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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-02-15

---Logopened Mon Feb 15 00:00:22 2010
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01:15-!-Ammler is "Marcel Gm\xFCr" on #moocows #openttdcoop.devzone #openttdcoop.bots @+#coopetition
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01:46<Terkhen>good morning
01:47<kd5pbo>Terkhen: Good morning.
01:47<lennard>have a happt netsplit morning :)
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04:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r19136 /trunk/src (industry_cmd.cpp industrytype.h) (2010-02-15 09:49:10 UTC)
04:49<@DorpsGek>-Doc: Added Doxygen comments for industry checking procedures.
04:50<Alberth>ieks, dorpsgek is working for the secret service
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04:55<Alberth>previously, the CIA reported such messages
04:57<planetmaker>under cover operations rulez
04:59<@peter1138>CIA appears to have disappeared
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05:16<kd5pbo>CIA didn't disappear, it just went undercover.
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05:24<Alberth>yeah, just heard it on the radio, very sad, 10 people dead :(
05:26<Ammler>__ln__: aren't you the "English only" guy?
05:26<kd5pbo>What happened?
05:27<Alberth>two passenger trains collided this mrorning in belgium
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05:27<kd5pbo>That's unfortunate.
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05:28<Ammler> <-- 20 here
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05:28<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r19137 /trunk/src (industry_cmd.cpp lang/english.txt) (2010-02-15 10:28:40 UTC)
05:28<@DorpsGek>-Add: Report a more useful error when failing to build a bubble generator.
05:28<Terkhen> <-- 20 here too :/
05:29<__ln__>Ammler: only occasionally.
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06:04<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r19138 trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp (2010-02-15 11:04:27 UTC)
06:04<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Rename CheckMultipleIndustryInTown() to FindTownForIndustry().
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06:29<@Rubidium>Alberth: you should have said "in Halle" instead of "in Belgium", would be much more fun when Eddi|zuHause wakes up!
06:29<kd5pbo>Rubidium: Why?
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>hey.. i'm awake for 3 hours already...
06:30<__ln__>Rubidium: what's the fun part in shocking someone with false news about a fatal accident?
06:31<Alberth>it is not false news, it is more precise
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06:34<Eddi|zuHause>"Address:‎ Buizingen
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>Halle, Belgium"
06:35<@Rubidium>__ln__: "Buizingen is a suburb of the municipality of Halle" /,_Belgium_train_collision
06:36<kd5pbo>Of all the languages that could be used for the article, why Portugese?
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06:42<Alberth>it is a popular language in the world
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06:47<__ln__>yes, among the ten most spoken ones.
06:49<kd5pbo>Yeah, but for a train collision in Belgium?
06:49<kd5pbo>I'd have expected Flemmish or French or German.
06:50<__ln__>not sure where you saw portuguese anyway.
06:52<kd5pbo>List of languages in which one can view the wikipedia page.
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06:54*peter1138 ponders the bug title "Desync in multiplayer"
06:54<@peter1138>as opposed to a desync in... singleplayer... ?
06:54<Noldo>har har
06:54<kd5pbo>As opposed to desync in dekitchen.
06:55<Noldo>well there was the lonely wagon syndrome on 0.3.x ...
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06:55<kd5pbo>Noldo: What was that?
06:55<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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08:32<PeterT>CIA is back :-)
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>how dare he
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09:10<PeterT>IPG: It's 12 AM for him :-)
09:11<IPG>here is 3PM
09:12<PeterT>Here it is 9:12 AM
09:16<@peter1138>well to the internet. it's international. you may have heard of it.
09:19<SirSquidness>PeterT: actually, for roboboy, it's 1:18AM. Victoria and New South Wales are inday light savings at the moment.
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09:28<Eddi|zuHause>it's international day of the netsplit
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09:28*SirSquidness sends Eddi|zuHause some flowers to mark the occasion
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09:55<PeterT>Hi Belugas
09:56<@Belugas>mister T, hello
09:56<@Rubidium>oh, that black guy?
09:56<@peter1138>b.a. baracus
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>he who does a lot of pitying
09:57<@Rubidium>trying to sell crap on TV...
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>don't all fallen stars do that?
09:58<@Rubidium>I hope not
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>any ideas what the other guys who played in the A Team do nowadays?
10:02<@Belugas>yeah that black guy
10:02<@Belugas>who looks funny now, considering his age... roughly 60
10:02<@Rubidium>IIRC one is "playing" in "pushing daisies"
10:04<@peter1138>george peppard
10:04<@peter1138>died with lung cancer
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>yay, "program me this for free!"
10:06<@Rubidium>peter1138: in how many days will that be on the daily wtf?
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10:10<@Belugas>funny... on that add, there is a link selling "UK trips from Canada"...
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10:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19137 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp lang/english.txt): -Add: Report a more useful error when failing to build a bubble generator.
10:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19138 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Rename CheckMultipleIndustryInTown() to FindTownForIndustry().
10:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19136 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp industrytype.h): -Doc: Added Doxygen comments for industry checking procedures.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r19135 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 2 changes by
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by mantaray
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 127 changes by mantaray
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19133 /trunk/src/core/random_func.hpp: -Fix [FS#3621]: [Mac OS X] --enable-desync-debug failed compiling (planetmaker)
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19132 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: No need to end a line with ;;.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r19134 /trunk/src/misc/ (blob.hpp dbg_helpers.cpp str.hpp): -Fix (r16983, r17219): YAPF debug output was quite broken.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19130 /trunk/src/ (command.cpp command_type.h): -Codechange: Use references and inlining in CommandCost.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19128 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: CommandCost cost methods return void instead of a copy of *this.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r19127 /trunk/src/misc/ (dbg_helpers.h str.hpp): -Codechange: Add printf-like warnings to more functions.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19129 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3623] (r19122): Don't draw cargo ratings/acceptance when the window is shaded.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19131 /trunk/src/economy_type.h: -Doc: Add doxygen comments to some economy variables and constants.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19122 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Move cargo drawing to StationViewWindow::OnPaint().
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19123 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3617]: Resize station cargo widget when needed to display all accepted cargo types.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19121 /trunk/src/station_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Introduce a variable for the height of the ratings and accepted cargo widgets.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19119 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt town_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#3616]: removing towns (in the scenario editor) that had stations/depots refer to them or vehicles were on the town's road could cause a crash
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19118 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#3593]: Some buttons in the order gui were raised too soon.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r19126 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Silence a warning.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r19125 /trunk/src/core/random_func.cpp: -Fix (r18809): Compiling with desync-debug failed.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r19124 /trunk/src/lang/ (14 files): (log message trimmed)
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 3 changes by josesun
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 35 changes by agenthh
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: esperanto - 27 changes by Ailanto
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
10:56<SirSquidness>holy crpa CIA-1 just woke up...
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r19120 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp:
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: [NewGRF] Industry property 0x17 was interpreted incorrectly and in some cases circumvented the density difficulty setting.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change: Do not scale the number of industry creations during map creation with the number of available industry types.
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Feature: [NewGRF] Implement special industry flag 0x10000.
10:57*Rubidium awaits the CIA-1 kicked [flooding]
10:57*SirSquidness crosses his fingers
10:58<PeterT>It _has_ to update?
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10:59<TrueBrain>downside of using email as delivery system ...
11:00<@Rubidium>why? Isn't it an upside that notifications don't go lost when their system was down?
11:00<TrueBrain>but the flood is not really wanted
11:00<TrueBrain>@reload XMLRPC
11:00<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
11:00<TrueBrain>@reload XMLRPC
11:00<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
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11:01<@Rubidium>the out-of-order notifications are funny though
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11:16<svip>o_o I've been away too long from this channel.
11:16<svip>I totally forgot to train about.
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11:47<sparr>I am trying to figure out why my math for cargo delivery payments doesn't match up in-game
11:47<sparr>can anyone help walk me through the logic?
11:47<Alberth>there is a wiki page about it
11:48<Alberth>I have not read that part of the code, so I cannot help you.
11:49<sparr>I am trying to use the logic on the wiki
11:49<sparr>either I am doing it wrong, or the wiki is wrong.
11:49-!-PeterT [] has quit [Quit: Back in 3 hours or so]
11:50<@Rubidium>ah, it's slightly wrong: read "days" as "2.5 days", i.e. read "4 days" as "10 days"
11:51<@Rubidium>i.e. better read
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11:53<sparr>yeah, i've read that
11:54<sparr>my current sample case...
11:54<sparr>35 pax at 88km/h delivered about 90 tiles
11:55<sparr>i have confirmed experimentally that 88km covers 90 tiles in about 29 days, which i got algorithmically as well
11:55<sparr>so, 35 pax, 90 tiles, 29 days
11:55<sparr>the simple version says the payment for that should be 35*39*(1-.004*(29+5)/2.5)
11:55<sparr>which seems to be right to within a couple of percent
11:56<sparr>which is easily covered by the simplification of 1/256 to .004
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11:56<sparr>but now I'm trying to do the accurate version from [[Cargo_income]]
11:56<sparr>and getting lost somewhere
11:57<@Rubidium>29 days in game => 29/2.5 days in the formulas
11:57<sparr>yes, there's a /2.5 there :)
11:58<@Rubidium>@calc 29/2.5
11:58<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 11.6
11:59<sparr>the actual payment im getting is around $2500, 1250 GBP. 35*39*(1-.004*(29+5)/2.5) is 1290. I am happy that that answer falls within the potential measurement error
12:00<@Rubidium>@calc 3185 * 35 * 90 * (255 - 11) / 2**21
12:00<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 1167.29307175
12:01<sparr>that seems significantly lower than 1290, more so than the slight inaccuracies in converting the formula would allow
12:01<@Rubidium>depending on the exact settings of the game
12:01<sparr>i mean theoretically
12:02<sparr>the two formula should yield the same number, to within a couple of percent (1% for the conversion from 3185 to 39, 1% for the conversion from 1/256 to .004)
12:02<sparr>the agreed upon answer could then be altered by game settings (which settings, btw?)
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12:03<@Rubidium>newgrfs that modify costs, inflation that already happened etc.
12:03<sparr>ok, got it
12:03<sparr>but back to the formulae not matching
12:05<@Rubidium>distance is the manhattan distance, right?
12:06<@Rubidium>@calc 3185 * 35 * 90 * (255 - 10) / 2**21
12:06<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 1172.07705975
12:06<@Rubidium>hmm, nope... doesn't get it closer faster
12:07<@Rubidium>you're sure there's no inflation?
12:07<sparr>forget inflation :-p
12:07<sparr>it would affect both equally
12:07<sparr>these two formulae are supposed to be restatements of the same internal logic, that yields the base delivery price, before other modifiers take effect
12:07<@Rubidium>yes, but if 1290 is *with* some inflation, then you can use the formulae and never get to that answer
12:08<sparr>1290 is the other base formula
12:08<sparr>1250 is the observed price in game, which i am ignoring for now
12:08<sparr>comparing the two formulae, the *35 and *90 factors are efectively the same in both formulae. one calls for percentage in increments of .004, the other for integer N/255ths, that's a 2% difference.
12:09<@Rubidium>@calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - 0.044)
12:09<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 1174.446
12:10<sparr>@calc 1174/1290
12:10<@DorpsGek>sparr: 0.91007751938
12:10<@Rubidium>@calc 1174.446/1172.07705975
12:10<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 1.00202114719
12:10<sparr>@calc 38.87/39 * ((1/255)/.004)
12:10<@DorpsGek>sparr: 0.977124183007
12:10<@Rubidium>pretty damn close :)
12:11<sparr>so 2.3% loss between the two loss factors
12:11<sparr>i can live with a 2.3% error
12:11<sparr>but 1174 vs 1290 is a lot more than 2.3%
12:12<@Rubidium>yes, that's where I expect something like inflation to happen
12:12<sparr>why do you keep bringing up inflation?
12:12<sparr>we are talking about pre-inflation logic
12:12<sparr>these two formulae are supposed to be the same, to within conversion error
12:12<@Rubidium>where does the 1290 come from then?
12:12<sparr>the "simple" formula on the other page
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12:12<@Rubidium>no, that gives:
12:12<@Rubidium>@calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - 0.044)
12:12<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 1174.446
12:13<sparr>sorry, i screwed up the math on my end on that one
12:13<@Rubidium>@calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - (floor(29/2.5) * 0.004)
12:13<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
12:14<@Rubidium>@calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - ((29/2.5) * 0.004)
12:14<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
12:14<@Rubidium>@calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - ((29/2.5) * 0.004))
12:14<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 1171.4976
12:14<@Rubidium>@calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - (floor(29/2.5) * 0.004))
12:14<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 1174.446
12:14<sparr>34, not 29 :)
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12:14<@Rubidium>oh, I've been using 29 everywhere :)
12:14<sparr>pax have an early delivery time of 0 days and a late delivery time of 24 days, so 29 days is a 29+5 day penalty
12:15<@Rubidium>@calc 39 * .35 * 90 * (1 - (floor(34/2.5) * 0.004))
12:15<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 1164.618
12:15<@Rubidium>@calc 3185 * 35 * 90 * (255 - floor(34/2.5)) / 2**21
12:15<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 1157.72509575
12:15<@Rubidium>did I say that "days" in the wiki means "2.5 days in game"?
12:16<sparr>the /2.5 i got :)
12:16<sparr>ok, it looks like the two agree for you
12:16<sparr>now i have to figure out why they dont for me
12:17<sparr>are the early/late delivery times also in 2.5 day increments?
12:18<sparr>so "24 days" for late pax is really 60 days?
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12:20<sparr>ok, thanks for the help
12:20<sparr>i think my delivery price spreadsheet is getting a lot closer to accurate now :)
12:22<planetmaker>sparr, you know that you have those graphcs also ingame available?
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12:23<sparr>planetmaker: not the ones I want.
12:23<sparr>if i could get that patch to compile today...
12:24<sparr>finding the peak in that first graph is non-trivial
12:24<sparr>mentally, that is
12:24<sparr>doing it with a spreadsheet is easy, once the spreadsheet is accurate
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12:37<sparr>planetmaker: does that make sense?
12:37<sparr>my spreadsheet also takes running cost into account, which is a major factor
12:37<dihedral>wtf? spreadsheet??
12:38<SpComb^>I guess some people really care how much money their trains make
12:38*SpComb^ doesn't
12:38<sparr>SpComb^: i care that they make any money at all
12:38<sparr>on a server with high running costs and early era it's quite possible to make a train route that loses money
12:38<dihedral>no kidding
12:39<dihedral>but for that you don't need a spreadsheet now, do you
12:39<sparr>you do if you want to know before you lose a year and a few thousand dollars testing it
12:40<sparr>for example... at 88km/h, a train carrying 175 pax has peak profit around 290 tiles (of non-diagonal track). it actually turns a net loss past 580 tiles.
12:40<sparr>that's with $24k/yr running cost
12:40<sparr>which is a real example
12:40<dihedral>and, erm, you pay back the loan before you have your first interest debited to your account during the time you fill in your spreadsheet?
12:40<sparr>spreadsheet takes a few seconds to fill out... what does the loan have to do with it?
12:41<dihedral>you lose money in that time :-P
12:41-!-phalax [~phalax@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:41<dihedral>so - if you have the pax figured out - why not pre-calc what you can before you start the game... ends up in a list
12:41<dihedral>uh oh - and you forgot the loading times i think
12:42<dihedral>oh oh - and you forgot the quality of your pax
12:42<dihedral>uh - and i take it you play without breakdowns?
12:42<sparr>yes, loading times and acceleration/decelleration are difficult. i just have an overall "route efficiency" adjustment factor
12:42<dihedral>kids these days - pffft
12:42<sparr>about half the servers i play on have breakdowns
12:43<@Rubidium>for the fun of it, with inflation the costs raise faster than the income :)
12:43<dihedral>Rubidium, that is so not fair :-P
12:43<sparr>someone turned on inflation in #openttdcoop one game
12:43<sparr>ruined us a few hundred years in
12:43<sparr>that was when i learned that running costs can go up for older trains
12:44<sparr>the spreadsheet is also useful for figuring out whether it's worthwhile to use one of the both-ends engines (not sure of the term) for higher speed at the expense of lower capacity
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12:46<dihedral>i mean - sure, if you have a graph in the game and you think you need that and you like it - go patch
12:46<dihedral>but a spreadsheet?
12:46<dihedral>what are you? a PC?
12:48<dihedral>uh - another question: did you take bridges, slopes, etc into account?
12:49<dihedral>how often do you place signals?
12:50<dihedral>how many runs do you expect a train to make in one year?
12:50<dihedral>how's that for cargo - with an empty return journey?
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12:51<dihedral>uh - and how long are your trains?
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12:52<sparr>bridges and slopes are minor factors. on a well designed network the train runs at full speed most of the time. on a poorly designed network, the poor design is the problem :-p
12:52<sparr>my trains are [usually] the appropriate length for my curves
12:53<sparr>signal placement also part of the network design
12:53<dihedral>so tell me about the cost difference between a 5 tile long train and a 10 tile long train over your mentioned 290 tiles distance?
12:54<dihedral>assuming you have the same length station, and 'good' pax waiting at the station to fill your train immediately
12:56<sparr>assuming 40 pax per car, 2 cars per tile, 1 engine, 24000GBP running cost, 10% overall wasted efficiency due to all the small factors... 5 tile train earns you 93GBP per pax, 10 tile train earns 101GBP per pax
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12:56<sparr>some of the smaller factors like acceleration time probably matter a lot more for really long trains
12:57<sparr>i am mostly considering 3-6 tile trains
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12:57<sparr>at that size it matters a lot more how long the train is
12:58<dihedral>so in theory the 10 tile long train would be way better than the 5 tile long train
12:58<sparr>I would say they are close enough that the "small factors" probably make enough of a difference to be important
12:58<sparr>10% difference is well within the range of all of those factors combined
12:59<sparr>also, backing up a moment, tell me about "good" pax
13:01<dihedral>so the 5tl train would bring you on a full load 33480 and the 10 tl train would bring 76760
13:01<dihedral>which is more than double
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13:01<dihedral>not including the fact, that the train needs more power to gain full speed
13:01<dihedral>thus traveling longer
13:01<sparr>because a 10tl train has more than double the cars and pax of a 5tl train
13:03<dihedral>'good' pax - just to assume your pax has the same rating at the station - badly rated 'cargo' pays worse ;-)
13:04<sparr>interesting... citation?
13:04<sparr>i'm not so good at looking through the openttd source yet
13:04<sparr>and i havent seen that info on the wiki anywhere
13:04<dihedral>now try to take something like your HQ or a statue into account
13:04<sparr>statue i am familiar with. what effect does the HQ have?
13:05<sparr>i have asked about HQ before and no one would tell me
13:05<sparr>games with undocumented rules bother me :(
13:05<dihedral>it aint undocumented
13:05<sparr>err, i already have that page open
13:06<sparr>the words "hq" or "headquarters" do not appear on it
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13:10<sparr>I'm trying to improve the wiki where I can, but someone has to share the knowledge first
13:12<ccfreak2k>During any save, which function is called first?
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13:19<DJNekkid>can i use CC on some rail sprites? (for "new rails")
13:20<DJNekkid>(isit supported?)
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13:22<sparr>why does the wiki say that the vehicle speed bonus to station rating caps at 17%?
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13:23<sparr>i think that assumes a max vehicle speed of 255km/h
13:24<Alberth>iirc things on maglev run faster
13:24<frosch123>ttd had a maximum speed of 255. however the unit is not km/h
13:24-!-Macha [] has joined #openttd
13:25<Macha>Can I kick an AI? I accidentally forgot to disable them for a MP game I'm playing.
13:25<frosch123>hmm, no, you are right, trains can be faster
13:25<frosch123>Macha: "stop_ai <company number>" in console
13:25<Macha>frosch123: Thanks
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13:26<sparr>ge->days_since_pickup is in 2.5-day units?
13:26<sparr>continuing wtf @ days vs days
13:26<Alberth>doxygen improvements are welcome
13:27<frosch123>that describes quite detailed what is done
13:27<sparr>:) @ more documentation
13:27<sparr>:( @ another location that has to be updated
13:30<sparr>"If the max. speed is above 255 speed units, 255 is used instead." <-- this is not apparent in the code, unless ge->last_speed is truncated before the rating code is called
13:30<sparr>also, :( @ comparing possibly-different ttdpatch vs openttd rules
13:30<frosch123> byte last_speed; <- interesting definition of truncation
13:32<frosch123>sparr: they are not different. and if they are different you should create a big huge red bug report about it. (except ttdp screwed it up)
13:32<sparr>int b = ge->last_speed - 85; <-- waste of 3 bytes of memory :-p
13:32<sparr>well, 2 bytes, since you need a signed short to hold an unsigned char minus a constant
13:33<sparr>so, thanks to finding the appropriate source, and the new documentation...
13:33<SpComb^>an int will probably be faster than a short, and the short will probably be optimized to an int anyways...
13:33<sparr>I am still lacking the statue/hq equivalence
13:34<sparr>maybe HasBit(st->town->statues, st->owner) counts a hq as a statue?
13:37<SpComb^>check SetBit(...)
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13:44<sparr>only set in two places i can find
13:44<sparr>neither seem to apply to HQs
13:44<sparr>dihedral: see above
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r19139 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 12 changes by Hadez
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by habell
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
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13:47<Alberth>sparr: c->location_of_HQ == INVALID_TILE <-- apparently there is a tile in the Company
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14:01<sparr>Alberth: what?
14:01<sparr>Alberth: we are discussing whether it affects station rating
14:02<Alberth>I thought you were looking for the statue storage
14:04<sparr>in the station rating code the only place i can see that hq might have an effect is when it checks for a statue
14:04<sparr>if having a hq sets the statue bit
14:04<sparr>but i cant find anywhere that having a hq would set the statue bit for the town
14:05<TrueBrain>it doesnt
14:05<TrueBrain>neither does it affect station rating (or at least, not as far as I know)
14:05<sparr>that is the conclusion i am coming to, but i give dihedral the chance to support his claim
14:05<sparr>worse than undocumented features are wrongly-rumored features :)
14:05<Alberth>sparr: <-- nothing in a station file
14:05<devilsadvocate>TrueBrain, i believe it does. certain forum postings suggested that it does (something to do with ECS)
14:05<sparr>a lot of players think pax/goods delivery affects city growth
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14:06<TrueBrain>devilsadvocate: I don't do GRF, so I wouldn't know
14:06<sparr>Alberth: yes, but location_of_HQ could be used somewhere to set the town->whatever->statues bit, that's what i was searching for
14:06<devilsadvocate>no, i mean one of the suggestions was to build statues and HQ to increase rating so that industries dont close
14:06<sparr>devilsadvocate: that could be the same misinformation that dihedral is suffering from
14:06<TrueBrain>never knew HQ had any affect on the game
14:07<sparr>TrueBrain: afaik you are right
14:07<@Rubidium>HQ has no direct effect, although indirectly it provides pax (and mail?) and thus might lower the ratings due to increased numbers of waiting passengers
14:07<Alberth>sparr: there is also not a town file in that list
14:07<TrueBrain>lol @ Rubidium
14:07<sparr>Alberth: i don't know enough about all the files to say that for certain, which is why i come back here each time i have more information
14:07<TrueBrain>the wiki url on our wiki says it all
14:08<TrueBrain>(the one dihedral gave ;))
14:08<frosch123>planetmaker: Ammler: did you encounter the desync again with patched clients/servers? or did you stop playing?
14:13<sparr>TrueBrain: the one dihedral gave contradicts what dihedral said. hence the investigation.
14:14<TrueBrain>I guess he made a small typo; happens to all of us
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14:18<planetmaker>frosch123, When I tested it, I didn't encounter a desync.
14:18<frosch123>how long did you test?
14:18<planetmaker>But... I unpatched the server again in the assumption that the patch would assure 100% desync chance
14:19<planetmaker>maybe 15 minutes?
14:19<planetmaker>round about
14:19<frosch123>15 sounds like long enough
14:21<Bluelight>Installing new router.. brb
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14:36<@DorpsGek>Bluelight: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
14:38<planetmaker>frosch123, 15 minutes is an indicator. But sometimes it also works without the patch for that long...
14:38<ccfreak2k>During any save, which function is called first?
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14:47<Manio>any developer here? Got a question. I wanted to add myself method to AILog (AILog::ToFile(const char *message)), compiled then and run, but in game this method is not visible...
14:47<Manio>do I have to register this new method somewhere or what? :D
14:48-!-Bluelight_ [] has joined #openttd
14:49<Manio>is this the right chat for that? :P
14:49-!-lugo [] has joined #openttd
14:50<planetmaker>this is the right channel, no worries
14:50<@Rubidium>in src/ai/api run the 'export' script
14:51<Manio>hm ok, let me try that :)
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14:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r19140 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Move variables closer to their first use.
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14:54<Manio>Hmm... any way to do this 'export' on windows?
14:54<@Rubidium>with mingw, or manually mess with the .sq files
14:59-!-welshdragon [~markmac@] has quit [Quit: welshdragon]
14:59<Manio>I'll go with 'manually'. Will see how it ends
15:10-!-Bluelight [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:14<Manio>Yeah :D It worked :)Thanks for help :) Do you have some knowledge base for people who want to mess around the source codes? like how do they know that there is some kind of export script, and you need to run it, and stuff? Or you have to find out that kind of stuff on your own?
15:14<@Rubidium>there's an (outdated) dev handbook on the wiki, otherwise this channel's useful
15:15<planetmaker>Manio, there's the wiki... you could update it with this piece of advice.
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15:15<Manio>Yeah I know wiki :) But still, it doesn't have all info
15:16<planetmaker>Yes, of course. Add it. It always needs *someone* to do it ;-)
15:16<planetmaker>It's a wiki after all.
15:17<Manio>Plus, it's huge project after all. Men, it compiles a long time
15:18<Sacro>it compile you long time
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15:19<Manio>You mean it wasn't correct english or? English is not my primary language, sorry
15:20<planetmaker>Manio, IIRC your English was correct...
15:20<planetmaker>Don't let funny English-men tell you otherwise :-P
15:21<@Rubidium>huge? long compiles?
15:21<Manio>Maybe he meant some kind of irony... how can I know
15:21<Dessous>Has anyone here had problems with music in OpenTTD in Linux? The game loads the music and I can select the pak, but when I try to play it, it just cycles the playlist around over and over again as if it, for some reason, couldn't play the files
15:22<@Rubidium>Dessous: probably because you haven't installed extmidi
15:23<Dessous>dbg: [driver] Successfully probed music driver 'extmidi'
15:24<@SmatZ>Dessous: and timidity?
15:24<@Rubidium>Dessous: doesn't mean that extmidi is installed, just means that there was no other driver (it's basically the fallback)
15:25<@Rubidium>Manio: Debian compilation takes less than 15 minutes on one particular machine, compiling gcc (the compiler) takes over 9 hours
15:26<@Rubidium>planetmaker: does a client with desync against a server with YAPF caching disabled?
15:28<@peter1138>Compiling Debian?
15:28<andythenorth>hi hi
15:28*andythenorth has been busy
15:28<@peter1138>Sadly, compiling OpenTTD now takes me 11 seconds :(
15:28<planetmaker>11 seconds?! I envy you
15:28<@Rubidium>peter1138: yes :)
15:28<planetmaker>hello andythenorth :-)
15:28<andythenorth>11 seconds? have you switched to OS X?
15:29<@Rubidium>a little over 1 minute for a full recompile
15:29<@Rubidium>without ccache or other tricks
15:29<@peter1138>Oh... yeah, ccache is in use, hehe.
15:29<planetmaker>Wow... how?
15:29*peter1138 configures without
15:29<planetmaker>Fast quad core? More?
15:30<@peter1138>43 seconds?
15:30<planetmaker>Rubidium, I'll have to test. Give me a bit
15:30<@peter1138>that's crap :(
15:30<@Rubidium>planetmaker: nah, your "standard" 1 year old laptop
15:30<@peter1138>it used to be quicker
15:30<@peter1138>3GHz quad core. Nothing special these days...
15:30<Manio>huh nice, I use vmware + winxp with visual studio 2008 for now, and full rebuild of solution takes about 5 minutes x.x
15:30<dihedral>peter1138, and make -j what?
15:31<planetmaker>hm... yes, I need 5 minutes with -j4 on my dual core
15:31<planetmaker>I can cut off a bit by using the less optimizing LLVM
15:31<dihedral>i just needed 2 mins and 20 secs pm
15:31<@Rubidium>66 seconds without ccache, -j3; < 10 seconds with ccache, -j3
15:31<dihedral>and that was -j 3
15:31<TrueBrain>Rubidium: lol, times with ccache are a bit silly :p
15:31<@peter1138>28 seconds with a debug build
15:32<@peter1138>not so long ago it was half that
15:32<planetmaker>hm... what do I do wrong? ;-)
15:32<@Rubidium>Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T9400 @ 2.53GHz
15:32<TrueBrain>planetmaker: gcc-llvm ;)
15:32<@Rubidium>planetmaker: use Apple's compiler?
15:32<@peter1138>Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz
15:32<planetmaker>I've 2GHz only, but that should make 50% difference max
15:32<@peter1138>except it's at 3GHz
15:32<dihedral>Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8400 @ 3.00GHz
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15:33<planetmaker>TrueBrain, usually not gcc-llvm, but gcc-4.2.1
15:33<TrueBrain>Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU T5750 @ 2.00GHz
15:33*andythenorth intel core 2 Duo 2.53
15:33<TrueBrain>slowest here :p
15:33<ccfreak2k>Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N270 @ 1.60GHz
15:33<@SmatZ>x86_64 AMD Phenom(tm) 9950 Quad-Core Processor AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
15:34<ccfreak2k>I haven't gotten on the dual core train yet.
15:34<@Rubidium>BCM3302 V0.8 <- doesn't compile OpenTTD though
15:34<Manio>jeeez... what have I started with my little "compiles a long time" :P
15:34<TrueBrain>dep-check alone takes 20 seconds here :p
15:34<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: 0.7? or trunk?
15:34<TrueBrain>cold cache
15:35<@Rubidium>ah, yes :)
15:35<Manio>btw, any... easy... way to apply patch from revision ~12000 to current rev? :P quite a big patch
15:36<TrueBrain>nope, no easy way
15:36<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: lies... use the 0.6 branch :)
15:36<TrueBrain>current rev gets a new meaning :p
15:36<@Rubidium>but other than that: nope, no easy way
15:36<Manio>:D well, I meant trunk recent rev :P
15:37<TrueBrain>226 seconds :s
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15:39<andythenorth>are we doing anything fun?
15:40<TrueBrain>no, but we are now
15:40<TrueBrain>annoy andythenorth
15:40<TrueBrain>lets see ....
15:40<TrueBrain>@kick andythenorth okay
15:40-!-andythenorth was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [okay]
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15:40<TrueBrain>@kick andythenorth okay
15:40-!-andythenorth was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [okay]
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15:40<TrueBrain>damn, this is too easy :p
15:40<@peter1138>i reckon i need some fast ssd
15:40*TrueBrain hugs andythenorth
15:40<@peter1138>also the newgrf scan takes too long :s
15:40<@Belugas>Soup Served Daly
15:41<@peter1138>at least, when files are not in disk cache
15:41<andythenorth>TrueBrain: really, your efforts have the significance of a flea on a mountain compared to the rest of my life these days :o
15:41<TrueBrain>awwwhhhhhhh ... poor andythenorth
15:41<TrueBrain>I wont annoy you anymore :)
15:41<TrueBrain>@voice andythenorth
15:41-!-mode/#openttd [+v andythenorth] by DorpsGek
15:42<TrueBrain>that should make your life a tiny bit better ;)
15:42<+andythenorth>what goes with salmon? pasta, potato or chips?
15:42<dihedral>way to go TB :-P
15:43<Markk>There you go, pretty fast SSD. :)
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15:43<@peter1138>pasta, or new potatoes, or, if deep fried and battered, with chips
15:43<+andythenorth>pasta then
15:43<@peter1138>Markk, let me get a mortgage...
15:43<dihedral>Markk, what? the BBU aint installed??
15:43<Markk>peter1138: :D
15:44<@Rubidium>andythenorth: only if they're gnocchi!
15:44<dihedral>i love the fact that it says 'only' next to the 15.5k EUR
15:44<dihedral>oh - and note: shipping kosts: free(1) :-D
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15:44<Markk>dihedral: :D
15:45<dihedral>(*) Prices are plus VAT and plus shipping
15:45<dihedral>and are valid for shipments within Germany only
15:45<Markk>That is just hardcore.
15:45<dihedral>no wonder shipping is 'free'
15:45<Markk>dihedral: I can by it from Sweden (They ship here).
15:45<dihedral>you can by it? :-P
15:46<@Belugas>pasta? Potatoes? With Salmon????? NEVER!!! Rice, with Garlic!
15:46<dihedral>or garlic with rice?
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15:51<@Belugas>grrr... great... now i'm hungry
15:51<@Belugas>ho... a little more than an hour to go :D
15:51<dihedral>pizza, burgers, candy, cake, ...
15:51<@Rubidium>"Chausson aux pommes"? Just come and get it :)
15:52<dihedral>chinese take away
15:52<dihedral>hehe - all you can eat :-P
15:52*peter1138 plays with sooperlooper
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15:59*andythenorth wonders if Yexo's industry patch should also check for objects (transmitter etc)?
16:02*andythenorth wanders away to eat and think about more exciting industry patches
16:02<@peter1138>oh. stereo works better when you're outputing both channels
16:02<@peter1138>not left to both
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16:14*andythenorth awards himself a beer (cold)
16:15<Xaroth>andythenorth: pasta
16:15<Terkhen>good night
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16:15<+andythenorth>pasta wins
16:16<Xaroth>potatoes might work if you have a large chunk of salmon
16:16<Xaroth>but then small potatoes, baked
16:16*frosch123 goes for coffee
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16:38*andythenorth thinks it would be exciting to extend industry var 68
16:40<+andythenorth>for fun with....electricity! zzzzzzzaappppp
16:43<+andythenorth>peter1138: you dangled Road Types the other day....any news :o
16:44<Dessous>!! It's working!
16:44<sparr>trying to wrap my head around newgrf callbacks...
16:44<planetmaker>dessous work best when they nearly not work :-P
16:45<sparr>how does a newgrf do things like adjust the cargo payment formula?
16:45<sparr>that is, callback 145
16:45<frosch123>sparr: do you know about "decision trees"?
16:46<frosch123>fine, the root of your tree is called "action3", the branches are "varaction2" and the leafs are "callback results"
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16:49<frosch123>more questions? :p
16:49<sparr>err, many?
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16:50<sparr>is there a good place to begin reading on this?
16:50<frosch123>the tutorials are all about vehicles and stuff, so quite far from callback 145
16:51<frosch123>anyway, you only need action8, varaction2 and action3 for your needs
16:51<sparr>I'm not so much trying to actually write one as to just understand how they work
16:52<frosch123>well, you start from the root (action3), and can then branch depending on various variables
16:52<frosch123>one of them is the "callback id", i.e. what is actually queried
16:54<frosch123>in the branches you can also use some computations in a single-accumulator-processor style before further branching. however, it is still a tree, so not turing complete
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16:55<+andythenorth>sparr: try pikka wiki...let me look it up for you :)
16:55<sparr>that last bit is what I'm interested in
16:55<sparr>the types of calculations that can be done
16:55<+andythenorth>not very detailed, but the easiest starting point
16:56<planetmaker>+-*/ mod << >> xor
16:56<planetmaker>and or
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16:56<frosch123>sparr: you have a single accumulator, the usual integer arithmetics for 8, 16 and 32 bit, signed and unsigned. lots of register for temporary storage and for industries also some memory for longer storage duration
16:57<sparr>interesting, thanks
16:58<sparr>part of my curiosity was sparked by someone suggesting making goal server functionality into a new type of newgrf
16:58<frosch123>wrt. accessing entities on the map, most is "private" :p
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16:59<frosch123>sparr: i guess the biggest restriction is that you have no global variables for bigger scale control flow
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17:28<planetmaker>Rubidium, did you update ouch.diff?
17:30<@Rubidium>yes, it's a very useful name
17:30<planetmaker>has a high recycling value :-P
17:31<@Rubidium>there aren't that many 'ouch' bugs :)
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17:40<__ln__>Was ist das richtige Verb für "Studieren" in der Schule?
17:40<planetmaker>lernen? gammeln?
17:40<planetmaker>abhängen? harzen?
17:41<__ln__>Ok, danke.
17:41<__ln__>Und studieren nicht?
17:41<planetmaker>uhm... The serious answer is only the first. 'lernen'
17:42<planetmaker>well. It's not wrong. But 'studieren' means to study something specifically or very intensively.
17:42<planetmaker>And to study *something* at university
17:43<planetmaker>in that case it neither needs to be intensively or specific :-P
17:44<planetmaker>(the other words I gave are slang for 'doing nothing' ;-) )
17:45<__ln__>Very valid words then
17:47<planetmaker> <-- Rubidium if you like to join / test yourself. I'll do so in ~15 ... 20 minutes
17:48<@Rubidium>got flaky internet at the moment :(
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17:57<@Rubidium>oh behave thyself
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18:09<planetmaker>Rubidium: I desynced :-(
18:10<planetmaker>hm... wait... I still had my #ifdef __APPLE__ uncommented in that trunk checkout...
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: "studieren" is only used for _serious_ studies, at a university.
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18:12<Eddi|zuHause>likewise, you also don't find "Studenten" at a school, but only "Schüler"
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18:19<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: gotta keep in mind and ignore influence from other languages.
18:20<@Rubidium>planetmaker: the server is running with YAPF caching disabled and your client's using my patch, right?
18:20<planetmaker>Both have your patch
18:21<planetmaker>I currently update to latest svn and try there
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18:23<planetmaker>(previously I tested with r19068)
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18:37<planetmaker>Rubidium: works fine so far
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18:43<planetmaker>and still
18:45<@Rubidium>that's good news, and when you join with a second client? Does that stay too (just to catch any long term cache issues)
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18:45<@Rubidium>as I assume that the client you're testing with now joined quite at the beginning
18:50<planetmaker>I re-joined 4 times now with two different instances
18:50<planetmaker>and the server ran a bit before I joined
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18:51<@Rubidium>lovely, it's only a tad slower :(
18:51<@Rubidium>with multitile waypoints
18:52<planetmaker>[00:27] <ProZone> *** planetmaker has unpaused the server. [00:35] <ProZone> *** planetm4ker joined the game [00:36] <ProZone> *** planetm4ker #1 joined the game [00:39] <ProZone> *** planetm4ker joined the game
18:53<planetmaker>3 times joined so far then actually
18:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19141 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#3619] (r18421): look-ahead for multitile waypoints 'made up' data that shouldn't go into the cache, causing desyncs in MP
18:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19142 /branches/1.0/: [1.0] -Branch: the 1.0 series
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19:02<planetmaker>Rubidium: any idea how the cache causes the desync?
19:02<planetmaker>I understand _what_ the commit says, but I don't understand why it fails
19:03<@Rubidium>not really :(
19:05<planetmaker>let's hope that I didn't just have luck right now
19:06<planetmaker>after all people still play on our unpatched server
19:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19143 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: trunk's going for 1.1 now.
19:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19144 /branches/1.0/src/train_cmd.cpp: [1.0] -Fix [FS#3569]: under certain circumstances one could crash a competitor's train
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19:17<Eddi|zuHause>why fix that only for 1.0 and not for 1.1?
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19:19<planetmaker>you want something to do also in the future ;-)
19:23<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: 1.1 will have better solution
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19:55<SpComb^>the FS# links are broken in trac
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21:02<ezracooper>Is it possible to use road vehicles with ECS cargo? If so, what NewGRF do I need?
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---Logclosed Tue Feb 16 00:00:23 2010