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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-02-09

---Logopened Tue Feb 09 00:00:18 2010
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01:46<Terkhen>good morning
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01:51<kd5pbo>Terkhen: Good morning.
01:55<kd5pbo>Is there a good way to send an motd to a user connecting to a dedicated server?
01:55<kd5pbo>I can't work out how to only send it to one user with a script.
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02:20<@peter1138>you can't
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02:35<kd5pbo>peter1138: Oh.
02:35<kd5pbo>peter1138: What's the best way to send an motd, then?
02:35<@peter1138>either send it to all, or use something like autopilot
02:37<kd5pbo>You know, I hate it when I write software and find out someone's written a better version.
02:46<@peter1138>to paraphrase... "sounds are great, graphics are great, what about sound graphics?"
02:46<@peter1138>"sound graphics"... what?
02:46<kd5pbo>kd5pbo: Talking to me?
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03:43*andythenorth bangs head
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03:45<andythenorth>Does that loop actually fetch me the tile, or just the tile layout?
03:45*andythenorth thinks just the tile layout
04:14<@peter1138>hurr, so mart3p's not been around for 2 months
04:14<@peter1138>so who made the original narrow gauge rails?
04:18<@Rubidium>wikipedia doesn't tell who did
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04:22<@peter1138>silly wikipedia!
04:22<@peter1138>it should know everything
04:23<@peter1138>although, of course, i meant the newgrf :D
04:23<@Rubidium>"I had recently been using cornelius's Narrow Gauge rails in OpenTTD"
04:24<@peter1138>hmm, never heard of him :p
04:26<@peter1138>looks good
04:26<@peter1138>Last visited: 2009-08-17 00:03:57
04:27<@peter1138>also hurr
04:27<Noldo>some licence whining in order
04:27<@Rubidium> ?
04:30<@peter1138>Noldo, correct.
04:31<planetmaker>he :S
04:31<@Rubidium>but yeah, it seems like cornelius is the first one who made a NewGRF of it
04:31<planetmaker>Killer11 is still around, though, is he?
04:31<@peter1138>yes, cornelius then mart3p
04:33<planetmaker>nice. only forum mail, no e-mail. Makes contact a bit difficult...
04:34<@peter1138>i sent mart3p a pm last night
04:34<@peter1138>i also have a serbian narrow guage train set with rail types support
04:35<planetmaker>nice :-)
04:35<@peter1138>(no permission for that one either)
04:35<@peter1138>bloody artists ;p
04:35<planetmaker>oh, pikka has also his hands in mart3p's narrow gauge sprites
04:36<@peter1138>yeah, he used them for normal guage in NARS2
04:38<@peter1138>stupid nekomaster
04:39<Terkhen>"I demand to be spoon-fed!"
04:39<@Rubidium>well, feed him spoons then :)
04:42<planetmaker>Please no smaller ones than those which you use to fill potatoes from the bowl to the plate.
04:43<@peter1138>fill potatoes?
04:43<@peter1138>serving spoons
04:44<@peter1138>big enough?
04:44<@Rubidium>yeah, that looks reasonable for starters
04:44<planetmaker>yea, serving spoons. Maybe even those cooking spoons from the canteen, to stirr in the big pots
04:45<planetmaker>ah, indeed. Small enough, that one.
04:45<Ammler>according to it has a CC like license but how pm that found out?
04:47<@peter1138>"The narrow gauge rails were drawn by Cornelius, but are based on the original TTD rails and no ownership of or copyright on the amended sprites is claimed.The narrow gauge rails were drawn by Cornelius, but are based on the original TTD rails and no ownership of or copyright on the amended sprites is claimed."
04:47<@peter1138>fucking button
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>thank you for that image... :p
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04:54<planetmaker>I guess I interpreted that quoted text as CC-BY
04:55<Ammler>could also be "Public Domain" :-)
04:55<planetmaker>yes. But that's not a legal term except in US
04:55<planetmaker>Thus "Public Domain" is no license accepted everywhere, while CC-BY is.
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: nothing in that sentence says "CC-BY", so why would you assume it is?
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04:56<planetmaker>"no ownership of or copyright on the amended sprites is claimed"
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it says more something like "copyright stays with the original TTD copyright"
04:57<planetmaker>That's an interpretation, too :-)
04:57<planetmaker>It depends how genuine art work you attribute to the sprites
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it can't be CC-BY, because CC-* requires you to link to the license
04:58<Ammler>it depense, if he made derivates of the original tracks or redraw with the aim to look like those.
05:04<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: well, planetmaker said, they have a "CC like" license, "do whatever you want, keep credits, no sources provided"
05:05<Ammler>(how I interpret CC) ;-)
05:05<Eddi|zuHause>but he did not say "like CC", he said "as CC-BY"
05:05<Ammler>ah here
05:06<Ammler>he, yes, I meant on the wiki
05:08<andythenorth>yay, I think I can stop with the C++ :D
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05:10<ccfreak2k>"This is the C++ license. You must declare your code as public."
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06:09<roboboy>my rvs in a long que have just started all driving through the que ignoring the normal game rules just like geusts can do in RCT ques
06:13<@peter1138>they do that
06:15<roboboy>ive never seen it
06:15<roboboy>what causes it to happen?
06:15<@Rubidium>it's anti-deadlock code
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06:26<@peter1138>it's the quantum effects mentioned in the road vehicle queueing option
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06:26<@peter1138>assuming it's still mentioned
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06:32<andythenorth>does a menu option exist if no-one is looking at it?
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06:33<Eddi|zuHause>it's a quantum menu ;)
06:33<TrueBrain>Schrödinger's cat all over again
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07:17<Priski>finally they added finland to G streetview, and not just the biggest cities
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07:33<@Rubidium>hahah :) declaring your illegal income? Like... yeah, hello I'm dealing drugs and this was my income, I'd like to pay taxes for it
07:34<Forked>always one that falls for it..
07:35<DaleStan>Also, that's sometimes the only charge that they can actually get to stick to the mob bosses -- tax evasion.
07:35<Eddi|zuHause> <-- related ;)
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08:01<planetmaker>DaleStan, did you get my message concerning wiki toc entries regarding Action2Railtypes and VarAction2Railtypes?
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08:03<roboboy>good morght
08:09*roboboy wonders if DorpsGek is a custom IRC bot
08:09*TrueBrain wonders why you wonder about that
08:09<Noldo>it smells like supy
08:10<roboboy>I was thinking that as well
08:10<roboboy>and I was hoping for an answere
08:10<KenjiE20>/msg DorpsGek version <- ever think of trying it?
08:11<TrueBrain>roboboy: you first have to ask a question to get an answer :)
08:11<roboboy>well I have the answere
08:11<TrueBrain>but yes, it is custom (far from vanilla anyway)
08:11<KenjiE20>what's an answere and where can I get one?
08:12<KenjiE20>no supybot is vanilla
08:12<roboboy>well I have the answer
08:12<TrueBrain>KenjiE20: that is true :)
08:12<roboboy>of course
08:13*roboboy wonders what is non vanilla about DorpsGek
08:13<TrueBrain>@openttd port
08:13<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
08:13<TrueBrain>@openttd commit
08:13<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by terkhen :: r19064 /trunk/src (7 files in 3 dirs) (2010-02-08 23:46:35 UTC)
08:13<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Feature: Allow to select different land colours for the smallmap (reworked by Alberth).
08:13*KenjiE20 would gues... yea that plugin
08:13<TrueBrain>two plugins
08:14<TrueBrain>there are 3 more
08:14<TrueBrain>and a bit of tweaking to get it all integrated
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08:14<TrueBrain>it also has an XMLRPC server, yes, to allow custom messaging
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08:15<TrueBrain>either way ... it sucks
08:15<KenjiE20>yea, supybot is both nice and sucky all at once
08:15<TrueBrain>you cant have plugins depend on plugins
08:15<TrueBrain>so I wrote one SVN plugin .. but it only works for one SVN
08:15<TrueBrain>I have 3 I want to read
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10:21<ccfreak2k>If a function macro has a function-level temporary variable in it, is it a good indicator that said macro should really be converted into an inline function?
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10:26<@Belugas>without thinking, id' say so
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10:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19065 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#3605]: Station offset multiplier was wrong.
10:53<planetmaker>peter1138, wouldn't it make sense to replace those magic numbers by constants?
10:53<@peter1138>planetmaker, good volunteering
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11:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r19066 /trunk/src/table/settings.h: -Fix: settings that are part of the "ttdpatch flags" can cause desyncs if they're changed in network games
11:35<@Belugas>wooooo... nekomaster is polluting the new rail types topic...
11:35<@Rubidium>s/new rail types topic/forum/
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11:39<TrueBrain>why does Gentoo trigger a message and warning about you needing to execute something, or things will break .. but not do it automaticly, or at least suggest installing the application?
11:39<TrueBrain>sigh ..
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11:40<@Rubidium>because YOU have not chosen to install it :)
11:40<@Rubidium>i.e. all power to the USER
11:40<@Rubidium>(and mr bones)
11:42<planetmaker>Belugas, it's definitely not the only polluted thread. On question as obvious as the other
11:42*Belugas nods
11:42<@Belugas>small brain, kiddo
11:43<TrueBrain>owh, you didn't call me :p
11:43<planetmaker>you better have a scanning tunneling microscope at hand
11:43<@peter1138>lol @ nekomaster
11:46<TrueBrain>248 new package .. I should update more often
11:47<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: new OpenTTD?
11:47<TrueBrain>OpenTTD? What is that?
11:48<planetmaker>Open tremendous time disposal
11:48<@Rubidium>like OpenDune but different
11:48<TrueBrain>nah, was just running update son Gentoo
11:49<@Rubidium>hmm, searching for opendune with google: " web stats from"
11:50<TrueBrain>seems empty
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11:55<@Belugas>you highligh on Brain now, TrueBrain?
11:55<@Belugas>Well... of course
11:55<@Belugas>it's a no-brainer
11:55<TrueBrain>Belugas: nah, my ingame char name is SmallBrain of some weird game :p
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12:11<Guest1452>can somebody tell me how to download a A.I.
12:12<Guest1452>i have a problem to find a list of A.I.s
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12:14<@Rubidium>someone didn't want to wait
12:15<ccfreak2k>Apparently not.
12:16<@Belugas>not the first time, not the last time
12:17<@Belugas>i guess (s)/he must have found the answer
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12:24<DaleStan>planetmaker: I don't see an Action2Railtypes page yet. Do you still need that one?
12:24<planetmaker>DaleStan, indeed I didn't create that page yet. But IIRC it makes still sense
12:24<planetmaker>It's different in some aspects from both, vehicles and house/industry/objects
12:25<@Rubidium>is it action or varaction?
12:26<planetmaker>VarAction exists already
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12:26<DaleStan>It does. They're both in now.
12:27<planetmaker>Thanks, DaleStan
12:27<DaleStan>Action is rather empty, though.
12:27<planetmaker>Action2Railtypes? Yes. I have an open edit window here, though ;-)
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12:31<planetmaker>DaleStan, is there a particular reason, btw, that 'normal' users cannot add anything to those TOC?
12:31<DaleStan>That's the way TikiWiki is built, I think.
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12:32<planetmaker>I guess, in that case there's nothing to be done about it then. :-)
12:32<DaleStan>You could probably get those rights if you asked patchman or orudge, though it might be a bit late now.
12:33<planetmaker>I just wondered. And it's not like it's frequently needed.
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12:37<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: ever heard from C-Otto again?
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12:58<planetmaker>peter1138, just checking my understanding: railtypes action2: the num-loadtypes and num-loadingtypes have to be 1 in all cases? Or when do I change their number?
12:59<planetmaker>eh... num-loadtypes is the # of sprites I mean. E.g. 16 for the icons and cursors
12:59<planetmaker>or am I totally off?
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13:06<@peter1138>no, they're irrelevant, but you need at least one
13:07<@peter1138>if there is one or more num-loadingtypes, then the first loading sprite is used
13:07<@peter1138>else the first loaded sprite is used
13:07<@peter1138>it means nothing for rail types
13:07<@peter1138>(same as for cargo types)
13:09<planetmaker>ok, thanks :-) So basically 01 00 is fine for them.
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>maybe numloading could be abused for grass on rails? ;)
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13:24<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that could rather be done by some adv. action2 chain... but it'd need other variables accessible then probably
13:25<TrueBrain>Rubidium: que?
13:25<planetmaker> <-- you might want to check, peter1138
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13:27<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: the guy that wanted to use OpenTTD in the classroom
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13:28<TrueBrain>ah: no
13:28<@Rubidium>too bad :(
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13:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r19067 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Fix [FS#3604]: remove Bidi control characters from the reordered text
13:38<@Belugas>glx does fix on gfx about text
13:38<@Belugas>let's call him mister X
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13:39<ccfreak2k>I load glx dynamically.
13:45<planetmaker>ccfreak2k, thanks for that mental image. iewww
13:46<ccfreak2k>At least I didn't say I mount him.
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r19068 /trunk/src/lang/ (17 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 4 changes by glx
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by planetmaker
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hebrew - 14 changes by dnd_man
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 4 changes by IPG, Petert, alyr
13:47<@peter1138>petert translating? scary
13:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: glx * r19069 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Fix: typo in known-bugs.txt
13:48<Prof_Frink>A bug in known-bugs?
13:50<TrueBrain>bug bug
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13:52<Prof_Frink>That's like changing changelog or copying COPYING
13:52<TrueBrain>or reading the README
13:52<TrueBrain>also such an insane thing to do
13:52<Prof_Frink>That has never happened.
13:53<@Rubidium>chatting on IRC?
13:53<TrueBrain>on IRC people only talk l33t
13:53-!-Chrill [] has joined #openttd
13:53<Prof_Frink>Now you're just being silly.
13:53<TrueBrain>and we are ships, dropping of things
13:54<@Rubidium>Prof_Frink: but it was on television... then it must be true
13:54<dihedral>hehe - perhaps that is what causes the issue - rename readme.txt into secret.txt and everybody will want to know what it contains
13:55<Prof_Frink>Nah, implement old-school copy protection.
13:56<Prof_Frink>"Please enter the 7th word from the 4th line of the 8th paragraph of the README"
13:56-!-welshdragon [~markmac@] has joined #openttd
13:56<planetmaker>hehe @ dihedral :-) I like the idea
14:01<wysiwtf>i wonder how i can transfer funds
14:01<wysiwtf>to other companies
14:02<planetmaker>go to the client list. You can only transfer to other player
14:03<planetmaker>(yes, company window would seem more intuitive)
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: cheats.txt?
14:04<wysiwtf>too bad
14:04<wysiwtf>i wanted to boost the AIs
14:04<wysiwtf>because they dont get shit done anymore with their starting funds
14:04<planetmaker>do you play on a server or alone?
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>wysiwtf: in single player you can use the company cheat and the money cheat
14:05<planetmaker>if you play alone, you can use the switch company cheat and then the money cheat
14:06-!-Rubix`` [] has joined #openttd
14:06<Ammler>he, almost confirmed ;-)
14:08-!-NekoMaster [~chatzilla@] has joined #openttd
14:08<NekoMaster>Hello fellow transport fans :3
14:08-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
14:09-!-welshdragon is now known as Guest1468
14:09-!-welshdragon [~markmac@] has joined #openttd
14:09<NekoMaster>: \
14:10-!-Guest1468 [~markmac@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:10*dihedral tries to remember through which forum posts the user "NekoMaster" seems familiar
14:10<jonty-comp>perhaps posts by "NekoMaster"
14:10<NekoMaster>Um, yeah
14:10<ccfreak2k>He posted Windows/Linux builds of openttd.
14:10<Chrill>OH NO
14:11<NekoMaster>im an adaptive person
14:11<Chrill>I hate how the menu on left is only there on front page
14:13<NekoMaster>Meh, i dont even use FB much
14:13<@Belugas>I am not on facebook
14:13<NekoMaster>I have to admit its good for finding old friends if you can remeber their first and last name and its alright for some chating and games
14:13<@Belugas>and you knwo what>? i feel good about not been there !
14:13<NekoMaster>But some people are obcessed with Face Book,
14:14<aber>I don't have friends so, i'm scared to join facebook.
14:14<NekoMaster>You have pie :3
14:14*SpComb^ wonders where the AIChat interface is
14:14<@Belugas>i think that if a friend matters really that much, you do not loose sight of him
14:14<NekoMaster>Well, things might happen
14:14<NekoMaster>Like high school ends
14:14<NekoMaster>or you leave college
14:15<NekoMaster>or move to a differnt State\Province\Area or Country
14:15<NekoMaster>Or maybe, its getting to you point you might eventually not even BE on earth :p
14:16<@Rubidium>SpComb^: there's none
14:16<NekoMaster>So, who wants to chat about something, like trains or something related to openttd or transportation?
14:17-!-gr00vy_ [] has joined #openttd
14:18<@Belugas>want to chat about payment processing? i'm implementing communication with a Verifone MX870 PINPad for a big Golf chain of stores in the USA
14:18-!-gr00vy is now known as Guest1471
14:18-!-gr00vy_ is now known as gr00vy
14:18<NekoMaster>Hmm? whats the pinpad for?
14:19<NekoMaster>Cred Cards?
14:19<@Rubidium>Belugas: does it play midi?
14:19<NekoMaster>Rubidium^: Lol
14:19<@Rubidium>or do you have to sample the midi into a wav before sending it?
14:20<TrueBrain>Belugas: well, you said everything there was to say
14:20<@Belugas>i think it can even play waves
14:20<andythenorth>hi hi
14:20<NekoMaster>Wait.... pinpad, golf chain... wth?
14:20<NekoMaster>Pinpad for Credit Cards or Music?
14:21<@Belugas>it has a magnetic stripe reader, a big color scrren, even able to do signature capture
14:21<@Rubidium>Belugas: nice, it runs Linux; how about OpenTTD?
14:21<NekoMaster>If it runs linux, i think you can
14:21<@Belugas>i'm not sure...
14:21<NekoMaster>it would take some work though
14:21<planetmaker>ho ho andythenorth
14:21<NekoMaster>its probably a heavily modified Linux
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14:21<@Belugas>looks like quite proprietary system
14:22<@Rubidium>anyhow, Delphi works on that thing?
14:22<@Belugas>i'm using a library built by verifone to talk to it
14:22<NekoMaster>is there any ports Outside or inside if you take it apart)
14:22<@Belugas>it's PCI compliant, so securityu matters
14:22<@Belugas>of course
14:23<NekoMaster>like PCI slots?
14:23<NekoMaster>or something IDK?
14:23<@Rubidium>wasn't PCI compliant like: "don't story anything anywhere"?
14:23*andythenorth is going for an adventure in the company of tile cb 2B and it's sidekick tile var 60
14:24<@Belugas>Payment Card Industry
14:24<@Belugas>Rubidium, yes and no. You're allowed to store stuff, but only if you have the courage to pass those certifications like once a year or so
14:25<NekoMaster>But that would be funny if you could get something like openttd on it, but, is it a touch screen or just a card reader and buttons for input
14:25<@Belugas>with a system that would be even more robust thabn ForthNox
14:25<@Belugas>yeah NekoMaster.. my boss would laugh quite hard seen the efforts i'll deploy to get OpenTTD on it
14:25<@Belugas>big time
14:25<planetmaker>Belugas, like chess on a voting machine? ;-)
14:26<planetmaker>(which also was said to be such that it cannot be tempered with)
14:27<@Rubidium>planetmaker: voting machines need no security; after all, tampering with the data at the voting machines doesn't matter, they just make up votes when they 'read' the data from the voting machines.
14:27<NekoMaster>it would not only look funny if a cashier was standing around messing with the cred card reader, but it would also be a issue if someone knew you could run programs on it
14:27<planetmaker>lol @ Rubidium :-) But that wouldn't help :-)
14:27<planetmaker>Except, if I can at least set the probability for the single parties
14:27<NekoMaster>cause for all you know, they could have put something on the thing to read your card info and use it illegally
14:29<NekoMaster>Hmm.... imagen if there was some server though, ment for openttd on advanced pinpads lol ;3
14:29*andythenorth revert revert, lets forget the "don't build tiles" stuff locally....
14:29*planetmaker hugs andythenorth
14:29<NekoMaster>: o
14:30<andythenorth>C++ was fun for a while though
14:30<NekoMaster>what do you do now andythenorth
14:30<planetmaker>no doubt, no doubt
14:31-!-ajmiles [] has joined #openttd
14:31<SpComb^>AdmiralAI got its trains deadlocked
14:32<@peter1138>ah, another ignore to set up
14:32<SpComb^>or no, not actually deadlocked, just random-turn-at-signals-chaos
14:32<NekoMaster>I wish i could find a compitent ai that not only makes decent layouts that work, but also doesnt go bankrupt every few months
14:32-!-asilv [] has joined #openttd
14:33<@Belugas>and what if you could consider writing one?
14:33<NekoMaster>Idk how, I suck at learning complicated languges
14:33<NekoMaster>i barely got through Gr11 University Programing which we used 2005
14:34-!-ptr_ [] has quit [Quit: ptr_]
14:35<@Belugas>sure... keep on saying that and for sure, you'lll never be able to ;)
14:35<@Belugas>thing is, it's not as tough as you might think
14:35<NekoMaster>Well, I may have a learning disability
14:35<@Belugas>you just need to egt your mind to it
14:35<NekoMaster>thats way
14:35<NekoMaster>and I also have ADHD so I lose interest after some time
14:35*peter1138 bowies
14:36*Belugas bloodies some time zones
14:36*andythenorth loses interest :o
14:36<jonty-comp>some people just can't program
14:36*andythenorth resumes interest :)
14:36<jonty-comp>me being one of those
14:37<jonty-comp>it probably doesn't help that the only languages I know are absolutely terrible languages
14:37<@peter1138>i suppose, now that railtypes is 'done', i could look at picking up roadtypes
14:37<@peter1138>play in the keyboard
14:37<@Belugas>NEW MAP ARRAY
14:37<NekoMaster>yeah, I have decent Long term memory, but I have to hammer things in at least a hundred times before it goes into long term memory
14:37<@Rubidium>pick up a guitar?
14:37<@peter1138>oh yes, i could i forget
14:37<andythenorth>peter1138: omg, I nearly wet myself :o
14:37<jonty-comp>oh, I don't see the point of remembering things
14:37<jonty-comp>which makes me exceptionally good at maths :D
14:37<@peter1138>Rubidium, good idea...
14:37*andythenorth checks trousers
14:37<@peter1138>i'd need to get a guitar first though
14:37<NekoMaster>I also suck at math
14:37<andythenorth>nope all fine
14:38<NekoMaster>got a 40% in Gr11 College Math
14:38<planetmaker>:-) Live-stream it, peter1138 :-)
14:38<planetmaker>Then I could switch my music channel :-P
14:38<@peter1138>we used to
14:38<@Belugas>peter1138, are you up to staying VERY late tomorrow evenight?
14:39<jonty-comp>I daresay I could learn a next-level-up language like C# if I really wanted to, but I'm not going to be able to
14:39<@peter1138>wonder if that still works
14:39<NekoMaster>I wish today wasn;t tuesday
14:39<@peter1138>Belugas, could be arranged
14:39<jonty-comp>seeing as I see most higher-level languages as awful :p
14:40<NekoMaster>well, what can C# (sharp) so?
14:40<planetmaker>hm... I need a proxy, probably in the US. YouTube sucks with its "not available in your country".
14:40<NekoMaster>I hate copyright crap
14:40*andythenorth has a cookie for someone who can give me the right bitmask for tile var 60
14:40<NekoMaster>sometimes I can only find videos for shows on sites from USA that tell me that
14:41<@Belugas>nice, mister Nelson, very nice :D
14:41*planetmaker craves for cookies and goes looking
14:41<andythenorth>^ I need the landscape class
14:41<@peter1138>planetmaker, < does that work?
14:42<planetmaker>peter1138, should I hear anything right now?
14:42-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has joined #openttd
14:42<@peter1138>'s why i asked isn't it :p
14:42<planetmaker>Well, it opened VLC... and plays silence
14:43<planetmaker>until now :-)
14:43<andythenorth>planetmaker: cookies....
14:43-!-amiles [] has joined #openttd
14:43<planetmaker>yes, yes, andythenorth :-)
14:43<planetmaker>landscape classe is 0...A
14:44<@peter1138>ah, dinrar
14:44<planetmaker>so the mask should be like 0F000000 for the landscape class
14:45<planetmaker>probably some bit shifting in order to obtain it properly like >> 6
14:45<andythenorth>I think I've screwed up the parameter as well
14:45<andythenorth>my brain is fried
14:45<NekoMaster>what would be a good naming scheme for locomotives?
14:46<NekoMaster>(Power Type)(Usage)-(Power)?
14:46<planetmaker>ICE-3 :-)
14:46<NekoMaster>eg. D(iesel)M(ixed)-2000 HP
14:46<NekoMaster>Intercity Express v3
14:46<andythenorth>what else could you need?
14:47<NekoMaster>Special Duty 40 Dash 2
14:47*Belugas plays Hard Castle
14:47*peter1138 plays chocky
14:47<NekoMaster>Im using the 2cc strain set, and since the locos dont come from the same country i was thinking of renaming them for my company so its like i imported them :3
14:49<@Rubidium>andythenorth: probably a bit more than 6 though
14:49<@Belugas>chocky... hoooo... that was good...
14:49<@Rubidium>oh maybe for planetmaker :)
14:49<@Rubidium>I ought to learn to read and write properly
14:49-!-ajmiles [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:50<@Belugas>grrrr.. not at work
14:50<@peter1138>can't say i'm very enthused by PG's next work :s
14:50<planetmaker>hm... yeah. 4*6 = 24 shift :-)
14:50<@Belugas>have not heard of it, only mitigated critics
14:50<@peter1138>me neither
14:50*Belugas knows what he'll do tonight
14:51*Belugas knows what he'll do tomorrow morning too...
14:51<@peter1138>but... orchestral covers? c'm on :s
14:51<planetmaker>@base 10 16 24
14:51<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 18
14:52<@Belugas>give the man a chance ;)
14:53<andythenorth>@calc 15*4*64
14:53<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 3840
14:54<@Belugas>hahahaha!!!! I just realized :) You were looping too on Hard Castle!
14:54<@Belugas>i was not the only one :D
14:54<planetmaker>@base 10 16 56
14:54<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 38
14:55<andythenorth>why have I got more bytes here than I expect (varaction 2 dword)
14:55<andythenorth> 89 60 00 00 1F 02 FF 00 // check tile contents
14:55<@Belugas>who says so?
14:55<andythenorth>89 is type, 60 is var. I seem to have too much param or varadjust? But it's correct and works...
14:56-!-Alberth [] has joined #openttd
14:57<andythenorth>shift 00...mask 1F 02 FF 00, then a spare byte?
14:57<andythenorth> bit 6 set?
14:57*andythenorth has forgotten all he knew
14:58<NekoMaster>Hey, know what would be kinda nice?
14:58<planetmaker> <-- like that, andythenorth ?
14:58<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> planetmaker: voting machines need no security; after all, tampering with the data at the voting machines doesn't matter, they just make up votes when they 'read' the data from the voting machines. <-- german court ruled that a voting computer must be so simple that even a computer illiterate person must be able to follow and verify the counting of the votes
14:58<andythenorth>planetmaker: awesome
14:58<planetmaker>andythenorth, mind it's untested. Just from the specs... but... dunno :-)
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>which practicaly forbids voting computers altogether
14:59<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it practically forbids voting all together :)
14:59<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, I know. I cannot say I find that particularily worrysome, though
14:59<NekoMaster>How about a train set made up of some of the worlds unique locos\trains
14:59<NekoMaster>inncluding prototype and experimental trains that never caught on
14:59<planetmaker>NekoMaster, *someone* would need to draw stuff. And then 2cctrainset is just that, a big collection of engines
15:00<NekoMaster>they all are
15:00<NekoMaster>Japan Set
15:00<planetmaker>Draw them, put them in one of the templates and they might end up on 2cctrainset.
15:00<planetmaker>But draw all views
15:00<NekoMaster>Bah, I can't do diagonals
15:01<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: what a silly court ruling; over here it is perfectly fine and acceptable that the operation of a voting computer is a trade secret and can only be discussed under NDA.
15:01<planetmaker>andythenorth, the intention is to have ID1 as the industry tile class, default is all other classes
15:02<andythenorth>planetmaker: ??
15:02<planetmaker>hm... andythenorth I think it's \wx08 instead of \dx08
15:02<andythenorth>could be
15:02<planetmaker>it's 4 bytes, not two
15:03<NekoMaster>Furry Industry Riot Set
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>\w is two bytes and \d is four bytes, i believe
15:06<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, thx. Then \d is correct :-)
15:06<planetmaker>I always mix it up
15:06<planetmaker>\d = double <what>?
15:06<planetmaker>\w = wide? word? what?
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>w=word, d=double word
15:07<ccfreak2k>On whose architecture is a word only two bytes?
15:07<planetmaker>ccfreak2k, nearly all?
15:08<planetmaker>at least they were on 16 bit stuff
15:10<ccfreak2k>I know for sure my PPC box has 32-bit words.
15:11<Yexo>planetmaker: your latest pastebin ( misses the parameter
15:11<Yexo>all 60+ vars need a parameter
15:11<planetmaker>uh, right :-) FF is it, I guess.
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: it's just a nomenclature, it has nothing to do with how big processor words are
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: in this case, it's derived from the history of x86 assembler, which grew from 8 bits to 16 bits to 32bits
15:13<andythenorth>planetmaker: \d is correct
15:13<andythenorth> doesn't work :)
15:13<planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, it misses the parameter :-)
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>so the step from 8 to 16 bits introduced "words" and the step from 16 to 32 bits introduced "double words"
15:13<ccfreak2k>Eddi|zuHause, I just enjoy playing devil's advocate.
15:13<Yexo>planetmaker: the offset is unsigned, so FF would be x+15 and y+15 (from northermost tile of industry)
15:13<andythenorth>planetmaker: yup
15:14<andythenorth>Yexo: TTDP wiki says the offset is signed :o
15:14<Yexo>andythenorth: I'm looking at
15:14<Yexo>The parameter of this variable is an offset from the northernmost tile of the industry: the high nibble contains the Y offset, the low one the X offset; both are unsigned. <- it says unsigned there
15:15<planetmaker>hm, andythenorth didn't you want to use var62 actually?
15:16<planetmaker>Land info of nearby tiles (60)
15:16<planetmaker>The parameter of this variable is an offset from the position of the current tile. The low nibble contains the signed X offset (that is 0h=0, 1h=+1 ... 7h=+7, 8h=-8, 9h=-7 ... Fh=-1
15:16<frosch123>don't confuse industries with industry tiles :)
15:16<Yexo>ah, indeed :)
15:23<andythenorth>planetmaker: re-reading tile var 62, it does look like it might work (and could be simpler)
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15:27<NekoMaster>Hello PeterT
15:27<PeterT>Hi NekoMaster
15:30-!-NekoMaster [~chatzilla@] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20100106054534]]
15:31<frosch123>planetmaker: andythenorth: btw. did you consider that ottd cannot level land during industry construction if cb 2f is used. so your industry will appear less often, and almost never in hilly land
15:31-!-Terkhen [] has joined #openttd
15:31<PeterT>Hi Terkhen
15:31<andythenorth>frosch123: nope, didn't think of that
15:31<planetmaker>frosch123, nope :S
15:31<frosch123>just to warn you :p
15:32<planetmaker>appreciated :-)
15:32*andythenorth thinks that the 'hack' I came up with might have been the easiest route after all :(
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15:33<andythenorth>just treat original industry tile 0xAF just like tile 0xFF, extend all the custom magic, and write a custom shape check statement :|
15:33<PeterT>13:47:42 <@peter1138> petert translating? scary
15:33-!-[com]buster [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:33<PeterT> <-- You're scary.
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15:34<Yexo>so you agree with peter1138? interesting
15:35<Yexo>andythenorth: wouldn't a new advanced setting for openttd (minimum distance between industries) be easier?
15:35<Yexo>that wouldn't need any changes to the newgrf and also work for other newgrfs
15:37-!-Wizzleby [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:37<andythenorth>Yexo: but how to code such a thing?
15:38<Yexo>I'll take a look at the code and see if it can be done easily
15:38-!-Frankr [] has joined #openttd
15:38<andythenorth>All of my ideas have been fail so far, for various reasons.
15:39<frosch123>hmm. reminds me. i should fix the industry appearance probabilities.
15:39<planetmaker>what 'fix' do they need?
15:39<frosch123>they are totally broken :p
15:40<andythenorth>Yexo: the easiest might be to extend CheckIfIndustryTilesAreFree to check the 8 neighbouring tiles and see if they already contain industry
15:40<planetmaker>he :-P
15:40<frosch123>the probabilities are threated as total numbers, and big numbers are not scaled by the difficulty settings at all
15:40<Yexo>andythenorth: that's where I was already looking :)
15:42<frosch123>planetmaker: fixing it would also cause the number of industries to be indenpendent of the number of available types (except on small maps add a one per type rule)
15:42<frosch123>i.e. for firs and ecs a lot less :p
15:42<andythenorth>yay, Terkhen's map colour patch is in the nightly :)
15:42<andythenorth>and also, ummm...FIRS breaks with the nightly
15:43<andythenorth>probably my bad
15:43<andythenorth>nightly <-> trunk
15:43<planetmaker>frosch123, ah, that number != f(#types) would be nice, yes
15:47<Yexo>where the 1 in the call should be configurable
15:49<frosch123>wouldn't that cause lots of bug reports?
15:49<frosch123>industries of same type nearby can be used to fake big industries
15:50<Yexo>frosch123: what if the setting was configurable in the advanced settings? then users that don't want it can disable it
15:50<__ln__>on a scale from 1 to N, how well does this man speak German:
15:50<frosch123>hmm, you said something about a setting before ,right?
15:50<Yexo>or maybe the check should be disabled for manually build industries
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: spacing between different industries, but no spacing between same industries
15:51<andythenorth>or add an industry flag or new prop that lets the newgrf set that distance
15:51<Yexo>andythenorth: that would make the check a lot more complicated
15:52-!-Fast2 [] has joined #openttd
15:52<Yexo>as then you'd need to check an area as large as the maximum distance, and for each industry tile check the industry type it belongs to and the maximum distance from that industry type
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>a callback that is called for each nearby industry, and the industry replies if it allows being built next to it?
15:52<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: also for randomly generated industries?
15:52<frosch123>he, the suggestions get more complicated :p
15:52<Yexo>^^ was a response to your first question
15:53<frosch123>anyway, i would suggest to first fix the number of industries and then see whether the problem actually remains :p
15:53<planetmaker>hm... fantastic. I have liblzo2 installed on SuSE 11.0, but OpenTTD fails to detect it :S
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i was just wondering, because it made no sense as a reply to my last question :p
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: lzo-devel?
15:53<frosch123>(no work is the best work)
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i had no such problems
15:54<planetmaker>hm, no, not devel. That was the missing part :-P Thx
15:56<@Belugas>why making it simple whenyou can OVER COMPLICATE that stuff endlessly??? The connector has its own COM port settings, totally different from the REAL com port
15:57<@Belugas>and NO ONE Explains...
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>security by obfuscation ;)
15:57<frosch123>call it serial port, that makes it sound more modern
15:58<andythenorth>Yexo: your patch is an epic fix of the industry location problem :)
15:58<Yexo><frosch123> anyway, i would suggest to first fix the number of industries and then see whether the problem actually remains :p <- let's wait for that first :)
15:58<andythenorth>even on 'mountainous, high water, high industry' it works well
15:59<andythenorth>the problem will remain
15:59<andythenorth>I'll put money on it :)
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16:07<@Belugas>yeah.. serial port... no one understands either COM port nor Serial. Nowaday, it's all "USB port"
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>i actually once had two serial mice and could play siedler 1 as hotseat multiplayer
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>man that was a pain to set up
16:10<frosch123>i trashed about 5 multi io isa cards two year ago as i had no mainboard to put them into
16:10<frosch123>but there was no game you could play with 5 mice (4 serial, 1 ps/2)
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16:13<andythenorth>256x256 map (smallest considered sane for FIRS), industry normal, town normal, mountainous, high sea, smoothness rough:
16:13*andythenorth apologises for repeating same argument ad infinitum :D
16:14<andythenorth>those screenies are same map. Can't replicate that with Yexo's patch
16:14<@Rubidium>andythenorth: you do it for industries, I do it for a particular OS? Deal?
16:15<andythenorth>I'd say deal, but the Mac->wine solution is crap.
16:15<@Rubidium>maybe wine->andythenorth is a better solution :)
16:16<planetmaker>hm... interesting: I configured my desktop such that programmes don't open over both screens. But before I quit OpenTTD last time it was actually streched over both. But now, after start, the main menu is cut in half... placed as if it had the whole two screen while it only has one.
16:16<andythenorth>Yexo's patch also works to some extent on a 128x128 map (but some industries aren't built at all)
16:16<andythenorth>so maybe frosch123 can fix that with the probability fix :o
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: sounds like SDL missed the resizing of the window
16:17<planetmaker>might be.
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>afair there's a known bug about something similar
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>with black rectangles residing when resizing too quickly
16:18<@Rubidium>planetmaker: using gnome or kde?
16:18<planetmaker>kde 3.9
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>you mean 3.5.9?
16:18<planetmaker>sorry, yes
16:18<@Rubidium>sounds like 3305
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>@fs 3305
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>hey, that actually works ;)
16:20<planetmaker>oh, I discover it again and again :-P
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16:20<Eddi|zuHause>i just thought for myself "how ironic, you reported that yourself" :p
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>i stumbled upon that bug myself some time ago
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>in kde 4.3.1 back then, i believe
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16:24<Eddi|zuHause># Ah-hoo-oo-oo-oo-oo we-um wimoweh
16:24<__ln__>bless you
16:24<planetmaker>he, was there always a zoom on the minimap?
16:24-!-Guest1486 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:24<planetmaker>or is that new and I missed that?
16:24<ccfreak2k>Truly an epic function macro.
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: was commited like yesterday
16:25<planetmaker>very nice :-)
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>only zoom out, though, not zoom in
16:25<planetmaker>well. I wouldn't expect that there.
16:25<andythenorth>minimap zoom = win :)
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>zoom in useful when you display the link graph in cargodist
16:26-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
16:26<planetmaker>well... possibly. But the zoom-out is very good for overview which I missed :-)
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>possibly the link graph should leave out/combine short links if zoomed out
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>someone going to run that suggestion past fonsinchen? :p
16:29*andythenorth wonders if this is an interesting problem
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16:31<planetmaker>andythenorth, what's the problem?
16:31<frosch123> <- almost empty :p
16:31<planetmaker>Over-fishing :-P ?
16:31<andythenorth>aral sea?
16:31<frosch123>(needs more testing, *hint* *hint*)
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: spread 0xFF tiles more generously?
16:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: could do, it's not a bad practical fix
16:32<ccfreak2k>andythenorth, for about three seconds I read that as "anal sea".
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's what they're supposed to do :)
16:32<andythenorth>I find that one funny
16:32<@Rubidium>frosch123: while you're at it, what about first one loop to build one of each industry (like ttdp)?
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: you don't know the aral sea?
16:33<ccfreak2k> I supposed to?
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>if you ever had geography at school, yes.
16:33<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: what sea?
16:33<frosch123>Rubidium: yeah, wondered about that, but troublesome on 64x64 maps. alternatively there is also a flag for "don't close last instance of this"
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: giant lake/inland sea in kasachstan
16:34<ccfreak2k>Yeah we weren't taught about the Aral sea specifically.
16:34<@Rubidium>frosch123: and maybe loop differently over the to-be-created industries in a manner that builds them so that the last industries have a chance to be built on a map without much potential locations for industries
16:34<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, lake :-)
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: depending on who you ask ;)
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's smaller than the caspian sea
16:35<planetmaker> says sea, though
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16:35<frosch123>Rubidium: what do you mean? the patch does not loop over the types but chooses them randomly
16:35<Terkhen>it still has water? I thought it was the Aral desert already
16:36<planetmaker>good night folks
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16:36<@Rubidium>frosch123: ah, okay, that's fine too
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16:36<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: just extrapolate the 2008 and 2009 image to 2010 and then my question is: what sea/lake?
16:36*andythenorth poop, need to remove Yexo's patch before testing frosch123's :|
16:36<andythenorth>good night planetmaker
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: it wasn't that bad when i was at school :p
16:38<@Rubidium>well, now you know... lake/sea almost gone
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: when i was at school, they taught us "it lost 3/4 of its size", which basically fits the 2000 picture
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: they should ask the americans what to do with a giant almost-flat salt desert :p
16:43<@Rubidium>well, I doubt it is that flat
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16:47<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: well, the major deep stretches are those still covered with water
16:47-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
16:47<andythenorth>frosch123: industry amount patch performs ok with default industries, flat map
16:47<andythenorth>results are...stranger with mountainous
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16:49<andythenorth>fails on 64x64 as expected
16:49<andythenorth>1 mine, 1 oil well, even with 'industry high'
16:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19070 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt station_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#3607]: the station coverage text was not RTL language aware (sbr)
16:50<frosch123>yeah, i guess the one industry per type rule is also needed on 64x64 maps
16:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19071 /trunk/src/lang/ (51 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: update the other language files for r19070 (sbr)
16:50<andythenorth>seems to fail a bit on 128x128 as well.
16:50-!-TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:50<frosch123>resp. especially there
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16:50<andythenorth>Does OpenTTD not support the 'force one instance' flag?
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>why would it?
16:51<andythenorth>for industries? dunno, I never noticed it mentioned in the newgrf wiki. /me looks
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>that's only for closing industries
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>not for building them
16:52<frosch123>that flag has only an effect during gameplay, not on nap creation
16:52<frosch123>but, yes it could also be used
16:52<andythenorth>set bit 16?
16:52*andythenorth feels like some nap creation too ^^
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>anyone know when doctor who starts?
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16:53<andythenorth>frosch I've tested most map sizes with industry 'high' and 'normal', very flat
16:53<ccfreak2k>Eddi|zuHause, new eps?
16:53<andythenorth>moving onto 'flat'
16:54<ccfreak2k>Wait, is there a new one tonight?
16:54<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: the 11th doctor?
16:54-!-ajmiles [] has joined #openttd
16:54<andythenorth>64 x 64, 128 x 128 = fail with 'flat'
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>doctor who airs saturdays for decades, why would an episode air on a tuesday?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: yes, that one
16:55<andythenorth>256 x 256 ok
16:55<frosch123>andythenorth: what do you mean with "fail"? not enough industries, some places next to each other, or industry jungle?
16:55<andythenorth>too many missing industries
16:55<andythenorth>default cargo chains not complete
16:56<andythenorth>I generate each map a couple of times to be sure
16:56<frosch123>that is to be expected with the patch :p
16:56<andythenorth>I haven't tested with FIRS yet
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>you might want to make the setting depend on map size?
16:56<ccfreak2k>Eddi|zuHause, I dunno, why would you ask for "when" when Wikipedia tells you?
16:56<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: what setting?
16:57<@Rubidium>ccfreak2k: 'spring' isn't very specific
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16:57<ccfreak2k>Rubidium, blame the BBC then.
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: for the industry balancing, i'd like if "very few" industries on 2048^2 yields the industries way more spread out than on 256^2
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16:58<andythenorth>someone send that man a pony too
16:58<frosch123>so you want a minimum distance between industries? that is a totally different task
16:58<andythenorth>frosch123: this isn't what I'm testing for, but noticed it
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16:58<ccfreak2k>It's one of those green refineries.
16:58<andythenorth>hilly, 256x256, normal industries
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean scale the number of industries sublinearly with map size
16:59<frosch123>well, does it happen once? or does it make the map unplayable?
16:59<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: rumours are around 1.0.0 :)
16:59<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: then pick "very low" density. the map is almost empty
16:59<andythenorth>frosch123: not unplayable no, just irritating in that case
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>i should try the patch a couple times, then make another judgement
17:01<andythenorth>frosch123 as expected, mountainous with < 256 x 256 is fail for default chains
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17:02<andythenorth>256 x 256 mountainous produces a lot of industry clusters (not necessarily bad) and some annoying tiling of industries together
17:02-!-amiles [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:02<andythenorth>same for 512 x 512
17:02<andythenorth>but not so bad
17:04<andythenorth>1024 x 1024 same
17:04*andythenorth tests with FIRS
17:05<andythenorth>64 x 64 FIRS = epic fail :) nothing built!
17:06<andythenorth>128 x 128 mountainous FIRS = fail, again, expected
17:07<andythenorth>256 x 256 has quite a few broken chains
17:08<andythenorth>also my favourite type of location fail: one industry built around another (cute!)
17:09<frosch123>that is a very firs specific issue with all those holes in the industries :)
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17:09<andythenorth>would be fixed by land-based magic clearance tile, no?? :P
17:10-!-PeterT_ [] has joined #openttd
17:10<andythenorth>or Yexo's patch :)
17:11<andythenorth>frosch123: so default industries look ok on >= 256 x 256, except for 'mountainous'. I didn't test non-square maps.
17:11<@Belugas>night all
17:11<@Rubidium>night Belugas
17:11<PeterT_>Night Belugas
17:11<andythenorth>FIRS fails on <= 256 x 256. I am happy to adjust FIRS probabilities however.
17:12<frosch123>so, well, we basically end up enforcing one industry per type, in which case we just match ttdp's behaviour
17:12<frosch123>which is also fine for grf compatibility
17:12<andythenorth>the tiling effect is still present, even on flat maps with normal industry
17:12<andythenorth>(for FIRS primarily)
17:13<andythenorth>what else can I do to help?
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>man there must have been something in the food
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>the cats are way more hyperactive than usual
17:17<andythenorth>maybe there's an earthquake coming?
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>this is not usually an earthquake region ;)
17:18*andythenorth asks the crowd...time for bed?
17:18<frosch123>well, the industry-amount patch needs a night of sleep and then finishing. the do-not-build-industry-tile patch is generally useful even if you won't use it :p but it needs checking of some special cases like "activating cb 2f for those tiles should not affect the leveling of the industry" and maybe some more... and then there is yexo's patch of not touching industries which i have not yet an oppinion about, and finally there is eddi's
17:18<frosch123>need of enforcing single industries instead of randomly placing them which could very well lead to a 5 advanced settings or more, where - uhm - somewhere we should stop earlier in the chain :p
17:18<PeterT_>andythenorth, I vote yes
17:19<ccfreak2k>I did it!
17:19<ccfreak2k>I have successfully compiled and linked openttd.dol.
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>you fool, look at what you caused!
17:20<andythenorth>what exactly is Eddi|zuHause 's need?
17:20<ccfreak2k>peter1138, DOL is the binary format for GameCube and Wii.
17:20*Eddi|zuHause was asking that same question
17:20<andythenorth>oh...larger maps = larger industry delta distance
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17:21<frosch123>configuring minimum distance of industries in the range of 1 - 50 tiles, between industries of same type, industries for different type, industries of supplying cargo for each other, industries of ....
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>you probably misunderstood it
17:21-!-sunkan [~Tarquin@] has joined #openttd
17:21<frosch123>yeah, i turned it around a bit :p
17:21<Yexo>ccfreak2k: PeterT_ is not peter1138
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, that's one way to deal with it
17:21<PeterT_>Ah, thanks ccfreak2k
17:22<PeterT_>Have you tested it?
17:22<ccfreak2k>Not yet. It's pretty much fresh out of doltool.
17:22*andythenorth would approach it with seed points scattered over a map, then build industries near seed points. But it's probably a very 'flash game' approach :o
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>but stuff like "different industries == 50 distance, same industry == 0 distance" could lead to funny ressource clustering without the need for "survey camps"
17:23*andythenorth thinks seed points can deal with that too
17:23<ccfreak2k>Haha, the elf is 26MB.
17:23<andythenorth>but there's probably no room in the map array...
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: unstripped, debug?
17:23<ccfreak2k>-g -O0
17:24<ccfreak2k>Fortunately, the DOL is only about 5,6MB.
17:24<Yexo>andythenorth: if those seed points are only used during map generation they don't need to be stoted in the map array
17:24<andythenorth>it's a very 'flash' way of doing it. Way more efficient to distribute those once, than check delta distances in some kind of o(n) scenario
17:24<frosch123>i would like the see the concept of seed points in action on a 64x64 map :p
17:25<andythenorth>for 64 industries?
17:25<andythenorth>1 per tile
17:25<frosch123>64 * 64 != 64
17:25<Yexo>64x64 map is not 64 tiles :)
17:25<Yexo>there are 3844 buildable tiles
17:25<PeterT_>@calc 64*64
17:25<@DorpsGek>PeterT_: 4096
17:25<Ammler>looks like source.list changes aren't in the dependency check.
17:26<andythenorth>umm, 1 per 64 tiles?
17:26<frosch123>Ammler: for me they are
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: changes to sources.list should cause a reconfigure
17:26<ccfreak2k>"Exception (DSI) occurred!"
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: and a reconfigure should cause a full recompile
17:27<andythenorth>extend seed points to understand cargo types or industry types, and make them available to scenario editors...
17:27<andythenorth>it's roughly how RT3 does it.
17:27<Ammler>what is if you change source.list -> configure -> revert source.list -> make?
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: have you actually tried it, or what are you aiming at?
17:29-!-PeterT_ [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:29<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: yes
17:29<Ammler>the makeBlitterOnDedicated patch
17:30<Ammler>after appling it, it didn't reconfigure
17:30<Ammler>and no remake
17:31<Ammler>(make clean && make)
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17:31<andythenorth>seed points are roughly what I'm going to fake with Survey Camps in FIRS, but they might turn out to be massive gameplay fail....we'll see
17:33<@Rubidium>Ammler: and how did you apply the patch?
17:33<@Rubidium>might it have not changed the last modification date of source.list (or changed it further into the past)
17:33<Ammler>patch -p0 < patch ?
17:34<@Rubidium>because I've never had trouble with it
17:34<Ammler>well, it isn't a real trouble anyway
17:34-!-Guest1492 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:34<Ammler>ti was just confusing it didn't remake
17:35<andythenorth>good night
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17:36<Ammler>we did svn up -> because of "C" svn revert . -R -> patch -p0 < somepatches -> make bundle -> patch -p0 < dedicatedBlitter -> nothing happen
17:36<Ammler>so I made make clean && make
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17:41<[com]buster>Quick question
17:42<[com]buster>what's the production limit for factories/sawmills/refineries/steel mills?
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17:50<PeterT>Where is the code for the station catchment?
17:51<PeterT>Would that be the same place to look to write a patch to change the catchment size?
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17:53<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: grep for "CATCHMENT"?
17:54<ccfreak2k>PeterT, it crashes before I can get the debugger inited. :(
17:55<ccfreak2k>This is why I need a USB Gecko.
17:55<PeterT>how do you even install it on the gamecube?
17:55<Hirundo>PeterT: do you want me to make a link to 'let me google that for you' or could you google 'grep' yourself?
17:55<ccfreak2k>I use a modchip to run SDLoad, which loads it from my SD card adapter.
17:55<ccfreak2k>If it was a small binary, I could also load it over the network.
18:04<Terkhen>good night
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18:19<ccfreak2k>Compiling with -g -Os only shrunk the ELF to 21MB.
18:19<@Rubidium>remove -g
18:19<@Rubidium>possibly use upx (yikes though)
18:20<ccfreak2k>I need -g (well, I don't technically, but I do need to debug), and I don't think there's a UPX for gamecube.
18:20<ccfreak2k>However, there IS something like it called dollz.
18:21<ccfreak2k>I can probably forgo AI players.
18:21<@Rubidium>wasn't there some way you can run a stripped binary and use remote gdb or so?
18:22<ccfreak2k>I can strip it if I need to, but I'm trying to avoid that since I'm using remote gdb.
18:22<ccfreak2k>I link in libdb and can debug through the network adapter, although there's a few gotchas.
18:23<ccfreak2k>Can I strip the ELF manually, then convert/run the stripped binary and use the non-stripped in the local gdb?
18:24<ccfreak2k>Ah, that will help greatly.
18:25*aber expressing good wishes on parting at night or before going to bed
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18:26<ccfreak2k>Alright, the non-stripped binary managed to run.
18:26<ccfreak2k>I'll keep that in mind though Rubidium, as RAM is a premium.
18:27<Ammler>Rubidium: you removed the unique_id, is the new network_id available?
18:27<@Rubidium>you mean it actually works? Damn... I'm reading too many mailing lists (I've not worked with embedded-ish stuff)
18:27<Ammler>(with status, it isn't)
18:27<@Rubidium>Ammler: for WHAT?
18:27<ccfreak2k>Rubidium, nah, it doesn't work quite yet. :)
18:28<Ammler>for some identifying stuff :-)
18:28<ccfreak2k>Got SIGSEGV in ttd_main().
18:28<@Rubidium>ccfreak2k: well, was more thinking about the gdb stuff working :)
18:28<ccfreak2k>Oh yeah, that part works fantastically.
18:29<ccfreak2k>As long as the debug library and network library initialize (almost always, if done ASAP), it works great in gdb.
18:29<@Rubidium>Ammler: no, you can't use it to identify (the) stuff (that's under my bed)
18:29<ccfreak2k>Oh, I see what happened.
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18:30<ccfreak2k>argv and argc are NULL.
18:30<SmatZ>you failed to pass correct
18:31<SmatZ>*usual parameters to exec*()
18:31<ccfreak2k>Well, I don't know how to pass parameters on startup anyway.
18:31<ccfreak2k>libogc supports argv, but it's not even set correctly, at least not for SDL apps.
18:31<SmatZ>execl(execname, execname, some_parameter, NULL);
18:32<@Rubidium>just fake argv[0]/argc :)
18:33<ccfreak2k>Yeah, I'm thinking about just putting in static args, at least for debugging.
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18:34<SmatZ>ccfreak2k: are you running it in an emulator, or on actual hardware?
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18:34<ccfreak2k>SmatZ, it's running on the real deal.
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18:34<SmatZ>great :)
18:38<ccfreak2k>Rubidium, oh yeah, one of the gotchas with network debugging is that I can't route stdout/stderr to my debug box.
18:39<@Rubidium>try -l
18:39<@Rubidium>(of openttd)
18:39<@Rubidium>don't know how early that starts though
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18:40<ccfreak2k>I have debug up before SDL even calls main(), so I can break wherever I want.
18:40<ccfreak2k>Is there a page on the wiki for command switches?
18:40<@Rubidium>probably not, just check openttd's man page though
18:40<SmatZ>what does openttd -h miss?
18:40<@Rubidium>that's quite up-to-date (and generally more up-to-date than the wiki)
18:41<@Rubidium>SmatZ: probably nothing, but feel free to double check my work from a few months ago :)
18:43<Yexo>-a is listed in -h but it looks like it's not a valid parameter
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18:43<ccfreak2k> " -h = Display this help text\n"
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18:43<ccfreak2k>Rubidium, oh, openttd has its own debug thing?
18:44<ccfreak2k>I don't think it'll work because I took out network support, as libbba (network support) didn't have net_gethostbyname() for gamecube.
18:44<@Rubidium>Yexo: has it been removed? Then it should be removed from the help and manpage too
18:45<Yexo>Rubidium: I have no idea if -a was ever implemented in trunk (it was for sure in noai), but it just displays the help now
18:47<Yexo>r15027 (noai merge) added the help text for it but no code to handle it
18:47<@Rubidium>then it should be taken out :)
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18:47<Yexo>I'll leave that to you :)
18:48<Yexo>good night all
18:48<PeterT>night yexo
18:49<Digitalfox>*** Banned autokilled: Spambot heaven. Contact for help. (2010-01-26 19:32:04)
18:49<Digitalfox> [ERROR] Closing Link: (Banned) ***
18:49<Digitalfox>Don' come to IRC for some days and boom my first connect had to reboot the router to get a new IP... Damn portuguese users...
18:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19072 /trunk/src/network/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3599]: possible read/write after free when the client triggered the server to close the connection
18:51<SpComb^>Digitalfox: or your own systems are compromised... you can never know until you see messages like that :)
18:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19073 /trunk/ (docs/openttd.6 src/openttd.cpp): -Fix (r15027): -a is not a command line parameter
18:53<SmatZ>oh :)
18:53<Digitalfox>SpComb^: Not unless the Host OS is compremised ( fresh install and 10 hours later is hacked? lol, running a VM of 7..
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18:54<@Rubidium>fresh installs are especially vulnerable
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18:55<@Rubidium>and if it was caused by 'bad' passwords, setting the same ones again is a sure way to get it compromised again
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>fresh windows installs take an average of 30 seconds to be compromised
18:56<Digitalfox>Rubidium: well the host is only running the OS fully updated and running AV and firewall, no 3rd party software or browser installed.. So don't think it's compromised :)
18:56<SmatZ> "10 hours" doesn't look like too much
18:59<@Rubidium>SmatZ: I'm fairly certain that doesn't happen with my laptop and the manufacturer provided installation disk of Windos Vista
19:00<@Rubidium>(compromising via the network is hard if the network hardware isn't supported out-of-the-box)
19:01<SpComb^>hmm, minimap zoom in trunk
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19:01<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: it should probably mean "4 minutes after going online"
19:06<ccfreak2k>I have no idea how to craft my own argv.
19:06<ccfreak2k>And I dunno how to make a bootstrapper to launch openttd either.
19:07<@Rubidium>something like: const char *argv[] = { "./openttd" };
19:08<ccfreak2k>Oh, yes.
19:08<ccfreak2k>I just made my test program wrong.
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19:10<ccfreak2k>Ok I got it now.
19:11<ccfreak2k>Each arg is null terminated right?
19:12<SmatZ>yes, it's a C string
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>C-strings tend to do that, yes
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19:14<ccfreak2k>Just making sure.
19:14<@Rubidium>odd... I would've expected WineHQ's website to have more traffic than OpenTTD's, but it doesn't
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19:14*SpComb^ wishes fonso the best of patience in maintaining cargodist and its smallmap UI
19:15<SmatZ>because of images, or downloads?
19:15<@Rubidium>well, since early January we don't distribute the binaries anymore
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>who on earth downloads wine from the website?
19:16<@Rubidium>and wine has ~50GB this month, OpenTTD ~60GB (only website for both)
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>you either install it from your package manager, or you build it from git checkout
19:17<@Rubidium>but for OpenTTD roughly the same holds
19:18<SpComb^>"With respect to zoom-in, the step from most zoomed-in smallmap to most zoomed-out viewport doesn't seem very big, thus adding zoom-in to the map would duplicate viewport functionality."
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19:25<PeterT>Borat gets funnier every time I watch it.
19:25<PeterT>The same isn't true with Bruno, though.
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19:29<SpComb^>there's something a little aggrevating about Alberth giving a point-by-point response to fonso's post from November - where fonso's asking for feedback/review on adapting his patch to be in agreement with the devs - after clobbering said patch with an incompatible implementation in trunk two and a half months later
19:31<SpComb^>but I'm not aware of the full scope of the discussion on flyspray/IRC, the forum thread just reads a little weird on its own
19:32<PeterT>SpComb^: Are you talking about this?
19:33<SpComb^> , to be exact
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19:41<@Rubidium>SpComb: my 'belief' is that when fonso has made up his mind he's very difficult to be persuaded otherwise
19:42<@Rubidium>e.g. the cargopacket/cargolsit optimisation thing
19:42<@Rubidium>X is faster, I've tested it
19:43<@Rubidium>when it was actually slower in trunk
19:44<@Rubidium>another example is that he is 'convinced' that viewport and smallmap zoom levels must use the same enum
19:45<@Rubidium>even when they are conceptually very different things
19:45<@Rubidium>well, unless you abstract even further... but then trains, road vehicles and such are also all 'the same'
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19:47<ccfreak2k>I think doltool strips debug info.
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19:51<@Rubidium>and I wonder whether Alberth might not have seen that it was such an old post he replied too, but that you would have to ask alberth
19:53<@Rubidium>and besides that, would OpenTTD 'ever' support zoom in? What if we just add two zoom out levels, fiddle a bit with the defaults? Then you'd still not have 'zoom in' in the main viewport, although 'oldies' would see it as zoom in the old 'max zoom in' level will just be 'zoomed out twice' or so
19:54<SpComb^>I don't have any technical opinions of my own on the ZoomLevel stuff, but as far as I can see he did ask about it on FS#3094; "So, to conclude: With a separate enum for smallmap zooming, would the patches in FS#54 be accepted? Creating a separate enum is one of the easier solutions and if this time it's not in vain I'll do it."
19:55<@Rubidium>now I have very little knowledge about the smallmap code myself, but would adding 'zoom in' levels not just be 'the same'? Why make stuff unneededly complex by having both a zoom in and zoom out concept in the same window?
19:55<ccfreak2k>Use a magnifying glass?
19:56<SpComb^>as far as I can tell, the zoom level is just a signed int... extend it off to the left and you've got zoom-in :)
19:56<@Rubidium>yes-ish, but a << -1 doesn't quite work IIRC
19:57<SpComb^>a little `if (zl < 0) return x >> -zl; else return x << zl;` magic does the trick...
19:58<@Rubidium>true, but that adds more complexity; you'd need to add such code to all 'conversion' stuff
20:00<SpComb^>ah well, I don't know what coordinate magic the minimap does
20:01<@Rubidium>anyhow, I've personally 'given up' on smallmap zoom a long time ago. Anyhow, having multiple different places where people want to discuss the same thing isn't very useful (especially multiple issues in the tracker)
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20:01<SpComb^>communication isn't always easy, it's just a pity if/when it ends up leading to wasted effort/work :(
20:03<@Rubidium>but then you can argue cargodist is wasted work too, because cargodest already existed
20:03<@Rubidium>multiple different implementations are sometimes good for gathering the best ideas
20:05<SpComb^>I do miss some of the GUI features from cargodest, but the MCF model is superior
20:05<SpComb^>(station cargo tree view...)
20:06<SpComb^>hmm... the cargodist thread will have it's one-year anniversary on the 24th :)
20:06<@Rubidium>well, cargodest first focussed on the lowest level stuff and he hasn't begun on the whole flow optimisation stuff, so yes... cargodist might be better there
20:07<@Rubidium>cargodest was better with the respect that it used so few resources
20:07<@Rubidium>but worse because it added a boost dependency
20:07<@Rubidium>although I don't quite fancy the thread stuff of cargodist; it makes it computationally harder to join servers
20:08<@Rubidium>but then, I haven't looked deeply into cargodist's code lately
20:09<@Rubidium>trying to get trunk into a somewhat releasable state and such :)
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20:15<cornjuliox>join #openttdcoop
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20:17<PeterT>You join #openttdcoop.
20:18<cornjuliox>heh. i missed the /
20:19<SpComb^>Rubidium: quite, 1.0 will be a milestone when it lets you install a full OpenTTD from apt :)
20:26<@Rubidium>yup, and likely earlier in a Debian stable than a Ubuntu stable
20:27<@Rubidium>(I question the stability on non-LTS Ubuntu)
20:27<@Rubidium>and Debian's freeze in March seems to be postponed
20:28<@Rubidium>so... bigger chances of OpenTTD making it into Squeeze
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20:29<Eddi|zuHause>how does debian version naming work anyway?
20:29<@Rubidium>was amazed that Ubuntu did update OpenTTD a few days ago, instead of like two months ago
20:29<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: Toy Story names
20:30<@Rubidium>and if you don't like the code names: oldstable, stable, testing and unstable
20:30<@Rubidium>currently equals: etch, lenny, squeeze and sid
20:31<Eddi|zuHause>so when marking a new stable, they shift the names?
20:32<@Rubidium>unstable will always be sid
20:32<@Rubidium>but stable becomes oldstable, testing becomes stable and a new testing is made
20:33<@Rubidium>I've got no idea how the new testing is made though, although I reckon it's just the old testing that then gets the packages pulled in from unstable again
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22:25<wysiwtf>i yawn
22:25<wysiwtf>and hope for an AI that clears its ununsed routes
22:26<wysiwtf>and unsuccessful attempts
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---Logclosed Wed Feb 10 00:00:18 2010