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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-05

---Logopened Fri Mar 05 00:00:43 2010
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01:41<Priski>yep yep
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02:29<Terkhen>good morning
02:31<Forked>greetings
02:54<Pikka>wotcha
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02:56<__ln__>cheese
02:59<Pikka>vegemite
02:59<SirSquidness>Vegemite is quite distasteful.
03:09<Pikka>get out
03:10<Noldo>argh, why is it that programming has to be so hard
03:10<__ln__>just dump Java, and it'll be a lot easier
03:11<Noldo>I've been lucky enough to avoid Java in professional context so far
03:12<__ln__>me too
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04:11<planetmaker>good morning
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04:23<Pikka>the cake is a spy!
04:25*peter1138 ponders debian init scripts
04:25<peter1138>i need to start a program up, as an unprivileged user
04:26<Noldo>the program needs to run as uprivileged user or the signal to start the program comes from unprivileged user?
04:29<ccfreak2k>su
04:33<peter1138>former. su did the trick :)
04:37<ccfreak2k>You can send my check through the mail.
04:40<peter1138>no problem
04:40<peter1138>good job you didn't ask for a cheque, i suppose
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06:26*roboboy is confused by the jumper settings on some of his older IDE HDDs
06:32<LadyHawk>jumper settings
06:32<LadyHawk>gotta love em
06:32<LadyHawk>ide cable plug on the end cable select -> master, second plug in middle some place cable select -> slave
06:32<Illegal_Alien>Jumper <3
06:33<LadyHawk>'cable select' will mess up and wont work right when you get (un)lucky
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06:33<LadyHawk>it's fun to figure out wth is wrong and then it ends up being this tiny little jumper setting -_-
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07:14<Starn>Hello.
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07:26<planetmaker>hello Starn
07:28<roboboy>hello
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07:32*roboboy slams the door on doorslammer
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07:36<Starn>how is every one?
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07:39*roboboy might go to bed soon
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07:39<Starn>I am pondering on the Topic that is set... Do the rules allow for general chatter?
07:41<roboboy>I think so
07:42<Ammler>"greets" and "byes" are always nice (not OT) :-)
07:42<@Rubidium>hi Ammler
07:42<@Rubidium>bye Ammler
07:42<Ammler>Sali Rubi
07:42<@Rubidium>hi Ammler
07:42<@Rubidium>bye Ammler
07:42<@Rubidium>:)
07:42<Ammler>ah :-P
07:43<Starn>Ugh my bus's keep getting old.
07:43<Ammler>then replace it...
07:43<@Rubidium>Starn: look for autorenew and autoreplace on the wiki
07:44<Starn>I do It's only slightly annoying. My trains seem to last longer :)
07:47<Starn>So. Any suggestions for genre of music to make for OTTD? Please say something not related to jazz lol
07:48<roboboy>blues?
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07:49<Starn>I can't do blues or jazz related i can do classical and few others like techno classical and techo mix is decent.
07:50<Doorslammer>I reckon a mix of everything
07:52<Ammler>Starn: just nice MuSiX, I guess there is space for every style... :-)
07:52<Starn>Might some one be able to explain why Darwin 300 is the only aircraft to hold 300 passengers? And alright Doorslammer. I may not be able to create as much music as I have intended I had planed a minimum of 12 songs. But my amount of free time says other wise lol
07:57<planetmaker>Starn, the easiest step wrt to music is "start with one song"
07:58<planetmaker>You don't need to provide a whole set of 12 or so... we accept contributions from more than one person :-P
07:58<planetmaker>And a bit of variety doesn't hurt
07:59<planetmaker>after all there are three distinctly different themes available in the first place
07:59<planetmaker>we can use that to our advantage.
08:06<roboboy>what else apart from blues and jazz was there?
08:08<planetmaker>dunno. And IMO it doesn't matter
08:08<planetmaker>We don't want to copy the original
08:08<planetmaker>We want original music (in the other sense of 'original')
08:09<planetmaker>genuine
08:09<planetmaker>unique
08:09<planetmaker>fitting
08:09*roboboy understands
08:09<planetmaker>but those attributes can be attached to a number of different styles
08:10<planetmaker>I'm sure those people which know how to compose music will have a hand for that :-) I don't want to make too many restrictions there in the first place.
08:11<planetmaker>maybe not a hand but an ear ;-)
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08:16<planetmaker>Starn, classical music would - in my opinion - fit the game also nicely.
08:17<planetmaker>Maybe you also know apocalyptica ;-) - but I'm not entirely sure whether such would fit here from the setting
08:18<Starn>I would love to go Apocalyptica!
08:18<Starn>Now I just need to learn to play like them :P
08:19<Starn>Right now i am working on a peace with Church Organ and Drawbar Organ with some Orchestra Hits and Tremolo Strings. There is gonna be more instruments to.
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08:28<Ammler>maybe the Bolero :-)
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>is that expired yet?
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>with "important" pieces you never know what tricks they use to not let the copyright expire
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>like the sherlock holmes books, where the author is dead for more than 70 years now
08:31<Starn>Has what expired? And Ammler I'll see how it sounds and see what i can do to this peace. I've recored about 0:36:15
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>Starn: the copyright of the bolero
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08:32<Starn>ah oh i know some classical music i can preform with out copyright laws bugging me!
08:32<Ammler>I wonder, how that would sound with midi format :-)
08:33<Starn>As do I. maybe i can read the sheet music
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>why would that be different than any orchestra playing it?
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>at least, if you have any remotely sensible sound font :p
08:34<Ammler>http://users1.ee.net/lstone/bolero.mid
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: Maurice Ravel composed the bolero in 1928 and died in 1937. so copyright theoretical ran out in 2007
08:36<Ammler>might not be a tycoonish midi :-)
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08:37<Starn>I shall look into this. It seems like an good idea to me
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08:39<Ammler>do the midi players differ?
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>in what way do you mean?
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08:40<Ammler>does it sound different on windows and linux with different software?
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>midi only defines "play note <X> with duration <Y> at volume <Z>"
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>it defines "play with instrument <A>" but does not define "instrument <A> should sound like this"
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>that is defined by the soundfont, which can be cheap (= delivered with the midi device [soundcard or emulator]) or expensive (i have seen prices way above 2000€)
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08:46<Starn>indeed i use generic sound font that is widely used on linux and windows
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>the cheap sound fonts are likely synthetic, while the expensive ones are recordings from real instruments
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>then you can probably differentiate between ones that have one sample per instrument and resample that for each note, or ones that have separate samples for each note
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08:50<Eddi|zuHause>there are likely 265 instruments with 256 notes each
08:50<Starn>It's all synthetic from what i know. programs like fruity studio has recored sound.
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>plus a percussion set
08:50<Ammler>oh, didn't know, midi can also have text
08:51<Starn>I mainly work with MP3 and OGG formates. and Wav.
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>what "text" do you mean?
08:51<Ammler>like "Karaoke"
08:52<Starn>i can find no copyright for Boléro at the government site for the public copyright catalog
08:52<Chrill>Carrey Oakie?
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>ah
08:52<Starn>ammler spelled it correctly.
08:52<Starn>though that is how it sounds chrill
08:52<planetmaker>Starn, copyright doesn't have to be registered.
08:52<planetmaker>at least not where I live
08:53<Starn>where do you live?
08:53<planetmaker>EU
08:53<Starn>ah i am looking at the American database
08:53<Starn>copyright laws differ from country to country to.
08:53<Ammler>hmm, openttd could use chat to sing :-)
08:54<Ammler>or planes fly around with speach banners
08:54<peter1138>heh
08:54<peter1138>midi doesn't define any sounds
08:54<planetmaker>thing I want to say is: not having found copyright registered doesn't put you on a safe side to use it.
08:54<Starn>indeed.
08:55<peter1138>GM synths have a set of standardised instruments, usually sample-based (i.e. wavetable)
08:55<Starn>if i recall in US anything before 1978 unless otherwise stated is no longer copyrighted.
08:56<peter1138>the interesting stuff comes from realtime synthesis, which you can't rely on for ottd :s
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08:59<roboboy>gnight
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09:00<Eddi|zuHause>Starn: that only applies to works created in the US, not for international works
09:01<Starn>Created before 1-1-78 aka 1/1/1978. but not published 1-1-78 the effective date of the 1976 which eliminated common law copyright life + 70 years or 12-32-2002 which ever is greater and for published created before 1-1-78 but published between then and 12-31-2002 life + 70 years or 12-31-2047 which ever is greater
09:01<Starn>and stuff created before is slightly confusing.
09:01<Starn>i know for sure anything before 1923 is safe.
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>1928 is not before 1923
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>and again, only copyright within the country of origin counts, the rest is covered by the berne convention
09:03<Starn>1923 to 63 says when published with notice 28 years + could be renewed for 47 years now extended by 20 years for a total renewal of 67 years if not so renewed, now in public domain.
09:03<Starn>i am pretty sure what i am reading is international.
09:03<Starn>unless the EU is retarted with 100 year lasting copyrights.
09:04<planetmaker>70 years
09:04<planetmaker>mostly
09:04<Starn>and i highly doubt any one has copyright for anything longer than 80-130 years..
09:05<Starn>now i do know some one can buy the rights for a peace and recopyright it.
09:05<@Belugas>hello
09:05<Starn>Hello. Belugas
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>nope, all this "register and extend" business is USA only, for international copyright, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_and_Artistic_Works
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>"Under the Convention, copyrights for creative works are automatically in force upon their creation without being asserted or declared.
09:08<Starn>so does this mean all my published creations is copyrighted now?
09:08<TinoDidriksen>They always have been.
09:08<Starn>gah no bad! i don't want them to be! i want most of them to be fully open.
09:09<Starn>100% free no copyrights at all
09:09<TinoDidriksen>Then you have to explicitly state you're putting them in public domain.
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>"The United States initially refused to become party to the Convention since it would have required major changes in its copyright law, particularly with regard to moral rights, removal of general requirement for registration of copyright works and elimination of mandatory copyright notice. This led to the Universal Copyright Convention in 1952 to accommodate the wishes of the United States. But on March 1, 1989, the U.S. "Berne
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>Convention Implementation Act of 1988" came into force and the United States became a party to the Berne Convention, making the Universal Copyright Convention obsolete."
09:09<TinoDidriksen>If you don't have a "this work is put into public domain" then it's by default copyright to you until death+70 years.
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>note that "this work is put into public domain" is invalid in some jurisdictions, so it falls back to "life + 70 years" automatically
09:10<ashb>TinoDidriksen: public domain doesn't exist in some places
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>so generally use a real license like CC licenses
09:10<Starn>ah good i tend to use CC for programs ...
09:10<ashb>(the most commonly sited place where PD doesn't exist is Germany)
09:11<Ammler>or GPL for openttd
09:11<ashb>WTFPL is also good
09:11<Starn>is there still PD in US?
09:11<__ln__>NYPD!
09:12<Starn>you guys gonna make me get a lawyer and pay them to tell me what i can and cannot do. lol
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09:12<Starn>i highly doubt i can afford them for more than 10 days.
09:12<Ammler>well, you need also to declare PD, so you can as good use a "right" license right away
09:12<Starn>ah
09:14<Starn>i have an great idea! i know couple songs before 18th century i am sure they are not copyrighted now days
09:14<Starn>anyone wanna hear greensleeves in OTTD?
09:15<peter1138>no
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09:19<planetmaker>Starn, commedian harmonists :-)
09:19<TinoDidriksen>ashb, I can find no reference that Germany doesn't have Public Domain...also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Duration_Directive_%2893/98/EEC%29 made it equal across the whole of EU.
09:19<planetmaker>but... it might get critical there wrt expiration.
09:20<planetmaker>TinoDidriksen, that's the problem to find negative evidence. Prove that it exists here.
09:20-!-Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d198-53-213-246.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus]
09:20<planetmaker>And you'll fail doing so.
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09:20<Doorslammer>The only time I would ever want Greensleeves in OTTD is if there was an ice cream van GRF
09:20<TinoDidriksen>The directive equalized copyright law across the whole of EU...
09:20<planetmaker>TinoDidriksen, no, PD in Germany ;-)
09:21<planetmaker>there are constructs which are nearly the same, but not quite.
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Ravel,_Maurice <--- apparently they believe that copyright has expired
09:21<TinoDidriksen>Yes, since the rest of EU has PD, then Germany also does. They explicitly mention cases where things that previously were in PD in Germany no longer are due to longer copyrights.
09:22<TinoDidriksen>So Germany has had PD since WW2, at least.
09:22<planetmaker>TinoDidriksen, the difference basically is: copyright cannot be revoked. Only all rights given up.
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, germany has PD as in "copyright has expired" but not PD as in "creator releases copyright"
09:22<@Rubidium>planetmaker: http://imslp.org/wiki/Bol%C3%A9ro_%28Ravel,_Maurice%29 says " * While PD in Canada, this work is copyright in the USA until 1 January 2025.
09:23<planetmaker>PD=no copyright. "gemeinfrei"=no copyrights claimed / all rights granted for whatever use via license
09:24<ashb>yeah - thus saying 'i place this code in the public domain' does not work for germany
09:25<ashb>sayiung '(c) A. Other. Released under WTFPL' does work
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09:27<planetmaker>interesting site, thx, Rubidium
09:29<ashb>basicaly PD has all kinds of issues - not least of which its confusing. so an explict license of "do wtf you want" is just easier
09:30<@Rubidium>ashb: definitely, but it's hard to ask Ravel to do that
09:30<ashb>doesn't have to be WTFPL of course.
09:30<@Rubidium>just blame the stupid media industry
09:30<ashb>Ravel?
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09:31<@Rubidium>early 20th century composer
09:31<ashb>ah
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09:31<ashb>right yes :)
09:32<blathijs>ashb: What's this PD thing?
09:32<ashb>PD = public domain
09:32<ashb>in this context anyway
09:32<blathijs>Ah, obviously
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09:39<planetmaker>blathijs, you're the Debian porter of OpenGFX, right?
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>i believe lennard is the one responsible for debian packaging
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09:41<lennard>whu? I just run a mirror :P
09:41<planetmaker>the feature requests and bug reports for OpenGFX are by mathijs. Isn't that the same person?
09:42<planetmaker>+t
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, mathijs and blathijs are the same person
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't it matthijs?
09:45<planetmaker>blathijs, if so, it'd be nice, to check whether OpenGFX r308 fixes the issues you raised :-)
09:45<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yes. That's why +t ;-)
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09:47<Eddi|zuHause>with all these Mat[th]ias-people you never know how they spell their name...
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09:48<planetmaker>:-)
09:51<blathijs>planetmaker: Yes, I am. I'll have a look next week. I intended to have a look at the diff, but it is so massive that I had better just test it :-)
09:54<@Belugas>Hello mister Starn
09:54<@Belugas>sorry for lagging
09:54<@Belugas>usual in my case
09:54<Starn>Hello
09:54<U1>I think OpenGFX lacks stripclubs
09:55<U1>just saying
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>U1: you need newhouses for that :p
09:55<U1>oh?
09:56<U1>:D
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09:58<planetmaker>blathijs, yes... it's kinda a rewrite :-)
09:58<planetmaker>sorry if that makes reading the diff impossible. But hopefully better maintainable :-)
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09:59<planetmaker>at least as all newgrfs now can work with that
10:00<blathijs>planetmaker: Yeah, I noticed that. Seems sensible :-)
10:00<planetmaker>:-)
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10:59<peter1138>Can't exec "/tmp/linux-image-2.6.26-2-686.config.176571": Permission denied at /usr/share/perl/5.10/IPC/Open3.pm line 168.
10:59<peter1138>fail ;s
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11:29<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/03/04/has-ubis-drm-been-cracked-already
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12:46<Yexo>http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/airports/spec.txt First part of the newgrf airport spec, this doesn't allow defining new airports yet but it does allow modifying/disabling the default airports
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12:56<peter1138>ew, my title screen changed :(
12:56<planetmaker>Yexo, are there in TTDP only 4 airports?
12:57<Yexo>as far as I know yes
12:57<Yexo>3 + the oilrig
12:57<planetmaker>interesting. I never assumed that OTTD had that many more airports
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12:58<Yexo>newgrf airports would be a lot simpler if those new airports had never been added
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>TTD only had small, big and heliport
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>afaik the first step of openttd was introducing the metropolitan and international airport
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13:01<Eddi|zuHause>the second step was introducing the intercontinental and commuter airport, and the other heliports
13:01<Yexo>http://paste.openttd.org/225150 <- that's most likely the order in which they were introduced
13:02<Yexo>so indeed metropolitan and international first, but intercontinental was after commuter and helidepot (or at the same time)
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13:02<Eddi|zuHause>i believe they were at the same time
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>richk had some other airport designs, which were not included
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13:03<@Rubidium>metropolitan = dv, rest is richk
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13:03<planetmaker>he...
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13:04<@Rubidium>hmm, actually.. international is in 0.3.4 too. The rest isn't
13:05<@Rubidium>anyhow, metro + inter were added in 0.3.3
13:05<planetmaker>and the International is more efficient than the Intercontinental ;-)
13:05<@Rubidium>(0.3.4 is first svn thingy)
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13:06<@Rubidium>the others were added in 0.5.0
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13:07<@Rubidium>but intercontinental being worse than international (again) shows that richk's work wasn't that outstanding
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13:13<HackaLittleBit>yexo: Are there newGRF's that are compatible with all 3 base set's?
13:14<Yexo>what kind of newgrfs? if any, then yes
13:14<Yexo>for a lot of newgrfs the base set doesn't matter, like for town name grfs, vehicle newgrfs that define a complete new vehicle set, industry grfs etc.
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13:15<Eddi|zuHause>HackaLittleBit: vehicle newgrfs are likely base set agnostic
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>HackaLittleBit: house grfs depend on the implementation (e.g. alpine is not compatible, because it reuses original sprites)
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>station grfs also depend, if they include the track graphics (like newstations) or not (like ISR)
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13:17<HackaLittleBit>ok got it
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13:19<Eddi|zuHause>HackaLittleBit: in general, newgrfs cannot detect which base set is loaded, so incompatibilites can only be graphical
13:19<fjb>Alpine reuses original sprites? How bad...
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: it only contains the snowy roofs, the houses themselves are reused
13:20<HackaLittleBit>yes but openttd can
13:21<HackaLittleBit>but what I meant with "cetificate" is that when you allow "certain crucial interaction" some kind of meganisme should be in place to allow or not
13:22<HackaLittleBit>openttd or ttdp would be able to detect
13:22<HackaLittleBit>newGRF
13:23<planetmaker>that doesn't parse.
13:23<planetmaker>But allowing access to the type of base set used is THE nice source for desyncs you can think of
13:24<Yexo>if newgrfs use it correctly (only switch between two sets of graphics) then it isn't a problem
13:24<Yexo>the problem is that openttd can't detect how a newgrf uses it
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13:24<Yexo>so disallowing is the only way to ensure it isn't used in a wrong way
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>maybe there's a way for a static addon grf, that replaces the sprites that are accessed
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>like an action A for sprites provided by another grf
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>that will get ignored if the sprite in the other grf is not a real sprite
13:30<planetmaker>But then: static ones don't really need that: Make a version for each base set. Most people then will only need one
13:31<planetmaker>Or make one version with a parameter which decides. Then it doesn't need detection either.
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>i mean make a fancygrf-generic.grf that contains all the game logic, and make a fancygrf-dos.grf fancygrf-win.grf fancygrf-open.grf that contain graphics only
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>the -dos -win and -open grfs can then be loaded statically in case your base set differs from the server's base set
13:33<HackaLittleBit>makes sense to me eddy
13:35<@Rubidium>oh joy... the forum is again doing a good job making screenshots "smaller"... 140 KiB 1022x500px screenshot to a mere 800x391px of 'only' 800 KiB
13:35<Yexo>only problem is that >90% of the users will have no idea how to install a static grf
13:35-!-Zuu [~Zuu@c-f5f9e253.025-58-6e6b702.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd
13:36*Zuu finds a bug in OpenTTDAutoUpdate in the last version that was released long time ago :-)
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13:36<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: yes, that needs a GUI...
13:36<HackaLittleBit>:)
13:37<Zuu>It's a quite harmless bug, but just a bit annoying.
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13:38<SpComb^>port apt over to windows and push .debs of the nightlies :(
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r19317 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: croatian - 15 changes by UnderwaterHesus
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: estonian - 58 changes by irve
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: indonesian - 1 changes by fanioz
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 changes by Tucalipe
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13:58<HackaLittleBit>thanks, I have to go bye
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14:07<planetmaker>what would be a good name for a file which contains the expected md5sums of the files built by that very source tar ball?
14:07<planetmaker>md5sums.ref?
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14:08<planetmaker>s/built by/built from/
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>file.md5?
14:11<planetmaker>yes, if I wanted for *each* one file
14:11<planetmaker>but it'd be IMO more sensible to have all md5sums in one :-)
14:11<planetmaker>at least for this case. Otherwise I totally agree
14:12<planetmaker>actually I want to provide the list of expected md5sums for the OpenGFX grfs.
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>then call it package.md5?
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14:12<planetmaker>hm, good idea
14:12<Ammler>planetmaker: create it like I do for nightlies
14:13<Ammler>then I can use it there too :-)
14:13<planetmaker>Ammler: the nightlies have file.md5
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14:13<Ammler>rather name-version.md5
14:14<planetmaker>uhm... :-) Different problem, Ammler :-)
14:14<Ammler>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/nightlies/opengfx-nightly-r308.md5
14:14<planetmaker>As additional info / part of a source release
14:14<Zuu>Intresting two bugs related to the default install directory in OpenTTDAutoUpdate 2.0.1 :-)
14:14<Alberth>that'd be the md5 sum of the md5 sums file :)
14:14<planetmaker>Not as additional info for a file
14:15<planetmaker>Alberth: exactly ;-)
14:15<Ammler>planetmaker: it wouldn't hurt, if we could us it also for other things
14:16<planetmaker>Ammler: I don't (or didn't think) of generating that md5 file. But I could introduce such target, too
14:16<Ammler>oh, you like to make only one md5 over all?
14:16<planetmaker>But OpenGFX needs in that respect something special
14:16<planetmaker>No, neither.
14:16<planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/771
14:17<Ammler>yeah, that is exactly the file I do with nightlies
14:17<planetmaker>...?
14:17<Ammler>- md5 of the zip
14:17<planetmaker>but... that's not what is required
14:18<planetmaker>I want to provide means for a person only haveing opengfx-0.3.0-source.tar.gz to check whether the grf s/he built are the same as I built
14:18<Ammler>yes, and what is the file I pasted?
14:19<planetmaker>that's the md5sum of the overall bundle_zip
14:19<Ammler>please open it :-)
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14:19<planetmaker>no, it isn't :-P Sorry
14:19<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19318 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3661](r19198): crash when building an airport at a station where a plane was headed
14:20<planetmaker>where does that file come from?
14:20<planetmaker>simple md5sum *.grf > file
14:20<planetmaker>I assume
14:20<Ammler>yep
14:21<Zuu>Yexo: Sounds like an intresting bug. Guess if you remove an airport and then build a new one quick enough, you can have planes that head towards that station.
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>you can then do md5sum --check file
14:21<Yexo>Zuu: yes :)
14:21<Ammler>md5sum *.grf src/*.cat *.zip > ../$FILENAME.md5 2>/dev/null
14:21<Yexo>you don't even have to rebuild the new one "quickly", as the planes will head for a while to the station sign after the airport is gone
14:22<planetmaker>Ammler: yes, I guess I can / will add such target for source releases. Package.md5 sounds fine for me as name. Any other proposals?
14:22<Ammler>name-version.md5
14:22<Ammler>:-)
14:23<planetmaker>hm, but you know that already :-) And you'd have to add that check to your rpms ;-)
14:23<planetmaker>want a fixed name or a variable one? ;-)
14:23<Ammler>yes, but we would also offer that file with download
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14:24<planetmaker>yes, and?
14:24<Ammler>hmm, -zip
14:24<Ammler>well, do it, we will see :-)
14:24<planetmaker>ah... you want the same name used? What about zip?
14:26<Ammler>I guess, the md5sum of the zip isn't required
14:26<Ammler>and you don't need it in the source bundle
14:26<planetmaker>well, not IN the repo. But of course at the download site
14:27<planetmaker>just *.grf or *.cat
14:27<Ammler>yes
14:27<planetmaker>And *.mid ;-)
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14:28<Ammler>is it a bug, that the cat file of opensfx is in src/?
14:29<@Rubidium>probably
14:29<@Rubidium>I hope that when pm's done with opengfx's makefile he syncs it to opensfx. Then that problem should be gone.
14:29<Ammler>:-)
14:30<planetmaker>Rubidium: yes, it's planned. But first I want to get rid of all the tiny bugs which crept during the re-write
14:31<@Rubidium>that's what I meant with "when pm's done" :)
14:31<planetmaker>OpenSFX with it's slightly different structure / tasks doesn't make it 100% straight forward :-) But I didn't try as of now
14:31<planetmaker>Though it's intended to work with as little as possible mods
14:31<planetmaker>Same for OpenMSX
14:32<planetmaker>and I see that I have at least two weeks ;-)
14:32<Ammler>only
14:32<planetmaker>though the 2nd of those two weeks I'll be most probably 100% offline
14:32<Ammler>we have to hurry then with opengfx 0.3 :-)
14:33<planetmaker>Ammler: I count on you to deal with all houses :-)
14:34<Ammler>well, if I keep the speed, I need one week per house :-P
14:34<planetmaker>:-P
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14:35<planetmaker>Though I'm not sure that the next release warrants to be called 0.3 given the amount of changes.
14:35<planetmaker>It rather smells like 0.2.2 - but I'd have to check in detail the changelog
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14:37<Ammler>but the fixes for 0.2.2 should be doable...
14:37<planetmaker>mostly, yes
14:48<SpComb^>when is OpenGFX going to hit 1.0?
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>when it is done.
14:48<@Rubidium>when it's ready to hit 1.0?
14:48<SpComb^>isn't it done enough yet?
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>the track graphics (normal and maglev) look very ugly
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>there is definitely room for improvement
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14:51<planetmaker>Yes, there's room for improvement. In quite some places. Some easy visible ones, but also a lot of not easily visible ones
14:52<planetmaker>Like *someone* has to kinda re-arrange the bubble generator. Currently as-is the building stages are a pain assault on the eye
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15:01<Ammler>we really should play more toyland
15:05<@Rubidium>then the next openttdcoop maps shall be toyland maps!
15:05<KenjiE20>yes! :P
15:05<planetmaker>yes :-)
15:06<frosch123>if you encounter glitches with the toyfactory and sugar mine animations just beat me :s
15:06<planetmaker>oh ho... :-) tests are needed there, too :-)
15:07<planetmaker>frosch123: we'd get a stork ;-)
15:07<frosch123>anyway. is it accepable to ditch the .png if there is an equivalent .pcx in the repo
15:07<frosch123>+?
15:07<planetmaker>frosch123: I'd say yes. It's duplicate information
15:08<planetmaker>And actually doing so avoids double work in case the pcx differs *slightly*
15:08<planetmaker>e.g. same mistake re-introduced by changing the png, trying to correct something else
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>why did nobody ever introduce png support to grfcodec?
15:08<planetmaker>been there, seen that :S
15:08<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: *that* indeed would be awesome
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15:09<Ammler>need some convert options :-)
15:09<@Rubidium>now someone with the nick 'nobody' really needs to implement png support for grfcodec
15:10<Ammler>yes, because someone is banned :-P
15:10<planetmaker>Yes. Somebody has already too many other pending jobs. Nobody has not so many.
15:10<frosch123>at least everybody can talk about it
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15:16<fjb>How far does "nearest depot" look ahead to find the depot?
15:17<@Rubidium>as far as it does for manually finding a depot
15:17<fjb>Hm, how far was that?
15:17<frosch123>the automatic servicing does a penalty of 16 tiles. the forced nearest depot orders have no limit, though they cannot handle train reversing
15:18<frosch123>hmm, or was 16 limit increased?
15:18<@Rubidium>frosch123: it's configurable now, in pathfinder penalty tiles
15:18<frosch123>ah, right :)
15:18-!-aber [~Adium@gb049.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:18<fjb>The order did not find the depot ehead of the train. I have to investigate that.
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's configurable and the default was increased to 20ish...
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>not tiles, but added pathfinder penalties
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>so signals, crossings and the likes disturb the distance
15:21<fjb>It was an order anyway. Or does the order have that penalty too?
15:22<frosch123>no, it decides for a specific depot when the order is activated. then you can ctrl+click the start/stop bar to see whichh
15:22<frosch123>(assuming an reasonable recent version)
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: when the path is already reserved beyond the depot, it will not find the depot
15:23<fjb>I know. The decision is made at a waypoint near the depot.
15:24<fjb>Recent version. I didn't know about the new ctr-click on the start/stop bar.
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>that is new ;)
15:25<planetmaker>aaahhh...
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>ctrl is called "hiden feature" for a reason
15:25*planetmaker must resist
15:25<planetmaker>Somehow "frosch" inspires me currently to all kind of bad word plays
15:26<@Rubidium>maybe we should rename "hidden feature" to "easter egg"
15:26<frosch123>easter eggs are not supposed to be found by grep 'Ctrl+' english.txt
15:27*Alberth proposes s/Ctrl/EasterKey/
15:28<Ammler>everytime an other one
15:28<Alberth>including the any key :)
15:29<fjb>I thought I knew the useful ctr-clicks. That one is really useful. And I guess my problem is solved. It didn't need inspection but the go to depot rule included "for inspection".
15:32<fjb>That stupid oil well closed soon after I started servicing it. :-(
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15:34<planetmaker>http://paste.openttd.org/225151 <-- Rubidium, Ammler. Output as desired?
15:37<planetmaker>tar tfz opengfx-nightly-r308M-source.tar.gz | grep 'md5'
15:37<planetmaker>opengfx-nightly-r308M-source/opengfx-nightly.md5
15:37<planetmaker>^^ also
15:38<fjb>Hm, strange the train thinks the depot at the station where it started is the nearest, not the one ahead.
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15:41<Alberth>planetmaker: tar tzf 'f' takes a parameter, in your case 'z'
15:41<@Rubidium>planetmaker: looks okay, although I'm not quite sure about the opengfx.obg line (\n vs \r\n vs \r)
15:43<planetmaker>hm... I didn't look at the line endings there. But the md5sum of that is not that important - but should be the same anyway
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15:43<planetmaker>should in the sense I don't expect differences
15:43<Nite_Owl>Hello all
15:43<planetmaker>Alberth: hu?
15:44<Alberth>that works? maybe tar got smarter then
15:44<planetmaker>Alberth: yes, it was copy&paste ;-)
15:45-!-Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s5591a1ba.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
15:45<Nite_Owl>so planetmaker do you often feed dairy products to your removable media drives ??
15:45<planetmaker>meanwhile it can even deal with filenames > 255 chars extending over two different archive parts ;-)
15:45<fjb>Copying parts of the orders list would be great. Especially copying it to another vehicle.
15:46<planetmaker>Nite_Owl: :-D I use them as cup holders
15:47<planetmaker>when writing that I though of 3.5" floppy disk drives as "Scheiblettenlaufwerk" - those square cheese things you can buy pre-packed (but which don't taste well)
15:48<Nite_Owl>struck me as very funny in any case
15:50-!-asilv [~as@h-62-142-160-55.joensuunelli.fi] has joined #openttd
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>wtf are you talking about?
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: you can only copy all of it
15:51<Prof_Frink>Plastic cheese!
15:52<Nite_Owl>a very funny line planetmaker wrote on the forums - unless you are referencing something else
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15:52<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: That is why I said the copying parts of it would be great.
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15:52<planetmaker>Nite_Owl: unfortunately I don't find the corresponding Uli Stein cartoon online...
15:53<dih>uh - which one?
15:54<aber1>http://bilder.tauschticket.de/bilder/artikel/0409/xxl/8162303_xxl.jpg
15:54<planetmaker>^ that one
15:54<planetmaker>thanks aber1
15:54-!-aber1 is now known as aber
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>great aber, now you have the wrong colour
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: apparently, i'm not enough into cheese to get the joke...
15:57<Nite_Owl>I guess you have to had read the posting
15:57<planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=47491 <-- my last reply there I referenced that cartoon kind of
16:04<dih>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=47487 <- interesting - i seem to have mixed feelings about that :-P
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>there was some commercial a while ago where someone put a slice of salami into their cd drive... something about "make room in your fridge"... dunno what was actually advertised
16:05<dih>adverts for herta or whatever that brand was
16:05<dih>fresh torilini or something like that
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>might be... really not interested ;)
16:07<planetmaker>:-)
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>"It's a book about a Spanish guy called Manual. You should read it."
16:10<dih>L0L
16:13<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: or the Chinese guy Lied Mi?
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>you obviously never had a "lesenmir.txt" :p
16:14<planetmaker>:-P
16:16<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: no, though liesmich.txt I've encountered
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16:17<planetmaker>Rubidium: that's fine
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16:21<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r19319 /trunk/src/ (10 files): -Codechange: EnsureNoVehicleOnGround() returns a CommandCost.
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16:22<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i don't remember which program had that...
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>i don't find it in any of my old backups...
16:23<andythenorth>hi hi
16:23<PeterT>hi andythenorth
16:23<Nite_Owl>Hello andythenorth
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16:34<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r19320 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19291): Forgot to set error message.
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16:53<@Belugas>y0uhou! time to run home!
16:53<@Belugas>night all
16:53<Nite_Owl>later Belugas
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>is it summer time or did belugas just run home 7 minutes early?
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17:01<planetmaker>night Belugas
17:01<planetmaker>it's winter time. Again 5cm snow....
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>not here... it snowed yesterday like 1cm but today it thawed almost instantly
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17:04<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I'm West of you. It will reach you ;-)
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>you know... i'm in the rain shadow of the mountains... anything coming directly from the west will not reach me...
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>and i thought you were south of me?
17:05<planetmaker>Most certainly not :-)
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>or do you move around that much?
17:05<planetmaker>Not really... :-)
17:05<planetmaker>I might have lived South of you. For a few years :-)
17:05<planetmaker>But Lower Saxony is NW of Halle
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>i know where lower saxony is, yes... but i somehow placed you near munich... am i mixing something up or did you move in the last two years?
17:08<planetmaker>I never lived in Bavaria :-)
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>hm...
17:08<planetmaker>I had been living in Jena, though
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>then where did i get that thought from?
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that i know.
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17:09<planetmaker>dunno where you got the conception that I live in Munich. I'm not Celestar ;-)
17:09<planetmaker>@seen Celestar
17:09<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 6 weeks, 0 days, 8 hours, 49 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <Celestar> work cals
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>you are certainly not
17:10<OwenS>:-S. Django's inbuilt form validation is complaining that a field is empty... when it's not!
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>send it to dailywtf!
17:15<OwenS>Oh duh
17:15<OwenS>I forgot the default error reporting displays the error above the widget that has the error
17:30<fjb>Hm, my well served FIRS power stations are closing.
17:30<frosch123>oh, i just wanted to say "it is not snowing in bavaria", but looking out of the window told me different :p
17:31<fjb>Snowing in the Harz mountains too.
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17:46<Eddi|zuHause>hm... it started snowing here...
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>you don't actually see snow flakes falling, but you see the street getting covered
17:48<peter1138>try tilting backwards
17:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19321 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Codechange [FS#3630]: unify the rail station widget descriptions (sbr)
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>now the flakes are getting bigger
17:56<planetmaker>:-)
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18:12*OwenS <3 jQueryUI. It makes nice forms (which degrade nicely as well!) so easy
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18:20<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19322 /trunk/src/ (airport.h saveload/afterload.cpp): -Codechange: change the id of the oilrig airport from 15 to 9
18:21<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19323 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf_airport.cpp newgrf_airport.h): -Codechange: copy the AirportSpec original array to an internal array in AirportSpec
18:21<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19324 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_airport.cpp newgrf_airport.h): -Codechange: introduce AirportSpec::GetWithoutOverride to get a non-const pointer to a given airportspec
18:21<PeterT>Yexo commit spree!
18:21<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19325 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: introduce airport classes and split the default airports in 4 classes
18:21<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19326 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: store the airport name as property in AirportSpec
18:21<PeterT>he is unstoppable
18:22<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19327 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: make the oilrig a part of the original airports array so some special cases can be removed
18:22<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19328 /trunk/src/ (airport_gui.cpp lang/english.txt newgrf_airport.h): -Feature: a more extendable gui for building airports
18:22<peter1138>U U U U ULTRA MEGA MONSTER KILL
18:22<peter1138>does anyone still play UT? hehe
18:22<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19329 /trunk/src/lang/ (46 files): -Codechange: language updates for the previous commits
18:23<Yexo>and done for today
18:23<Ammler>now backport :-P
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>"miau" it says...
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 83-14
18:26<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 69
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18:33<SpComb^>what's this extendable GUI, eh
18:35<Ammler>is it like the station_gui patch?
18:35<PeterT>Which station_gui patch?
18:35<PeterT>newgrf gui, or fonso's gui patch?
18:36<Ammler>this: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/566/station_gui.png
18:36<Yexo>it's nothing fancy, jsut a dropdown to select the airport class and a list of airports in that class udner taht
18:37<Yexo>Ammler: only the top left of that (dropdown + list, and the coverage area buttons)
18:37<Ammler>so like the trunk station gui :-)
18:37<Yexo>yes
18:37<Yexo>support for a preview image is planned though
18:37<Ammler>:-)
18:38<PeterT>Ammler: yes, that would be the newgrf gui
18:39<Yexo>http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/airport-gui.png
18:39<PeterT>Meh, it looks different
18:39<PeterT>Could you make that configurable?
18:40<Ammler>why, that is fine :-P
18:40<Yexo>make what configurable?
18:40<PeterT>Never mind
18:40<Ammler>(just read back what is planned ;-)
18:41<peter1138>heh, only 4 UT servers online now
18:41<peter1138>last time i played there were thousands
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18:42<Ammler>Yexo: the airport branch did have rotation, was that buggy?
18:43<Yexo>no
18:43<Zuu>PeterT: Or try the NewGRF Airports branch to get an idea about what might happen.
18:43<Yexo>that's still planned, see property 0A
18:43<Yexo>it's "not implemented" as in not in my current patch queue, it is implemented in the airports branch
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18:43<PeterT>Zuu: To see what might happen to what?
18:43<Yexo>but it'll be a lot of work to sync that branch now
18:44<Zuu>PeterT: trunk
18:44<PeterT>Alright
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>that's the biggest trouble with half-merged patches
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>that was the final nail in the coffin for the ITiM patch...
18:45<Yexo>main problem in this case is that I didn't merge half of it, i committed a rewrite of half of the branch
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>the other nails are all GUI related :p
18:46<Zuu>So now you 'only' need to rewrite the second half :-)
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18:47<Yexo>yes :)
18:47<Zuu>Sounds fun :-)
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>... so you didn't commit the rewrite to the branch first?
18:48<Yexo>no
18:49<Zuu>And when you get bored there is always patches at FS to play with. ;-)
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>so the branch is "dead", and all further developments will be directly in trunk?
18:49<Yexo>depends, if I find a need for a branch again I'll either sync it or branch a new one
18:51<Yexo>main problem wiht working in a branch is that if you want to commit it to trunk you either have to do it in one big commit or do a lot of work splitting it up in smaller patches
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>so the branch was only for "playing around" [prototype], and now you do the real thing as a series of trunk commits
18:52<Yexo>well, first as a mercurial queue, then when a part of it is done I commit that part to trunk
18:54<Yexo>http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/airports/ there you can find my current patch queue for newgrf airports, it's bound to change from time to time
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19:02<Zuu>Night
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19:38<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19330 /trunk/src/newgrf_airport.h: -Cleanup: remove the now unused 'oilrig' from AirportSpec
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19:44<PeterT>glx?
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20:59<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r19331 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_airporttiles.h openttd.cpp station_cmd.cpp):
20:59<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Fix: when deleting an airport the size from the AirportSpec was used instead of the stored airport size
20:59<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Fix (r19319): detecting if a plane was landed at an airport failed
20:59<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Fix: reset the airporttile mapping when restarting a game
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22:27<Starn>Hello.
22:28<PeterT>Hi Starn
22:29<Starn>How are you?
22:29<PeterT>Good, you?
22:29<PeterT>Bit tired, actually
22:29<Starn>Pretty good.
22:29<Starn>Ah I would be. But I went to bed around 2pm... Woke up at 8. My time.
22:30<PeterT>Actually, I think I'll be heading off to bed right now
22:30<Starn>Alright. Night mate.
22:30<PeterT>Good night
22:30<Starn>I am gonna work on my song some more.
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22:31<PeterT>Good luck on that.
22:32<Starn>Hard to make a midi sound good. ;)
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23:33<Starn>what is the longest length a bridge can be?
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23:46<DaleStan>Starn: Depends on the bridge type and the bridge set loaded.
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23:47<Starn>i think its all japanese sets i am using and i am trying for more than 418 length bridge.
---Logclosed Sat Mar 06 00:00:45 2010