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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-02-12

---Logopened Fri Feb 12 00:00:18 2010
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04:58<@peter1138>00 6d da 48 b5 22 90 fd 6b d8 45 b3 20 8d fb 68
04:58<@peter1138>b0 1e 8b f8 66 d3 41 ae 1b 89 f6 63 d1 3e ac 19
04:58<@peter1138>61 ce 3c a9 17 84 f1 5f cc 39 a7 14 82 ef 5c ca
04:58<@peter1138>is that pseudo random enough?
05:00<TrueBrain>(hihi, sorry, just had to :p)
05:00<__ln__>no; i closed my eyes for a second and after that those numbers were still exactly the same.
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05:02<TrueBrain>funny: 4th, 10th, 16th and 20th end with a 8, 26th, 32th, 36th and 42th end with a 9. 48th ends with a 'a', so I expect either 54th or 52th to do so too
05:04<TrueBrain>(in general, the lower 8th bit is 'predictable' (with an error of 1))
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05:08<planetmaker>FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF is just as likely, if we assume uniform distribution
05:10<TrueBrain>s/8th bit/4 bits/
05:10<TrueBrain>planetmaker: not really, his is 48 bytes long, yours isn't :p
05:10<planetmaker>so mine is even more likely :-P
05:10<TrueBrain>and the entropy of your sequence will be 0
05:11<TrueBrain>his is a bit more than 0, but still on the low side :p
05:11<planetmaker>random-ness was asked, not entropy ;-)
05:11<TrueBrain>asking if something is random enough, is asking for the entropy value ;)
05:11<planetmaker>and 'random' depends upon the model you want to put in. Uniform, gaussian, ...
05:11<TrueBrain>(even more if you just assume it comes from a random generator)
05:12<TrueBrain>as if not, it indeed is always random
05:12<TrueBrain>but even this sentence in that case is completely random ;)
05:13<TrueBrain>(at least, from your point of view ;))
05:14<planetmaker>basically it's a question for predictability and not random-ness, though ;-)
05:14<TrueBrain>hence, entropy ;)
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05:28<Terkhen>good morning
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05:40<CIA-9>OpenTTD: alberth * r19101 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Fix (r19039): Click sound was not played when pressing zoom in/out buttons.
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06:00<roboboy>do programs like Autopilot actually take full control over the console OpenTTD is running in?
06:01<valhallasw>although it supports a pass-through console
06:02<@peter1138>stdio doesn't work like that
06:02<@peter1138>the 'flow' is terminal <--> autopilot <--> openttd
06:03<@peter1138>and they're actually just file descriptors
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07:11<CIA-9>OpenTTD: yexo * r19102 /trunk/Doxyfile: -Codechange; let doxygen parse as much code as possible
07:14<CIA-9>OpenTTD: alberth * r19103 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use px/py for pixel coordinates in PixelToTile(), as promised by the documentation.
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07:21<JayDubeu>Holy sh--
07:21<JayDubeu>Did not expect this many people in the channel.
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07:24<Alberth>shall we all leave?
07:24<JayDubeu>If you like.
07:24<Alberth>nah :)
07:24<JayDubeu>It would give me some privacy to take a shower.
07:25<JayDubeu>You can just all watch.
07:25<Alberth>most do, it seems
07:25<__ln__>Don't take the shower anywhere, I'll need it tomorrow.
07:25<JayDubeu>Ahaha. Bad pun. :|
07:26<Alberth>hmm, openttdcoop does seem to play other sizes than 2Kx2K too.
07:26<Yexo>in fact, they never play 2kx2k
07:27<KenjiE20>don't normally go above 1kx1k
07:28<KenjiE20>most connections/PCs can't handle the load at that point
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07:28*JayDubeu will be setting up a dedicated server tomorrow.
07:28<JayDubeu>I wanted to add TTD onto the server.
07:29<JayDubeu>Already hosting Freelancer and Civ4.
07:29<Noldo>There are currently more servers than players, right?
07:29<Alberth>usually, yes
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07:29<JayDubeu>Private Server though. :V
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07:32<planetmaker><Alberth> hmm, openttdcoop does seem to play other sizes than 2Kx2K too. <-- 1Megatiles is the limit. Clients cannot handle more usually
07:32<planetmaker>And we don't want to deter half our player base
07:32<planetmaker>And it's not like the smaller maps are no fun
07:33<planetmaker>And KenjiE20 told so already :-P
07:34<Alberth>I agree. I was just thinking that openttdcoop has the man power to fill such a map.
07:35<planetmaker>We certainly would. But no one could play them
07:35<planetmaker>Painful experience tells so
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07:36<planetmaker>also it's hard to admin a server, if you cannot join it yourself anymore ;-)
07:36<roboboy>ive been on coop maps that are nearly foold and kept geting desynched
07:37<cornjuliox>have the devs ever considered extending the single player gameplay?
07:37<roboboy>what do you mean?
07:38<KenjiE20>sandbox isn't extended enough?
07:38<cornjuliox>i mean adding like an in-game tutorial for newbies, and a "campaign"
07:38<cornjuliox>a real singleplayer campaign
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07:38<KenjiE20>there used to be tutorials in TTDLX, so that'd be cool
07:39<roboboy>their implementation was borked
07:40<roboboy>just changing the news settngs would brake them
07:40<cornjuliox>KenjiE20, you're talking about the recorded ones, right?
07:40<cornjuliox>i remember those
07:40<Alberth>you can design a campaign without further openttd support. Just write a sequence of assignments on a wiki page
07:40<cornjuliox>one of them was supposed to show you how the train signals worked but it looked like whoever was recording them gave up halfway through
07:41<cornjuliox>Alberth, i mean one in-game, a "forced" campaign
07:41<cornjuliox>like the kind you see in Rollercoaster Tycoon
07:42<Alberth>what would be different?
07:42<planetmaker>Not until there are scriptable scenarios. Which is an illusion ;-)
07:42<planetmaker>at least now. As no one works on it.
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07:43<planetmaker>(except if Alberth has super-secret projects going on :-P )
07:43<Alberth>always :p
07:43<KenjiE20>so secret even he doesn't know about it
07:43<planetmaker>ha, I knew it!
07:43<Ammler>"I have a patch for it..."
07:43<Alberth>planetmaker: ask KenjiE20. he seems to know what I am doing
07:43<planetmaker>that's another person ;-), Ammler :-)
07:44<Alberth>I do want to try hooking a AI into the GUI system one day....
07:44<planetmaker>what do you mean by hooking an AI into the GUI?
07:44<Alberth>Probably I can never release that code.
07:45<Alberth>AI controlling the mouse pointer, and clicking
07:45<Alberth>you'd need that for a tutorial
07:45<planetmaker>Not necessarily
07:45<planetmaker>Depends upon how you want the tutorial to work
07:45<roboboy>I'm geusing it would actually show what GUI buttons were clicked by the AI so as to kinda replicate the old TTD macro tutorials but in a more flexible way
07:46<Alberth>roboboy: yeah, that's what you'd want to show, right?
07:46<planetmaker>You could just display a sequence of instructions (with images) and continue, if the right action was taken
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07:47<roboboy>\but we want to minimise the space they take up and thus the amount of data being downloaded to play the game
07:47<Ammler>planetmaker: but that, you can do with the wiki aswell
07:47<planetmaker>Ammler, no, you don't have control over the flow then
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07:47<roboboy>or I'm asumiong thats what CS wanted and Alberth wants (escept CS had to fi it on Floppy/CD)
07:48<Ammler>like that:
07:48<planetmaker>he, long time I looked at it :-)
07:48<planetmaker>Maybe it should be updated somewhen
07:48<planetmaker>...long time since...
07:49<Ammler>no pbs, else it is still very good
07:49<Alberth>wrong graphics :p
07:49<planetmaker>well. A savegame cannot have wrong graphics ;-)
07:50<Ammler>the gui might differ now
07:50<roboboy>the old TTD Tutorials are even reliant on the old Map Generator. TTDO's new map generator amongst other TTDP settings brake them
07:50<Alberth>yeah, like planetmaker discovered two new buttons on the smallmap recently :p
07:57<planetmaker>hehe :-) @ Alberth
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08:47<CIA-9>OpenTTD: alberth * r19104 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Fix (r19039): Stablize main view centering in smallmap.
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09:16<[Jako]>is there any way to stop industry from disappearin?
09:16<[Jako]>i think there is some differences betveen scenarios
09:20<Alberth>[Jako]: no
09:20<Alberth>Belugas: hai
09:20<Noldo>shark? where?
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09:21*Alberth gives Noldo an english dictionary
09:21<@Belugas>[Jako] : play smaller maps. You will think there are less industries disappearing since there are less industries
09:22<Noldo>Alberth: :P
09:22<Alberth>also, when you service industry, they disappear less fast :)
09:22<Alberth>Noldo: you needed something to throw, didn't you?
09:22<Eddi|zuHause2>Noldo: unfortunately that joke doesn't work in english...
09:22-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
09:24<Noldo>now don't tell me we managed to mangle 3 languages in to one "joke"
09:24<Alberth>ok, I won't tell
09:24<Noldo>but it's true! isn't it?
09:25<TrueBrain>I only count 2 :(
09:25*Alberth also counts two
09:25<Noldo>hai is finnish for shark
09:26<ptr>haj is swedish for shark
09:26<TrueBrain>Noldo: where does the 3rd language come from?
09:28<Noldo>well, there is the hypothetical language where the so-called-joke works that isn't english
09:28<TrueBrain>always a good excuse :)
09:30<Noldo>and I know it isn't finnish either
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>Hai is also german for shark
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09:33<__ln__>haj is also danish for shark, afaik.
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>postulate 1: in all sane languages, "Hai" [modulo spelling] means "shark"
09:35<rane>whoa, it is?
09:35<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, is 'shark' just another spelling of "Hai"?
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'd love to see that sequence of vowel shifts ;)
09:36<@Belugas>to me, "Hai" is more related to the sound a human been would produce when seeing a shark swimming nearby
09:37<planetmaker>Belugas, that'd be more "haaiiiiiii!" - especially for swimmers ;-)
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09:38<@Belugas>thus the idea...
09:39<@Belugas>a scream for fear!
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09:42<planetmaker>hm. "Hai" is a word which was derived from the 17th century Dutch word "haai". That Dutch word in its turn (like the Scotish 'hoe') was derived from the synonymous Icelandic 'hai'
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09:43<planetmaker>Originally 'hai' it described a hook, so that the fish was named after its hook-shaped fin
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09:43<planetmaker>DUDEN Bd. 7 - Etymologie, 1997, 2. Aufl., S. 264
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09:44<Noldo>etymology is always a bit odd
09:44<Noldo>why would it be hoe in the middle?
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>just because it's geographically the middle, doesn't mean it's etymologically the middle
09:46<planetmaker>it also depends upon how things are pronounced in the respective language.
09:46<planetmaker>Might even be the same, just different writing
09:47<planetmaker>also it doesn't say it's derived from Scotish, but from Icelandish. Scotish 'hoe' is just also derived from the Icelandic
09:48<ptr>super-high quality
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>now you're just getting silly
09:50<__ln__>hai > silli
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09:51<Noldo>__ln__: oh no
09:53<ptr>lol, herring?
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09:58<Noldo>ptr: yes
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10:00<planetmaker>the question remains: what the heck is a brathering?
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10:04<@Belugas>i know bracketing, but not brathering
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10:08<ccfreak2k>As in "quit brathering me!"
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10:15<@Belugas> :S
10:15<JayDubeu>This sentance has been temporarily set to READ-ONLY.
10:18<@Belugas>Fried Hering...
10:18<@Belugas>so... "Stop Fry my Hering"
10:22<planetmaker>Belugas, yes ;-)
10:23<planetmaker>it's like the word is hard to reconize, if you expect it to be English, though ;-)
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10:25<@Belugas>quite :)
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10:34<Phazorx>enlighten me please, what factors beside mass of train affect acceleration?
10:35<Phazorx>make that weight instead of mass
10:35<Phazorx>so weight = mass * config weight facto
10:36<@Rubidium>HP, TE, incline, the ones I'm forgetting now
10:36<Phazorx>and i do presume external conditions are fine
10:36<Phazorx>so same rails
10:37<Phazorx>i'm puzzled by 2 trains having diferent acceleration patterns here
10:37<Phazorx>wile they have almost same weight
10:37<@Rubidium>weight, power, axle friction, rolling friction, speed, air drag, tractive effort, incline (slope)
10:38<Phazorx>Rubidium: i mean in game :)
10:38<@Rubidium>in game, with the realistic accelaration it's 'limited' to:
10:38<@Rubidium>weight, power, axle friction, rolling friction, speed, air drag, tractive effort, incline (slope)
10:38<@Belugas>number of drinks the driver had before and during the drive
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10:39<Phazorx>weight = same, power = same engines, friction ??, speed same, air drag?? TE same, incline same
10:39<Phazorx>where is air drag and friction coefs are noted in game?
10:40<@Rubidium>they're provided by newgrfs
10:40<Phazorx>i figured that much but where can i see them?
10:40<@Rubidium>probably not
10:42<Phazorx>so there is no way to knowingly recreate a train with different cars in respect to acceleration pattern?
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10:43<@peter1138>axle, rolling and air friction are all constant
10:44<Phazorx>peter1138: per what?
10:44<@peter1138>so weight, power, max te and incline affects it
10:44<@peter1138>well, air drag is constant per train
10:44<@peter1138>axle/rolling is per wagon
10:44<Phazorx>peter1138: per train as in same engine and same cars?
10:45<@peter1138>no, every train
10:45<@peter1138>(we don't implement the newgrf airdrag property)
10:45<Phazorx>i see
10:45<Phazorx>so that can be disregarded then
10:45<Phazorx>and tractions are not displayed?
10:45<Phazorx>neither per car nor for whole train?
10:45<@peter1138>max te is shown
10:46<Phazorx>max te looks like it is massed and power based
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10:50<planetmaker>Phazorx, yes and no. It's separately defined
10:50<Phazorx>planetmaker: err.. so MAX TE in engine is same as TE for train?
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10:52<planetmaker>yes. Only powered vehicles can have a TE
10:53<planetmaker>So I am not sure about powered wagons
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11:42<CIA-9>OpenTTD: yexo * r19105 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp news_type.h): -Fix [FS#3614]: not all news data was properly freed when starting a new game
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12:31<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19106 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Codechange: change 'const static' -> 'static const' for consistency (1 vs 2900 cases); some GCCs/ICCs are known to warn about the former case, but it's valid C++.
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13:01<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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13:41<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19107 /trunk/config.lib: -Change: GCC 3.2 seems to be having trouble with some templates too
13:42<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19108 /trunk/readme.txt: -Document: what compilers are known to succeed compiling OpenTTD and which ones have proven to fail compiling OpenTTD
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13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: translators * r19109 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: catalan - 13 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 2 changes by
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 71 changes by mantaray
13:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19110 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix (r19107): if GCC 3.2 has the trouble, then don't allow it
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---Logclosed Fri Feb 12 15:21:34 2010
---Logopened Fri Feb 12 15:21:39 2010
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16:10*Rubidium finds it ironic that it's hotter in Vancouver than in Northern Florida
16:11<SirSquidness>lol. That is all.
16:12<@Rubidium>5-9 degree C in Vancouver, 1 degree C in Crestview Florida :)
16:13<+michi_cc>A bit less rain wouldn
16:13<+michi_cc>t hurt though
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16:16<SirSquidness>send the rain down here to south eastern australia!
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16:19<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: a friend of mine returned from vancouver to berlin a few weeks ago, and he had a temperature drop of 20°C
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16:44<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19111 /trunk/src/ (53 files in 3 dirs): -Fix (r19070): the station view didn't show acceptance anymore
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17:31<@Belugas>device keeps on resisting
17:31<@Belugas>going to have that problem in my mind for the whole weekend now...
17:31<@Belugas>bye bye
17:32<@Rubidium>kill the device and don't think about it!
17:34<ccfreak2k>Almost have joystick input tuned.
17:34<ccfreak2k>I hope I didn't jinx myself by saying that.
17:35<@peter1138>you gotta get in to get out
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18:00<ccfreak2k>The faster sounds are kind of funny, though.
18:00<ccfreak2k>The honk of ships sounds like "beep beep!"
18:00<ccfreak2k>Trucks sound like motorcycles.
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18:07<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like wrong sample rate
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18:11<ccfreak2k>Yeah it is.
18:11<ccfreak2k>The GameCube sound driver assumes input is 32KHz if it's not 32 or 48.
18:16<+glx>hmm it's 44100 by default
18:17<+glx>but internally sounds are 11025 ;)
18:17<@Rubidium>except opensfx
18:18<ccfreak2k>Once I get input working and verify that everything else works, I'll investigate using Secret Rabbit Code to resample sounds.
18:22<@Rubidium>ccfreak2k: just call MxInitiali[sz]e(32000) at the appropriate place
18:22<ccfreak2k>In OpenTTD?
18:24<@Rubidium>you're using SDL?
18:24<@Rubidium>then it's called somewhere in src/sound/sdl_s.cpp
18:24<+glx>line 40 ;)
18:25<@Rubidium>pass -ssdl:hz=32000 as parameter to ttd_main :)
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18:30<ccfreak2k>Now I need to figure out why I'm not getting button presses registered.
18:39<CIA-9>OpenTTD: smatz * r19112 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix [FS#3611]: don't crash on broken lng file
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18:45<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19113 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Change: [strgen] Remove the partially generated language file if compilation fails.
18:46<ccfreak2k>Sounds are playing correctly now.
18:46<ccfreak2k>Button presses still not working. :(
18:48<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19114 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp:
18:48<CIA-9>OpenTTD: -Change: [strgen] Modify the outputted format for MSVC builds of strgen so it
18:48<CIA-9>OpenTTD: also shows fatal errors in the 'error list' and it also counts them. (Fatal)
18:48<CIA-9>OpenTTD: errors are marked as warnings so a failing language file is not causing the
18:48<CIA-9>OpenTTD: complete compilation to fail.
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18:52<Terkhen>good night
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18:57<rhaeder>will ccache support be added in the near future?
18:57<rhaeder>would help people who recompile often
18:58<@Rubidium>we first need to find a way to make people read the help files :)
18:58<rhaeder>ah, ok :D
18:58<@Rubidium>hmm, or... maybe it should be added to the help files
18:58<rhaeder>the same to me? I did the generic way with export FOO="ccache foo-compiler"
18:58<rhaeder>here is my ticket:
18:59<@Rubidium>./configure --with-ccache
19:00<rhaeder>did you add it some recent ago?
19:00<TrueBrain>no :p
19:00<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19115 /trunk/config.lib: -Document: --with-ccache and --with-distcc in configure
19:01<TrueBrain>@openttd commit 10171
19:01<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by rubidium :: r10171 /trunk (3 files) (2007-06-16 21:57:30 UTC)
19:01<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Add: simple support for ccache (--with-ccache).
19:01<TrueBrain>1.5 years ago :)
19:01<TrueBrain>so I guess it depends on how 'recent' you name 'recent' ;)
19:01<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: more like 2.5+ years ago (2007-06-16)
19:01<TrueBrain>owh, 2010 already?
19:02<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: oh, but it's 2016 in some cases too :)
19:02<rhaeder>ok, I tried the "generic" way. so I need to modify configure to unset it :/
19:04<TrueBrain>it always takes for ever to update my internal clock ...
19:04<TrueBrain>2010 .. 2010 .. 2010 .. 2010 ..
19:05<TrueBrain>night all
19:05<rhaeder>I talk about these changes ;)
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19:08<@Rubidium>anyhow, there was a reason why CC="ccache gcc" didn't work
19:08<@Rubidium>probably in combination with distcc, i.e. CC="ccache distcc gcc" it caused some major mayhem
19:08<rhaeder>./configure did output failing "test" lines
19:09<rhaeder>added a comment :)
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19:20<CIA-9>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19116 /trunk/config.lib: -Fix [FS#3615]: enabling ccache via environment variables failed to properly detect/set a compiler
19:25<ccfreak2k>Ok, I can press the "left mouse button" once/.
19:25<ccfreak2k>After that it doesn't seem to work.
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19:56<ccfreak2k>Fixed input.
19:57<ccfreak2k>Oddly, it doesn't show the world generator progress bar. Yes, threads are enabled.
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20:07<ccfreak2k>Instantly reboots when trying to generate a 1024x1024 map.
20:09<ccfreak2k>Oh, there's the progress bar.
20:10<ccfreak2k>Awesome, it even hard-reboots when exiting as opposed to rebooting to IPL.
20:10<ccfreak2k>1024x512 map generated successfully.
20:12<@SmatZ>does it have virtual memory space? how big?
20:13<ccfreak2k>I'm pretty sure there's no virtual memory space.
20:13<@Rubidium>it has 24 MB of main RAM
20:14<@Rubidium>and the biggest memory card seems to be 8 MB (that's what unreferenced wikipedia says)
20:15<@SmatZ>memory fragmentation can become serious problem then
20:15<ccfreak2k>There's also 16MB of "ARAM", normally used for sound, which is DMA accessable.
20:15<@Rubidium>well, 1024x1024 => 9 MB of map alone
20:16<@Rubidium>add the binary itself, sprite cache, etc. and you're quickly at 24 MB
20:16<ccfreak2k>Sprite cache I pulled back to 2MB.
20:16<ccfreak2k>The binary is about 6.5MB.
20:17<ccfreak2k>Memory cards are also flash memory, and the EXI (memory card) bus isn't particularly fast - you'd want to avoid using it
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20:49<JayDubeu>What ports does OTTD use? x.x
20:50<JayDubeu>Never mind
20:50<JayDubeu>Found it
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21:42<ccfreak2k>Apparently the Gekko CPU does have an MMU.
21:42<ccfreak2k>However, there's no reference made to "MMU" in libogc.
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21:45<ccfreak2k>Oh, it does have virtual memory.
21:45<ccfreak2k>It's just not usually used I guess.
21:46<ccfreak2k>Or actually it is.
21:47<ccfreak2k>Cached and uncached accesses are to virtual memory.
21:47<ccfreak2k>Pointers have to be explicitly translated to go into physical memorty.
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 13 00:00:18 2010