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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-02-06

---Logopened Sat Feb 06 00:00:18 2010
00:12<ccfreak2k>This is worlds better than guess -> compile -> run -> repeat
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02:40<Terkhen>good morning
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03:33<andythenorth>TrueBrain / Rubidium are the css files for the website under svn control? I can't find them in my checkout anywhere :o
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03:46<Bluelight>Man, I'm going to bed.. :p
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03:48<@Rubidium>andythenorth: I for sure hope it's somewhere in the svn repository (i.e. backed up)
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03:51<andythenorth>Rubidium: I've searched my local repo, no css files. I have everything from svn:// checked out as far as I know
03:52*roboboy leaves
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04:18*andythenorth now understands just enough openttd code to try and do stupid things
04:19<Eddi|zuHause>that's excellent progress ;)
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>i wanted to reply to something, but i forgot it...
04:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19025 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Rename DrawSmallMapStuff() to DrawSmallMapColumn().
04:25<Eddi|zuHause>but functions with "Stuff" in their name are cool :p
04:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19026 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Move a constant computation out of the loop.
04:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: perhaps you forgot about some kind of industry tile patch you were writing :o
04:27<Alberth>functions with DoIt() too.
04:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19027 /trunk/src/landscape.h: -Doc: Document RemapCoords functions.
04:35<andythenorth>I've found most of the industry tile code, but I can't see the function that destroys the entire industry when one or more industry tiles is cleared?
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04:37<ccfreak2k>Maybe the industry tiles become orphaned if one of the industry tiles is removed.
04:39<andythenorth>but the game would suggest otherwise...when using magic bulldozer on an industry for example
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04:42<ccfreak2k>Just guessing.
04:42<ccfreak2k>Maybe it should be called the "technology bulldozer".
04:44<Alberth>I would expect to find industry removal in the Industry class. (Industry::~Industry() seems to do something like that)
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04:46<andythenorth>Alberth: I think when the game attempts to clear a tile, the tiles industry is removed, then the cleanup loop deals with the tiles later?
04:49<Alberth>Never looked into industry removal, so I at best I am doing an educated guess: When deleting a tile, it finds it is an industry tile, it finds the industry, and does 'delete i' which removes all traces of the industry. But please verify this in the code.
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04:49<andythenorth>looks something like that
04:50<Alberth>leaving industry tiles around that do not belong to some industry is way too complicated and fragile
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04:51<andythenorth>appears all tiles that belong to the industry have animation removed and are marked dirty, except for a special case for oil rig
04:51<Terkhen>andythenorth: you can also grep where the magic bulldozer cheat is checked, since industries can't be removed by the player without it
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>/* MakeWaterKeepingClass() doesn't remove animation if the tiles
04:52<Eddi|zuHause> * become watery, but be on the safe side an always remote it. */
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't make any sense
04:52<Alberth>why don't you enlarge the tile-area that is checked for being clear, before building a new industry?
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>in src/industry_cmd.cpp:153-ish
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in "ClearTile_Industry" you should probably start
04:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yup
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>"delete i;" <-
04:54<andythenorth>Alberth: I am trying to kill two birds with one stone, probably a bad idea
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>that destroys the industry
04:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: thanks
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>it calls Industry::~Industry()
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>where it then loops over all industry-tiles and removes them
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04:55<Alberth>andythenorth: I can imagine that different users want different amounts of clear space around the industry, that sounds complicated to realize in a grf to me (but you probably know that MUCH better than me)
04:56<andythenorth>Alberth: it would be easy to provide in a grf with a 'clearance' tile such as 0xFF
04:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: maybe add an action 0 property that changes the behaviour of tile 0xFF
04:57<andythenorth>I think 0xFF could be extended easily to work on land, or another 'magic' tile provided ....0xFE
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>claiming another ID might be problematic
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>as industry sets _might_ be already using them
04:58<andythenorth>yup, the action 0 prop is an interesting suggestion
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>so it would require a jump to grf version 8
04:58<andythenorth>wonder if I can just use the 'this industry is built on water' flag that exists on the industry?
04:59<andythenorth>check that, then do a different check for tile 0xFF depending on result
04:59<Alberth>andythenorth: the disadvantage of that solution is that not all industry sets provide such tiles, ie it gives a partial solution.
04:59<Eddi|zuHause>for a quick hack, yes, but for the specs, probably not
05:00<andythenorth>Alberth: true
05:00<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. things like coastal resort hotels might check for water 0xFF, without being built on water themselves
05:02<andythenorth>Alberth: I think having the game check a larger tile area has other problems
05:03<andythenorth>for example town industries don't require a buffer zone
05:03<andythenorth>hmmm. this is a thorny problem :|
05:04<Alberth>If it was easy, RB would have solved it already ;)
05:05<andythenorth>I think modifying the tile 0xFF check is the most likely solution to work. I know it looks like something the game should do on behalf of grf authors, but I don't think it can.
05:06<andythenorth>Adding clearance tiles to layouts is no drama.
05:07<andythenorth>I would have to add them to about 150 layouts, so I wondered be suggesting it if it was unworkable from the nfo side :o
05:07<andythenorth>wouldn't /s
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05:08<ccfreak2k>Do any of you have experience with remote debugging with gdb?
05:09<Alberth>I just started thinking about, so for me it is too early to draw any conclusion.
05:10<Alberth>Town industries do seem to need a different handling
05:10<Alberth>as for NFO, we need some form of tools to lift the abstraction level there
05:10<Alberth>unfortunately, another complicated problem
05:11<andythenorth>what would you have in mind for nfo abstraction in this case?
05:11*Alberth ponders whether making a specialized tool for a single type of nfo would be any good
05:12<andythenorth>if it's a drag and drop GUI to make industry layouts on a nice grid, then I would welcome that :P
05:12<Alberth>I don't have anything in mind. I never did any NFO coding, so I have not the faintest clue of the issues there
05:13<andythenorth>the issues are manageable. Code gets written. Those that can't write it usually have very bad ideas anyway.
05:13<andythenorth>nfo is a quality filter for newgrf sets
05:14*andythenorth is having trouble separating the industry 'clearance' issue from a desire to plant animated tiles around an industry (like fields, but with different graphics)
05:14<andythenorth>looks like the two things should get solved together, but perhaps not
05:14<andythenorth>conflation of concerns :|
05:16<Alberth>we'd need to have two patches anyway :p
05:16<andythenorth>a new tile type is out of the question I suppose?
05:17<Yexo>why would you need a new tile type?
05:18<andythenorth>probably because I don't understand existing tiles enough :o
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05:27*andythenorth tries to understand if the graphics for clear tiles of class farmland could be exposed to newgrf.....looks like the routine for drawing fields is highly bespoke
05:29*Alberth just learned a new word from andythenorth
05:29<Alberth>yes, all code is :)
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05:33<TrueBrain>andythenorth: no, CSS files are at, which is not in SVN
05:33*andythenorth thinks that when an industry 'plants' a 'field', it could copy the necessary graphics 'stuff' into the tile from a tile definition local to the industry (I'll call it the graphics 'stuff' action 2,, 3 etc because that's the only name I know for it)
05:33<Yexo>andythenorth: there are enough free bits in the clear tile type to make that possible
05:35<andythenorth>TrueBrain: thanks - might ask about that later!
05:39<roboboy>hm acording to wikipedia a new company has been added to the confusion of the MicroProse rights ownership
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05:45<TrueBrain>roboboy: what confusion?
05:50<roboboy>well we do not deffinatively know who owns the rights, we have a good idea but its not definate
05:50<TrueBrain>really? Lol! That would be new ...
05:50<TrueBrain>I know for a sure fact who has the distribution rights
05:50<TrueBrain>mostly as I have seen the exception they made for one instance, and waves any distirbution cost for distribution of the files for a certain event
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05:56<__ln__>roboboy: *definitely, *definite
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05:58<TrueBrain>for Dune2 I have a much harder time tracking the owner ... found the owner of Dune, but that is about it ... all requests forms bounce with: we do not own it :(
05:59<TrueBrain>or even who has distribution rights for that matter ...
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06:10<TrueBrain>andythenorth: you should really test your HTML before you publish it :)
06:10<TrueBrain>hehe :)
06:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r19028 /extra/website/bananas/ (templates/bananas/manager.html [Website] -Add: a total amount of downloads per release for BaNaNaS (based on patch by andythenorth)
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06:20<@Rubidium>ooh... party!
06:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r19029 /extra/website/bananas/ [Website] -Change: use another method of generating BaNaNaS filenames, which is a bit more sane
06:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r19030 /extra/website/bananas/ [Website] -Add: add versions 0.7.3 till 0.7.5 in BaNaNaS version selection
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06:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r19031 /extra/website/bananas/templates/bananas/ (7 files): [Website] -Add: add a HTTP download links for all files, by clicking on the Download link
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06:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r19032 /extra/website/bananas/templates/bananas/index.html: [Website] -Fix (r19031): forgot one place to link to http
06:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r19033 /extra/website/frontpage/templates/frontpage/links.html: [Website] -Add: links of who is hosting which mirror
06:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r19034 /extra/website/frontpage/templates/frontpage/about.html: [Website] -Change: mark that Mac OS X is no longer supported for the 1.0.0 series
06:26<andythenorth>TrueBrain: testing html == over-rated. Fire, forget, hope not to have to fix :D
06:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r19035 /extra/website/templates/header.html: [Website] -Fix: BaNaNaS Base [Graphic|Sound|Music] is now grouped under Base Replacements
06:26<TrueBrain>andythenorth: overrated, maybe. But it was wrong too ;)
06:26<TrueBrain>'align=right' for example does not work
06:28<TrueBrain>okay, that syncs most website changes
06:28<TrueBrain>long overdue
06:30<andythenorth>align='right' should work - is it deprecated against the DTD we're using or something?
06:30<TrueBrain>XHTML ;)
06:30<andythenorth>If the css was available I'd do that properly :)
06:30<TrueBrain>this way it is solved too
06:31<TrueBrain>it didn't look that nice, even not when aligned right
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06:38<jonty-comp>pfft, html is supposed to be wrong
06:38<jonty-comp>otherwise they wouldn't make it so difficult to break it
06:38*jonty-comp has never ran a validator on his company's website, because he doesn't want to break the validation server
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>hehe ;)
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06:40<Alberth>jonty-comp: just a single page is probably enough to prove that the site is not compliant :)
06:41<jonty-comp>the index page is probably the most complex
06:41<jonty-comp>oh ho, only 10 errors
06:41<jonty-comp>and 79 warnings :p
06:41<jonty-comp>but that's against HTML4
06:42<jonty-comp>actually, most of those errors are easy to fix
06:42*jonty-comp considers spending 10 minutes on them
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: "Typ: text/x-unknown-content-type"?
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06:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm imagining an industry callback that gets as parameter the industry-id (if valid) and the industry type. the callback result is a SpriteID to be displayed
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>and maybe a second animation-like callback
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06:48<Eddi|zuHause>the industry type needs to be stored in the (clear/farm) tile
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>the callback is called each tileloop
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>industry-id is invalid if the industry has been closed
06:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the greeble tile still needs to know what graphics to display after the industry has been closed. it can't rely on the industry being present
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: exactly, that's what the industry type is for
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>callback (invalid industry-id, valid industry-type) -> handle deleted industry
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06:52<andythenorth>I did have 'store industry type' in my proposal but I deleted it :o
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06:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r19036 /extra/website/bananas/ (12 files in 2 dirs): [Website] -Fix: don't link to files via http:// in BaNaNaS web interface if they are not yet on the webserver/mirrors
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06:54<WhiteDog>hi guys, i installed beta 4 and it downloaded the opensfx, but in-game it's grayed out and set to "nosound". How can i fix that?
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: currently, that is hardcoded for farm tiles: "if industry-id is valid, grow normally, else finish growth cycle and then disappear"
06:54<WhiteDog>i also can't select Euro as currency, also grayed out :)
06:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yep, saw that
06:54<andythenorth>how does having the industry type actually work for us?
06:55<Alberth>WhiteDog: some seetings can only be changed from the intro-screen
06:55<WhiteDog>k thx :)
06:55<WhiteDog>i'll give it a try
06:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: bear in mind I don't really understand the internals too much....if there is no industry instance, how does the game use action 2 stuff?
06:55<andythenorth>or action 0 etc
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: like unbuilt vehicles from the vehicle buy window, some variables are not accessible in that case
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>all action0 data is constant for all industries of the same type (i believe), so that can be accessed
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>but things like build date and animation state cannot be accessed
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07:01<andythenorth>so this proposal looks about we code it...together! :)
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07:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: code-wise, stuff from IndustrySpec is accessible without a specific Industry instance
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07:03<andythenorth>TrueBrain: nice bananas update :)
07:04<TrueBrain>well, only now the mirror system is how it should be, from that point of view anyway
07:04<Alberth>thank you for your efforts
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07:05<TrueBrain>now I believe we can say 1.0.0 won't kill our bandwidth instanctly :p
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07:05<TrueBrain>it sucks .. 2 weeks ago 2 ISPs emailed that they wanted to mirror our stuff .. never got a reply back after my reply on that :(
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07:08<Alberth>your bag of money was too empty probably.
07:08<TrueBrain>I guess
07:08<TrueBrain>depleted, I would say
07:10<TrueBrain>`' saved [7777/7777]
07:10<TrueBrain>hahahaha :)
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i now have a lap cat
07:12*jonty-comp sits and watches his server thrash about a bit for no apparent reason
07:13<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: Obviously the best place in the house, lying on a nicely warm human, getting some attention from the human as well.
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07:15<jonty-comp>you'd think they'd think it through when they make a currency datatype in access
07:15<jonty-comp>but currency is certainly not "Pack Price (ex VAT): �35.9639990472794"
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07:17<Nite_Owl>Hello all
07:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: wouldn't it be more useful for a 'greeble' tile to store the industry tile ID?
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>no, it has nothing to do with industry tiles
07:18<andythenorth>the industry tiles will provide the graphics definition....
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>no, the industry callback will do that
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07:20<Eddi|zuHause>the industry has two callbacks:
07:20<andythenorth>(I am thinking primarily nfo side)....there is no way I know of for an industry to return graphics for a tile. It must return a tile ID, for which the tile's action 2 / 3 / realsprite chain then determines graphics...
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>Callback1(IndustryID, IndustryType, AnimationState) => SpriteID
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>Callback2(IndustryID, IndustryType, AnimationState) => next AnimationState
07:20<andythenorth>ok, so returning a sprite ID does make sense
07:22<andythenorth>but it means the industry will need an awful lot of code to deal with tile slopes, special cases for neighbouring tiles etc. Seems like that should be handled via the existing tile methods for those things :)
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not familiar with industry-NFO
07:22<andythenorth>okey dokey
07:22<andythenorth>I'm not familiar with Openttd trunk :)
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>well, adding TileH to a spriteid should be fairly simple, if the need arises
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly confident, NFO can do that during a varaction2 chain
07:24<andythenorth>but I can't see how the sprite ID it returns can reference a sprite that doesn't exist?
07:24<andythenorth> the sprite is not defined anywhere, only built-in game sprites (or OpenGFX sprites) would be available :o
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>hm, maybe it needs some Action 1 somewhere
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it's better to return an IndustryTile ID
07:25<asilv>would it make more sense for callback to return action2 id, instead sprite
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>and then run a callback for that
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, i'm not familiar with industry-NFO
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07:28<andythenorth>right now I'm am probably the most familiar-with-industry-nfo person on the planet :o
07:28<andythenorth>unless someone is secretly coding some other large industry set :P
07:28<andythenorth>I still ask for a lot of help though :)
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07:30<Eddi|zuHause>asking for help is not a problem ;)
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>asking for the same kind of help multiple times is :p
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07:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so the attraction of re-using the industry tiles is....they do everything we need: animation, shape checks, custom stuff
07:33<andythenorth>they just need to appear to the game as a 'clear' tile when built as greeble
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>so, the industry returns an industrytile (that is probably not used in any industry layout otherwise)
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07:35<Eddi|zuHause>and the industrytile does the appearance and animation callbacks
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>it must also handle special cases for when the industry was deleted
07:36<andythenorth>whether the tile is used elsewhere is the grf author's problem
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07:36<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I believe that the existing routine for handling deletion of fields would mostly work as is
07:37<andythenorth>if industry id is invalid, clean up the tiles...
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, but it does not clean them up immediately
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>it must still do the appearance and animation callbacks, until the animation callback says "repeat cycle" [or something]
07:38<andythenorth>that's why I think that the industry tile ID stuff needs to be 'copied' into the clean tile
07:38<andythenorth>it must be decoupled by the industry
07:38<andythenorth>decoupled from the industry sorry
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07:39<Eddi|zuHause>the industry might even be able to choose whether to clean up the tiles at all
07:39<andythenorth>in my plan, the tile is just seen by the game as 'clean tile (farmland)', and the tile knows how to apply the right graphics
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, while the industry is around, that is probably no problem at all
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>when the industry closes, the grf coder should have three choices: a) clean up the tiles "immediately" [i.e. when the next tileloop touches them], b) finish animation cycle and clean them afterwards [what farm fields currently do] or c) let them stick around forever
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07:43<Eddi|zuHause>and if you've come this far, you can think about a periodical Callback3 => area where to "plant" fields
07:43<ccfreak2k>Do either of you know anything about video drivers for SDL?
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>i thought sdl should totally abstract from the driver level?
07:44<ccfreak2k>It does, but internally there's drivers to interface with different systems.
07:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I like those three choices
07:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: area to plant? how would that be specified?
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: dunno...
07:45<andythenorth>neg / pos offsets x and y? radius?
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>rectangles typically have 4 coordinates, in openttd currently up to 11 bit
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07:46<Eddi|zuHause>that makes 44 bit
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>or you return single tiles and it reruns the callback until you say "stop"
07:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: truebrain * r19037 /extra/balancer/ (7 files): [Balancer] -Add: the source code of our httpd running at
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>then you can do lines, circles, spirals, rectangles as you like
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07:48<Eddi|zuHause>but really, i believe that should be discussed at a later point
07:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I agree
07:51<andythenorth>it's probably trivial for me to provide a test grf for this...the openttd side....I wouldn't quite know where to start
07:51<andythenorth>I suppose we start with a spec though
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07:54<TrueBrain>all good things start with a draft ;)
07:56<@Rubidium>heh, I already know I wasn't good... no need to reinforce that thought
07:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19038 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Move TileArea methods to their own file.
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07:56<Alberth>but before a draft come a few experiments to understand the problem
07:57<TrueBrain>don't think in problems; think in solutions
07:58<@Rubidium>aqua regia! :)
07:58<Alberth>if one of these experiments solves the whole challenge, a draft is obsolete before you write it
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>water rules?
08:01<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: more like "king's water"
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that sounds awfully close to "the prototype runs, let's ship it"
08:01<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: and that sounds a lot like my day job
08:02<jonty-comp>that is my day job
08:02<andythenorth>when we ship the prototype, we get paid, which means we can make payroll....which means happier developers
08:02<jonty-comp>oh, buggermuffins, I forgot to start the program in safe mode
08:02<@Rubidium>that sounds as if bug reports are handled by different developers
08:03*jonty-comp goes to get a coffee while it runs its automated routine
08:03<andythenorth>hey there might be two years of technical debt in fixing the prototype...but at least I got to pay everyone!
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08:04<Eddi|zuHause>as long as you can charge extra for bug fixing :p
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08:05<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ummm....if only :|
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08:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19039 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Feature: Add zoom-out to smallmap.
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08:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19040 /trunk/src/ (landscape.h smallmap_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Introduce inverse function of RemapCoords.
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08:19<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19041 /trunk/src/ (smallmap_gui.cpp tilearea.cpp tilearea_type.h): -Codechange: Improve selection of tile to draw in zoomed-out smallmaps.
08:21<TrueBrain>go Alberth go Alberth
08:21<TrueBrain>you think, TrueBrain can do a commit spree, I can do that too? :p
08:22<PeterT>Thanks Alberth for r19039 :-)
08:22<PeterT>quite a useful feature
08:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19042 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Add: Allow mousewheel zooming in smallmap.
08:22<PeterT>and r19042!
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08:24<Alberth>TrueBrain: I try to spree commits, but I am not quite as good as you are, I have run out of patches :p
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08:29<Eddi|zuHause>there are plenty of patches in the development forum
08:29<TrueBrain>lets randomly commit those :)
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure you can squeeze a couple dozen more commits out of the cargodist repo :p
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>has any dev reviewed the more height levels patch?
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08:33<andythenorth>did Terkhen's map colour patch make it into trunk?
08:36*andythenorth can't compile for OS X....will macports save the day :o
08:36<TrueBrain>does it ever?
08:37<andythenorth>TrueBrain: not this time by the looks of it
08:38*andythenorth now needs to learn about lzo2
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: people have been coming to the conclusion that it's easier to compile --without-lzo2
08:39*andythenorth joins the crowd in that
08:39<mib_4tlbyr>Eddi|zuHouse: More height levels patch is not yet reviewed by devs as it is still at 90% of completion. Will it ever hit trunk? Even if it does not the patch will be finished.
08:39<Alberth>alternatively, you install the lib in a findable place by ./configure, and forget all about it
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08:39<TrueBrain>Alberth: nah, that would be a sane thing to do!
08:40<Alberth>oh, of course. Silly me
08:41<mib_4tlbyr>andythenorth: If you mean the town ratings colours path by terkhen ... no it has not.
08:41<andythenorth>I meant configurable colours for industry mini-map
08:42<Terkhen>andythenorth: first I should recode it, it was written too quickly
08:42<Terkhen>I have been wondering if I should include more colour schemes besides dark green
08:43<PeterT>That is what andythenorth is talking about
08:44<mib_4tlbyr>andythenorth: OK. Also, I sent you a pm yesterday about industry seperation on mapgeneration, I missed you by a few minutes on here.
08:45<mib_4tlbyr>PeterT: Thank you.
08:45<andythenorth>Terkhen: I like all of purple, grey and green. They all have their appeal ;)
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08:47<andythenorth>mib_4tlbyr: yep got the pm thanks. I considered that. Think it would work generally, but not sure for every case....let me see if I can find some of the crazy examples....
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08:49<mib_4tlbyr>It should work on any occasion no ? industries do not check for a free rectangle before being build? I could be wrong ...
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08:54<Terkhen>I'll think about grey, it looks nice but it conflicts with rail colour (and possibly others); that would require more changes
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09:03<rait>has anyone tried compiling with visual studio 2010 beta?
09:03<PeterT>Rubidum has
09:04<rait>did it work?
09:04<PeterT>I *really* wouldn't suggest updating
09:04<PeterT>no, it failed miserabley
09:04<PeterT>there was a picture here:
09:04<@Rubidium>yes, not without major problems
09:04<PeterT>but it seems Rubidium already took it off
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09:30<Wakou>Hello folks!
09:30<PeterT>Hello Wakou
09:31<Wakou>First time here, just having a nose about..
09:32<PeterT>Ok :-)
09:32<Wakou>I have been trying to start a game in 1920, but rail and ship condtruction are greyed out, how do I get trains from before 1950?
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09:32<Wakou>I have r18964M
09:33<Wakou>which grfs in particular?
09:34<Wakou>Ok I have UKRS, I will try to load it back in..(after the Rugby mebbe :) )
09:34<Wakou>TY PeterT
09:35<PeterT>welcome Wakou
09:35<PeterT>Wakou: ?
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09:39<andythenorth>Wakou: FISH will give you ships from 1870....
09:39<Wakou>TY I have it working now, can't add it retrospective to a saved game?
09:39<PeterT>You can add it to a running game
09:40<Wakou>I tried , but rail is still greyed out
09:41<Wakou>Woot! TY folks, got it now...
09:42<PeterT>Terkhen: You removed _all_ of your batch scripts??
09:42<PeterT>I actually needed the readme.txt to get the GNU tools for something else :-(
09:43<Terkhen>you can get them from the svn
09:44<PeterT>the readme.txt doesn't have that link
09:44<PeterT>or the list of GNU Tools need :-(
09:45<PeterT>there it is :-)
09:45<Terkhen>mind what I said at the howto apply a patch thread
09:45<PeterT>Thansk Terkhen
09:46<PeterT>I see
09:46<Terkhen>you are welcome
09:46<PeterT>also, I'm not using the scripts right now, I just need the GNU Tools for unix2dos on the make_bundle
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09:53<rait>is there any magic related to vc2008 and x64? mine doesn't seem to do x64
09:54<jonty-comp>do you have the express version
09:54<PeterT>Express versions don't have it
09:54<jonty-comp>mine threw a hissy fit when I tried to compile x64
09:54<PeterT>Just get VS Pro
09:54<PeterT>Very expensive though
09:54<jonty-comp>apparently it's possible, but you have to hack it to pieces and rebuild it as a functioning member of society
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>there's a magic trick for express
09:55<jonty-comp>Microsoft products have lots of magic tricks
09:55<jonty-comp>I couldn't be bothered to work on it though, the x64 version offers little benefit
09:55<jonty-comp>(well, if offers benefits, but I didn't deem it worth the bother :p)
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09:57<Eddi|zuHause>some programs have bugs, some programs have undocumented features, and some programs are from microsoft
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09:58<valhallasw>they have no bugs because of the brilliant programmers and no undocumented features because the EU would sue them to death.
09:58<valhallasw>or... wasn't that what you meant? :p
09:59<TrueBrain>no, the bugs are features
10:00<rait>there's no way i'm paying $300 for it. so ... cross-compiling?
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10:01<TrueBrain>rait: why do you want x64 for windows anyway? :)
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10:02<rait>no reason, just like the sound of it
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10:02<PeterT>I would love to be able to service both win32 and x64 users, but Express doesn't allow it, and MSVCPro breaks when I try to install it
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>[Mittwoch, 3. Februar 2010] [23:31:24] <glx>
10:03<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: That doesn't work
10:03<PeterT>I don't have the registry value they asked for
10:04<+glx>that works
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10:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19043 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Doc: Dcoumenting the GetSmallMapPixels typedef.
10:19<jonty-comp>can't you compile x64 in mingw?
10:19<PeterT>yes, you can
10:19<PeterT>but you don't get any useful crashlogs
10:19<jonty-comp>I suppose
10:20<PeterT>also, jonty-comp, I reset the server at #jonty
10:20<TrueBrain>mingw x64 support is very ... euh ... ongoing :p
10:21<TrueBrain>only last year that they started to add it
10:21<TrueBrain>somehow they thought it wouldn't catch on :p
10:22<jonty-comp>sounds like wine x64
10:22<TrueBrain>feb 2009 to be exact
10:23<andythenorth>do the bananas download counts need to include the string 'times'? It's kind of redundant; the number would do...
10:23<TrueBrain>andythenorth: only the number is not really clear nor intuitive
10:23<andythenorth>I suppose if you have scrolled the page you don't see the th anymore
10:24<andythenorth>well, to UK eyes, comma-thousands would improve that. but that doesn't work for all locales? Some people use different separators?
10:24<TrueBrain>for a website that is not important
10:24<TrueBrain>but that would not solve the problem
10:25<TrueBrain>if there was only a number, you would need to look up to the header to see what it means
10:25<TrueBrain>now you make a simple assumption, which turns out to be true
10:25<andythenorth>no....leaving 'times' present is fine, I just wanted to improve the formatting :)
10:25<TrueBrain>you said: 'would improve _that_' ;)
10:25<andythenorth>my mistake
10:25<andythenorth>typing before thinking!
10:25<TrueBrain>but a thousand seperator can be added yes ;)
10:26<andythenorth>django might support that 'out of the box' from what I was reading earlier
10:26<jonty-comp>ooh, 7 IPv6 servers
10:26*jonty-comp nitpicks
10:27<andythenorth>also, right-align for numbers might be better, even with the 'times' suffix present...
10:27<jonty-comp>the "Download testing (1.0.0-beta4)" goes outside its bounding box my a pixel!
10:27<jonty-comp>in webkit
10:27<TrueBrain>andythenorth: django has something for that, yes
10:27<TrueBrain>jonty-comp: then lets hope we release 1.0.0 soon
10:27<andythenorth>any chance of bringing the website css under svn control?
10:27<TrueBrain>or RC1
10:27<TrueBrain>andythenorth: very little atm
10:28<andythenorth>I suppose inline css on tags / css defined in the page is bad form?
10:28<jonty-comp>TrueBrain: surely then the testing release will soon be 1.0.1-beta1 or whatever :P
10:28<TrueBrain>andythenorth: a diff for the css files would be better
10:28<andythenorth>seems reasonable
10:28<TrueBrain>jonty-comp: did you know every day there is another background image on the index page?
10:29*andythenorth has to choose whether to (a) try and learn some more C++ to improve industry separation or (b) write some more html / css which I've been doing for 10 years :o
10:30<TrueBrain>I do both for almost 15 years now .. can I suggest neither?
10:30<andythenorth>only if you've got a better suggestion....
10:30*jonty-comp backs the 'neither' suggestion
10:30<TrueBrain>OpenDUNE! :p
10:30<TrueBrain>haha :)
10:30<jonty-comp>and I've been doing both of them for 2 years!
10:30<TrueBrain>of course my correct answer should have been: html /css
10:33<andythenorth>I've probably got more chance of success with that
10:33<andythenorth>but this bugs me:
10:33<valhallasw>I suggest learning IDL. Or R. Both are very effective in making you suicidal.
10:34<TrueBrain>valhallasw: IDL is not that bad .... try IRAF :p
10:34<TrueBrain>andythenorth: image looks nice :)
10:35<rait>asdf the registry keys don't exist
10:35<andythenorth>does this surprisingly often (one industry fills the gaps in another - the gaps are for stations)
10:36<valhallasw>TrueBrain: oh, yeah. I switched to pyraf.
10:36<valhallasw>which is the usefulness of iraf minus the free suicide notes
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10:38*Terkhen should change his ISP
10:39<Ammler>andythenorth: isn't that "solved" with using fewer industries on map generation?
10:40<Zuu>Does anyone know a button that change sprite when they get pressed? WWT_IMGBTN_2 is supposed to be like that but I can't find any usage of that feature where you can see how the second sprite is set.
10:40<Terkhen>last time I asked no ISP besides my current one had coverage here :/
10:41<Alberth>Zuu: sprite number + 1
10:41<TrueBrain>sucks ....
10:41<Zuu>Alberth: Ok
10:41<Ammler>or it looks like a bug in FIRS, but with all ECS vectors, we were never able to have so many industries that close.
10:41<andythenorth>Ammler: wouldn't it be rude for a newgrf to force players to choose 'very low' for their game options?
10:41<andythenorth>Yes it's a bug....we coded far too many types of industries :|
10:41<Zuu>Alberth: And if you want to have them in reverse, that is not possible?
10:42<andythenorth>I should delete some more industries from FIRS :x
10:42<andythenorth>problem solved
10:42<Alberth>Zuu: only possible if you swap the sprites
10:42<Ammler>hmm, more than all ECS vectors?
10:42<Alberth>Zuu: or you must make a new image button class
10:44<andythenorth>Ammler: this is from a 128x128 map with 'low' industry. Max 1 instance of each type gets built, several aren't built at all
10:44<andythenorth>still the same issue....
10:44<Alberth>Zuu: widget.cpp, line 244
10:44<Zuu>Im trying to make a small toggle button for turning on/off the break string in the AI Debug window. (for my patch) I think it will be most logical to a user if it is in on state when the button is in the lower state.
10:45<Zuu>Alberth: Thanks.
10:45<Ammler>andythenorth: well, why not tell the people to use very low?
10:45<Alberth>Zuu: why not lower the button by default?
10:46<Ammler>andythenorth: don't you think, someone could like to make adjacent industries?
10:46<andythenorth>Ammler: this is from a similar 128x128 map with low
10:46<andythenorth>17 of 36 industries aren't built at all on this map
10:46<Zuu>Hmm, I haven't really decided on how to make the button. I was thinking about (ab)using the vehicle start/stop icon.
10:47*Alberth ponders to add 'none' to industry generation to fix andy his problems
10:47<Ammler>andythenorth: lol, this is a very nice screen
10:47<Zuu>Oh, the stoped sprite is first in the sprites.h file.
10:47<Ammler>openttd does play tetris
10:47<andythenorth>Alberth: I can probably manage that myself: rm firs * or something
10:48<Ammler>andythenorth: you would need to make rm /dev/internet
10:48<Ammler>as there are several copies around the world ;-)
10:48<Zuu>The idea with the button is to be able to temporarily disable the break string so you don't need to clear it.
10:49<Zuu>But it can be made so it is lowered by default. Less changes needed that way.
10:49<Zuu>I don't really know how I would like to make it anyways.. :-)
10:49<Ammler>Alberth: none is already part, btw.
10:49<andythenorth>Ammler: I'm pretty certain that patching magic tile 0xFF will be able to solve the problem :)
10:50<andythenorth>I need to extend the if statements around GFX_WATERTILE_SPECIALCHECK
10:50<Alberth>Ammler: nice, someone was thinking ahead :p
10:50<andythenorth>but I'm worried that there will be an edge case that is insoluble (something to do with coasts)
10:51<Ammler>andythenorth: maybe the difference to ECS is, that there are a lot more clauses about placement
10:51<andythenorth>ECS probably has numerous checks. But ECS is legendarily slow during map generation as well
10:51<andythenorth>PBI can show the same behaviour as FIRS
10:52<Ammler>and I use very low also for ECS
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10:52<Ammler>Alberth: maybe a "really very slow" setting?
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10:54<Ammler>andythenorth: just don't forget the scenario builders ;-)
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10:54<andythenorth>Ammler: :O what do *they* need
10:54<Ammler>for example possibility to place 2 mines close to each other
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10:56<andythenorth>Ammler: If I can find a solution to this separation issue, I'm not going to add special support just for that scenario case. They can lump it frankly :)
10:58<andythenorth>hmmm....maybe there is another way, as suggested by mib_4tlbyr
10:58<Ammler>well, the issue is that player use the wrong generating setting and you like to help those.
10:59<Ammler>but not sure, if that is the issue for the newgrf author.
10:59<andythenorth>Ammler: no, really, the issue is that either the game or the newgrf author need to enforce some separation between industries. The effect occurs at all industry levels except 'none' ;)
10:59<andythenorth>frosch123: I am about to add a bunch of code for enforcing industry separation in FIRS. You were strongly of the opinion that the game should take care of that??
11:00<frosch123>andythenorth: different suggestion, patch GeneratorIndustries and PlaceInitialIndustry to consider the number of industries available
11:00<andythenorth>what implications / effects would that have?
11:01<frosch123>i.e. currently "very low" -> "very low number of industries per type". maybe it should be instead "very low number of industries in total"
11:01<Ammler>FIRS is also not a newgrf for 128² map
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11:02<frosch123>however i do not understand the "number of industries" computation. looks like the densitiy setting has no effect sometimes
11:02<frosch123>very weird piece of code :)
11:02<andythenorth>Ammler: true, but it's hardly a decent set if it forces the player to use a certain: size of map, number of industries, and probably not mountainous or high sea either :|
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11:03<Ammler>frosch123: might it be differ between newgrf industries and default?
11:04<Ammler>andythenorth: it doesn't force the people, but people should accept some consequences the choice has.
11:04<andythenorth>Ammler: such as not being able to construct routes without excessive tunneling :o
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11:05<Ammler>I test with 512² maps, I need to use very low for all industry newgrfs
11:05<andythenorth>no they'll just reject the set. FIRS is intended as a credible replacement for default industries ;)
11:05<Ammler>andythenorth: I once suggested such a economy level ;-)
11:06<andythenorth>Ammler: we'll name that one after you :)
11:06<andythenorth>but it will still place industries overlapping etc.
11:06<frosch123>[17:01] <andythenorth> frosch123: I am about to add a bunch of code for enforcing industry separation in FIRS. You were strongly of the opinion that the game should take care of that?? <- taking a look at your screenshots, quite some of them might need handling by the grf. e.g. the oil wells inside the other industry
11:06<andythenorth>frosch123: I have a plan....
11:07*andythenorth is going to have some tiresome questions about tile var 60
11:07<frosch123>also, reading the specs, they do not mention "water" at all ...
11:07<frosch123>(for 0xFF)
11:07-!-Zahl [~Zahl@2002:4e34:4a84:1:24d4:eaa:669:12fb] has joined #openttd
11:07<andythenorth>frosch123: industry_cmd.cpp
11:07<frosch123>and the .asm ?
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11:10*Ammler just made PBI map with high density, seems not have that effect.
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11:11<Ammler>so it simply depense on the number of different industries?
11:11<frosch123>(amount > NB_NUMOFINDUSTRY) ? amount : _numof_industry_table[_settings_game.difficulty.number_industries][amount] <- those tests look weird to me :)
11:13<PeterT>#openttd is the 5th most populated channel on OFTC
11:14<andythenorth>setting: high
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11:15<PeterT>andythenorth: What size map is that on?
11:15<PeterT>the location_suck_PBI
11:16<andythenorth>256 x 256
11:16<andythenorth>try it in arctic, it's worse due to industries that are snowline sensitive
11:16<andythenorth>PBI is *not* as bad as FIRS though
11:18<Ammler>and pbi doesn't matter anyway, as most industries disapear before you are able to connect them ;-)
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11:19<Ammler>some disapear also if connected...
11:19<Alberth>Ammler: primary industry does that afaik
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11:20<andythenorth>hmmm......all I need is tile 0xFF, but with added control over the placement of that tile via a varaction 2.
11:20<Ammler>the engineer yard does it, too.
11:20<andythenorth>What happens if I modify tile 0xFF in an action 0?
11:21<andythenorth>hmmm...also why can tile 0xFF have negative offsets in an industry layout in action 0, but other tiles can't?
11:22<frosch123>because offset 0 has to be the north-most tile, and 0xFF does not place tiles
11:22<@Rubidium>because for destroying an industry it looks at the northern most tile and then to the south
11:23<andythenorth>makes sense
11:23<andythenorth>I don't want to place tiles, I want to see if tiles *could* be placed :)
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11:27<andythenorth>this would do....
11:27<andythenorth>excuse the syntax etc
11:27<andythenorth>that's industry_cmd.cpp
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11:43*andythenorth punts an idea
11:48<frosch123>fe is a very bad idea :p
11:49<andythenorth>ho. why?
11:49<frosch123>because fe,w is used for new tiles
11:50<andythenorth>is the concept flawed, or just the choice of ID?
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11:54<PeterT>can someone tell me, is this true?
11:57<PeterT>from #OpenTTDMegaClan
11:57<SpComb^>PeterT: not enough context to understand what they're talking about... patching NewGRFs?
11:58<PeterT>"Mega" says that he and others (Luukland's and Ex's) are going to abandon OpenTTD because OpenTTD 1.0.0 is "blocked" from being patch
11:58<PeterT>what patch, I'm not sure
11:58<PeterT>Luukland/Ex's dont give out their source code
11:58<PeterT>which is stupid
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11:59<Ammler>oh well, they have "issues" with the base costs. :-)
11:59<SpComb^>PeterT: I think they're talking about limitations on server-side patches
12:00<frosch123>they have issues with some "fix", see flyspray
12:00<SpComb^>PeterT: i.e. previously, you could change stuff on the server, and it would work on the clients without them being patched
12:00<PeterT>what limitations?
12:00<PeterT>and now you can't?
12:00<PeterT>that's absurd!
12:00<SpComb^>I haven't looked at the changes that much, but there's some changes to savegame/settings loading that make that invalid, I guess
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12:01<SpComb^>I mean, it's still GPL, so you're still free to patch the codebase, and then run the custom version on the server/client
12:01*Ammler likes the changes, advantages overweight
12:01<@Rubidium>ah well... their problem is basically with our new pool code
12:02<PeterT>do you have any idea about which nightly caused this?
12:02<@Rubidium>with the new pool code invalid companies are 'NULL', previously they were 'garbage'
12:02<PeterT>revision, I mean
12:03<Ammler>more than one, iirc
12:03<@Rubidium>previously giving a wrong company would just cause the command to fail, now sending the wrong company could crash OpenTTD which meant we have made the command checking more strict
12:04<@Rubidium>and now they want to turn off the command checking on clients, although I fear they haven't understand how OpenTTD's protocol works and that that change opens up all clients for DoS attacks
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12:04<Ammler>they once asked me, if it is possible to change basecost to negative like you have for selling tracks.
12:04<jonty-comp>oh well, they sound like the kind of people you wouldn't miss anyway
12:05<SpComb^>well, there is a point in letting servers tweak gameplay stuff
12:05<SpComb^>but it's called "NewGRFs" or such :)
12:05<Ammler>so players do clean up what they build
12:05<jonty-comp>people always want more than they're given :p
12:05<PeterT>but commands like !name
12:05<PeterT>on Luukland's servers
12:06<PeterT>would those still be possible
12:06<Ammler>why not?
12:06<SpComb^>perhaps my phrasing of "change stuff on the server" was a little too broad
12:07<Ammler>PeterT: autopilot does such things
12:07<PeterT>Ammler: Not everyone has Linux, Ammler
12:08<Ammler>well, I mean, if you can do that with a tcl wrapper, it should also be possible with other apps.
12:08<SpComb^>I'm sure you can stuff patch around in the things like chat handling
12:08<Ammler>SpComb^: afaik the goal servers do that already.
12:09<jonty-comp>I don't quite see why you would patch text-commands into the server binary in the first place
12:09<jonty-comp>unless you extended the scripting part to accomodate such things
12:09<SpComb^>jonty-comp: I think it's perfectly valid... indeed, it would be nice if there was more in-game scripting available for it
12:09<SpComb^>things like autopilot are a little clumsy
12:10<PeterT>SpComb^: Something like IRC Scripting
12:10<SpComb^>like, I doubt the output format of the console commands is considered to be a stable interface, yet autopilot-like scripts would be sure to fall apart into pieces if the output was changed
12:10<Ammler>that is the main usage of Autopilot
12:10<PeterT>if channel::say !name $NAME, exec client_name $ID $NAME
12:11<SpComb^>PeterT: IRC is very clumsy as well
12:11<PeterT>What do you mean by that?
12:11<SpComb^>the protocol... but it's all that relevant
12:15<Chris_Booth>Ammler: why you refing to AP when AV is going to be used very soon?
12:15<Ammler>oh, Avignon is the follower
12:15<Ammler>and it could easy take another year for the first release of it ;-)
12:16<PeterT>v0.2 has Windows Support!
12:16<PeterT>I am quite excited for that
12:16<Ammler>well, tcl has windows support
12:17<Ammler>but we use some "exec" commands in ap+, that is why it isn't windows compatible
12:17<PeterT>what do exec commands do?
12:17<Ammler>run linux commands
12:20<Ammler>I guess, it wouldn't be that hard to make it again windows compatible, first Autopilot was too
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12:21<jonty-comp>I don't see any particular reason to make it windows compatible
12:21<PeterT>Ammler: What does AP have to execute that is only executable on Linux?
12:22<Ammler>but it is easyier to setup a linux
12:22<jonty-comp>it'd be far easier to bodge it into working into cygwin or something
12:22<jonty-comp>but then, I should think 95% of openttd dedicated servers run on linux anyway
12:22<Ammler>PeterT: I have no idea
12:22<jonty-comp>not like these silly commercial games that make you buy windows servers D:
12:23<Ammler>that would need someone setup it on windows and complain/feedback
12:23<Ammler>the "exec" commands are special openttdcoop comamnds for save transfer and such.
12:23<Ammler>base AP+ shouldn't have it.
12:25<Ammler>the only exec in AP+ should be something like "exec openttd -D..." which also works on windows ;-)
12:25*andythenorth has a new magic tile
12:25<PeterT>So, All I need is TCL installed, then I can run AutoPilot?
12:26<Ammler>you can at least try, yes.
12:26<Ammler>ActiveTCL or such is recommend
12:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19044 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: don't load the 'new game' NewGRFs when you're certain the savegame wouldn't have been saved with them, i.e. don't load the 'new game' NewGRFs for TTO savegames.
12:27<jonty-comp>I thought it needed that Expect package too
12:27<Ammler>yes, but I am sure, TCL will tell you that.
12:28<PeterT>Does the #openttdcoop wiki have instructions on setting it up, Ammler/jonty-comp?
12:28<Ammler>did you search for?
12:28<PeterT>I am looking atm
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12:41<PeterT>How do you use convert.exe
12:42<PeterT>I've tried in command, but there was some "wrong drive specified" error
12:42<Ammler>do nopaste the output
12:43<Ammler>paste the console to a pastebin service
12:43<PeterT>hm, wait
12:43<PeterT>now it works
12:43<PeterT>what is the point of this?
12:44<Ammler>not explained where you got the link to convert.exe?
12:44<PeterT>I was reading the wiki
12:45<Ammler>"app that converts openttd.exe from GUI to console (and vice versa)."
12:45<Ammler>expect needs openttd to be a console app
12:46<PeterT>ok, so I just run this convert.exe and it will work?
12:46<Ammler>puh, maybe?
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12:46<Ammler>run openttd.exe in the console
12:46<Ammler>with -h
12:47<PeterT>what for?
12:47<Ammler>the gui method opens a windows
12:47<PeterT>yes, it does
12:47<PeterT>and the console method just outputs in the command box?
12:47<Ammler>the other one should output to the console
12:47<Ammler>that is how it happens here.
12:47<+glx>just run it from the dir where openttd.exe is
12:48<+glx>in cmd of course
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12:48<+glx>cd /path/to/openttd.exe
12:48<+glx>that's all
12:49*andythenorth might have solved industry clearance issue with a patch that doesn't build tile if ID is 0xAF
12:49<Ammler>isn't it "\"?
12:49<PeterT>glx: thanks, it works
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12:49<PeterT>also, glx, it works just by double-click
12:49<Ammler>PeterT: really, also AP+?
12:49<+glx>if in the same dir as openttd.exe yes
12:50<PeterT>No, convert.exe
12:50<PeterT>yes :-)
12:50<+glx>it toggles console/GUI
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12:50<+glx>if console then it becomes GUI and vice versa
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13:10*andythenorth bravely posts a diff to the forums :o
13:12<TrueBrain>NOOOO! Now you broke it! :(
13:18<Alberth>only the forums
13:19<andythenorth>yep, all of them at once.
13:19<andythenorth>but including the development forum
13:19*andythenorth is brain frazzled
13:19<andythenorth>I should draw boats and stop trying to patch trunk
13:19<Alberth>I suspected as much :p
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13:21<PeterT>andythenorth: Your patch is missing an 'Index: *.cpp' at the top
13:22<Ammler>is that a svn feature?
13:23<Alberth>Ammler: not here
13:23<andythenorth>fixed that
13:23<PeterT>Thanks andy
13:26<andythenorth>PeterT: I added a version of FIRS for that patch to the forum post
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13:26<PeterT>I will test it right now
13:26<PeterT>have you tested it yet, andythenorth?
13:28<Tulitoma1tti>&w last
13:31<Alberth>andythenorth: + /* 0xFF should be GFX_WATERTILE_SPECIALCHECK; 0xAF should be GFX_LANDTILE_SPECIALCHECK <-- has a space at the end
13:31<PeterT>andythenorth: I already have a firs nightly, do I need that one?
13:31<PeterT>it's not the absoulute latest though
13:32<Alberth>also, you can add a assert_compile() check to ensure that comment holds.
13:33<andythenorth>PeterT: you need that FIRS. Other versions don't try and use original tile 0xAF (would be a bad idea)!
13:33<andythenorth>Alberth: thanks
13:33<PeterT>Ok, i'll download it then
13:35<andythenorth>Alberth: can you explain the assert further?
13:37<Alberth>horrible things happen when that comment does not hold. To ensure you cannot break it, add assert_compile(GFX_WATERTILE_SPECIALCHECK == 0xFF && GFX_LANDTILE_SPECIALCHECK == 0xAF); in some .cpp file. The compiler will abort if the condition does not hold.
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13:38<Alberth>ie it is like an assert(), except while compiling instead of while executing code.
13:39<Zuu>For rectangles in OpenTTD does .right stand for the rightmost pixel that is painted or the pixel to the right of that pixel?
13:39<Zuu>Eg is right = left + width OR left + width - 1
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13:40<Alberth>right is the last pixel being painted
13:40<Alberth>ie right == left + width - 1
13:41<Alberth>for width > 0 of course
13:42<PeterT>excuse me, andythenorth? what revision is that firs-nightly?
13:43<andythenorth>PeterT: think it's 579M
13:43<PeterT>why M?
13:43<Zuu>Alberth: Okay. I'm trying to implement centering of sprites in buttons when the buttons are bigger than the sprites.
13:43<PeterT>wow, firs has doubled in size since I last updated
13:43<Zuu>Is there a way to force a widget to have aspect ratio 1:1 without knowing either the exact height or width?
13:43<andythenorth>Alberth: I've replaced that diff, incorporated changes
13:44<PeterT>damn, now I must re-compile :-(
13:44<PeterT>what are the proper settings to test with, andythenorth?
13:44<andythenorth>PeterT: settings of what?
13:44<PeterT>map gen?
13:44<andythenorth>except industry none ;)
13:45<andythenorth>it's only a proof of concept right now, only the textile mill has the clearance check, and then only on the SE side
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r19045 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: danish - 1 changes by beruic
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: japanese - 38 changes by PouncingAnt
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: turkish - 77 changes by niw3
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: ukrainian - 1 changes by Madvin
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 154 changes by myquartz
13:45<PeterT>wow, this looks much better, andythenorth
13:45<Alberth>Zuu: no, and it may be less than trivial to implement that.
13:46<Alberth>s/less than /non-/
13:46<andythenorth>PeterT: ^^ only the textile mill has any clearance checks
13:47<Alberth>Zuu: The widgets kind of assume that height and width are not related.
13:47<PeterT>why? what about the other industries?
13:48<PeterT>I don't see any _bad_ locations for industires
13:48<andythenorth>you got lucky
13:48<andythenorth>is your map very flat?
13:48<Alberth>try again :)
13:48<PeterT>yes, andy
13:48<andythenorth>try it on hilly or mountainous
13:49<PeterT>Ok, this is much much worse
13:50<PeterT>AIs...trying to build through industries instead of around them...
13:50<andythenorth>see why I've been moaning about it for the last week?
13:50<andythenorth>It's bad enough to make me learn how to patch trunk.
13:50<PeterT>what's this stupid debug?
13:51<andythenorth>PeterT where? In industry windows?
13:51<andythenorth>That's about 2 days work screwing with newgrf registers to get some kind of useful debug output for testing :P
13:51<andythenorth>it won't be in a release version
13:52<PeterT>also, what's the point of compiling mac osx binaries when you can just as easily run openttd with wine?
13:52<andythenorth>PeterT: don't start that debate. We did that last night ;)
13:53*PeterT goes and looks at the logs
13:53<PeterT>I wasn't here yesterday at all
13:53<andythenorth>it was in #openttdcoop.devzone planetmaker disagreed with me strongly. I advocated wine (crossover). Then
13:53<andythenorth>then I tested again, and it's not a good solution, skippy, poor scrolling, uses 40% cpu vs. 20% for native mac openttd
13:54<andythenorth>anyway, afk
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>what's the time (in amount of ticks) between two visits of a tile in the tileloop?
14:03-!-bryjen [~bryjen@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: in src/train_cmd.cpp:521:Train::GetAcceleration(): bool maglev = this->GetAccelerationType() == 2; <-- is this not updated to the new railtypes yet, is this planned? a similar check would probably be needed for rack railways to use a different friction model
14:14-!-welterde [~welterde@2001:470:1f0b:592:ff:0:1:3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:14<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that is the acceleration type, not the railtype
14:14-!-welterde [~welterde@2001:470:1f0b:592:ff:0:1:3] has joined #openttd
14:14<frosch123>there is a separate property for acceleration type, and 2 means maglev-like
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and possibly we need another one for rack-driven?
14:15<Terkhen>rail friction should go into GetRollingFriction, which currently returns a const value
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: the problematic case is max_te, not the friction itself
14:16<frosch123>and the tileloop is run for 1/256 of the tiles every tick
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: does that mean each tile is visited every 256 ticks?
14:17<frosch123>i guess so :)
14:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19046 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Move retrieval of tile colour data in smallmap.
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>is there an overflow-safe version of ++?
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14:19<frosch123>OverflowSafeInt ?
14:20<frosch123>(in ottd)
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14:20<andythenorth>Alberth: (apologies if you're the wrong person to ask)...I think my patch is a nasty hack on an old tile...I would much rather use a special flag in action 0 to indicate a tile shouldn't actually be built. Opinions?
14:21<Alberth>none at all, I cannot even decode your question :p
14:21<andythenorth>hey ho
14:21<andythenorth>let me try again
14:22<andythenorth>or not
14:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19047 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use GetEffectiveTileType() in all GetSmallMapPixels routines.
14:23<Alberth>better find another dev :)
14:23<andythenorth>and my next question goes to....frosch123 :)
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>he wants (for industrytiles) a flag that says "when this is part of an industry layout, do not place an industry tile"
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>to have customisable versions of tile 0xFF
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>like callbacks that are run on industry construction
14:24<andythenorth>I think it's cleaner than fooling around with special magic on an unused tile such as 0xAF which I currently have a working patch for
14:24<frosch123>what is the use of that? there is no location check for industrytiles
14:24<andythenorth>cb 2f
14:24<frosch123>so, how do you customize it?
14:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19048 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Pass the already queried effective tile type to the GetSmallMapPixels routines.
14:25<frosch123>ok :)
14:26*andythenorth is 99% certain this is actually a good proposal, not a crazy one
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: src/core/overflowsafe_type.hpp:typedef OverflowSafeInt<int64, INT64_MAX, INT64_MIN> OverflowSafeInt64; <-- so if i wanted an OverflowSafeByte i'd declare that as OverflowSafeInt<byte,0,255>?
14:27<frosch123>better switch 0 and 255 :)
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>weird ;)
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>there doesn't happen to be a BYTE_MAX?
14:30<andythenorth>frosch123: proposal 2
14:30<frosch123>maybe INT8_MAX :)
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>UINT8_MAX seems to exist
14:32<frosch123>andythenorth: proposal 2 sounds fine
14:32<andythenorth>I managed to hack at proposal 1, I'm not sure I'll be able to safely hack at newgrf properties...
14:33<andythenorth>do I have to consider TTDP as well?
14:35<frosch123>how do you mean? obviously it will not work in ttdp unless someone codes it
14:37<andythenorth>is there any serious attempt to maintain compatibility? Or can we just add properties as we see fit?
14:37<andythenorth>(FIRS is not TTDP compatible)
14:37<frosch123>adding a bit to prop 12 is no problem
14:38<andythenorth>good :)
14:39<frosch123>and maintaining compatibility is kind of hard if noone maintains ttdp
14:39<frosch123>but you might please wallyweb, by posting the suggestion into "newgrf technical" instead of "ottd whatever"
14:40<frosch123>resp. ask some moderator to move your topic
14:41<andythenorth>ok thanks.
14:41<andythenorth>time for dinner :) italian
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>i should get something to eat too. but each time i open the door, the cats jump at me...
14:43<frosch123>shoot them
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14:45<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: go through the window
14:46<Alberth>throw them some other food
14:49<Zuu>Hmm, making code that centers the images in image-buttons without breaking the current image buttons are quite hard. The landscape buttons has a different size of the depressed images. :-)
14:50<@Rubidium>you'll notice that that happens in (many) other places too, e.g. the toolbars
14:51<Zuu>So, the only way to introduce that without breaking old buttons would be to create a new button type.
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>or a flag in the widget? draw_image_centered?
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14:54<Eddi|zuHause>could also be a compile time flag (i.e. template)
14:54<Alberth>How does drawing the image centered break current buttons?
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>add offsets where they don't belong?
14:55<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: doesn't work, you don't know how big a button is going to be
14:55<Zuu>Alberth: The images don't get drawn exactly at the same location for all current buttons.
14:56<Alberth>True, images gets drawn 1 pixel to the right and down on a lowered button
14:56<Zuu>Biggest problem I have is when the lower state image is one pixel bigger/smaller than the non-lowered state image.
14:57<Zuu>If both images are of the same size it is not too hard to make the lowered image one pixel right/down from the center.
14:57<Alberth>check the lowered size too, and never draw at or beyond that position?
14:57<frosch123>grfs define two properties for an image: the size and the relative position. so for centering you could either draw the image with the relative origin in the center (which is just not true for original graphics), or you could ignore the relative offset and always center wrt. topleft and bottomright
14:58<frosch123>also there are certain "button" which might draw stuff non-centered. e.g. the resizebox, or the window decorations
14:59<Zuu>I think I'll put it on hold for now and get the AI Debug patch ready for another release instead.
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>is TrainLocoHandler only run for the front engine?
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15:11<Zuu>Alberth: You probably have to use the maximum dimension of the upper/lower image to calculate the offset and then apply the extra pixel for the lower image placement.
15:11<Zuu>That way it might somewhat work.
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15:13<Alberth>I think so, don't know about the special images mentioned by frosch123 however, perhaps they need special handling.
15:14<thomas001>hi, i run openttd 1.0b4 unter win7 64bit. but the mouse cursor moment is kind of "jumpy", like it gets only updated every 3rd frame or so. also the cursor tends to flicker while this a known issue?
15:15<+glx>how is cpu usage?
15:15<Zuu>Do you run in fast forward?
15:15<thomas001>windows/no fast forward...checking cpu usage
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15:17<thomas001>cpu usage is about 10% on a 3-core system
15:17<Zuu>Hi and welcome Jonis
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>hm... if i'm in the smallmap, and want to change the colour of a tile/pixe, what do i need to do?
15:19<Zuu>Perhaps call a Gfx* function?
15:19<Alberth>write a different colour byte
15:20<Zuu>Hmm, ignore my answer.
15:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r19049 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Deduplicate computing number of initial industries.
15:20<Zuu>Though you knew you wanted to change a x,y pixel on the screen.
15:20-!-Zahl_ [~Zahl@2002:5ce2:d3a2:1:24d4:eaa:669:12fb] has joined #openttd
15:20<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: line 651: blitter->SetPixel(dst, idx, 0, val8[idx]);
15:21<Jonis>How do I get buses to ignore stations where they aren't supposed to stop at?
15:22<Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: and if you want more single pixel-ish changes, read DrawVehicles() below that
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>Jonis: by setting "non-stop"
15:27-!-Zahl [~Zahl@2002:4e34:4a84:1:24d4:eaa:669:12fb] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:27-!-Zahl_ is now known as Zahl
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>err... anybody used "combroadw.grf" recently? i get some kind of fatal error: read over end of pseudosprite
15:34<thomas001>can i force the installer to do a downgrade or do i have to copy from the zip archive?
15:34<TrueBrain>I AM BORED
15:35*valhalla1w throws a bone
15:36<+glx>thomas001: uninstall then install previous or use the zip
15:36<thomas001>uninstall....good point glx
15:37<TrueBrain>Why do laptop sellers still claim that you have to remove your Li-ion battery when your laptop is plugged in?! What kind of bullshit is that?
15:37<TrueBrain>why do they still claim you have to deplete your battery before recharging?
15:37<TrueBrain>agression ...
15:38<+glx>come from NiCd
15:38<TrueBrain>yes ..... LONG LONG LONG LONG ago
15:38<TrueBrain>how long as we running li-ion batteries now?
15:38<TrueBrain>they don't have 'memory'
15:38<TrueBrain>like Ni or Mh have ...
15:38<TrueBrain>(well, Mh is another story, but okay :p)
15:40<Ammler>how "safe" is it to buy chinese akkus from ebay?
15:41<valhalla1w>or rather: you cannot know for sure
15:41<Ammler>those are almost 10 times cheaper
15:41<+glx>as safe as some laptop ;)
15:41<valhalla1w>if it has no thermal protection, you're fucked
15:41-!-valhalla1w is now known as valhallasw
15:41-!-Rubix`` [] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds]
15:41<TrueBrain>hihi, valhallasw, then the joy starts for me :p
15:41<valhallasw>li-ion batteries have some nasty characteristics when you abuse them
15:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r19050 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Don't call callbacks for disabled industrytypes.
15:41-!-Digitalfox [] has joined #openttd
15:41<valhallasw>they tend to blow up and stuff.
15:41<Digitalfox>hi TrueBrain :)
15:42<TrueBrain>Digitalfox: howdie :)
15:42<valhallasw>TrueBrain: liquid nitrogen and cola bottels. check.
15:42<valhallasw>been there, done that. t-shirts are still in the making.
15:42<Digitalfox>do you agree?
15:42<TrueBrain>liquid nitrogen and broken release valve :)
15:42<valhallasw>and three floors of concrete
15:42<frosch123>[21:35] <Eddi|zuHause> err... anybody used "combroadw.grf" recently? i get some kind of fatal error: read over end of pseudosprite <- decode, renum, fix, encode
15:42<valhallasw>that's not really funny, actually.
15:42<TrueBrain>valhallasw: seen it, done that
15:43<valhallasw>er. where?
15:43<thomas001>hmm flcikering also happens in 0.75
15:43<TrueBrain>second floor
15:43<TrueBrain>gave a nice mushroom cloud, and shifferinig cold over the floor :p
15:44<valhallasw>oh, the neck clamp broke?
15:44<TrueBrain>Digitalfox: now that is auseful url :)
15:44<TrueBrain>valhallasw: "de overdruk ding was verrot, dus de hoofd ding klapte eruit, en gooide alles in 1x omhoog" .. it was very amusing :)
15:44<TrueBrain>even more the panic on the face of the teacher :p
15:44<valhallasw>oh, the large emergency release valve
15:45<valhallasw>of course, I forgot there is a second one :P
15:45<TrueBrain>gives a 10cm high cloud on the floor :p
15:45-!-oskari89 [] has quit [Quit: Untenmaa, Utm A½ - Aja 35 Odota seis]
15:45<TrueBrain>hehe ... not having a second would be .. bad? :p
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>talk about cold feet :p
15:45<valhallasw>the emergency release valve is not called 'emergency' as a joke
15:45<valhallasw>the problem is... people use them as a pressure regulator
15:46<TrueBrain>either way .. seen it in action .. kind of funny, but not something I want to see every day :p
15:47<TrueBrain>Digitalfox: ps: you always monitor logs and join if you have something to say?
15:49<Digitalfox>TrueBrain: sometimes
15:49<valhallasw>TrueBrain: significantly better outcome than with some douchebags that welded both valves shut.
15:49<TrueBrain>valhallasw: LOL!!
15:49<TrueBrain>I do not want to be near THAT
15:50<valhallasw>they found the tank three floors up
15:50<TrueBrain>that is just _very_ stupid
15:50<TrueBrain>I hope he got fired ..
15:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r19051 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Variable scope.
15:51<valhallasw>well, getting fired is one thing
15:51<+glx>no injuries I hope
15:51<valhallasw>not in that case
15:52<valhallasw>there was a chef a year ago who lost a hand because he had a vacuum flask filled with liquid nitrogen... and sealed it.
15:52-!-Rubix`` [] has joined #openttd
15:52<valhallasw>yes. people are stupid.
15:53<TrueBrain>well, at least you have cold stuff nearby :)
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15:56-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
15:56-!-mode/#openttd [+l 175] by TrueBrain
15:56-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
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15:59<PeterT>what is the channel limit
15:59<+glx>ask google
15:59<PeterT>ok, found it
16:00<PeterT>why would we want to limit the channel???
16:00<+glx>basically a join flood protection
16:00<TrueBrain>but a moment ago it was almost doing something else ;)
16:01<valhallasw>doesnt OFTC have a flood setting?
16:01<PeterT>has that every actually happened before?
16:01<PeterT>join flood?
16:02<valhallasw>hm, nope
16:03<+glx>yes it happened before
16:04<TrueBrain>in the past
16:04<PeterT>in the way past?
16:04<+glx>and when it happens the first step is to set +R
16:05<TrueBrain>you really are a know-it-all :p
16:05<+glx>then wait until the botnet is completely banned from the network
16:10<Zuu>Does anyone miss a clear button: ?
16:10<Zuu>Or will it just be waste of space.
16:11<TrueBrain>an AI debugger ingame? COOL! :)
16:11<TrueBrain>you mean for the textbox?
16:11<Zuu>For the text box yes.
16:11<TrueBrain>a small X at the end of the button wont hurt anyone :)
16:11<TrueBrain>OSX influenced ;)
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16:12<Ammler>just no new buttons, you break 32bpp tars ;-)
16:12<Zuu>new sprites?
16:12<Prof_Frink>Or a left-pointing chevron with an X on it
16:13<Prof_Frink>KDE influenced :)
16:13<Zuu>TrueBrain: It stops the AI just after the current call, and pauses the game. When you unpause, the AI will also continue.
16:13<TrueBrain>very nice idea :)
16:13<TrueBrain>can be very useful
16:13<TrueBrain>now also a source debugger, and you are done :p
16:13<TrueBrain>(showing WHERE in the source it is :p)
16:14<TrueBrain>owh, ingame editor .. hmm ..
16:14<Zuu>Especially, with compiled Squirrel code :-)
16:15<Zuu>Trying to find out the line numbers I guess will be quite hard.
16:15<TrueBrain>I believe it is in some field
16:15<Zuu>Though, the trace of errors show line numbers so maybe it should be there somewhere..
16:16<Zuu>So you are suggesting a button with a 'x' string on it or the close window x image.
16:17<TrueBrain>I was just thinking OSX did that in a nice way :) I am not suggesting anything, as I am way too long out of the OpenTTD (game-client) business to make any sane suggestion :)
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16:18<Zuu>TrueBrain: Okay, it is a good idea, but duno if that is wanted in OpenTTD.
16:19<Ammler>well, for newgrfs, it could be useful...
16:19<Zuu>To have an X-button?
16:19<Ammler>ingame debugger :-P
16:19<TrueBrain>so create it
16:20<TrueBrain>Zuu: but I was serious about the suggestion to display in those cases the line it paused on; can be valuable I guess :)
16:21<Zuu>TrueBrain: Yep, that could be valuable, but will be kept as a suggestion for a future patch.
16:22<Zuu>It has been suggested a button to produce a printout of the current state (as happens when it crashes). That button would probably print out the current line of code if it can.
16:22<TrueBrain>sounds good, yes
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16:33<Terkhen>good night
16:34-!-Terkhen [] has quit [Quit: ...]
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16:47<Wakou>Hi guys, anyone know what these errors are, and should I worry about them?
16:47-!-xi23 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:49<TrueBrain>yes, you should worry about them
16:49<TrueBrain>did you create the pngs yourself?
16:51-!-Sacro1 [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-33-135.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
16:53<Wakou>No, they are from the pack I downloaded
16:53<TrueBrain>someone didnt do their homework ;)
16:53<Wakou>(I use the extra zoom patch)
16:53<TrueBrain>without offset, those sprites are displayed at 0,0, which is rarely the correct place
16:54-!-Sacro1 [~Sacro@adsl-87-102-33-135.karoo.KCOM.COM] has quit []
16:56<kd5pbo>Is there a command to get the date or year?
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>what would you need that for?
16:57-!-thingwath [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:57<kd5pbo>Curious what the date is on my dedicated server, but I don't want to have to fire up another client just to check.
16:57<Wakou>How can I tell what the png's are? Are they inside ogfx1-base? How do I unpack that?
16:57<TrueBrain>seems clear enough
16:58<Wakou>I might to you :0
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>Wakou: you can open .tar files with the usual compression programs like winrar or 7zip
16:58<PeterT>kd5pbo: No, there is no command.
16:58<kd5pbo>PeterT: Thanks.
16:59<jonty-comp>either way, you either got the wrong download or those files aren't finished yet
16:59<Wakou>ogfx-base is not a tar?
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>kd5pbo: the date should be in the server query packet though
16:59<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: Why is the reason relevant at _all_?
16:59<kd5pbo>Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, but writing code to check that would require more work than launching the cilent and checking.
16:59<jonty-comp>why do you have to word that in _such_ a confrontational way?
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: possible use justifies an attempt at implementing?
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>kd5pbo: tried ottdlib?
17:00<kd5pbo>No, never heard of it.
17:00<TrueBrain>jonty-comp: because he is PeterT
17:00<kd5pbo>I'll look it up.
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>afair it's a python bot that queries the server
17:01<jonty-comp>no, openttdlib is the php lib
17:01*jonty-comp has it at
17:01<jonty-comp>in fact, you can use ?host=foo&port=bar on that for any server, in theory
17:01<PeterT>jonty-comp: well, I've seen people in this channel only be helped if they give a reason. what's the point in that?
17:02*kd5pbo is confused.
17:02<kd5pbo>What's the python bot called?
17:03<jonty-comp>well, the OpenTTDLib on my server is definitely a php library, not a python bot
17:03<jonty-comp>so perhaps there is some double-naming going on :p
17:03<PeterT>kd5pbo: join #codecubes
17:04<kd5pbo>Yeah, python would be more helpful than php for me.
17:04<TrueBrain>jonty-comp: no worries, it is PHP
17:04<TrueBrain>I think PeterT has trouble reading; but yeah, if you don't ask for intentions of a person, that can happen :)
17:05-!-thingwath [] has joined #openttd
17:05<Ammler>[22:56] <kd5pbo> Is there a command to get the date or year? <-- date
17:05<Ammler>or getdate?
17:05<jonty-comp>huh, I never knew about that one
17:06<TrueBrain>not like you ever need it ;)
17:06<kd5pbo>getdate :)
17:06<jonty-comp>you never know
17:06<kd5pbo>Ammler: Thanks.
17:07<Ammler>ap+ -> console confusion :-)
17:08<kd5pbo>Ammler: What's ap+ ?
17:08<Ammler>kd5pbo: ask PeterT ;-)
17:08<PeterT>don't ask PeterT
17:09-!-Polygon [] has joined #openttd
17:09<Ammler>did your Install process fail?
17:09<PeterT>i cannot find expect on Windows
17:10<PeterT>i even tried 'teacup install Expect'
17:10<PeterT>then I restarted, and it still didn't work
17:11<Ammler>kd5pbo: ap+ is a tcl-wrapper around openttd to make for example a IRC bridge of the game chat to IRC
17:12<Ammler>or IRC->console (rcon replacement)
17:12<kd5pbo>PeterT: Why do you not want to be asked?
17:12<Ammler>because it seems not working on windows... :-(
17:13<kd5pbo>That sucks.
17:13<jonty-comp>I thought ActiveTcl came with Expect
17:14<kd5pbo>Why not write a patch for the game to do that
17:14<PeterT>jonty-comp: I thought so too
17:14<PeterT>I installed ActiveTCL
17:14<jonty-comp>then again, anything with Active* in the name sucks, from past experience
17:14<Ammler>PeterT: did you try the link I gave you?
17:15<Ammler>something tclsh
17:15<PeterT>which one is that?
17:15<TrueBrain>jonty-comp: you will get plenty of future experience with it too ... Microsoft is not going anywhere :p
17:15<PeterT>Ammler: This?
17:15<PeterT>If so, yes
17:16<PeterT>that doesn't have any installer
17:16<PeterT>Like I said, i tried teapot install expect
17:17<PeterT>[17:09:57] <PeterT> i even tried 'teacup install Expect'
17:17<Ammler>yes, so expect is installed?
17:17<Zuu>An other option if you just want basic auto pilot functionality is to implement them yourself using a language that works on Windows.
17:17<jonty-comp>TrueBrain: I'll stick with proper perl binaries thanks, they seem to work for my get_iplayer script
17:17<Ammler>and you have another issue...
17:17<TrueBrain>Perl? PERL? You are crazy
17:18<TrueBrain>did my fair share with ActivePerl .. brr
17:18<PeterT>Ammler: I restarted, ran ./autopilot.tcl and no luck :-(
17:19<Zuu>I wrote a basic auto pilot in ruby once.
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17:22<Zuu>Good night
17:22-!-Zuu [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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17:23<Ammler>PeterT: try tclsh autopilot.tcl
17:23<PeterT>I shall try that
17:24<PeterT>same output, Ammler
17:24<Ammler>ok, then wait for Avignon 0.2 :-)
17:24-!-jpx_ [] has joined #openttd
17:24<Ammler>well, you will get the same issues with it, but it might have better docs.
17:25<PeterT>That's the output of teacup install Expect
17:26<Ammler>I guess, you need to load the expect before tclsh, maybe?
17:27<Ammler>package require Expect
17:27<Ammler>move to line 2 (before exec tclsh)
17:28-!-asilv [] has quit []
17:29<PeterT>Ok :-)
17:30<PeterT>Ammler: Strange, when I double-click on it, it gets past the "package require Expect" and gives another error
17:30<PeterT>so the package is installed, but MSYS cannot see it
17:30<Ammler>oh, well, run it on console
17:30<Ammler>and I wouldn't run it with msys either.
17:30<PeterT>why not?
17:31<PeterT>you mean command?
17:31<Ammler>on the usual windows console "cmd" ?
17:32<Ammler>msys is like bash for windows, isn't?
17:33<Ammler>dunno, if ActiveTCL works there.
17:33<PeterT>"couldn't exectue 'echo': no such file or directory while executing 'exec echo [ pid ] > $pidfile' (file 'C:\MSYS\1.0\home\Peter\ap+\autopilot.tcl' line 27)"
17:33<Ammler>comment that out
17:34<Ammler>exec commands are as said not that windows friendly ;-)
17:35<PeterT>with '#'?
17:35<PeterT>or //?
17:35<Ammler>like others, just check the file :-P
17:36<Ammler>I see lots of "#"
17:36<Ammler>should be obvious then.
17:41-!-Polygon [] has quit [Quit: Flieht, ihr Narren!]
17:42<PeterT>Ammler, you still there?
17:43<Ammler>and why isn't that in the console?
17:43<kd5pbo>Why was the wrapper written in TCL?
17:44-!-Nite_Owl [] has joined #openttd
17:44<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:44<PeterT>Umm, it doesn't work in console
17:44-!-rhaeder1 [] has joined #openttd
17:44<Ammler>and will, the new one Avignon is too
17:44<jonty-comp>I would put it forward that both was and is are valid statements
17:44*jonty-comp buggers off
17:46<thomas001>how many ecs vectors do you usually enable at the same time? i currently have basic+town+wood+construction, but the map seems to be somewhat overcrowded with industry
17:46<Ammler>use "very low" for generation
17:47-!-roboboy [] has joined #openttd
17:48<Ammler>openttd.exe is _not_ a console app
17:48-!-rhaeder [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:48<PeterT>It is now, I did a covert.exe on it
17:48<Ammler>how do you start autopilot?
17:49<PeterT>omg! it's working!!!
17:50<thomas001>Ammler, is that how ecs is usually played?
17:51<Ammler>thomas001: if you have too many industries, use a lower density, simpel, isn't?
17:52<PeterT>it works!
17:52<Ammler>PeterT: channel?
17:52<PeterT>hold on, that was just a test
17:52<thomas001>Ammler, sure...but i'd liked to know if this is the way people usually use ecs...or if they perhaps just use fewer vectors and higher indistry density....
17:52-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:53<Nite_Owl>too man y variables due to too many people
17:55<Ammler>PeterT: if it really works, would be nice, you would write down a little "windows howto" to the wiki
17:55-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@] has joined #openttd
17:55<Ammler>might also help for Avignon 0.2
17:55<PeterT>oh damn, the IRC module doesn't work yet :O
17:55<PeterT>I'll have to fiddle with that
17:55<PeterT>I did all this with alot of hacking and such
17:56<Ammler>did you move the package require expect?
17:56<PeterT>I love how I'm the "test guy" who spends hours doing something then I make it easy for others by updating wikis and such
17:56<PeterT>Ammler: It was installed, just not recognized by MSYS'
17:56-!-Digitalfox [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:56<PeterT>so instaed of ./autopilot.tcl
17:56<PeterT>I just double-clicked on it, and solved the errors that came up :-)
17:57<Ammler>well, you made a svn checkout
17:57<Ammler>so a patch could be interesting :-)
17:57<PeterT>Well, the errors were mostly that I didn't have autopilot.tcl and its folders in the same folder as OpenTTD
17:58<Ammler>that might be required, at least we use it that way...
17:59<Ammler>I am not really familiar with "doubleclick" on a console tool...
18:00<Ammler>I would miss the output
18:00<Ammler>often I do the opposite
18:01<Ammler>run a GUI tool with console to see some debug and such
18:01-!-Digitalfox [] has joined #openttd
18:01<PeterT>Ammler, can you do me a big favor?
18:01<Ammler>not sure :-)
18:02<PeterT>fire up nightly and join my server?
18:02<PeterT>just while I figure out hwo to do the IRC module
18:03<roboboy>if I want to run autopilot, do I need to start OpenTTD first?
18:03<roboboy>and would the window it runs in need to be visible?
18:04<Ammler>PeterT: I have the openttdcoop nightly (r18985)
18:04<PeterT>It is quite a complicated proccess
18:04<PeterT>I think i will dedicate (the rest of) today to testing AutoPilot, then tommorow to writing a guide on how to install AutoPilot on Windoze
18:05-!-Wakou [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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18:05<roboboy>then I shall try and get it working on my non-standard openttd install at home
18:06<roboboy>I have OpenTTD set to run as a service
18:06<roboboy>so I shall see if I can get AutoPilot to agree with that setup
18:06<roboboy>but bye
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18:14<Ammler>PeterT: the irc thing might be an issue with firewall
18:14<Ammler>or you need to teacup a lib...
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18:40<PeterT>Ammler: I'm having so much trouble getting expect
18:41<PeterT>to work with MSYS, anyway
18:41<Ammler>he, I thought that isn't a problem anymore?
18:43<PeterT>for double-click, no
18:43<PeterT>for ./autopilot.tcl in MSYS, yes
18:43<PeterT>I should ask at the forums
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19:24<PeterT>Wow, NekoMaster is very annoying
19:24<PeterT>he made his own topic for his Windows/Linux builds
19:24<PeterT>and then he uploads a patch created by ME and didn't give any credit
19:25<PeterT>I mean, if you're going to be lazy, at least credit the person doing all the work
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19:32<Ammler>hmm, is tt-forums Eddi Eddi|zuHause?
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19:32<Ammler>yes, he is. :-)
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19:39<sparr>there is a high frequency whine in the steam engine sound effects. can anyone verify that?
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20:14<@peter1138>sparr, in which sound set?
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20:29<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: how many years have you been here now?
20:31<Ammler>sorry Eddi|zuHause :-)
20:32<Ammler>but a nice patch :-)
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20:35<sparr>peter1138: opensfx. can GRFs have sounds?
20:36<SpComb^>why is Eddi|zuHause not Eddi?
20:36<Ammler>no, but can
20:36<sparr>ok, then opensfx
20:36<sparr>i think :(
20:36<Ammler>SpComb^: weil er zu Hause ist ;-)
20:36<sparr>i'm pretty sure i'm using opensfx
20:37<sparr>and the whining is definitely only present with the steam puff sounds
20:37<sparr>acceleration and constant motion
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb^: the name "Eddi" is frequently taken on IRC networks, hence the addition...
20:37<+glx>sparr: opensfx is a replacement
20:38<+glx>maybe you are using UKRS too
20:38<Eddi|zuHause>of course GRFs can have sounds, too
20:38<thomas001>Eddi|zuHause, but you are the eddi which seems to be in every 2nd irc channel i visit ;)
20:39<Ammler>he, indeed, sorry...
20:39<sparr>ok, well, the sound problem i have is with the GRF set currently in use on Jonty's IS 2.1.1 server
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>i'm only in like 5 channels...
20:39<sparr>I'd be happy to try to narrow down the source of the sound if I knew how
20:40<Eddi|zuHause>UKRS is the only set i know that contains sounds, but maybe that has changed
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20:42<Ammler>sparr: start a game without, create streams
20:43<Ammler>without newgrfs
20:43<Ammler>then load ukrs and check stream
20:44<sparr>ok will do, later. will return with more info.
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20:51<Bluelight>Good night..
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 07 00:00:18 2010