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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-04

---Logopened Thu Mar 04 00:00:42 2010
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00:31<ccfreak2k><Yexo> maybe replace 2> by >
00:32<ccfreak2k>Depends on if he wants stdout or stderr.
00:32<ccfreak2k>Or, does DOS only have the one ppe?
00:32<ccfreak2k>Does DOS even have redirection?
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02:42<Terkhen>good morning
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03:02<planetmaker>good morning
03:06*roboboy goes to fidle with dos
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03:30<Yexo>good morning
03:30<peter1138>my answer's valid, right?
03:31<peter1138>(overlapping tiles/sprites)
03:31<Yexo>for overlapping ground sprites to wrok correctly I think the ground sprites will have to get a bounding box
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03:38<peter1138>even then, if they still draw the grass like that, it will overlap the rail overlay
03:41<TrueBrain>owh no, a di
03:42<planetmaker>Yexo: you'll need to pull your airports repo. Adding --gzip as tar option was a bad thing [TM] to do ;-)
03:42<planetmaker>also: the airports with default ground tiles: looks awesome ingame :-)
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03:44<peter1138>planetmaker, you've put railtype prop 16 in the middle of prop 15
03:45<planetmaker>attribute it to "too late for a good edit"
03:47<peter1138>oops, it's 8:47 suddenly
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05:40<Yexo>finally done with all ground tiles:
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05:57<Ammler> <-- Eddi|zuHause, heise does also use category strategy
06:03<SpComb^>Lizenz: Open Source
06:03<SpComb^>Preis: kostenlos <3
06:07<@Rubidium>Ammler: and simutrans is simulation, i.e. they're inconsistent
06:11<Ammler>yeah, it seems like everyone can post there
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06:29<planetmaker>nice, Yexo :-)
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06:31<Forked>woop woop
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06:40<PeterT>Yexo: Those airports look great!
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06:51<Pikka>yexo, I is has question
06:51<Yexo>hello Pikka
06:51<Pikka>hey :)
06:52<Pikka>is it possible/could it be possible to disable the default airports?
06:52<Yexo>currently not, but I'm planning to implement that
06:53<Pikka>okay, thanks :) as long as you're aware of it
06:53<Yexo>I'm also trying to find a way to define extra layouts for the default airports, so they can be rotated
06:54<Yexo>both require modifying the original airports
06:59<Pikka>recode the original airports as newgrf airports in openttd.grf? :o
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07:00<Yexo>that just leads to a whole lot of other problems
07:00<Pikka>if you want to be able to define extra layouts, it's hard to see what other option would be possible...
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07:01<Yexo>make prop09 add layouts instead of overwriting the previous prop09
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07:03<Yexo>in combination with a new prop 08 (id of original airport to modify, or FF to create a new airport) that would also solve your disable default airports problem
07:03<Yexo>just set the start year to FFFF
07:03<Pikka>I see :)
07:05*peter1138 is still annoying that all those extra layouts got added
07:05<Pikka>which extra layouts?
07:05*peter1138 is still annoying
07:05<peter1138>the airports that richk added
07:05<Pikka>they got added?
07:05<Pikka>which ones?
07:06<peter1138>the ones in current openttd, yes
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07:06<Pikka>them ones
07:06<Yexo>metropolitan, international, etc.
07:08<Yexo>without all those extra airports newgrf aiports would be a lot easier
07:10<@Rubidium>everything but the heliport, small, city and oil rig airport
07:13<Pikka>so newgrf(air)ports is in trunk? and newrailtypes is going straight into 1.0.0? D:
07:14*fjb misses some free space before and after the runway, so that the planes don't always hit the buildings. :-)
07:14<Yexo>Pikka: no, so far only newgrf airporttiles
07:15<Pikka>I see, Yexo...
07:15<peter1138>why D: ?
07:15*Pikka is looking forward to redoing some sea-based industries as ship-only ports rather than oilrig stations
07:15<peter1138>you're sad that newgrf railtypes is in, or sad that newgrf airports aren't? heh
07:16<Pikka>peter: I'm surprised at both. :P and sad that newgrf airports aren't
07:16<peter1138>newgrf railtypes has been around much longer, hehe
07:17<Ammler>fjb: you mean like that: (300kb)
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07:17<Ammler>(dunno, if that has changed in the meantime)
07:17<peter1138>Yexo, squeeze it in to 1.0 :D
07:17<wallyweb>!seen pikka
07:17<planetmaker>wallyweb, @ ;-)
07:18<Pikka>fjb: or like this? :P
07:18<Pikka>avast ye wallyweb
07:18*peter1138 drools
07:18<fjb>Yes, like that.
07:18<wallyweb>hello all
07:18<planetmaker>and road types!
07:18<wallyweb>Piyou do moderating?
07:19<wallyweb>That question was for Pikka
07:19<planetmaker>we only do excitation. Moderating is for graphite
07:19<Pikka>I can only moderating the graphics forums
07:19<wallyweb>Pikka: oui
07:20<wallyweb>hmm ... One of your topics, one of mine and one of DanMack's are all on the same subject.
07:21<Pikka>the helper loco thing?
07:23<Pikka>I don't think any of those conversations are busy enough for it to be a problem... mb's right that it's not a newgrf technical discussion though.
07:23<wallyweb>exactly and if it is to be moved then now would be the time to decide a proper location
07:23<Andel>if there is a problem please report it though
07:23<Andel>and mods will deal with it
07:24<Pikka>I can drop it in ottd suggestions if that's alright with peter1138 and Rubidium et al :P
07:24<wallyweb>hi Andel: Yes and agreed but who is to be the proper mod?
07:24<Andel>any global or area mod
07:25*wallyweb wonders if Andel does any moderating ;-)
07:25<Pikka>the word global is much better when read as "globule"
07:25<Andel>I do more than you know
07:26<Pikka>Andel's a power-trippin' son of a mother, he moderates all over the place. ;)
07:26<Andel>Globule refers to that little deposit that Grace left on my chest this morning
07:26<wallyweb>Would you be up for one more assignment/request?
07:26<Andel>yes Pikka... but I'm also a ninja
07:26<Andel>me? No wallyweb.
07:26<Pikka>globule is a nice word to say
07:27<Andel>I'm working at the moment
07:27<Andel>I'm actually working on a contract worth about £200,000 a year....
07:28<Pikka>wallyweb: I moved the thread to ottd suggestations
07:28<@Rubidium>ah, the big "duplicate and to-be-ignored threads"-bin
07:29<Pikka>Rubidium: I always wondered why people post in the "Suggestions commonly asked for" thread
07:29<Pikka>isn't what "commonly asked for" is a euphemism for obvious?
07:32<wallyweb>Pikka: Acknowledged ... Thank you.
07:34<wallyweb>And now I must be off. Thank you all and have a good day. :-D
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07:34<Pikka>goodnight wallyweb D:
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08:19<Yexo>Pikka: there are some issues with the current airport spec as defined here:
08:19<Yexo>maybe you can help me with some of them
08:20<Yexo>1. Airport tiles have a property "hangar #", arent't the depot locations more a property of the airport?
08:21<Yexo>all nodes have an x, y and z location. X and Y are relative to 0,0, but what is the reference point for z?
08:22<Yexo>tile 0,0 is not always part of the airport, and if it's not part of the airport the height can change due to terraforming
08:23<Yexo>possible solution: add a new property to airports: "XY offset from 0,0 to the tile that defines the base height for the airport"
08:24<Pikka>"1. Airport tiles have a property "hangar #", arent't the depot locations more a property of the airport?": depots have no location as such (it would be possible to code an airport such that an aircraft can drive in the depot on one side of the airport and reappear on the other). the "hangar #" property of tiles means "open the hangar window when this tile is clicked on"
08:25<Pikka>your possible solution to 2 sounds good :)
08:25<Yexo>problem is that in openttd code hangars are linked to a tile
08:26<Yexo>multi-tile hangars are done by opening the hangar window for the first tile that is part of the hangar
08:26<Yexo>but ok, current solution should work
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09:32<Yexo>hello Belugas
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09:40<dih>i always think of Telemaxx when i see that nix
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09:49<@Belugas>hey Yexo :)
09:49<@Belugas>mmh... waht a lg...
09:49<@Belugas>been worse... but still
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09:54<Timmaexx>lol my content downloader says he is on 104%
09:55<__ln__>you seem to be feeding him well
09:56<planetmaker>Timmaexx, you might investigate whether it needs some special circumstance to get that...
09:57<Timmaexx>I'm usin RC2
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09:58<planetmaker>the question is: does it happen always?
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09:59<Timmaexx>no sometimes he stops at 84%
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10:45<Priski>wait, openttd does not work behind NAT?
10:45<Priski>i mean multiplayer
10:46<aber>Servers in general do not work behind nat, port forwarding is the key.
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10:48<Yexo>joining a multiplayer game should be no problem
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10:51<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
10:52<dih>hehe - create some type of skype network handling :-P
10:53<dih>punch wholes in the fw
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10:56<aber>whats the difference between trunk and RC2?
10:57<OwenS>aber: Trunk is ongoing development. RC2 is just bug fixes against RC1.
10:57<Yexo>aber: all bugfixes in trunk will also be applied to 1.0, but (big) new features won't make it into 1.0
10:58<planetmaker>aber, you can consider it two different repositories
10:59<aber>id like to compile a new mac binary... the question is, what do i do? fixing the RC2 one or just compiling the trunk one.
11:00<Yexo>what is wrong with rc2?
11:01<aber>changeset r19285 - Change [FS#3638]: add the default installation directory of lzo/zlib for Mac OS X/MinGW to the paths where (the headers of) those libraries are searched
11:02<@Belugas> a commit log. there is something wrong about that?
11:03<Yexo>looks like that was missed and should've been backported
11:03<Yexo>Rubidium: ^^
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11:07<Priski>My bad with that, I forgot that I had ghostwall installed and all inbound traffic is disabled by default unless there is exceptions
11:10<planetmaker>aber, in any case that's not a problem which stops you compiling
11:11<planetmaker>worst case is that you use ./configure --without-lzo2
11:13<planetmaker>honestly, it doesn't hurt usually.
11:14<peter1138>gah, who knows ntpd setup?
11:15<@Belugas>don't look at me
11:15<peter1138>i want to stop it listening on each and every interface, if possible
11:15<peter1138>empty ;(
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11:16<@Rubidium>Yexo: that's a tricky and largely untested patch; the last time I commited an OS X related patch it backfired (broke compilation for many)
11:16<Yexo>ah, ok then
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>wait... the patch is not "well tested" by now? :p
11:17<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: last time it took a week or so before "they" came complain about the breakage
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>aber: it should be trivial to apply this patch to RC2
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>the difference between 1.0 and trunk is not that big yet
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 4619/24
11:19<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 192.458333333
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 4619/24/60
11:19<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 3.20763888889
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>hm... so of 4.6 days uptime, 3.2 days were used by one process...
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11:20<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: difference including or excluding language updates?
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11:21<Eddi|zuHause>excluding language ;)
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>at least those should not be relevant to osx compilation ;)
11:22<peter1138>okay... how do i make a debian package from something?
11:23<@Rubidium>peter1138: dh-make
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11:37<Pikka>gentlemen... is it possible to disable the default rail types?
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11:38<planetmaker>you could re-define them, Pikka
11:39<Pikka>except that's not what I want to do ;)
11:39<planetmaker>But I haven't seen a way to really disable it :-)
11:39<planetmaker>Yes, I know that I answered another question than you asked ;-)
11:40*Pikka places the question on the forums
11:41*planetmaker wonders how many different rail types sets we'll see in, say, half a year :-)
11:41*planetmaker also wonders whether we then can still imagine to have ever played without :-P
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11:42*Pikka wants to make a set with fewer railtypes, not more :P
11:43<planetmaker>err... why?
11:43<planetmaker>quite honestly: what's the point to *disable* types, if you don't re-define them?
11:43<Pikka>because I'm making a train set with fewer railtypes
11:44<planetmaker>yes. But... how does then, say, maglev hurt. It won't become active then anyway
11:44<planetmaker>Same as now
11:44<Yexo>planetmaker: I can image wanting to disable maglev if none of the trains use it
11:44<Yexo>not that it makes a difference as it won't become available anyway
11:44<planetmaker>Track types become available upon first use by a vehicle
11:44<Pikka>well, one of the rail types I'm not using is "railway"/"railroad", so...
11:45<planetmaker>Pikka, yes... no vehicle = no availability. Just make it also incompatible
11:45<Yexo>I really wonder kind of set you're creating then
11:45<planetmaker>And consider that there might be (concurrently) another train set which uses it.
11:46<Pikka>I thought there was a setting which made rail always available, but maybe I dreamt it
11:46<Pikka>Yexo: well may you wonder :)
11:46<planetmaker>hm, dunno. Not if you make vehicles not use it. By default any rail vehicle, though, works on normal rail.
11:48<Pikka>oh well, if there's no make rail available setting, I guess I can live with having it there but greyed out :)
11:48<planetmaker>that keeps compatibility :-)
11:49<planetmaker>Though I wonder whether it couldn't be changed within OpenTTD such that track types which are not (yet) available are not offered at all
11:49<Pikka>planetmaker: compatibility won't really be an issue, it's a set that's not designed to work with any other existant set... a toyland replacement. :)
11:49<planetmaker>Pikka, don't count on that remaining the only one forever :-)
11:50<planetmaker>But I'm very happy to hear "for toyland" :-)
11:50<Pikka>it's not "for toyland", it's a toyland /replacement/... :P
11:50<planetmaker>whatever ;-)
11:50<Pikka>all vehicle types, landscape, industries, town buildings, the whole thing.
11:51<planetmaker>Big project, eh?
11:51<Pikka>although it's not going to have many vehicles
11:51<Pikka>hence the not needing all the track types! :)
11:52<Pikka>oh: and stations, airports... :P
11:53<planetmaker>May I ask in what kind of direction that replacement aims?
11:54<planetmaker>(Ok, I may ask, but is there a chance for an answer? :p)
11:54*OwenS thinks he needs to turn up the size of OSS' buffers
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11:58<OwenS>WTF is causing 48% of time to be spent in the kernel?!
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12:13<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: usually I/O stuff
12:15<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Thats some impressive IO on behalf of a package manager which was just supposed to be downloading SunStudio. On Solaris, which is I/O optimized..
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12:15<Eddi|zuHause>and "downloading" is not I/O?
12:16<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Downloading from a 20Mbit/s connection should not cause 50% CPU usage I/O. Even rtorrent doesn't do that!
12:17<@Rubidium>20Mbit/s isn't the problem, the 'random' behaviour of torrents is
12:17<OwenS>Rubidium: This was a straight linear Package download over HTTP
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure, but with DMA turned off, I/O tops out at about 1.5MB/s here
12:18<OwenS>DMA is most certainly on
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>what i mean: if it's badly programmed, then the behaviour can be explained
12:20<OwenS>And additionally, it was making audio stutter. Audio comes of a separate RAID array...
12:20<@Rubidium>sounds like bad IO scheduling
12:21<OwenS>I'm actually suspicious that the package manager spun off a background task to check for updates and that was thrashing the package database...
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>don't you have locks for that?
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12:30<Eddi|zuHause>a "lock" means: "if program A uses the package database, program B cannot access it"
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>aber: that looks totally plausible if you messed up loading savegames :p
12:34<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: It probably used a lock, but that doesn't prevent the PM from thrashing the HD with lots of seeks
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12:51<Eddi|zuHause>hm... if one would make a railtype that is compatible with conventional, monorail and maglev, would the autoreplace window then allow replacing between these types?
12:52<Yexo>only if those rypes are also directly compatible
12:52<Yexo>but you could create a newgrf that makes normal rail compatible with monorail and maglev
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>so it does not check if there is a common successor, only direct successor
12:53<Yexo>not 100% sure, but I suspect so
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13:00<Luukland>Hi ha ho, could someone tell me when I set a basecosts of an engine in a .NFO, which setting will show me this value then? Running costs low, medium or high?
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>Luukland: the difficulty setting is an additional multiplicator, is independent from the .nfo
13:01<Luukland>then which setting multiplies it with 1x?
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>is that relevant?
13:02<Luukland>yes sir
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13:14<Yexo>Luukland: medium = 1, low = 75%, high = 112.5%
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13:15<Luukland>Allright, thanks!
13:15*Pikka bedtime, g'night all
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r19314 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 7 changes by Gavin
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frisian - 43 changes by Fopper
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: greek - 13 changes by fumantsu
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changes by Petert
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: korean - 45 changes by dlunch
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14:32<aber>it almost looks like this patch is breaking the liblzo2/savegame support?
14:32<aber>I compiled trunk an the save-game loading is fine.
14:34<Alberth>aber: you cannot disable industry closure in that way, in general
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14:35<aber>Alberth: because grf's have their own way to handle this?
14:35<Alberth>aber: yep, the game code only does what the industry wishes.
14:38<Alberth>eg you will end up with primary industries providing virtually nothing
14:38<Ammler>some people ask that openttd should be able to be extendable without patches, but then patch features which are already... :-)
14:39<aber>hmm? What can i do to trash this patch?
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14:39<Alberth>Ammler: perhaps rename 'advanced settings' back to 'patches'? :p
14:40<Ammler>aber: a newgrf should do the job
14:40<Alberth>aber: rm mypatch; svn revert -R .
14:42<Ammler>aber: if you need a example how to change behaviour of inustries, you might take a look on my lumbermill.grf
14:42<Yexo>aber: that patch indeed breaks savegame comptibility
14:42<Alberth>aber: you know the answer of question 5 of the general gameplay faq?
14:42<Yexo>the added lines in table/settings.h tell that allow_random_industry and allow_industry_closure are valid in savegame versions 99 to SL_MAX_VERSION
14:42<Yexo>but currently trunk is at 138 already and those are certainly not valid in trunk
14:43<Ammler>oh, indeed the famous froschyGRF :-)
14:43<planetmaker>:-) quak!
14:43<Alberth>hello PM
14:44<planetmaker>hello Alberth :-)
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14:44<Alberth>Ammler: yes, too bad not enough people read FAQs
14:45<planetmaker>if it weren't nearly obscene, it should be renamed to FIQ
14:45<planetmaker>frequently ignored questions
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14:46<Ammler>Alberth: I can't remember that GRF, always think, it is just a bad joke
14:46<aber>It's not what i was looking for...
14:46<planetmaker>well, in English might sound ok ;-). In German not :-P
14:47<planetmaker>hello legal alien
14:47<Illegal_Alien>Woohoo social contact
14:47<Ammler>does the grf also add possibility that power stations close?
14:47<frosch123>Ammler: it is approaching 1000 downloads without being on bananas :)
14:48<Alberth>frosch123: maybe you should put it on bananas, it will enter at #1 :)
14:48<planetmaker>frosch123, maybe add it to the fruit basket. Just call it differently :-P
14:48<planetmaker>haha :-)
14:48<Ammler>I should add my nothing.grf
14:49<planetmaker>oh yes. And I my newgrf_makefile newgrf
14:49<planetmaker>An action8 and that's it :-P
14:49<Alberth>Ammler: it will get downloaded, just my staircase heightmap
14:50<frosch123>[20:51] <planetmaker> frosch123, maybe add it to the fruit basket. Just call it differently :-P <- "better industries" ?
14:50<Illegal_Alien>Industrial Revolution sound way better :P
14:50<Alberth>'fixed industries'
14:50<Alberth>nicely ambigious
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14:51<Ammler>hehe, then you could make a tt-forums homepage and collect all "better" grf
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14:53<frosch123>why do i suddenly have 3 grfs with an empty name in my list
14:54<Alberth>you use " " as filename?
14:54<frosch123>one of them is pb_viaduct
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14:55<Ammler>that never had one
14:55<frosch123>oh, you mean it used the filename before and now keeps blank
14:55<frosch123>might be :)
14:56<Yexo>uh oh, looks like a bug from me
14:56<Ammler>or the grf
14:57<Yexo>where can I find that pb_viaduct grf?
14:58<frosch123>likely in pikkawiki
14:58<Yexo>ok, I got a copy now
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14:59<Ammler>Is it still possible to make a grf without name?
15:00<Ammler>wouldn't nforenum/grfocdec complain about?
15:00<Yexo>grfcodec doesn't check these things
15:00<Yexo>nforenum does complain, but you can create a grf without nforenum
15:03<OwenS>OK why have we hung GEdit? /me longs for Kate
15:05<OwenS>Oh so helpful. A D-Bus error while trying ti
15:05<OwenS>save a file over SFTP...
15:07<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19315 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Fix (r19295): Show the filename in the newgrf windows if the newgrf name is not empty
15:08<Yexo>as an added bonus the grf is now correctly sorted (that is, the filename is compared with the other names) so the grf without filename doesn't always end up at the top of the list
15:08<Yexo>*without name
15:08<Illegal_Alien>Wtf is this for program on tv? :|
15:09<Illegal_Alien>"Ella Enchanted"
15:09<Illegal_Alien>Let me feels like i smoke some bad stuff...
15:09<PeterT>A story about a women who actually does what she's told!
15:09<PeterT>(Of course, it's a fairytale)
15:10<Illegal_Alien>Yeah Elfs,... and talking books
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15:11<Illegal_Alien>And why we always have bad stephmothers? :P
15:11<Markk>Not stepmothers?
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15:14<Illegal_Alien>whatever :P
15:14<Illegal_Alien>English not my language so :P
15:15<@Belugas>we all kow it's klingon
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15:21<PeterT><Illegal_Alien> Yeah Elfs,... and talking books <-- I was talking about the women who do what they're told! :-P
15:22<Illegal_Alien>Hmm, "take of cloths" why wont they say that? :(
15:22<Illegal_Alien>or dont
15:22<Illegal_Alien>or whatever grr
15:24<Illegal_Alien>I am bored so random talking random thing with random subjects
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15:28<planetmaker><frosch123> one of them is pb_viaduct <-- I had that yesterday, too
15:29<planetmaker>(the empty names)
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15:29<frosch123>and you dit not report!
15:29<planetmaker>I didn't investigate and was not sure :-)
15:30<planetmaker>not even if it hadn't been that way before.
15:30<planetmaker>and I was... debugging my makefiles. I wondered about 'invalid tar files' - which was a result of gzip'ed tar files
15:31<planetmaker>Do I need to find more... excuses? ;-) I'm sure I can dig out more :-P
15:31<@Rubidium>hmm, so aber's 1.0.0-RC2 build is not an unmodified build? Then for my sake, and the sake of the rest of the development team, don't call it 1.0.0-RC2!
15:31<planetmaker>hu, Rubidium ?
15:31<@Rubidium>planetmaker: 59 minutes ago
15:32<@Rubidium>I really really hope that that's not the way the mac port is going
15:32<aber>Rubidium: noooo
15:33<planetmaker>oh... I missed the nickname... looks too much like a well-known German word ;-)
15:34<planetmaker>and yes... proper versioning makes so many things so much easier...
15:35<@Rubidium>planetmaker: yeah, those strange Germans
15:35<planetmaker>Only surpassed by the Dutch strangeness :-P
15:35<@Rubidium>I reckon you would "pronounce" OpenTTD's version as first zeroth zeroth RC one
15:36<planetmaker>Eins punkt Null punkt Eins RC Eins
15:36<Illegal_Alien>Hey whats wrong with me as dutch guy? :P
15:36<@Rubidium>Illegal_Alien: Dutch people are stupid morons
15:36<Illegal_Alien>Only if they wear white stuff on their head
15:37*planetmaker ponders whether Illegal_Alien knows where Rubi is from
15:37<frosch123>all dutch people have two letter abbreviations of their nick names
15:37<Illegal_Alien>I want my bike back
15:37<planetmaker>look in the local Gracht ;-)
15:37<@Rubidium>planetmaker: first column of the periodic table
15:37<aber>Rubidium: It's not that I supply people with broken and patched things. It's only changed the config.lib, as mentioned.
15:38<planetmaker>hehe @ Rubidium :-)
15:38<Illegal_Alien>Dont have a gracht here, not living in Amsterdam (luckely)
15:38<@Rubidium>Illegal_Alien: maybe next to the church then?
15:38<planetmaker>Illegal_Alien, I can swear to have seen them in many other Dutch towns, too ;-)
15:38<Illegal_Alien>Yeah but not in mine :P
15:39<Illegal_Alien>The germans have destroyed most of the city few decades back
15:39<Hirundo>Don't mention the war!
15:39<Illegal_Alien>I didnt say war
15:40<planetmaker>tsk ;-)
15:41<Hirundo>You can generally get away with mentioning it once, though ;)
15:41<@Rubidium>if it wasn't the war... then he must live in Zeeland or so
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15:42<Illegal_Alien>it was the war, just want to say thats why we dont have those things :P
15:43*planetmaker wonders why that might be a good excuse to fill them _after_ the war.
15:43<Illegal_Alien>They have been filled by the rubble of the buildings
15:44<@Rubidium>actually, I don't think that's true
15:44<planetmaker>Hardly a good excuse to say they were gone because of that ;-) It's water...
15:44<Illegal_Alien>Well, we dont have them :P
15:44<planetmaker>Not like you have little of it ;-)
15:44<@Rubidium>the three 'grachten' listed on were filled way before the war
15:45<Alberth>who needs Grachten when you have one of the biggest harbours?
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15:46<Eddi|zuHause>to connect the harbour with the inner country?
15:47<Alberth>no, for finding your bike of course
15:48<Illegal_Alien>Dont need those for that, the river Maas is going through the city.
15:49<Hirundo>The dutch invented triathlon this way: going to a gracht on foot and returning by bike ;)
15:51<planetmaker>loool :-)
15:51<planetmaker>Sounds even credible :-P
15:51<@Rubidium>Illegal_Alien: and the irony is that normally the "Oude Maas" and "Nieuwe Maas", which you meant with "Maas", is not fed by the actual "Maas" but by the "Rhine"
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15:53<Ammler>rhine? good swiss water :-)
15:54<@Rubidium>Ammler: I doubt that you want to call it "good swiss water" there where it leaves Germany
15:54<planetmaker>Might have been fed through a few nuclear power plants on the way :-P
15:54<planetmaker>or through BASF or Hoechst industrial facilities ;-)
15:55<Ammler>but it should be "clean" leaving CH, I hope ;-)
15:55<planetmaker>sure ;-) Seweso...
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15:56<planetmaker>hm... wrong plant. But there was one ;-)
15:57<Ammler>google for "Rhein Gift" hits list links
15:57<planetmaker>basel, sandoz
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that is because that's before it goes through major industrial cities :p
15:58<Ammler>oh, Basel is almost German
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>the only "interesting" part of the rhine on swiss territory is the "rhine fall"
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16:00<frosch123>[22:00] <Ammler> oh, Basel is almost German <- gaddafi?
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well, Basel Bad. Bhf is technically german territory on swiss soil
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16:03<Eddi|zuHause>apparently these Badensians didn't manage to build their railway on their own territory :p
16:03<planetmaker>why use your own, if you can use another person's? ;-)
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>they had some problems because of that during the war...
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16:08<Ammler>and the airport is on French territory?
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16:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r19316 /trunk/src/terraform_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19186): Give correct error when failing to flatten land.
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16:46<Fuzz>I don't suppose someone can help me with something?
16:46<Alberth>'something' may be a bit difficult
16:46<Fuzz>i dunno
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>getting ahold of "someone" might be, too
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>he's a very busy person
16:46<Alberth>yeah, he never seems to be here when you need him :)
16:46<@Rubidium>Alberth: but "someone" can do "everything", or at least gets assigned to do "everything"
16:46<Fuzz>i called ahead but he wasn't in
16:47<Alberth>Rubidium: we don't have him in our 'assign' list in FS yet :(
16:47<PeterT>Do you realize you spent two minutes discussing how he asked something?
16:47<PeterT>Fuzz: What's your question?
16:47<PeterT>Oh, right, #openttd...
16:48<Fuzz>do you know how to get the original music working in the beta?
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: it's not like we had something else to base a discussion on.
16:48<Fuzz>or even if it's possible?
16:48<Fuzz>i have the files
16:48<PeterT>just put the original_windows music in /gm
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>Fuzz: original music from windows, yes, from dos, no
16:48<PeterT>Fuzz: What OS?
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16:48<Fuzz>i'm running ubuntu 9.10
16:49<@Rubidium>install timidity?
16:49<Fuzz>oringal_windows is a folder?
16:49<Fuzz>or the .obm?
16:50<PeterT>/gm is the folder
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: /gm is most definitely not the right folder
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16:54<Fuzz>well that was certainly odd
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16:55<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: That's where my game music is, and it works.
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>Fuzz: "no route to host" means that someone yanked the ethernet cable ;)
16:55<Fuzz>well, my system hung
16:55<Fuzz>i just rebooted
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: no, you mean $personal_dir/gm
16:55<Fuzz>It was when i closed openttd
16:56<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: Right, well, that was implied
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: no, that is not.
16:56<PeterT>if you've read the wiki, /gm, /data, all in personal dir
16:56<Fuzz>in the home folder?
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>/gm is a subdirectory of the root directory
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>Fuzz: no, in ~/.openttd/gm
16:57<Fuzz>it is
16:57<Fuzz>oh wait
16:57<Fuzz>it's in /home/fuzzwig/Games/openttd/gm
16:57<Fuzz>the game itself works
16:57<Fuzz>just the music
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16:58<Eddi|zuHause>Fuzz: and that is also where the openttd binary is?
16:59<@Rubidium>Fuzz: in the "game options" menu, can you select "original windows"?
16:59<Fuzz>no it's not there
16:59<Fuzz>it just says No Music
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>then it doesn't find the files
16:59<Fuzz>or whatever
16:59<Fuzz>well the file is called orig_win.obm
16:59<Fuzz>should i rename it or something?
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>no, that should be fine
17:00<Fuzz>i thought so
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17:00<Fuzz>it's very odd, it just doesn't see the option for it
17:01<@Rubidium>if it doesn't list it, then it can't find it
17:01<Fuzz>well, it's in the right folder :/
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>Fuzz: you sure you have the windows music?
17:02<KenjiE20>if config in that dir too?
17:03<Fuzz>i don't have the windows music straight off the disc
17:03<Fuzz>but they've got the correct file names
17:04<Fuzz>GM_TT00.GM etc
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>filename does not suffice, it must be the correct file
17:04<Fuzz>it might not be exactly the same file
17:04<Fuzz>but the music itself is identical
17:04<planetmaker>md5sums have to match
17:04<Eddi|zuHause> must be 29714 byte and have the correct md5 sum
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>the md5sum is given in the .obm file
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>you have to change those, if you want modified files
17:05<Fuzz>it is exactly 29714 bytes
17:05<planetmaker>md5sum correct?
17:05<Fuzz>how do i check that?
17:05<planetmaker>md5sum <filename>
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>"md5sum <file>"
17:06<@Rubidium>what version of OpenTTD are you using?
17:06<Fuzz>the 10.4 beta
17:06<Fuzz>the latest one
17:06<@Rubidium>which of the 4 "latest" ones?
17:06<planetmaker>yes. whatever is it?
17:06<KenjiE20>what rub said
17:06<Fuzz>ok hold on i'll look
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>none of the "latest" ones are "beta"
17:07<Fuzz>version 1.0.0 beta 4 i do believe
17:07<Fuzz>it was the only one i could get to work
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>Fuzz: update to 1.0.0-RC2 if possible
17:08<KenjiE20>that's a lotta snow
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>Fuzz: anyway, did you check the md5sum?
17:09<Fuzz>not yet
17:09<Fuzz>i was side-tracked
17:09<Fuzz>i'll check now
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>must be 45cfec1b9d8c7a0ad45e755833cbf221 for
17:10<Fuzz>45cfec1b9d8c7a0ad45e755833cbf221 GM_TT00.GM
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>that's correct then
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17:11<Eddi|zuHause>i've run out of things to check then...
17:12<KenjiE20>is the config at /home/fuzzwig/Games/openttd/openttd.cfg ?
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17:13<Fuzz>you know, i don't think i have an openttd.cfg
17:13<planetmaker>you do
17:13<KenjiE20>it'll be in ./.openttd/ then
17:13<KenjiE20>~/.openttd/ even
17:14<KenjiE20>which might be why it's not working
17:14<planetmaker>it should still work then
17:14<KenjiE20>since I'm 90% sure everything is relative to the active cfg
17:14<planetmaker>hm... might be
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>KenjiE20: no, that should not be
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>KenjiE20: only the config location is checked first
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>then it should traverse the other locations
17:15<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but the music set used is stored in the cfg...
17:15<KenjiE20>hm, it does seem to differ between elements though
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: irrelevant
17:15<Fuzz>you're right it's in ./.openttd
17:15<planetmaker>what would then happen, if I used the same for another instance of OpenTTD, Eddi|zuHause ?
17:15<planetmaker>Fuzz: then copy your music files to ~/.openttd/gm
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: again, it's irrelevant for _finding_ the music files
17:15<planetmaker>create that dir, if it doesn't exist
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>also copying them should not be necessary!
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>it's a workaround at best, it does not solve the actual problem!
17:16<planetmaker>so you know the problem? ;-)
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the problem is the files are there, and openttd does not finde them.
17:18<Fuzz>right so
17:18<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: they should be in .../openttd/bin/gm
17:18<planetmaker>if local
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no that is not a requirement!!
17:18<planetmaker>uhm... being in one of the right dirs is.
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: he said it's the location of the binary
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>which is one of the "right" dirs
17:19<planetmaker>binarydir/gm is. Not binarydir itself
17:20<Fuzz>so have we got anywhere? xD
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i can't read people's minds, so if they don't tell stuff, that is their problem. but that is no reason to force them to move stuff to other places that should not be necessary
17:21<planetmaker>Did you by chance read readme section 4.2, Fuzz ?
17:21<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: asking them to move it to their personal global dir hardly is wrong usually
17:22<Fuzz>section 4.2
17:22<Fuzz>i'll take a look
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but that still is a workaround, it does not isolate the original problem.
17:22<planetmaker>it's a do-not-readme.
17:22<dih>yeah - never even think about touching that file
17:22<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: yes. Possibly true. But then it needs reproduction anyway.
17:23<planetmaker>Otherwise it's a "works for me"
17:24<planetmaker>then it really gets interesting
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17:24<Fuzz>any reccommendations?
17:25<Fuzz>fair enough
17:25<planetmaker>Any of those mentioned dirs is fine
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17:26<Fuzz>it mentions this 5. The installation directory (Linux only) Linux: /usr/share/games/openttd
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17:26<Fuzz>while mine is /home/fuzzwig/Games/openttd
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17:26<planetmaker>that's fine.
17:27<planetmaker>where is your actual binary? Exactly in ~/Games/openttd ?
17:27<planetmaker>and the *gm files are in ~/Games/openttd/gm ?
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>Fuzz: if you run "openttd -d misc=4", what are the first 5 lines?
17:28<Fuzz>ok hold on i'll find out
17:28*KenjiE20 holds onto Eddi
17:28<Fuzz>dbg: [misc] /home/fuzzwig/Games/openttd/ added as search path dbg: [misc] /home/fuzzwig/.openttd/ added as search path dbg: [misc] /home/fuzzwig/Games/openttd/ added as search path dbg: [misc] /usr/local/share/games/openttd/ added as search path dbg: [misc] /home/fuzzwig/.openttd/ found as personal directory
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17:29<Eddi|zuHause>that looks correct
17:29<@Rubidium>does it work if you rename ~/Games to ~/games ?
17:30<Fuzz>i'll have to change my bash but ok
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>my next suspicion would be that it doesn't like uppercase filenames... (they're called here)
17:31<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: uppercase filenames are fine
17:32<Fuzz>changing to games didn't help
17:33<Fuzz>yeah in the .obm file they have upper case letters anyway
17:33<@Rubidium>then I've got no clue anymore, besides missing files/incorrect checksums
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: debug output doesn't really tell which files it is touching...
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17:34<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [grf] Checking /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/trunk/bin/gm/orig_win.obm for base music set
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [grf] Adding original_windows (1) as base music set
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>that's the only thing it says
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>Fuzz: can you check the md5sum of all .gm files, and compare the values with the ones in orig_win.obm?
17:37<Fuzz>is there a way to check them all at once?
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>just give a *
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>like "md5sum *.gm"
17:40<Fuzz>now then
17:40<Fuzz>some of them appear to be in the wrong order
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't matter
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>except you mean, they were renamed
17:40<@Rubidium>exactly :)
17:40<Fuzz>quite possibly
17:41<Fuzz>the actual order is [md5s] GM_TT00.GM = 45cfec1b9d8c7a0ad45e755833cbf221 GM_TT01.GM = ab14ed3392d848abd2a2e90a9d75d121 GM_TT02.GM = dd4f696e4be5987ce738257b08b50171 GM_TT03.GM = a1bfde23343df9e4063419bf29c166b8 GM_TT04.GM = 4e6943aa0c455203d76c79389054747d GM_TT05.GM = cee281cb85a2e2343552d97640545a47 GM_TT06.GM = 26d1de5efa8675f94065784e9d539e49 GM_TT07.GM = 6f2691e17558f552ec4c565e4ab7139c GM_TT08.GM = a42bf2cb3340a822f1a69646fc7a4
17:41<__ln__>english only
17:41<Fuzz>mine is 45cfec1b9d8c7a0ad45e755833cbf221 GM_TT00.GM dd4f696e4be5987ce738257b08b50171 GM_TT01.GM a1bfde23343df9e4063419bf29c166b8 GM_TT02.GM 1b23eebb0796c1ab99cd97fa7082cf7b GM_TT03.GM 6f2691e17558f552ec4c565e4ab7139c GM_TT04.GM eb35761a58a8df3c59ed8929cce13916 GM_TT05.GM 4e6943aa0c455203d76c79389054747d GM_TT06.GM 7aec079e15bd09588660b85545ac4dfc GM_TT07.GM 26d1de5efa8675f94065784e9d539e49 GM_TT08.GM 4ce707a0e0e72419f0681dd9
17:42<Fuzz>so it's in a different order
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17:42<planetmaker>01 is already wrong or different
17:43<Fuzz>yeah exactly
17:43<Fuzz>*sigh* a long tedious process of renaming
17:43<Fuzz>unless i just modify the md5s instead
17:44<planetmaker>it's about ~20 files...
17:44<planetmaker>Better rename the files
17:44<Fuzz>i suppose
17:44<aber>or re download them *hust*
17:44<planetmaker>or you'll do the same with the next update of OpenTTD
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17:45<planetmaker>or use OpenMSX-or-how-that-shall-be-named ;-)
17:46<Fuzz>when i first downloaded them they were all called ttd00.mid
17:46<Fuzz>anywho i gtg
17:46<Fuzz>thanks for the help
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17:46<Eddi|zuHause>without telling us whether renaming worked?
17:47<Fuzz>well i've got school tomorrow
17:47<Fuzz>but ok
17:47<Fuzz>it'll take forever to rename them
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>what? you can do that in one line of bash script ;)
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>you have the output of md5sum and the correct mapping in orig_win.obm
17:48<Fuzz>teach me howwww
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17:50<Fuzz>i think they all need to swap about
17:50<Fuzz>and i don't know how to do that save manual
17:50<Fuzz>which would be awful
17:51<Fuzz>i'm missing a file!
17:52<planetmaker>better use aunty google to get them anew
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17:52<Fuzz>my GM_TT12.GM was named
17:52<Fuzz>but still half of them are wrong
17:53<Fuzz>right well seriously i have to go
17:54<Fuzz>but i'll try renaming them later
17:54<Fuzz>thanks for your help so far everyone, if it doesn't work i'll probably pop back at some point
17:54<Terkhen>good night
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17:58<Eddi|zuHause>md5sum *.GM | awk '{ printf "%s ", $2; system( "grep " $1 " orig_win.obm | cut -d= -f1") }' <--- this should give the correct mapping
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>wrong-file correct-file
18:00<planetmaker>unfortunately 3 minutes too late :S
18:01<OwenS>Ugh, I have some code which has a mixture of tab and space indentation. For extra fun, it's Python
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18:02<FauxFaux>Convert it to just tabs, it makes the python people cry.
18:02<OwenS>I'm converting it to just spaces tyvm :p
18:04<FauxFaux>Aww, 3 isn't even the right number.
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18:06<OwenS>Hehe, a quick s/\t/ / fixed it :p
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>for extra fun, correct indentation for people who have tab width 4 :p
18:10<OwenS>It was my own code. Must have been using a misconfigured Kate at the time
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18:13<peter1138>istr python only liked tabs at one point
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18:15<Eddi|zuHause>that must be a long time ago
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18:17<peter1138>tabs > spaces, anyway
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>not if python is so bitchy about correct indentation
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18:18<Eddi|zuHause>that's the problem, the first person with misconfigured editor will irreparably screw up your code...
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18:20<peter1138>well the solution to that is to just kill them
18:23<SpComb^>ln -sf /usr/bin/kill-all-my-processes-and-force-log-out /usr/bin/$EDITORNAME
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18:47<Eddi|zuHause>how about an action 2 for tunnel entrances that takes 8 sprites (front wall/top and back wall, 4 directions) and then a varaction 2 for ground type/climate?
18:48<planetmaker>what about base set differences, Eddi|zuHause ?
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: grf parameter?
18:48<planetmaker>MP server?
18:49<planetmaker>ugly for you or for me? Not nice really
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18:49<planetmaker>it'd be the reverse direction the airports just moved with their ground tiles.
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i don't think the problem is that big
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the "feature" that you are referring to also only works with unmodified base tiles, for any graphical modifications that will again clash
18:51<planetmaker>it works with overlays.
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but there are things that don't work with a simple overlay
18:52<planetmaker>yes. And?
18:52<planetmaker>One of the purposes of railtypes is to actually _remove_ the dependency on the ground tiles
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18:53<planetmaker>introducing in now through the backdoor via tunnels again is a bit ... strange
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but that simply does not work with tunnel entrances
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18:53<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: at no point in my suggestion did "railtype" come into play
18:54<planetmaker>that's why "currently tunnel graphics are actually provided by the landscape" makes sense
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18:54<planetmaker>yes, in the topic title. It gives somewhat the natural reference, eh?
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18:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: peter1138 said rail sprite on tunnel entrances is already an overlay, this is about a way to let newgrfs change the tunnel entrance itself
18:57<planetmaker>yes. He said that the entrance is now a landscape thingy
18:57<planetmaker>Making it a rail types thingy breaks landscape compatibility
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: there are already newgrf ways to create bridges, the point was to make bridge definitions independent from railtypes, these now only need to be extended for tunnels
19:02<planetmaker>the difference between bridges and tunnels is that bridges are _on_ the landscape, thus need not know about it.
19:02<planetmaker>Tunnels are per definition under. Thuns they need to know.
19:02<ashb>how is a tunnel entrance different to a brdige ramp?
19:03<ashb>in that regard?
19:03<planetmaker>ashb: it incorporates e.g. grass on top
19:03<planetmaker>and grass != grass for different base sets
19:03<planetmaker>thus you cannot draw that. And the newgrf cannot determine the correct one
19:04<planetmaker>or different desert sand colour. Or alike
19:04<planetmaker>differently drawn snow cover and amount
19:05<planetmaker>well. snow amount doesn't matter ;-)
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>snow amount isn't stored for rail tiles
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>just snow or not
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19:37<PeterT>fonsinchen: Hey
19:38<PeterT>fonsinchen: Can we talk in private?
19:38<zachanima>sounds ... kinky
19:38<zachanima>also it really doesn't
19:39<PeterT>I just have questions about his new alteconomy patch :S
19:39<PeterT>Also, that's not kinky
19:39<PeterT>zachanima: Hey, baby, wanna go in PM and *purr*
19:42<zachanima>these are delicious times
19:42<zachanima>1.0, et al
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20:02<PeterT>Grr, those tt-forums...
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20:50<Eddi|zuHause>why is track maintenance not implemented? it should be as simple as deducting an amount of money in the tileloop based on the trackbits present and a newgrf property
21:11<Priski>Eddi|zuHause: new feature soon in trunk?
21:11<Priski>or it should, is that what you are talking about
21:12<Eddi|zuHause>i'm asking why nobody did it, or if somebody did it, why it was not included
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21:13<Priski>well it seem pretty simple thing to do in a sense
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21:16<Priski>I would like that a lot, since i think that openttd suffers from overwhelming easyness...
21:16<Priski>at current state that it is
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21:25<Eddi|zuHause>like i said previously, linear costs don't solve the easiness. you always get to a point where you earn more than you can spend.
21:26<Eddi|zuHause>... or it gets so difficult that your first line won't get profitable
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23:20<Priski>"bad hunk" Applying pach suddenly took an ugly turn...
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23:22<Eddi|zuHause>seriously? THAT is what put you off?
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23:28<Priski>well it kinda sucks when you have no idea what to do and toddle around stuckness for hours
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23:41<ccfreak2k>Doing a "dry run" helps.
23:41<Eddi|zuHause>well, obviously you missed the part in the description of patching that says "you need to have a fucking clue what you're doing"
23:43<Priski>I though I did
23:43<Eddi|zuHause>also you missed the part in sesame street where they say "if you don't have a fucking clue, fucking ask someone!"
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---Logclosed Fri Mar 05 00:00:43 2010