally, can there be?
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: the problem is not "are there GRFs" but rather "could there possibly be GRFs"
15:01<andythenorth_>fjb: for FIRS basic around 3 industries would change between 1900 and 1930, that's about it for changing
15:01<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: yes
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>as in "does the GRF spec allow implementing this"
15:01<sparr>if it does, then such an unplayable game is possible, and the argument in favor of the check I am advocating is stronger
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: there is no warning if you start too early either.
15:02<sparr>yes, that is also quite annoying, I've done that a couple of times (once with different GRFs)
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15:03<sparr>taking a step back, I think the more general issue that I am trying to point out is that there is no way to get most sorts of information about GRFs (their compatibility with each other being one case) without playing through the game
15:05<sparr>I never have any idea if/when new vehicles are coming, or which wagons work with which locomotives, or whether a particular GRF just adds new things or also removes old things
15:05<andythenorth>sparr: the better grf sets include a read me
15:06<sparr>how do you know if they do, via the online content service? or find it, if they do?
15:06<sparr>I happen to be comfortable digging around in ~/.openttd, but I think I am unusual in that respect.
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15:06<andythenorth>it's a valid point, we discussed it a few days ago
15:06<andythenorth>no solution though
15:07<SpComb>GRFs are confusing, yes
15:09<fjb>And it's just a game. So play around with it.
15:10<SpComb>well, it's annoying to notice you're missing some wagons late in the game
15:10<SpComb>and various gotchas like food in alpine
15:11<sparr>what SpComb said
15:11<sparr>if I knew up front, it wouldn't be a problem
15:11-!-George3 is now known as George
15:11<sparr>but when I find out 8 hours into a game... :(
15:11<SpComb>but basically, you depend on the NewGRF projects themselves to get that info
15:13<sparr>they have no easy way to get it to me
15:13<sparr>easy for them and/or easy for me
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15:16<sparr>anyway, on another topic...
15:17<sparr>a message that tells you when a delivery would have made more money had it been shorter. thoughts?
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>wtf?
15:19<sparr>there's a message when a vehicle has negative yearly profit
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15:20<sparr>i recently became aware of the nature of the cargo delivery value function, and the quirk that shorter deliveries pay more in some situations. i'd like to know that on a per-delivery basis, without having to fake a measurement tool and do a bunch of math manually
15:21<andythenorth>sparr: use the cargo graphs?
15:22<sparr>andythenorth: there was a patch to provide such graphs, but it's a few thousand revisions out of date
15:22<sparr>unless I am missing something
15:22<andythenorth>what's wrong with cargo payment rate graphs?
15:23<sparr>their mathematical implications are not clear
15:23<fjb>andythenorth: You have to think by your own.
15:23<sparr>*I* can't do that math in my head
15:23<sparr>and I'm pretty good at math
15:24<sparr>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=31984 <-- this
15:24<sparr>the math involved in determining that ~140 tiles is the optimal delivery distance for Valuables (at 33km/h) is nontrivial
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15:25<@Rubidium>the optimimum is, at least for slow vehicles 4000-ish tiles
15:25<sparr>?
15:26<sparr>oh, you mean the part of the graph after the bump
15:26<@Rubidium>travel time is capped at something like 2 game years
15:27<sparr>valuables at 33km/h pay more for 140 tiles than for 300 tiles
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15:28<Rhamphoryncus>sparr: is that per-tile, per-time, per-investment, or per-production?
15:28<@Rubidium>so for the profit calculations the travel time is at that, so if a vehicle at speed N makes 400 tiles in 2 years, making 4000 tiles would take 20, but the vehicle would be paid as if it was going at speed N*10
15:29<sparr>Rubidium: yes, for very slow vehicles. for some definition of very slow.
15:30<PeterT>Hirundo: Thanks for fixing the wiki
15:30<PeterT>Didin't think of that ;-)
15:30<sparr>Rhamphoryncus: all of the above, i think
15:31<Rhamphoryncus>hrm right, they're related
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15:32<Rhamphoryncus>My tendency has been to use super long routes
15:32<sparr>as has mine
15:32<sparr>for VERY long routes it can pay off
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15:32<sparr>but there is a large gap where it pays less
15:32<SpComb>how much does it matter?
15:33<sparr>SpComb: considering ONLY income, factors of 2-3.
15:33<sparr>SpComb: considering also all the extra infrastructure being wasted on the longer deliveries... more.
15:33*andythenorth grumpy
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15:34<Rhamphoryncus>If you have an existing long track, but can only afford one train.. that'd push even more towards a shorter route, wouldn't it?
15:34<sparr>yes
15:35<sparr>if you aren't delivering the full capacity of the industry, that also makes the shorter route a stronger candidate
15:35<sparr>if your track is at its train carrying capacity, then too
15:36<Terkhen>andythenorth: because of the simplified FIRS?
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15:36<sparr>fjb: the math is complex enough, and the variables poorly documented enough, that I am not even sure that I am doing it right.
15:37<sparr>I am relatively certain that the SHAPE of the data I am getting is right (that is, the peak and valley do exist), but their locations could be incorrect
15:37<andythenorth>Terkhen: yes. I think there's a way to do it right, but I'm not sure what yet. You're by no means the only one who would like a simpler version.
15:40<sparr>SpComb: taking a real game example... delivering 100 units of coal at 144km/h (UKRS? cap), at 90% effective speed (accounting for track wiggles, turnarounds, etc), 660 tiles pays about $21900, while 1100 tiles pays about $9500
15:40<Terkhen>the biggest problem is knowing what the user was really playing while debugging future problems?
15:40<andythenorth>Terkhen: no, I think that's solvable
15:40<sparr>SpComb: knowing this fundamentally changed my network design in two games
15:40<andythenorth>the biggest problem is designing an entertaining gameplay :)
15:41<sparr>512x512 maps, so I WAS making some 900+ tile deliveries, until I learned this
15:42<andythenorth>it's been suggested that Railroad Tycoon would be an ideal model for a 'simpler' new industry set
15:42<andythenorth>but RT2 has 35 industries and RT3 has about 48
15:42<andythenorth>I am trying to get FIRS down to about 24
15:43<fjb>andythenorth: Don't hunt every suggestion. Railroad Tycoon is not TTD.
15:43<Terkhen>I have never played any RT
15:43<andythenorth>fjb: oddly enough, FIRS is almost entirely based on RT3
15:43*andythenorth has played many hours of RT3
15:44<andythenorth>About 24 is also the suggested number of industries for FIRS by players who want a simpler version
15:44<andythenorth>so there are various contradictions I am trying to resolve
15:44<Terkhen>and how will you add all other industries to the simple version? other GRFs?
15:44<andythenorth>Parameter
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>i have nothing against a "simple" and a "complex" version
15:45<andythenorth>It will actually be nicer than just 'simple' and 'complex'
15:45<andythenorth>With planetmaker's help, we have a way to use a single parameter to change several aspects of the gameplay
15:46<andythenorth>this means FIRS will feature various full 'cargo economies'
15:46<andythenorth>The cargo payment rates will vary, there will be some special 'bonus' industries, and the probability of industries on the map will vary
15:46<PeterT>have you seen this? this is an amazing markup of new GUI: http://homepage.mac.com/jbadcock/openttd/openttd.html
15:46<sparr>fjb: now, if YOU can do the math in your head, I would appreciate a confirmation that I am doing it right. even if you can, that doesn't make it any less hard for the rest of us. and if you can't, then your "you have to think by your own." was both condescending and hypocritical.
15:47<fjb>andythenorth: That makes already the base set interesting.
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: if you think it can be improved, how about you start implementing, instead of shouting around your incapacities?
15:48<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: if I think what can be improved?
15:48<andythenorth>fjb: the base set will just be parameter 0 - default, with normal cargo payment rates
15:48<andythenorth>the other values for that parameter will be much more interesting...
15:49<Terkhen>sounds good :)
15:49<sparr>I am already trying to bring the New Graphs patch up to date, but it's old and fails a lot
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>the window system changed a lot, you're probably going to have to rewrite most of it
15:50<fjb>sparr: I make so much money in every game that I don't care for the optimum distance. And experience and some thinking tells me that it is unwise to send cargo which looses its value fast on long routes with slow vehicles.
15:50<andythenorth>one more FIRS question: why would you even try FIRS instead of playing default industries? (I ask as I have an idea about an alternative base set of industries)
15:51*fjb would.
15:51<andythenorth>fjb: why though?
15:51-!-Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1b66b.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: bis dann]
15:51<fjb>I like your graphics better.
15:52<sparr>fjb: actually, the cargos that lose value fast are more appropriate for long routes and slow vehicles. so much for experience and thinking.
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: for me the reason to stop using default industries is that the industry chains are "simple" and nothing forces you to deliver to more than one secondary industry per map
15:52<andythenorth>If FIRS didn't feature most of the default industries, would that appeal more or less?
15:52-!-Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd
15:53<andythenorth>No fricking power station for example :P
15:53<sparr>fjb: the curve goes up to a peak, then down, then up again with no cap. if the first peak is low/narrow enough, then the second upwards slope is the best case
15:53<SpComb>hmm, MB's alpine grf readme doesn't really clarify the food situation
15:53<Terkhen>because it is standard-like enough for me (no stockpiling, no GRF combinations) but adds new possibilities to the game, and more possible lines at a single game
15:53<sparr>fjb: but if the first peak is high/wide, like it is for the non-perishable resources, then that peak is the best case
15:53<SpComb>it just says that they need food, but it doens't say you can produce or transport it :P
15:54<Terkhen><andythenorth> If FIRS didn't feature most of the default industries, would that appeal more or less? <--- as long as some necessary roles are fulfilled (moneymaker, etc), I don't think it would matter
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: i think that alpine 0.2 comes with the readme for alpine 0.1
15:54<SpComb>http://openttdcoop.org/newgrfs/ottdc_grfpack/2_landscape/alpine/alpineclimate_en.html
15:54<sparr>fjb: i assume you have a lot more experience with openttd than i do. that you would get this wrong illustrates how non-obvious the behavior is
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: my knowledge about alpine food comes from confronting HIM with it
15:55<fjb>sparr: You also have to take the vehicle running costs over that time into account and the turn around time.
15:55<SpComb>but doesn't temparate have some kind of snow line as well now?
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: no, only in TTDPatch
15:56<SpComb>confusing
15:56<SpComb>but alpine + PBI = no-no
15:57<andythenorth>in default TTD, transporting oil pretty much always sucks. Would it be too weird if oil refineries produced fuel and chemicals with ni input cargo?
15:57<andythenorth>IRL lots of oil is delivered by pipeline anyway
15:58<sparr>fjb: running costs are linear. turn around time is effectively constant. i fail to see how either of those are factors?
15:58<Terkhen>I have tried a lot of times transporting oil with ships... very frustrating, I wouldn't miss it
15:58<fjb>We need pipelines.
15:58<andythenorth>fjb: we do. but we don't :P
15:59<andythenorth>fjb: bingo, a way to implement pipelines
15:59<andythenorth>use a railtype
15:59<sparr>fjb: regardless of all the factors... the point remains that for SOME cargos, on SOME map sizes, delivering halfway across the map is more profitable than delivering all the way across the map. and figuring that information out is Hard.
15:59<fjb>sparr: Just try it out.
15:59<SpComb>and invisible vehicles
16:00<andythenorth>use invisible trains. Make them maximum speed, no runnign cost
16:00<andythenorth>oh yes what SpComb said
16:00<andythenorth>you'd still have to route vehicles
16:00<SpComb>and get them back
16:00<andythenorth>it could be implemented with newgrf, no patch needed
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: imho that's a "bug", not a "feature"
16:00<sparr>I doubt there's anyone in here who could come up with the optimal delivery distances without at least a calculator
16:01<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: I am inclined to agree, esp considering that it makes perishable goods BETTER to deliver long distances
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: a pipeline doesn't have "infinite speed"
16:01<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: that is, coal is better at 500 tiles than at 1000, but fruit is better at 1000 than 500
16:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: why not code the grf and set the correct speed then :D
16:02<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: which seems to be opposite the original intent
16:03<fjb>andythenorth: Pipelines have also to be routed. So no problem.
16:03<andythenorth>someone get coding then...
16:03<andythenorth>let me know when it's done :)
16:03<sparr>pipelines don't have to run both directions :)
16:04<Terkhen>use trams then
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16:04<andythenorth>hmm.. would need new road types for that. What's peter1138 up to right now?
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16:05<fjb>One way vehicles.
16:06<andythenorth>fjb: not in the current newgrf spec :o
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: like i said before, your criticism lacks constructivity
16:07<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: ??
16:08<sparr>I am tring to get the New Graphs patch to work. It didn't get into trunk last time, probably won't again this time, but at least I'm trying.
16:08<sparr>I'm not the one who brought up the cargo payment rates being a bug
16:09*Terkhen is out of things to code
16:09<SpComb>Terkhen: fractional days in timetables
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: then would you accept a feature request: show not only the theoretical delivery graph, but also a histogram about how actual deliveries in {the last | this} year position on that graph
16:10<Terkhen>I understand a lot of parts of the code by now, but I still have to understand how timetables work ingame :P
16:10<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: I can try. that will require a lot more changes, but it doesn't seem impossible
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16:11<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: the ITiM patch needs updating to the new window system, and parts of it have gone to trunk, so that needs fiddling
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't need much knowledge about how the timetables actually work ;)
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: alternately, a system how to introduce more fine grained payments (values < 1£)
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16:14<Terkhen>I would find frustrating to code something that I don't understand... I get that feeling too much already when coding for my classes
16:14<Terkhen>why do you need decimal payments?
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>both internal representation, conversion factor and rounding for other currencies and a decimal separator for display
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: daylength could benefit from it
16:15<Terkhen>I thought that was already handled, besides showing decimal payments at the GUI
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>not that i know
16:17<Terkhen>I still have to try the latest daylenght patch (it seems simpler), but the other ones seem overcomplicated to me
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16:18<Eddi|zuHause>all daylength patches i have seen had the problem that monthly/yearly costs were multiplied by daylength, instead of delivery costs reduced
16:18<Terkhen>I almost completed a conversion of the standard vehicles and industries to simulate daylength, but I was missing a crucial feature
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16:20<Terkhen>that sounds reasonable, I suppose delivery costs are not reduced because of the internal representation not allows operating with smaller values
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16:21<andythenorth>Terkhen: do you understand anything of the code that supports nfo / newgrf?
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>exactly. i once tried to reduce payment, but my trams ended up getting 0 payment
16:23<Terkhen>andythenorth: only really simple stuff, I know how to add vehicle properties to action 0 and to callback 36
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16:23<Terkhen>and just because I only had to add new options to existing code
16:23<andythenorth>oh well.
16:24<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46689
16:24<andythenorth>I was wondering about industry var 68
16:25<andythenorth>and extending it...
16:25<SpComb>Terkhen: simpler is an understatement
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16:28<Terkhen>SpComb: just a single parameter to influence everything, right?
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16:29<SpComb>Terkhen: well, in terms of the actual .patch
16:30<Terkhen>are you planning to introduce more parameters?
16:30<SpComb>not really
16:30<SpComb>although it may end up being a necessity
16:30<SpComb>but it's something to avoid
16:31<Terkhen>sounds good then, I'll try it in my next game
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>i always modded my daylength patches to not add the value to the savegame, makes porting the savegame to newer versions easier
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16:35<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/basic_firs_proposal#proposal_2
16:35<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: I did consider that, but breaking savegame compat is something you tend to end up doing anyways :(
16:36<Terkhen>my builds always break savegame compatibility, as a result I usually don't bother about porting my games to new versions
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16:38<asilv>andythenorth: is there need for both gravel and sand? as they are quite similar cargoes and could be imo merged into one more generic cargo?
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16:38<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: did you find a good fix for the timetable autofill?
16:38-!-Tennel_ [~andreas@88.150.10.254] has quit []
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: i didn't search for one
16:38-!-fjb [~frank@p5485FA4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: likely there's one in ITiM
16:39<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: I mean, didn't you patch in something yourself?
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16:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, replacing it by ORIG_DAY_TICKS
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16:40<Eddi|zuHause>actually, no
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>i added a new constant
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>and set that to 100 ticks
16:40<andythenorth>SpComb: gravel should have had a question mark next to it. The main reason is that IRL cement requires both sand and gravel. I want sand for the Glass Works. So...gravel could be optional.
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>makes for nicer numbers ;)
16:41<Terkhen>I just remembered... does anyone knows how could I force the inlining of these templated functions? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=846432#p846432
16:41<SpComb>well, I'm considering posting a patch for ORIG_DAY_TICKS
16:41<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: did it work ok in terms of actual in-game use?
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: i have seen nothing wrong, but i didn't play much since then
16:42<Terkhen>I want to optimize the unified acceleration code as much as posible... as it stands now I don't think it is usable in games with a lot of vehicles
16:43<Terkhen>well, it is usable, I meant preferable
16:45<SpComb>Terkhen: fractional timetables!
16:45<SpComb>c'mon, all my timetables show up as "0 days" now
16:51-!-fjb [~frank@p5485D97C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:52<andythenorth>Terkhen: how would this industry llist look to you? http://tt-foundry.com/misc/FIRS_basic_proposal_2.png
16:52<andythenorth>Fun or too many?
16:54<Terkhen>SpComb: I'd prefer to get feedback at the projects I still have to finish (which at this point is mostly all of them) before starting new ones... I'll have to learn how timetables work sooner or later, though
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16:55<Terkhen>andythenorth: looking good, enough to be challenging, but not too many
16:56<andythenorth>There would be about 2 or 3 more
16:56<Terkhen>I'm missing a power plant... coal is used at the metal foundry?
16:56-!-PeterT [~PeterT@c-76-19-211-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:57<andythenorth>coal used at steel mill, cement plant. maybe at the fuel depot
16:57<andythenorth>I'm so bored of the mine-> power plant chain
16:58<Terkhen>me too... there is no moneymaker chain then?
16:58<andythenorth>money maker chain is whatever I set highest cargo rate to :)
16:58<sparrL>delivering water at 32km/h there is a payment peak around 100 tiles, then it goes down and comes back up around 420
16:58<sparrL>so delivering between 100 and 420 tiles is not worthwhile
16:58<sparrL>i THINK
16:59<andythenorth>Terkhen: money maker chain in FIRS basic would probably still be coal so it's familiar to players
16:59<andythenorth>Coal -> steel mill (steel) -> machine shop (engineering supplies) -> coal mine (production booster)
16:59<Terkhen>as long as it is not "dump coal here, receive money"... :P
17:00<andythenorth>or coal -> steel mill (steel) -> foundry (goods) -> town
17:00<andythenorth>or one of two other routes to get the other two production boost cargos :)
17:00<+glx>I hope it's simpler than ECS :)
17:00<andythenorth>glx: interesting. Would you be someone who would like FIRS to be 'simple' ? :)
17:01<+glx>not simple but understandable by a normal human :)
17:01<Terkhen>being simpler than ECS doesn't means that it is simple :P
17:01<andythenorth>glx: what's complex about ECS for you?
17:03<+glx>too many complex chains, all depending on each other
17:04<andythenorth>glx: what makes a good chain for you?
17:04<frosch123>andythenorth: pony manual is ready :p
17:04<+glx><andythenorth> or coal -> steel mill (steel) -> foundry (goods) -> town <-- that is a good one
17:05<frosch123>euh, this channel is quite spammy today, isn't it
17:05<+glx>but any chain not needed 2 other chains is good too :)
17:05<sparrL>fjb: can you confirm those numbers?
17:05<andythenorth>glx: coal -> steel mill would produce some steel
17:05<+glx>*needing
17:05<andythenorth>coal + iron -> steel mill produces more steel
17:06<sparrL>just coal produces steel?
17:06<andythenorth>yes
17:06<sparrL>i would think the other way around
17:06<andythenorth>well, it's less fun
17:06<sparrL>just iron produces some, iron+coal produces more
17:06<andythenorth>that would be more realistic. but not as fun in the game
17:07<andythenorth>glx: 100t coal produces 50t steel. 100t iron produces 50t steel. 100t steel + 100t iron produces 150t steel. And there are no stockpile limits....
17:07<fjb>sparrL: I can not confirm anything without more parameters. Which vehicle set, which landscape between both points, which game year?
17:08<frosch123>sounds fine. there would be no steelmill on the map if it has not already some basic supply of steel and coal
17:08<frosch123>the task of the player is to improve the supply
17:08<sparrL>fjb: what effect do those factors have? landscape is somewhat variable, but assume i will build the shortest flattest route possible
17:08<sparrL>vehicle set is eGRTVS i think
17:09<andythenorth>frosch123: "If the host cannot interpret that information (as it is a build without YASP2), it just ignores it and continues."
17:09<andythenorth>would immediately be valuable for something like new airports
17:10<sparrL>for the sake of discussion, assume a completely flat roat with no turns, going straight from the pickup to the drop. so the vehicle is doing its max speed for all but one tile of the distance
17:10<fjb>sparrL: The game calculates Manhattan distance, but some vehicles can go diagonal, others can not. And the landscape has a big influence on the real traveling time.
17:10<frosch123>he, if newairports isn't available earlier :p
17:10<andythenorth>:P
17:11<sparrL>fjb: I am aware of that, but those are factors that are a lot easier to guesstimate once the theoretical perfect case is known
17:11<frosch123>i had ECS and daylength in mind
17:11<fjb>sparrL: And then there are some game parameters like realistic acceleration, breakdowns and congestion on that line.
17:12<+glx>anyway the main problem with ECS is the interdependance between all vectors
17:12<sparrL>fjb: but I am not sure I am doing the math right even in the perfect case. no breakdowns, no decelleration, no congestion.
17:12<fjb>sparrL: Your "perfect case" without that parameters is pretty useless.
17:12<sparrL>"pretty useless" is more useful than not having a solution for ANY case
17:13<sparrL>which is where I am now
17:14<fjb>The main problem with George's ECS is that the map is empty after a few years (at least it was the last time I played with his ECS).
17:14<sparrL>I am not sure that I am doing the vehicle speed (km/h) to effective speed (tiles/day) conversion correctly, or that I am accounting for other conversion factors (2.5 game days per day-in-the-payment-function?) correctly
17:14<sparrL>including other factors like efficiency and congestion is much farther down the line, i have to solve these problems first
17:15<fjb>sparrL: Your mathematics have the value of an untested backup. No backup is way better than en untested because you know you have no backup and do not falsely rely on something which is not working at all.
17:16<sparrL>fjb: the solution to the perfect case sets a boundary on the real cases
17:16<sparrL>i know i can't ever make MORE money than in the perfect case
17:18<andythenorth>frosch123: ideas look good.
17:18<sparrL>"Note: In this page when spoken about 'days', in fact 2.5 days are meant. So if days_in_transit = 4, then you use 4 in the calculations that follow, but actually the cargo is already 10 days in transit. " <-- very confusing
17:18*SpComb wonders if he should start doing MSVC builds himself
17:19<Terkhen>SpComb: prepare to get bored with long compile times
17:20<SpComb>what, you mean VS2008 running in a vbox isn't as fast as native gcc? :(
17:21-!-PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-211-133.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
17:21<Terkhen>actually, I doubt that VS2008 running natively on windows 7 is faster than gcc running in virtual box
17:22*SpComb presses the button on PeterT that does new MSVC builds
17:22<PeterT>SpComb: ERROR: command or variable not found
17:23<sparrL>fjb: right now I have an almost perfect case in game, and it doesn't match up to my calculations, so I think I am doing it wrong
17:23<SpComb>PeterT: have you got your .patch issues figured out?
17:23<PeterT>SpComb: Seriously, I'm not at my MSVC build station
17:23<Terkhen>hmmm... no matter what I try, I can't optimize TrainLocoHandler anywhere beyond 18% slower than trunk... too much cost for the unified code
17:23<PeterT>And yes, I will be able to fix them
17:23<sparrL>"almost perfect case" = road vehicle traveling in a straight line with no terrain, constant speed for all but the first and last tile of the trip
17:23<sparrL>less than one day load and unload times
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17:24<sparrL>fjb: do you think there are significant other factors in that case?
17:26<SpComb>PeterT: also, will you be able to post non-rar packages? :/
17:26<PeterT>No
17:26<PeterT>Rar is the only thing that will fit on tt-forums
17:26<SpComb>didn't you get a new users.tt-forums.net site?
17:26<PeterT>yes
17:26<PeterT>I can do this
17:26<SpComb>I'd even preferr .7z over .rar
17:26<@peter1138>.tar files!
17:26<PeterT>post rar on ttf, then zip on user page
17:26<SpComb>but a [url=foo.zip] would be even better
17:26<fjb>sparrL: That shows that your calculations don't match real life.
17:27<SpComb>post zip on user page, then [url] on ttf?
17:27<PeterT>zip on user page, rar on ttf
17:27<PeterT>but I will only keep the latest build of each
17:27<sparrL>fjb: quite right. sadly, I have found no one who knows how to do the correct calculations
17:27<SpComb>rar and link?
17:27<PeterT>YES
17:27<PeterT>refer to http://users.tt-forums.net/petert/dev
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17:28<Terkhen>you should keep all PDB files, otherwise you won't be able to debug crashes in older builds
17:28<PeterT>I know
17:28<PeterT>I will be doing that
17:28<sparrL>the wiki contradicts itself a little, but I can't get either of the formulae to work
17:28<PeterT>the only thing i'm not keeping is the actual BUILD
17:29<andythenorth>ummm. I don't really like 32bpp graphics, but this could change my mind: http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8926/openttdbadbrettmodtown.jpg
17:29<Terkhen>I think I'm going to park the improved acceleration for rvs patch for a while... trying to optimize already optimized code is too frustrating
17:30<sparrL>andythenorth: i think that level of detail is a matter of the new zoom levels, not 32bpp... you could do similar with 8bpp
17:30<SpComb>andythenorth: surprisingly old, seeing how many people only saw it now (me included...)
17:30<+glx>Terkhen: too bad it's extra zoom level
17:30<andythenorth>Terkhen: don't forget it for ever ;)
17:30<frosch123>andythenorth: i would like to see you playing in that zoomlevel :p
17:31<Terkhen>andythenorth: I will keep updating it, it's just that I don't know how to fix the unified code performance problems
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17:31<andythenorth>frosch123: the weird thing is the 3D guys can produce much more detail than I can in about 10% of the time
17:31<andythenorth>Terkhen: I know, sometimes projects need a break
17:32<+glx><sparrL> andythenorth: i think that level of detail is a matter of the new zoom levels, not 32bpp... you could do similar with 8bpp <-- not doable with the game palette
17:33<Terkhen>my problem with 32bpp graphics is that finding a complete set between a hell of contradictory packages and lost tar files is too frustrating
17:33<+glx>the main problem is finding sets for clean releases :)
17:34<andythenorth>the main problem is that it doesn't feed my nostalgia for 1995 style
17:34<andythenorth>:P
17:34<sparrL>glx: can i find that palette anywhere?
17:34<Terkhen>that too
17:34<+glx>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=PalettesAndCoordinates
17:35<Terkhen>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/docs/ottd-colour-palette.gif
17:36<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/advertise.png <- i have also a link :p
17:36<frosch123>sparrL: did you saw the opengfx faces and the 32bpp originals they were created from?
17:37<sparrL>frosch123: no
17:38<sparrL>glx: of course there would be quality loss, but i don't see why you couldn't get that level of detail with a smaller palette
17:38<sparrL>heck, i think it would be neat to have high-resolution greyscale graphics :) like the early newspaper graphics
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17:40<andythenorth>256 shades of grey? Interesting. Probably the best comment you've made today sparrL
17:40<andythenorth>:P
17:40<andythenorth>(seriously, that does appeal)
17:41<andythenorth>sparrL: could be done with newgrf
17:41<@peter1138>back in the day, games that ran at 640x480 *were* high resolution
17:41<sparrL>not familiar with all the graphics code, 256 might be a stretch, but 16 shades of gray still looks nice
17:41<sparrL>happy medium, say 128 or 192
17:41<@peter1138>you can have 256 greys... easily with 32bpp
17:42<sparrL>well sure
17:43*andythenorth tries desaturating a screen grab....contrast would need some work
17:43<andythenorth>nice idea, not convinced :)
17:43<sparrL>lol
17:43<sparrL>didn't really mean low-res greyscale
17:43<sparrL>it kinda went with my previous "you could have high resolution high detail graphics in 8bpp"
17:44<@peter1138>just zoom that screenshot out to 25%
17:44<@peter1138>you get a feel for normal zoom 32bpp graphics
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17:47*SpComb wonders how to make autosaves more frequent than one month
17:48<SpComb>as the autosave is currently done in OnNewMonth
17:48<@peter1138>move it to OnNewDay and adjust
17:49<SpComb>how do you express "x months" in days? :(
17:49<George>glx: The main feature of ECS is the between-vector dependences are soft. You can producu some amount of cargoes with the simple chain, but adding cargo from other chan increases production. Looks like you missed it
17:50<George>andythenorth: Have a look at PM
17:51<andythenorth>I am replying now
17:51<frosch123>SpComb: use 1/32 months :p
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17:52<andythenorth>George: replied
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17:54<SpComb>frosch123: doesn't really help, since 1/32th of a month isn't something you can trivially determine
17:56<SpComb>perhaps hack it by using negative numbers for days, eh? :)
17:58<frosch123>well, depends what intervals you are heading for. i.e. do you really want to save on 1st jan, 21th jan, 10th feb,... or rather on 1st and 15th independent of month length
17:58<SpComb>well, it'd be nice if the monthly autosave was always on the 1st
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18:06<Bluelight>Is it normal that the server is not in the list until after some time? Actually it's more like it's randomly showed and not..
18:08<sparrL>what causes the rail button to un-grey while all four types of rail are still greyed out?
18:11<andythenorth>good night
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18:16<Terkhen>good night
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18:18<frosch123>he, does opengfx contain rivergraphics in the extra grf? :p
18:19<PeterT>what does this output mean in MSYS?
18:19<PeterT>G src\newgrf_commons.h
18:19<PeterT>occured when using svn up
18:19<PeterT>after reverting a patchfile
18:20<frosch123>then you did not properly revert it
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18:20<frosch123>"G" means local modifications were successfully merged automatically
18:20<frosch123>try "svn status" and "svn diff"
18:20<Bluelight>Is it normal that the server is not in the list until after some time? Actually it's more like it's randomly showed and not..
18:20<__ln>*shown
18:21<Bluelight>Rubidium ?
18:21<frosch123>no idea, the website might quite likely be cached
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18:21*frosch123 wonders how static-safe river graphics really are
18:22<Bluelight>I think the server list is very active..
18:24<sparrL>I think that there are more versions of openttd with active servers/players than almost any other game
18:24<sparrL>a very patch-ly diverse community
18:25*PeterT has cargodist and IS merged
18:25<PeterT>I didn't merge it, though
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18:29<@peter1138>frosch123, very, i'd imagine
18:34<frosch123>yeah, there are no gameplay affecting properties/callbacks or random triggers
18:37<SpComb>PeterT: aparently it isn't a very difficult merge
18:37<PeterT>why?
18:37<PeterT>You've merged it/
18:37<PeterT>I got bigos to merge it for me :-D
18:39<SpComb>no, but I'm about to give it a shot
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18:40<SpComb>looks like a pretty clean patch
18:41<PeterT>Ok
18:41<SpComb>one trivial #include line failed
18:42<PeterT>what rev is this for?
18:43<SpComb>openttd-is2-r18696-14597.p1.diff and cargodist-r18750
18:43<SpComb>compiled fine
18:43<PeterT>can I get a diff of that?
18:43<PeterT>please?
18:43<SpComb>merge it yourself
18:44<SpComb>you have to add one #include to src/economy_func.cpp yourself
18:44<PeterT>what #include file, that's the problem?
18:44<SpComb>make that src/economy.cpp
18:44<SpComb>PeterT: look at the output from patch
18:44<SpComb>i.e. `vim -p src/economy.cpp*`
18:45<SpComb>there's a .rej file with the hunks that failed, you can then merge them into the .cpp yourself
18:45<PeterT>SpComb: Which did you apply first?
18:45<SpComb>I applied it to a cargodist git checkout
18:45<PeterT>oh
18:45<PeterT>I don't have that
18:45<PeterT>I only have cargodist patchfile, is that ok?
18:46<fonsinchen>Rubidium: r18763, the splitting of time_counter - did the previous situation trigger the v->time_counter != 0 assertion in LoadUnloadVehicle in economy.cpp?
18:46<PeterT>SpComb: I can't do that, I don't have a working git
18:47<PeterT>I'll try on Linux, tommorow
18:47<SpComb>PeterT: it should work just the same if you apply the cargodist patch
18:47-!-asilv [~as@h-62-142-160-55.joensuunelli.fi] has quit []
18:48<PeterT>SpComb: But, against what revision?
18:48<PeterT>r18750 (cargodist's patch revision) or IS2's patch revision?
18:49-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd752.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:51<SpComb>r18750
18:51<SpComb>PeterT: you can just fiddle around and see what works, merging patches isn't such a big deal if they're well-written and don't step on eachothers toes too much
18:52<SpComb>how do you open the induvidual settings GUI?
18:53<SpComb>doesn't exist anymore?
18:56<SpComb>oh right, got left out
19:00<PeterT>it was 'too complicated'?
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>[09.01.2010 23:41] <peter1138> back in the day, games that ran at 640x480 *were* high resolution <-- yesterday i read the wikipedia article about "Siedler", and when it said the first PC version had a resolution of 320x200 i couldn't believe it at first...
19:08<SpComb>hmm... seems IS and cargodist work together OK in terms of in-game?
19:08-!-fonsinchen1 [~alve@brln-4dbab09b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
19:08<SpComb>cargo is routed alright between two stations with different owners
19:08<SpComb>but the linkgraph only shows the current company by default
19:09<SpComb>fonsinchen1: do you have an opinion as to cargodist + infrastructure sharing?
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>i always wondered this: how does IS handle transfers between different companies? how does it resolve who gets which payment?
19:09<SpComb>fonsinchen1: seems station cargo is routed just fine when a vehicle has stations from different companies in its orders
19:12<SpComb>http://qmsk.net/~terom/openttd/screenshots/cargodist-IS-example.png
19:13<SpComb>that's with a quick hack for the linkgraph: http://qmsk.net/~terom/openttd/patches/xxx-cargodist-IS-hack.patch
19:14<PeterT>can I get the quick hack for CargoDist and IS?
19:14<SpComb>no, don't distribute it
19:14<PeterT>Why?
19:14<SpComb>cargodist + IS seems to "work" out-of-the-box, the minimap link graph just doesn't show the nodes/links for other companies
19:14-!-fonsinchen [~alve@brln-4dbc1d50.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:14<SpComb>well that assumes all vehicles and stations are trains
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19:20<PeterT>SpComb: I've applied cargodist_r18750.diff
19:20<PeterT>now applying IS2 patch
19:22<fonsinchen1>Cargodist should work fine with IS. It doesn't care about who the stations belong to
19:22-!-fonsinchen1 is now known as fonsinchen
19:23<sparrL>fjb: for airplanes the problem seems a bit simpler, since their distance to be traveled is knowable (and falls between the linear distance and the manhattan distance)
19:23<PeterT>yes, only one Failed!!
19:23<sparrL>fjb: terrain doesn't affect them
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19:24<PeterT>SpComb: Can you explain again how to solve this? http://users.tt-forums.net/petert/dev/cdis_log.txt
19:25<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: empirical evidence suggests: two links (operated by different companies, with one common stations) with a usage ratio of 31:75 make a profit of 6k:37k
19:25<ashb>PeterT: open up src/economy.cpp.rej and src/economy.cpp.orig
19:25<ashb>and maunally copy the changes over
19:25<ashb>it will likely be a small change that stops it working automatically
19:25<PeterT>to what file?
19:25<SpComb>PeterT: yes, that's the same reject that I got, and it's a trivial trivial fix
19:25<ashb>to src/economy.cpp
19:26<PeterT>when opened, will the changes be shown, or will the entire file be shown?
19:26<SpComb>PeterT: i.e. copy the `#include "foo.h"` line as indicated in the .rej to the end of the list of #include's in the .cpp
19:26<SpComb>without the patch's "+" prefix, of course
19:26<PeterT>Ok
19:27<SpComb>PeterT: .cpp is the partially patched file, .orig is the unpatched file, and .rej is a list of hunks that failed
19:27<PeterT>I just opened .ref
19:27<PeterT>*.rej
19:27<PeterT>is there a specific order for the #include's?
19:28<SpComb>usually no
19:28<PeterT>what about now/
19:29<SpComb>PeterT: the issue here is that both of the .patch's that you've applied add a new line to the same place
19:29<SpComb>PeterT: so the only thing you need to determine is the relative order of those two lines - in this case it shouldn't matter, but new lines are generally added to the end
19:30<SpComb>(well, in this case, the trunk version's slightly different, so a line was added there in trunk - doesn't matter)
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19:31<PeterT>thanks, SpComb for all your info
19:31<PeterT>I just made the diff
19:31<PeterT>I noticed you didn't distribute yours, was there a reason?
19:31<PeterT>should I keep mine?
19:32<SpComb>nah, it's my hacky .patch to "fix" the minimap GUI that I don't want to distribute :)
19:32<SpComb>merged patches are perfectly fine to distribute
19:32-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B76747.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
19:32<SpComb>of course, you take responsibility for any merge bugs, then
19:33<PeterT>didn't you link your hack atch to fix it before?
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19:34<SpComb>yes, for curiosity, but it doesn't make any sense to distribute a build with it included :P
19:35<PeterT>oh
19:35<PeterT>I just applied it
19:35<PeterT>so now I have two patches
19:36*SpComb is looking for a better solution atm
19:36<PeterT>:-)
19:36<PeterT>You should make a forum topic for this
19:36<PeterT>skillz
19:36<SpComb>disgress
19:37*PeterT is compiling CargoDist and Infrastructure Sharing
19:37<PeterT>I love you, SpComb
19:37<PeterT>... as a developer
19:39<PeterT>SpComb: You have crash: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=847323#p847323
19:40<SpComb>boo
19:42<SpComb>same one as earlier
19:43<PeterT>then it's just a reminder... fix it
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>didn't rubidium commit some kind of fix earlier?
19:43<SpComb>yeah, someone complained about the same assert in 1.0.0-beta1
19:44<SpComb>but if it happens when placing a PBS-signal, I'm guessing at an increased-daylength related overflow in tick_counter
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19:44<SpComb>well, it hints at...
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>@openttd commit 18764
19:44<fonsinchen>The fix for FS#3499 is not about that assertion. At least it doesn't say so.
19:44<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r18764 /trunk/src (12 files in 2 dirs) (2010-01-09 14:43:08 UTC)
19:44<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Fix [FS#3422]: split the (un)load ticks counter and signal wait counter; sometimes they might get into eachother's way
19:45<fonsinchen>And it's very disturbing that the crash seems to be nondeterministic.
19:45<fonsinchen>If it is, it's also a possible desync
19:45<SpComb>tick_counter was used in so many different ways...
19:45<fonsinchen>Still it should be deterministic
19:45<SpComb>I had assumed it was something with cargodist's modifications to the order handling
19:46<fonsinchen>but at least from Dj Nekkid's save I can't reproduce it.
19:46<fonsinchen>SpComb: maybe, but then it should still be deterministic.
19:47-!-Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds]
19:47<fonsinchen>and michielh's comment suggests that reloading the autosave avoids the crash. This is another hint at the crash being nondeterministic
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: there are different kinds of nondeterminisms
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>one is hitting the exact moment on when to place the signal
19:49<fonsinchen>ah, you're right there. Maybe that's why I can't reproduce DJ Nekkid's problem. He seems to be placing a signal there, too.
19:51<PeterT>SpComb: Want to play with me?
19:51<PeterT>on CDIS?
19:51<fonsinchen>thanks for the hint.
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19:54<PeterT>Why isn't there a way to join an AI's company if you are the server?
19:54<PeterT>not even with "move" or "Join"
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>because that's a cheat
20:00<SpComb>fonsinchen: if it's signal-placing, then I guess it must be the 16-bit tick counter overflowing with a high value for DAY_TICKS
20:00<PeterT><Eddi|zuHause> because that's a cheat <-- But it's not a cheat, you can move companies in multiplayer anyway
20:00<PeterT>it's a cheat in single player?
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20:01<Eddi|zuHause>you can only join human companies in multiplayer, server or not
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20:02<Eddi|zuHause>joining AI companies is only available as a cheat
20:02<PeterT>Ok
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20:08<sparrL>*facepalm*
20:08<sparrL>currency on the wiki is in pounds
20:09<fjb>It's an English game.
20:10<sparrL>yes
20:10<roboboy>and its the default currency if I'm not mistaken
20:11<PeterT>sparrL: the wiki is in British English
20:11<roboboy>cyou
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20:16<SpComb>PeterT: a test game of r18750 + cargodist + is2 + http://qmsk.net/~terom/openttd/patches/cargodist-is2-linkgraph.patch ?
20:17<PeterT>yes
20:17<PeterT>it's "r18750M"
20:17<SpComb>toss in the patch, shall I put up a server?
20:17<PeterT>I'm using one without the patch
20:17<SpComb>ah well, it's network-safe
20:19<SpComb>PeterT: 82.130.16.197
20:19<Sacro>SpComb: that sounds most fun
20:19<PeterT>port?
20:19<SpComb>std
20:20<PeterT>SpComb: Your server isn't visible
20:20<PeterT>not on servers.openttd.org
20:20<SpComb>PeterT: nope
20:20<SpComb>PeterT: add it directly
20:21<SpComb>an oh, it's g63791e23M for me :(
20:21<PeterT>yeah
20:21<PeterT>I know
20:21<PeterT>that's a problem
20:21<PeterT>me and fonso are fixign my git
20:21<SpComb>nothing that can't be fixed
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20:22<SpComb>PeterT: there
20:23<PeterT>SpComb: Please tell me this isn't you: http://www.openttd.org/en/server/24663
20:24<SpComb>no?
20:24<PeterT>Ok
20:24<SpComb>PeterT: click the "Add Server" button and then paste in 82.130.16.197
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20:29<PeterT>@seen Pikka
20:29<@DorpsGek>PeterT: Pikka was last seen in #openttd 16 hours, 53 minutes, and 45 seconds ago: <Pikka> but north america and europe seem to be having a worse time of it
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21:04<sparr>SpComb: I am amazed at the level of source forking where multiple people would have such a widely varied combination of patches compiled at the same time
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21:27<SpComb>sparr: it's easy!
21:27<SpComb>plus, PeterT's company is going bankrupt
21:27<SpComb>well, it just did
21:27<sparr>I wouldn't even know where to get cargodist or is2 as patches (instead of whole trees)
21:28<PeterT>for CargoDist:
21:28<PeterT>http://fickzoo.com/fonsinchen/patches/against_trunk/
21:28<sparr>more importantly, I am amazed that cargodist and is2 "play nice" together, I would expect them to have a LOT of overlap
21:28<SpComb>sparr: the overlap is practically zero
21:28<PeterT>and for IS2 patches:
21:28<PeterT>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/is2/trunk-patches/
21:28<SpComb>sparr: the only issue I've seen so far is that the minimap link graph only displays the stations for your own company
21:29<SpComb>PeterT: well, did you get a screenshot?
21:29<PeterT>Of?
21:29<SpComb>the game :(
21:29<PeterT>me being bankrupt?
21:29<PeterT>yes, of course
21:29<PeterT>that's long done
21:30<PeterT>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&p=847351#p847351
21:30<sparr>what's the svn command to check out a particular revision?
21:31<SpComb>sparr: `svn up -rXXXX`
21:32<sparr>heh
21:34<PeterT>sparr: To checkout a specific revision... "svn co <url> -rXXXXX"
21:34<sparr>cargodist_r18750.diff does not apply cleanly to r18750?
21:34<SpComb>sparr: it does if you apply it correctly
21:34<sparr>I take it "correctly" is not the normal patch < foo.diff ?
21:35<SpComb>`patch -p1` for git-style patches
21:35<SpComb>so, anyone else going to join?
21:35<sparr>I will if I can compile
21:36<SpComb>what platform?
21:36<sparr>linux
21:36<SpComb>then it should be easy
21:36<sparr>i agree
21:37<sparr>but it's not
21:39*sparr checks out a fresh copy AGAIN
21:40<sparr>note to self: make a backup of r18750 to avoid having to download it when the patch doesn't work again
21:41<PeterT>now. imagine that, on Windows
21:41<PeterT>yeah, scary
21:42<PeterT>SpComb: Do you want me to set up a bot that connects in-game to IRC?
21:43<sparr>18696 is the latest IS2 diff?
21:44<sparr>and IS2 r14597
21:44<sparr>sooooo many diffs
21:45<PeterT>IS2 r14597 isn't an SVN revision number, it's a Mercurial rev number
21:45<sparr>right
21:45<PeterT>IS2's mercurial repo
21:45<sparr>the patch is against openttd r18696
21:45<PeterT>yes
21:45-!-lllugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c64e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
21:45<PeterT>but download r18750
21:45<PeterT>apply cargodist
21:45<PeterT>then IS2
21:45<sparr>which IS2?
21:46<PeterT>"openttd-is2-r18696-14597.p1.diff "
21:47<sparr>any advice on resolving the failed hunks?
21:49<sparr>just copied the #include to one line later
21:50<sparr>heh, configure doesn't like my path containing +s
21:50<SpComb>PeterT: nah
21:50<PeterT>sparr: that's about it
21:51<SpComb>mercurial's rev numbers shouldn't be used like that
21:51<SpComb>it should be "openttd-is2-r<trunk>-<hg hash>.diff"
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21:57<sparr>SpComb: I have a version mismatch with your server
21:57<sparr>likely because configure complained that I was not using an svn version
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21:58<sparr>there, now I am using r18750M
22:00<PeterT>good
22:04<PeterT>SpComb, sparr: Join #cdis
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22:50<Pikka>Singaporekid no
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23:16<PeterT>I cannot beleive that IS and CargoDist is THIS fun...
23:27*SpComb has 500k£!
23:32*PeterT has $99k!
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23:35-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:a1ac:20d4:cabe:3141] has quit [Quit: bye]
23:45<SpComb>of which half is from me as an interest-free loan that you'll never pay back!
23:45<PeterT>:-)
23:45<PeterT>how much did you give me?
23:45<PeterT>I'll pay back now?
23:45<SpComb>dunno, probably almost 100k
23:46<PeterT>I left
---Logclosed Sun Jan 10 00:00:39 2010