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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-02-03

---Logopened Wed Feb 03 00:00:16 2010
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01:43<Terkhen>good morning
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02:51<planetmaker><Diablo-D3> 2cc has really really high prices <-- that depends. People who know how to read a readme know more ;-)
02:51<planetmaker>and a wonderful good morning #openttd
02:51<roboboy>hello
02:51<Terkhen>good morning planetmaker
02:57<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: or I an just use uk whatever it is
02:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18989 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: [NewGRF] Initialise rail type map with default rail types.
03:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r18990 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: [NewGRF] Add rail type map bounds checking to RailType[Change|Reserve]Info().
03:02<planetmaker>Diablo-D3, but I never found 2cctrainset even with default prices too difficult, even starting only with trains
03:02<planetmaker>\o/ @ peter1138 :-)
03:07*roboboy ponders going outside
03:08<roboboy>cyou
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03:12<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: well, there were trains that were 1.3 million
03:12<Diablo-D3>so thats kind of nuts
03:13<planetmaker>Diablo-D3, yes, so what?
03:13<planetmaker>Your first car won't be a Rolls Royce either, will it?
03:13<planetmaker>start with the cheap engines. They're there
03:14<planetmaker>and they get their job done.
03:14<planetmaker>and also pay attention to the running costs. They may also vary a lot ;-)
03:16<planetmaker>and it's a good example that one simply cannot do it right: one person complains it's too easy, the other it's too hard.
03:18<planetmaker>there'd be no point in having all those trains with their different stats, if you could by straight away the fastest, most powerful engine which also had no running costs.
03:18<planetmaker>*buy
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03:50<@peter1138>quite
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04:06<planetmaker>peter1138, do you plan to implement the tracks as overlays only, too within this rail types commit spree?
04:07<planetmaker>it makes a difference when it comes to planning to actually programme the rail type newgrfs :-)
04:08<planetmaker>and sprites could already be brought into the correct shape with this kind of knowledge in mind.
04:09<planetmaker>one way or the other
04:09<@peter1138>yes, it will be overlays only, however there's nothing to stop you cheating and using a full tile as an overlay
04:10<planetmaker>true that :-) But I'd like to avoid that mostly, if I can. It's bound to look funny in more occasions.
04:11<planetmaker>after all, you can not cater for OpenGFX and original base set at the same time.
04:11<ccfreak2k>return(0);
04:11<ccfreak2k>Is this syntactically correct?
04:11<planetmaker>you = newgrf author
04:11<ccfreak2k>Rather, is this sane to do?
04:12<planetmaker>so: overlays is good news :-) Thanks
04:13-!-bartaway is now known as bartavelle
04:13<bartavelle>hello
04:14<@peter1138>ccfreak2k, return 0;
04:15<@peter1138>you wouldn't write "x = (1) + (y);", for example
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04:19<ccfreak2k>Right, I wanted to make sure I wasn't going crazy here.
04:30<Diablo-D3>ccfreak2k: return 0;
04:30<Diablo-D3>er, heh
04:33<ccfreak2k>It seems to be SDL's convention to use return(0);.
04:34<Diablo-D3>C doesnt always have the sanest code.
04:34<Diablo-D3>er, SDL's
04:35<Noldo>maybe they want to make the return feel more functiony
04:35<@peter1138>odd coding styles are fine
04:35<@peter1138>it's when you have different coding styles within one project that gets hairy
04:35<Diablo-D3>as long as -Wall -Wextra doesnt bitch, its not a problem
04:45<@peter1138>yeah right
04:45<@peter1138>and just because your html&css validates means it's correct as well ;)
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04:59<Diablo-D3>peter1138: gcc is pretty bitchy with a lot of stuff
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05:27<ccfreak2k>icc is much more strict, at least by default.
05:30<ccfreak2k>libSDL.a
05:30<ccfreak2k>Hooray!
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05:33<@peter1138>hmm, loads of qt4 updates in lenny
05:34<@peter1138>The list of changes is not available yet.
05:34<@peter1138>Please try again later.The list of changes is not available yet.
05:34<@peter1138>Please try again later.
05:34<@peter1138>it nearly always says that
05:34<@peter1138>although only once. stupid mouse.
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06:34<welshdragon>morning
06:34<welshdragon>(just)
06:35<roboboy>morning
06:36<__ln__>not
06:37*welshdragon is setting up his dedicated server
06:37<welshdragon>There should be a wiki page on how to set one up...
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06:42<devilsadvocate>is there any way to find out if any of my city stations accept a certain thing (vehicles) or if any cities have car dealerships (this is with ECS everything turned on)
06:42<roboboy>what OS are you running?
06:42<roboboy>welshdragon that question was aimed at you
06:43<roboboy>try clicking the rightmost icon in the main toolbar
06:43<welshdragon>roboboy: Debian
06:43<roboboy>then click the station you want more info on devilsadvocate
06:44<roboboy>I cant give you specific help
06:44<roboboy>have you set OpenTTD up using the package?
06:44<devilsadvocate>k
06:44<devilsadvocate>thanks anyway
06:45<welshdragon>i can work the server (openttd -D) but with regards the openttd.cfg, can I just replace it with w/ever?
06:45<roboboy>devilsadvocate: I can give you more specific help
06:45<welshdragon>(in other words a config file that i've edited)
06:45<roboboy>I think it loads the one in your user dir/openttd
06:45<welshdragon>roboboy: com back to me after finishing with devilsadvocate
06:46<welshdragon>:)
06:46<@peter1138>burp
06:46<devilsadvocate>roboboy, well, clicking on every station in the network is somewhat painful, and not very optimal given that most stations dont cover even half of a city
06:46<welshdragon>purb
06:46<devilsadvocate>i was hoping there was some sort of list of all stations accepting foo
06:46<roboboy>I dont think so
06:47<devilsadvocate>nevermind, i'll just take a new station and scroll around till i find it :)
06:47<roboboy>thats all I can do
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08:23<ccfreak2k>Was SDL_sound.h replaced?
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>why would it be?
08:26<ccfreak2k>It seems to be missing from both my SDL binary package and the source I'm using.
08:32<Wizzleby>ccfreak2k: libsdl or sdl-sound?
08:32<ccfreak2k>libSDL
08:33<+glx>I don't have it either
08:33<Wizzleby>ccfreak2k: that might be the issue. exploring around my system, checking for SDL_sound.h, then seeing to what package it belonged.. seems it is part of sdl-sound, not libsdl
08:34<ccfreak2k>I'm guessing it means the program in question needs SDL_sound, which appears to be a seperate project.
08:34<Wizzleby>Aye
08:34<ccfreak2k>Oh boy, another library to port!
08:34<+glx>http://icculus.org/SDL_sound/ <-- maybe it's an external lib
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08:44<ccfreak2k>05:44
08:44<ccfreak2k>Maybe I should turn in for the morning.
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09:33<tb2>Today .. we find out how stable 3G is in a train :)
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>if it survives _under_ a train, i'm impressed :p
09:34<tb2>3G signal? Sure
09:34<tb2>most of the room under a train is pretty safe btw
09:34<tb2>just a few inches which are harmful
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09:35*Rubidium would say it's quite unlikely to hit 3G in a train
09:35<tb2>610ms roundtrip ... lol
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>on a full emergency stop? :p
09:36<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: possibly, but that's not a stable 3G for a long time
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>anybody fit with physics? a train running at 320km/h, with -3G acceleration, how far does it go until it stops?
09:37<tb2>Eddi|zuHause: when hitting another train, maybe
09:37<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: 3G = ~30m/s/s
09:37<@Rubidium>320 km/h is: ~90m/s
09:37<tb2>acceleration and -3G .. somewhere there is too much information :)
09:37<@Rubidium>so I'd say 3 seconds
09:38<thingwath>Poor brakes.
09:38<tb2>wow ... a moving train has a lower lag then a steady train :p
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09:40<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 320*3.6/3/9.81
09:40<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 39.1437308869
09:40<tb2>from 100ms to 3s :p Haha :)
09:40<tb2>Stupid promises T-Mobile makes ... they are FAKE
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (320*3.6/3/9.81)^2*3*9.81/2
09:40<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
09:40<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: km/h -> m/s = divide by 3.6, not multiply
09:41<__ln__>Bjarni!
09:41<@Bjarni>looks like Eddi|zuHause has some fun with some mobile device :P
09:41<tb2>Eddi|zuHause: ^ -> pow()
09:41<@Bjarni>hello __ln__ :)
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (320*3.6/3/9.81)**2*3*9.81/2
09:41<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 22546.7889908
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>22km?
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>that can't be right
09:42<@Bjarni>I have a question for you guys. What is the command for printing the full path to . (in bash)?
09:42<tb2>Eddi|zuHause: what are you TRYING to calculate? :p
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (320/3.6/3/9.81)**2*3*9.81/2
09:42<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 134.237760243
09:43<@Rubidium>tb2: obviously the distance
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>134m ;)
09:43<tb2>@calc 90 * 1.5
09:43<@DorpsGek>tb2: 135
09:43<tb2>taking an average is always much faster/eaiser :p
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>average of what?
09:44<__ln__>Bjarni: pwd
09:44<@Bjarni>thanks
09:44<tb2>Eddi|zuHause: 90 m/s, for 3 seconds. So the average distance will be 90 * 1.5
09:44<tb2>average = estimated
09:44<__ln__>Bjarni: btw, i'll be visiting københavn airport briefly on 26th Aug.
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>who said 3 seconds?
09:45<@Bjarni>btw how is the weather for you guys?
09:45<tb2>@calc 320 / 3.6 * 1.5
09:45<@DorpsGek>tb2: 133.333333333
09:45<@Bjarni>I managed to end up being snowed in and forced to stay at home today :/
09:45<tb2>Eddi|zuHause: RB did :)
09:46<tb2>whoho, station again, lag decreasing :)
09:46<@Bjarni>ohh now I get what this is about
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>tb2: ever heard of "tunnel view"? ;)
09:46<@Bjarni>ping times while moving around ^^
09:46<tb2>Eddi|zuHause: only tunnel vision
09:47<@Bjarni>tb2: I think it's the same thing if you translate correctly
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>tb2: translation inaccuracy
09:48<tb2>Eddi|zuHause: since when do you take me seriously? :p
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>tb2: since you come disguised :p
09:48<@Bjarni>tb2: you mean we shouldn't take anything from you seriously?
09:48<tb2>how
09:48<tb2>owh
09:48-!-tb2 is now known as TrueBrain_Alt
09:48<TrueBrain_Alt>better? :p
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>:)
09:48<@Bjarni>yeah
09:49<@Bjarni>I was wondering who the new guy were :P
09:49<@Bjarni>err
09:49<@Rubidium>nah, we don't like the 'alt' for TrueBrain, the real TrueBrain is soo much more like the real TrueBrain :)
09:49<@Bjarni>*was
09:50<TrueBrain_Alt>new == old with new name
09:50<@peter1138>Bjarni, isn't it you?
09:50<@peter1138>have you got an autoreplace rewrite for us? :D
09:51<TrueBrain_Alt>Rubidium: I can only agree to disagree with you on that
09:51<@Bjarni>err
09:51<@Bjarni>should I have such a thing?
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain_Alt: we say "mit perwoll gewaschen" ;)
09:51<@peter1138>no, it's just traditional
09:51<TrueBrain_Alt>Eddi|zuHause: but you germans are insane
09:51<@Bjarni>right now I'm messing around with robots (again)
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>(comes from a commercial clip)
09:52<@Bjarni>getting them lost and then make them find back on their own
09:52<@Bjarni>first part is much easier than the latter one xD
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>(basically goes like this: "this <cloth made from wool> is so soft, is this new? - no, it's washed with perwoll.")
09:52<@Rubidium>I thought getting a robot to their starting position was the easy part
09:53<@Bjarni>err
09:53<TrueBrain_Alt>Eddi|zuHause: we have that in Dutch too ... "Nieuw? Nee, robijn intensief!"
09:53<@Bjarni>I said it incorrectly >_<
09:53<Sacro>BJARNI!
09:53<Sacro>Bjarniarnium!
09:53<@Rubidium>this->starting_position = GetPosition(); // Optimisation of the 'get to the starting position'-problem
09:54<@Bjarni>the point is that it is somewhere and has a plan for getting somewhere else and then the point is that whenever it miss a turn or whatever it gets lost
09:54<@Bjarni>it should correct this without human help
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>a bjarniarium is a glass box where you keep bjarnis as pets? :p
09:54<TrueBrain_Alt>maybe you should fix it that it doesnt get lost in the first place
09:54<TrueBrain_Alt>sounds more useful to me
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: so it should just notice that it is lost, and go back where it came from?
09:56<@Bjarni>TrueBrain_Alt: well yeah. The point is that all sorts of stuff can happen and it will be lost. One thing could be a person passing by, which confuses the visual sensors. The point is to detect such issues ASAP and compensate to get back to the original plan
09:56<TrueBrain_Alt>I say: GPS!
09:56<@Bjarni>indoor?
09:57*Rubidium wonders why we go through all the hassle of making robots again :)
09:57<@Bjarni>I do for personal reasons
09:58<@Bjarni>specially to finish my master thesis :)
09:58<@Bjarni>why you guys wants to come up with something... I have no idea
09:59-!-sparrL [~kvirc@c-24-98-228-62.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
09:59<@Bjarni>through ideas are welcome. However so far no useful ideas have appeared though
10:00<TrueBrain_Alt>I just would like to say: SCHIEDAM!!!
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10:00<@Rubidium>Bjarni: ask Zoe Graystone; she has experience with sentient robots ;)
10:00<TrueBrain_Alt>k, going to logoff, this was enough fun ... IRC held through the trip .. I am amazed :) Bubye!
10:00<@Rubidium>ciao
10:00<@Rubidium>good luck in Schiedam
10:00<@Bjarni>bye TrueBrain_Alt
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10:01<@Bjarni>I'm not sure I want the robot to be sentient... seems pretty scary if it started to act on it's own
10:02<@Bjarni>looked potentially scary as it navigated around the darkness the other night (yes, night) with only LED lights on it
10:03<planetmaker>Bjarni, just make sure you teach them the three (or four) fundamental laws of robotics well ;-)
10:04<@Bjarni>I wonder about those laws. How would any robot comply with those if a nuclear missile is so advanced that it could be considered a robot?
10:05<@Bjarni>or another example. Somebody made a robot to remove unexploded mines from the sea. It dives and land on top of it and detonates a bomb it carries
10:05<@Bjarni>works really well... but it fails to comply with the law not to harm robots and it kills itself in the process
10:06<__ln__>Bjarni: it works because the previous law states that the robot must obey humans
10:07<__ln__>and the not harming itself law only applies if it doesn't conflict with the previous ones
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10:07<+glx>[15:52:52] <Eddi|zuHause> (basically goes like this: "this <cloth made from wool> is so soft, is this new? - no, it's washed with perwoll.") <-- here it's called "mir laine"
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10:24<Shapeshifter>How can I make trains longer? I have a "Stanley-Morel" refitted for coal mining but it's only two carriages long which is a bit annoying. the train stations are 5 units long
10:24<Shapeshifter>can't I make it longer?
10:25<Shapeshifter>there's 270 tons of coal waiting and the train only takes 2x9tons, that's even less then what a coal truck carries (20 tons)
10:25<Yexo>buy a few coal wagons and attach them?
10:26<Shapeshifter>Yexo: how? should I buy "coal truck"s?
10:26<Shapeshifter>I mean, it's called a truck even though it's under the train depot stuff
10:26<Yexo>no, in a train depot you buy a coal wagon
10:26<Yexo>oh, maybe it's called coal truck
10:26<Yexo>depends onthe newgrf probably
10:26<Shapeshifter>ah yes, it worked
10:26<Shapeshifter>thanks.
10:27<Noldo>so which was it?
10:27<+glx>using a passenger train for coal is silly anyway
10:28<Shapeshifter>muuch better. Well, what else? I clicked on "cargo type Coal" and then it showed that train
10:28<Shapeshifter>there's nothing else there when I click on coal, except the coal truck, which can't go by itself, can it?
10:29<+glx>of course, engines don't transport anything so they are not shown
10:29<Yexo>Shapeshifter: you could use an engien that doesn't hold any cargo
10:29<Shapeshifter>ahh
10:29<Shapeshifter>okay thanks.
10:31<__ln__>some engines do
10:33<Diablo-D3>most of them just are pax though
10:41<Shapeshifter>And how can I give orders to all vehicles in a group?
10:43<Shapeshifter>nevermind I'm reading the wiki
10:43<Shapeshifter>everything's there ^^
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10:44*Bjarni picks up a large trout and slaps Shapeshifter
10:44<@Rubidium>poor trout
10:45<@Rubidium>why all that agression?
10:45<@Bjarni>if it's not in the wiki then it's not worth knowing (or it should get added)
10:47<@Bjarni><Rubidium> why all that agression? <-- it's even less than if you turn on the TV and yet you complain?
10:47<@Bjarni>did you call the TV channels to complain there as well?
10:49<@Bjarni>complaining about TV... something great happened here
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10:49<@Bjarni>they had a weekly documentary about health and diseases where a doctor answered questions and stuff
10:50<@Bjarni>they showed all kind of stuff where they expected that some people would complain for being too bold, but nobody complained
10:50<planetmaker>all people act like shit. So why not ourselves?
10:50<@Rubidium>Bjarni: I rarely watch TV, like less than 1 hour a week
10:50<@Bjarni>when they showed a video of heart surgery and nobody complained then they thought they couldn't get complains
10:51<@Bjarni>but then it happened... they did one thing and they were drowning in complains
10:51*planetmaker has not TV
10:51<@Bjarni>they actually had a small mountain of letters with people complaining
10:51<@Bjarni>and can you guess why? :)
10:51<@Rubidium>because it was axed by management
10:52<@Bjarni>no
10:52<@Bjarni>much better
10:52<@Bjarni>the doctor went to see somebody and we saw him drive in his car and he wasn't wearing a seat belt
10:53<+glx>safety is important :)
10:55<Shapeshifter>oh dear, signals, this looks complicated
10:55<Shapeshifter>got to be fun ^^
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10:58<lennard>TrueBrain: utwente mirror thingy will be in maintenaince tomorrow morning from around 0900
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11:00<Shapeshifter>mhh. no I don't really get it. I have two trains, and I have a rail layout like this >----< meaning that at each end there is one branching and in the middle there's a shared bit of rail
11:00<@Rubidium>lennard: where did they announce that?
11:01<lennard>we didnt, thats what I'm doing :P
11:01<Shapeshifter>what do I need as lights? 4 block signals?
11:01<Shapeshifter>Can't two trains be on the same stretch if they're going in the same direction?
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11:05<SpComb>Shapeshifter: they can if you use path signals ina sufficiently clever fashion
11:05<SpComb>Shapeshifter: but even that is limited to two trains, since there's no full ahead-reservation
11:11<blathijs>Ey, a lennard here :-)
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11:16<@Bjarni><Shapeshifter> Can't two trains be on the same stretch if they're going in the same direction? <-- two trains can't even be in the same block in real life which means it's quite realistic that we need signals between the trains
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11:17<@Bjarni>some countries like Sweden have decided to have an empty track between moving trains. This way a train has to pass two red signals to cause an accident.
11:17<PeterT>hello all
11:17<PeterT>Hi Bjarni
11:17<@Bjarni>the only thing you can do to increase traffic is the same as in real life: make the blocks shorter
11:17<@Bjarni>hello PeterT
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11:18<@Bjarni>always fun to show up with a 120 meter train and somebody expects you to stay in a 90 meter block :P
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11:19<@Bjarni>or as a driver once told me: he was told to be in a 90 meter block when he was driving a freight train, which were so heavy that it had to use two locomotives
11:19<@Bjarni>which means it was somewhat much longer than 90 meters
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11:27<thingwath>Of course it's possible to enter an occupied section. Sometimes. Somewhere. :)
11:29<@Bjarni>yeah
11:29<@Bjarni>I tried that
11:29<@Bjarni>you do it very slowly
11:33<thingwath>I don't really know how often people do that.
11:34<thingwath>Not much, I'd say.
11:35<@Bjarni>I did it because the station was being rebuilt
11:35<@Bjarni>meaning it only had one track to enter
11:35<@Bjarni>and it wasn't vacant
11:35<thingwath>That's another case, I think.
11:36<@Bjarni>oh and another time due to a lighting strike
11:36<@Bjarni>one station went dead and then somebody decided to take out quite a lot of trains because capacity though a dead station is limited
11:36<@Bjarni>all those trains ended up taking up all of the tracks at the end of the line
11:37<@Bjarni>meaning I ended up entering a track which were already in use
11:37<thingwath>Regulations are quite different all around the world :/
11:37<@Bjarni>good thing it was the long platform :)
11:37<@Bjarni>it was actually just long enough to handle both trains
11:38<@Bjarni><thingwath> Regulations are quite different all around the world :/ <-- yeah... and nobody managed to figure out a great system >_<
11:38<@Bjarni>either they are unsafe or they are so safe that it prevents driving
11:38<thingwath>One size doesn't fit all, I guess.
11:39<@Bjarni>no but... there are a lot of stupid stuff
11:39<@Bjarni>like when allowing passing red signals
11:39<@Bjarni>it's potentially quite dangerous
11:40<@Bjarni>meaning you should carefully think about which conditions you include to prevent a green signal
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11:40<@Bjarni>like here we have stations where you can't get a green signal when leaving it if there is a broken road crossing
11:41<@Bjarni>meaning if the crossing is broken, then the train takes so much care not to hit cars that it loses the ability to see if the block it enters is actually free
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11:41<@Bjarni>this is a problem on single tracked lines
11:42<@Bjarni>this is one of the things I refer to as being so safe that you can't actually drive
11:42<thingwath>Aren't there special crossing signals?
11:42<@Bjarni>there are
11:42<@Bjarni>but years ago some driver just looked at the green signal and then he hit a car
11:43<@Bjarni>now the driver can see both crossing signals and the "normal" signal
11:43<PeterT>plane speed factor cannot be set during network games?
11:43<@Bjarni>oh we also have cases of drivers who sees the crossing signals only and then they leave the station and cause a headon collision :x
11:44<@Bjarni>PeterT: I think you have to set it before starting, but I'm not 100% sure
11:44<PeterT>I used to be able to set it
11:44<@Bjarni>hmm
11:46<thingwath>I'd expect cab signalling on most of the lines, in Sweden. :)
11:46<@Bjarni>because of those accidents where drivers only checks crossing signals they changed the setup to make the crossings only show clear in the direction the train is coming from (they used to be simple and show both ways nomatter where the train would be)
11:46<PeterT>"<PeterT> ~rcon **** set plane_speed 1
11:46<PeterT><Clan-server> ERROR: This command/variable is not available during network games."
11:47<@Bjarni><thingwath> I'd expect cab signalling on most of the lines, in Sweden. :) <--- those things cost an arm and a leg and are usually applied to main lines
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11:48<@Bjarni>this means the small single tracked lines in rural areas often lacks cab signals
11:48<@Bjarni>I'm serious. You can buy a decent apartment for the price it costs to fit a locomotive with cab signals o_O
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11:51<@Rubidium>Bjarni: not having them costs lives, but apparantly body parts are valued higher than lives
11:51<@Bjarni>this is one reason why railroads in Europe have issues. Say you take a freight train from Malmö (southern Sweden) to Hamburg (Northern Germany), then the train needs cab signals for Sweden, Denmark and Germany. Also it has to be able to switch between the systems flawlessly and prevent say the Swedish one wakes up in Denmark and hits the brake "because the track fails to send data"
11:51<Shapeshifter>mhh, I see, thanks for the input
11:51<@Bjarni>also Sweden and Germany uses 16 2/3 Hz 15 kV catenary while Denmark use 50 Hz 25 kV
11:52<thingwath>There are worse cases. :)
11:52<@Rubidium>1.5 kV!
11:52<@Bjarni>meaning the train has to be able to handle both and switch while in speed
11:52<@Bjarni> <Rubidium> 1.5 kV! <-- yeah, that's a serious issue
11:53<@Bjarni>NL freight draws 4 kA from 1.5 kV catenary o_O
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11:53<@Rubidium>you know that there's one advantage of low voltage catenaries?
11:53<thingwath>At least they don't have much hills. :)
11:53<@Bjarni>I saw a multiple voltage locomotive once. It could handle 750 V, 1500 V (both DC) and 20 kV at both 50 and 60 Hz
11:54<@Rubidium>it gets hot enough to not worry about ice on the catenaries :)
11:54<Shapeshifter>afaik spain has wider tracks
11:54<thingwath>Well, DC engines are much simpler. In theory.
11:54<@Bjarni> <Rubidium> it gets hot enough to not worry about ice on the catenaries :) <-- not true. The Danish 1500 V lines still have problems
11:54<@Bjarni>they are only used for EMUs though, not diesel
11:54<@Rubidium>Bjarni: then they don't use them enough :)
11:54<@Bjarni>not *freight
11:55<@Bjarni>any freight is diesel
11:55<thingwath>Lightning effects are so niiiice.
11:56<@Bjarni>somebody talked about replacing the 1.5 kV system with 25 kV in order to make all catenary in the country compatible
11:56<@Bjarni>all the EMUs needed to be replaced anyway
11:56<@Bjarni>they ended up not doing it though
11:57<thingwath>Slovakia has both 3 kV and 25 kV systems, planing to replace the first one with the latter.
11:57<@Bjarni>and now we are still stuck with two incompatible systems
11:58<@Bjarni>it would have been so easy to switch. The new EMUs have a DC->AC converter and AC engines. All it needed to do was to add an AC-> DC converter and it would be able to handle both AC and DC
11:58<thingwath>That's not that easy, unfortunately.
11:58<@Bjarni>they feared trying to use 25 kV as 1,5 kV by accident
11:59<@Rubidium>Bjarni: well.. the government introduced that problem to the NL over the last decade too
11:59<@Bjarni><thingwath> That's not that easy, unfortunately. <--- it is if you plan ahead. They were custom designing new trains and they could have included it
12:00<@Bjarni>now they decided to replace the cab signal system to ETCS (the EU standard)
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12:00<@Bjarni>guess what: the one they install on the 25 kV system and the 1.5 kV system aren't compatible
12:00<@Bjarni>not that it has anything to do with the voltage
12:00<@Bjarni>they just picked different systems
12:01<@Bjarni>even better: the new system can't handle trains without cab signals
12:02<@Bjarni>meaning the new system where switching systems should be less of a problem is in fact introducing new switching issues
12:02<@Bjarni>bahh
12:03<thingwath>:)
12:04<@Bjarni>btw I don't get why it's a good idea to introduce a system where a cab system is needed to drive
12:04<@Bjarni>it means that whenever it breaks, then the train is stuck
12:05<thingwath>Fewer problems with EM compatibility? (I don't know how does it work.)
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12:07<thingwath>Which ETCS level is that?
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12:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18991 /trunk/src/network/ (network_content.cpp network_content.h): -Codechange: simplify memory management of DownloadSelectedContent
12:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18992 /trunk/src/network/ (network_content.cpp network_content.h): -Codechange: move the file opening/closing out of the content download function
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12:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18993 /trunk/src/ (core/smallvec_type.hpp newgrf_sound.cpp): -Codechange: allow allocating multiple items in a SmallVector with one call.
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12:33<Eddi|zuHause>sooo... the noise machine is finally on the way back...
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12:46<Shapeshifter>this is driving me nuts. my trains keep taking wrong turns for no obvious reason. they keep driving into depots or try going ways where they're not supposed to go
12:48<@Rubidium>wrong signals, missing pieces of (junction) rail, unreachable destinations, ...
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>missing catenary
12:48<SpComb>Shapeshifter: there's many possible reasons
12:48<@Rubidium>(wrong signals = wrong signals or wrongly placed signals)
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>misplaced orders
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12:49<Eddi|zuHause>trains go for service every few months
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12:50<Shapeshifter>I think it's because they try going to the wrong end of their route while heading the other way
12:50<Shapeshifter>so they go into depots to turn around
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>then they wait too long at signals and turn around
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12:53<Terkhen>hello
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13:20<Shapeshifter>nah I don't get it :| http://stuff.moritzg.ch/openttfwrong.png why does the steel-train in the middle turn left there? it's supposed to go to Aberdinghattan Valley, that's where I've sent it! And that's in its schedule, it has the little ">" at "go to aberdinghattan".
13:20<Shapeshifter>why on earth does it do that >.<
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13:21<Faux>'cos it can't go right?
13:21<Shapeshifter>why not?
13:21<Faux>The signal is red!
13:21<Shapeshifter>why doesn't it wait at the signal.
13:22<Shapeshifter>why does it decide to just go some random way?
13:23<SpComb>Shapeshifter: wrong signals
13:23<SpComb>Shapeshifter: read up on how two-way block signals work
13:26<SmatZ>Shapeshifter: "set firstred_twoway_eol 0" or so
13:26<SmatZ>"set rail_firstred_twoway_eol 0" actually, if you are using YAPF
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>that's one of the settings that should be off by default
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't say that the first time...
13:27<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: then WHERE is your patch for table/settings.h?
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>err... possibly in www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/settings1.diff
13:28<Shapeshifter>humm
13:29<@Rubidium>hmm, can't remember that one
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>i can post it to flyspray, if you want
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>and search for the discussion in irc about objections that people had
13:31<@Rubidium>hmm, there was a discussion about it when I was battling someone DOSing the server
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>that might be an appropriate distraction ;)
13:38<Shapeshifter>mh. I still don't understand this - excue my ignorance. I'm reading http://wiki.openttd.org/Yet_Another_PBS_Patch and I don't understand all these two way junctions things. I mean, how do I get the trains to only drive on one side?
13:38<Shapeshifter>basically, how do I tell a train to go left or right at a junction?
13:38<Shapeshifter>for example, why won't a train coming from the right not plow straight ahead in this example: http://wiki.openttd.org/Image:Yapp_single_track.png
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>to disallow a route for trains, use one way signals (the most right one, with the red square)
13:39<Hirundo>Trains prefer to avoid routes that pass signals backwards
13:39<Shapeshifter>ah
13:40*lennard prods TrueBrain
13:41<Shapeshifter>So I was usually thinking of some sort of "bus" system (as in computer science bus), with one single main track that can only connect two branches at a time
13:41<Shapeshifter>I guess this is not suitable for trains :|
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>err... the definition of "bus" that i know specifically includes addressing more than one device...
13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18994 /trunk/ (11 files in 6 dirs): -Change: content mirroring support (based on work by TrueBrain).
13:43<PeterT>What will r18994 do?
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>so now also bananas is on the mirrors?
13:43<Shapeshifter>Eddi|zuHause: but only transferring data to one at a time
13:43<PeterT>we can upload bananas stuff via mirrors or soemthing?
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: no, mirroring is for balancing the downloads. does not change upload in any way
13:44<PeterT>I still don't understand this
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r18995 /trunk/src/lang/ (greek.txt hebrew.txt russian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: greek - 8 changes by fumantsu
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hebrew - 17 changes by dnd_man
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 6 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>ever been to a supermarket?
13:47<PeterT>yes
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>there you have more than one cashier
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>each one of these represent a mirror
13:49<PeterT>Why does that need to be instilled into OpenTTD?
13:49<PeterT>is OpenTTD the supermarket?
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>you go to the cashier where the queue is the shortest
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>so you don't have to wait as much
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>the supermarket is the content download window
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>the cashier is the download button
13:49<PeterT>ah
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13:54<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: so now there are multiple "Download" buttons, you can choose one of them? nice
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: not exactly, the choosing is automatic ;)
13:55-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
13:55<SmatZ>:-p
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: obviously, not every analogy is fully accurate
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>there are also mirror systems, where you can choose yourself...
13:57<SmatZ>that "download button is a cachier" analogy was strange :)
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>usually people like my analogies ;)
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14:07<SpComb>multiple download buttons sounds fun
14:07<@Rubidium>and we call it: grfcrawler
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14:27<Eddi|zuHause>now i'm totally lost...
14:27<PeterT>I can still build when the server is paused from a connecting client, is that a bug?
14:27<PeterT>Not just build anything though
14:28<PeterT>only build trains in the train window
14:28<SmatZ>PeterT: design decision
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14:53<PeterT>andythenorth?
14:53<SmatZ>peter the north?
14:53<PeterT>peterthenorth
14:54<PeterT>SmatZthesouthwest
14:54<SmatZ>:-p
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15:11<Shapeshifter>mh.
15:11<Shapeshifter>people don't like my trains.
15:11<Shapeshifter>I've reduced the servicing interval to like 1/4 of the default and there are never too many goods waiting at the station.
15:12<Shapeshifter>still, I'm always poor or mediocre.
15:13<frosch123>let trains wait for full load
15:13<Shapeshifter>frosch123: why?
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15:33<Shapeshifter>http://stuff.moritzg.ch/openttfsad.png for example here, there's two train driving clockwise. they almost don't have any waiting time at the lights, and I've set the interval to 50 days. Also, I can't set "full load", it's greyed out. they break down almost never, one train takes 8 wagons of grain, the other 8 wagons of coal. yet, the rating is constantly dropping.
15:34<Shapeshifter>ratings on both sides actually, both grain and coal.
15:35<Shapeshifter>ah. greyed out because I have to click on a destination first.
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15:43<SmatZ>Shapeshifter: or use timetables, so trains are longer in the station
15:43<SmatZ>but for that short distance, even 3 wagons would be too much
15:43<SmatZ>depends on production of course
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16:05<Shapeshifter>SmatZ: but, production goes up if the rating is good, right?
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>over time
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16:14<Shapeshifter>I see
16:15<TrueBrain>lennard: tnx for letting me know, I will put NL out of rotation for now
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16:25<PeterT>!screen
16:26<__ln__>PeterT: ¿qué dices?
16:26<TrueBrain>glx: where is your script?
16:27<+glx>it's here, but this command was unknown :)
16:27-!-Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-98-254-113-47.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
16:27<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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16:32<PeterT>Hello Nite_Owl
16:32<Nite_Owl>Hello PeterT
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: ¡Solo inglés!
16:35<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: It would be ¡Solamente inglés!
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>that's way too long :p
16:36<Terkhen>"¡Solo inglés!" is correct.
16:36<PeterT>doesn't "solamente" mean "only"
16:36<__ln__>Terkhen: but sólo?
16:37<PeterT>just like finalmente == finally
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: no, emphasis is on the first o
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't need accent
16:37-!-Lachie [whitey@creep.bur.st] has quit [Server closed connection]
16:37<PeterT>mente is the equivalent of "-ly"
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16:37<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: Mi diccionario dice que "sólo".
16:38-!-Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds]
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>pherhaps... my spanish class was over 10 years ago
16:39<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: but so was your english class as well?
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: "solo adv. también: sólo"
16:40<Terkhen>PeterT: besides other meanings, solo means "only" too
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>http://dict.leo.org/esde?search=nur
16:42<PeterT>Terkhen: Ok, thanks for explaining
16:45<TrueBrain>"Eram quod es, eris quod sum"
16:45<__ln__>am i correct that the preterito indefinido (like "he visto una película") refers to events that happened today, or something like that?
16:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18996 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 3 dirs): -Fix (r18993, r18994): MSVC 64 bits had somethings to complain about
16:46<PeterT>__ln__: I don't think that is correct
16:46<__ln__>if it even is called preterito indefinido... maybe it's not!
16:46<PeterT>the preterite refers to something that happened before
16:47<PeterT>like "escribí en 'IRC' por dos horas"
16:47<PeterT>means "I wrote in IRC for 2 hours"
16:47<__ln__>hmm, i actually meant pretérito perfecto.
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16:48<@Rubidium>PeterT: if you're so good in languages, what does "hou je waffel" mean?
16:48<Noldo>when is the time to start whining about the fall of "english only" ? ;)
16:48-!-tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-23-228.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:48<PeterT>Rubidium: I wasn't bragging...
16:49<PeterT>the only reason I know that is because I study Spanish
16:50<PeterT>Rubidium: it means "love you shuts"
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16:51<PeterT>bye all for now
16:51<dih>petert: you are 14? right?
16:51<@Rubidium>PeterT: do you really think I would ask something that Google translate translates properly?
16:51<dih>you "study" spanish?
16:51<dih>or do you have a school class once week for 45 mins?
16:52<PeterT>dih: A school class every day for 45 minutes
16:52-!-PeterT [~Peter@c-71-233-211-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Goodbye]
16:52<Noldo>dih: what have you been up to lately?
16:52<Nite_Owl>Too many questions ??
16:53<@Rubidium>Nite_Owl: nah, mommy called for dinner
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>dih: in the USA, spanish is often the first foreign language
16:53-!-Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x3ef3a1bd.virnxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:53<__ln__>(and last?)
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>that probably depends on the school ;)
16:53<dih>:-P
16:53<dih>and what you define with 'study'
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>dih: also, spanish is the largest minority language in the USA [especially in the southwest and florida]
16:54<dih>Noldo, getting a job, visiting my sick dad,
16:54<__ln__>dih: more than 30 million spanish speakers in the USA
16:55<dih>yeah - and all germans can speak english too - ha! ha!
16:55<dih>i just wanted to add 'weight' to the word 'study'
16:55<__ln__>what word would you use then?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>dih: the english word "study" is way lower than the german "studieren"
16:56<dih>"have spannish at school"? :-P
16:56<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: then what do you think a "studiedag" (study day) means?
16:56-!-Lex [~lex@188-222-119-52.zone13.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
16:56<dih>probably sloughing :-P
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16:57<dih>eh slouching
16:57<Lex>what does make: *** [all] Error 2 mean?
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>Lex: means there were two errors
16:57<@Rubidium>Lex: depends on the context
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>Lex: the kind of error should be in the previous lines
16:58<Lex>I'm trying to compile the latest version off the svn
16:58<dih>the latest version of svn? :-D
16:58*dih points at #svn <- click
16:58<dih>:-D
16:58<@Rubidium>dih: the "the" is important
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>dih: some people actually use "off" the right way...
16:59<Lex>http://pastebin.com/d40c236b0
16:59<dih>:-D
16:59<dih>i was being silly - odd that you could not tell :-P
16:59<Lex>s/off/of/
16:59<Lex>?_?
16:59<@Rubidium>configure failed
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>Lex: don't listen to him, he is being silly obviously...
17:00<Lex>off works in my accent, but if you're going to be fussy.
17:00<+glx>off was right in this context :)
17:00<dih>Lex - don't pay attention to that
17:00<dih>just being silly
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>Lex: "configure: error: no liblzo2 detected"
17:00<@Rubidium>and because configure failed the makefile wasn't regenerated, so the makefile tried to run configure again, gone in a infinite loop and broke
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>that's the relevant line
17:01<+glx>the error is clear :)
17:01<Lex>Eddi|zuHause, "WARNING: OpenTTD doesn't require liblzo2, but it does mean that" is the next line though
17:01<Ammler>Avignon sur la pont...
17:01<Lex>also I installed that
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>Lex: read the sentence in full
17:01<+glx>Ammler: and in french ?
17:01<Lex>oh
17:01<Ammler>:-)
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>Lex: you need not only the library, but also the development files for the library
17:02<+glx>Ammler: grammar is important :)
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>so not only "lzo" but also "lzo-devel" [or similar]
17:03*Lex waits for port to finish
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17:04<+glx>--without-liblzo2 should work too
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17:04<Eddi|zuHause>Lex: people have been reporting trouble getting liblzo to work on osx
17:04<Lex>It never used to ask for it
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>the dependency is new
17:05<+glx>before it used minilzo directly in the source
17:05<Lex>then why does it specify that you can't load old games without it? o_O
17:05<+glx>old games are compressed with lzo
17:06<+glx>we just replaced minilzo with the extern lib it came from
17:06<Lex>oh well. I couldn't get it to work even after installing all ports I could find related to lzo so sod it. I haven't got any old saves anyway.
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>Lex: same algorithm, different implementation/package
17:06<Lex>ah
17:07<+glx>(less code to maintain for us :) )
17:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18997 /trunk/bin/gm/orig_win.obm: -Fix [FS#3588] (r18608): off-by-one in the music playlist (Cirdan)
17:07<@Rubidium>(especially less compiler warnings to fix)
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>Zutty's avatar always reminds me of the toad in futurama
17:13-!-Mattho [~opera@ip-89-102-33-76.karneval.cz] has joined #openttd
17:14<Nite_Owl>ALL HAIL THE HYPNO-TOAD !!
17:14<@Rubidium>do any of the OSX users any idea about the correctness of the patches for FS#1140 and FS#3194?
17:14<@Rubidium>+have
17:15<Nite_Owl>I am sorry... did I just type that ??
17:15<@Rubidium>yes, you typed "that"
17:16-!-PeterT [~PeterT@c-65-96-203-35.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
17:17<__ln__>Nite_Owl: can't tell, you could have pasted it as well. or read through a barcode scanner.
17:18<Nite_Owl>ok - so it was a lame joke but somewhat relevant none the less
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17:20<Nite_Owl>http://r33b.net/
17:20<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: what's the rationale for disabling dragging of stations by default?
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>not entirely sure...
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>i just remember that i always turn that off...
17:21<@Rubidium>I always use dragging
17:21<PeterT>do I need to uninstall MSVC++ express to install MSVC pro?
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>might be a personal thing though, so you can leave that out
17:21<SmatZ>I am always using drag&drop
17:22<__ln__>PeterT: please do not install pirated software.
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>let's say i'm not particularly sad if you skip that ;)
17:22<PeterT>__ln__: Who says its pirated?
17:22<PeterT>perhaps I have you real life and prefer to compile win32 and win64 builds all day, so I bought MSVC Pro
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>because it has "MS" in its name
17:23<__ln__>PeterT: it's expensive, you couldn't have afforded it
17:23<Nite_Owl>depends on the station set; with some, like industrial stations, you get a better looking set up by placing tiles individually
17:23<__ln__>PeterT: anyway, at least you can have two different versions of VS Pro installed at the same time.
17:24<PeterT>Oh really? that's great
17:24<PeterT>thanks for the info, __ln__
17:24<SmatZ>PeterT is going to "buy" next one
17:24<@Rubidium>__ln__: actually 3 works too, but don't try to uninstall any
17:25<PeterT>__ln__: What country do you live in?
17:25*Belugas is going to "run" home next
17:25<@Belugas>night
17:25<@Rubidium>night Belugas
17:25<Nite_Owl>later Belugas
17:25-!-Grelouk [~Grelouk@191.149.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
17:25<PeterT>night be
17:25<Terkhen>good night Belugas
17:25<PeterT>+lugas
17:25<SmatZ>good night, Belugas
17:27<__ln__>PeterT: Finland.
17:27<PeterT>is piracy illegal there, __ln__?
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>no, there is only wood and lakes in finland, no piracy...
17:29<__ln__>PeterT: Of course it is.
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17:30<+glx>[23:23:00] <PeterT> perhaps I have you real life and prefer to compile win32 and win64 builds all day, so I bought MSVC Pro <-- express can do that
17:31<PeterT>glx: You told me it couldn't
17:31<+glx>http://jenshuebel.wordpress.com/2009/02/12/visual-c-2008-express-edition-and-64-bit-targets/
17:31<+glx>I told you that before I found the above link
17:32<PeterT>that guide is so crammed
17:32<PeterT>it looks more like a oversized paragraph than instructions
17:33<+glx>just install windows sdk and run a script
17:34<PeterT>try clicking the link for that script
17:36<SmatZ>you don't need the script, you can do it manually
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17:38<+glx>true, but I prefered use the script ;)
17:38<Noldo>glx + script = <3
17:39<PeterT>glx: You've already test that?
17:39<+glx>yes
17:39<+glx>works very well
17:39<PeterT>You have an x64 machine to test it on?
17:40<+glx>of course
17:40<PeterT>I see why you are the windows expert
17:40<__ln__>PeterT: ¿tienes que estudiar español, o lo estudias voluntariamente?
17:41<PeterT>I choose to do it
17:41<PeterT>you have a choice of french, latin, spanish, or no language
17:41<PeterT>and I choose spanish
17:41<PeterT>More people speak Spanish than french and latin combined
17:42<Lex>new compile error log: http://pastebin.com/d4770a757
17:42<PeterT>since latin is a dead language, mostly
17:42<Lex>(been sitting in term for a while, I just hadn't noticed it)
17:42<Terkhen>what do people that chose "no language"?
17:42<__ln__>Terkhen: they become presidents of the USA.
17:43<PeterT>Terkhen: They get other classes like "Small Group English" which is mainly for those that are failing at English so badly they need two 45-minute sessions to comprehend what is happening
17:44<@Rubidium>Lex: that's described in http://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_Mac (search for iconv)
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17:45<Terkhen>__ln__: I doubt it, that man who thought that Spain is in Mexico was not elected
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>i had 3 foreign languages at school...
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>... at a school that emphasises science and maths
17:46<@Rubidium>oh... we're going to make it an auction?
17:46<@Rubidium>then I say 5
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, if you want higher education, two foreign languages are mandatory, third is optional
17:47<SmatZ>english, german, spanish, russian, french :)
17:48<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: here it's 3 (English, French and German although the latter two are "reading only")
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>first foreign language is almost always english
17:48<Shapeshifter>Is there a way to hide trees?
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>in pre-1989 east germany, russian was mandatory, though
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>Shapeshifter: ctrl+x
17:48<Shapeshifter>Eddi|zuHause: thanks!
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>the small green button switches between transparent and invisible
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17:54<PeterT>glx: Do you still have that batch script
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17:55<+glx>PeterT: just use the win7sdk one
17:56<PeterT>k
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17:59<Eddi|zuHause>http://epicwinftw.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/129083415705532207.jpg <-- i think i'll get this computer instead of that other one i sent back
18:00<+glx>nice one
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18:02<Lex>nightly
18:02<Lex>Isn't a bot supposed to respond to that?
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>no
18:02<Lex>oh
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>it's a riddle ;)
18:03<Lex>?_? why isn't there an osx build on that list
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>because you haven't read the announcements and forum?
18:05<Lex>Indeed I haven't
18:05<Lex>I just noticed I had an openttd icon in one of my dock stacks and thought "oh I remember that it was fun, i should update my copy"
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>"Support us by maintaining the Mac OS X portWe have lost our Mac OS X maintainer about two years ago. Since then the lack of maintainance has lead to a large number of Mac OS X unsolved specific bugs and numerous Mac OS X issues with the newer versions of Mac OS X. To keep support for Mac OS X we need a new maintainer. "
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=45247
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's all right there on the front page
18:06*Lex goes to find the frontpage
18:07<Lex>Well fuck. :/
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18:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18998 /trunk/ (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp): -Update: the credits
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18:13<__ln__>oh no, only 102 revisions to go until cakeparty.
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>so, did you order the cake yet?
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>and the plane tickets to get everyone to your place?
18:14-!-Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-069-245-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Something strange must have happened...]
18:14<__ln__>i don't know if printed cakes are available here.
18:15<__ln__>besides i think TrueBrain already promised something about cake at 20000.
18:15<Lex>why does 19100 indicate a party?
18:15<PeterT>he probably meant 1000
18:16<__ln__>Lex: yeah, read my lines as i meant them, not as i typed them.
18:16<Lex>Right.
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18:19<Eddi|zuHause>reminds me of that basic rule i learnt in university
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>"Professor says A, but he means B, writes C on the board, and D is actually correct"
18:20<@Rubidium>whatever you think is true, the exact opposite might be true too
18:20<ccfreak2k>If I need the Vector datatype in C++, I'd probably need to get it from STL right?
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a sensible place to look
18:25<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K5SycZjGhI is what I meant
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>i love youtube... downloading the clips takes so long, by the time they are done, i have forgotten that i downloaded them...
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18:36<Eddi|zuHause>so apparently this 8.029.431 byte file took 8m 35s at 25,1KB/s
18:36-!-andythenorth [~andytheno@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has left #openttd []
18:38<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: what's the rationale behind pause-on-newgame? It means that new users have to find the pause button first before it starts working
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>hm... you could have asked this last month when i wrote this :)
18:39<@Rubidium>and that might not make it a very got setting to be turned on for new users
18:39<@Rubidium>then I was asking why a Chinese person was DoS-ing
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18:40<Eddi|zuHause>again, that might be a personal preference that slipped through. if you think this heavily confuses newbies, then skip it
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18:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r18999 /trunk/src/table/settings.h: -Change: update some of the defaults (Eddi)
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18:56<Terkhen>good night
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19:03<ccfreak2k>I was told that Vector is distinct from vector.
19:03<ccfreak2k>Now I have to solve the mystery of the missing datatype.
19:06<@Rubidium>STL is all lowercase, so Vector isn't in there
19:06<Faux>This channel is like ##c++, but scarier.
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19:20<Shapeshifter>http://stuff.moritzg.ch/openttfomg.png the hell?
19:21<Shapeshifter>how can I prevent this from happening?
19:21<Shapeshifter>seems like there was a traffic jam at the lights
19:21<@Rubidium>by building bridges
19:22<Shapeshifter>mh. and how can I clean up the mess?
19:22<Shapeshifter>stuff just sits around now.
19:22<@Rubidium>wait
19:23<Shapeshifter>but I'm worried that the train will come by again and crash into things again
19:23<Nite_Owl>stop the train
19:23<Shapeshifter>ok.
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19:25<PeterT>Build a temporary bridge to the right of the road
19:25<PeterT>and redirect traffic to there
19:25<Nite_Owl>Need to feed - later all
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19:26<ccfreak2k>Wouldn't a PBS work well there?
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>double rails are a real death trap for road vehicles
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>PBS even increases that effect
19:27<ccfreak2k>Shouldn't cars check to see if the tile ahead of them is allocated?
19:27<ccfreak2k>It won't solve all the problems, but at least a few.
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>someone attempted to make a patch like that
19:28<SmatZ>it would cause jams, too
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>but that doesn't consider (longer) articulated vehicles
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know if he got anywhere
19:29<@Rubidium>and it won't consider crossing - road+ - crossing with a traffic jam
19:29<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause> someone attempted to make a patch like that <-- "someone", being you? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=46091
19:29-!-lobstar [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: no, other patch
19:29<thingwath>Is there some pathfinder setting to make road vehicles avoid crossings at any cost?
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: someone tried to make vehicles check if they would get stuck on the rail
19:30<PeterT>How did that work out?
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>you seriously need to work on your reading comprehension
19:31<@Rubidium>thingwath: not "at any cost", but yes there is (at least for YAPF)
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19:31<@Rubidium>and with that I mean that if a level crossing is the only option it will take it
19:31<thingwath>That's exactly what I hoped for :)
19:32<@Rubidium>or if the detour is ridiciously long, i.e twice around the map or so
19:32<ccfreak2k>"I could die...but the other route takes soooo long..."
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19:34<ccfreak2k>Hmm.
19:35<ccfreak2k>Depending on the memory and software requrements, it may be theoretically possible to run openttd on the gamecube.
19:36<@Rubidium>I see no reason why it wouldn't work
19:36<SmatZ>it is able to run linux
19:36<SmatZ>so there is some crosscompiler for it
19:37<SmatZ>43 MB RAM not much
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>should be fine
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>except for huge maps
19:37<ccfreak2k>Well, SDL has been ported to devkitppc, so removing any of the OS-specific bits should make it work.
19:38<ccfreak2k>Then it just has to run in full-screen all the time.
19:38<@Rubidium>SmatZ: but it 'works' on the NDS which has 4 MB of RAM and a 67 MHz CPU
19:38<ccfreak2k>I'd also have to adapt it to controller control.
19:38<SmatZ>Rubidium: very true :)
19:38<@Rubidium>a Gamecube has a whopping 486 MHz CPU and almost eleven times as much memory
19:39<ccfreak2k>Rubidium, PPC even, so it's probably closer to a 600MHz Intel chip.
19:39<@Rubidium>ccfreak2k: NDS is ARM
19:39<ccfreak2k>Gamecube is PPC.
19:39<@Rubidium>that I know
19:39<@Rubidium>but comparing to Intel is totally stupid
19:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r19000 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Cleanup: remove redundant check
19:40<ccfreak2k>Ok.
19:40<PeterT>1000 revisions to go
19:41<@Rubidium>(or you want to have a factor 2 difference; netburst's IPC vs core's IPC
19:41<ccfreak2k>The painful part is autotools. ./configure will fail when trying to look for sdl-config.
19:41<SmatZ>ccfreak2k: OTTD doesn't use any auto*
19:41<@Rubidium>./configure --with-sdl=/path/to/sdl-conig
19:42<ccfreak2k>There is no sdl-config.
19:42<ccfreak2k>It's just headers + static lib.
19:45<@Rubidium>then write a script that fakes sdl-config
19:45<@Rubidium>that shouldn't be that hard
19:45<ccfreak2k>SmatZ, I really should just shut up and look at the source package then.
19:45<SmatZ>ccfreak2k: hack config.lib ;)
19:45<SmatZ>or create your own sdl-config
19:45<SmatZ>returning what OTTD expects :-p
19:45<SmatZ>easy with a shell script...
19:45*SmatZ got lagged for a while
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19:46<SmatZ>ccfreak2k: no need to be that expressive ;)
19:48<SmatZ>ccfreak2k: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOBsy8KZ_uM what's this?
19:48<devilsadvocate>is ttrs a patch in openttd or should i install ttrs3 assuming i want it? the screenshots look a lot like my buildings...
19:48<SmatZ>I guess one has to know the software used to create it
19:49<devilsadvocate>my as in the ones i see in my game
19:49<ccfreak2k>SmatZ, I made a hard drive in Garry's Mod.
19:49<ccfreak2k>And that's it there.
19:49<SmatZ>devilsadvocate: just download ttrs newgrf via the "Content download" system
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>devilsadvocate: check the "NewGRF Settings" window
19:50<devilsadvocate>SmatZ, i dont see ttrs in the content download list. thats why im not sure if i should or not
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>not all grfs are in the content downloader
19:50<devilsadvocate>oh
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19:51<SmatZ>oh, right
19:51<ccfreak2k>SmatZ, the idea is that the laser intersects with the disc at some point, and the code figures out where on the prop the laser hit and reads from or writes to that part of a giant table.
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>a larger number of grfs can be found on http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net
19:52-!-KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.9.54.134] has quit [Quit: おやすみ]
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>you might also want to check http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/GRF
19:53<SmatZ>ccfreak2k: reading about Garry's Mod makes me want to (re)play half-life (2)
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19:59<SmatZ>ccfreak2k: looks interesting :) reminds me of "OTTD digital counters" :)
20:00<SmatZ>like http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=37902
20:00<PeterT>damn backups
20:00<Eoin>The nightly database backup is currently running
20:00<SmatZ>hehe
20:00<Eoin>Bad timing
20:00<SmatZ>[01:59:58] <SmatZ>
20:00<SmatZ>you had two seconds!
20:01<ccfreak2k>Is there any particular reason why the forum can't be read-only during backup time, other than the fact that a 10 minute window might not even be worth it?
20:01<SmatZ>ask orudge
20:01<SmatZ>but I guess this is easier solution than patching phpbb and zillion places
20:01<Eoin>as it would backup slower
20:01<Eoin>If its read only
20:02<Eoin>people are still reading
20:02<Eoin>means backup is slower
20:02<Eoin>i guess
20:03<PeterT>SmatZ: Wrong. [20:00:04] <SmatZ> like http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=37902
20:03<Eoin>No PeterT
20:03<Eoin>thats american lag
20:04<PeterT>you're american lag!
20:05<@Rubidium>Eoin: reading the forum does database modifications too, e.g. the read count and such
20:05<Eoin>aye
20:06<Eoin>so basically easier to just not let anyone read
20:09<SmatZ>don't (all) databases allow on-line backup?
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>only if they're transactional
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20:10<Eoin>its back u
20:10<SmatZ>true
20:10<@Rubidium>and getting a proper backup of a database that is being modified is far from trivial
20:10<SmatZ>I have no clue what database background is used at tt-forums
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20:15<Eoin>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=94069
20:15<Eoin>someone made an OpenTTD ALU
20:15<Eoin>my god
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>yay... a court decided that legal documents sent by email and blocked by a spamfilter is legally considered "delivered"
20:15<Eoin>lol
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>oh the logic gates... those were fun times
20:16<SmatZ>hehe
20:16<Eoin>self regulating networks
20:16<Eoin>nice
20:16<SmatZ>[02:15:33] <Eddi|zuHause> yay... a court decided that legal documents sent by email and blocked by a spamfilter is legally considered "delivered" <== we can expect similiar case here as well
20:17<ccfreak2k>Eoin, and he mowed down two towns to make it.
20:17<Eoin>lol
20:17<SmatZ>though... one has to login often enough to his "data storage" to see new messages
20:17<SmatZ>so it's different case
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: it's totally realistic to destroy entire towns/villages
20:20<Eoin>if people can do that via trains
20:20<Eoin>cant we get it actually IN the game
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>for example for open coal mines or hydro-power
20:21<ccfreak2k>Or to create a digital logic circuit?
20:21<Eoin>im sure china will one day
20:21<SmatZ>hehe
20:22<ccfreak2k>I hate makefiles.
20:22<ccfreak2k>>:(
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>a logic circuit the size of a large city...
20:23<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: it wasn't unrealistic ~75 years ago
20:23<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: a large warehouse, maybe
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>"Leibnitz discovered the binary system during a conversation with his mother"
20:25<Eddi|zuHause>"yes... no... no... yes... no..."
20:25<SmatZ>hehehe
20:25<SmatZ>exactly my thoughts :)
20:26<SmatZ>"ENIAC contained 17,468 vacuum tubes, 7,200 crystal diodes, 1,500 relays, 70,000 resistors, 10,000 capacitors and around 5 million hand-soldered joints."
20:26<SmatZ>I would expect far less
20:27<PeterT>off to go reinstall Ubuntu
20:27<PeterT>bye all
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20:27<SmatZ>given 4004 consists of 2300 transistors
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>Ubuntu really is the new windows...
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>now it even needs reinstalls...
20:28<Eoin>lol
20:28-!-Aali [~aali@h-90-31.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:28<SmatZ>hehe
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: the transistor was a huge technology jump
20:28<SmatZ>"The short ton is a unit of weight equal to 2,000 pounds (907.18474 kg).[1] In the United States it is often called simply ton[1] without distinguishing it from the metric ton (tonne, 1,000 kilograms) or the long ton (2,240 pounds/1,016.0469088 kilograms); rather, the other two are specifically noted. There are, however, some U.S. applications for which unspecified tons normally means long tons (for example, Navy ships)[2] or metric tons (world grain
20:28<SmatZ>production figures)."
20:28<SmatZ>metric system ftw...
20:29<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but how is transistor different from vacuum tubes?
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not exactly sure how a vacuum tube works
20:31<ccfreak2k>Vacuum tubes are also much larger.
20:31<Eddi|zuHause>plus, back then they might not have had as universal instruction sets
20:31<Eddi|zuHause>or ENIAC had more capabilities than a 4004
20:31<ccfreak2k>I'm guessing the latter.
20:31<SmatZ>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triode
20:31<Eddi|zuHause>or did you mean a 4040?
20:31<ccfreak2k>ENIAC was also application-specific.
20:32<ccfreak2k>Unlike the 4004, which was more than likely general-purpose.
20:32<ccfreak2k>And low-end too.
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20:33<SmatZ>well, both are turing-complete :)
20:33<SmatZ>but yes, I understand your arguments
20:34<SmatZ>modern CPUs are also turing-complete, and have tens of thousands transistors
20:34<SmatZ>just to be faster
20:34<thingwath>4004 isn't a complete computer, while ENIAC was at least supposed to be one.
20:35<SmatZ>right, it's incomparable :)
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, you don't have memory or peripherial devices on the 4004
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20:55<ccfreak2k>sdl_sound looks like it compiles into a couple of different libs.
20:55<ccfreak2k>Or it links them together into libSDL_sound.a.
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20:56*SmatZ doesn't know
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20:59<ccfreak2k>sdl-config appears to be just a shell script.
20:59<ccfreak2k>That makes things easy.
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21:00<SmatZ> /usr/bin/sdl-config: POSIX shell script text executable
21:00<SmatZ>right :)
21:01<SmatZ>and quite short
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22:30<ccfreak2k>Bonus: my GameCube has a network adapter, so if openttd somehow magically works, I can go online with it.
22:30<ccfreak2k>As long as I don't run out of memory, heh.
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 04 00:00:17 2010