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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-02-02

---Logopened Tue Feb 02 00:00:15 2010
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01:37<Terkhen>good morning
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03:09<planetmaker>DaleStan, thanks. For now there's not directly an additional page which is needed afaik. Though at least OpenTTD's source code suggests that there are already reserved features 0D and 0E. Not sure whether it might make sense to add dummy pages for them already. Maybe airports as it's being worked upon actively
03:10<planetmaker>and good morning #openttd :-)
03:11<planetmaker>peter1138, I guess DaleStan is right about the texts strings for rail types: StringIDs are translatable via action 04, strings in action0 are not.
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03:30<@peter1138>planetmaker, you guess? what?
03:30<@peter1138>04:26 < DaleStan> peter1138: Can we get TextIDs in action 0 instead of strings, please?
03:31<@peter1138>?
03:31<planetmaker>replacing propertiess 09, 0000AAA, 0B, 0CCC with W aas stringID
03:31<@peter1138>oh
03:31<planetmaker>sorry keyboard failure here.
03:32<@peter1138>but they are W
03:32<@peter1138>not my fault you wrote the spec wrong
03:32<planetmaker>oh. Then I got it wrong ;-)
03:32<planetmaker>tralalala. Sorry
03:33<planetmaker>DaleStan, don't worry, they ARE stringIDs. I just cannot read source code properlyyyy
03:33<planetmaker>:S
03:33<planetmaker>wth is happening with my keyboard? :-(
03:34<@peter1138>you have a realtime app misbehaving?
03:34<@peter1138>(pulseaudio?)
03:34<planetmaker>I should not... but...
03:34<@peter1138>i had that with lmms' "jack fixes"
03:35<@peter1138>totally broken code ran a spinlock in RT code...
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03:39<planetmaker>peter1138, would you actually rather write "rail type" or "railtype"?
03:39<@peter1138>*shrug*
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03:44<Diablo-D3>peter1138: people simply shouldnt be allowed to write RT code
03:45<@peter1138>not bad RT code, anyway
03:45<Diablo-D3>theres nothing like lint for RT code
03:45<Diablo-D3>actually, maybe RTgrind would be a better idea
03:45<@peter1138>there are some tools that check for common problems at runtime
03:45<@peter1138>but...
03:46<@peter1138>a spinlock in RT? bwahaha
03:46<Diablo-D3>well, RT in general is a bad idea
03:46<planetmaker>Diablo-D3, I know quite a few occasions where RT code is quite needed.
03:46<@peter1138>it's audio code, you need RT or high latency
03:46<planetmaker>But not on a desktop PC
03:46<Diablo-D3>sanely written scheds combined with priority boosting fix this
03:46<planetmaker>in an office
03:47<Diablo-D3>peter1138: thats not true
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03:47<@peter1138>sure, you're the expert on everything, i know.
03:47<Diablo-D3>using audio hardware that isnt absolute shit has a much larger impact on audio problems
03:47<@peter1138>no, that's a driver issue
03:48<Diablo-D3>no, most hardware cant use more than 2 periods.
03:48<@peter1138>ah, so your vote is for higher latency
03:49<Diablo-D3>no, shorter periods with more periods.
03:49<@peter1138>my crappy intel hdas can cope
03:49<Diablo-D3>half the period length but double periods amazingly fixes a lot of underun problems
03:50<Diablo-D3>peter1138: btw
03:50<Diablo-D3>try the -rt2 patches for the kernel
03:50<Diablo-D3>they largely unfucked the most retarded shit in the kernel
03:51<planetmaker>sure, I go and mess with the kernel in production systems...
03:51<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: -rt2 is going to be moved into mainline at some point
03:51<Noldo>planetmaker: in production systems you just cope with it :)
03:51<Diablo-D3>probably .35 or .36
03:51<planetmaker>so?
03:51<Diablo-D3>so if you're not upgrading software to fix bugs, thats your own problem ;)
03:52<@peter1138>you still need RT, and therefore RT-safe code
03:52<planetmaker>ah, sure. But you obviously don't know the difference between a test system and a production system
03:52<@peter1138>planetmaker, sure he does, Diablo-D3 knows everything
03:52<Diablo-D3>production != never ever changes
03:53<Diablo-D3>peter1138: -rt2 got rid of the big lock, and interrupts dont murder performance anymore
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03:54<Diablo-D3>for example, on envy24 soundcards, use the shortest period length with a lot of periods
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03:54<Diablo-D3>your sound wont skip (for non-complex values of sound), your sound app will use 100% of the cpu time (where it may have used less than 1% before), and your entire system will slow to a crawl
03:55<Diablo-D3>but your sound wont skip no matter how hard you try.
03:55<Diablo-D3>this is due to an unfortunate kernel issue.
03:56<Diablo-D3>-rt2 it will still consume a large amount of cpu time, but the rest of your system continues to function fine
03:56<@peter1138>right, the reason not to use tiny periods is the system chokes on the interrupts
03:57<@peter1138>so you can get less done
03:57<@peter1138>compromises, heh
04:00<Diablo-D3>peter1138: yes, but that was at 128 periods and less than 1ms period length
04:00<Diablo-D3>Im not actually saying go do that
04:00<@peter1138>no, that's pretty useless
04:01<Diablo-D3>Im just saying the linux kernel sucks and trying to slap RT onto a bad sched design will make it worse
04:01<@peter1138>and still high latency
04:01<Diablo-D3>-rt2 has removed most of the reason to use RT
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04:01<Diablo-D3>and it does provide an actual working RT prio.
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04:02<planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=47032 <-- I guess Pikkas question would be nice, if they were answered in the newgrf wiki straight away :-)
04:03<planetmaker>I especially wondered also about the meaning of property 0D
04:03<@peter1138>planetmaker, http://wiki.openttd.org/Peter1138/Railtypes
04:04<Diablo-D3>btw, there is still a slightly annoying problem in openttd
04:04<Diablo-D3>tracks at an angle cant go up/down hillsides at an angle
04:05<planetmaker>peter1138, so I can assume that that wiki page is correct?
04:06<@peter1138>yes, although the action 3/2/1 stuff isn't in yes, and the action 3 layout documentation is not complete
04:06<@peter1138>oh
04:06<@peter1138>except property 51
04:06<@peter1138>er, 15
04:06<@peter1138>Hmm
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04:08<planetmaker>ok, then I might adopt the newgrf wiki later today.
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04:14<@peter1138>s/yes,/yet,/
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04:21<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: make up your mind .. in or out :p
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04:49<Eddi|zuHause>hm...
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand it
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05:15<planetmaker>ah, mb acid as usual. Criticism without being constructive.
05:15<Noldo>where?
05:15<planetmaker>forums
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05:17<planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=47032
05:19<TrueBrain>OWH NO! You didn't follow the rules! NOW YOU AHVE TO PAY! MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
05:19*TrueBrain hugs planetmaker
05:19<Noldo>thanks
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05:19<planetmaker>:-)
05:19<@peter1138>most of the missing information has been on the ottd wiki page for ages, mind you ;p
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05:20<planetmaker>yes. I know (now). Despite it's IMO quite obvious that that wiki page is kinda WIP...
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05:27<@peter1138>gah, ttdpatch's wiki software is crap
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06:21<@peter1138>hm
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06:34<Diablo-D3>OKAY
06:34<Diablo-D3>NO MORE GODDAMNED OPENTTD
06:34<Diablo-D3>and now Im going to bed
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>good midday ;)
06:37<@peter1138>hah
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06:48<Eddi|zuHause>random idea: the steepness of slopes should be dependent on the height...
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. from level 1 to level 2, it should be 3%, but from level 10 to level 11 it should be 8%
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06:49<planetmaker>why would you want that?
06:50<planetmaker>That's anything but intuitive - nor does it add to the game. Or can you clearify the reasons why it seems to you a good idea?
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: slopes in flat land are often part of junctions, etc. but slopes in the hills are to simulate hilly landscape
06:51<Ammler>you could "simulate" that by using 2 slopes in a row
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>so to climb a bridge ramp in a station is often less problematic than climbing an uphill slope
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: yes, but you quickly run out of slopes that way
06:51<@peter1138>win 22
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm not confident that the "more height levels" patch gets anywhere near trunk...
06:53<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, ok, but then a junction in the highlands would have different slopes from one near the coast
06:53<planetmaker>Doesn't sound intuitive
06:54<planetmaker>Then rather a two slopes in a row are considered steeper.
06:54<devilsadvocate>what does it mean when it says 'autorenew failed : fixed consist" ?
06:54<planetmaker>But... I wouldn't like it either. It's a hidden feature.
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>devilsadvocate: means that the newgrf is too complicated for autoreplace to figure out
06:55<devilsadvocate>Eddi|zuHause, but i havent set a auto replace on this :\
06:55*devilsadvocate checks if he did it my accident
06:55<@Rubidium>then maybe it's autorenew
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>same difference ;)
06:56<devilsadvocate>oops. my bad
06:56<devilsadvocate>but autorenew shouldnt have the problem, right? its just making a copy
06:56<devilsadvocate>as long as the stuff is still available, of course
06:57<@Rubidium>devilsadvocate: then you haven't seen the world of subcargoes yet
06:57<devilsadvocate>anyway, now that my maglevs will stop blocking every track they can find trying to get to a cargo...
06:57<@Rubidium>and wagons of one subcargo type can attach to an engine and not another subcargo type
06:57<devilsadvocate>Rubidium, but autorenew is just _copying_ what i already did
06:58<devilsadvocate>which by definition should work
06:58<devilsadvocate>i've been massaging autoreplace to work by grouping trains by cargo and issuing replace orders per group
06:59<@Rubidium>devilsadvocate: no, it's not copying
06:59<@Rubidium>as I said: subcargos are a bitch
06:59<devilsadvocate>:(
06:59<@Rubidium>e.g. you can define a subcargo to be only valid from 1920-1940
07:00<devilsadvocate>ah
07:00<@Rubidium>and define for an engine to only allow wagons with that subcargo
07:00<devilsadvocate>i havent messed with temporal cargoes yet
07:00<@Rubidium>now on autorenew the wagons get renewed, but they get another subcargo type and as such can't be attached to the engine
07:01<@Rubidium>or vice versa where the engine's subcargo type isn't available anymore and another subcargo (usually the default) is taken and it can't attach the wagons anymore
07:02<devilsadvocate>hm
07:02<@Rubidium>anyhow, if you don't use NewGRFs that mess with subcargos or deprecation of wagons it works as if the vehicle is copied, so that might give you the idea
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07:03<devilsadvocate>yeah, i can see how that can mess with things... i assumed cargoes are invariant and wagons always accept the same set of cargoes
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07:05<Eddi|zuHause>boy are you naive and innocent :p
07:05<@Rubidium>it's all mb's fault :)
07:05<@Rubidium>or whoever thought it would be useful to deprecate subcargoes
07:06<@Rubidium>or make attachment of wagons depend on subcargoes
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>the irony, he always complains that allowing multiple vehicle sets is a misfeature, but really the majority of misfeatures that are incompatible with this are his own creations ;)
07:07<@Rubidium>yeah, it's totally real to mix dbset vehicles with dutch trains
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07:12<planetmaker>well. The most annoying thing is not complaining, but the complete lack of what actually is being complained about in detail, but giving murky hints that somewhere somehow one somewhat burried pages one might find already a half-sentence what he thinks might be better
07:14<@Rubidium>e.g. the for the NS ICL and ICK wagons should work perfectly fine for the DB
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07:15<@peter1138>planetmaker, i think he expects us to know what is wrong, because obviously he follows the spec and therefore it should be obvious
07:16<@Rubidium>especially the: "my vapourware NewGRF doesn't work" kind of reports are very useful
07:17<planetmaker>the latter - as long as they're valid reports - are, well, interesting, but not the worst. But then, I don't have to deal with that ;-)
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07:17<planetmaker>So I better don't judge ;-)
07:18<@Rubidium>just an example of the 'liveries' the ICL wagon run in the NL: http://www.arthurstreinenpagina.nl/Ander%20materieel/Rijtuigen/Intercity%20Lease/Intercity%20Lease/Intercity%20Lease,%20Wit%20met%20rood,%20blauw%20met%20wit%20en%20geel%20met%20blauw.html
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>what's the second engine used for?
07:20<@Rubidium>I guess as cabs (they have to change direction quite often)
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07:21<@Rubidium>and the NS has stopped shunting trains 'in-service' a few years ago
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07:22<Eddi|zuHause>and i'd presume a german cab wouldn't be compatible with the dutch engine ;)
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't seen a train without cab in a decade...
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07:24<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: actually, the German IC Amsterdam - Berlin doesn't have an engine/cab at the end; you can watch through the window in the door at the passed tracks
07:24<@Rubidium>and in Bad Bentheim they only change the engine
07:24<@peter1138>i only ever see DMUs
07:24<planetmaker>Do they really change the engine still?
07:25<@Rubidium>planetmaker: yes
07:25<planetmaker>crazy
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>i thought all new engines are dual-system by now
07:27<@Rubidium>but the engines (in the NL) aren't that new
07:28<@Rubidium>early 1980s
07:28<@Rubidium>and a slightly newer model from the early 1990s
07:28<thingwath>Dual-system engine is not that new concept :)
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>thingwath: not new, but expensive and rare...
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>hm... something screwed up badly...
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>i moved a directory from A to B, suddenly it reports errors about "cannot rename XYZ", and after i hit "skip", it just deleted the old files without creating the new ones...
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07:36*peter1138 ponders documenting railtype act3/2/1 a bit more ;P
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07:56<devilsadvocate>they change the engines on all indian trains
08:01<planetmaker>peter1138, good motion ;-)
08:01<planetmaker>or notion?
08:01<planetmaker>whatever.
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08:45<planetmaker>peter1138, re railtypes: where is rail toolbar used (there where the track icons are). But where is main menu then? (prop. 09 vs. 0A)
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09:16<@Belugas>hello
09:18<Ammler>bon jour
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09:23<@peter1138>planetmaker?
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09:25<@Belugas>planet maker
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09:37<planetmaker>peter1138, my question was basically where exactly the main menu string is used ingame
09:37<+glx>in dropdown ?
09:37<planetmaker>or what the difference to the rail type name is :-)
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09:39<@peter1138>i suggest a grep ;p
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09:46<SpComb>is making .deb builds really worth it?
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09:48<blathijs>SpComb: In what context?
09:49<SpComb>OpenTTD
09:49<SpComb>do you have a do a million different .deb's on different debian/ubuntu versions for it to be worth the effort?
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09:49<SpComb>(that is, patched/custom versions of OpenTTD)
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09:52<@peter1138>heh, mb has a new definition of documented
09:52<planetmaker>what way? or where?
09:52<@Rubidium>when he knows it (or thinks he knows it) it's documented?
09:53<TrueBrain>Rubidium goes home with the price
09:53<planetmaker>well. That's the old one :-P
09:53<TrueBrain>when it is implemented in TTDp! :p
09:54<@Rubidium>when it's used in mb's vapourware
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09:56<@Rubidium>SpComb: if you want 'support' for Ubuntu non-LTS releases, then yes you need a lot
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09:57<@peter1138>well, the interaction between train properties 05 and 19 wasn't mentioned at all.
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10:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm... if i'm not sending back this computer soon, i'll be deaf...
10:03<planetmaker>don't shout and cry that loud then, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>you're not sitting next to this computer :p
10:03<planetmaker>luckily, I guess.
10:04<planetmaker>We once had in our office an SGI Onyx
10:04<planetmaker>It's the same noise level as a vacuum cleaner
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>but i just noticed that the DVD drive can read some DVDs that my old drive can't, so i started a rescue session...
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>and now i'm shuffling around data from one external drive to another, to sort things properly
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10:22<luckz>debian should just have a ttd-manager app (script) that grabs a random nightly build (or release one) and puts all the files in all the right places :R
10:23<SpComb>unlikely to see that ever happen
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10:23<SpComb>keep in mind that it's debian that disabled the automatic updates in, say, firefox
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10:24<Ammler>SpComb: quite resonable or will you like to run FF as root?
10:24<SpComb>well, also for their stable release
10:24<Ammler>I guess, every distro disabled that
10:32<planetmaker>uhm... Ammler ? SuSE updates that also all automatically. But, of course, I have to confirm via root password
10:32<planetmaker>so... that'd be fine
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10:33<Ammler>ah, I thought, he means the automatic update of FF itself, which it does on Windows for example.
10:33<SpComb>I do, but I'm only cursorily familiar
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11:45<@peter1138>hmm, no doubt they'll want me to remove root's account too :p
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11:57<SpComb>peter1138: what about the toor account?
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12:29<@peter1138>quite
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13:29<Wolf01>hello
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r18985 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: basque - 1 changes by Thadah
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hebrew - 33 changes by dnd_man
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 1 changes by BlinK_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: swedish - 8 changes by Chrill
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 4 changes by nglekhoi
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14:23<Zuu>@seen Yexo
14:23<@DorpsGek>Zuu: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 19 hours, 33 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <Yexo> but it's still getting late :p
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14:30<Zuu>r18803 - "make building (long) roads wark like building rail;... " is most likely the revision that has broken CluelessPlus. Now AIRoad.BuildRoad does not always fail when two tiles can not be connected.
14:31<Zuu>That is the only reason I can find for the bug reports on CluelessPlus that I have been able to confirm on the later nightlies.
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14:34<Zuu>For cases when the end and start tile are adjacent this will be fairly easy to change in the AI, but for long distance building this could be more problematic as building from both ends could still fail if there is an obstacle in the middle. Meaning that you will have to loop over all road stretches that you have built and check that the road is connected.
14:34<frosch123>i guess you do not mean the ai bug introduced by that revision which was fixed quite a long, but you expect the command to fail if not the whole road could be build, right?
14:35<frosch123>oh, i guess it does not leave holes in the middle, but just stops
14:35<Zuu>I expect that the command should still fail if the whole road could be built.
14:35<Zuu>It just stops, but the work around to try from both ends that work on tiles next to each other will not work on longer distances as you could get a gap.
14:35<frosch123>yeah, might be easier for ais
14:36<frosch123>but then the same should apply to rails
14:36<Terkhen>the change was building up to the first obstacle instead of not building at all
14:36<Zuu>Perhaps in 0.7. edition of the API maintain backward compability and in newer you can introduce an enum.
14:37<Zuu>Terkhen: Unless I've missed something the change was also that the construction succeds even if the whole stretch is not finished.
14:37<Terkhen>exactly
14:37<frosch123>hehe, yes, what is useful for humans is not necessarily useful for ais :)
14:37<Zuu>Thats what breaking the backward compability for AIs.
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14:38<Terkhen>I'll check how this is done for rails
14:39<Zuu>As long as you keep the backward compability in the 0.7 backward compability layer of the API. In the 1.0 edition you can change the behavior but then please document it as well. :-)
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14:42<Zuu>There is a backwards compability layer which I think is made in squirrel code that makes the trunk API behaviour as the 0.7 API. Also there is a document that is included in the Doxygen that documents the changes between the API versions.
14:42<Zuu>In info.nut an AI specifies which version of the API it wants.
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14:44<PeterT>Hi All
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14:45<Zuu>Hi PeterT, time for coffee brake? ;-)
14:45<PeterT>:-)
14:45<Zuu>break* (i think)
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14:46<Zuu>Though coffee^-1 is maybe a brake :-p
14:46<PeterT>lol
14:51<Alberth>Zuu: yes, 'brake' is that thing in a car that makes it stop, 'break' is stop doing what you do, and relax for a while.
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14:57<Zuu>hmm the TC_<colour>s, are they the company colours?
14:57<Zuu>Could be the reason why TC_BLUE is darker than TC_BLACK. :-)
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15:00<__ln__>http://www.prisonplanet.com/inverted-body-scanner-image-shows-naked-body-in-full-living-color.html
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>"brake" is to make it stop, and "break" to make it broken ;)
15:00<Alberth>so coffee break breaks the coffee?
15:03<PeterT>Alberth: More like breaking the time of working to drink cofee
15:03<Alberth>I usually discuss things of work while drinking coffee :)
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15:09<frosch123>Zuu: TC_ are textcolours, company colous are COLOUR_ or so
15:10<frosch123>but of course you could use this great tool http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/advertise.png :p
15:10<frosch123>(i somehow need to get it to the top of most quoted links)
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15:14<PeterT>what? http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/advertise.png
15:16<SmatZ>nice screenshot, http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/advertise.png
15:16<frosch123>:p
15:17<frosch123>cheater!
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15:18<PeterT>SmatZ: Were you talking about this one? http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/advertise.png
15:18<PeterT>or this one? http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/advertise.png
15:18<SmatZ>PeterT: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/advertise.png this one
15:19<PeterT>oh, ok, this one http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/advertise.png
15:19<SmatZ>frosch123: what's so special about that link?
15:19<frosch123>don't make it get added to dorpsgek
15:19<SmatZ>maybe because of the word "advertise"?
15:19<frosch123>http://alpha.visl.sdu.dk/~tino/pisg/OFTC/openttd.html
15:19<TinoDidriksen>Huh?
15:19<TinoDidriksen>Oh
15:20<frosch123>"Most referenced URLs"
15:20<PeterT>frosch123: http://electricpotential.net/ircstats/openttd2.html
15:20<TinoDidriksen>Right...maybe I should disable my highlight for URLs with my name in...
15:20<frosch123>someone highlights on tin* :)
15:20<SmatZ>:D
15:21<PeterT>I'm number 4 on that list? wow.
15:21<PeterT>SmatZ: Are you aware there is a SmatZ_?
15:22<SmatZ>PeterT: yes, it's me
15:22<PeterT>You use two different clients?
15:22-!-SmatZ_ [~smatz@a40-prg1-22-216.static.adsl.vol.cz] has joined #openttd
15:22<PeterT>just to join #oftc and #gcc?
15:22*SmatZ_ slaps PeterT
15:22<PeterT>and #openttd now
15:22-!-SmatZ_ [~smatz@a40-prg1-22-216.static.adsl.vol.cz] has left #openttd [Konversation terminated!]
15:22<SmatZ>yes
15:22<SmatZ>I don't want to connect via BNC there
15:22<SmatZ>to reduce BNC traffic
15:22<PeterT>ok
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: at least on those stats the "list of referenced nicks" is not spoiled by kiddies who name themselves "I" or "You" yet...
15:24<Faux>It's trivial to add things like that to the ignore list.
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>Faux: if it's so trivial, why do i see that so often?
15:25<Faux>'cos it requires more than installing the debian package and pointing it at a folder?
15:25*Faux has 178 directives of pisg config.
15:25<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: in both cases you are the top spammer
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>i know ;)
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>my lines tend to be longer than the others'
15:26<SmatZ>@seen ChorizoGrueso
15:26<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: ChorizoGrueso was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 19 hours, 27 minutes, and 43 seconds ago: <ChorizoGrueso> ns done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum
15:26<SmatZ>oh, a spammer
15:27<+glx>[21:26:42] <DorpsGek> Error: I cowardly refuse to kickban myself.
15:27<+glx>lol
15:27<SmatZ>hehe
15:28<SmatZ>frosch123: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/advertise.png will be on the not next time that page is updated
15:28<frosch123>err, can you please rephrase :)
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>it's funny, you can play "spot the american" in the top 25 ;)
15:29<SmatZ>frosch123: s/not/top
15:29<SmatZ>;)
15:29<frosch123>hehe :)
15:29<SmatZ>that page = stats page
15:30<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: Eddi|zuHause spoke a total of 41721 words!
15:30<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the brazilian-coloured one?
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: i can read, thank you :p
15:31<PeterT> PeterT 1991 pwnt
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i thought roboboy was australian?
15:32<frosch123>no idea, never talked with him
15:32<PeterT>He is
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's hard to get in touch with australians when both have a regular sleep pattern :p
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15:36<andythenorth>hi hi
15:36<PeterT>andythenorth: I would love to have RoadTypes
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>hello, man from the north
15:36<PeterT>Dirt road, especially
15:36<PeterT>also, hello and
15:36<PeterT>also, hello andythenorth
15:36<andythenorth>PeterT: why don't you patch for it?
15:37<Zuu>frosch123: Ok, then it was that the Gfx functions maybe want the colours in a different format then.
15:37<PeterT>I don't know C++
15:37<PeterT>that's peter1138's place
15:37<andythenorth>neither did anyone else before they learnt it
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: fwiw, i believe in a few months i can be dual top "spammer" in the long term stats as well ;)
15:37<andythenorth>hands up if you got born knowing C++
15:38<andythenorth>PeterT: "I don't know" is such a crap excuse :D
15:38<andythenorth>I don't know nfo, but I'm bloody learning it
15:38<PeterT>Also, did you self-censor "bl**dy" on the forums?
15:38<PeterT>what for?
15:39<andythenorth>children read the forums. I can uncensor if censoring offends
15:39-!-Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd
15:39<PeterT>Censoring does offend
15:39<Eoin>TT-F is 13+ though
15:40<Zuu>Most offending is when they blur the mouth of people in TV series and not just beep out the sound.
15:41<frosch123>Zuu: which Gfx function do you want to use?
15:41<Zuu>Because then you can't bypass the beep by lip reading it instead. :-)
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>i, as a foreign-language-speaker, hate when they beep out stuff in american tv shows
15:42<PeterT>Why?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>you loose a lot of context that way...
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: native speakers can easily guess the beeped out content, but foreign language speakers often do not have that ability
15:44<Zuu>frosch123: GfxFillRect
15:44<SmatZ>does it really matter which bad word was beeped out?
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: yes.
15:45<frosch123>Zuu: that one takes a palette index directly, there is no enum for those
15:45<@peter1138>BEEP you i won't do what you tell me
15:45<SmatZ>hehe
15:45<frosch123>take a look at table/palettes.h
15:46<Zuu>frosch123: Ok
15:47*andythenorth uncensored the bloody censoring
15:47<Zuu>I guess the problem is that the different colour types are typecompatible with eachother in OpenTTD, so the compiler won't complain.
15:47<PeterT>You didn't uncensor it, you just changed the word
15:47<Zuu>Or put it in other words that I didn't read the function documentation clear enough. ;-)
15:47<PeterT>I was thinking more Bl**dy -> Bloody
15:48*frosch123 reports the post for censoring
15:48<frosch123>:p
15:48<PeterT>not Bl**dy -> Silly
15:48<PeterT>:-P
15:48<andythenorth>PeterT: if you spent less time on this you'd have more time to learn C++
15:48*andythenorth wonders if curry is cooked yet
15:48*andythenorth finds the answer is yes
15:49<Zuu>And when you become a coder by heart you'll know that the details are important. (as you just saw ;-) )
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>i only know haskell curry
15:50<andythenorth>is there any way to add a C++ test as a prerequisite to joining #openttd?
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>chanmode +k? :)
15:50<PeterT>/mode +k C++
15:50<andythenorth>I'd have to learn C++ mind
15:51<andythenorth>or go do something else instead of this
15:51*andythenorth wanders away to eat curry
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15:51<Eddi|zuHause>go, irc only wastes your time anyway :p
15:52<PeterT>irc is educational
15:52<PeterT>besides, I can read C++ well
15:52<Bluelight>Is there a IRC channel for the game Arcanum?
15:52<PeterT>if (SaveOrLoad(filename, SL_SAVE, SAVE_DIR) != SL_OK) {
15:52<PeterT> IConsolePrint(CC_ERROR, "Saving map failed");
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>Bluelight: why would we know that?
15:53<Bluelight>Dunno, lol
15:53<PeterT>means "if the filename, SL_SAVE is not equal to SL_OK, then output in the console "Saving map Failed""
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: no, it does not
15:53<PeterT>what does it mean?
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: it means "run the function SaveOrLoad, and if that returns something other than SL_OK, print an error message"
15:54<Zuu>Filename, SL_SAVE, SAVE_DIR are all three arguments to the function SaveOrLoad.
15:54<Zuu>filename*
15:54<frosch123>night
15:55-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7a78.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:55<@Rubidium>PeterT: then what does http://paste.openttd.org/221193 do? (without trying to compile it)
15:57<PeterT>DoSomething && print "%d"
15:57<PeterT>then /t
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15:59<Zuu>PeterT, not really. There are several conditions in there as well as recrusive calls.
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>it's something recursive...
16:00<Zuu>Rubidium: Shouldn't the _ function have a defined return type?
16:00<@Rubidium>Zuu: for C++ yeah, for C it compiles :)
16:00<Zuu>So in C int is implicit?
16:00<@Rubidium>yeah, apparantly
16:01<Zuu>I've never done C.
16:02<@Rubidium>but yes, it's recursive
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>i have a feeling it could be a sieve of erathostenes
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>or something with primes
16:06<@Rubidium>it doesn't do what it's supposed to do anyway :)
16:06<@Rubidium>as always: wikipedia isn't a reliable source :)
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>_____ is some kind of stepwidth
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>http://paste.openttd.org/221194 <-- slightly rewritten (only whitespace and variable renaming)
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>first step is setting b = b+n*d until b > a*d
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>so for the given input it's x(100,100,0,1)
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>err, x(100,101,0,1)
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>even worse
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>x(100,201,0,1)
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>still not right
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>x(100,200,0,1)
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>man, this is hard ;)
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>the second step is skipped, because 200%100=0
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>third and fourth step is skipped, too
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>and b<a^2, so it increases b again
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>x(100,201,0,1)
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>now 201%100 = 1, so it sets c to that value
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>x(100,202,1,1)
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16:18<Eddi|zuHause>and repeats that, until b%a==0 again
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>so it's now x(100,300,99,1)
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>could it be that it never ever prints anything, because when it gets to the third case, b%a is always 0?
16:21<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: just compile it with gcc :)
16:21<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: the Python challenge seems something for you: http://www.pythonchallenge.com/
16:22<andythenorth>uh oh. I get busted at about #3 in the python challenge :(
16:22<Zuu>Or projecteuler.net where you can choose whatever language you want. :-)
16:22<andythenorth>lame
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: well, that kinda supports my initial thought ;)
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16:23<Eddi|zuHause>only it's printing wrong numbers
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16:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: terkhen * r18986 /trunk/src/ (ai/api/ai_road.cpp ai/api/ai_road.hpp road_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r18803): Make building long roads fail for AIs if there is an obstacle in the way.
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16:26<Zuu>Terkhen: So the road will still be built up to the obstacle but the return value will be false?
16:28<Zuu>Could possible still break road building code for some AI.
16:28<Terkhen>the road will not be built at all
16:28<Zuu>Okay, good news :-)
16:28<Terkhen>should be identical to old behaviour :)
16:29<Zuu>I just read through the changeset on vcs.openttd.org, didn't actually read the whole context of those changes.
16:30<Zuu>Thank you for the fix.
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16:31<Terkhen>thank you for the report, let me know if there are further problems :)
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i'm confused... the parameter c can never be set to anything other than 0
16:33<Zuu>Terkhen, in the AI API docs you could add that if it fails, it will not build anything at all. Since it differs from the player behaviour.
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16:34<Zuu>New AI authors might get confused otherwise.
16:34<Zuu>Though, the road building is still a bit different for AIs already.
16:34<SmatZ>Zuu: it's documented, see the diff
16:34<SmatZ>if that's what you had in mind
16:36<Zuu>Only building up to the obscale and returning fales could be seen as failing?
16:36<Zuu>false*
16:36<SmatZ>ok :)
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>so it always increases b by step d, and prints something whenever b = n*(a+1)
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>and occasionally it increases d
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>under a really obscure condition
16:41<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: obscurity is bliss? :)
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16:59<Wolf01>'night
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17:08<andythenorth>Rubidium: dunno if I was clear on the problem with FS 3585 http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3585
17:09<andythenorth>problem is not industry unreachable, problem is it's impossible to build road / rail routs
17:09<andythenorth>routes /s
17:09<andythenorth>fix might be the same though. Or I should deal with it in nfo :o
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>i can't figure out the condition when it increases d, but it prints n whenever b=n*(a+1) and bails when reaching b=a^2
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>parameter c is useless, and a is constant
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>and b is always increased by d in each iteration
17:12*andythenorth ponders checking distance to nearest of all 32 other industry types when building an industry
17:12*andythenorth is glad there is templating
17:13*andythenorth wonders about tying the game up in some horrible loop when trying to build an industry
17:13<andythenorth>actually, probably 58 other industry types. I did beer counting above.
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17:27<Shapeshifter>Hi there. I just started playing and I don't understand why sometimes, the lorry stations I build close to some place don't want to give me the goods. For example this: http://stuff.moritzg.ch/ttdwtf.png
17:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: terkhen * r18987 /trunk/src/ (ai/api/ai_rail.cpp ai/api/ai_rail.hpp rail_cmd.cpp): -Fix: [NoAI] Make building long rails fail for AIs if there is an obstacle in the way.
17:27<Shapeshifter>when building the lorry station, it said that it will give wood, but after placing it, it gives nothing.
17:27<PeterT>umm....
17:27<Eoin>it dosent give you wood until you send vehicles to collect wood
17:27<PeterT>Terkhen?
17:27<Shapeshifter>Eoin: mh ^^
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17:28<Terkhen>PeterT: yes?
17:28<PeterT>those commits sound the same
17:28<Shapeshifter>I see... And, about the ratings. I read the wiki and things, but it seems very complicated with all the points. What's really important to get good ratings? little "waiting" at the stations, and?
17:29<Terkhen>check again :)
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17:30<PeterT>Make building long roads fail for AIs if there is an obstacle in the way.
17:30<PeterT>Make building long rails fail for AIs if there is an obstacle in the way.
17:30<TrueBrain>Terkhen: and here I was proud I removed all 'special' AI code :p And here you reintroduce them :p :) Still, a very nice addition :)
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>"road" and "rail" look different to me ;)
17:31<TrueBrain>very nice, in fact :)
17:31<PeterT>ahh
17:31<Terkhen>thanks :)
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17:33<Eddi|zuHause>what if that was a per-player setting and each player/AI can do it as he prefers?
17:33<Zuu>Terkhen: I don't want to be a show stopper, but did the AIRail always behave like that before or was there also a 'bug' with the AI rail construction?
17:34<Zuu>I have never used AIRail myself so I don't know.
17:34<Yexo>Zuu: if you build a long rail with AIRail it also build up to the first obstable (and return success)
17:34<Terkhen>yes, it always behaved like that
17:34<Yexo>now it behaves like road
17:35<Zuu>Doesn't that break Admiral AI, ChooChoo etc?
17:35<Yexo>I don't think any currnent AI builds multiple rail tracks at once
17:35<Zuu>Or is this only for 1.0 version of the API?
17:35<Yexo>no, it's for all versions of the API
17:36<Zuu>Okay.
17:36<Yexo>but it won't break AIs
17:36<Yexo>if they relied on the old behavior they would have to check if the complete rail was build in case of success, that'll still work
17:36<Yexo>if it returned failure no part was build, just like now
17:36<Zuu>Makes sense.
17:36<Yexo>it could only break AIs if they rely on the current behavior but got the old behavior
17:37<TrueBrain>I am suprised it was never noticed in the pre-versions :)
17:37<Yexo><Yexo> I don't think any currnent AI builds multiple rail tracks at once <- that's most likely why
17:38<Yexo>and in fact I did notice, but the behavior was inconsistent in the gui too, so I didn't bother
17:38<TrueBrain>true
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17:46<Terkhen>good night
17:46<Zuu>good night Terkhen
17:46-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@156.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...]
17:49*andythenorth ponders Sugar Beet as a temperate / arctic version of Sugar Cane
17:50<andythenorth>FIRS = Finally I'll Release Something :(
17:50<Eoin>lol
17:50<Shapeshifter>mh. I have huge traffic jams on the road near an oil/powerplant lorry station. http://stuff.moritzg.ch/ttdjam.png how can I get rid of it? I've built two more stations and told trucks to go there but they don't seem to listen.
17:51<Eoin>use drive-thru
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: sounds sensible
17:51<Shapeshifter>Eoin: won't the first truck stop at the first drive through and block the others anyway?
17:51<Zuu>Build them in parallell.
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: random idea, more climate-specific industries, and in the other climates you have ports that simulate importing outer-climate cargos
17:52<Eoin>what Zuu beat me to
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17:52<Yexo>Shapeshifter: how long have you waited after building the 2 new stops?
17:52<Zuu>If you use 1.0 beta or a recent nightly and standard vehicles, then they can stop two at each side.
17:52<Yexo>maybe you should give it some more time
17:52<Shapeshifter>Yexo: 10 minutes or so
17:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: sounds like RT3
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>i have never played RT3
17:52-!-ptr_ [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd
17:52<Yexo>Shapeshifter: oh, can you upload the savegame somewhere?
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and didn't you say FIRS is heavily inspired by RT3 anyway? ;)
17:53<andythenorth>yup
17:53<andythenorth>I'm thinking of ports. Someone wrote somewhere on the forums 'no off-the-map transport' and I've been trying to stick to that. but screw it
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>ports might be a good addition to the game, if done right
17:54<Zuu>andythenorth: so they will "trade" some cargo into something else?
17:54<andythenorth>maybe
17:54<andythenorth>import-export?
17:55<andythenorth>sure that isn't against the spirit of the game??
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think import and export should be linked
17:55<Zuu>And if you find two ports that are the opposite type then you could have a closed loop between those. :-)
17:55<andythenorth>umm
17:55<andythenorth>yse
17:55<andythenorth>yes
17:55<andythenorth>anyway time for bed :|
17:55<Shapeshifter>Yexo: nah I quit it, sorry. I'll try again on a bigger map, this was a small test anyway ;)
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: no, more like: in temperate, all ports import primary cargos like oil, copper, bauxit
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>and export goods and supplies
17:56<andythenorth>good night
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>in arctic, they import food and export wood products
17:56-!-KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-215-249.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
17:56<Zuu>Okay, so no fancy NewGRF delay logic :-)
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>in tropic, they export primary goods
17:57<Zuu>Put something in and a month later you get something else back.
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>something along those lines...
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17:58<Zuu>The opposite type port loop was mostly a joke from my side though.
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>so tropic could be low on processing industries in the beginning, only mines and ports
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>if you build up your network, you can found processing industries manually
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>and transport higher goods
17:58<Zuu>Oh, that's intresting.
17:59<Zuu>Then you'd have some use for your money and possibly extended gameplay of building industries.
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>that's putting the current behaviour a step further, where you have to build the wood industry manually
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>in arctic, food might only be produced by the farms during summer, and you have to deliver the ports with goods to get food out of them during the winter, or something
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>in temperate, mines might start to close down after 1950 (or so), and the only way to get more raw materials is through ports
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18:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r18988 /trunk/src/newgrf_industries.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] industry var A5 (=high 8 bits of var A4) returned the high 8 bits of var A2. Same problem for 9B/9A/98
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>why is there an increasing number of non-development posts (like questions/problems/suggestions) in the development forum?
18:30<PeterT>The are about developing?
18:30<Zuu>That has always irritated me as well.
18:30<PeterT>I've contributed to that
18:30<Zuu>Suggestions without any code contribution should go to the suggestions forum.
18:30<PeterT>I really don't think that "Compiling problems with MSVC" belongs in OpenTTD Problems
18:30<PeterT>since I'm not having a problem specifically with OpenTTD
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: no, but "why is my pathfinder behaving this way" definitely does not belong into development
18:31<PeterT>What topic is that?
18:31<Zuu>#2 at the dev forum at the moment.
18:31<Zuu>(after the stickies)
18:32<PeterT>Hmm
18:32<Yexo>not anymore :p
18:32<Zuu>Good work Yexo :-)
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>"Why does the pathfinder behave like this?", "Original v Improved Loading algorithm", "Attachment(s) [REQUEST] plane crash off//on (or reduction)" examples of recent threads that don't belong there
18:32<PeterT>Also, why is "Rail Types" there?
18:33<Yexo>because there is no better place for the Rail Types topic
18:33<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: the [REQUEST] one actually lead to the making of a patch
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: but it's still a suggestion, there's an explicit forum for that
18:33<Yexo>PeterT: so? it didn't belong in the development forum
18:33<Zuu>If all suggestions would be posted in the dev forum because they might become a patch, then it will be even more caotic than it is now.
18:34-!-wolfy [~Wolfenste@dhcp-077-250-089-252.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>and the "Rail Types" thread is discussing a patch that is currently in development
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>only that it does not have the patch attached to it...
18:35<Zuu>Users who do not code shouldn't have a reason to visit that forum other than for reading about new cool features that might or might not end up in trunk at some point in future.
18:36-!-roboboy [7248ce94@webchat.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
18:38<welshdragon>hmm
18:39*welshdragon is trying to update OpenTTD on a dedicated server
18:40<Zuu>Well, people who contribute a lot towards the OpenTTD project are of course welcome in the development forum. I don't want to be harsh against those. But seeing all non-development topics there makes it a mess.
18:44<Zuu>The rail types will need some GUI changes later to help users know the speed limits etc., but let them figure out the spec first. :-)
18:46<Yexo>Zuu: it's true those topics can make a mess of it, but in my opinion it's not that bad currently
18:47<Yexo>the pathfinder topic and the loading algorithm topic where at the wrong place, as was the plane crash topic, but that's only 3 topics on the first page
18:47<Zuu>No, it is not very bad - yet :-)
18:48-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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18:48<Zuu>(and no, I don't plan on makeing lot of bad topics in there ... ;-) )
18:49-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
18:49<PeterT>I've noticed OpenTTD takes longer to load when a new config is placed into the directory
18:49<PeterT>is it just because OpenTTD needs to gather all the data and write to the cfg?
18:50<SpComb>hmm... changeing DAY_LENGTH does affect LA ratings
18:50<Zuu>PeterT: could also depend on the file system you are using how long time it takes to create the file.
18:50<PeterT>I am the file, it just hasn't written anything to it yet
18:50<Diablo-D3>ugh
18:50<Diablo-D3>theres a problem with 2cc
18:50<PeterT>I understand what you mean
18:51<Zuu>By definition that will take some time, but if that is relevant or not I don't know.
18:51<Diablo-D3>how do I tell what trains can carry any kind of car
18:51<SpComb>every time a vehicle is loaded at a station, time_since_load/unload is set to zero... every 185 ticks, it's incremented... every month, the town checks if its stations have time_since_load/unload <= 20
18:51<Yexo><PeterT> is it just because OpenTTD needs to gather all the data and write to the cfg? <- writing to the config file is only done when you close openttd, not when you start it
18:51<PeterT>oh
18:51<Zuu>It could be that it will need to go through the full list of possible locations to search for the cfg file.
18:51<Yexo>SpComb: that's what I suspected, but I didn't care enough to find out
18:52<Zuu>If it finds it early on it will skip the other locations.
18:53<@Rubidium>with daylength being "tested" that "good" for so long it amazes me that even more misbehavings are found
18:53<Zuu>Diablo-D3: On some train sets you can see if an engine is a passenger or freight (or both) engine.
18:53<Zuu>freight only engines will not take passenger cars for example.
18:55<Diablo-D3>Zuu: yeah, but I cant look at anything in the buy window and instantly know
18:55-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:55<Zuu>IIRC there is a label that says if the engine is a freight engine or not as I said before. At least that is how UKRS works.
18:55<PeterT>why are topics like "Project: Economy and Balancing" still stickied? they are obviously dead
18:56<Diablo-D3>Zuu: well, it doesnt seem to be in 2cc
18:56<Zuu>Okay. I didn't really like 2cc so I haven't used it a lot but sticked with UKRS.
18:57<Yexo>PeterT: because having that topic as sticky prevents a new topic for the same thing being opened every week
18:57<Zuu>PeterT: That topic had a post one minute ago or so. Is that dead?
18:57<PeterT>Dead as a project
18:58<Yexo>Zuu: it's "dead" as in "no serious work on it is being done", except a lot of people that keep posting suggestions without reading the rest of the topic
18:58<Zuu>I think people are often too quick at declaring projects as dead.
18:58<@Rubidium>Yexo: yeah, under those explanations the Mac OS X port thread is dead to
18:59<Zuu>This one is more like discussed to death.
18:59<@Rubidium>+o
18:59<Eddi|zuHause><Yexo> the pathfinder topic and the loading algorithm topic where at the wrong place, as was the plane crash topic, but that's only 3 topics on the first page <-- there were a few more, which have already been moved
18:59<Yexo>Rubidium: well, the mac os x port is "dead" currently, so I'd say my definition holds in that case
18:59<Diablo-D3>Zuu: so ukrs clearly states what the train can pull?
19:00<Zuu>It tells you which engines that are freight or pax or both.
19:00<@Rubidium>and for the sake of disargument, all release threads are dead too :)
19:00*Diablo-D3 switches.
19:00<Zuu>Some might be "light freight" which might be that they don't take coal wagons, but I'm unsure on that.
19:00<Yexo>ok, I ment "no work on the project itself" is being done, not "nobody is posting in the topic"
19:01<Zuu>It is still quite deterministic what wagons you can use.
19:01<Zuu>At least from the viewpoint of a player.
19:01<Diablo-D3>2cc has too many engines that are pax only
19:01<Diablo-D3>and its nuts
19:01<Diablo-D3>theres no way to tell just by looking at them
19:01<Diablo-D3>and the 2cc website, although listing everything in it, doesnt list what they do
19:01<Zuu>For an AI, I don't know if I would like UKRS or not, haven't done any rail AI stuff.
19:01<Diablo-D3>so either you're some trainophile, or you're fucked
19:03<Yexo>Diablo-D3: why not simply look at the speed, running/build cost and power?
19:03<Diablo-D3>Yexo: because there are trains that look like pax but have very high power
19:03<Yexo>so? what's the problem if you're using it for pax then?
19:04<Diablo-D3>because Im not
19:04<Diablo-D3>Im trying to pull freight
19:04<Yexo>if you're not a trainophile you wouldn't care
19:04<Yexo>then what's the problem if you're using it to pull freight?
19:04<Diablo-D3>I'd care when I plunk down a million bucks for an engine and it cant pull freight
19:04<Yexo>if it has enough power / tractive effort it can pull freight
19:04<Yexo>if it can't, you can sell it immediatly for the same price
19:05<Diablo-D3>thats retarded
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>you're certain that 2cc does not have a description of the engines in the buy window?
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>i have never used 2cc set
19:06<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: very sure
19:06<SpComb>or perhaps I'm just confusing myself again
19:07<Diablo-D3>theres nothing that indicates what it can pull
19:07<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: with the metro replacement stuff, its easy: everything is pax
19:07<Diablo-D3>but theres pax only trains in the normal train engine set
19:07<Diablo-D3>and its annoying as hell
19:07<Yexo><Diablo-D3> thats retarded, <Diablo-D3> and its annoying as hell <- keep talking like that and you'll be without help in the future
19:08<SpComb>you need to service a station at least every x ticks (3700) for it to have a positive effect on a town's ratings... it's the same 3700 ticks either way, though
19:08<Yexo>I suggest you take down your tone a bit and try to post it in a constructive way
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>and you should probably talk to the 2cc developers instead of us
19:08<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: I dont really care if they fix it or not
19:08<Diablo-D3>2cc isnt part of openttd
19:08-!-Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9CAE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:09<Diablo-D3>so lets see if ukrs is any better
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>UKRS definitely has descriptions a la "heavy freight", "express passenger" etc.
19:09<Yexo><Diablo-D3> Eddi|zuHause: I dont really care if they fix it or not <- then stop complaining about it
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>DBSet predates that feature...
19:10<Diablo-D3>Yexo: if you keep that up I an just put you on ignore.
19:10<Diablo-D3>*can
19:10<Yexo>feel free
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>DBSet has a description which engines are passengers only in the readme, though
19:10<Zuu>Sure, though, arguing like that with a dev isn't really a good idea.
19:11<Diablo-D3>Yexo: and if you must know, Im mentioning it in here because people recommended 2cc
19:11<Diablo-D3>and its also the most downloaded pack in bananas
19:11<Yexo>if people recommend it, it's probably because they like it
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>it's obviously "so well tested" ;)
19:11<Yexo>but which newgrf set you like always comes down to personal preference
19:11<Zuu>The download counts on bananas are since they were last updated. Newly updated files will have lower count than old ones.
19:12<Diablo-D3>Zuu: eww
19:12<Zuu>Not always of course, but as a general rule of thumb. Old unpopular files will still have low download counts of course.
19:12<Yexo>problem is: if the count wasn't reset then if people update they're counted twice (or even more times)
19:13<Diablo-D3>so count all downloads and divide by releases?
19:13<Diablo-D3>or do avg downloads per day?
19:13<Zuu>What about those who only update once a year?
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: whatever you do, it won't be accurate
19:13<Diablo-D3>Zuu: shouldnt effect it
19:13<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: true
19:13<Diablo-D3>we need a stars system.
19:13-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1E713.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:13<Yexo>avg per day still has the problem that people that update are counted multiple times
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: nice idea, start developing it.
19:14<@Rubidium>and stuff that gets frequent updates get screwed
19:14<PeterT>neob has finally slowed down with his posted
19:14<@Rubidium>uhm, don't get screwed :)
19:14<@Rubidium>they get more downloads as people update their version
19:15<Diablo-D3>hey guys, when I sort industries by production output, why are farms always first?
19:15<@Rubidium>e.g. Queue.BinaryHeap's downloads are quite low recently because "everybody" already has it
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but there's a point where that swaps. people don't download nightlies every day
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19:15<Diablo-D3>Rubidium: yeah, but you dont download that, you download it as part of an AI requirement
19:15<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: They don't?
19:16<@Rubidium>it just shows that average download counts are misleading
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>that's why my initial comment was "it'll always be inaccurate"
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>for the celebration of the day: http://www.nichtlustig.de/downloads/lost.jpg
19:17<SpComb>is having a serviced station inside town zone zero really the primary mechanism for growing LA ratings?
19:17<Yexo>having 5 stations in the town is the primary mechanism
19:18<Yexo>where "in the town" is "having the town name in the station name"
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>that's for growing the town
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>not the town rating :p
19:18-!-Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:18<Yexo>oh, right, for growing the town indeed
19:18<Diablo-D3>growing towns are dangerous imo
19:18-!-Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd
19:19<Yexo><SpComb> is having a serviced station inside town zone zero really the primary mechanism for growing LA ratings? <- so the answer to that is yes
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: having a well-served local transport network gets the rating up fairly quickly
19:19-!-Tennel [~Tennel@88.150.10.254] has quit []
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>and it's less destructive than the tree-cheat
19:19<SpComb>yes, each and every station ups the rating by 12
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>imho, the town should forbid chopping trees below a certain rating
19:20<Diablo-D3>hey guys, is there a way to make openttd not put industries near each other?
19:20*SpComb @kick PeterT if he could
19:20<Zuu>SpComb: What does that CTCP PING mean?
19:20<KenjiE20>he ping you too?
19:20-!-PeterT was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [PING]
19:20-!-PeterT [~Peter@c-71-233-211-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
19:20<Yexo>Diablo-D3: have you tried disabling "economy->industries->industries of the same type can be built close to each other" and "allow multiple similar industries per town"?
19:20<__ln__>autojoin
19:21<PeterT>what a crime
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: there are settings for "only one industry per town"
19:21<Diablo-D3>Yexo: both are off.
19:21-!-Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit []
19:21<Yexo>then "only by creating a newgrf"
19:21<SpComb>Zuu: harmless but annoying, there's really no reason to CTCP a channel
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>"luckily" there are spam attacks at freenode, so i have all CTCP on ignore...
19:22<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: even CTCP ACTION? :)
19:22-!-ptr_ [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: Zzzzzz]
19:22<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: You've seen the horrible spam there?
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>if that refers to /me, then no, those are not CTCP
19:22<__ln__>do we know what state PeterT is from?
19:23<SpComb>those are CTCP messages as well
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: guess :p
19:23<SpComb>but perhaps your client classifies them differently
19:23<Zuu>__ln__: Somewhere up north east.
19:23<Zuu>Close to the border.
19:23<PeterT>/whois PeterT
19:23-!-Tennel [~Tennel@88.150.10.254] has joined #openttd
19:23<__ln__>could be maine
19:24<@Rubidium>does 'state hotel' count?
19:24-!-valhalla1w [~valhallas@s55928dd9.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:24<__ln__>sure
19:24<PeterT>/whois PeterT
19:24<__ln__>PeterT: ur repeating urself
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>/kick PeterT
19:24<PeterT>"ur" isn't a word
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>oh, i misread that somehow :p
19:25<PeterT>"~Peter@c-71-233-211-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net"
19:25<Zuu>PeterT: sure "ur" is a word. - In Swedish ;-)
19:25-!-JVassie [~TheExile^@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:25<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: there's a much better way to prevent from oddities from PeterT: /quit
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>Ur is a city in mesopotamia
19:25<@Rubidium>it also helps with your connection problems!
19:25<SmatZ>PeterT: Alt+F4 allowa you to hack into others' accounts!
19:25<SmatZ>*allows
19:26*SpComb attempts to use effect/affect correctly
19:26<Zuu>SmatZ: And the red switch at the back gives you turbo power?
19:26<__ln__>i think dubya's dad has a summer place in maine, so... would that explain some of this stupidity
19:27<SmatZ>Zuu: it works only for PeterT, sadly
19:27<Diablo-D3>__ln__: they do, its in kennebunkport
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>so "MA" stands for "Maine"?
19:27<Diablo-D3>no, ma is mass.
19:27<Diablo-D3>me is maine.
19:27<PeterT>Massechusetts
19:27-!-PeterT [~Peter@c-71-233-211-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Goodbye]
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>aha.
19:28-!-PeterT [~Peter@c-71-233-211-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
19:28<SmatZ>PeterT entered the turbo mode
19:28<PeterT>You lied to me.
19:28<@Rubidium>oh come on... just write it in full: Commonwealth of Massachusetts
19:28<SmatZ>who!?
19:28<Diablo-D3>Rubidium: lol
19:28<__ln__>PeterT: english only. "Massachusetts" is some native american language.
19:28<SpComb>other interesting tidbits: the DC power connector for SMC router/wlan boxes fits into the DC power socket on Buffalo router/wlan boxes... pity that SMC is 9v, Buffalo 5v
19:28<Zuu>SmatZ: Because going switching to 220 in a 110 volt country do not make the computer burn?
19:29<PeterT>__ln__: What would you prefer
19:29<Zuu>How unfair...
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: it makes you computer twice as fast! :p
19:29<Diablo-D3>okay, so guys, can PBI change where industries are put?
19:29<SmatZ>Zuu: oh, that one :)
19:29<Yexo>Diablo-D3: yes
19:29<Diablo-D3>SpComb: yeah, I hate that
19:29<SpComb>and apparently, buffalo router/wlan boxes don't boot up anymore after you feed them 9v
19:29<Diablo-D3>SpComb: I have to be damned sure what DC does what, since almost all my equipment uses compatible barrel plugs
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: PBI does have some own rules about industry placement, like some industries must be near a larger town
19:30<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: hrm
19:30<Zuu>SmatZ: It's a bit old since newer computers do not have this nice switch anymore.
19:30<@Rubidium>hmm... petert can't even write the name of his own state correctly?
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>but afair there's no way to change PBI's behaviour
19:30<Diablo-D3>well, Im looking at a steel mill shoved up against a fuel depot
19:30<PeterT>No, I am not the master genius that you are, Rubidium
19:30<Diablo-D3>right up against.
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: my experience is that native english speakers are the worst english spellers :p
19:31<Diablo-D3>so, ugh.
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: i fear there is nothing you can do about that
19:32<@Rubidium>no, those at Harvard are the master geniuses... just ask about the name of the bridge near MIT and the history of naming said bridge
19:32<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: well, if ottd was realistic, trying to operate the steel mill would blow up the town :D
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>except hacking the grf to check all surrounding tiles
19:32<__ln__>PeterT: do us a favor and enlist in the marine corps
19:32<Diablo-D3>SpComb: btw, as a site note, a lot of equipment can take ranges of input voltages
19:33<Diablo-D3>SpComb: like, 5-12v or 5-9 or 3-6
19:33<PeterT>Don't you mean corpses? :-P
19:33<SpComb>Diablo-D3: I know, I find it a little weird that 9v would fry a 5v device, but apparently, it did
19:33<Diablo-D3>PeterT: its pronounced "core"
19:33<SpComb>Diablo-D3: it wasn't me myself that did this
19:33<Diablo-D3>SpComb: could have just fried the voltage regulator
19:34-!-Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B77B99.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
19:34<@Rubidium>if we meant corpses we would've said Arlington
19:34<Diablo-D3>or it was just shitty chinese shit
19:34<Diablo-D3>Rubidium: hah!
19:34-!-JVassie [~TheExile^@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #openttd
19:35<Diablo-D3>hmm.
19:35<Diablo-D3>I dont think PBI does it quite right
19:36<Eddi|zuHause2>Diablo-D3: there is absolutely no gameplay reason to make industries of unrelated chains check each other's locations
19:36<@Rubidium>but yeah, I guess I'm a master genius as I've been to Harvard, MIT and Stanford ;)
19:36<PeterT>haha
19:37<Eddi|zuHause2>Rubidium: in that case, i was at cambridge ;)
19:37<@Rubidium>oh yeah, I've been to Cambridge (MA) too
19:39<Eddi|zuHause2>no, i mean that one where isaac newton was [not at the same time] ;)
19:39<Zuu>Night guys
19:39-!-Zuu [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:40<@Rubidium>for those who don't know, MIT *is* in Cambridge, MA
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19:41<PeterT>Rubidium: Have you ever actually been to MassAchusetts?
19:41-!-bryjen [~bryjen@75.81.201.131] has joined #openttd
19:43*Rubidium thinks PeterT needs a refreshment course in deduction
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19:55*Rubidium wonders if PeterT could already deduce an answer to his question
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20:00<Eddi|zuHause>AAAAH...
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>and the forum did it again...
20:01<PeterT>you were about to post something?
20:01-!-Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc8-newt30-2-0-cust508.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:01<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: eated your post?
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: well, it should post correctly when i refresh after the backup
20:06<PeterT>does "rm *.orig -R ./" remove all .orig files from all directories?
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20:14<Eddi|zuHause>i'd use "find -iname '*.orig' | xargs -d'\n' rm"
20:14<PeterT>what is the "|"
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>a pipe
20:14<PeterT>is that the equivalent of "&&"?
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>means "take the output of command 1, and use that as input for command 2"
20:16<PeterT>xargs: invalid option -- d
20:17<Eddi|zuHause> --delimiter=delim -d delim Input items are terminated by the specified character. [...]
20:17<PeterT>what's the max paste here?
20:17<PeterT>5 liens?
20:17<PeterT>*lines
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>paste.openttd.org
20:18<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: http://paste.openttd.org/221200
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>which version of xargs is that, then?
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>xargs (GNU findutils) 4.4.0
20:21<PeterT>GNU xargs version 4.1
20:21<PeterT>how do I update?
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: anyway, the -d is useful for when you have spaces in filenames
20:34<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: hey
20:34<Diablo-D3>there is a reason why they should check
20:34<Diablo-D3>its ugly and its hard to service things.
20:35<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: i have not had that kind of problem...
20:35<Eddi|zuHause>gnah... i'm starting to loathe dolphine..
20:35<Eddi|zuHause>-e
20:36<PeterT>Gamecube and Wii emulator?
20:36<PeterT>I dislike anything that has to do with Nintendo
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>what? no. new filebrowser of kde4
20:37<Diablo-D3>lol
20:37<Diablo-D3>name overloading
20:37<Diablo-D3>btw, kde4 kind of sucks
20:37<Diablo-D3>xfce > *
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't even start with a K
20:38<Diablo-D3>_exactly_
20:38<PeterT>http://i.imgur.com/FM3YF.jpg
20:38<Eddi|zuHause>??
20:39<PeterT>lol
20:39<Diablo-D3>PeterT: the ipad nano one was better imo
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20:44<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: http://i.imgur.com/5vREa.png
20:44<PeterT>Sorry
20:44<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=853047#p853047
20:44<PeterT>You have an interesting response
20:46<Eddi|zuHause>why bother me with that?
20:47<Eddi|zuHause>i can ignore NekoMaster fine without your help...
20:49<PeterT>Sorry
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21:12<PeterT>brb, restarting
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21:30<Diablo-D3>hey guys
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21:31<Diablo-D3>is there a way to do the street stations optimally?
21:33<Eddi|zuHause>optimal for what?
21:33<Diablo-D3>so they dont choke themselves
21:34<Diablo-D3>the ones that pass through are problematic.
21:34<Eddi|zuHause>why?
21:34<Diablo-D3>there doesnt seem to be a useful way to use many of them.
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>they should balance the same way as rail stations
21:35<Diablo-D3>in what way?
21:35<Diablo-D3>if I put them side by side, ie, parallel entrances, long articulated vehicles choke the setup
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>meaning they choose the free platform if multiple are available
21:39-!-[alt]buster [~Combuster@82-171-220-59.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #openttd
21:39<Eddi|zuHause>man, i need to learn how to get through doors without the cats slipping in
21:40<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: am I supposed to chain them together?
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21:41<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: try it
21:44<Diablo-D3>hmm
21:44<Diablo-D3>that seems to work better
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21:46<PeterT>is there a switch to turn the line numbers on for MSVC?
21:46<PeterT>I don't want to count 1590 lines
21:57<ccfreak2k>Tools > Options > Text Editor > C/C++ > Display Line Numbers?
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21:59<PeterT>Thank you ccfreak2k
21:59<ccfreak2k>Remember that that only enables line numbers for C and C++ code.
22:18<PeterT>sure, that's the only code I deal with ccfreak2k
22:25<PeterT>good night
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23:08<Diablo-D3>hmm
23:08<Diablo-D3>I wonder if its the difficutly level or one of the grfs I have installed
23:08<Diablo-D3>but its really hard to start off with a train, as in, impossible
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23:40<SirSquidness>Diablo-D3: what difficulty level and GRFs are you playing?
23:40<SirSquidness>I play on pretty relaxed settings and have my loan paid off within a few years
23:42<Diablo-D3>actually, it just seemed to be 2cc
23:42<Diablo-D3>2cc has really really high prices
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---Logclosed Wed Feb 03 00:00:16 2010