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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-02-10

---Logopened Wed Feb 10 00:00:18 2010
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04:18<cornjuliox>does openttd have problems running on AMD K6-2 processors?
04:21<blathijs>I've never heard of any, but I guess there aren't much of those in use :-)
04:21<blathijs>cornjuliox: Are you having problems?
04:23<cornjuliox>well, i dont know if its the processor, but 0.7.5 and 1.0.0-beta3 have been locking up on me, i'd be playing and the entire PC would just hang, it wouldn't respond to mouse input, keyboard input, etc i have to restart when that happens i'm still trying to figure out whats wrong
04:23<blathijs>Yipes...
04:24<blathijs>What OS?
04:24<cornjuliox>memtest86 dosen't raise any errors after running for like 8 hours
04:24<cornjuliox>windows xp
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04:24<cornjuliox>dunno what service pack is installed
04:24<cornjuliox>ah, service pack 2
04:24<blathijs>Tried cpuburn or something similar? Perhaps it's an overheating problem?
04:25<cornjuliox>i don't think its an overheating problem
04:25<cornjuliox>i play games far more demanding than openttd and it never hangs like that
04:26<blathijs>Ah, that probably rules that out, then
04:26<cornjuliox>bummer.
04:26<blathijs>If it locks up, does it still respond to pings on the network?
04:26<cornjuliox>i only have one computer
04:26<blathijs>:-)
04:26<cornjuliox>:-/
04:27<blathijs>Is there a pattern to the lockups? e.g., it's always after around 15 minutes, when you're building rail tracks, on the year end, etc. ?
04:28<cornjuliox>not really, but on 3 occassions it locked up on me when I clicked on the "Generate" button.
04:28<cornjuliox>other times I can play for anywhere betweeen 10-15 minutes before it locks up.
04:29<planetmaker>It *does* sound like a hardware issue to me.
04:30<cornjuliox>yeah, which piece of hardware?
04:30<planetmaker>well, what blathijs proposed first: overheated CPU...
04:30<planetmaker>and it's not like OpenTTD is light on that. It may only use one core, but that determines easily heat generation, if at 100%.
04:31<planetmaker>But then I assume blathijs knows more about it than myself :-)
04:31<cornjuliox>certainly seems like it. i'm gonna get me an infrared thermometer.
04:32<planetmaker>or possibly faulty memory. That doesn't help either... or faulty power supply :-)
04:32<cornjuliox>or, do you know of any apps that can record CPU temp as a series of points on a graph over time?
04:32<cornjuliox>so i can look at it after restarting
04:32<planetmaker>sorry... I rarely use windows.
04:33<planetmaker>cpuburn is a name of a programme I heart in that respect, though
04:33<planetmaker>it's not a thermometer, but part of a test suite or so.
04:33<planetmaker>otherwise we have a 100k€ IR camera here :-D
04:34<kd5pbo>planetmaker: Sell the camera, buy a new car.
04:34<planetmaker>I DO have a new car. Why should I sell the camera?
04:34<blathijs>cornjuliox: Perhaps motherboard monitor can do that, if it still exists?
04:34<kd5pbo>planetmaker: Sell the camera, buy me a car.
04:34<@peter1138>heh, windows 98. how quaint.
04:34<planetmaker>let me consider....
04:34<planetmaker>I think: no :-)
04:35<kd5pbo>I take cash or check, as well.
04:35<planetmaker>I guess it wouldn't look good either to sell state property ;-)
04:35<blathijs>planetmaker: As for the "It may use only one core" remark, the K6-2 predates the multi-core processors by a decade or so :-)
04:36<planetmaker>blathijs, :-) Right, still valid remark wrt multi-core then, but a bit pointless, too ;-)
04:36<@peter1138>and win98 won't use more than one core
04:36<@peter1138>afaik
04:36<planetmaker>but he said XP, peter1138 ?
04:36<blathijs>peter1138: Where did this win98 notion come from? cornjuliox said he uses Windows XP
04:37<blathijs>I know it is more obvious to run win98 on a K6-2, though :-)
04:37<@peter1138>no idea :D
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04:37<@peter1138>ah, on my screen "memtest86" is above "windows xp"
04:38<@peter1138>my skim reading failed and i saw windows with 86 upside down? :s
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04:40<@peter1138>planetmaker, do you see "flashing" anywhere in the docs?
04:41<planetmaker>peter1138, I don't. But "flashing" is a graphic property set by the correct colour index
04:41<planetmaker>so it need not be in the docs itself.
04:42<@peter1138>"The doc only specifies the 'flashing' lights"
04:42<@peter1138>but it doens't
04:42<planetmaker>Well... flashing lights or barrier. Can be made such that the bar or barrier is drawin in the same sprite
04:42<@peter1138>no
04:43<@peter1138>the doc only specifies lights, not flashing lights :)
04:43<@peter1138>of course it can be barriers
04:43<@peter1138>clearly i documented W and E incorrectly
04:43<planetmaker>eh? whether flashing or not, doesn't matter, does it?
04:43<planetmaker>it's only a matter of chosing the correct colour? Or where am I wrong there?
04:43<@peter1138>planetmaker, no, but stevenh says the spec specifies flashing
04:44<planetmaker>well, put that way, it's wrong what he says. And I tried to tell him that 'flashing' is a colour issue
04:44<planetmaker>not an issue of sprites
04:44<@peter1138>you are correct in that you need varaction2 var42 to differentiate between closed and open crossings
04:45<planetmaker>ok :-) But why do you have 4 sprites then for the x direction? Left and right road side?
04:45<planetmaker>Or what is the detailed meaning?
04:47<planetmaker>he... deleted my last posting :-D
04:49<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/bounding.png
04:49<@peter1138>4 lights
04:50<planetmaker>ok, then it's indeed the left and right road side :-) Thanks for showing.
04:50<@peter1138>if you want barriers, draw barriers and maybe empty sprites
04:50<@peter1138>and of course direction does matter
04:50<planetmaker>Those bounding boxes are not fixed, but defined by the sprite size - as usual.
04:51<@peter1138>no, the bounding boxes are fixed
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04:51<@peter1138>but you can draw outside them
04:51<planetmaker>So... having a barrier included in, say, the right one, wouldn't be a problem... hm, fixed?
04:51<@peter1138>you have to consider sprite ordering
04:52<@peter1138>and remember that ultimately 2D sorting messes things up
04:52<devilsadvocate>is there a channel for the 32bpp extra zoom levels?
04:52<planetmaker>devilsadvocate, no.
04:52<@peter1138>to draw a closed barrier you want to draw it in the W and E boxes
04:52<@peter1138>the N and S boxes can be empty sprites then
04:53<@peter1138>http://wiki.openttd.org/images/c/c5/RailtypesCrossing.png
04:53<@peter1138>^ that method was tried
04:53<@peter1138>just two sprites and two bounding boxes that change depending on whether the crossing is open or closed
04:54<@peter1138>but it didn't work in some cases
04:54<planetmaker>yes, I'd assume so, especially if the barrier is not over the tracks, but upright in the open state
04:57<planetmaker>let's see, I think your bounding box example could be added to the newgrf wiki
05:00<planetmaker>mind if I use your bounding box image?
05:02<@peter1138>of course
05:02<planetmaker>of course you mind? :-D
05:02<@peter1138>of course you can
05:02<@peter1138>it's generated by ottd anyway :p
05:02<planetmaker>Yeah, Ctrl+B helps a lot :-)
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05:48<TrueBrain>BURP
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06:26<roboboy>what is the config file name for funding a town
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06:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's founding, not funding
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>found_town
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06:43<@peter1138>it's also guess, not geuse, or however...
06:44<ccfreak2k>Polterguess? :)
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06:50<planetmaker>roboboy, the answer is most easily obtained by searching your cfg for "town". One of those entries will be the obvious answer
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07:41<Nite_Owl>Hello all
08:00<planetmaker>hello day_Owl. you're early :-)
08:01<Nite_Owl>Hello planetmaker - late actually - I have to take my car in to be serviced
08:02<planetmaker>uh...
08:02<planetmaker>I hope nothing severe
08:02<Nite_Owl>I tried to get to sleep early for me - around midnight my time but woke up at 3 anyway
08:03<Nite_Owl>I am hoping for the best but it should be just a routine tune up and such
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08:04<planetmaker>Then let's hope the best :-)
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08:05<Nite_Owl>I did get a dashboard warning light on the transmission which promptly went away so I am hoping to be just low on fluid
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08:06<Nite_Owl>but it does need a complete going over, oil change, spark plugs, filters, and such as it has been awhile since I had it done
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08:07<Nite_Owl>time was I could do all of that myself but on today's cars I barely know what I am looking at when I pop the hood
08:07<Terkhen>hello
08:08<@peter1138>hmm, loadavg 15.7
08:08<@peter1138>that's less than useful
08:08<Nite_Owl>Hello Terkhen
08:10<TrueBrain>peter1138: what did you do?
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08:14<@peter1138>TrueBrain, changed my theme in gnome
08:15<TrueBrain>bad idea
08:15<TrueBrain>bad bad bad idea
08:15<@peter1138>loads of stuff was swapped out
08:15<@peter1138>it tried to swap it all back in together
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08:32<ccfreak2k>Man.
08:32<ccfreak2k>I just spent a good hour debugging a bug with that had a stupid simple fix.
08:32<ccfreak2k>:x
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08:37<@Rubidium>ccfreak2k: *only* an hour?
08:37<ccfreak2k>More or less.
08:37<ccfreak2k>Now I'm on to a more tricky bug.
08:44<ccfreak2k>malloc() is giving a seg violation after some number of times being run by sq_vm_malloc().
08:44<ccfreak2k>Or uh, SQString::Create or something.
08:44<ccfreak2k>Maybe it's running out of memory.
08:50<@Rubidium>how much memory does the device have?
08:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r19074 /trunk/src/ (console_cmds.cpp settings.cpp): -Change: when filtering list of settings and console commands, use strstr() instead of strncmp()
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08:57<@peter1138>24MB
08:57<@peter1138>might not be enough, heh
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09:08<TrueBrain>I am bored
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09:10<ccfreak2k>Squirrel is used for AI right?
09:10<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: but there's so much you can redo :)
09:11<Yexo>ccfreak2k: yes
09:12<ccfreak2k>Alrighty.
09:12<@Belugas>hello
09:14<@peter1138>hello sir
09:16<TrueBrain>Rubidium: like?
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: register for my final exams
09:17<TrueBrain>sure; I can also give you the grades now, if you like
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>studying and learning is trivial, but the whole bureaucracy i can't handle
09:17<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: bananas, WT3(.1), CF
09:18<TrueBrain>Rubidium: nah, too much work
09:24<TrueBrain>and andythenorth was going to do BaNaNaS :p
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09:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'm lost in an hour...
09:25<TrueBrain>we will count down till then
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09:28<ccfreak2k>Wait/.
09:28<ccfreak2k>This isn't an out-of-memory issue.
09:28<ccfreak2k>Otherwise malloc() would return NULL.
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09:31<@peter1138>you reckon?
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09:41<TrueBrain>malloc itself should never segfault in any way
09:41<TrueBrain>else I would start to worry about your libc :p
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09:42<ccfreak2k>TrueBrain, I would expect libc (newlib in this instance) to be well-debugged, and errors that appear to happen in these libs are usually because of bad input.
09:42<TrueBrain>ccfreak2k: no 'bad' input to malloc should ever cause a crash
09:42<TrueBrain>as it only has 1 param .....
09:42<TrueBrain>clearly, newlib is not that well debugged :p
09:42<TrueBrain>not for your intended platform anyway
09:44<SmatZ>[15:28:34] <ccfreak2k> Otherwise malloc() would return NULL. <== it's very likely your system "overallocates" memory
09:44<SmatZ>so it will crash
09:44<TrueBrain>SmatZ: so a bad libc ;)
09:44<SmatZ>it's common practice to increase malloc() speed
09:44<ccfreak2k>That's easily testable.
09:44<TrueBrain>SmatZ: true
09:45<SmatZ>well, I am not saying it won't crash for malloc(2GiB), but it's likely it won't crash for 1000000 calls malloc(4KiB)
09:45<TrueBrain>last wont is will?
09:46<TrueBrain>or both in fact?
09:47<SmatZ>http://paste.openttd.org/221370 from man malloc
09:47<SmatZ>I think first will return NULL, second will crash
09:47<SmatZ>maybe a bit more than 2GiB, and only on 32bit system
09:47<TrueBrain>my malloc doesnt mention that :p
09:48<TrueBrain>man malloc, that is :)
09:48<TrueBrain>SmatZ: yeah, k, then I understand you :)
09:48<ccfreak2k>Mine does, but I'm on linux too.
09:49<TrueBrain>stupid OSX :(
09:51<thingwath>I think that if you'll really try to use 2 GiB of memory (while not having that much), system will starve so much, that it will never get to the crash (before you kill it yourself). :)
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09:52<TrueBrain>be glad it aint windows, it will swap before that ........
09:53<ccfreak2k>IIRC Windows gives you the pointer but doesn't really allocate it yet.
09:53<TrueBrain>memory in general is not what it seems
09:53<thingwath>No system with virtual memory will actually allocate the pages just when somebody calls mmap on 2 GiB of anonymous memory.
09:54<TrueBrain>MMU for the win1
09:58-!-oskari89 [~oskari89@212-149-205-119.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
10:02<ccfreak2k>Coded up a simple malloc tester.
10:02<ccfreak2k>Alloc'd 64KB at a time.
10:02<ccfreak2k>It didn't crash before I got a null ptr from one of the calls.
10:03<TrueBrain>lol, so if first returns NULL, then it crashes? :p
10:03<ccfreak2k>Good point.
10:03<ccfreak2k>I should remove the check and find out.
10:03<TrueBrain>owh, it didnt crash at all
10:04<ccfreak2k>Actually...
10:04<ccfreak2k>It's not set to close. It just breaks into the debugger.
10:06<TrueBrain>tralala
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10:09<ccfreak2k>I allocated 21,888KB of memory.
10:09<TrueBrain>I think you need a new system :p
10:10<TrueBrain>try using valgrind, it will tell you in much more detail what goes wrong :)
10:10<ccfreak2k>They didn't make GameCubes with more than 24MB of memory. :)
10:10<ccfreak2k>Actually they do, but they're called Wiis.
10:10<TrueBrain>ccfreak2k: reduce the amount of memory for the sprite cache
10:10<TrueBrain>might give you a bit more room to work with AIs
10:11<ccfreak2k>TrueBrain, does the sprite cache init before AI does?
10:11<TrueBrain>no idea
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10:14<TrueBrain>it is btw set to just 4 MiB by default
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10:15<ccfreak2k>Ok, so it didn't crash after many calls with null ptrs returned.
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10:17<@peter1138>thing is, when you get a null, what do you do?
10:17-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1E127.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:17<ccfreak2k>In my test program, or in proper behaviour?
10:17<TrueBrain>scream like a girl?
10:17<@peter1138>in normal behaviour
10:17<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r19075 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: unhackify NetworkChangeCompanyPassword()
10:17*peter1138 nods at TrueBrain
10:17<@peter1138>TrueBrain, but you do that anyway
10:18<TrueBrain>I take you have seen the movie of me and Belugas?
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10:18<ccfreak2k>Whatever is appropriate if I couldn't get memory. Maybe I return 1 and say that there's not enough memory.
10:18<ccfreak2k>And free whatever I was going to use but now is useless.
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10:21<@Belugas>yeah... the movie that was not supposed to be made public :S
10:21<TrueBrain>owh ... really? I thought you said: PLEASE make it public
10:21<TrueBrain>hmm ..
10:21<TrueBrain>sorry :)
10:22<@Belugas>barf...
10:22<@Belugas>no trouble
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10:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19076 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Move graph functions to their own header.
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10:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r19077 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Codechange: remove company_pw from console vars
10:29<ccfreak2k>I re-wrote the test to also write into the allocated memory, and it stops at 21,888KB again.
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10:31<+glx>size of your test program is 2688KB ?
10:32<ccfreak2k>In memory, probably.
10:32<ccfreak2k>The DOL file itself is about 268KB.]
10:40<@peter1138>Is that a problem?
10:40<ccfreak2k>Not that I know of.
10:40<@peter1138>ok :D
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10:43*KenjiE20 waves at APTX
10:43<ccfreak2k>Is it possible to remove squirrel/AI from OpenTTD?
10:43<KenjiE20>:p
10:44<APTX>Is everyone from the other channel in here?!?
10:44<KenjiE20>Der's not
10:46<Yexo>ccfreak2k: not yet
10:46<Yexo>but in the near future it probably will be
10:47<ccfreak2k>Huh.
10:47<ccfreak2k>That's weird.
10:50<ccfreak2k>Now a crash is occurring elsewhere.
10:53-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1E127.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
10:55<@peter1138>you should disable compilation of drivers and blitters that you don't need
10:56<ccfreak2k>I know for sure video/music drivers I'm not using aren't included.
10:58<@peter1138>they usually aren't, indeed
10:58<ccfreak2k>I'm not using the openttd configure/makefile.
11:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19078 /trunk/src/lang/hebrew.txt: -Update: add cases to Hebrew (dnd_man)
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11:06<@peter1138>suit yourself ;p
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11:07<ccfreak2k>I'm just saying, whatever configure would pick and exclude doesn't apply here.
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11:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r19079 /trunk/src/ (console.cpp console_cmds.cpp debug.cpp debug.h): -Codechange: use _debug_console_level instead of _stdlib_con_developer
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11:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r19080 /trunk/src/ (debug.cpp debug.h): -Cleanup: remove unused _debug_ntp_level and _debug_ms_level
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11:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19081 /trunk/ (21 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: make it possible to disable compilation of the AI+Squirrel
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11:39<ccfreak2k>A yet different bug has appeared.
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>damn these bugs, they are so efficient at multiplying
11:40<ccfreak2k>Oh wait, it's not a bug.
11:40<ccfreak2k>It's user stupidity this time.
11:41<ccfreak2k>Program dies at sqtable.h:69
11:42<@Rubidium>just compile without AI support
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12:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r19082 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: make 'developer' a regular setting
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12:07<Eddi|zuHause>oh, i was annoyed by that recently, and was on the brink of asking for a way to make the setting stick ;)
12:07<@Rubidium>seriously?
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12:32<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r19083 /trunk/src/ (console.cpp console_cmds.cpp console_internal.h): -Cleanup: remove support for modifying variables from console
12:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r19084 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: minor coding-style fixups
12:38<planetmaker>clean-up-smatzy striked yet another time
12:39<ccfreak2k>Are debug messages funneled through one or two functions?
12:40<SmatZ>:)
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
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12:41<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: i'd try looking in debug.h
12:41<@Rubidium>the return of the frosch! :)
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12:41<planetmaker>quack!
12:41*planetmaker is silly-minded
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>it's quak, not quack
12:41<planetmaker>Quark?
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>a quack(-salber) is a doctor-imposer
12:42<Prof_Frink>Quake?
12:42<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, you simply do have no clue about frog-speak ;-)
12:42<planetmaker>Quack is a heartily greeting!
12:43<frosch123>exactly the thing you expect after 9 hours work
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>indeed i have no clue about frogs, we only have toads around here...
12:43<planetmaker>:-P
12:43<frosch123>evening :)
12:43<Prof_Frink>planetmaker: Silly. It're ducks what quacks.
12:48<ccfreak2k>Success!
12:48<ccfreak2k>openttd printed its help text to the console.
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12:53<@peter1138>useful
12:55<planetmaker>ccfreak2k, uhm... what's new about that?
12:55<ccfreak2k>planetmaker, up until now it just crashes.
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: he's trying to compile for gamecube/wii
12:56<planetmaker>oh.... :-) then it's indeed an improvement. Congratz.
12:58<@peter1138>hmm, TileHash() is distinctly patternish
12:58<@Rubidium>then use the method from tree_cmd.cpp
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12:59<@Rubidium>maybe generalise that so it's used for houses too
13:00<@peter1138>hmm, that stores the random data on the map
13:00<@Rubidium>see line 454 of tree_cmd.cpp; that's basically it
13:01<@Rubidium>and it seems to work quite well for trees
13:02<@peter1138>hmm
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13:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r19085 /trunk/src/ (console.cpp console_cmds.cpp console_internal.h): -Codechange: simplify hooking of console commands
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13:34<dihedral>hihi - bought a new spring for my air pressure gun
13:34<dihedral>i new i was missing out on something
13:34<planetmaker>you play paintball?
13:38<dihedral>no
13:38-!-ptr_ [~peter@wpa-n2-52.kthopen.kth.se] has joined #openttd
13:41<dihedral>\o/ yet another one
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: when should we expect the "make squirrel the console language" commit? :p
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r19086 /trunk/src/lang/ (14 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 4 changes by josesun
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 4 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 3 changes by glx
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: greek - 4 changes by fumantsu
13:46<planetmaker>the line count drops ;-)
13:49<@Rubidium>planetmaker: ``Perfection (in design) is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but rather when there is nothing more to take away.''
13:49<planetmaker>sure :-)
13:52<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: hehe :)
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13:53<@peter1138>dihedral, attack of the peters?
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14:01-!-brianH [~hal@83TAAAM35.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
14:02<brianH>Hi can someone help me spam #oftc? I need to come up with some good lines thanks
14:02-!-TheMask96 [martijn@pride.vhost.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd
14:03<PeterT>brianH: Type "/part #oftc K-Lind"
14:03-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
14:03<brianH>I'm not on it, when I get on it tjfontaine /kills me when I start to spam
14:04<brianH>he's a jedi or something
14:04-!-mode/#openttd [+o SmatZ] by DorpsGek
14:04-!-mode/#openttd [+b brianH!*@*] by SmatZ
14:04<planetmaker>maybe you should be killed here, too
14:04-!-brianH was kicked from #openttd by SmatZ [User terminated!]
14:04*planetmaker hugs SmatZ
14:04<PeterT>hehe
14:04*PeterT thanks SmatZ
14:04<@SmatZ>hmm I have broken right mouse button :(
14:05-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*@83TAAAM35.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] by SmatZ
14:05-!-mode/#openttd [-b brianH!*@*] by SmatZ
14:05<@SmatZ>when I hold it, it unpresses itself sometimes :(
14:05<@SmatZ>[20:03:21] <-> DorpsGek> kb #openttd brianH NO
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14:06<@SmatZ>also, I need to find the correct command :-p
14:06-!-Xaroth_ is now known as Xaroth
14:06<PeterT>@kban?
14:06<@SmatZ>oh, thanks :)
14:06<@SmatZ>I tried kb, kickban, ban...
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14:10<Ammler>thought, the banned tor completely from this netwokr
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14:18-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*@*.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] by SmatZ
14:18-!-sunkan [~Tarquin@c-4f6644ce-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #openttd
14:18-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!*@83TAAAM35.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net] by SmatZ
14:18<PeterT>That bans all tor clients? Clever... ;-)
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14:21<Eddi|zuHause>no, only the one ID
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>for all tor users, it'd be *.tor-irc...
14:22<PeterT>You mean like [14:17:57] * SmatZ sets ban on *!*@*.tor-irc.dnsbl.oftc.net?
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>oh, i missed that line
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>fuck tor... who needs privacy on the internet anyway... let those governments spy on all of us to protect us from the evil terrorists
14:24<frosch123>how can someone even consider complaining about something in the beta4 thread if he is playing 0.7 :o
14:24-!-Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9C84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
14:26<PeterT>Spam from brianH in #oftc
14:26-!-George [~George@212.113.107.216] has joined #openttd
14:26<PeterT>:-(
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>why would we care?
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14:35<ccfreak2k>Ok, now when I load openttd, the cube reboots.
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like windows ;)
14:35<frosch123>try with a sphere
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14:38<Wolf01>hello \o/
14:38<PeterT>hi Wolf01 :)
14:39<@Rubidium>oh, you should give that version of OpenTTD to Capt. Picard :)
14:39<Wolf01>I noticed that new railtypes was applied to trunk, good one
14:39<@Rubidium>frosch123: it's like consider complaining about your patched build on our bug tracker
14:39<ccfreak2k>A spontaneous reboot usually indicates that the program returned from main(), but I can't debug it because it apparently occurs before debug inits.
14:39<ccfreak2k>:/
14:40-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
14:40-!-Cybertinus is "Cybertinus" on #osm-nl #soleus #openttd #linux-nl #bbq %#linux.nl
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>"make run-gdb"
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>(if you were using a sane build environment)
14:41<ccfreak2k>Eddi|zuHause, I can't use gdb to run it.
14:41<ccfreak2k>It has to run by itself, initialize the network adapter and then libdb.
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14:44<Eddi|zuHause>usually you start the debugger to load the program, not the program to load the debugger... really who designed that build environment?
14:44<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: Nintendo?
14:44<ccfreak2k>The program isn't running on my computer, though. It runs on the GameCube.
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and you start the debugger on gamecube...
14:45<Bluelight>Installing new router.. Will be back later.. :) Cya!
14:45<ccfreak2k>Where would I start the debugger?
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>yay... new router... means we'll get hit with another batch of "server still doesn't work" questions...
14:46<Bluelight>He he.. lol
14:47<Bluelight>If it don't work now I'll get crazy for sure..
14:47<Bluelight>Cya!
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14:55<ccfreak2k>Rubidium, the software is homebrew and the toolchain is mingw.
14:55<ccfreak2k>Just fyi.
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>idea for loading: when not waiting for full load, and timetable has run out, how about limiting the number of loading steps to capacity/loading speed? this would prevent the "(passenger) trains wait for full load even though they shouldn't" problem
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15:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19087 /trunk/src/ (60 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: some typos in StringIDs
15:23<PeterT>When trying to change my real name, I get the following error after clicking "Update Details": You need to fill in the Real Name field, and either the Email Address or Jabber ID field.
15:23<+glx>ccfreak2k: maybe you should try in emulator until it works
15:23<PeterT>there is also no editable e-mail field, or any Jabber ID field
15:23<ccfreak2k>glx, I know of only two emulators: one of them (Dolphin) doesn't run on my box due to lack of SSE2, and the other just doesn't work with anything but the trivial example programs.
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15:31<Bluelight>Ok, what ports did the server use again? :p
15:32<@Rubidium>the ones as described in the multiplayer document?
15:32-!-Yexo [~Yexo@38-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:32<PeterT>Bluelight: @ports
15:32<Bluelight>@ports
15:32<@DorpsGek>Bluelight: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
15:32<Bluelight>lol
15:42<Bluelight>Ok,s erver running.. Crossing finger here now..
15:42<Bluelight>server* fingers*
15:43<Bluelight>Convinient with @ports lol
15:44<Bluelight>@weather Oslo,Norway
15:44<Bluelight>Doh..
15:44<planetmaker>hint: try @kban :-P
15:45<Bluelight>He he..
15:45<Bluelight>kban self?
15:45<planetmaker>possibly @kbanme
15:46<KenjiE20>I don't think dorps has the Suicide plugin loaded, sadly :P
15:46<planetmaker>:-)
15:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19088 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: some typos/spelling errors in the base 'translation'
15:47<PeterT>Oh, that brings back memories
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15:51<Bluelight_>Damn, router restart.. Hope this is just some new hickup..
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15:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19089 /trunk/src/ (rail_map.h window.cpp): -Codechange: some minor coding style
15:55<Bluelight>Is there still corrupt data from my server?
15:55<Bluelight>Can you check?
15:57<Bluelight>Is the name server: 88.106.223.196 ?
15:58<Bluelight>As usual I get a lot of queries..
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16:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19090 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: some comment coding style fixes
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16:08<Bluelight_>Did someone write anything? :p My router kkeps hanging..
16:08<Bluelight_>keeps*
16:09<Bluelight_>It just freeze..
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16:13<@peter1138>so you got another shit router?
16:14<aber>its a special icemaker Router!!!
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16:17<andythenorth>hi hi
16:17<andythenorth>anything interesting happening?
16:17<PeterT>Yes
16:17<Bluelight>Grr.. Router problems.. But it's been working for a while now.
16:17<@Rubidium>depends on what is 'interesting'
16:18<andythenorth>I see Rockets have been suggested.
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16:24<Terkhen>that suggestion is like the spaceship in civilization
16:24-!-Bluelight_ [~Ivan@216.80-203-77.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd
16:24<Bluelight_>God how slow the IRC network is on connecting..
16:25<PeterT>I've never had any problems
16:25<Bluelight_>But I actually had a player on my server for some weird reson..
16:25<Bluelight_>He lost connection when router froze again..
16:26<@Rubidium>try placing it in the oven at 40 degrees C, maybe it doesn't freeze then
16:26<@Rubidium>if that doesn't help, whack it to 250 degrees C and it won't freeze anymore at all
16:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19091 /trunk/src/ (aircraft_cmd.cpp roadveh_cmd.cpp ship_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp): -Cleanup: remove some unneeded zeroing
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16:34<@peter1138>you need to return that router
16:34<@peter1138>it's shit
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause># I don't want anything more
16:38<Eddi|zuHause># Than to see your face when you open the door
16:38<Eddi|zuHause># You'll make me beans on toast and a nice cup of tea
16:38<Eddi|zuHause># And we'll get a Chinese and watch TV
16:39<planetmaker>eh, yeah, sure
16:40<@Rubidium>peter1138: or a new ISP :)
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>or a new game to worry about :p
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16:51<aber>my internet provider is quiet nice, just stupid traffic limits :(
16:52-!-Bluelight [~Ivan@216.80-203-77.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd
16:52<Bluelight>Is UPnP bad?
16:52-!-a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:53-!-Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d82261e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: bis dann]
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>(actually, i have never seen it in action)
16:54<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: ofcourse it's not bad, it allows arbitrary applications to punch holes in your router's firewall. It's *the* perfect tool to help those poor spammers (they get paid awfully bad per spam mail)
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't think you'd get rich by becoming a spammer ;)
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17:00<Bluelight_>What is FEC Errors
17:00<Bluelight_>I get those on the router..
17:01<Bluelight_>And a few CRC Errors
17:01<@Rubidium>lmgtfy.com?q=fec+errors ?
17:01<Bluelight_>And HEC Errors
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>it means that you screwed up hopelessly
17:01<planetmaker>ask the manufacturer.
17:02<@Rubidium>let me see... corrupt ATM headers, corrupt ATM data, corrupt IP packets... corrupt *everything*?
17:03<@Belugas>night
17:03<planetmaker>bad ISP :-P
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>and you wonder why corrupt things even get through to the master server :P
17:03<@Rubidium>ciao Belugas
17:03<planetmaker>good night Belugas
17:03<jonty-comp>perhaps it's just your internet that's terrible
17:03<Bluelight_>Hmm.. Nesodden where I live is like a huge rock..
17:04<Bluelight_>So cables are hard to dig down..
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>Bluelight_: you're being observed by $TLA and their trojan is misbehaving
17:04<Bluelight_>But this router does not reconnect after it loose connection, it just sit there disconnected...
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17:05<Eddi|zuHause>Bluelight: that's probably a setting
17:05<Bluelight>Cant find it.: .p
17:05<planetmaker>a manual also works wonders
17:05<Bluelight>Now I'm really sad.. I didn't know my connection sucked..
17:06<@Rubidium>just use the Alabamian solution for any problem
17:07-!-Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-98-254-113-47.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
17:07<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:08<planetmaker>hello
17:10<Nite_Owl>Hello planetmaker
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17:11<Nite_Owl>...and the failed compiles on the nightly was due to... (just out of curiosity of course)
17:11<@Rubidium>failed compiles?
17:12<Nite_Owl>the only windows version listed for today is for 9x and ME
17:12<@Rubidium>oh, MSVC :)
17:12<@Rubidium>guess I broke that then :)
17:13<Nite_Owl>not a problem - like I typed just curious
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17:14<ccfreak2k>Does that mean today's pariah is Rubidium?
17:15<Nite_Owl>as always I am sure it will all be back to normal soon enough
17:15<@Rubidium>MSVC is just so easy to break if you don't use it :)
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>projects/generate?
17:16<@Rubidium>the 'only' reason to use MSVC for Windows is that it's crash log stuff is superior to GCC's
17:16<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: nah, that won't fix it
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>may i ask what's actually broken?
17:18<Nite_Owl>there is a compile log somewhere but I forgot the link
17:20<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: oh, just generally 'everything' :)
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>oh, alright then ;)
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>business as usual ;)
17:21<@Rubidium>or more specially, everything related to AI stuff
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17:23<@Rubidium>nasty thing is that a compile failure in MSVC still generates the .pdb so the CF thinks it went fine and doesn't throw a warning
17:23<@Rubidium>or notice about the failure of the compile
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17:24<planetmaker>can't you check for the binary, Rubidium ?
17:24<Bluelight>God what a crappy router.. Brand new crap..
17:25<@Rubidium>yeah, you can... but... that requires me knowing what to change and such
17:25<planetmaker>:-) The usual "much work for little gain", I guess ;-)
17:26<@Rubidium>more the usual: should we do it now, or when we rewrite the thing because it doesn't behave as we like it to behave
17:28<planetmaker>ah, that's the worse variant
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17:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19092 /trunk/projects/ (5 files): -Fix (r19081): MSVC couldn't quite compile OpenTTD
17:40<Nite_Owl>there you go...
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17:46<Terkhen>good night
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17:53<PeterT>is it true that a cargodist+is2 build can have adverse affects on how the pax transfering works?
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes.
17:55<welshdragon>xD
17:55<PeterT>is cargodist>cargodest?
17:56<PeterT>my friend disagrees
17:56<PeterT>he thinks the same cdist+is2 problem wouldn't exist with cargodest
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>they are fundamentally different
17:57<PeterT>is cargodist better?
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>they are fundamentally different
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18:03<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: since when does it matter for comparison whether something is fundamentally different?
18:04<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: saying "Windows Vista is better than PeterT" does make sense, right?
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>certainly.
18:05-!-ecke [~ecke@211.143.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ecke]
18:05<Eoin>And windows Vista is shit
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18:07<Eddi|zuHause>Eoin: that's a totally independent issue ;)
18:07<Eoin>lol
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18:13<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: cargodest is missing 1 year of maintenance work, and load balancing over separate routes
18:13-!-heffer [~felix@static-87-78-98-150.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: heffer]
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>cargodist isn't trunk material yet either
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>so neither one is actually "good", but the tendency which is better is currently leaning towards cargodist
18:15<ccfreak2k>What's the difference, anyway?
18:15<ccfreak2k>Besides "one letter".
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>this, however, has nothing to do with merging is2
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: cargodest uses pathfinding for point-to-point connections
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: cargodist is using an iterative algorithm to solve the network flow problem
18:16<Eoin>uhm
18:16<Nite_Owl>need to feed - later all
18:16<Eoin>do i have someone ignored
18:16-!-Nite_Owl [~Nite_Owl@c-98-254-113-47.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Read You Soon]
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>so cargodest, once it made up its mind what is the "shortest" route, will not reroute a cargo
18:16<Eoin>or is Eddi|zuHause talking to himself?
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>i am fairly certain that neither PeterT nor ccfreak2k are split personalities of myself
18:17<ccfreak2k>Eoin, he was talking to PeterT, and then me.
18:17<Eoin>uhm
18:17<Eoin>i didnt see petert talk
18:17<Eoin>but i saw you talk
18:17<ccfreak2k><PeterT> is cargodist better?
18:17<Eoin>[22:57] <PeterT> is cargodist better?
18:17<Eoin>oh
18:17<Eoin>nvm then
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>cargodest only reroutes cargo when the network changes due to player interaction (changing route of a vehicle)
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>cargodist periodically reroutes cargo when routes are congested
18:19<aber>Does somebody know how i check if i have build a universal binary. Can i force it to use ppc?
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>aber: does "file" tell you anything?
18:21<aber>nope
18:22<aber>using rosetta :)
18:24-!-Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep.]
18:24<aber>i you habe to much precessing Power this is great.
18:27<ccfreak2k>I wish that last sentence made sense. :(
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>just sprinkle a few letters over it ;)
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18:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r19093 /trunk/src/console.cpp: -Codechange: do not prefix console debug output with 'condbg', [console] is enough
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18:41<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you forgot h=1 ;)
18:41<planetmaker>yes indeed.
18:42<planetmaker>I knew something was missing, but couldn't be bothered to look it up ;-)
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>you physicists are crazy anyway :p
18:42<@Rubidium>oh the thread where 'they' make the effort and I have the power?
18:43<planetmaker>yes. Ignoring the units they do their calculation with
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>times are just inverse distances ;)
18:44<planetmaker>well, no :-)
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>no, i miscalculated
18:44<planetmaker>it's just another dimension ;-)
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>they are equal
18:44<@Rubidium>times are just inverse divisions
18:44<planetmaker>but I prefer the usual 3 and time separate.
18:45<Prof_Frink>Time is an illusion.
18:45<planetmaker>Rubidium: division is a fiction ;-) It's only a short hand for multiplication with the inverse ;-)
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause>v=s/t, so s=v*t, and [v]=1, so [s]=[t]
18:45<@SmatZ>aber: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
18:46<planetmaker>what, SmatZ ?
18:46<Wolf01>'night
18:46<@SmatZ>planetmaker: I am using his language :-p
18:46-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host17-233-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
18:46<planetmaker>:-P
18:46<planetmaker>alright, I don't seem to speak it :-P
18:47<@SmatZ>"i you habe to much precessing Power this is great." that really got me
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: no, you are trying to imitate the language, but yield unintelligible rubbish
18:47<aber>c'mon. i eat to much cookies. My keyboard is somewhat...
18:47<@SmatZ>ok :)
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>i actually did understand what he meant ;)
18:47<@Rubidium>you have words on your keywords instead of characters?
18:48<@SmatZ>hehe
18:48<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but indeed those conventions make many equations easy to write.
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>you mean E=m? ;)
18:48<planetmaker>But very difficult to get any "real" results from it
18:48<planetmaker>yes, like that
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's easy, when you're done, you just add c's and h's until the units fit :p
18:49<planetmaker>it's already very annoying to see people use cgs instead of SI
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18:49<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: yeah... especially if things have units like g^(1/2) * s^(-2/3) etc.
18:50<planetmaker>that's something I simply don't develop a sense of quantity for
18:50<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: Thanks for that info :-)
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i guess it's just a matter of getting used to...
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18:53<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: probably. But it's extra work if you need to compare to real experiments ;-)
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of experiments does one do to create celestial objects? ;)
18:56<planetmaker>small ones ;-) scaled-down
18:56-!-Hackykid [~quassel@86.85.232.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:56<planetmaker>http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-51623-2.html <-- we should get mixtures of bus + ship here, too ;-)
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>make a newgrf :p
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: how long until actual artificial planet construction? ;)
18:57<planetmaker>hehe. I WILL propose it to andythenorth ;-)
18:58<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: long time I guess. Except if you allow for computer experiments ;-)
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: like collecting all the dirt from the asteroid belt in one place, and forming a planet out of it?
18:58<planetmaker>wouldn't really make a nice or big planet. Too small ;-)
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>throw the stuff on mars?
18:59<planetmaker>Yeah, seems reasonable.
18:59<planetmaker>Or mine it out just in place
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18:59<planetmaker>But we need one in geostationary orbit around Earth. For the celestial elevator ;-)
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>how much combined mass is there in the asteroid belt, compared to earth?
19:00<planetmaker>Earth is 5e24kg. The asteroid belt... I guess of the order 1e20kg
19:00<planetmaker>maybe even less
19:01<planetmaker>wiki sais 3e21kg
19:02<@Rubidium>that sounds about right-ish
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>my table doesn't cover the asteroid belt
19:02<planetmaker>Mars is 6e23kg
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>so that's 0.003
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>mars is 0.64
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>and earth is 5.97
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>so in the asteroid belt is actually nothing useful...
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>moon is 0.073
19:04<planetmaker>;-) Some iron is there. And carbon
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>so that's even factor 20 more...
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i mean in context of artificial planet [with useful gravitation]
19:05<ccfreak2k>Aha.
19:05<ccfreak2k>I finally tracked the next bug down.
19:05<planetmaker>besides: Ceres alone is 9e20kg of the Asteroid belt's mass.
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: solving one bug creates two new ones
19:05<ccfreak2k>Oh you.
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: it's how programmers ensure their jobs ;)
19:06<ccfreak2k>OpenTTD is trying to open/list "carda:/lang/", while it should be either "carda:/openttd/lang/" or "/openttd/lang".
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19:07<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: then you did not configure personal_dir and shared_dir correctly
19:07<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: they're constantly created ;-) But I guess they're natural ones. Artificial... you can buy stocks and invest millions. ;-) The outlook to realization might be worse than a true skyride with Virgin Galactic
19:07<ccfreak2k>Obviously not, but I've been trying to figure out what would be correct.
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19:07<ccfreak2k>Basically everything should be in /openttd, except for the binary which is in /.
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: well, unless we "solve" the relativity, only planets within our solar system will be useful ;)
19:08<planetmaker>ccfreak2k: then you might want to modify the make bundle command or add a new one
19:08<ccfreak2k>I'm using my own makefile.
19:08<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that depends. Perceived travel time on board might actually be quite ok
19:09<planetmaker>But on Earth it might be eons
19:09<planetmaker>But still... you'd need speeds of >~0.9c
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>well, you can limit the effects if you only travel at something like 1/4c
19:09<planetmaker>acceleration sucks ;-)
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>but you're enroute 4 times longer then
19:10<planetmaker>yes, but then travel is already long ;-)
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>so you only have a handful of reachable stars within the lifetime of the crew
19:10<planetmaker>perceived time is not linear with speed ;-)
19:11<planetmaker>with 0.999c you can travel quite far. Further than 100LY in a human's life time.
19:11<@Rubidium>planetmaker: just use the Oort Cloud for materials :)
19:11<planetmaker>@calc (1/(1-0.99^2)
19:11<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>ö
19:11<planetmaker>@calc (1/(1-0.99^2))
19:11<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
19:11<@Rubidium>^ -> **
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: **
19:11<planetmaker>@calc (1/(1-0.99**2))
19:11<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 50.2512562814
19:11<planetmaker>50 times time-stretch
19:12<ccfreak2k>Plus 0.25.
19:12<planetmaker>so 2500 LY in 50 years lifetime
19:13<@Rubidium>but... a return trip means over 5000 years pass on earth, right?
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19:13<planetmaker>No return flights ;-)
19:13<planetmaker>And yes, it means that
19:14<planetmaker>This calculation has one nasty glitch: it doesn't consider acceleration ;-)
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: what if mankind builds faster space ships within these 5000 years? and surpasses the original crow?
19:14<planetmaker>sure
19:14<planetmaker>what should happen?
19:14<planetmaker>the original crew will find a settled planet ;-)
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>they find a fully populated system
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>with technologies far beyond their own
19:15<planetmaker>and they'll be gaped at like oddities from a far distant past. Which even would be true
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19:15<Eddi|zuHause>and a race that they might not recognize as human
19:15<planetmaker>5000 years is evolutionary no time
19:16<@Rubidium>not for linguistics :)
19:16<ccfreak2k>Time enough for love.
19:16<planetmaker>Except you assume evolution of Borgs or so.
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>not natural evolution, but genetic engineering?
19:17<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: well... that's possible. Would be an interesting thing to observe as 3rd party ;-)
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19:18<planetmaker>"any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
19:18<planetmaker>that would be the other interesting experiment to observe when those civs would meet
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>"any technology distinguishible from magic is not sufficiently advanced yet" :p
19:19<planetmaker>you'll not perceive the technology of your time as magic. It's usual.
19:19<planetmaker>But... what would today look like to a brass-age human?
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>i know plenty of people who consider my programs as magic :)
19:19<planetmaker>*bronce
19:20<planetmaker>hehe
19:20<ccfreak2k>planetmaker, someone else said that a few mins ago while some guy was going on about polymers.
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>and that's really simple stuff as in "when tank == 90% full => close valve" :p
19:23<planetmaker>god help, if you programme Leuna ;-)
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>not that big ;)
19:24<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: and then wondering why the tank overflowed?
19:24<planetmaker>lol
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: no, in the program it's actually a >= ;)
19:25<@Rubidium>yeah, sorry but tank filledness is a double, so the 90% is converted to a double and then we do == :)
19:25<planetmaker>hehe
19:25<planetmaker>With what do you programme such stuff, Eddi|zuHause ?
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: it's actually a 16-bit integer
19:26<planetmaker>I only know LabView myself, and I know of some Siemens stuff which runs some larger systems
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it's an SPS
19:27<@Rubidium>LabView, is that that drag'n'program 'language'?
19:27<planetmaker>Yes and no
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19:28<@Rubidium>hmm, remember the good times... linking matlab, java and labview together :)
19:28<planetmaker>yeah, that's the 'no' part ;-)
19:28<@Rubidium>(for some reason image acquisition in matlab wasn't fast enough)
19:29<planetmaker>well... image aquisition speed is ressource heave ;-)
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: http://www.abbplc.com/pdf/907AC1131english.pdf
19:29<planetmaker>and shows also nicely the difference between brutto and netto data rate
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19:30<Eddi|zuHause>that's the IDE that got shipped with the module
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>they allow programming in 5 different "languages"
19:31<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: same way like .Net is a dozen or so languages, right?
19:32<planetmaker>sounds very similar to the SPS the drop tower in Bremen uses for its operation
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: yeah, something like that
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: "Instruction List (IL)" is assembler like, "Structured Text (ST)" is pascal-like, the others are some kind of graphical representation
19:33-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77C40.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
19:33<planetmaker>though IIRC it was from Siemens.
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19:33<planetmaker>and now there was not even a textual representation ;-)
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19:38<planetmaker>now time for sleep. Sleep well, too
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19:43<aber>Where is the problem with OS X 10.6 ?
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>read the thread.
19:43<PeterT>aber: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=45247
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>man... these cats totally tore apart my rails :(
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20:39<ccfreak2k>Will openttd search for openttd.cfg in places other than PERSONAL_DIR?
20:39<@Rubidium>yes
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21:23<Priski>does anyone has any experience about using Mercurial?
21:24<PeterT>Yes, Priski
21:24<PeterT>I have some basic experience
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21:25<Priski>I was just thinkin if it was any good, is there any good reason using it instead of Subversion?
21:25<+glx>it's good for local development
21:25<@Rubidium>it all depends on what you want from your VCS
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21:27<PeterT>I don't really know about the features of Mercurial or Subversion, but I do know that Git has amazing features when it comes to branches
21:27<Priski>:P
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21:29<valhallasw>PeterT: yes. the disadvantage is a steeper learning curve compared to svn
21:30<valhallasw>my head has problems keeping track of what-is-what
21:31<@Rubidium>if you want an increasing revision number that's the same on *all* checkouts, then use subversion. If you don't care about revision numbers you can choose either
21:32<@Rubidium>if you want to do fancy things during tagging, use subversion
21:32<@Rubidium>if you want people to easily make a local testing repository, don't use subversion
21:32<@Rubidium>if you want to have all history locally, don't use subversion
21:32<PeterT>Use git
21:33<@Rubidium>if you want to commit when off-line, don't use subversion
21:33<valhallasw>additionally, if you want to have an headache, use git-svn
21:33<valhallasw>although it probably is great once the headache clears
21:33<Priski>hmmm thanks Rubidium
21:34<@Rubidium>valhallasw: for that we use svn->hg->git :)
21:34<valhallasw>I have never used hg :)
21:36<@Rubidium>oh, and tortoisehg seems to support ssh out-of-the-box where tortoisesvn needs plink or so (or that might be from long ago)
21:36<@Rubidium>oh, if you're using Windows, consider not using git because it doesn't like Windows' file system (it's horribly slow)
21:36<@Rubidium>it's extremely fast on linux though
21:37<Priski>I plan to NOT use git
21:37<Priski>but not because of my lowsy windöws
21:37<Priski>=)
21:38*valhallasw likes colinux quite a lot
21:39<valhallasw>windows as gui, linux in the background for console stuff
21:39<valhallasw>and it's not even terribly slow
21:40<Priski>I just was thinking putting project into google code since SF is the great mammoth which has some gas sometimes
21:41<Priski>the simplicity appeals to me
21:42<@Rubidium>the eula or whatever it may be called doesn't appeal to me
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21:47<@Rubidium>but I agree that SF was sucky and annoying and they have managed to make it even suckier and more annoying than it already was
21:48<@Rubidium>seriously... I can mark only one binary as windows, one as osx and one as linux? What about x64?
21:49<Priski>=)
21:50<Priski>Rubidium: whats tha problematic part about that EULA?
21:51<Priski>just reading these licences, cant even be sure if I read the right one, there seem to be few of them here...
21:51<@Rubidium>that I can read the TOS in such a manner that Google is allowed to change the license. If I can interpret it in that way, then a lawyer can too and presto... my project can be released by Google under a license that they like
21:52<@Rubidium>bye bye clause that gives you the right to request the source if you have a GPL licensed project
21:53<@Rubidium>also Google may, without notice, just remove whatever they like or just plainly terminate the whole thing
21:53<@Rubidium>woopsie... there goes your nice wiki page with the manual
21:54<Priski>yeah, but then again, I was planning to use google code as an intermediate step if project goes well
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21:55<Priski>I can still remove project from there and that terminates the license
21:55<Priski>at least for future versions
21:55<@Rubidium>true, but be aware that migrating a wiki or bug tracker is cumbersome
21:56<Priski>that i know for experience (at least for the bug tracker)
21:56<Priski>:)
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22:12<Priski>great examples on mercurial site, first glance was bit
22:12<Priski>confusing but actually pretty straightforward
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22:12<valhallasw>yeah. we tried doing that for pywikipedia, switching from the sf.net tracker to JIRA
22:13<valhallasw>sf.nets export sucks and JIRAs import functionality sucks :p
22:14<PeterT>Night all
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22:16<Priski>only thing is how to deal with managing "subrepos" since you cannot co one part of the repos
22:17<valhallasw>I think they solved that in a typical programmer sense
22:17<Priski>another thing is the size of that thing since you need the copy of the whole repo
22:17<valhallasw>'this software is so efficient, you won't need subrepo's!'
22:18<Priski>valhallasw: just have to change way to manage project if subproject emerge
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