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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-01-13

---Logopened Wed Jan 13 00:00:58 2010
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01:40<Terkhen>good morning
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01:46<Forked>morning, sir and/or ma'am :-)
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01:59<Terkhen>neither, I will not be a person until I have my coffee
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02:01<Forked>hehe
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02:13<Terkhen>hmmm... with each new release, ubuntu looks more like windows
02:13<ss23>Are you talking about gnome or unbuntu?
02:13<Forked>"ubuntu is an african word that means 'freebsd is too hard'"
02:13<Terkhen>ubuntu, I can't talk about other distros
02:14<ss23>Terkhen: No, ubuntu is the distro, Gnome is the name of the software that decides how it looks
02:14<ss23>if that makes sense
02:14<Terkhen>I know, what I mean is that I don't know if the windows-like details are in ubuntu or in gnome because I haven't see gnome at work in other distros to compare
02:16<ss23>Terkhen: Well if it's how it works, the applications they're installing with it, or how the installation process works, basically how it works rather than how it lokos, its ubuntu, if you're talking about how it looks, as in, the color's, the shapes etc, it's gnome
02:17<@peter1138>i'd argue the other way around...
02:18<ss23>peter1138: How so?
02:18<Terkhen>I don't know where the problem is, I just know it exists :)
02:18<@peter1138>ubuntu: it's linux, running gnome. and it's brown.
02:19<ss23>o.O
02:19<ss23>I don't understand
02:19<ss23>Do you mean the other way around in that it's looking less like windows, or the other way around in the the looks are ubuntu and how it works is gnome?
02:20<@peter1138>the latter, pretty much. ignoring installation details of course.
02:20<ss23>o.O
02:20<ss23>Meh
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02:20<@peter1138>ubuntu: it's debian. but brown. and more bugs.
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02:23<Terkhen>and it is also becoming slower... I guess that's expected when you chose to imitate windows
02:23<Terkhen>I'll try debian next time
02:28<@peter1138>arrr, it snew!
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02:38<Nite_Owl>Hello all
02:44<sparr>ubuntu is a bit easier for a new user because it has better hardware configuration and inter-program integration out of the box
02:45<sparr>I gave kubuntu a couple of years, and ubuntu about a year, but I'm back to debian now. I can't stand ubuntu's package release cycle.
02:45<sparr>with ubuntu you can have old packages, or broken packages. i find that to be a false dichotomy and reject it.
02:46<@peter1138>with debian you just have old packages :D
02:49<Terkhen>that's why I chose ubuntu at first, almost anything else caused trouble with the laptop I had back then... nothing made me think about changing distro until the 9.x releases
02:51<sparr>peter1138: bah
02:52<sparr>debian is pretty close to cutting edge
02:52<sparr>gentoo and arch stay up to a few weeks ahead, but generally more like a few days
02:52<@Rubidium>sparr: that heavily depends on the packages
02:53<sparr>Rubidium: weighted in favor of packages that change often
02:53<@Rubidium>is once every two months often enough? :)
02:53<sparr>sure. which package? how far behind is debian?
02:54<@Rubidium>you say gentoo is ahead, right?
02:54<sparr>every two months is what i would consider a rapid release cycle :)
02:54<@Rubidium>I was saying that that just isn't always the case
02:54<sparr>i'd probably say gentoo is the most cutting edge distro, with regard to which and which versions of software are available "packaged"
02:54<@Rubidium>e.g. with Debian
02:54<sparr>so, counterexamples?
02:55<@Rubidium>uhm... s/Debian/OpenTTD/
02:55<sparr>what version would you expect?
02:55<sparr>0.7.5 is the latest release
02:55<@peter1138>07:52 < sparr> debian is pretty close to cutting edge
02:55<@peter1138>ah, you must be a sid user
02:56<sparr>it's in squeeze too :-p
02:56<sparr>but of course sid
02:56<@Rubidium>sparr: I would expect that Gentoo would've stabilized 0.7.5 by now
02:56<sparr>debian "unstable" is more stable every day than ubuntu's final release candidates the day before they release
02:57<@peter1138>s/candidates.*//
02:57<@Rubidium>ofcourse... three full weeks since 0.7.5 and the CVE announcement they're still not even done on one architecture
02:57<sparr>no 0.7.5 in gentoo? :(
02:57<sparr>that makes me a little sad
02:58<@Rubidium>sparr: only a masked versionr
02:58<sparr>but i don't use gentoo for a lot of other reasons
02:58<@Rubidium>though I agree that Debian sid is generally more stable than Ubuntu release and faster than Gentoo
02:59<sparr>debian is the only distro for desktop power users, imho
02:59<@peter1138>that's why i run it on all my servers
02:59<sparr>although i would probably choose debian, i could be persuaded to run arch or centos on a server
03:00<sparr>on a desktop... i only gave ubuntu a chance because it really really tried. it's just failed.
03:00<Terkhen>failed how?
03:01<@peter1138>centos is bloody horrible on a server
03:01<@peter1138>never used arch though
03:03<sparr>Terkhen: to produce a distro superior to the alternatives for the uses they aim for
03:04<@Rubidium>only thing I consider bad is that debian-security doesn't want to do security updates for contrib; they have to get in via the next point release of the stable
03:04<sparr>there is once again no situation in which i would recommend ubuntu. even for the complete novice or livecd user there are better options
03:04<Terkhen>what problems you had with ubuntu?
03:05<sparr>like most distros, they abandoned KDE3 for KDE4 far too early. like almost no other debian-based distro, they ignore otherwise valid upgrade paths, and classify bugs related to such as WONTFIX
03:05<@Rubidium>their merry choice to go with pulseaudio, but not going with pulseaudio all the way
03:06<sparr>a .deb is broken if it fails to upgrade (or fail gracefully) from any version to any other version. in ubuntu, the only "supported" upgrade path is to upgrade one or two versions of the base OS at a time
03:06<jonty-comp>ubuntu used to support my wifi card, then stopped
03:06<sparr>Rubidium: i think simply "pulseaudio" encompasses that whole issue :)
03:06<sparr>so...
03:06<sparr>pulseaudio :)
03:06<jonty-comp>and their grub changed, so I don't know how to use it anymore
03:06<jonty-comp>well, edit it
03:06<jonty-comp>so debian for me
03:07<jonty-comp>plus I dislike the colour scheme
03:07<@Rubidium>see the *countless* bug reports *we* are getting about them not going with pulseaudio all the way
03:07<jonty-comp>and now, off to do a statistics exam, whee
03:07<sparr>ubuntu is rife with package conflicts and inconsistencies.
03:07<Terkhen>okay... I guess after trying debian I'll see what I was missing
03:09<sparr>ubuntu is debian, improved in a few small ways, then broken hard.
03:09<sparr>the worst part of ubuntu is their package release cycle
03:10<sparr>using ubuntu alphas and betas is very dangerous. i'd say i have averaged 3-5 days every six months when i could not use my computer due to broken packages in ubuntu+1
03:10<sparr>NOT using ubuntu alphas and betas means you are stuck with packages 6-9 months old
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03:11<Noldo>if 6-9 months is too old you really don't have that many choices available
03:11<@Rubidium>sparr: to be fair, Debian SID is at the moment uninstallable if you want the amd/ati-fglrx drivers
03:12<sparr>Rubidium: that may be so. I haven't been naive enough to buy an ATI video card for a linux box in at least 8 years.
03:14<Terkhen>when I started with linux, I had an ATI video card... my last one
03:15<@Rubidium>although... the question is what other choices are there? Had an Intel GPU but that was lagging during video playback, never ever liked nvidia.
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03:16<sparr>I've had good experiences with nVidia, SiS, and ColorGraphic cards
03:16<@Rubidium>and ATI's driver has been working quite fine (if you don't switch to console and back again)
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03:16<sparr>the latter when I needed 4 and 16 head display outputs
03:16<@Rubidium>also choices are quite limited when you're looking for a laptop with 1920x1200 @ 15"
03:16<sparr>i concur
03:17<sparr>[un]fortunately, my eyesight is not good enough to ever shop for such
03:18<@Rubidium>nevertheless the new version of the free radeonhd driver looks promising, but then I need to upgrade xorg which means there's no easy way back
03:19<@Rubidium>as the fglrx driver doesn't work for the new xorg yet
03:20<@Rubidium>anyhow, if 2D acceleration works fine and the powermanagement reasonably... bye bye fglrx :)
03:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: gridlines...can you see them? http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=everything
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04:02*peter1138 ponders merging all his .c/.h files into one
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04:15<@peter1138>presumably better for optimization
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04:19<Terkhen>how should I document pure virtual functions? at the virtual declaration, at the real implementation or both?
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04:25<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: we really need more information on how to reproduce that AI but there is no AI (multiplayer?) crash. I've tried several things and none seem to trigger it.
04:31<fonsinchen>Well, I don't have much info about it either. I only have the crash reports from xZise in the cargodist thread. They show the same backtrace as the one you have there. As there is a crash.png in the reports and xZise says he was playing on a dedicated server, it has been suggested that these are client-side crashes. Also by opening the crash dump it occured to me that for some company c->is_ai was true and c->ai_instance was null which c
04:32<fonsinchen>I also told xZise to add some info to the FS task. Maybe he'll do.
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04:41<Terkhen>peter1138: regarding r18766, DrawRailEnginePurchaseInfo at build_vehicle_gui.cpp and GetTrainEngineInfoString at engine_gui.cpp are still using the old method
04:41<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: your first line is truncated after 'was null which c'
04:41<fonsinchen>which causes the crash
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04:46<@Rubidium>valgrind doesn't find anything useful either... this is going to be a big mistery I fear
04:48<fonsinchen>Maybe we can find out where is_ai is set to true and double check that ai_instance is not null there.
04:50<fonsinchen>I see three places: in the constructor of Company, in LoadOldCompany and in the saveload-Handler
04:50<fonsinchen>Probably only the Constructor can be the cause of this crash.
04:52<fonsinchen>ai_instance is written in Ai::StartNew and Ai::Stop
04:53<Terkhen>DrawWidget at vehicle_gui.cpp also uses the old method of determining if a train uses maglev acceleration... I'll create a flyspray task
04:53<fonsinchen>So there must be some situation where the Company constructor is called with true, but no AI is created ...
04:57<fonsinchen>if (is_ai && (!_networking || _network_server)) AI::StartNew(c->index);
04:57<fonsinchen>So it won't start on the client, right?
04:57<fonsinchen>This is from company_cmd.cpp:497
04:59<fonsinchen>Rubidium: at company_cmd.cpp:472 a company is created, possibly with is_ai == true. In line 497 the AI used for that company is created, but not on network clients.
04:59<@peter1138>Terkhen, create a patch ;
05:00<Terkhen>done, I'm currently testing if I messed up something :)
05:00<Terkhen>I'll upload it after testing
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05:16<Terkhen>done: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3526
05:20<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: okay, that creates a company without instance set, but *only* when a client right?
05:21<@Rubidium>because AI::GameLoop bails out if "networking && (!server || !ai-in-mp)"
05:22<@Rubidium>so locally ai-in-mp must be enabled, which is easy to prove it can happen
05:22<@Rubidium>and it must be a network server, which is quite unlikely
05:22<@Rubidium>or it must not be a network game
05:24<@Rubidium>unless...
05:24<@Rubidium>you're kicked out of a network game but keep playing the game you were playing
05:30<@Rubidium>but as far as I can remember there is no code path for leaving the server and continueing to play
05:33<@Rubidium>although... maybe it is triggerable under Windows because of the different video backend and possibly different timings, but I seriously doubt that
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05:39<fonsinchen>I'll have a second look at it later
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07:24<Eddi|zuHause>[13.01.2010 09:23] <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: gridlines...can you see them? http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=everything <--- i can't see any gridlines
07:25<andythenorth>EddizuHause ok, either (i) they're too light, (ii) you have a crazy monitor setting or (iii) your browser has cached the images
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: seems to be a cache thingy...
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the grid looks offset by a few pixels...
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: like at the south corner of the bakery, it doesn't seem properly aligned
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>looks like this for most of the south corners
07:39<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: must be a perceptual thing with the pixels of the ground tile. it is on the gridline correctly
07:39<andythenorth>the grid isn't quite drawn as might be expected, as I want 1px lines. So the NW / SW edges sit over the gridline, the NE/SE edges site next to the gridline.
07:39<andythenorth>(gridlines in game are 2px wide)
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but it doesn't look nice...
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07:45<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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07:48<Nite_Owl>Sidewinder x8 or MX1100 ?? (no one is awake in the other channel)
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>is that a chainsaw?
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>or a motor cycle?
07:49<ss23>Eddi|zuHause: mice >.<
07:50<ss23>Special breeds
07:52<Nite_Owl>Okay then - what is your preferred mouse
07:53<thingwath>I had a hamster.
07:54<ss23>Nite_Owl: Just any field mouse is fine for me
07:54<Noldo>har har
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>i prefer guinea pigs
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>they're slightly larger and fit my hand better
07:59<wysiwtf>how do i enable gridlines?
08:01<wysiwtf>and which GRFs would you suggest if one doesnt really care for realistic vehicles/trains but just wants a fun and enhanced gameplay without messing up too much gamebalance?
08:01<Noldo>I'm in the understanding that it is a feature in the ground tile graphics
08:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the bakery now has a 2px grid. Any better? http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=basic
08:03<andythenorth>(probably be cached again)
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what if you just move the old grid one pixel to the left?
08:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: offset grid...might work: http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industry_objects/bakery
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08:07<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that looks better
08:08<andythenorth>ok, I'll re-export them all with that <sigh>
08:08<andythenorth>colour of the lines work for you?
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08:09<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it's fine
08:13<andythenorth>:)
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10:03<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18794 /trunk/src/crashlog.cpp: -Codechange: add local company and network 'state' to the crash log
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11:28<Ammler>he, people can't differ between Multiplayer and NoAI-AIs :-)
11:29*Rubidium wonders what Ammler is thinking about
11:29<@Rubidium>hope it isn't FS#3445
11:29<dihedral>@fs 3445
11:29<@DorpsGek>dihedral: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3445
11:30<dihedral>yeah ... "It works!"
11:31<Ammler>Rubidium: the Intro save game competition thread.
11:32<Ammler>someone used AIs and Alberth complained about, now they think, Multiplayer isn't allowed for the save
11:32*dihedral hands Ammler an "it"
11:32-!-Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd
11:33<Ammler>thanks :-)
11:33<dihedral>you always forget that one!!
11:33<Ammler>true :'-(
11:35<Ammler>isn't it possible to remove a AI without deleting the company?
11:41<@Rubidium>not with a default client IIRC
11:45-!-Timmaexx [~quassel@port-92-201-251-168.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
11:45<Timmaexx>G'evening
11:50<+glx>Rubidium: he just needs to set number of oppenents to 0 and find a way to crash the AIs ;)
11:51<Yexo>glx: no,then the AI would restart when you load the savegame again
11:52<+glx>that's the first step :)
11:53<+glx>anyway if the AI then always crash on start it's ok
11:53<+glx>but not clean ;)
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12:30<@Belugas>hello
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12:40<Terkhen>hi Belugas
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13:39<Wolf01>hello
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r18795 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt portuguese.txt spanish.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: dutch - 190 changes by Hirundo
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: portuguese - 2 changes by JayCity
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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14:00<duharmail>I am looking for some Swedes to play with
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14:14<@Belugas>racist
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14:20<sparr>so hard to go back to 0.7.5 after getting used to 0.8.0-svn and 1.0.0-beta
14:21<@Rubidium>really? All those people that claim that there're not much new features in 1.0.0/trunk over 0.7
14:21<Ammler>sparr go farer, something like 0.4.5 then ;-)
14:22<@Rubidium>well... a few weeks ago frosch and I played a network game... but nobody else joined
14:22<@Rubidium>we were quite sad nobody wanted to join the nice 0.3.5 server :)
14:22<planetmaker>haha :-)
14:23<sparr>Rubidium: well, not having opengfx is one big change, but the one that keeps getting me is all the missing global keyboard shortcuts
14:23<sparr>Rubidium: like, 0.7.5 only accepts terraforming keys when the tf bar is open, but all newer versions accept them from anywhere
14:24<@Rubidium>opengfx works in 0.7.5 too (opensfx doesn't though)
14:24<sparr>it WORKS
14:24<sparr>but it's not 100%
14:24<sparr>openSFX too
14:24<sparr>i had to go find the old GRFs before i could run 0.7.5
14:24<sparr>GRF/CATs
14:24<@Rubidium>opensfx does not work in 0.7.5
14:24<sparr>"too" as in it's a problem too :)
14:27<sparr>it took me like 20 minutes to "acquire" a copy of sample.cat
14:28<frosch123>"few weeks ago" :p
14:30<frosch123>but, yeah, the "my first internet game was with 0.3.5" was definitely worth playing for :p
14:31<@Rubidium>year, time is relative :)
14:33<@peter1138>i think mine was...
14:40<andythenorth>hi hi
14:42-!-PeterT [~PeterT@c-76-19-170-45.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
14:46<PeterT>@seen fonsinchen
14:46<@DorpsGek>PeterT: fonsinchen was last seen in #openttd 9 hours, 6 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <fonsinchen> I'll have a second look at it later
14:47*andythenorth shouldn't be annoyed by forums users but is.
14:47*Forked didn't do it
14:48<andythenorth>hi hi
14:48-!-TheMask96 [martijn@wrath.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:48<@Belugas>andythenorth, you'll eventually get used to it...
14:48<@Belugas>some are good, some are...
14:48<@Belugas>hurgh
14:49<andythenorth>some are even right, but so fricking annoying I want to argue with them....even when they're right
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14:56<@peter1138>hell hyeha
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15:04<planetmaker>andythenorth, I know that feeling, too ;-)
15:04<planetmaker>not a good one, though :S
15:05<@Belugas>what blew me up, is that guy who though that nightlies never work :[
15:05<planetmaker>hehe.
15:06<planetmaker>I read that and thought something like "let others put this guys head straight. Even if not: not our loss"
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15:07<Yexo>that guy didn't annoy me much, he just didn't know better
15:10*frosch123 was again lucky and missed that post :p
15:11<planetmaker>:-) sure he didn't (doesn't?) know better.
15:12<Yexo>I find djlazy much more annoying
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15:15<@Belugas>mmh...nice quote...
15:16-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
15:19*andythenorth ponders learning C++
15:19<Eddi|zuHause><sparr> it took me like 20 minutes to "acquire" a copy of sample.cat <- it takes me 5 seconds to open a console and type "touch sample.cat"
15:19<planetmaker>Yexo, djlazy?
15:20<Yexo>yes, that guy that cannot spell nor read
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15:22<andythenorth>most programming languages suck. does C++ suck?
15:22<SpComb>andythenorth: of course
15:22<SpComb>andythenorth: and some programming languages suck more than others
15:22<SpComb>depending on who you ask, of course
15:22<andythenorth>as a thing to work with nfo is quite pleasing. Does C++ suck a lot more than nfo?
15:23<@Belugas>some less. but they all sucks dependeing of yuor degree of ignorance on it
15:23<Alberth>less, you can use letters!
15:23<SpComb>NFO is more comparable to ASM
15:23<@Belugas>waht i mean, the more you are good in one, the more you like it
15:23<SmatZ>hehe
15:23<andythenorth>Belugas: I (was) bloody good at Actionscript, and I hate it
15:23<Alberth>hmm, that must be why I don't like Eclipse :p
15:24<andythenorth>I'm crap at python, but I love it
15:24<fjb>C++ has a crude syntax, lacks garbage collection and design by contract. Else it is quite ok.
15:24<SmatZ>"the more you are force to use it, the more you hate it" can be true too
15:24<frosch123>and the less you know, the more you believe they are the best and suited for everything
15:24<SmatZ>*forced
15:24<SmatZ>hehe
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: C++ "sucks" in the way that it has many pitfalls for people who don't know exactly what they're doing
15:24<SpComb>fjb: it has a looooong list of faults
15:24<@Rubidium>fjb: and java sucks because it has garbage collection, right?
15:24<SmatZ>:-)
15:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that's the main thing that puts me off trying to hack anything on OpenTTD
15:25<Alberth>Rubidium: lack of pointers, imho :p
15:25<fjb>Rubidium: Java sucks because it lacks multiple inheritance and design by contact.
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: don't let that put you off, but get advise from people more experienced than you when you're done
15:25<@Rubidium>Alberth: so you're a C# fanboy :)
15:26<@Rubidium>that does have pointers... kindof
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but in a way that you shouldn't ever use for a sane program?
15:26<fjb>And Java has Objects and other types. You have to put an integer into an integer object to do object oriented things with it. :-(
15:26<Alberth>Rubidium: wrong manufacturer, but LINQ seems kind of cool.
15:26<SpComb>andythenorth: even better, OpenTTD is still largely C
15:27<@Rubidium>SpComb: yeah, C compiled with C++ :)
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15:32<Terkhen>I love C++, probably because it's the language I have used most frequently
15:32<andythenorth>hmm...so the OpenTTD src mostly makes sense if I just pick a file and try and read it....but I can't picture how the whole thing hangs together
15:33<frosch123>start with something you know :)
15:33<andythenorth>ummm...python? pixels?
15:34<frosch123>well, no idea what hacking you want to do :) do you want to become the osx maintainer?
15:34<Terkhen>but when you think that you understand a part of OpenTTD code, something strange appears that shatters your understanding :P
15:34<Yexo>you don't have to understand all of the code to work with it
15:34<andythenorth>frosch123: no, I don't want to maintain the OS X port. Sad to say.
15:34<frosch123>Terkhen: as nfo coder andy is used to that :p
15:35<Terkhen>Yexo: that's why I'm able to make patches :)
15:35<@Rubidium>speaking of the OS X port... that's Bjarni's turf... so your understanding is probably better than Bjarni's
15:35<andythenorth>my understanding of OS X internals is 0%
15:36<andythenorth>I feel bad saying that, if there hadn't been a fully-working Mac OpenTTD I would never have bothered playing it
15:37<andythenorth>but now I can either compile myself, or use Crossover / Wine
15:38<@peter1138>http://englishrussia.com/?p=5750#more-5750
15:38<@peter1138>NSFW!
15:42<andythenorth>frosch123: I am looking for newgrf industry code in openttd src. Not so much to hack on something, but to understand it...
15:42<andythenorth>newgrf_industries_h seems pretty sparse
15:43-!-a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
15:44<Yexo>andythenorth: try newgrf.cpp and newgrf_industries.cpp
15:45<Yexo>and industry_cmd.cpp has a lot of code too
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15:45<frosch123>and newgrf_industrytiles :)
15:45-!-duharmail [jonas@78.72.137.38] has quit []
15:45<frosch123>start with grepping for "Variable" :p
15:45<andythenorth>thanks
15:46<frosch123>or look into newgrf_callback.h, for stuff to grep for
15:47<Alberth>andythenorth: for 'the bigger picture', I often follow function calls, jumping from one file to another, and reading small parts of it.
15:48<andythenorth>ok, thanks
15:48-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-121-26.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:48<frosch123>so, get an editor with ctags support :p
15:48<andythenorth>have any of you ever coded Flash?
15:48<frosch123>no
15:49<Yexo>not really
15:49<andythenorth>...used to leave code everywhere. include files, timeline code, code on objects, code on object timelines...
15:49<andythenorth>madness
15:49<andythenorth>but strangely intuitive
15:49<Alberth>until it became too large?
15:50<Terkhen>sounds like NFO
15:50-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-61-91.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
15:50<Alberth>'intuitive' would not be my description of NFO :p
15:51<Terkhen>no, but it becomes strangely intuitive after a while
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15:51<planetmaker>it has a kinda funny learning curve
15:52<planetmaker>it's all gibberish until you stared long enough at it. Then it suddenly starts to make sense not only in parts
15:52<planetmaker>assuming that it's at least somewhat documented nfo and not de-compiled one. That's harder
15:53<andythenorth>coded this in flash many years ago (turn your sound down first)
15:53<andythenorth>http://www.miniclip-games.net/games/3108.html
15:53<Terkhen>I did not know about ctags O_O
15:53<Terkhen>not for gedit and notepad++, at least
15:53<Alberth>planetmaker: like vi :p
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15:54<planetmaker>Alberth, yes, kinda :-)
15:54<andythenorth>first one to find the conceptual flaw in that flash game wins....err the game really easily :)
15:54<planetmaker>Once gotten the hang of it, there's no easier "quickly edit these few lines" editor
15:55<Alberth>perhaps emacs, but since vi and emacs are mutually exclusive... :)
15:55<dihedral>http://www.break.com/the-big-game/bud-light-rock-paper-scissors.html
15:55<dihedral>:-D
15:57<dihedral>does anybody know something of TrueBrain?
15:57<@Rubidium>is that a retorical question or not?
15:57<dihedral>was not suppose to be
15:58<@Rubidium>in that case... I know his real name
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of information should we have?
15:58-!-Yexo_ [~Yexo@38-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd
15:58<dihedral>well - not seen him in a while
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15:59<Terkhen>andythenorth: it reminds me of tsuro
15:59<dihedral>i am not used to not seing him on irc for a longer period of time
15:59<Alberth>visit #opendune
15:59<Yexo>try #opendune
15:59<dihedral>try /whois TrueBrain
15:59<andythenorth>Terkhen: try using the bomb to build a loop track....endless points :)
15:59<@Rubidium>maybe because I possibly killed his bouncer
16:00<dihedral>ah :-)
16:00<@Rubidium>but then... I killed way more at that moment
16:02<dihedral>looks like someone likes killing stuff
16:02<dihedral>:P
16:03<@Rubidium>nah, only as final solution
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16:07<@peter1138># it's the final solution, da na na naaaa
16:08<Terkhen>andythenorth: and after pausing in a curve, some parts of the train start moving in the opposite direction :P looks nice anyways, I'll bookmark it to play later
16:09<andythenorth>I made email friends with phil steinmeyer (creator of railroad tycoon 2 and 3) due to that game :)
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16:14<dihedral>like i said, you seem to like killing stuff :-P
16:15<Terkhen>you didn't had problems using the name of his game then :P
16:15<andythenorth>Terkhen: it was marketing for RT3, they paid for it :)
16:15-!-amiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
16:17<Terkhen>even better
16:20*andythenorth wonders if reading src is actually easier than the newgrf wiki
16:20<planetmaker>andythenorth, not really :-)
16:20<planetmaker>but it depends
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16:22<Sp4rk>Hello can someone help me with a question about open ttd?
16:22-!-|Terkhen| [~Terkhen@251.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
16:22<PeterT>Sp4rk: You need to ask the question first.
16:23-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77B4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:23<Sp4rk>The messages or "news" that slides up at the bottom of the screen while playing. Is there a way to disable them? They're a bit distracting.
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>Sp4rk: yes, click and hold the newspaper icon at the top
16:24<PeterT>Newspaper -> Message settings
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>there you can select the message options
16:24<Sp4rk>Thank you so much!
16:24<Sp4rk>(both of you lol)
16:24<Sp4rk>:)
16:25<Sp4rk>bye now
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16:32<Wolf01>'night
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16:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18796 /trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp: -Fix [FS#3521]: [SDL] possible deadlock when killing OpenTTD while starting it
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16:36<andythenorth>frosch123: I am looking at how industry var 68 accesses the layout of other industries...
16:36-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77B4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:36<andythenorth>...if 'i->selected_layout == layout_filter' is possible, what about 'i->was_cargo_delivered' ?
16:37<andythenorth>(or if anyone else knows...I owe frosch123 a lot of cookies already)
16:37<frosch123>andythenorth: then better add some variable that generally reads some variable of an industry
16:38<frosch123>just imagine the mess of lots of read x of nearby industry matching y criterion
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16:38<andythenorth>true, but the simple way....I stand a better chance of hacking for myself maybe? ...to test some industry ideas...
16:42<PeterT>yay, openttd.notice is fixed
16:42<Hirundo>Yexo: thanks for the quick reply
16:44<frosch123>bad luck PeterT, i pondered offering the job to you
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16:47*andythenorth : extending industry var 68 might be fun, but is perhaps a bit much for 'my first c++ project' :|
16:47<andythenorth>maybe I should go modify a GUI widget or something
16:48-!-oskari89 [~oskari89@212-149-205-119.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Quit: Utm A½ - Aja 35]
16:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18797 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix (r18781): building wagons didn't add them to a train
16:49<Yexo>andythenorth: modifying var67/var68 is actually pretty easy
16:50<Yexo>depending on what you want of course
16:50<Yexo>but the only funciton you need to modify is GetCountAndDistanceOfClosestInstance in newgrf_industries.cpp
16:50-!-helb [~helb@84.244.90.53] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:50<andythenorth>Yexo: I want to add arbitrary access to other variables in other industries
16:51<Yexo>ah, that's more difficult
16:51<andythenorth>yes
16:51<andythenorth>but really I only need was_cargo_delivered for my purpose
16:51<andythenorth>the problem is, I can only test it works if the nfo also works :o
16:52<frosch123>hehe, so maybe learn where to place printfs and simliar in the code to help yourself debugging the nfo :)
16:52<planetmaker>but the production callback.... doesn't it provide already information whether cargo was delivered?
16:52<andythenorth>planetmaker: this is for another industry
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16:52<andythenorth>i.e. somewhere else
16:53<frosch123>planetmaker: andy wants to teleport cargo from survey camp to nearby industries or so :p
16:53<andythenorth>...you know how some FIRS industries 'need electricity to boost production'...
16:53<planetmaker>oh. Whether nearby industry works? Right. Sorry, missed that
16:53<Yexo>andythenorth: main problem I see is: what industry should be returned? always the closest ofthe given (filtered) type?
16:53<andythenorth>Yexo: yes, closest is fine
16:55<frosch123>well, so you need a variable that takes a industry_type (maybe also grfid) and a industry variable to read. but it gets more difficult if the variable itself needs a paramter or even some register value. (of course you also need to block recursions :p)
16:55<frosch123>and i need to know, why i _always_ miss some "e" in parameter
16:56<andythenorth>frosch123...dunno, what does the wiki say?
16:56<andythenorth>:P
16:57<andythenorth>http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+i+_always_+miss+some+%22e%22+in+parameter
16:57<andythenorth>oh. google doesn't know!
16:58-!-asilv [~as@h-62-142-160-55.joensuunelli.fi] has quit []
16:58<andythenorth>hey I broke the game :) my compile failed. I won't be getting ships that are 2x as expensive to run :)
16:59*andythenorth tries again
16:59<Terkhen>andythenorth: are you going to code improved acceleration for ships? :P
17:00<andythenorth>ummm, I think we discussed that....
17:00<andythenorth>...but I forget, do ships go faster uphill or downhill?
17:01<Terkhen>I don't remember reaching any conclusions
17:02<andythenorth>Terkhen: supporting ship props 14 and 15 might be interesting
17:02<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Ships
17:02<andythenorth>currently TTDPatch only I think
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17:04<Terkhen>it does not sound complicated
17:04*andythenorth made ships 2x as expensive to run *without the aid of newgrf* :o
17:05*Yexo thinks a lot of people would find it more difficult to do *with the aid of newgrfs* :p
17:05<Phoenix_the_II>btw guys, is libtimidity required for compiling openttd?
17:05<Phoenix_the_II>or what do i miss if it aint installed
17:06<Yexo>midi (so sound/music) I think
17:07<Phoenix_the_II>and running openttd on kubuntu karmic 9.10 will generate 100% cpu all the time + quitting the game is impossible
17:07<Phoenix_the_II>have to kill -9 the game
17:07<planetmaker>I guess that is in the known bugs list
17:07<dihedral>that does not sound like a timidity thing
17:07<Alberth>that problem is discussed in the readme
17:07<Phoenix_the_II>o rly
17:07<Phoenix_the_II>:P
17:08<planetmaker>like "not our bug. Use proper libraries" or alike ;-)
17:08<Phoenix_the_II>which readme? :)
17:08<dihedral>odd - i do not have that issue on ubuntu 9.10
17:08<Phoenix_the_II>there is only a windows and OS2 readme
17:08<frosch123>[23:03] <andythenorth> Terkhen: supporting ship props 14 and 15 might be interesting <- but kind of deprecated with rivers, aren't they?
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>the readme of your tv remote control, of course
17:08<Alberth>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/readme.txt
17:09<Phoenix_the_II>Eddi|zuHause thanks never knew it had openttd stuff in it
17:09<Phoenix_the_II>ty Alberth
17:09<andythenorth>frosch123: I've never used rivers. I suppose rivers also should have a different speed limit to oceans?
17:09<Terkhen>hmmm... either rivers use the canal variable or a new variable needs to be reserved
17:09<dihedral>i have no idea how readme.txt is considered either a windows or os/2 only readme
17:10<frosch123>Terkhen: or you just add a "water class" variable and do the rest with callback 36 :p
17:10<dihedral>andythenorth, how do you get a speedlimit on water??
17:10<planetmaker>Terkhen, it would make rather sense to ... ^
17:10*planetmaker is slow
17:10<frosch123>ais get fooled either way
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>water type should be treated the same way as road type and rail type...
17:10<planetmaker>indeed
17:11<frosch123>you mean strict compatibility instead of speed penalties?
17:11<Terkhen>nothing is as simple as it seems at first :)
17:11<planetmaker>nah, the patch to come ;-)
17:11<frosch123>problem is: you can build canal nearly everywhere
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean provide the same callback structure
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>let the newgrf authors figure out how to restrict stuff on their own ;)
17:12<frosch123>and "sea" does not mean that it is wider than one tile :p
17:12<andythenorth>I am just trying to figure out if ship speed would ever differ by more than a few mph on different water types...
17:12<andythenorth>i.e. is there any gameplay benefit?
17:12<planetmaker>frosch123, despite it could make for an interesting twist with ships
17:12<planetmaker>Making oversea ships and coastal ships a distinct class of their own
17:12<planetmaker>given proper scenarios :-)
17:13<Phoenix_the_II>Alberth just read the readme, my problem isnt discussed in it?
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: possibly one might want to distinguish water tiles that have no shore next to them
17:13<frosch123>andythenorth: well, if you restrict big ships to sea, and small to canal (i.e. both with 10% speed on the other class) :p
17:13<dihedral>why on earth is plane and ship speed measured in mph or kmh and not knots? :-P
17:13<andythenorth>dihedral: because no-one has coded that yet?
17:13<Yexo>Phoenix_the_II: see known-bugs.txt -> http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/c5437f3ad28d/known-bugs.txt#l135
17:13<frosch123>dihedral: lies, they are 1/2 kmh or so
17:13<Phoenix_the_II>Yexo bingo!
17:13<Phoenix_the_II>:P
17:14<Phoenix_the_II>using pulse here yea
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>myfineshrine wants to do a central europe scenario with "raised" sea level, i.e. only rivers, so you can build a canal tunnel
17:14<dihedral>andythenorth, clever boy - get a yourself a biscuit
17:14<dihedral>Phoenix_the_II, i am using pulse too ;-)
17:14<dihedral>bu i have a bunch of pulse mods installed
17:14<andythenorth>1 knot = 1.852 km/h
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17:15<planetmaker>dihedral, knots is just mph. With a different mile as base ;-)
17:15*andythenorth looks for some code that shows ship display speed
17:15<dihedral>planetmaker, in an env with no windspeed, yeah!
17:15<planetmaker>dihedral, uhm...? everywhere?
17:15<Yexo>andythenorth: try GetDisplaySpeed in ship.h
17:15<planetmaker>knots = sea miles per hour
17:16<Phoenix_the_II>dihedral
17:16<Phoenix_the_II>using pulse on alsa here
17:16<dihedral>interesting!
17:16<planetmaker>s/sea/nautical/
17:16<frosch123>night
17:16<andythenorth>by frosch123
17:16-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fee5f.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:16<planetmaker>night frosch
17:16<andythenorth>bye /s
17:16<dihedral>installing 9.10 should setup the same base install
17:16<andythenorth>where are speed suffix strings defined?
17:16<planetmaker>translations
17:17<Terkhen>andythenorth: messing with units is more complicated than it seems, check my attempt to display weight with decimals at the improved rv patch
17:17<andythenorth>Terkhen: :o
17:17<Phoenix_the_II>yay
17:18<Phoenix_the_II>libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio+ recompiling fixed it :)
17:18<dihedral>pm: i was thinking of the instrumentation error :-P
17:18<dihedral>i.e. a plane on the ground heading in the wind, not moving at all, wind 10 knts
17:18<dihedral>will show a 'speed' of 10 knts :-P
17:18<planetmaker>dihedral, you can use (and is used) GPS for its determination
17:18<planetmaker>ships != planes :-)
17:18<dihedral>i know :-D
17:19<dihedral>but measured in knts in both cases :-D
17:19<dihedral>well - not always
17:19<planetmaker>indeed
17:19<planetmaker>2 20 knots indicated air speed :-) - may as well be only 150 knots ground speed
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17:19<dihedral>some older planes used to do (and still do) meters and kmh
17:19<planetmaker>if flying against the equatorial jets
17:20<dihedral>check the thrust gauges of the engines :-D
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17:20<dihedral>assuming jets :-)
17:20<planetmaker>:-P
17:20<planetmaker>those jets are wind jets ;-)
17:21<dihedral>or follow the rpm gauge on your prop :-P
17:22<planetmaker>well. All which really matters is indicated air speed and altitude
17:22<planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetstream <-- I talked about those jets ;-)
17:22<dihedral>LOL
17:22*andythenorth lots of players won't understand knots anyway
17:23<planetmaker>they slow down the plane jets ;-) - independent of their propulsion
17:23<dihedral>check youtube for "jam jar pulse jet"
17:23*andythenorth my ships *seem* like they go faster in mph. knots will make me look bad 9.9
17:23<planetmaker>they actually make for the different travel times from and to the US from here
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17:37<Terkhen>I managed to break X Server 10 minutes after finishing Debian installation
17:37<ss23>Nice Terkhen
17:37<ss23>:P
17:38<Terkhen>is there any kind of prize? :)
17:38<@Rubidium>no, 10 minutes is quite a lot of time
17:39<@Rubidium>I managed to get X server to be broken after installation
17:39<Terkhen>wow, I still have a lot to learn
17:39<@Rubidium>okay, I'm talking about potato here
17:45<Terkhen>hmmm... time to start again, I guess
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18:01<Terkhen>good night
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18:10<fjb>X and hald is a nasty combination.
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18:26<Nite_Owl>Hello all
18:26<PeterT>git-god, oh git-god, are you here?
18:27<PeterT>ashb: that means you
18:27<fjb>Moin Nite_Owl
18:28<Nite_Owl>Hello fjb
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18:40<ashb>PeterT: yes?
18:40<PeterT>never mind, it's been
18:40<PeterT>fixed
18:40<ashb>kk
18:41<PeterT>when typing the GIT repo's url manually, it won't checkout properly
18:42<ashb>hmm?
18:44<PeterT>well, it works now
18:44<PeterT>thanks for coming to help anyway
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18:48<Eddi|zuHause>hm... anybody care to explain what might cause the computer to simply shut off during memtest?
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18:53<SpComb>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_fault
18:54<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: electrical shorts, bad CPU, bad motherboard, bad RAM
18:55<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: the good news is that behavior is one of the few that can be absolutely guaranteed to be a hardware problem :)
18:55<SpComb>pfft, triggering a triple fault is trivial
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: but it says reboot, not turn off
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19:03<Bluelight>For some reason, my server wont advertise to the server list successfully anymore.. Any ideas?
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>in 99% of the cases it's your router/firewall setup
19:04-!-Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd
19:05<Bluelight>Do I have to go through this again.. :p I have opened all ports and the server worked fine yesterday.. What is different from now and then.. And I have disabled all firewalls..
19:06<Bluelight>It even worked earlier today, but now it wont..
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19:07<Bluelight>Anyway, I'm going AFK now so just write me something till I get back.. :) And thanks a lot! :)
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19:20<PeterT>fonsinchen here?
19:20<PeterT>regarding, http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=848441#p848441
19:21<PeterT>I did "git clone <repo"
19:21<PeterT>then "cd cargodist"
19:21-!-Polygon [~Poly@x0581b.wh7.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Quit: Flieht, ihr Narren!]
19:21<PeterT>and it was like this: /c/msys/1.0/home/cargodist (cargodist)
19:21<PeterT>so it was on the cargodist branch before I even did the git checkout origin/cargodist
19:24<PeterT>why does fullscreen mode always fail on my vista computer
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19:31<Bluelight>Back..
19:31<Bluelight>So! Nobody knows why my server wont show? :p
19:31<SpComb>PeterT: that's what clone does
19:32<PeterT>but it was never on a branch
19:32<SpComb>what do you mean?
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19:37<Bluelight>Wee! Now my server adverticed successfully.. Why is it not sometimes? Grr..?
19:39<SpComb>networks are fickle
19:40<Bluelight>Nothing wrong with my network.. Everything else works..
19:41<PeterT>that's what they all say
19:42<Bluelight>That means you don't know.. Why can't you just admit it? He he..
19:42<PeterT>Bluelight: I don't know.
19:42<Bluelight>Bah...
19:42<PeterT>your network is still messed up
19:42-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77A54.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:43<Bluelight>No, it's not.. :p
19:43<Bluelight>Anyways.. AFK
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19:50<fonsinchen>petert, you don't need to clone every time you update.
19:50<PeterT>i don;t
19:50<fonsinchen>Just do "git pull"
19:50<PeterT>i kno
19:50<fonsinchen>and create a local branch, so that you don't have to redo "git checkout origin/cargodist" all the time
19:51<PeterT>i deleted the repo because i had patvhed it
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19:51<fonsinchen>what is "patvhed"?
19:52<PeterT>are you asking me?
19:54<fonsinchen>I don't understand the word
19:54<fonsinchen>If I knew what it means I could maybe tell you what is the right thing to do when you have done that to your repo.
19:56<PeterT>*patched
19:57<fonsinchen>you can do "git reset --hard" to get back to the last revision of the current branch
19:57<PeterT>what about files created during patching?
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20:00<fonsinchen>they aren't reset, but you can find them with "git status"
20:01<fonsinchen>The best way to deal with a new patch is the following:
20:01<fonsinchen>1. create a new branch "git branch mypatch"
20:01<fonsinchen>2. "git checkout mypatch"
20:01<fonsinchen>3. apply the patch "patch -pX < mypatch.diff"
20:02<fonsinchen>4. find the missing files with "git status" and add them to the new branch with "git add <file>"
20:02<fonsinchen>5. "git commit -a"
20:02<fonsinchen>then do whatever you like with the patch
20:03<fonsinchen>if you want the unpatched version back do "git checkout <previous_branch>"
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20:04<fonsinchen>for example, I always keep a branch called "master" which mirrors the current trunk.
20:04<PeterT>wow, that's useful
20:05<fonsinchen>and the good thing is: if you change your mind later, you can "git checkout mypatch" and get the patched version back
20:06<fonsinchen>and you can do "git merge master" on the mypatch branch to merge changes in trunk (provided your trunk-mirroring branch is called "master")
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: so that would mean origin/master is trunk?
20:06<fonsinchen>you can also have a look at the file called "gitmake" in my repository to find out about various other tricks
20:07<PeterT>fonsinchen: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=848445#p848445
20:07<fonsinchen>Eddi|zuHause: almost. I have added gitmake and .gitignore
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>close enough ;)
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>i should have a look at this gitmake
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20:12<dragonhorseboy>hey
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20:14<PeterT>fonsin
20:14<PeterT>damn it!
20:14<dragonhorseboy>:p
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21:20<PeterT>lol: http://www.joeydevilla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/howfanboysseeoperatingsystems.jpg
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21:56<PeterT>Generating code, my least favorite part
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22:55<sparr>Are there any other servers running custom interesting competition mods like Ex's?
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---Logclosed Thu Jan 14 00:00:08 2010