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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-02-11

---Logopened Thu Feb 11 00:00:18 2010
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00:46<sparr>any thoughts on how various custom server types will work in 1.0.0 in light of ?
00:46<sparr>I've come to like Ex's and Luukland's servers lately, and will miss them greatly
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03:07<Yexo>sparr: if they really need FS#2590 that badly they'll have to distribute custom binaries to the clients
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04:02<Terkhen>good morning
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04:59<TrueBrain>blathijs: you worked on FPGA, not?
05:00<blathijs>TrueBrain: I never actually programmed one, but yes :-)
05:00<TrueBrain>hehe :) I just agreed on my bachelor project: I am going to make Dune2 run on a FPGA :p
05:01<TrueBrain>well .. not sure if there is enough time to do so for real (mostly because of missing drivers), but still :p
05:01<TrueBrain>this is really sick ....
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05:01<blathijs>Cool :-)
05:02<TrueBrain>no: SICK :p
05:02<TrueBrain>either way .....
05:02<blathijs>In what way "run" ? Synthesize a processor on the FPGA and run it on there, or?
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05:02<TrueBrain>I have to read up on the whole process, but what I gathered: convert it to microblades first, then to FPGA
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05:03<TrueBrain>but yes
05:05<blathijs>microblades? Google only tells me about small blade chipped from stone, which isn't what you mean I expect :)
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05:07<roley>this game... is awesome!
05:07<roley>but it's giving me a headache
05:07<TrueBrain>then stop playing it for a while :p
05:08<roley>It's not so much that as I -still- can't figure out how to properly use signals
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05:13<roley>every time I think I've got it figured out, the trains go and do something vapidly stupid
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05:25<roley>does anyone have a good grasp on signals and how to properly use them?
05:30<fjb>Use path signals, put them only there where a waiting train doesn't disturb anything (e.g. doesn't block a crossing).
05:43<roley>jesus, it's like magic
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06:02<@peter1138>heh, fails
06:02<@Rubidium>in what sense?
06:03<@peter1138>ah, i need
06:04*peter1138 ponders bits 1-3 of m5 for level crossing animation
06:06<@peter1138>hmm, and i could actually waste space for real random data for rail types
06:06<@peter1138>but there'd be no equivalent for road types
06:07<@Rubidium>for road types it would be difficult to add it to road stops too
06:07<@Rubidium>so I doubt whether it matters that much
06:08<@peter1138>most things won't use it anyway :)
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08:00<TrueBrain>Fetched 6371kB in 49710d 6h28min1s (0B/s)
08:02<@Rubidium>@calc 2**32/3600/24
08:02<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 49710.2696296
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08:02<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: why did you (or NTP) set your clock back in time?
08:03<Forked>ntpd powered, woowee.
08:04<TrueBrain>Rubidium: dunno, I just did a 'apt-get install vim'
08:04<TrueBrain>which was done after 1 second
08:04<TrueBrain>giving me that as value p
08:05<TrueBrain>at least we know they use a 32bit counter
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08:05<@Rubidium>yeah, 49.7 kinda gave it away :)
08:06<Noldo>it was done so quick that it didn't have time to tick to 0 ?
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08:07<@Rubidium>Noldo: I suspect NTP ran at the time and updated the time, setting it back a bit which means the time (as interpreted by apt) went backwards
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09:00<ccfreak2k>Alright, I think I found the next showstopper.
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09:51<SirSquidness>How's things?
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09:55<@Belugas>sick thing
09:55<@Belugas>in bed
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09:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r19094 /trunk/src/ (blitter/factory.hpp network/network_udp.cpp newgrf_gui.cpp): -Codechange: don't check for NULL values before calling StrEmpty
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10:04<SirSquidness>That is quite suboptimal
10:07<@peter1138>being ill? yes
10:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r19095 /trunk/src/ (base_media_func.h music.cpp): -Fix: segfault when a baseset has an empty metadata field
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10:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r19096 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix: segfault when one of the items in the news_display group in the config file has no value
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10:26*planetmaker hugs Belugas
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10:53<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: don't, you might get infected as well
10:54<SirSquidness>I'm pretty sure IRC hugs have a 0 chance of spreading disease when an appropriate firewall is in use by both parties.
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>that's a pretty lighthearted assumption
10:55<SirSquidness>[citation needed]
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11:24<TrueBrain>Rubidium: why do you no longer check if 3rdparty dir is there?
11:26<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: because it's part of all source downloads for ages, and why do it for 3rdparty and not for e.g. network?
11:26<TrueBrain>Rubidium: the problem is hg and git
11:26<@Rubidium>it had its uses back when it was svn:external-ised and such
11:27<TrueBrain>owh, it is in SVN now
11:27<@Rubidium> <- it's quite there
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>feature request: hide the '?' menu before making a screenshot
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>when making that screenshot from the '?' menu instead of by keyboard
11:37<sparr>Yexo: can you think of any feasible way for such servers to continue to work without a custom binary? requiring custom binaries will cut the playerbase significantly, I think. I currently have 8 or 9 binaries installed, but I think I'm an exception.
11:37<sparr>Yexo: put another way, what is the "right" way to accomplish what those servers are doing?
11:37<Yexo>I don't know what they are doing exactly
11:38<Yexo>a clean option could be to provide a patch to get the functionality they need included in openttd
11:38<Yexo>but most of those server owners don't want to make their changes public, so I don't know if they want to do that
11:38<sparr>the server is building industries, clearing land, adding signs, etc
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>gnah, i ate too much and now i'm getting really tired...
11:41<planetmaker>sparr, have a rich company run by an AI
11:41<planetmaker>a custom programmed AI
11:41<sparr>planetmaker: can that company be excluded from the ranking charts?
11:42<planetmaker>Not client-side
11:42<planetmaker>But those servers are only interested in the players for their high-score
11:42<planetmaker>and there they can do what they want
11:42<sparr>the players are interested in the stats mid-game for strategy
11:42<sparr>one super-rich company would make the company value graph worthless
11:43<planetmaker>can't you re-scale?
11:43<planetmaker>you can hide single companies IIRC
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11:43<planetmaker>toggle on and off, selectively single companies.
11:44<sparr>ahh, by enabling the Key, I see that now
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: basically these servers are cheating by circumventing measures that are specifically designed to prevent cheating
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>this can't possibly work cleanly
11:44<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but their goals are legitimate, and thus there should be a non-cheating route to reach them
11:45<planetmaker>they are. But there are better ways than hacking ;-)
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: but those server owners have shown no intention to get that functionality into trunk
11:45<sparr>those two projects aren't the only ones running custom servers, i imagine others will be bit by this change as well
11:46<planetmaker>sparr, no one disputes that there are good ideas among those.
11:46<planetmaker>But no server owner ever showed anything which would make it usable for all.
11:46<planetmaker>As such they cannot expect custom-tailored backdoors for them
11:46<sparr>until now they didn't need to, everyone could implement it a different way
11:46<Yexo><Yexo> a clean option could be to provide a patch to get the functionality they need included in openttd <- That was my first suggestion
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11:47<sparr>Yexo: I'm going to try.
11:47<sparr>there should be some trivial way to allow player-ish commands to be sent from no player.
11:47<planetmaker>sparr, that problem already existed, btw. also from 0.6.x -> 0.7.x
11:47<sparr>the complaint in the bug is that it will cause a null pointer dereference... crazy idea, why not check if the pointer is null first, and don't dereference it if so?
11:48<Yexo>that is also explained there: every command would have to check if the curernt company is valid
11:48<Yexo>instead the check is done now at a single location
11:48<planetmaker>besides, a server could undo that change.
11:49<planetmaker>Though that certainly would not be sensible
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11:49<Yexo>planetmaker: no, that check is also done on all clients
11:49<sparr>planetmaker: i'm of the impression that undoing just the check would cause segfaults
11:49<planetmaker>hm, ok, then the DoCommand cannot be executed that easily
11:50<frosch123>everytime i join the topic is the same... why don't they just use an ai?
11:50<sparr>frosch123: because that would be a lot more complex (including writing the ai), and would add annoyance for the players (having to filter the AI from charts)
11:50<planetmaker><planetmaker> sparr, have a rich company run by an AI <-- :-) @ frosch123
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11:51<sparr>frosch123: and, not being completely familiar with the AI system, I might suggest there are things an AI can't do that a server can fake a player doing?
11:51<Yexo>sparr: you wouldn't have to actually write an AI, just create an Ai company and let the server fake all commands it curerntly does as coming from that AI
11:51<@Rubidium>Yexo: I have seen what they did with 0.7.5C, I can only extrapolate that what they do on the server is worse
11:51<@Rubidium>and if the ratings aren't enough, just kill the AI and start a new one... instant rating reset :)
11:51<planetmaker>sparr, an AI is a player
11:52<sparr>Yexo: ahh, point taken
11:52<@Rubidium>oh shoot, did I just give them the solution to their problem?
11:52<planetmaker>Rubidium, the money issue (if they need some) remains
11:53<Yexo>planetmaker: as long as the maximum loan is enough money that is no problem
11:53<planetmaker>sparr, but then: coming up with a decent patch would be something productive.
11:53<@Rubidium>planetmaker: only if they want to construct industries I reckon
11:53<planetmaker>Rubidium, that's what I thought of. I think it was also mentioned
11:54<sparr>ok, ignoring the technical aspects for a moment, let me come at this from a community standpoint... a significant fraction (as much as 30% at times) of the active multiplayer playerbase of openttd plays on goal servers.
11:54<planetmaker>17:38 <sparr> the server is building industries, clearing land, adding signs, etc <--there
11:55<planetmaker>sparr, and? If there are no patches what should be done?
11:55<Yexo>sparr: that is no argument
11:55<planetmaker>Make it proper and you'll get your support
11:55<Yexo>given the amount of downloads and the amount of multiplayer players online at any given time I'm quite sure the largest part of the openttd players doesn't play multiplayer
11:55<sparr>Rubidium: killing and restarting the AI generates message spam to all of the players. I am unsure, but it might also result in weird player numbering gaps.
11:55<planetmaker>I'm quite sure that there are devs who like ideas of that kind, too
11:55<@Rubidium>Yexo: no, it's a very good one... about 0.0001% of the community is grievers and the like, just remove passwords from companies and such because it's only troublesome for the rest
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11:56<@Rubidium>also it's a good reason to remove all packet checking as only 0.0001% wants to do bad things (read: cheat or crash the server)
11:57<sparr>Rubidium: the solutions being suggested here involving an AI are far more hackish than what is being done in 0.7.5. an AI would add useless entries to various menus and charts, would add unwanted message spam (I think), would require more code than the current system
11:58<Yexo>and lets use floats like 0.7.5C, it's very well tested and doesn't desync at all
11:58<Ammler>[17:55] <Yexo> given the amount of downloads and the amount of multiplayer players online at any given time I'm quite sure the largest part of the openttd players doesn't play multiplayer <-- downloading isn't playing ;-)
11:58<sparr>Rubidium: i think .0001% is low for that... i'd say more like .1% (1/1000)
11:59<sparr>Ammler: good point. I have downloaded openttd at least fifty times, mostly for different binaries. I am but one player
11:59<Yexo>sparr: agreed, using an Ai company is a hack. however what is done in 0.7.5 is hack too, no reason to allow that again. I'm not against improving the options for a competitive game in trunk, I'm just not interested enough to write it myself
11:59<sparr>Yexo: what if there was always a dummy company in the pool, that never appeared in any interface? not specific to goal servers, just always there period.
12:00<planetmaker>sparr, that'd mean to remove one possible player slot
12:00<sparr>planetmaker: the AI option does that too, no?
12:00<planetmaker>why should that be done?
12:00<planetmaker>sparr, sure. But why do you want to remove for 70% of the players the option to have one company more?
12:00<sparr>I don't think that follows
12:01<planetmaker>Or it cannot have signs
12:01<planetmaker>and other stuff
12:01<sparr>if you are implementing the permanent dummy company and making it ignored by all of the other elements that list companies then you can make it ignored by the slot counter as well
12:01<planetmaker>The problem is the map array
12:02<planetmaker>If you don't want to build anything though...
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12:02<Yexo>if you don't want to build anything you might as well use COMPANY_SPECTATOR
12:03<sparr>building things is less important, but still a factor.
12:03<planetmaker>Yexo, spectator cannot delete anything, build no signs and no industries. A company could
12:04<Yexo>planetmaker: spectator would be able to build signs if someone wrote a patch for it
12:04<planetmaker>sure :-)
12:04<Yexo>deleting stuff and building industries should be company-only indeed
12:04<Yexo>but then that company has to be a valid company, so you remove a normal company slot
12:05<planetmaker>unless you make it a non-normal one and allow cheating for everyone by means of that company
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12:06<planetmaker>actually, from my personal perspective the main issue remains: changes just for the sake to allow further hacks which will not become public don't seem proper
12:07<Yexo>completely agreed
12:08<@Rubidium>we could just compile all binaries with --disable-network. Then the problem's solved too
12:08<planetmaker>For the sake of our servers I'd have to contradict ;-)
12:08<Ammler>you stole us already the id :-P
12:09<planetmaker>hm... did we use it except in wwottdgd/2?
12:09<Yexo><Ammler> you stole us already the id :-P <- what is that about?
12:10<@Rubidium>Yexo: some pseudorandom, but not really random, garbage that was send to the server and that was then not used at the server
12:10<Ammler>planetmaker: it was a planned feature in Avignon
12:10<planetmaker>he :-)
12:10<@Rubidium>Ammler: what were your intentions with it?
12:10<Ammler>we liked to use it like keys.
12:10<planetmaker>The intention was to ban the unique ID in case of (incompetent) grievers
12:11<planetmaker>or to allow access
12:11<@Rubidium>``17. A security system is only as secure as its secret. Beware of pseudo-secrets.''
12:11<planetmaker>But as it can be written and re-written manually it's of course anything but save for people who know about it
12:12<Ammler>he? You still need a valid key?
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12:13<@Rubidium>Ammler: just searching for openttd.cfg and you'll find many many keys
12:13<Ammler>well, it doesn't matter anymore, anyway...
12:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19097 /trunk/src/music/bemidi.cpp: -Fix [FS#3610] (r10444): compilation error in the BeMidi driver (jrepan)
12:14<@Rubidium>if you want to do it 'right', use proper security stuff
12:15<Ammler>key comaring is quite secure, imo.
12:15<Yexo>it didn't compile since r10444?
12:16<@Rubidium>Yexo: yes
12:17<planetmaker>wow. THAT's a time span
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>wtf is a "bemidi"?
12:18<@Rubidium>beos' midi
12:18<planetmaker>Rubidium, the idea was to add some kind of identification to the standard clients. But yes, proper security would then be better... but custom clients ;-)
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't even know we had that :p
12:18<@Rubidium>planetmaker: gnutls or so would probably help with that
12:20<@Rubidium>then you can use e.g. pgp keys for authentication
12:20<Ammler>well, the unique_id was as secure as joining our irc channel and type !password
12:23<planetmaker>hmpf... Bloody FF :S
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12:45<planetmaker>tralalalala lala I thought they'd never end lalalala
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12:45<planetmaker>wrong channel, aber ;-)
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13:10<sparr>planetmaker: "changes just for the sake to allow further hacks which will not become public" <-- you mean like the mod/extension/plugin system that some significant fraction of all games have?
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: the mod/extension/plugin system in openttd is called newgrf
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13:16<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: and the servers in question specifically did NOT use newgrfs, because they would have to make their modification public that way
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13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r19098 /trunk/src/lang/ (21 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 101 changes by kasakg
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 7 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 8 changes by SmatZ
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by habell
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 4 changes by jpx_
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13:51<ccfreak2k>ffff I broke it again.
13:51<SpComb^>ccfreak2k: git!
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13:59<SHADOW-XIII>I wonder when 32bpp is coming in OTTD to replace 8bpp, after 1.0
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14:00<Eddi|zuHause>that is not going to happen
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>a) at best, 32bpp is an ADDITION to 8bpp
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>b) that is already the case
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14:02<SHADOW-XIII>I see, hmm, certainly replacing whole 8bit in official release for 32bit would draw a lot of attention as the graphics looks really nice, afterwards 8 bit could be treated as 32bit replacement for slower devices
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14:05<Eddi|zuHause>SHADOW-XIII: the 32bpp artists are way too uncoordinated, i am not expecting a full and coherent 32bpp release anytime soon
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14:08<SHADOW-XIII>how much % of original graphic is remade for already ? 50 ? 90 ?
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14:10<SHADOW-XIII>changing topic, anyone tried new Opera 10.50 beta ? it is amazing, still little unstable but stable enough for me to move to it as my primary browser now
14:11<SpComb^>don't all the geeks use Chrome these days
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>SHADOW-XIII: the % complete cannot be specified precisely because they are uncoordinated
14:13<SHADOW-XIII>SpComb^: chrome is weak, I cannot even change keyboard shortcuts, and new Opera is faster even than chrome
14:13<SHADOW-XIII>new JavaScript engine is cracking balls men :P ... it's like 5-7 times faster than any other browser in Lifehacker test
14:21<aber>other than Chrome, Safari and Firefox
14:23<Xaroth>tests are biased
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14:29<ccfreak2k> Could this possibly be zoomed in any further?
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14:30<@Rubidium>not with that patch
14:30<@Rubidium>anyhow, the trains looks more wrong when zoomed in that far
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14:31<SpComb^>mm, big pixels
14:32<@Rubidium>SHADOW-XIII: they don't even know how many sprites they need to replace, so giving a percentage won't work (estimates range from ~3000 to ~10000)
14:32<@Rubidium>and that's only for one zoom level; they 'want' to make graphics for at least 2 and maybe 3 levels, so... 10 to 30 thousand
14:34<@Rubidium>not to mention that they don't have exactly a stable specification
14:34<ccfreak2k>Alright, I think _DEBUG causes the binary to not work on the cube./
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14:39<PeterT>Hi all
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14:53<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: I am unclear how this sort of modification would fit into the capabilities of a newgrf
14:54<ccfreak2k>I think libdb and/or gdb cause all other threads to not run while the main thread is being debugged.
14:54<ccfreak2k>And then LWP_JoinThread() gets called, effectively causing the cube to hang.
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15:17<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: that only means one of two things: adapt the modificatiions so that they can be covered by newgrfs, or adapt the newgrf spec that it covers the modifications
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15:20<PeterT>Hi Wolf01
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15:23<__ln__>night Wolf01!
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15:24<@peter1138>2 random bits is probably enough?
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15:33<PeterT>English isn't in the Game Options?
15:34<PeterT>I have the english_US.lng file in /lang
15:36<aber>hmm? English(UK) English(US)
15:37<PeterT>No, those aren't available
15:37<PeterT>but most of the other languages are there
15:38<aber>Probably the language monster.
15:39<aber>You need to offer him cookies.
15:39<PeterT>any relevant answers?
15:39<aber>What did you do?
15:39<ctibor|spi>learn french then .-)
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15:40<aber>i vote for "Lëtzebuergesch"
15:44<aber>but i believe "Luxembourgish" should be the correct spelling inside the menu.
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15:46<ctibor>they have their own language?
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15:48<Eddi|zuHause>they claim that it's an own language
15:48<aber>yes, it's like really awkward german. But i like how they take german.
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>everybody else says it's a dialect of german
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>even though a lot of EU facilities are in luxembourg, the EU does not consider luxembourgish an official language of the EU
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>90% of the population there also speak french and german
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>in the dialect spectrum, it's classified as "Mittelfränkisch"
15:52<ctibor>I see
15:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r19099 /trunk/src/ (pathfinder/opf/opf_ship.cpp table/airporttile_ids.h): -Doc: two files had the wrong name in the @file comment
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15:55<Eddi|zuHause>(with the "Francs" being one of the major germanic tribes after the fall of the roman empire who moved into former roman territories)
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15:57<__ln__>Luxembourg is a surprisingly french-speaking place.
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>well, french is the "office" language
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>luxembourgish is the "popular" language
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>after german fell somewhat unpopular during WWII
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>the majorly french speaking part of luxembourg was transferred to belgium somewhere in the 19th century
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16:02<PeterT>Hello HackaLittleBit
16:03<HackaLittleBit>STR_CONTENT_DETAIL_UPDATE gives me compile error in french.txt
16:04<Yexo>just wait untill the language commit tomorrow
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16:05<HackaLittleBit>yexo: do you have any idear what would be a reasonable penalty if train is longer than platform?
16:06<Yexo>the current penalty?
16:06<Yexo>or why is it unreasonable?
16:07<HackaLittleBit>Because of the long loading time also the rating goes down
16:08<planetmaker>That's sensible, isn't it?
16:08<planetmaker>I'd rate the company also bad, if I'd have to crawl through the mud to the wagon
16:08<HackaLittleBit>passenger yes
16:08<HackaLittleBit>pragnent women also yes
16:08<HackaLittleBit>oil no
16:08<Yexo>the rating doesn't go down if you have a long loading time
16:09<planetmaker>oh, coal cannot complain. But if I order coal and they drop it the next street, I'd give it a bad rating, too
16:09<planetmaker>Yexo: indirectly: less frequent service
16:09<Yexo>well the less frequent service is a choice you make
16:09<planetmaker>with slow loading there's a lower max. throughput.
16:10<planetmaker>But then I don't understand what's wrong with the current situation either
16:10<Yexo>that's also a penalty for your own choices
16:10<planetmaker>yup :-)
16:10<HackaLittleBit>not only that, long trains disrupt trafffic flow
16:10<HackaLittleBit>alsothats a penalty
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16:10<Yexo>so the real question is: why are you making your trains so long?
16:11<HackaLittleBit>because I like them
16:12<HackaLittleBit>but did you see the code?
16:13<Yexo>not recently
16:13<HackaLittleBit> unloading_time += (overhang * unloading_time << 1) / 8;
16:13<HackaLittleBit>unloading time is something like 40 or 20
16:14<Yexo>now I'm only wondering why that line doesn't read: unloading_time += (overhang * unloading_time) / 4;
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16:16<HackaLittleBit>do some debugging and you will find it is rediculous
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>the use of << is probably against coding style there
16:17<HackaLittleBit>eddy I checked that and in assembler it shifts alsa so that is faster
16:18<Bluelight>Now I'm just witing for a new router again, and then my server will be up and running.. :)
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>every modern compiler can replace *2 with a shift. using * over << in arithmetic expressions increases readability
16:19<HackaLittleBit>never checked that but I will:)
16:23<@peter1138>Yexo, 1/8th being the shortest length of a vehicle
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16:23<HackaLittleBit>I think it is half a tile
16:24<HackaLittleBit>2 wagons per tile
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>yay for magic numbers ;)
16:24<ccfreak2k>What's the order of operations for multiply and shift?
16:25<Yexo>that doesn't matter here
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: shifting is a multiplying operation, so they likely have same priority
16:26<ccfreak2k>Also, how well does openttd work with thread_none?
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: afair you can disable threads by a configure option
16:26<ccfreak2k>I'm using a custom makefile.
16:27<aber>nope, ist (*/%)(+-)(<<>>)
16:27<ccfreak2k>Unless you mean "game config".
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: doesn't remove the "#ifdef"s
16:28<HackaLittleBit>yexo the rating goes realy down with long loading time
16:28<ccfreak2k>You mean NO_THREADS? :)
16:28<frosch123>ccfreak2k: threads are used during map generation, autosave, and sdl video rendering. maybe also sound
16:29<ccfreak2k>frosch123, what I meant by my question is, would disabling multithreaded support be some kind of mortal sin and cause my build to break in unspeakable ways?
16:29<@Rubidium>./configure --without-thread
16:29<frosch123>likely not
16:29<@Rubidium>./configure --without-threads
16:30<@Rubidium>no idea whether it actually works though
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: no, it should not break anything, but you lose some gimmics like progress bar during world generation and saving in the background
16:30<ccfreak2k>That's ok, I'll deal with it.
16:31<ccfreak2k>I -really- should figure out what's causing it to hang, though.
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16:32<@Rubidium>yup, --without-threads seems to work fine
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16:39<ccfreak2k>Also, fun fact: in my current builds, it takes about 10-15 seconds to reach the first GenerateWorld() call in ttd_main().
16:40<@Rubidium>that's better than my laptop (if I include booting)
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16:51<frosch123>ah, the revision number has passed the number of missing translations
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16:57<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: that would be a huge undertaking, to add an entire new class of newgrfs (something like "Game Type", maybe)
16:59<sparr>you would need an entirely new scripting engine of some sort, among other large tasks
17:00<@SmatZ>frosch123: just add new language ;)
17:02<ccfreak2k>HOLY HELL
17:02<ccfreak2k>IT WOKR
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17:03<Nite_Owl>Hello all
17:03<@SmatZ>hello Nite_Owl
17:03<frosch123>just which?
17:04<Nite_Owl>Hello SmatZ
17:05<Wolf01>'night all
17:05<Nite_Owl>I take it you are aware of the problems with today's Windows 64bit nightly ??
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17:06<@SmatZ>Nite_Owl: I think we aren't
17:06<Yexo>Nite_Owl: only if you mean the french translation
17:06<@SmatZ>there is known problem with win32 binaries hanging when map generating is cancelled
17:07<Nite_Owl>not sure of the cause but once applied the game will not even start - faults right off the bat
17:08<Yexo>please open a bug report at and attach the crash.log/crash.dmp files
17:08<HackaLittleBit>Smatz: since when do you know that?
17:08<@SmatZ>HackaLittleBit: today
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17:08<SpComb^>ccfreak2k: unlikely!
17:09<Nite_Owl>I did notice that the zip file did NOT contain the usual number of files - 71 as opposed to the usual 84
17:09<@SmatZ>missing lang files?
17:09<ccfreak2k>SpComb^, you got me, I haven't verified that it works 100% yet.
17:09<ccfreak2k>However, I got this lovely screenshot:
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17:10<@SmatZ>ccfreak2k: great :)
17:10<Nite_Owl>not sure - I only noticed as it ran through my virus scanner
17:10<@SmatZ>ccfreak2k: why not 1.0.0?
17:11<ccfreak2k>SmatZ, it's still in beta right?
17:11<Yexo>in he r19098 win64 zip are only 32 language files, in the r19068 files there are 46 language files
17:11<ccfreak2k>That would be why.
17:11<ccfreak2k>As soon as 1.0 is finalized, I'll port my patch over.
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17:12<Yexo>the french language file looks corrupted (43kk instead of +- 100kb) and all languages alfabetically before french are missing
17:12<@SmatZ>Nite_Owl: crashes for me on win64 too
17:13<Yexo>same holds for the win32 zip file
17:13<Yexo>and also a crash
17:13<Yexo>I guess due to the corrupted french language file
17:14<frosch123> <- matches actually
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17:14<Nite_Owl>I know there were Windows compiling problems yesterday so I thought this just might be an extension of that
17:14<frosch123>it did not compile any languages after french
17:15<@SmatZ>so it fails because it tries to load czech.lng, but it is missing?
17:15<@SmatZ>whoa :-p
17:16<frosch123>so Nite_Owl, you have to pick one of the other languages :)
17:16<@SmatZ>but it doesn't crash on linux
17:16<@SmatZ>when I remove czech.lng
17:17<@SmatZ>it would be win-specific, and that's strange :)
17:17<frosch123>maybe english.lng is more important
17:17<@SmatZ>even if I remove english.lng
17:17<frosch123>or the broken french
17:17<@SmatZ>it starts in... finnish?
17:17<ccfreak2k>Sound works.
17:17<Yexo> callstack
17:18<Nite_Owl>I would if I could get it to start
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17:18<Yexo>it's segfaulting because the french language file is only half-complete
17:19<frosch123>so Nite_Owl, try deleting french.lng
17:19<Nite_Owl>I reverted back to 19068 already
17:19<HackaLittleBit>my compilation stops at line 1813 in french.txt
17:20<Nite_Owl>but I can give it a shot for the sake of finding out what is wrong
17:21<Yexo>the problem is already fixed in wt, just wait until the language commit tomorrow
17:22<Nite_Owl>not a problem - I think I can hold out until then
17:22<Yexo>you can also just delete the french language file and play with a compiled language
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17:24<Nite_Owl>I never use any language other than English anyway
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17:24<Yexo>the english language file wasn't complied in the latest nightly so that's a problem
17:25<@SmatZ>just removing french.lng solves the problem
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17:25<@SmatZ>but OTTD starts in Estonian (?)
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17:25<Yexo>all linux builds have valid language files for all languages and no language file for french
17:25<Yexo>that seems like the proper behavior
17:26<@Rubidium>blaim MSVC :)
17:26<@SmatZ>still the fact OTTD crashes is disturbing
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17:27<Nite_Owl>as long as you are aware of and have fixed the problem that is all that maters. I am more than happy with that and will wait for tomorrow's nightly
17:27<@Rubidium>to stop it from crashing you'd probably need to add some metadata to the language file to check for validity, i.e. a checksum
17:28<@Rubidium>besides that, I think strgen should remove the file if it fails to compile it
17:28<Nite_Owl>although I do seem to be the bringing of ill news the past two days
17:28<@SmatZ>yeah, shot the messenger :-)
17:29<@Rubidium>oh, someone already reported it as a bug :)
17:30<@Rubidium>too bad I don't really have the time to fix that stuff
17:37*Eddi|zuHause listens to "MIAAUUU" in stereo
17:38<@SmatZ> impressive, broken french.lng managed to crash valgrind :)
17:38<@SmatZ>I will spend some time with it ;)
17:41<@SmatZ>ReadFileToMem(_dynlang.ent[lang_index].file, &len, 200000);
17:42<@SmatZ>maxsize == 200000, greek.lng is reaching that limit :)
17:42<ccfreak2k>It takes 36.5 seconds for OpenTTD to go from start to title screen.
17:43<@SmatZ>24 seconds generating empty map + loading intro?
17:43<ccfreak2k>The map probably takes about 10 of those seconds.
17:44<@SmatZ>you have debug build, right?
17:44<ccfreak2k>It's compiled with -g -Os -DNDEBUG.
17:45<ccfreak2k>It also doesn't init network or AI.
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18:08<rait>r19098 crashes on startup. is this reported?
18:08<Yexo>remove french.lng from the lang directory and it works
18:09<rait>somehow my default language has changed
18:10<Yexo>all languages alphabetically before french aren't included in the last nightly
18:10<rait>including english? thats bad
18:11<ccfreak2k>Well, that's the thing about nightly builds.
18:11<ccfreak2k>Sometimes they break.
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18:12<rait>so ... i fired up beta4 and it's still spanish. how do i change it?
18:13<rait>never mind ...
18:14<rait>is only the latest nightly affected?
18:14<@Rubidium>only the nightly build with MSVC
18:15<HackaLittleBit>not only also with msys
18:16<@Rubidium>true, but way way less than MSVC
18:17<HackaLittleBit>you mean slower?
18:17<@Rubidium>i.e. msys builds (or all non MSVC builds) only crash if you used French, MSVC builds crash if the chosen langauge was alphabetically less than or equal to french
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18:19<HackaLittleBit>I took french out before compiling with msys
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18:22<PeterT>Visual studio up and running!
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18:25<PeterT>ccfreak2k: Congrats on getting ti to work on GameCube!
18:25<PeterT>too bad no one has a gamecube anymore
18:25<ccfreak2k>Au contraire.
18:25<ccfreak2k>It would run perfectly well on the Wii as well.
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18:37<sparr>Is it possible for a newgrf to affect vehicles from all other GRFs? cost, running cost, speed, etc
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18:43<@Rubidium>sparr: possibly, although it might get tricky with vehicle pools
18:47<Terkhen>good night
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18:48<Eddi|zuHause>sparr: a grf can change vehicle basecosts globally if it doesn't define any vehicles itself
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19:02<PeterT>will this french language problem be solved in tommorow's commit?
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19:07<PeterT>Anyone have experience with x64 compiling?
19:07<PeterT>I got a few errors (ignore the french.txt one)
19:11<Yexo>you have not properly installed directmusic for use with a x64 compiler
19:11<PeterT>Oh, is there a guide for that somewhere?
19:11<Yexo>no idea
19:11<PeterT>btw, that's exactly what happened
19:11<@Rubidium>just ask in #openttd.compile
19:12<ccfreak2k>Yexo, quick, what number am I thinking of?
19:12<ccfreak2k>I guess there's a bit of an identity crisis.
19:14<@SmatZ>ccfreak2k: so what number were you thinking of?
19:15<@Rubidium>identity crisis? How can that happen? I don't even have an identity...
19:15<+glx><PeterT> Oh, is there a guide for that somewhere? <-- just do like you did for win32
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19:15<ccfreak2k>SmatZ, it was 3.
19:15<Shapeshifter>Have any of you played openttd on the Nokia n900? It runs really well. Good stuff. But the lack of a "hovering" mouse poses a tricky problem at times ;)
19:15<PeterT>glx: oh, i have directx installed already, so this will be easy
19:15<PeterT>thank you :-)
19:16<+glx>just set paths ;)
19:16<@Rubidium>yay... I was right :) (3 = 0/0 => 3 * 0 = 0 => 0 = 0)
19:16<PeterT>yeah, my express/professional doesn't always find the needed libraries with paths
19:16<PeterT>I'd rather copy the dxgui.lib to my OpenTTD useful location
19:17<+glx>if it fails to find libs then you failed to set paths
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19:18<@SmatZ>ccfreak2k: and the point is?
19:19<ccfreak2k>I wanted to see if Yexo was psychic.
19:19<ccfreak2k>Turns out he was just a lucky guesser.
19:19<@Rubidium>· <- there
19:19<Yexo>of course I'm not psychic :p
19:19<Yexo>and what makes me a lucky guesser?
19:20<Yexo>PeterT's error was easily deduced from the log he posted, that was no guess at all
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19:21<@SmatZ>Yexo: (4+2)/2 = 3
19:22<Yexo>hehe :)
19:22<Yexo>and your answer was -1+4=3
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19:23<@Rubidium>so everyone was right! :)
19:23<PeterT>glx: Thank you, works perfectly so far
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19:25<@Rubidium>3.1415926539879323846 <- what am/was I thinking of?
19:26<PeterT>You're missing a 5
19:27<PeterT>scratch that, replace the nine with a five
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19:32<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: nah, that's not what I was thinking of
19:33-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
19:33<@SmatZ>hello Eddi
19:33<@SmatZ>or is he really gone?
19:33-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
19:33<@SmatZ>I knew he will be back soon ;)
19:33<PeterT>he is always back soon
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>unless i'm not one time...
19:35<@Rubidium>,1415926539879323846%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff <- that's what I was thinking of :)
19:35<@SmatZ>now that's a short link
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19:36<@Rubidium>nah, it's fed through google translate, cause it's Dutch
19:36<@Rubidium>and it's nice to see what a mess google translate makes of it :)
19:36<@SmatZ>"A very attentive student knew UT-news" was it you? :)
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19:37<@SmatZ>oh :(
19:37<@Rubidium>it's from way before I started to study there :)
19:38*SmatZ remembers just 3.1415926536
19:38<@SmatZ>hehe :)
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19:43<PeterT>SpComb^: Remember those batchfiles for building with MSVC? Do you have a copy that I can download to test?
19:45<SpComb^>the ones I have online are slightly outdated (i.e. a little broken)
19:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: yexo * r19100 /trunk/projects/ (generate generate.vbs langs_vs80.vcproj langs_vs90.vcproj): -Fix: [MSVC] don't stop building language files if building one language file fails
19:46<PeterT>Thanks ^
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19:47<SpComb^> <-- those should work, I think
19:50<PeterT>where should be placed?
19:51<SpComb^>it'll put the build/ dir next to it
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19:53<PeterT>what is build tag?
19:53<PeterT>and "[ ENV=VALUE [...]]"?
19:53<PeterT>I entered this: PeterP@PETER ~
19:53<PeterT>$ ./ -P win32 -c Release r19100
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19:54<SpComb^>those are the defaults for -P/-c
19:54<SpComb^>build tag is the name of your build
19:55<SpComb^>and svn wc is the path to an svn working copy
19:55<PeterT>So what should I add to the command above?
19:55<SpComb^>./ path-to-checkout-of-trunk myfunbuild
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19:58<SpComb^>a) create a build/ dir - forgot that big b) also download build-msvc90.bat and
19:59<PeterT>why not just add a "mkdir" and "wget"?
20:00<SpComb^>mkdir is missing, yes - wget no, that'd be silly
20:01-!-Diareal [] has quit [autokilled: possible spambot. Mail with questions. (2010-02-12 01:01:21)]
20:01<PeterT>wow, this is great
20:01<PeterT>how are you building MSVC from outside of MSVC?
20:02<SpComb^>it has a command-line interface that's just about barely useable
20:02<SpComb^>just don't try and interrupt/abort the script with ^C while it's building, or nasty things will happen
20:02<PeterT>sounds kinky
20:03<PeterT>where is this command line?
20:03<SpComb^>look at build-msvc90.bat
20:03<PeterT>you mean commands from cmd.exe
20:03<PeterT>oh, the "call"
20:04<@SmatZ>someone please kill PeterT
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20:04<@SmatZ>yay it works
20:04<SpComb^>SmatZ: OFTC implements this autokill feature
20:04-!-PeterT [] has joined #openttd
20:05<SpComb^>if you can get someone to say the right stuff, or join the right channel, OFTC can autokill them
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20:06<sparr>Eddi|zuHause: how about infrastructure costs, such as making road removal profitable?
20:06<SpComb^>PeterT: as I said, create a build/ dir
20:06<Yexo>someone please kill PeterT
20:06<SpComb^>er, builds
20:06<Yexo>SmatZ: ah, local only? :p
20:06<PeterT>oh, ok
20:06<SpComb^>yes, builds, in plural :(
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20:07<@SmatZ>Yexo: it has some delay :-/
20:07<PeterT>what the hell?
20:07<Yexo><sparr> Eddi|zuHause: how about infrastructure costs, such as making road removal profitable? <- you can do that with a newgrf
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20:10<@SmatZ>I was surprised how PeterT teached TrueBrain about @ports today :)
20:10<@SmatZ>it's like, pupil learning his teacher...
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>it's like the worst fitting phrase to the situation, but "every good teacher gets his pupil to the point where he surpasses him"
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21:09*Belugas stretches
21:10*Rubidium waves
21:10*Belugas waves back, after wondering if he'll e able to sleep again tonigh
21:11<@Belugas>guess it's possible
21:19<@Belugas>cute. my son left me a note with a kiss, a hearth and a dad :)
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22:00<@Belugas>so... head to bed. Rubidium, watch out, you will never be normal after living under glx's life style/time zone ;)
22:01<@Belugas>night out
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22:08<ccfreak2k>I fixed the multithreading issue.
22:08<ccfreak2k>I made a small typo in that EndCritical() didn't actually unlock the mutex. :x
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---Logclosed Fri Feb 12 00:00:18 2010