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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-02-24

---Logopened Wed Feb 24 00:00:31 2010
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02:20<kd5pbo>Will OpenTTD look for the graphics files if I run it as a dedicated server?
02:22<kd5pbo>Seems so. Rats.
02:25<kd5pbo>What's in, anyways?
02:37<planetmaker>and the "graphics" files are e.g. also used for map generation.
02:37<kd5pbo>planetmaker: Oh. Thanks.
02:39<planetmaker>height maps are after all also graphics ;-)
02:40<kd5pbo>I was unaware.
02:40<kd5pbo>Wait, why would a dedicated server need sounds?
02:40<kd5pbo>I thought that was client-side.
02:41<planetmaker>it doesn't really need them. You could use the NoSounds baseset
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02:41<kd5pbo>What's a baseset?
02:41<Terkhen>good morning
02:41<planetmaker>morning Terkhen
02:41<planetmaker>kd5pbo: the basic files required to have OpenTTD run
02:41<planetmaker>e.g. a sound set and a graphics set
02:42<planetmaker>though OpenMSX sometimes is called music "base set", too - but that's not required anywhere
02:43<planetmaker>"Base set" is the "B" in BaNaNaS ;-)
02:44<kd5pbo>Ok, I give up. Where do I find it?
02:46<planetmaker>Terkhen: thanks :-)
02:46<kd5pbo>planetmaker: Thanks.
02:47<kd5pbo>Better to download the sources and compile them myself, or does it matter?
02:47<planetmaker>yes. It matters in the work you put in.
02:48<kd5pbo>Yeah, but would I gain anything by compiling myself?
02:50<planetmaker>and possibly means to find future problems and possibly even solve them yourself
02:50*planetmaker likes logic applied in unexpected cases ;-)
02:51<kd5pbo>What's catcodec?
02:52<planetmaker>kd5pbo: unless you want to modify a sound, music or graphics set there's no point to compile it yourself
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02:53<kd5pbo>No, I don't.
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03:05<dihedral>planetmaker: hehe - i know a bunch of those people :-D
03:07<planetmaker>hu, dihedral ?
03:07<dihedral>< planetmaker> kd5pbo: unless you want to modify a sound, music or graphics set there's no point to compile it yourself
03:07<planetmaker>well... :-)
03:08<dihedral>i know a bunch of people who compile themselves where there is never a need too
03:08*planetmaker also knows such people
03:08<dihedral>a handfull of those guys run gentoo :-D
03:08<planetmaker>but those people don't ask "what is catcodec" ;-)
03:08<dihedral>no - they just emerge and man it :-P
03:08<dihedral>at least they try to
03:08<planetmaker>true that
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03:11<planetmaker>but then, merging and adding man is kind of a modification ;-)
03:13<@Rubidium>dihedral: is catcodec actually in gentoo?
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03:22<dihedral>Rubidium: 09:08 < dihedral> at least they try to
03:23<dihedral>there is bound to be some ebuild somewhere :-P
03:31<@Rubidium>dihedral: like the opengfx ebuild that just downloads the compiled opengfx?
03:32<dihedral>that's cheating :-P
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03:41<planetmaker>hm, nice, two new prospective pieces of music for OpenMSX :-)
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03:56<notjotham>hi, is it possible to swap wagons automatically during a route?
03:57<IPG>no but you can refit
03:58<IPG>in depot
03:58<notjotham>oh man, choice, that's exactly what i wanted
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04:08<notjotham>refit seems to be greyed out, and no cargos are in the list
04:08<planetmaker>It depends on the wagons
04:08<planetmaker>Not every wagon can be refitted.
04:09<planetmaker>I'm not sure, might be that default wagons cannot be refitted at all.
04:09<notjotham>ok cool
04:09<notjotham>thanks a lot
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04:12<IPG>may you can use nars or dbsetxl included refittable wagons
04:12<notjotham>my friends and i seem to just build coal runs
04:13<notjotham>it's pretty unimaginative
04:13<notjotham>what kind of runs do you guys find more enjoyable to tweak/build
04:14<planetmaker> <-- those, notjotham
04:15<notjotham>holy fuck
04:17<planetmaker>my personal favourites are games like #132 where we have a common main line and different (groups of) people develop different parts of the map with their own local networks
04:18<planetmaker>(the image shows my ICE terminal :-P )
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04:19<notjotham>we're just using the rc1 with no fancy additions, so i guess no cargo areas
04:19<planetmaker>well... "fancy" additions in that case are only the Japanese set newgrfs
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04:51<Pikka>Eddi|zuHause: patch works great, thanks :D
05:05<JVassie^>Pikka, teach me how to nfo
05:09<Pikka>any questions, feel free to ask :P
05:09<JVassie^>hehe :p
05:10<JVassie^>Im trying to do a remake of the British Stations .grf
05:10<JVassie^>with more realistic layouts
05:10<JVassie^>(i have permission)
05:10<Pikka>ah, stations.. one thing I've never done much with yet :P
05:10<JVassie^>mind you, the swiss set aint exactly finished either
05:13<JVassie^>with a moderate code/programmer background
05:13<JVassie^>nfo shouldnt be too hard i reckon
05:13<Pikka>nfo is easy
05:14<JVassie^>compared to say, java?
05:14<Pikka>mostly because nfo is a very simple language, and there's generally exactly one way to do any given thing.
05:15<Pikka>and there's relatively little overhead, no structural stuff or anything like that
05:15<JVassie^>aye i spose so
05:15<planetmaker>and then the easy-to-remember 'keywords' come into play ;-)
05:16<Pikka>planetmaker: you use a lot of comments
05:16<planetmaker>Pikka, sure I do :-)
05:16<Pikka>and keep the wiki open at all times :P
05:16<planetmaker>But it doesn't help me much with not yet written code ;-)
05:17<planetmaker>And yes, when I code NFO seriously I have like 6 wiki windows open at least :-)
05:17<JVassie^>I wouldnt dare attempt it without the wiki open
05:17<Pikka>well, once you've written the code for one vehicle, it's all just copypasta :)
05:17<planetmaker>indeed. Very true
05:17<JVassie^>planetmaker, you coded any stations before?
05:17<planetmaker>actually... I write it once and include the file several times ;-)
05:17<planetmaker>JVassie^, nope
05:18<planetmaker>JVassie^, the devzone has the code for some station sets, though
05:18<planetmaker>You might try to look at it.
05:18<JVassie^>[sweet voice] Link pls?
05:18<planetmaker>I don't know how much it is commented and how good
05:19<JVassie^>mind you i could try the nfo of the .grf im trying to update :p
05:19<planetmaker>dutch stations and modern stations are there
05:20<planetmaker>uh... de-compiled NFO is not the most readable one.
05:20<JVassie^>basically im trying to code something whereby there isnt platform between each piece of track
05:20<JVassie^>if that makes sense
05:21*TrueBrain loves latest XKCD :)
05:21<JVassie^>|z| || || |z|
05:21<JVassie^>where the |z| is paltform
05:21<JVassie^>and || is track
05:21<JVassie^>or alternatively
05:21<JVassie^>|| |z| ||
05:21<notjotham>are there any mods that change depots into something that looks more like a works yard?
05:21<notjotham>be nice if they had to bet he same length as trains etc
05:24<JVassie^>the grf im using only has 441 sprites
05:24<JVassie^>(according to grfcodec)
05:26<JVassie^>!seen Maesdhros
05:26<JVassie^>!seen Maedhros
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05:38<JVassie^>looking through modernstations nfo now
05:39<JVassie^>ever so slightly confusing
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05:46<JVassie^>is compression value of 09 the norm?
05:49<JVassie^>Pikka, apologies if this is a silly question :p
05:49<JVassie^>When building up a .pcx from scratch
05:49<JVassie^>Do I need to write the blue numbers in myself?
05:49<JVassie^>leave space for them?
05:57<JVassie^>XeryusTC, you dont happen to be around do you?
05:57<XeryusTC>i am
05:57<JVassie^>are you free to have a quickchat about some of your nfo pls?
05:58<JVassie^>ok, im looking at the alderville_station.nfo
05:58<JVassie^>at the end of each sprite declaration
05:59<JVassie^>you have something like this
05:59<JVassie^>/ Sprite 0, ID 42D, Platform (north)
05:59<JVassie^>basically, how are you arriving at ID 42D?
05:59<JVassie^>did you just pick it randomly as the start point?
05:59<XeryusTC>it is the id at which station sprites start
06:00<JVassie^>ah ok
06:00<JVassie^>so im making a remake of the british stations grf
06:00<JVassie^>however my nfo iskinda limited
06:00<JVassie^>so sorry for the nooby questions :p
06:01<XeryusTC> (see the part around the last table in that section)
06:01<JVassie^>ok will look now
06:01<JVassie^>also btw, im a little confusedregarding xrel and yrel
06:01<XeryusTC>having the wiki at hand is very useful when coding NFO
06:01<JVassie^>the bit i found on the tutorial isnt very helpful IMO
06:01<JVassie^>aye i have several wiki pages open :p
06:02<XeryusTC>xrel and yrel are used by OTTD and TTDP to align the sprite properly to its bounding box.
06:02<JVassie^>1 sprites\alderville.pcx 1 7 09 24 42 -31 -3 // Sprite 0, ID 42D, Platform (north)
06:02<XeryusTC>xrel relates to the x offset for the sprite, and yrel for the yoffset
06:02<JVassie^>so -31 and -3
06:02<dihedral>\o/ XeryusTC you are alive :-P
06:02<XeryusTC>-31 -3 means that the sprite gets moved 31 pixels to the left and 3 pixels up
06:03<JVassie^>using that page as a basis for the bounding box?
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06:04<XeryusTC>use the same as i linked too
06:05<JVassie^>that one?
06:05<XeryusTC>basicly you should read everything in the action 0 :o
06:05<JVassie^>im still declaring sprites, let alone an action 0 yet
06:05<XeryusTC>well, not everything, just the things which are needed to define basic stations
06:06<XeryusTC>so property 08, 09, 0B (if you wish to use callbacks), OC, 0D are very useful, 11 and 14 too
06:06<JVassie^>righteo, will look into them :)
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06:08<XeryusTC>hehe, no problem :)
06:09*JVassie^ shall try your values of x and y rel and see how it looks xD
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06:11<XeryusTC>what i've found is that sprites covering an entire tile need an xrel of -31 and an yrel equal to the height of their bounding box
06:11<JVassie^>so -3 because the platform is 3 pixels high?
06:11<JVassie^>ahhh ok
06:12<XeryusTC>however, platforms generally have weird x and y rels :o
06:12<JVassie^>where is it measured from, the topmost corner of the sprite?
06:12<XeryusTC>i dont know, you usually have to find it through experiment
06:12<JVassie^>hehe ok
06:12<XeryusTC>TTDP has a useful feature for it, it allows you to change the x and yrel while in game
06:13<JVassie^>so in theory, if a platform is the same size (and same rotation) it would have the same xrel and yrel
06:13<XeryusTC>indeed it is
06:13<XeryusTC>xrel and yrel is mostly affected by the size of the sprite
06:14<XeryusTC>IIRC the sprite gets drawn with its topleft corner in the middle of the bounding box
06:14<XeryusTC>or the northmost corner of the bounding box (north being up in this case, not the openttdcoop compass)
06:15<XeryusTC>i use the openttdcoop compass almost everywhere :P
06:18<JVassie^>omg ivedone 4 sprite declarations, i feel prouf of myself xD
06:19<JVassie^>now time to do an action 0
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06:20<PeterT>You're coding, JVassie^?
06:20<PeterT>Good luck with that.
06:20<JVassie^>BritishStations Set v2
06:21<JVassie^>think im calling it Modular Stations though
06:21<JVassie^>not sure
06:24<XeryusTC>hmm, i have got a Modern Station Set
06:25<Pikka><JVassie^> Do I need to write the blue numbers in myself? <- no you don't. :P sorry, was at dinner.
06:25<Pikka>you can arrange your sprites anyhow you like. you can have every sprite as a seperate .pcx file if you want.
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06:29<XeryusTC>Pikka: that would be quite silly imo, as grfcodec needs to parse every pcx file, and every file needs to keep to the x4 pixels constraint etc
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06:39<Gorillagram>I do, for regular hand-drawn graphics, keep every vehicle, industry, etc as a seperate pcx, though.
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06:47<JVassie^>XeryusTC, how hard is it do you know to do something like the CanSet do for the buffers?
06:48<JVassie^>And display different facing sprites depending on which sides it has station/track tiles
06:48<XeryusTC>not too hard, i have used it in the dutchset too, although it is a bit buggy :o
06:48<XeryusTC>the canset does it better
06:48<JVassie^>Basically, i'd like to do somethign similar with platform ends (sloping bits)
06:48<JVassie^>and point them down towards track
06:48<JVassie^>easier than having a south and a north
06:49<XeryusTC>people can also build sloping bits in the middle (if you have slopes like the industrial set's ramps)
06:49<JVassie^>fortunately, this is pax only :p
06:50<XeryusTC>i know, but people will always use stuff as it was not intended to be used
06:50<JVassie^>basically, it should either look like
06:50<JVassie^>=\ or /=
06:51<JVassie^>and if they try to do =\= it will change it to === automagically
06:51<JVassie^>thats far down the line though
06:51<JVassie^>still working on first action 0
06:55<JVassie^>XeryusTC, your first action 0
06:55<JVassie^>1 * 10 00 04 0A 01 ID_ALDERVILLE_COURT 08 MODERN_STATIONS // Put the station in the "Modern stations" class
06:55<JVassie^>action 0
06:55<JVassie^>04 for stations
06:56<XeryusTC>0x0A properties, 1 ID, ID_ALDERVILL_COURT is specified elsewhere
06:56<XeryusTC>then come the properties, starting with 08
06:56<JVassie^>which takes a string?
06:56<JVassie^>so i could MODULAR_STATIONS in?
06:56<XeryusTC>no, MODER_STATIONS is defined in the same file as ID_ALDERVILLE_COURT
06:57<XeryusTC>you should replace it with a 4 byte string
06:57<XeryusTC>whatever you want to use as the short name for your newgrfs
06:57<JVassie^>so for example, brstatsw.nfo means short name of brstatsw
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06:59<planetmaker><XeryusTC> you should replace it with a 4 byte string <-- why?
06:59<PeterT>i"m off now
06:59<JVassie^>oh i see what youve done
07:00<JVassie^>in the modern_set.nfo file
07:00<XeryusTC>planetmaker: because that is what the nfo specs say :P and i suspect JVassie^ isn't using a makefile atm :o
07:00<JVassie^>#define MODERN_STATIONS "MSTS"
07:00<JVassie^>#define ID_ALDERVILLE_COURT 07
07:00<planetmaker>oh... the station classes you mean? yeah
07:01<planetmaker>I guess so at least. I never looked at stations ;-)
07:01*JVassie^ is reading the makefile file intro
07:01<JVassie^>making more sense now
07:02<JVassie^>so doing it makefile way is better?
07:02<planetmaker>define 'better'
07:02<JVassie^>for someone who is new to it all
07:02<planetmaker>depends :-) I prefer it.
07:02<JVassie^>all being nfo
07:02<JVassie^>say for example
07:02<planetmaker>But it needs you being at least moderately comfortable with make, too
07:03<JVassie^>i didnt go down the route of makefile
07:03<JVassie^>how would i do the #define's in the same .nfo file
07:03<JVassie^>copypasta them in?
07:03<JVassie^>i presume not
07:03<XeryusTC>planetmaker: i just ran your Makefile for newgrfs for the first time, and it decided to delete all my .pcx files :s
07:03<planetmaker>XeryusTC, that's bad. you probably used it wrongly then ;-)
07:03<planetmaker>there are a few file names which clean will delete.
07:04<XeryusTC>like sprites/*.pcx?
07:04<planetmaker>that dir should stay un-touched
07:04<planetmaker>and I've never seen it being deleted in any project
07:04<XeryusTC>or does it start to behave odd when you have your nfo files in the same dir as the makefile?
07:05<planetmaker>But in order to tell *what* went wrong, I'd need to look at the files you used
07:05<planetmaker>XeryusTC, that might be. It expects the a dir called sprites/nfo
07:05<planetmaker>At least by default
07:05<XeryusTC>i know, and thus i edited it to ./ :P
07:05*roboboy reboots
07:06<planetmaker>yes, I assume then it may go wrong.
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07:06<XeryusTC>xD how ugly :P
07:06*JVassie^ begs for answer
07:07<JVassie^>asked for that i guess
07:08<planetmaker>XeryusTC, it was designed with a structure in mind. Misusing it may have side effects :-P
07:08<planetmaker>Any case, I shall bear that in mind when I re-write the Makefiles
07:08<XeryusTC>i have a structure, it's just different :P
07:08<planetmaker>see. And make tells you it's wrong
07:08<planetmaker>rm -rf / :-P
07:09<JVassie^>XeryusTC, any idea how to do defines within the same nfo file without using makefile pls? :)
07:09<planetmaker>JVassie^, no way
07:09<XeryusTC>you need to use makefiles
07:09<XeryusTC>as it relies on gcc :P
07:09<JVassie^>probably asking thewrong thing then
07:09<JVassie^>let me rephrase :D
07:10<JVassie^>how would I go about setting a name for the tile and which class it fits into without using makefile?
07:10<JVassie^>that better? :p
07:10<planetmaker>oh, tile, not title.
07:10<planetmaker>another action then.
07:10<JVassie^>that confused me more :(
07:11<JVassie^>got an action 8 done already
07:11<planetmaker>instead of the thing you defined somewhere else you have to put it into the same place
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07:14<DaleStan><JVassie^> XeryusTC, any idea how to do defines within the same nfo file without using makefile pls? :) <-- Run it through gcc manually.
07:14<planetmaker>hehe. also true
07:15<JVassie^>A typical DaleStan answer
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07:16<@peter1138>it's also correct
07:16<JVassie^>Action4 isnt it?
07:17<Ammler>JVassie^: I use simple bash for my mini grs
07:17<Ammler>could also work with batch :-)
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07:22<JVassie^>this code: "0C FE 0D FB"
07:22<JVassie^>means that the size may only be 1x3
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie^: if you want to use "#define" in an .nfo file, you have to run "cpp nfo-file > second-nfo-file" to resolve the defines
07:24*JVassie^ isnt going down the route of #define
07:24<JVassie^>too advanced for me atm
07:24<JVassie^>but thnx
07:24<XeryusTC>gcc -E iirc
07:24<JVassie^>still struggling with an action0 ;)
07:24<XeryusTC>then it only runs the preprocessor :P
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>XeryusTC: yes, cpp is the preprocessor ;)
07:25<XeryusTC>ah, didnt realise
07:25<JVassie^>XeryusTC, if its a bit mask for properties 0C and 0D
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>you can use other macro languages, like MB appears to use m4
07:25<JVassie^>how did you get 251 and 254?
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07:25<JVassie^>FB and FE
07:25<XeryusTC>you leave some bits out
07:26<JVassie^>for example
07:26<JVassie^>if i wanted to set any length
07:26<XeryusTC>every bit set is disabling a x or y button in the build window IIRC
07:26<JVassie^>but width of only 2 or 4
07:26<JVassie^>thats what the spec says
07:26<XeryusTC>for any length you can leave the entire property out
07:26<XeryusTC>you dont need to define both 0C and 0D
07:27<JVassie^>so in this case i just need 0C for # of platforms
07:27<JVassie^>and then disable 1, 3, 5, 6 and 7
07:27<XeryusTC>and 7+
07:27<JVassie^>so that would be
07:27<XeryusTC>although OTTD doesn't listen to 7+ :s
07:28<planetmaker>g'night roboboy
07:28<JVassie^>1 + 4 + 10 + 20 + 40 + 80?
07:28<XeryusTC>i just go by bits :P
07:29<JVassie^>or 9B in hex
07:29<XeryusTC>F5 i think :o
07:29<XeryusTC>for 2 and 4 enabled
07:29<JVassie^>oh dear
07:30<JVassie^>pls explain :(
07:30<XeryusTC>1111 0101
07:30<XeryusTC>that is what you would want to end up with
07:30<XeryusTC>that is, if a bit set is disabling that button
07:31<JVassie^>F5 seems way to high if just adding bit values up?
07:31<JVassie^>unless im confused about how the bit mask works
07:31<JVassie^>bit 0, 1 width, value 1, correct?
07:31<XeryusTC>well, i find translating from bits to hex easier
07:32<XeryusTC>JVassie^> 1 + 4 + 10 + 20 + 40 + 80? <- you use hex btw, but added them in decimal
07:32<XeryusTC>that might be your problem :P
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07:32<XeryusTC>adding those in hex also leads to F5 :D
07:33<JVassie^>so it does
07:33<JVassie^>i thought the values were in dec
07:33<JVassie^>not hex
07:33<JVassie^>lesson learnt on that count :p
07:33<XeryusTC>that's why i prefer to think in hex mostly while coding nfo :P
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07:35<JVassie^>only need properties 08 and oC i think
07:35<JVassie^>for a basic bit of platform
07:35<XeryusTC>and 09 if you wish to use custom sprites
07:36<JVassie^>oh yes
07:36<XeryusTC>but it might be that you can just use the last action 1 block without specifying property 09, not entirely sure
07:36<XeryusTC>as action 1 is refered to by action 2 via action 3
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07:37<XeryusTC>but that is where knowledge turns to just do what you've learned ;) i dont understand the action chain fully
07:37<JVassie^>if im defining 4 directions, i just need 09 04 followed by the sprite tiles themselves?
07:38<XeryusTC>you only define 2 directions, times the different amount of tiles you want to define
07:38<JVassie^>so you used 12
07:38<XeryusTC>but ttdp crashes if you only define two tiles (one for each direction) as it needs tile 3 and 4 too
07:38<JVassie^>3 tiles for the court bit
07:39<JVassie^>*2 directions
07:39<XeryusTC>*2 sides in this case
07:39<XeryusTC>i think, dont know if i'm thinking about the same alderville :P
07:39<JVassie^>the court is on both sides
07:40<JVassie^>so in the situation
07:40<JVassie^>where i want the platforms to appear like this
07:40<JVassie^>|z| || || |z|
07:40<JVassie^>ie only on the outer edges
07:40<XeryusTC>hmm, that is quite complex for the first platform already, as it needs a bit of varaction2
07:40<XeryusTC>but you'd need to define 2 tiles times 2 directions indeed
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07:41<JVassie^>lets go simple then
07:41<JVassie^>platform on both sides of each track
07:41<JVassie^>1 * 2 * 2?
07:41<XeryusTC>but the alderville code does the same thing, plus a bit extra for the second platform from the top
07:41<JVassie^>|z| || |z| || |z|
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07:42<JVassie^>no chance you fancy coding this is there? xD
07:42<XeryusTC>not really, i'm trying to fix the modern set for a release currently :P
07:43<JVassie^>thats the pic im using to referencewith btw
07:43<XeryusTC>(which will take all day i guess)
07:46<JVassie^>thats some mockups I did of a couple of possible layouts
07:46<JVassie^>good thing is most sprites are already done
07:46<JVassie^>they just need coding in a different way :p
07:48<XeryusTC>oh, there is a small problem with the roof imo if you code it like that, but that is purely astetics
07:48<JVassie^>what sort of problem?
07:48<JVassie^>and which picture? the middle one?
07:48<JVassie^>or the top one?
07:48<XeryusTC>the girders crossing the hall have glass in them
07:48<@peter1138>they do in the mockup as well
07:49<JVassie^>i just havent put the glass in
07:49<XeryusTC>yes, that's what i meant
07:49<XeryusTC>but it would require some special coding to prevent that
07:49<XeryusTC>making it even harder :P
07:49<@peter1138>you can do it with newgrfs
07:49<JVassie^>if you look at the bottom right picture
07:49<@peter1138>not too hard
07:49<JVassie^>thats how the roof would look
07:49<JVassie^>the only difference is the arrangement of the platform underneath
07:50<JVassie^>the set is basically trying to give more options regarding platform layout
07:50<XeryusTC>JVassie^: yes, and that roof has glass in the cross girders in the hall, while irl it is only at the front and rear girders
07:50<JVassie^>XeryusTC, ah ok i see what you mean
07:50<JVassie^>it doesnt look too bad IMO
07:50<XeryusTC>but well, that is up to personal taste
07:50<JVassie^>a perfect version would get rid of the middle ones
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07:50<JVassie^>regarding the layout
07:50<JVassie^>for most platform pieces
07:51<XeryusTC>but well, it comes somewhat near the complexity of Berlin Hauptbahnhof
07:51<XeryusTC>well, only like 15% :P
07:51<XeryusTC>but still :P
07:52<XeryusTC>that station cost me 3 days to code :o
07:55<@Rubidium>huh? You can't even code a realistic Berlin Hbf
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>we need underground and bridge stations! :p
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>and bendy stations! :=)
07:59<XeryusTC>Rubidium: well, the only thing missing is the huge bend and the sbahn/local platforms :P
07:59<XeryusTC>but the glass hall is coded ;)
08:00<@Rubidium>XeryusTC: what about the dozen or so underground platforms?
08:00<XeryusTC>Rubidium: well, the only thing missing is the huge bend and the sbahn/local platforms :P
08:00<XeryusTC>those are underground platforms IIRC ;)
08:00<XeryusTC>although, not entirely sure about that
08:00<@Rubidium>some sbahn in above ground
08:01<@Rubidium>under the big glass 'tunnel'
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>the sbahn is above ground, the underground sbahn is planned, the other underground platforms are long distance
08:01<planetmaker>IIRC two main railways cross there at different levels
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08:01<planetmaker>N-S and W-E
08:01<XeryusTC>well, the only thing that is coded is the glass hall :o
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>the east-west railway is above ground (4 long distance, 2 local), and north-south is underground (8 long distance, 2 local [planned]) i believe
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08:03<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that sounds about right with what I remember when I was there
08:04*SpComb^ got off the train at platform 13 yesterday
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>i was there a few days after they opened it
08:08<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: there's a U-Bahn Hauptbahnhof since mid 2009
08:09<__ln__>english only!
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: those are names
08:10<__ln__>so is english
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>besides English must be capitalised in English ;)
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09:38<@SmatZ>hello Belugas
09:39<planetmaker>hallöle :-)
09:41<Belugas>good day all
09:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r19224 /trunk/src/ (27 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: change parameters passed to ShowErrorMessage() a bit
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09:50<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r19225 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Feature: show warnings and errors in console as well, not only in a message box
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09:52<planetmaker>ah, nice :-)
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11:37<Belugas>snows outside
11:37<Belugas>a lot
11:37<Markk>Not here.
11:37<Belugas>big time a lot
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11:37<Markk>It's only -5 celsius outside. :)
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11:39<Belugas>think it's quite the same
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>it's thawing here :(
11:45<thingwath>2 months of snow aren't much, but still beter than... uhm... last year? or the previous one? I can't remember.
11:46<@Bjarni>no new snow right now, but there sure is a lot outside
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11:54<@Bjarni> <-- train operation during the winter can be.... interesting :)
11:55<@Bjarni>imagine handling this at the switching yard. It could take just a little bit longer than it would during the summer
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11:58<dihedral>Bjarni, ??
11:58<dihedral>go fix the os x port!
11:59*Bjarni casts spell of fixation on the os x port
11:59<@Bjarni>no effect :(
12:00<@Bjarni>it appears it's able to resist even the strongest magic known to man
12:03<XeryusTC>Bjarni: don't you posses the power of... *dramatic effects* black magic?
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12:04<@Bjarni>ssh. That's a secret
12:04<@Bjarni>officially I only posses the power known to man
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12:04<XeryusTC>you are a mac user, you have sold your soul anyway
12:05<XeryusTC>you must've got some benefits out of that deal
12:05<@Bjarni>This is typical. I post an image about real life and boom people start talking about magic (totally unrelated to the picture)
12:05<@Bjarni><XeryusTC> you must've got some benefits out of that deal <-- yeah I got a mac
12:06<dihedral>probably cost him his black magic :-P
12:06<@Bjarni>yeah my mac is white xD
12:06<dihedral>i thought you were (somewhat) good at coding that mac stuff...
12:07<dihedral>ops - where did that come from?
12:07<@Bjarni>keep that illusion
12:07<XeryusTC>Bjarni: that isnt really beneficial imo :P
12:07<@Bjarni>actually.... it's not like I suck, but I'm generally not very good with graphics :(
12:08<@Bjarni>I don't find it very interesting either (two facts, which might be linked)
12:11<@Bjarni>I'm disappointed in you guys. I went into the freezing winter and took a picture and all you do is ignoring it >_<
12:12<dihedral>which way would you link it? you dont like graphics so you never had the interest in doing that kind of coding? or you were never really good at (that part) of coding, so you never wanted to increase interest in graphics :-P
12:12<@Rubidium>dihedral: you did put the emphasis on *were*, right?
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12:12<@Bjarni>dihedral: actually I tried to solve it... you don't want to try the result
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12:16<aber>Bjarni: What did you solve?
12:16<dihedral>he did not :-P
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12:23<@Bjarni>actually I solve a lot of stuff all the time
12:23<@Bjarni>you will just not hear about the non-OTTD related stuff :p
12:24<planetmaker>fluoric acid solves nearly everything...
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12:24<Eddi|zuHause>except gold :)
12:25<planetmaker>some other things resist, too ;-)
12:25<Belugas>as well as a big fucking kick in the butt to headless jurks in big clean offices
12:25<planetmaker>wow. That came out of nowhere ;-)
12:25<@Bjarni>not quite
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>i think Belugas is just dilbert in disguise :p
12:25<@Bjarni>it came out of Belugas
12:26*Belugas would love to be able to do what he said
12:26<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: you could be on to something
12:28<Sacro>manlove from steve jobs
12:28<Sacro>ah yes
12:29<@Bjarni>$ make love
12:29<@Bjarni>make: *** No rule to make target `love'. Stop.
12:29<@Bjarni>looks like steve isn't a target
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13:00<OwenS>Hey, GCC, see that "-lpthread"? It means link against PThreads, please do so...
13:02<@Rubidium>try gcc -v and see if it passes it to ld, if so blame ld not gcc
13:02<OwenS>Looks like I actually need to pass "-pthread" rather than "-lpthread", since it also needs to link libpthread_nonshared.a
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r19226 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 31 changes by Kayos
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: catalan - 9 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: dutch - 7 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: esperanto - 112 changes by Ailanto
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
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14:35<__ln__>does it sound terribly formal to say "heutzutage"?
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14:41<__ln__>a little?
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14:47<Frankr>Can anyone here help me
14:48<aber>What was the question again?
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14:48<Frankr>I'm trying to add text into another text, stacking
14:48<Frankr>i have this code but it won't work
14:48<Frankr>79 * 16 04 03 FF 01 \wxd018 " Emirates" 00
14:49<Frankr>-1 * 0 04 03 FF 01 \wxd0AA "Liveries: \81\d0\18" 00
14:49<PeterT>Bjarni is here?
14:49<PeterT>Hey :-)
14:49<Frankr>hello and Petert
14:50<Yexo>Frankr: define "it won't work", does nforenum give an error, does grfcoded give an error, do you get only one text in game, don't you get any text at all in game?
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14:50<Frankr>sorry it gives me this error
14:50<Frankr>"//!!Error (161): Offset 17: Text ID D0 18 is not a valid text ID.
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14:51<Iseldra>Good evening ^_^.
14:52<Frankr>good evening Iseldra
14:52<Yexo>have you tried \81\18\d0" ?
14:52<Frankr>same error
14:53<Iseldra>Anyone know a neat channel where I can find someone to play openTTD with ^^?
14:53<Frankr>"//!!Error (161): Offset 17: Text ID 18 D0 is not a valid text ID.
14:53<Belugas>Iseldra: they all are dirty, i have not swiped the dead bodies yet
14:53<Frankr>a group or an individual
14:53<Iseldra>Sorry to interrupt ^_^
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14:56<Frankr>try #openttdmegaclan or #openttdcoop
14:56<Iseldra>Thanks ^^
14:56<Belugas>Iseldra: it was a joke... not saying you were interupting ;)
14:57<Iseldra>Oke :p
14:57<Frankr>Yexo: Do you think it is a bug then?
14:58<Yexo>Frankr: I'm not sure yet, I'm trying to reproduce it now
14:58<Frankr>ok thanks
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15:08<Yexo>Frankr: what happens if you ignore that error and try it ingame?
15:09<Frankr>i actually haven't tried that
15:09<Frankr>one second
15:10<Frankr>hmm, your right
15:10<Frankr>Stupid me, just assuming it wouldn't work
15:11<Frankr>Thanks Yexo
15:11<Yexo>no problem
15:11<Yexo>it would be helpful if you can create a very small nfo file (maybe just those 2 lines + a header) and post that in the nforenum topic on the forum
15:12<Frankr>will do, i'll put an ignore on that error
15:16<Yexo>hello notjotham
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15:17<notjotham>are there any mods that change depots into something that looks more like a works yard?
15:18<notjotham>oh no, using the wrong jargon
15:18<notjotham>god help us all
15:19<dihedral>it's a difference - and not a small one ;-)
15:19<Yexo>I'm not aware of a grf that changes depots into work yards
15:19<Yexo>notjotham: the problem here is that "mod" can also mean a source code patch
15:19<Yexo>so we prefer either "patch" or "grf/newgrf"
15:19<notjotham>ok, i assume there would need to be programatic changes to add works yards anyway
15:20<notjotham>since they'd basically be stations that reset the service interval
15:20<notjotham>it just feels kinda cheap atm that my whole train goes into this tardis and yet i can't even haul daleks
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15:25<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that heavily depends on context
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i use the word fairly often
15:26<frosch123> <- Frankr: it needs to be D4xx when using codes 80/81. though likely ottd does not mind
15:27<Frankr>ok thanks frosch123
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>notjotham: there once was a "drive through depots" patch, not sure how useful that was...
15:27<Frankr>I was just writing up a small nfo for the nforenum topic like Yexo had asked
15:28<Yexo>that's no longer needed
15:28<notjotham>yeah i was just getting the train back from the countryside the other day and realised that's what i was missing, work yards
15:28<Yexo>it was only needed if nforenum behaved incorrectly, which it did look like as it works, but as frosch123 pointed out nforenums error was correct
15:29<Frankr>Thanks Yexo and Frosch123 for both your help
15:29<frosch123>unless it complains on d4xx as well :p
15:29<Frankr>i'll try it now
15:29<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: ok, so i don't need to start avoiding the word either.
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15:32<Frankr>no it doesn't complain Frosch123, it seems to work fine just going to test in game now
15:35<Frankr>works like a charm thanks again
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16:14<Zuu_>Jumping in and jumping out.. :-)
16:17<__ln__>zuu, en fråga
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16:18<__ln__>quite off-topic... does the expression "jag är hemma från Xyzköping" exist in sweden, or is that something purely finlandsvenska? (the meaning of expression being "i am originally from Xyz", not "i just returned home from Xyz")
16:19<Zuu_>"jag är hemmahörande från xyzköping" works better.
16:19<Zuu_>or "jag är ifrån xyzköping"
16:20<Zuu_>or "jag kommer ifrån xyzköping"
16:20<Zuu_>the 'i' in ifrån can be omitted if you want as well. Depending on how strict you want to be.
16:21<__ln__>ok... but since i saw a native finlandsvensk use exactly the "jag är hemma från" construct, i guess we can conclude it is valid finlandsvenska. (i can feel the finnish influence in that form)
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16:22<Nite_Owl>Hello all
16:22<Zuu_>Possible. I don't know Finnish nor the dialect they speek up in north Sweden. But it is not far from what I would use.
16:24<@Bjarni><PeterT> Bjarni is here? <-- apparently not when you said that ages ago :P
16:24<__ln__>Zuu_: the spoken, informal finlandsvenska has many direct loan words from finnish, so it could sound interesting to swedes. :)
16:24<PeterT>hehe, Bjarni :-)
16:25<__ln__>what! Bjarni appears on channel without joining!
16:25<@Bjarni>not entirely true
16:25<@Bjarni>I didn't appear on channel :P
16:25<PeterT>* Bjarni (~Bjarni@Bjarni.pwn) has joined #openttd :-P
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16:29<Zuu>Sorry, my 3g-phone dropped the connection (I'm on the train to "staden jag är ifrån" (the town I am from)) ;-)
16:29<Zuu>Or actually, not really where I'm from from the beginning, but where I live.
16:29<@Bjarni>wireless connections sucks big time
16:30<Zuu>Been on 3g the last 2 days as I didn't borther to get the access code for the office network at the company where I'm doing my thesis.
16:31<Zuu>3G in central stockholm works farily okay. As long as you have your phone connected to the electricity constantly. :-)
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16:31<Nite_Owl>it also apparently causes timeouts
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>dropped connections have the tendency to time out, yes.
16:32<Zuu>Yea, but that is when you sit on a train going some 160 km/h or so or happen to get behind a hill.
16:33<@Bjarni>Zuu: so you are saying that you sit in an office with free internet access, but you didn't bother to get the password so you pay for 3G internet access instead?
16:33<Zuu>While UMTS is much better at doing handovers than GSM, it was not designed for fast moving between cells.
16:34<Zuu>Bjarni: Yep, because I only used like 100 Mb a day and got 5 GB a month.
16:34<@Rubidium>no mobile phone networks are designed for fast hand overs
16:34<Zuu>got to get off the train soonish. cya later
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16:35<Eddi|zuHause>that's why trains have "onboard" cells
16:35<@Bjarni>joining just to leaving?
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16:42<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: you are on a train too?
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>something like that :p
16:43<@Bjarni>don't use IRC while driving :p
16:43<@Bjarni>look out the front window instead or stuff could happen
16:43<@Bjarni>nasty stuff
16:43<@Bjarni>you could get caught
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>but... what about auto cruise?!?
16:45<@Bjarni>you are legally responsible for constant monitoring of your unreliable device
16:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19227 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Reorganization of parameters at CmdBuildRoadStop.
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16:47<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19228 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Move an additional check from CmdBuildRoadStop to CheckFlatLandRoadStop.
16:47<Nite_Owl>read an article a while back about a woman suing a caravan company because she put her caravan on cruise control and then left the driver's seat to go in the back to make a sandwich
16:47<@Bjarni>I read that too
16:48<@Bjarni>I think she won because the caravan company failed to write that driving wasn't allowed without a driver
16:48<@Bjarni>the fact that traffic laws bans it didn't matter in court o_O
16:48<@Bjarni>USA is so strange
16:48<notjotham>heh that's funny
16:49<notjotham>saw this movie idiocracy, it's a poor movie, but possibly it was a good script, there are some funny ideas in it in retrospect
16:52<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19229 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Allow to build multiple road stops using drag and drop (Based on Wolf01 work)
16:52<PeterT>Nice commit, Terkhen
16:52<@Bjarni>warning: NUL character seen; rest of line ignored <-- o_O
16:53<@Bjarni>I thought I could have NULL chars, but a NUL char... that's new
16:53<notjotham>idiocracy was much the same as the above anecdote about the retard operator
16:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19230 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Allow to remove multiple road stops using drag and drop.
16:55<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19231 /trunk/ (6 files in 5 dirs): -Feature: Allow overbuilding of road stops.
16:55<Nite_Owl>would that be Ctrl + drag and drop as it is for removing roads ??
16:56<Terkhen>thank you, PeterT
16:56<PeterT>Very useful
16:56<Terkhen>Nite_Owl: Ctrl + build station is already used by distant join
16:56<__ln__>Bjarni: NULL is a pointer conceptually, do not confuse it with characters.
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: the NUL character is the character with the byte representation "0"
16:57<@Bjarni>how did I type that one with my keyboard? :)
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: in c-contexts, this means "end of string"
16:57<Nite_Owl>so then bulldozer and drag and drop
16:57<@Bjarni>aber: I know, but I didn't type \0
16:58<@Bjarni>in fact I have no idea what happened
16:58<@Bjarni>but the error is gone again
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17:03<Belugas>doen for the day
17:03<Belugas>bye bye
17:03<Belugas>good night
17:03<@Bjarni>bye Belugas
17:04<Nite_Owl>later Belugas
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17:35<Ammler>hmm, renum uses hex for ids...
17:35<Ammler>that could be changed since escape support
17:40<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19232 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19231): Forbid overbuilding drive-through stops using a different orientation.
17:41<SpComb^>Eddi|zuHause: I did the Settlers II / Roman Campign / Mission V \o/
17:42<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19233 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix: the -M command line option did not work
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>congrats, i suppose :)
17:43<SpComb^>I snuffed out the yellow one, now I'm almost done with the red one
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17:43<PeterT>Is there a -M on windows?
17:43<@Bjarni>SpComb^: \o/
17:44<@Bjarni>running in DosBox? :)
17:44<Zuu>Terkhen: Nice that you did add compatibility layers for NoAI.
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17:57<Terkhen>I have tested them but I'm still a novice in NoAI, tell me if there are any problems :)
17:58<IPG>in the forum of translation of base sets
17:58<IPG>i see the hungarian translation, as not correct enough... :S
17:58<PeterT>Ok, so correct it
17:58<IPG>to another post, ok
17:58<PeterT>Highlight the differences you've made
17:58<PeterT>with blue, or green
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18:04<CrazySpai>Good afternoon.
18:05<@Rubidium>oh... a crazy UTC-6+-ish guy
18:05<@Bjarni>I'm kind of cautious about greeting crazy people. I risk they talk to me about nonsense and then I can't get away
18:06<@Rubidium>getting away is *easy*
18:06-!-snorre [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:06<@Bjarni>besides I refuse to provide information to "spais"
18:06<@Bjarni>ok maybe I will if it's false information
18:06<CrazySpai>Abbus and Costello?
18:07<@Bjarni>that's two guys at my local church
18:07<@Bjarni>nice guys
18:10*Eddi|zuHause takes note: whenever Bjarni gives information, it's false.
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18:11<CrazySpai>Note taken.
18:12<Terkhen>good night
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18:12<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: Then I suggest you ask him something interesting. :-)
18:12<CrazySpai>My next obstacle to tackle: Learning how to use multiple trains on the same track.
18:13<SpComb^>Bjarni: indeed
18:15<SpComb^> <-- offensive catapults
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18:18<Eddi|zuHause>catapults are crazy
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>if used correctly
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18:21<@Bjarni>catapults can use up all your stone and get you stuck if used incorrectly
18:21<SpComb^>this is the map that features huge walls of stone in your way
18:21<SpComb^>I had 1k stone in my HQ at one point..
18:21<@Bjarni>never got that far :(
18:22<SpComb^>but myes, 27 catapults ftw
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18:22<@Bjarni> <-- hmmm Lego ? catapult
18:24<@Rubidium>IPG: while you're fixing the translation, could you also add the translation for openmsx to it?
18:25<IPG>and opengfx also missing
18:25<IPG>I'll finish it in few minutes
18:25<@Bjarni> <-- wtf. Some rich guy built a trebuchet and uses burning pianos as ammo
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18:29<Nite_Owl>shades of 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail'
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18:36<Zuu>If <random linux dist> wants, they could have a AI-package which is recommended for the OpenTTD package. But even that solution has its drawbacks. The AIs will soon become old (not last version) and users will not know that they should start by updating them to the last version.
18:36<IPG>but it shows the active ones only
18:36<Zuu>If they have to find out how to download them, they will at the same time find out how to update their custom content.
18:37<@Rubidium>IPG: how can an inactive translator (i.e. someone who hasn't translated) be a translator?
18:37<IPG>have account and permission
18:37<planetmaker>Zuu: most people probably use plain vanilla as they get it from an install, though
18:38<+glx>it's easy to add content
18:38<+glx>it used to be way harder
18:38<@Rubidium>oh, then add TrueBrain and me as official translator for all languages :) Not that we do translations, but we have the permissions
18:38<@Rubidium>i.e. looking at permissions is pointless
18:39<+glx>any devs can be translator too ;)
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18:40<IPG>okay, but if more people are translating a language, there will be other ideas, have to talk about it to uniformize, and sometimes it's very hard to find all the translators...
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18:40<IPG>in the wt2 there was an option to send email to the translators
18:40<IPG>and see the others
18:41<@Rubidium>IPG: yeah, and *that* email function did not work
18:41<IPG>I've never tried.... :)
18:41<Nite_Owl>Need to feed - later all
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18:42<@Rubidium>there even once was something like, but that didn't work either
18:42<Ammler>you could grep commit log to find other translators
18:42<@Rubidium>also discussions via email get 'lost' quite easily. It's better to have something more permanent, e.g. a forum thread about the translation.
18:43<@Rubidium>that can be read later by new translators, allows input from non-translators and such
18:43<IPG>I think in the near future I won't need this, but in the past sometimes it was hard to find some people... :)
18:43<@Rubidium>it seems to work quite well for the German translation
18:43<CrazySpai>I'm going to jump into this conversation mid way through!
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18:43<IPG>nowadays we are translating the hungarian together with alyr...
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18:44<IPG>but there are some people who did make some translates... and if they have an idea to translate they wont know how to do some things... but the forum thread is a good idea
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18:44<IPG>but I dont know what's up with oklmernok or Miham... :S
18:45<@Rubidium>Miham got hit by reality
18:46<@Rubidium>maybe a wiki page with different translation threads should be linked from the FAQ of WT3
18:47<@Rubidium>then you can link from the wiki page to the german, hungarian and other threads
18:47<planetmaker>maybe a good idea. And / or link to language-specific pages
18:47<planetmaker>There some principles which the particular translation follows could be outlined
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18:48<planetmaker>And 'default' translations of frequent words which have non-unique translations
18:48<planetmaker>tracks = Gleise? Schienen?
18:48<planetmaker>it should be consistant and only one of those
18:48<Zuu>Sounds good. Translating a word is simple but maintaining a consistent translation requires some house rules.
18:49<planetmaker>apropos translations, Zuu. The base sets still miss a Swedish translation. All of them ;-)
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18:49<@Rubidium>even the English translation isn't 100% consistent
18:49<Zuu>Well, there should be one for OpenGFX which I made.
18:50<Zuu>But the others are yet to be done. :-)
18:50<planetmaker>right :-) That's still then there :-)
18:50<planetmaker>I just checked the translation thread
18:51<planetmaker>Uhm... Rubidium Brumi pointed out a blunder in OpenMSX description: it's a MUSIC set. Not a SOUND set.
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18:51<planetmaker>could you please fix that in the first posting?
18:52<IPG>hmm, at the last 999 revs all the hungarian translation made by alyr, petert and me
18:52<PeterT>is that bad?
18:53<IPG>and one by leiric, in the second thousand... who is he? :)
18:54<IPG>9 months ago oklmernok was also working...
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18:59<@Rubidium>planetmaker: time to poke Terkhen again :(
18:59<@Rubidium>poor boy
18:59<@Rubidium>the other translations use 'music' according too googol translate
18:59<planetmaker>I hope he isn't too ticklish ;-)
19:00<planetmaker>hm... Dutch: muziekset or geluidsvervangingsset ?
19:01<@Rubidium>I've 'fixed' that one myself
19:02<+glx>hmm seems I have some translation to do
19:02<planetmaker>Yeah well. So you want to do the commit? Otherwise I'd push those changes to OpenMSX
19:02<IPG>then, I open the Hungarian thread in General OpenTTD
19:03<@Rubidium>planetmaker: feel free to commit/push
19:03<IPG>or to Developement?
19:03<@Rubidium>the german one is in general
19:04<planetmaker>More people read general ;-)
19:05<planetmaker>It helps to make some detailed proposals right away, IPG :-)
19:06<IPG>it will be i think first a general "theres a bug fix it man" and others topic
19:07<IPG>is it allowed to use own language in these topics, or only parallel, or neither?
19:07<@Rubidium>I think the mods are against that
19:07<IPG>maybe parallel will work
19:07<Yexo>where possible, use english
19:08<Yexo>people who translate have to grasp the english too, otherwise they can't translate
19:08<Zuu>Hmm, I can only think of a very very formal translation of "credits" to Swedish :-s
19:08<planetmaker>Granted, translation threads in English 'feel' awkward.
19:08<Yexo>and if it'd be in whatever-language-other-then-english new people will start asking questions about openttd in general in that topic, if they don't know english
19:09<+glx>hmm orig_dos.obg miss default origin ;)
19:09<planetmaker>After all you discuss your own mother tongue in and the intricacies of that language in English
19:09<Zuu>But maybe it is already used somewhere in the about-dialog :-)
19:10<@Rubidium>glx: you're not translating them directly in svn, are you?
19:10<@Rubidium>I'll add the missing default on the next flush of base set translations
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>IPG: the german topic is in english, except for the actual translations
19:10<IPG>ok, thanks
19:11<+glx>Rubidium: I'll give you a diff ;)
19:11<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I'm still not convinced that it helps the topic itself. But then - it's an English forum.
19:11<Zuu>Hmm, "You can find it on your Transport Tycoon Deluxe CD-ROM" - it could be translated to either "den" or "det" depending on the surounding text. :-)
19:12<@Rubidium>it = $file
19:12<Zuu>Only one of them would be the correct one.
19:13<@Rubidium>it's something like "$file is missing. $message"
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19:19<Zuu>Now I'm trying to figure out how to write "please redownload from BaNaNaS" without including den/det as for eg AIs and scenarios would use different words for 'it' :-D
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>add gender support for base translations! :p
19:21<@Rubidium>Zuu: it won't be used for AIs/scenarios; only for the base sets (graphics, sound, music)
19:21<+glx>crazy ;)
19:22<Zuu>Good, because it is the last word in a combined word thet determines which 'it' to use and all three would end with 'package'. :-)
19:22<planetmaker>Rubidium: is there a way to detect whether a base set is outdated and give the user a hint to get a newer version?
19:23<planetmaker>I've seen already quite some screenshots where people use old OpenGFX with missing sprites
19:23<@Rubidium>not without going to banananananananananananananas
19:23<@Rubidium>or hardcoding versions in OpenTTD binaries
19:24<planetmaker>both is... not satisfactory... hm
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>make openttd home-phoning by default ;)
19:25<Yexo>add a version in openttd that is increased every time new graphics gets added, then add the same number to all graphic set obg files, check for obg-version >= openttd-version
19:26<Zuu>A GUI-wise blocking (but running the download asynchron from the GUI-update process) update dialog with a cancel button that show when OpenTTD starts should do it. Possible also with a confirm button before even trying to connect online.
19:26<Yexo>but that'll warn every time if there is no update for the graphic set
19:26<planetmaker>Bananas = Back doors And Ntwork administration Assumed. No Authorization Seeked
19:27<planetmaker>Yexo: might be an interesting idea.
19:27<planetmaker>Because every additional gui sprites makes a base set look ugly at some point
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19:30<IPG>I think it will be ok
19:31<@Rubidium>planetmaker: it'd mean releasing a new version of OpenGFX 'now'
19:31<Zuu>Yexo: Sounds like something rather more doable.
19:31<Yexo>Rubidium: why?
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19:31<planetmaker>Rubidium: yeah...
19:31<Yexo>add a version field to obg files, default to 0 if not present
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19:31<Yexo>set openttd-version to 0
19:31<Yexo>next time graphics are added the openttd-version will be 1 and current opengfx is outdated
19:31<@Rubidium>Yexo: but preferably people update to the most recent version, i.e. 0 is not enough
19:32<planetmaker>Yexo: in case OpenTTD has a new sprite and complains.
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19:32<planetmaker>It'd be bad, if then it complains and there's no 'cure' in form of a 'fixed' or updated GFX
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19:32<@Rubidium>and isn't it meant to 'force' the users to get the new version that contains the shade sprite?
19:32<Yexo>planetmaker: it's not that bad, just assume that new graphics are only added in trunk, not in release branches
19:33<planetmaker>Also true
19:33<Yexo>then there is only a big problem if a release is made without opengfx being up to date
19:33<planetmaker>Well, that can usually be helped to not happen
19:33<Yexo>but then what is worse: having users complain they want an update but there is none of users complaining their graphics are wrong
19:33<planetmaker>at least it worked for beta-1 ;-)
19:34<planetmaker>good question
19:36<Zuu>At least after the new base package has been released I gues it is better that the users know how to resolve the issue (update the base backage)
19:36<planetmaker>both is bad, so the current situation is easier :-)
19:36<Yexo>planetmaker: that was or course the worse case situation (update needed,but not yet available)
19:36<Yexo>after an update is available you get the situation:
19:37<Yexo>users complain about wrong graphics or get a warning they should update
19:37<planetmaker>well. It will happen. At least for brief periods of time
19:37<Yexo>some will then complain they don't understand to upgrade, but you'll always get stupid complains
19:37<Yexo>as long as those brief periods of time are nightlies only, I don't think it's a big problem
19:38<Zuu>The error message could contain wordings like that they should check for a newer version. Of course all users will wait a time and then ask. Some will wait very short time and thus be annoying.
19:38<Yexo>the nightlies themself are ocasionally broken too (as in, don't even start). Not often, but it happens
19:38<planetmaker>Well, yes. Having that for stable would be bad. But as said: that can be helped and worked for the first beta
19:38<planetmaker>At least if the change is only one additional GUI sprite
19:39<planetmaker>So... mostly I withdraw my implicit feature request ;-) - or make it only work for stable releases
19:41<@Rubidium>planetmaker: if (using(openttd-nightly)) use(opengfx-nightly); // problem mostly solved
19:41<planetmaker>but a person might update stable and re-use and old, inappropriate opengfx
19:42<planetmaker>but I guesss... they should know how to use bananas
19:42<@Rubidium>yes, but in that case the upgrade warning should 'just' work
19:43<@Rubidium>although it'll be quite opengfx specific, i.e. it won't work for newer versions of OpenSFX/OpenMSX
19:43<@Rubidium>nor will it work when there is a massive bug in OpenGFX and you want people to update to the fixed version and nothing changed in between for OpenTTD
19:44<IPG>zuu, i read your translate (base set), and i want to comment: in other languages like hungarian the whole text means a fully other thing if you not change the order of the words :)
19:44<Zuu>Okay :-)
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19:45<IPG>omg it's 1:45, i must go to sleep
19:45<IPG>good night!
19:46<PeterT>Good night
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19:46<Zuu>Sounds like a good idea. Night
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19:52<planetmaker>> nor will it work when there is a massive bug in OpenGFX and you want people to update to the fixed version and nothing changed in between for OpenTTD <-- also true.
19:52<planetmaker>so... no way except phoning home. Which is out-of-question
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>the versioning thing suggested does not sound bad
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>every time a sprite gets added to openttd, increase the version, tell all the opengfx users that their set is outdated
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>alternative: fall back to openttd[dw].grf for missing opengfx sprites
20:00<@Rubidium>oh... please not...
20:03<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19234 /trunk/bin/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Update: base set translations for French, Hungarian, Italian and Swedish
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20:10<aber>this is not as bad as Microsoft, but hey don't claim to use valid html markup
20:10<PeterT>Short url is short.
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20:11<+glx>aber: some errors/warnings are just weird
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20:30<Yexo>glx: as far as I can see all are valid (although there are a lot of duplicate warnings/errors)
20:31<+glx>they are valid yes, but most url errors/warnings are just caused by first one :)
20:31<@Rubidium>solution: remove the image :)
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20:35<+glx>reusing id is bad too :)
20:35<Eddi|zuHause>solution: remove macos port :p
20:36<+glx>music and sound too then ;)
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't look down that far...
20:37<+glx>a class would be better in this case
20:40<+glx>there are also 2 CSS errors
20:42<+glx>hehe all news with links to the forum are "wrong"
20:49<PeterT>SmatZ: What does varioussizes.diff do?
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 25 00:00:33 2010