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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-01-12

---Logopened Tue Jan 12 00:00:56 2010
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00:46<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: possibly, especially if the reboot isn't a nice one
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01:38<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: and today you have the chance to watch Chuck before midnight again :)
01:47<Bluelight>Greetings Rubidium.. You are always with us it seems..
01:47<Bluelight>I just woke up!
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02:30<Terkhen>good morning
02:31<Markmc>Mornin' on youm sir.
02:34<sparr>boredom has interesting side effects...
02:36<Bluelight>He he..
02:37<SirSquidness>sparr: that's awesome ^_^
02:38<Bluelight>How do I restart the server in the dedicated server window?
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02:57<Terkhen>hi roboboy
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03:37<@peter1138>Bluelight, "newgame" or something
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03:47<roboboy>whats the difference between a .diff and a .patch?
03:48<@Rubidium>the extension
03:53<SpComb>roboboy: semantic imo
03:53<SpComb>but not well defined
03:54<roboboy>bleh it seems TortoiseSVN is hopeless at mergeing a patch onto a patched copy of trunk. It doesnt show me the normal dialog asking which files to patch
03:54<roboboy>I thought id try mergeing IS and Timetable seperation just to try
03:54<SpComb>nicest to use, say, git
03:55<SpComb>checkout the version of trunk the patch is based on, patch it in, and then try and merge with the trunk branch
03:55<roboboy>IS patched cleanly
03:56<roboboy>but the second patch didn't give me the same interface
03:56<SpComb>I'm not sure how much faith I'd have in tortoise's patch GUI
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03:59<roboboy>maybe I should install cmd svn win32
04:01<SpComb>or use the command-line patch
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04:54<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18790 /trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp: -Revert (r18001,r18177,FS#3515): Viewport could still jump under high CPU load. Revert as change caused more problems than it fixed.
05:04<SpComb>hmm. I wonder if that effects me
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05:17<dihedral> <- hehehe
05:18<SpComb>"If you downloaded from another location, it means that either the file didn't came from us or that it got broken during transport. Either way it might possibly contain dangerous modifications and the file should therefor not be trusted"
05:19<SpComb>I was looking at the .patch the other day
05:20<@Rubidium>interesting... if you're downloading it from there you can be sure it didn't get broken during transport?
05:21<dihedral>and it's not modified :-D
05:21<SpComb>apparently, nor does it contain any dangerous modifcations and can be trusted
05:21<dihedral>but at least "If your new openttd.exe crashes, do not submit the bug report to, sent them to us!"
05:22<@Rubidium>and it's infringing on the license
05:22<SpComb>well, there's a .diff
05:22<SpComb>and as to the "Please do not ..." bits, you're always free to ask nicely
05:22<dihedral>hehe - true, it is Rubidium
05:22<dihedral>did not even look at that when i looked at the packages
05:23<@Rubidium>SpComb: there are other ways to infringe on the license besides not giving the source
05:23<@Rubidium>like... not giving the license
05:23<SpComb>well, that's minor
05:23<SpComb>no COPYING in the .zip?
05:24<@Rubidium>SpComb: yes, no COPYING in the zip
05:24<@Rubidium>the zip is 0.7 MiB smaller than the one released on OpenTTD
05:24<SpComb>could be considered an unimportant detail...
05:25<Ammler>notice the "C"
05:25<SpComb>lack of a proper bundle isn't
05:25<Ammler>it _is_ modifed, afaik, something scenario mod
05:25<SpComb>but an ugly 648 line diff
05:26<Terkhen>(Only for self-compiling) <-- this means I can't alter the source?
05:26<SpComb>no, it just changes MoveGoodsToStation
05:26<SpComb>(and station ratings)
05:26<dihedral>hehe - none of their servers use that version :-D
05:26<roboboy>couldnt you apply the patch and then view the patched source?
05:27<dihedral>roboboy, no way - you may not do that with patches!!
05:28<Ammler>* Instead of 2, now 4 stations can claim goods from an industry <-- sounds reasonable
05:28<Terkhen>I'm no expert at the GPL, but I thought the whole point was "open source"
05:29<Ammler>Terkhen: maybe they mean't not for patching the binary
05:31<@Rubidium>Ammler: but why 4?
05:31<Ammler>well, more
05:32<@Rubidium>it's just changing an arbitrary number to be slightly more when it's probably trivial to totally remove the limit
05:32<Ammler>I am not that a competitive player to juge it proper ;-)
05:32<Terkhen>"All the files in the download section are protected by the: GNU General Public License Version 2, June 1991. Which can be read here. Please do not distribute this patch on your website. Please do not create your own openttd server with this patch." <-- you can limit distribution and use of open source code?
05:32*Terkhen should read the GPL completely some day
05:33<Ammler>Terkhen: they do not need to publish the server source
05:33<dihedral>they cannot do that limit ;-)
05:33<@Rubidium>Ammler: but... you need the same patch at the client
05:33<dihedral>it's GPL, you can basically do what you want
05:34<@Rubidium>dihedral: oh... then you should read the mail I'm writing to Apple :)
05:34<Terkhen>I know, I meant for the provided source
05:34<Ammler>Rubidium: he, they might have some "goal" hacks on the server
05:35<dihedral>Rubidium, i'd love to :-)
05:35*roboboy might as well
05:35<@peter1138>he can't spell algorithm
05:35<@peter1138>"algorhitm" indeed
05:35<dihedral>Ammler, that 0.7.5C patch is not what they are running on their server ;-)
05:35<ss23>Hence, algo
05:35<ss23>Then people just think you're lazy instead of stupid :P
05:36<Ammler>dihedral: yes.
05:37<roboboy>well I wont trus their sources or binaries since they are not from TT-F or
05:37<Ammler>maybe they should tag the version a bit more verbose than just a C
05:37<dihedral>roboboy, you trust any binary on tt-forums?
05:37<SpComb>Terkhen: no, you can't limit distribution or use of GPL code, but that doesn't stop anyone from asking politely - which doesn't legally stop anyone from doing something else with it
05:37*dihedral feels like starting a 0.7.5C server :-D
05:38<Terkhen>float tt1 = ( (float)totalamount * ((float)((float)highest_rating / 257) * ((float)(((float)best_rating1 / 257) + (float)winner_bonus) / (float)((((float)sum_all_ratings / 256)) + (float)factor))));
05:38<@peter1138>let's do it :D
05:38<roboboy>not every binary but the ones created by trusted community members
05:38<@peter1138>Terkhen, ...
05:38<Terkhen>that line catched my attention :)
05:38<dihedral>peter1138, and name it lucky luke land server :-D
05:39<dihedral>Terkhen, one way to remove compiler warnings :-D
05:39<roboboy>I might join it
05:39*roboboy downloads their binry and gives it a good scan with his av
05:40<SpComb>roboboy: if the binary differs from the patched source, it violates the GPL anyways
05:40*SpComb has better things to do than fool around with it, though
05:40<SpComb>such as reading The Daily WTF!
05:40<dihedral>you mean the compiled patched source?
05:40<SpComb>although my, are the WTFs shoddy these days
05:40<roboboy>I would have geused that
05:41<roboboy>their server is sloow
05:42<dihedral>my marmite jar is empty :-(
05:42<dihedral>roboboy, you are surprised?? they have a heavily heavily patched game
05:43<dihedral>probably checking every tick for some crap
05:43<roboboy>IE can not tell me how long the download of their binary is taking
05:44*roboboy cancels the download
05:47<Terkhen>what does the C in 0.7.5C means? competition?
05:47<Terkhen>cock competition?
05:47<ashb>roboboy: what are you using IE for?
05:47<dihedral>that would be cc
05:47<dihedral>talking of "algoryhitm"....
05:48<roboboy>IE8 is pretty decent for what I need
05:48<dihedral>was not luukland the guy banning players because they could not spell his name right?
05:49<roboboy>I think it was this thread
05:52<dihedral> <- read 1 January :-)
05:53<dihedral>"The Goulp Pro Dev Team whiches you a happy new year..."
05:53<SpComb>you don't have to play there if you don't like it
05:54<dihedral>i have not played in a long time anyway
05:54<SpComb>(nor do you have to play on, say, the ottdc public server if you think the game style is silly)
05:54<dihedral>i feel forced to play on .... servers
06:03<SpComb>hrmph, is still broken, can't oogle peter1138's server
06:05<SpComb>well, yes
06:06<SpComb>server details don't work
06:18<@Rubidium>it does work :)
06:18<@Rubidium>only the newgrf information might be screwed for the next 15 or so minutes
06:20<roboboy>it all seems to work for me
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i'm not entirely sure the midnight thing is going to work out, since there's also heroes and fringe...
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06:30<Timmaexx>For Sidux, which OpenTtD Version should I take?
06:31<blathijs>What's Sidux?
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06:32<Eddi|zuHause>if in doubt, compile yourself.
06:33<@peter1138>erm, what
06:33<@peter1138>"[UNIV]Thomas the tank engine set"
06:33<@peter1138>poll: "What sort of stats would you like to see, realistic or game?"
06:33<@peter1138>thomas the tank engine... realistic... what?
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>hahaha :p
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06:34<SirSquidness>peter1138: Thomas the Tank Engine set?! Where?
06:34<roboboy>we were thinking about using their real life counterparts stats
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: in my head i suddenly have discussions a la "who would win in a fight between superman and batman"
06:35<roboboy>the set does not exists as a GRF yet
06:36<dihedral>Timmaexx, are you really asking about the openttd VERSION?
06:36<Ammler>Timmaexx: looks like linux-generic like ubuntu
06:37<Timmaexx>dont know if i should take generic or lenny
06:37<Ammler>hmm, why not just try?
06:37<@Rubidium>if you don't use debian-lenny... use the generic one
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07:01<dihedral>Rubidium, there you can make your own screeny
07:02<@Rubidium>but tiff and german are soo much better :)
07:03*dihedral slaps roboboy
07:03<SpComb>silly, just one commit
07:06<rane>openttd is probably the last game I'd play on my iPhone :p
07:06<Bluelight>Is it possible to load a game with the dedicated thingy?
07:06<roboboy>try openttd -h
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>Bluelight: yes.
07:06<dihedral>rane, trains roll faster if you tilt the iphone :-
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: and if you shake it too hard, they derail? :p
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>cool idea for a disaster ;)
07:07<roboboy>and the seas get too rough to sail?
07:07<roboboy>and aircraft fall out the sky?
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: you have seen too many bad movies
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: why would planes care about an earthquake?
07:08<dihedral>and the tiles start flying away :-D
07:09<Bluelight>Eddi|zuHause: How do I do that?
07:10<dihedral>openttd -h
07:10<dihedral>openttd.exe -h
07:10<dihedral>or read the wiki
07:11<roboboy>if the land is no longer below the aircraft they would fall
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: ah, so that's how it works :p
07:12<ss23>Don't they work on air rather than land
07:12<ss23>So it might cause them to drop a little because of decreased air pressure, but not a complete drop
07:13<SirSquidness>I'd buy a new phone with accelerometers in it just so I could play openttd and derail my trains by shaking too hard.
07:13<ss23>Lol SirSquidness
07:13<roboboy>and if you tilt it up-die-down the land would fall on the aircraft
07:14<Bluelight>Where in the wiki can I find out how to load a game on a dedicated server? :p
07:14<roboboy>maybe if you shake it one way all trains going that direction speed up and all going the oposite way slow down?
07:14<rane>Bluelight: just use the help in the client?
07:14<rane>openttd --help
07:15<dihedral>Bluelight, guess what exists in the wiki!
07:15<dihedral>a search function
07:15<dihedral>it's that little white field on the left hand side where you can type stuff into
07:16<dihedral>and there is a button, you can click on, and then it will try to find what you entered!
07:16<dihedral>sorry - being bitchy
07:17<dihedral> <- HEHE
07:17<dihedral>so much for version 1.0.0
07:21*roboboy wonders how an mp game using Megarial would go down
07:22<roboboy>could be interesting with IS enabled
07:22<KenjiE20>hehe MegaRail I had so many save based off that 'back in the day'
07:23<KenjiE20>still do, somewhere
07:23*sparr googles
07:23<KenjiE20>Was a scenario in TTDLX
07:23<roboboy>It was my favourite game apart from the scotland one with the pre-setup ais
07:23<KenjiE20>yea, both of those were fun
07:23<roboboy>it had a network already setup
07:23<KenjiE20>I found a bug in TTDLX on the scotland one
07:24*roboboy should load scotland up and then cheat to buy all the ais up and load UKRS
07:24<KenjiE20>If you place a station in the same direction above a tunnel the signal blocks join :P
07:25<roboboy>ive heard about that a few times
07:25<roboboy>wouldn't be a [roblem with PBS
07:25<KenjiE20>wouldn't be a problem in OTTD
07:25<roboboy>nor TTDPatch I would think
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07:26<roboboy>if I could id configure our router and start a Megarail server
07:27<roboboy>or even a scotland scenario
07:27<sparr>i recall being able to "break" a station by putting a depot directly behind it
07:27<sparr>in TTDLX
07:27*roboboy wishes OpenTTD could create scenarios like Scotland and Megarail
07:27<sparr>roboboy: we need much better AIs before good scenarios really work, i think
07:28<Timmaexx>Well some AI's are pretty good
07:30<sparr>random feature idea... I'd like to be able to have one-use AIs that players can run mid-game. "build rail from A to B", and let it find the optimal route
07:30<Timmaexx>NoCAb and AdmiralAI
07:31<sparr>I'll give those a try
07:31<sparr>I've only played against a handful of the AIs, too many of them error out
07:31<sparr>and I don't find out the AI is broken until 45 minutes into the game :(
07:33<Eoin>if you do a scotland game
07:33<Eoin>id just have to play
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07:34<sparr>playing with toy magnets is absorbing most of my attention right now
07:35<@peter1138>s/toy/modelling/ clearly :)
07:36<sparr>one man's toy :)
07:37<Xaroth>wonder if they sell those in holland :o
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07:42<sparr>Xaroth: probably, you're close to China than I am :)
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07:44<ss23_>sillly router
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07:44<ss23_>"Oh, I see you've changed DNS, I should reconnect to the interwebs for that right? :D"
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07:46<sparr>I'm trying to think of more interesting configurations for the magnets
07:46<sparr>i had assumed that spherical magnets would be similar to bar magnets + metal spheres... they are very different
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07:57<Xaroth>Coco-Banana-Man: your quit message is -so- Ice age 3 :P
07:59<Coco-Banana-Man>yeah ^^
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08:03<Luukland>Rubidium? You had some problems?
08:04<Luukland>Please enter private chat...
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08:06<@peter1138>ça va?
08:06<bartavelle>pas mal
08:07<planetmaker>ça va.
08:07<bartavelle>/amsg ...
08:07<murr4y>sacre bleu
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08:21<roboboy>for the title game is servicing enabled?
08:22<Luukland>Hmmm no Rubidium here, if you read this Rubidium, find me plz
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08:26<planetmaker>no patience at all
08:29<planetmaker>and not talking to the point either.
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08:39<@peter1138>sounded a bit demanding
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08:41*Rubidium wonders what's so funny
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08:50<roboboy>for the title game is servicing enabled?
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08:52<roboboy>Im trying to build a title game but my trucks keep clogging up a truck station
08:52<@Rubidium>don't know; the current title game just forces servicing
08:52<roboboy>im hoping servicing might keep it in check
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08:54<@Rubidium>you can use timetables
08:55<@Rubidium>also IIRC breakdowns are disabled in the title game
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09:28<Timmaexx>where are you from?
09:28<Timmaexx>we have midday
09:28<planetmaker>rather mid afternoon ;-)
09:29<Timmaexx>well for me is 15 o clock midday ;)
09:30<Goulp>he's from oz
09:30<planetmaker>Timmaexx, use /whois on him and you'll see his country code
09:31<planetmaker>of course that might be misleading
09:31<@peter1138>yeah, i'm from the .org country
09:31<planetmaker>but what Goulp sais
09:31<planetmaker>peter1138, sure ;-)
09:31<planetmaker>org like orgy or organ or... whatever ;-)
09:32<@peter1138>organ :D
09:32<dihedral>lol @ peter
09:32<@peter1138>i like my organ
09:32<planetmaker>yup, sounds nice :-)
09:32<planetmaker>dihedral, music!
09:32<planetmaker>not whatever you think now again ;-)
09:32<dihedral>ah! :-D
09:33<dihedral> <- :-P
09:34<planetmaker>hehe. Brainz can only be compensated by brainz ;-)
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09:35<roboboy>I am aussie and goodnight
09:35<dihedral>german or english aussie :-P
09:35<roboboy>english born in aus
09:36<Goulp>down under...
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09:41<@peter1138>chromium download is 800+MB
09:41<@peter1138>thought it was meant to be small :s
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09:48<@peter1138>no, the browser source
09:57<__ln>afaik they bundle all the libraries and crap they need with the source code
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10:15<fonsinchen>Is AI in multiplayer still considered experimental?
10:16<planetmaker>was never. Why?
10:17<fonsinchen>I have a case where someone set up a multiplayer game with dummy AI and gets crashes because for some company c->is_ai == true while c->ai_instance == null
10:17<fonsinchen>Now I'm wondering how that came to be.
10:18<fonsinchen>(this is with cargodist, so I can't tell with 100% certainty that it also happens in trunk)
10:18<@peter1138>planetmaker, it was... at least with the old/old-new ai :)
10:19<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: might it be related to FS#3445?
10:21<fonsinchen>it's the exact same backtrace
10:22<fonsinchen>line 314 in ai_instance.cpp from line 75 in ai_core.cpp
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10:24<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: this is with the dummy AI at the server, right?
10:26<fonsinchen>At least it complains about dummy AI missing when I load an earlier autosave and the user has stated that he "forgot to switch off AI".
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10:26<@Rubidium>doesn't crash for me with the dummy AI
10:26<@Rubidium>though that's with head
10:27<fonsinchen>You have to set up a multiplayer game and do something with it to trigger the problem.
10:27<fonsinchen>It's not crashing all the time.
10:27<Yexo>is the server or a client crashing?
10:29<fonsinchen>I guess it's the server, but I don't quite know.
10:29<fonsinchen>Can I find out from a savegame if it was saved by the server or a client?
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10:30<Yexo>if it has any AI data in the savegame it must be saved by the server
10:31<Yexo>but a savegame from the server is not guaranteed to have AI data (with dummy AI, or if an AI crashed, or didn't save anything)
10:31<fonsinchen>Well, the crash.sav is missing. However, I have an earlier autosave and it wants to load dummy AI.
10:31<Yexo>that doesn't say anything, either the server or the client could've saved that
10:33<fonsinchen>Does it create a crash.png if a dedicated server crashes?
10:34<fonsinchen>The exact phrase in the post is "I got a crash while building a airport on a multiplayer game (2 Humans). We're using r18708 with dedicated server via Internet." and I got a crash.png.
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11:10<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: that is fairly unlikely ;)
11:10<fonsinchen>what is unlikely?
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11:11<@peter1138>15:33 < fonsinchen> Does it create a crash.png if a dedicated server crashes?
11:11<@peter1138>15:33 < fonsinchen> Does it create a crash.png if a dedicated server crashes?
11:11<@peter1138>but once, not twice :d
11:11<fonsinchen>then it's probably a client crashing.
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11:20<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: it's more likely that the person meant a crash.dmp but has a problem distinguishing file extensions
11:24<fonsinchen>no, I have a valid crash.png and a valid crash.dmp
11:25<fonsinchen>You can dowload it here:
11:25<fonsinchen>and this is the same problem:
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11:30<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: that doesn't look very helpful at all :p
11:30<fonsinchen>What is wrong?
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>... don't mind me ;)
11:39<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18791 /trunk/src/blitter/32bpp_anim.cpp: -Fix [FS#3504]: when copying an 'image' back into the buffer the 32bpp anim blitter triggered palette check of the whole window instead of only the part the got copied back
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12:04<Noldo>What do the nforenum data files contain?
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12:13<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo: metadata about the nfo semantics, i presume
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. allowed values for certain actions
12:14<__ln>would i regret if i went to watch roland emmerich's 2012?
12:16<@Belugas>ho... a living dihedral
12:16<@Belugas>hello sir
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12:33<dihedral>hey ho Belugas :-)
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12:56<dihedral>@seen TrueBrain
12:56<@DorpsGek>dihedral: I have not seen TrueBrain.
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12:57-!-_inf3ct is "(unknown)" on (unknown)
13:01<@Belugas>how's life mister dihedral?
13:03<dihedral>not bad...
13:03<dihedral>a bit bored, and looking for a job :-D
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13:07<Roelmb>can anyone explain me line 2475 of train_cmd.cpp there is standing default: NOT_REACHED(); its in the first part of the "perform pathfinding for a train"
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13:08<@Rubidium>what part of that is there not to understand?
13:08<@Rubidium>the default part or the not reached part?
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>Roelmb: "NOT_REACHED" means "this can never happen, because it must be one of the other cases"
13:10<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18792 /trunk/src/video/dedicated_v.cpp: -Fix [FS#3522] (r18709): crash when using the 32bpp blitter with a dedicated server
13:10<dihedral>why would a dedicated server use a 32bpp blitter?
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13:11<@Rubidium>so you can make 32bpp screenshots ofcourse!
13:11<Roelmb>I don't get the not reached part because the server crashed at that point
13:11<dihedral>does a dedicated not use a null driver?
13:11<dihedral>was not making screenshots removed a long time ago?
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>Roelmb: if it crashes at that point, it means "someone made a serious mistake"
13:12<Roelmb>its Cargo destination patched on r18750 any clue why that would crash
13:13<@Rubidium>dihedral: there is a default and there is what you can configure
13:13<Roelmb>and its IS2 patched over it (without any problem it worked fine)
13:13<dihedral>patched != supported ;-)
13:14<dihedral>if you can reproduce that on a nightly build, then it's interesting
13:14<Roelmb>i'll send you link of patch here you can find the patch and the binary's
13:14<dihedral>else turn to the developers of those patches
13:15<Roelmb>alright i'll ask them
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13:15<Roelmb>but can you just explain where the not reached is standing for don't get the meaning of that
13:15<@Rubidium>something is seriously messing with the newlines in your repository
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13:16<Roelmb>rubidium:how you mean
13:16<@Rubidium>not reached means that the developer is quite very sure that it is not to be reached; if it does, a crash is generated
13:16<Roelmb>Ah like that get it now
13:16<@Rubidium>Roelmb: I doubt you uhm... have modified the debian installer translation files
13:16<dihedral>i.e. if (false) NOT_REACHED();
13:17<@Rubidium>or that you have modified the logos
13:17<Roelmb>i didn't change any installer files that I know
13:18<@Rubidium>well, they show up in the diff. Most likely due to newline differences \r\n vs \n
13:18<Roelmb>I just patched it with SVN and GIT and then build it and bundeld it
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13:20<@Rubidium>anyhow, the diff it way too big to see the cause of the problems at a glance
13:20<Roelmb>hmm the part of the debian config files is part of CargoDestination should i ask there for help
13:21<Roelmb>and how hard i try i can't rebuild the crash
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13:22<@Rubidium>then run some tests on your computer's hardware (memtest, mersenne prime test)
13:23<Roelmb>it wasn't on my computer that it crashed so it would be hard to test that
13:23<@Rubidium>then run it on the computer that had the crash
13:24<Roelmb>should ask the host then i'll first look at the code maybe it didn't patch everything correctly
13:25<Roelmb>and rubidium where did you learn coding (and how the heck do you understand anything of the structure of the code. I'm still looking at it like where is the beginning XD)
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13:27<@Rubidium>at home... but I reckon that's not what you were asking for
13:27<dihedral>lol, that is a cute question :-D
13:28<Roelmb>hehe at home XD but how I tried the internet and it goes a little but can't find anything that is really good to learn from
13:29<sawtooth>of course there is a chance that any program Rubidium touches turns into some transport game
13:29<@Rubidium>I started with Logo
13:29<sawtooth>logo is a programming language
13:30<sawtooth>of sorts
13:30<@Rubidium>sawtooth: nah, the Linux kernel (how small and insignificant my contribution might have been) is not a transport game yet
13:31<@Rubidium>Roelmb: what's more fun than when you're like 8 to have a turtle walk over your screen drawing stuff for which you wrote the instructions?
13:31<Roelmb>I started with programming basic on my graphical calculator
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13:31<Eddi|zuHause>i started with dbase
13:31<nicfer>What's the most minimalist industry/cargo replacement newgrf?
13:32<Roelmb>rubidium: 8 your crazy i'm 17 and only can write the basics of c++
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>i was like 10 or so
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>when i started to program
13:33<@Rubidium>then at 10 or so with Visual Basic messing about
13:33<Terkhen>I started with a ZX Spectrum, copying code examples from a book and then changing lines to see what happened, I was like 8 too
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>qbasic... with the gorilla game ;)
13:33<@Rubidium>12 or so I started with dBase 4 IIRC (they're back at 2.5 nowadays)
13:34<sawtooth>had a vic20 my uncle gave me so a bit of basic somewhat early for me
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>i had a dbase 3 clone called foxbase
13:34<Terkhen>I fried it doing my first "hardware" experiments, though
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>and a book telling you how to build an accounting software
13:34<@Rubidium>14-15-ish with C/C++, 17 with Java (C++ makes Java so easy)
13:35<Roelmb>what parents do you guys have i'm still trying to explain mine what programming is XD
13:35<nicfer>I made my first program at 12 or near
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>in school i learned about pascal then, that was in 5th or 6th grade
13:35<@Rubidium>Roelmb: one of them did do programming of sorts (guess what language)
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>and then i had a "learning c++" book, but i didn't get along with it...
13:36<@Rubidium>at 19 or so I had a collision with C#
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>they programmed an elevator simulation there, but i couldn't figure out how to modify that to my advantage
13:36<Roelmb>I study chemics so no informatics for me :( and if i didn't get something i need to look it up I speak english well but my dutch is much beter
13:36<@Rubidium>and did some Prolog, Haskell and Amanda (also functional programming)
13:36<Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: Deitel? I learned C++ with it
13:36<@Rubidium>hmm, at 18 I did some VHDL too
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: it's in german, i doubt you had that same one
13:37<@Rubidium>and three years ago I had a collision with Python; an especially bad one
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13:37<Roelmb>damn you guys are really good and I cab't get anything out of it without doing it like 10 times
13:37<ashb>do it lots
13:37<ashb>thats how you get better at things :)
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13:38<dihedral>you want to know 'how many times' they looked at that stuff Roelmb
13:38<@Rubidium>ah well, then I'm even forgetting stuff like sh, awk, sed, php, javascript, vbscript, ...
13:38<Roelmb>i'm a way behind i see
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>Roelmb: really, when you have played around with it for 20 years, you start to get the hang of a few things
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>it's like you talk to a professional piano player "i tried hitting the keys ten times, and i can't play as good as you..."
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>well... duh!
13:39<Roelmb>i'm good at basics on my calculator but thats really nothing
13:39<sawtooth>i've been playing piano for a few years now! (Started at 29)
13:39<Roelmb>and fine for you I'm a pianist spend 9 years learning it now
13:40<@Rubidium>and the eleventyth time I used a sledgehammer... didn't quite work either
13:40<Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: mine had an elevator simulation as an example too, that's why I asked :P
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: it says "authorised translation of the engish original from SAMS, (c) by Tom Swan"
13:42<Terkhen>not the same book then
13:43<Roelmb>I think we are like spaming this IRC channel XD
13:43<Terkhen>this bring me memories, I still have my old GW-BASIC manual somewhere
13:44<Roelmb>XD if someone knows a good c or c++ guide give it
13:44<Terkhen>found it
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: i think i was too young to understand the book back then
13:45<Terkhen>my GW-BASIC manual
13:45<Roelmb>hehe funny
13:45<Terkhen>I couldn't understand it either, but I still read it
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r18793 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt german.txt russian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: dutch - 69 changes by Hirundo
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<Roelmb>he what now again
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i should just read it again, now that i have learned the concepts ;)
13:46<Terkhen>you should, I'm checking some pages at random, it's funny to see the same strange words now that I can understand them
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13:49<dihedral>oh - gw basic was fun :-P
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: likely i'd get bored quickly because it's not moving fast enough
13:49<Roelmb>XD lol
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>telling me lots of things that i already know
13:49<Terkhen>yes, I already got bored of it :P
13:50<Terkhen>it is fun to remember anyways
13:50<dihedral>you just want the reference manual ;-)
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i was fairly comfortable in pascal then
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>i could program better than my teacher
13:51<Roelmb>like me in BASIC XD
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>he asked for a program in an exam that could split lines at word borders for given line width
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>and he used my version instead of his (worse) reference implementation
13:52<Roelmb>hahaha what a teacher
13:52<Terkhen>I had to learn on my own: I did not had any programming courses until the last year of high school
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>mine was much shorter and better structured ;)
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>Roelmb: he was a really good teacher
13:52<Roelmb>I am learning everything the hard way. Trying and trying I learnd basic without having guidelines XD
13:53<Roelmb>and now it seems that it isn't working with c++ XD
13:56<Terkhen>Roelmb: google for a c++ tutorial, it should help you getting started
13:56<Terkhen>(if it is a good one)
13:58<@Rubidium>Roelmb: ?
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>Roelmb: c++ really isn't a good language for beginners, because it has a lot of pitfalls
13:58<@Rubidium>true, better start with understanding C with it's pointers and whatnot :)
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>Roelmb: i suggest you learn an easy language like pascal or python, and then visit some lectures on the more abstract theoretical programming constructs
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>if they're good lectures they force you to program in at least half a dozen completely different languages
14:00<Roelmb>I'm more theoratical then easy XD
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14:01<Eddi|zuHause>once you have that basic knowledge, you can start learning C++ "the right way"
14:01<Roelmb>i like difficult things
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>takes about 5 years
14:02<Roelmb>damn don't like long term projects
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14:04<dihedral>Roelmb, with that attitude you'll get a job anywhere!!
14:07<Roelmb>? isn't it the other way
14:07<dihedral>ah - you do not detect sarcasm ;-)
14:08<Roelmb>not from this distance XD
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>not uncommon considering that people who are good at programming or maths are often borderline autistic
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14:09<Roelmb>euhm I'm not autistic XD
14:09<Terkhen>Roelmb: don't get discouraged, start small, keep learning a bit everyday... if you like it, everything will start making sense at some point
14:10<dihedral>never give up :-)
14:10<dihedral>especially not when some bloke whams out some sarcastic comments :-P
14:11<sawtooth>never surrender!
14:12*Terkhen got scared when he began to understand Action 0 just by looking at the ugly hex numbers
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>sawtooth: is that from galaxy quest?
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>that's funny in context of discussing sarcasm :p
14:14<dihedral>oh no - galaxy quest, you are right
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>well, i have to ask that because i have only seen the german translation...
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>which might or might not have translated these things word by word
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14:21<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: current estimate on chuck is 4h 16m
14:22<@Rubidium>has the pigeon a head wind or so?
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>current speed is 9.4
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>which is about the same as yesterday
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>but lower than the 12.5 of heroes
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14:33<andythenorth>is using Wine for OS X support so bad? I don't see the issue myself. Apart from some sucky filesystem stuff.
14:33<andythenorth>(in respect of OpenTTD for OS X)
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you know a way to make osx people install wine?
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>i never heard anybody saying it wouldn't work
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14:35<andythenorth>no, but I had to buy Crossover (wine, nicely packaged) to run renum (last year, before OS X binaries). So I guess my view differs from the average OS X user
14:35<andythenorth>Thinking back to when I started playing OpenTTD again, if it had required wine, I wouldn't have bothered
14:35<andythenorth>I didn't even use newgrf for the first year, it looked like too much hassle
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>oooh my first steps with newgrfs... i was so naive...
14:37<andythenorth>I only started using them when the newgrf gui was made available
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14:37<Eddi|zuHause>i remember joining here and asking "i can't get elrail.grf to work"
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>and someone said "hey, that's gonna keep the channel busy for a while" :p
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>that was one of my first impressions of this channel
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14:57<__ln>21:33 < andythenorth> is using Wine for OS X support so bad? <-- i don't think Wine is available for PPC.
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15:12<Terkhen>hmmm... I messed up my mercurial repository
15:12<Terkhen>I have fixed it, but my log now is only corrections
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15:22<@Belugas>nice airport
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15:23<sparr>Bluelight: part of a botnet
15:23<sparr>likely infected with a virus or trojan
15:24<sparr>can anyone recommend an actively admin'd server? I like Jonty's server, dislike servers where random idiots can ruin the game for everyone.
15:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you made a suggestion about grids for the images on FIRS website?
15:24<Bluelight>Luukland is good..
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, the images should contain the landscape grid
15:25<Bluelight>I sometimes got an server, but I dunno how to kick people,lol..
15:25<sparr>Bluelight: 0.7.5? :(
15:25*sparr installs
15:25<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so you can judge size?
15:25<Bluelight>Yeah 0.7.5
15:25<Luukland>Yeap, Luukland is good, loads of people, but stupid admins
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>yes, e.g. it is difficult to see if something is 6x7 or 5x6 or so...
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>so the surrounding (non-industry) tile should be hinted by the landscape grid
15:27<sparr>Bluelight: that means I have to go "find" the old art/sound files :(
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you understand what i mean?
15:27<andythenorth>I might create a graphic of gridlines sized for tiles, or something. we'll see
15:28<Bluelight>I just wish the internet games got a more stable connection, I'm often lost with connection problems..
15:28<andythenorth>industry layouts vary any :)
15:28<andythenorth>way /s
15:28<sparr>Bluelight: I find that happens mostly when I try to do things while the game is paused
15:28<Bluelight>I do nothing, but my buddy disconnects if he watches Youtube
15:29<Bluelight>I just play, and suddently I get conncetion problems.. And when they start, there is no end.. :p
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: don't need to be thick bold lines, just some tiny light shade of grey or something
15:29<andythenorth>I'll figure something out
15:31<Bluelight>Is it normal that the host don't see their own servers in the list?
15:32<Bluelight>I often see my server her:
15:32<Bluelight>But not ingame server list..
15:33<Bluelight>Damn, I need to get the server hardware running.. Can anyone give me some scripts I can use?
15:33<@Rubidium>it depends on your local network setup, but the most common home setups don't route traffic back into the local networke
15:34<Bluelight>I see it on LAN
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15:35<@Rubidium>yes... and with the find server it tries to find the server based on the external IP of your connection
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15:36<@Rubidium>problem is that in 99% of the cases the router does not allow traffic from within the local network to go back into the local network
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>Bluelight: the problem is you can't see the house number that is mounted on your wall from inside the house
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>you need to go outside to see it
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>and most setups don't allow you to go back into the house once you left it
15:38<__ln>Rubidium: the percentage is lower than 99 nowadays.
15:40<Bluelight>Ok, thanks.. :) :p
15:42<Bluelight>Is it possible to connect to the server as player and then tell it to restart or something?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, with "rcon"
15:43<Eddi|zuHause><insert link to wiki here>
15:43<Bluelight>Someone got to learn me this stuff..
15:43<Bluelight>Sorry for asking so much that may be written in wiki
15:44<Bluelight>I'm not good at using wiki
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>that is your chance to get better now ;)
15:47<Bluelight>How does the game know if I'm an admin?
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>because you give it a password
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15:47<+glx>you know the rcon password you have set in the config file
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15:47<Bluelight>Ok, cool
15:48<frosch123>actually that stuff is also on the wiki :p
15:48<Luukland>IF you even have set a rcon pass in the first place :)
15:48<+glx>of course, no password => no rcon
15:48<Bluelight>Execute <command> on the server authenticated by <password> while connected as a client. The password must be set in advance locally on the server with by "rcon_pw <password>".
15:50<__ln>22:43 < Bluelight> Someone got to learn me this stuff.. <--- are you from sweden?
15:50<Bluelight>What do you mean, he he..? Norway here..
15:51<Bluelight>But I see you are from Sweden..
15:52<__ln>ah, well.. i guess norwegian too has "lära" = "teach" and "lära sig" = "learn".
15:52<frosch123>is it trendy to be from sweden?
15:52<Luukland>IKEA = Trendy
15:52<Luukland>so Sweden = Trendy :)
15:53<Luukland>Easy mathematics
15:53<__ln>frosch123: can't tell, because i'm not
15:54<Bluelight>Is frosch123 from Berlin, Germany?
15:55<__ln>Bluelight: so that's why swedish speakers tend to confuse "learn" and "teach" when speaking english.
15:55<frosch123>obviously i am from frnk
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15:57<Bluelight>Hmm... It say I'm from The Netherlands.. Well it's kind of true, my fathers mother was from The Netherlands.. Whois command is a bit faulty..
15:57<frosch123>nextgentel is norwegian accoring to google
15:58<frosch123>so weird whois you use
15:58<Bluelight>Yeah, thats true..
16:00<frosch123>deserted noai support channel
16:01<__ln>the /whois command is not even supposed to tell yoD[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[Du where the person is from.
16:01<__ln>wtf happened
16:01<+glx>you failed
16:01<__ln>great work, PuTTY.
16:07<thingwath>I wonder how many languages have different words for teach and learn, and how many use the same one, only in a different way.
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>Bluelight: /whois doesn't tell you where the person is, but to which server the person is connected to
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>which may or may not have any kind of geographical relevance
16:11<sparr>if I have a train that can carry pax, and i send it to a station that provides pax, will the train trigger pax delivery to the station if it has no-load orders?
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. "someone" from the netherlands tends to get servers in the USA
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16:13<Bluelight>Yeah, I figured that out.. lol :p
16:13<Bluelight>But how do I load a game with -g?
16:14<Bluelight>The savegame contains spaces..
16:15<Luukland>-g "savegame with spaces"
16:16<sparr>-g savegame\ with\ spaces
16:16<Bluelight>Don't work..
16:16<Muxy>depending linux/windows
16:16<sparr>paste the exact line here?
16:17<sparr>oh, yeah, windows is crazy
16:17<Bluelight>Ahh.. I got it working.. :)
16:17<Muxy>windows will prefer double quote
16:17<Ammler>the save game naming format of openttd is very ugly...
16:17<sparr>ugly and not particularly useful
16:18<sparr>my company almost always has the same name
16:18<sparr>the name of the network server would be a very handy thing to have in the save name
16:18<sparr>i care much more about which saves are from which server than about any other information in the savegame name
16:18<Ammler>well, I meant, you should name it self
16:19<Ammler>but then, you have similar ugly names for the screens
16:20<Bluelight>What is wrong when I open a savegame and my enemy lose all his tracks?
16:20<sparr>everything i said applies to screenshots too :)
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16:21<HackaLittleBit>evenin everybody
16:22<Ammler>Bluelight: some autoclean settings?
16:22<Ammler>or in sp mode?
16:22<Bluelight>No, multiplayer..
16:22<Terkhen>hi HackaLittleBit
16:26<HackaLittleBit>just a question inbetween, does anybody know what bits 2,3,4 and 5 do in m6 on tunnel bridge tile in the landscape array?
16:27<HackaLittleBit>are those the speed bits?
16:27<Yexo> knows
16:27<SpComb>hmm, the gamelog reports the wrong filename for a NewGRF where I have two NewGRFs with the same GRFID
16:28<HackaLittleBit>yexo: I read it
16:28<Yexo>spcomb: you shouldn't be able to have 2 newgrfs with the same grfid in one game
16:28<SpComb>I don't
16:28<SpComb>but I have then indexed
16:29<HackaLittleBit>Yexo: it only mentions bit 1,2 and 6,7
16:29<Yexo>HackaLittleBit: ah, sorry, the documentation is incomplete there
16:29<HackaLittleBit>I think it is for bridge speed
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16:30<Yexo>I don't think the bridge speed is stored in the map array
16:30<@Belugas>nope it is not
16:30<Yexo>the bridge type is stored there
16:30<frosch123>bridgespeed is in BridgeSpec
16:30<Yexo>HackaLittleBit: it's documented under m5 bit7
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16:31<@Belugas>auto killed? like suicide?
16:32<frosch123>m6 bits 5..2: bridge type <- it is documented correctly, isn't it? just the table with the original bridges is somewhat prehistoric :p
16:33<HackaLittleBit>yexo: thanks
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>Belugas: more like suicide by cop
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16:39*Belugas checks on bridges table.
16:39<+glx>just 3rd time ;)
16:42<@Belugas>the table looks strange...
16:42<@Belugas>why have i set it like that???
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16:49<HackaLittleBit>night :)
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16:57<@Belugas>right... night too
16:57<Coco-Banana-Man>night Belugas
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19:07<Terkhen>good night
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19:52<PeterT>yes, that's the answer
19:52<ss23>I thought he got killed on nick, rather than the bopm
19:52<ss23>And I was like o.O Who added that nick ban
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>why would someone with a nick of "_inf3ct" be infected? :p
20:00<ss23>That's what I was thinking
20:00<ss23>Mabe he just thought it would be lulz to use a proxy anyway
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>and what's with the spammer attack today?
20:03-!-DaZ [] has joined #openttd
20:05<PeterT>why is #openttd.notice so behind?
20:07-!-DaZ_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>because you broke it.
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20:29<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: Your logic is flawed.
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>i'd beg to differ, thank you very much.
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20:31<Eddi|zuHause>couldn't someone just g-line everybody who matches *!~devil@*?
20:31<PeterT>Your welcome
20:31<Eddi|zuHause>my welcome indeed
20:31<__ln>whose welcome?
20:32<Eddi|zuHause>your sentence misses a verb, though
20:32<Eddi|zuHause>and either a subject or an object
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20:36<PeterT>you're missing an object
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20:36<_inf3ct>It was just bugging me that it happend to be that nick every time
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20:47<+glx>it's not the need, it's the botnet
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20:53<Eddi|zuHause>"brln" <-- so much for /whois not giving away the location :p
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>seriously, any geo-ip database can determine the location within a radius of 20km
20:55<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: sorry, just a reference to a previous discussion ;)
20:56<fonsinchen>So there's more people from Berlin here? Interesting ...
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>no, that part was indeed about you
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>but earlier some guy was /whois-ing people and mistook the server location as the client location
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21:06<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: glx est sur le serveur : - Nuernberg, Germany <-- I'm german ;)
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21:07<Eddi|zuHause>glx: my condolences :p
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21:24<PeterT>I'm german ;) <-- Really? Is that so?
21:24<PeterT>You make alot of french translations
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21:30<PeterT>that's for you, glx
21:31<+glx>you totally misunderstood the point :)
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 13 00:00:58 2010