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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-06

---Logopened Sat Mar 06 00:00:45 2010
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00:13<DanMacK>!seen Pikka
00:14<DanMacK>wrong channel... oops :P
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01:51<Starn>how come when i try to play OpenTTD online it messes up my connection to the Internet it will start disconnecting and reconnecting until i restart my router every time i try playing online
01:52<Starn>you can email me answer at if i get disconnected again.
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02:52<dih>Yexo_, 10 c/m
02:52<dih>that is commit per minute :-P
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04:44<Terkhen>good morning
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04:50<planetmaker>good morning Terkhen
04:50<planetmaker>and also good morning all others :-)
04:51<Starn>Good morning.
04:54*roboboy feeds some cheese into planetmaker's CD drive
04:54<planetmaker>yummi :-)
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05:06<Starn>I'm extremely sad now. Every thing related to IRC i use to use is out of date by nearly 10 years.........
05:08<planetmaker>time passes, you know ;-) And it's good
05:08<Alberth>think about all the new stuff waiting to be discovered by you
05:08<planetmaker>^ that's the positive attitude :-)
05:08<Starn>Even the things for mIRC is out of date most upto date crap i can find addon/script/theme wise is 2005 lol
05:09<planetmaker>"the only constant is the change itself"
05:09<Starn>would the older stuff work on windows 7 64bit? so far mIRC is working....
05:10<roboboy>64bit shouldn't be a prob unless the software is 16bit
05:10<dih>planetmaker, wrong :-P
05:10<planetmaker>no! ;-)
05:11<dih>a lot of other stuff is constant too
05:11<dih>i.e. the fact that ms sells crap :-P
05:11<dih>the fact that apple mucks up their api with each new release
05:11<planetmaker>Though I don't generally subscribe to that either. :-)
05:11<planetmaker>(both statements are grossly general :-P)
05:12<Starn>tempted to go back to linux and just use irssi...
05:12*planetmaker tries to defend desperately the 'no' ;-)
05:12<dih>yes, way to go - in order to use a decent irc client, we move back to linux
05:12*Starn pokes planetmaker to throw him off
05:12*planetmaker jumps
05:13<Starn>well win7 is primarly my gamer/multimedia system.. and my linux is just sitting there getting dust...
05:14<planetmaker>that sounds like a user error ;-)
05:15<Starn>i play alot of games where they ban you if you're on linux...
05:15<planetmaker>that sounds like a peer-group error :-P
05:15<Starn>the american Army.. and punkbuster lol
05:16*roboboy ponders trying to play Tube
05:16*planetmaker is basically sick of "this OS is 'better'" - and uses at least three on a daily basis
05:17<roboboy>which do you think is better?
05:17<Starn>brb installing polaris X only thing i could find the reminds me of the past and looks like its easy to use like the old school stuff
05:17<planetmaker>Depends on the task at hand, roboboy :-)
05:17<Starn>i think all are eqaully great
05:17<planetmaker>All equally suck ;-)
05:17<Starn>though if your into hacking i don't suggest windows..
05:17*roboboy agrees
05:17<planetmaker>just differently
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05:18*roboboy likes MSDOS for somethings
05:18<planetmaker>hehe :-)
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05:18<planetmaker>somewhere below my roof there's a box with 2 5.25" disks with MSDOS 3.3...
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05:19<roboboy>playing (O)TT(O)(D(P))
05:19<roboboy>thats what DOS is good for
05:19<planetmaker>for OpenTTD it *might* not be the best choice, even if it works ;-)
05:19<roboboy>if I could get it on the net id use it for IRC
05:20<roboboy>yeah OpenTTD is best not run under DOS
05:20<roboboy>unless someone gets it to have network support
05:20<planetmaker>That's afaik a DOS issue there, not OpenTTD one
05:21<roboboy>yeah as there is no standard TCP/IP stack for DOS
05:22<roboboy>you could try and target trumpet which is from my knowledge pretty standard and pretty similar to the berkley sockets standard
05:23*roboboy wonders why Win TTD uses a different palette to DOS TTD
05:24<planetmaker>probably 'hysterical raisins' [TM]
05:25<roboboy>I wonder if the Win version of OpenGFX would work under DOS OTTD
05:25<planetmaker>it would
05:26<planetmaker>the name "dos palette" and "win palette" has nothing to do with the OS it is run under.
05:26<roboboy>thats what I would think
05:26<planetmaker>Just... historical reasons for the names
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05:27<roboboy>so why change the pallete? Wouldn't that have meant extra work that is theoretically unneeded
05:27<roboboy>unless directx didn't like the DOS palette
05:28<planetmaker>wb, Starn
05:28<Starn>probably what it was roboboy
05:28<planetmaker>roboboy: who knows :-)
05:29<roboboy>but then OpenTTD shouldn't be able to use the DOS files on windows, so that can't be it
05:29<planetmaker>roboboy: you might need to investigate old 1st generation VGA cards probably in order to find out ;-)
05:32<roboboy>dont both palettes offer exactly the same core colours?
05:33<planetmaker>the DOS palette has more
05:33<roboboy>never knew that
05:34<roboboy>I thought the windows Palette had more
05:34<planetmaker> <-- compare yourself :-)
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05:45<Starn>So.. I totally scrapped my music project and have started over again.. I found it to be to fitting for roleplaying games.
05:47<dih><Starn> i play alot of games where they ban you if you're on linux... <- you just play a lot of games with the wrong people
05:49<Starn>dih: lol yea no joke well its mainly punkbuster whom ban me and other anticheat people saying invalid windows API under linux most games i run are under wine.
05:49<ccfreak2k>That's because PunkBuster sucks.
05:49<Starn>ccfreak2k: i agree so much. I
05:50<Starn>I've been looking for ways to shut them down legally.
05:51<Starn>Holy Crap. I wish I had dual monitors back when i used IRC daily! This is rather useful.
05:51<dih>do elaborate... while i go get some popcorn
05:55<Starn>well dih. About a year ago they banned me from every game that used PB even games that was just bought they did this on false terms at that. So I am sure you know my fustration with them? I've Resolved these issues after 4 months of fighting them. They are technically a hack anyways. So if its bad to use hacks shouldnt it be bad to use them as well?
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05:56<dih>ho - this is cute!
05:56<@Rubidium>so... just play OpenTTD all day. It's a lot cheaper
05:57<dih>lets implement pb :-D
05:57<Starn>Rubidium. pretty much what i am doing
05:57<@Rubidium>and doesn't discriminate between people running it on Windows or on wine (or on reactos)
05:58<Starn>I think openTTD has won my heart over even Starcraft.
05:59<dih>yeha - people dont go irate here if they have been fraged :-P
05:59<Starn>Hmm. I am setting up an Sandbox game in openTTD. And I was wondering is there a list of usful options somewhere?
06:04*roboboy goes to fidle with his test pc
06:04*roboboy sticks NT4 on it
06:05<dih>Starn, i suggest you have a look at the openttd website, and inspect some of the links you can find
06:06<Alberth>'useful' depends on your playing style
06:07<Starn>I'm Expermenting on building the Perfect railway with no traffic jams...
06:08<planetmaker>Starn: the 'advanced settings' show you a list of 'useful' options :-)
06:08<planetmaker>just make sure that you get them all. Otherwise a cat ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg helps :-P
06:08<Starn>yea i been toyin with that planetmaker also toyin with cheats in my sandbox save :D
06:08<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r19333 /trunk/src/airport_gui.cpp: -Fix (r19328): int versus uint comparison warning fixed.
06:08<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19332 /trunk/src/ (mixer.cpp mixer.h sound.cpp): -Codechange: Simplify sound panning by using float data, and switch to sinusoidal algorithm to maintain output level.
06:09*planetmaker just found out that a sound base set is not very similar to grfs...
06:10<planetmaker>mainly the assumption that any wav file mentioned in the source is a dependency doesn't hold :S
06:11<peter1138>helvetica fails :s
06:11<planetmaker>must be caused by the direct democracy there :-P
06:12<dih><Starn> I'm Expermenting on building the Perfect railway with no traffic jams... <- now that's something nobody attempted :-P
06:13<Starn>lol i know i've seen some of them a lot of great work
06:14<Starn>my issue is i like big big big networks that are seemingly impossible to not have issues in.
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06:15<Alberth>disabling breakdowns helps a lot :p
06:18<Alberth>hmm, if you build a dedicated track for each train, you'd have no traffic jams
06:19<Starn>thats how my none sandbox game is setup direct links no junctions or anything.
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06:55<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r19334 /trunk/src/ (base_station_base.h station.cpp): -Codechange: method-call codestyle fixes, and introduction of const reference formal parameter.
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07:15<CIA-2>OpenTTD: alberth * r19335 /trunk/src/ (base_station_base.h station.cpp): -Codechange: StationRect::BeforeAddTile() returns a CommandCost.
07:20<Starn>yay i made my first large scale railroad network with no jams!
07:21<PeterT>congrats, Starn
07:22<roboboy>is there anywhere I should put a guide to running OpenTTD under DOS?
07:22<Starn>use dos box?
07:22<roboboy>would it be suitable on the wiki?
07:22<roboboy>I mean on TRUE MSDOS
07:22<Starn>yea i would say so
07:22<roboboy>it works out of the box in DOSBox
07:22<Starn>sorry i missed read question.
07:23*roboboy wonders what the best section would be
07:23<PeterT>roboboy: yes, on the wiki
07:23<roboboy>and where to link to it from
07:23<@Rubidium>roboboy: works is 'ofcourse' an overstatement
07:23<Starn>my railroad network is alot like nascar lol one one way to turn
07:23<roboboy>but it starts and is playable
07:24<Starn>sounds awesome.
07:24<Starn>would it work on modern system such as windows 7 pro 64bit?
07:24<roboboy>I had to install DOSLFN and disable MM386 or whatever it is
07:25<roboboy>I run it on there as well
07:25<Starn>alright sounds like its worth looking into.
07:25<Starn>i only have TTD and openTTD though.
07:27<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19336 /trunk/src/ (train.h train_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Move rail speed limit to its own function.
07:28<@Rubidium>roboboy: you mean long filenames now 'just' work?
07:29*peter1138 wonders how to fix bitmap fonts
07:29<peter1138>the metrics we use are only available for scalable fonts
07:30<roboboy>Long Filenames don't just work for old programs not written to use them but new programs written to use them just work
07:35<Starn>If you're to make a portable version of openTTD how would you make it not creat a folder in my documents folder?
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07:36*PeterT hugs CIA-7
07:36*CIA-7 hugs PeterT
07:36*PeterT kills CIA-7
07:36*CIA-7 dies
07:36*Starn kisses CIA-7
07:36<Starn>:( awe no kissing back lol
07:41<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19337 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Create the GroundVehicle class.
07:42<roboboy>Starn, OpenTTD uses the OS'es API to decide where my documents is so if the OS doesnt have an API for it, then it wont create it and ofcourse the devs can tell OpenTTD if a system has a my documents folder or not
07:43<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19338 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: Move the acceleration cache to GroundVehicle.
07:43<@Rubidium>oh for crying out loud... does *anyone* *ever* *read* the *readme* *before* asking it for the nth time?
07:43<Starn>dang. every system i know has this..
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07:44<PeterT>commit spree
07:44<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19339 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Move acceleration functions to GroundVehicle.
07:45<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19340 /trunk/src/ground_vehicle.hpp: -Documentation: Add a list of required functions to GroundVehicle.
07:48<Starn>i am happy my network can handle 8 trains so far with only 4 tracks in some areas.
07:50<PeterT>only 4 tracks?
07:50<PeterT>4 tracks to and back?
07:51<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19341 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs):
07:51<CIA-7>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Move GOINGUP/GOINGDOWN flags to GroundVehicle.
07:51<CIA-7>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Move GetSlopeResistance to GroundVehicle.
07:51<Starn>the least amount of tracks in southren section of map is 2 tracks and 5 stops and east and west are 4 tracks and northen hops around from 2-4 and about 100k in signels.
07:51<Starn>for every track is connected
07:52<PeterT>Do you have a screenshot?
07:52<Starn>no but i can try fitting it all into one screen i doubt this happening for it goes to the very top of map and to the very bottem.
07:52<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19342 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.hpp train.h train_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Move inclination update functions to GroundVehicle.
07:53<Starn>i can take screen shot of a couple of sections where track merges into either depot or train station for sure..
07:53<Starn>its a very basic layout.
07:54<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19343 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.cpp roadveh.h saveload/vehicle_sl.cpp):
07:54<CIA-7>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Make RoadVehicle a child class of GroundVehicle.
07:54<CIA-7>OpenTTD: -Add: Required acceleration functions at RoadVehicle.
07:55<Starn>it takes the direct line idea and throws in some turns to merge them basically.
07:56<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19344 /trunk/src/ (roadveh.h roadveh_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: RoadVehicle uses UpdateInclination instead of its own function.
07:56<Starn>i am sure nearly every one can make this.. i am still fairly new so to speak. sure i use to play TTD when it was new but still i consider my self a noob
07:57<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19345 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Realistic acceleration for road vehicles.
07:57*PeterT translates!
07:58<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19346 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Configurable slope steepness for road vehicles from 0% to 10%, default is 7%.
07:59<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19347 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Add: Vehicle GUI now shows power, weight and tractive effort for road vehicles.
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>i have seen roads with 20% inclination...
07:59<Noldo>Terkhen: congrats on the commit access
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08:01<Eddi|zuHause>i guess at this point it is too late to change the newgrf specs to split tractive effort into adhesive weight and friction coefficient?
08:02<roboboy>Rubidium, should I upload your bundle for DOS OpenTTD to a website somewhere or can I link to the link you gave me from my tutorial for the wiki?
08:03<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19348 /trunk/src/ (build_vehicle_gui.cpp settings.cpp): -Add: Allow to sort road vehicles by power and by power vs running cost at the engine preview window.
08:04<Ammler>the intro game on RC2 looks like it runs already quite a long time
08:04<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19349 /trunk/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Add: [NoAI] AIs can get the power, weight and tractive effort of a road vehicle.
08:05<Ammler>for example the buses are close
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08:06<Terkhen>thank you Noldo :)
08:06<Starn>[PeterT | tracks to and back? ] Yes sorta some turn around some don't its a gaint loop also. think nascar with the ability to turn around.
08:06-!-Yexo_ is now known as Yexo
08:07<KenjiE20>you can turn around in Nascar, only you normally end up in a pileup :P
08:07<Starn>LOL KenjiE20 true true
08:08<PeterT>Yexo here?
08:08<PeterT>Yexo: How did you change your nick on #openttd.notice?
08:08-!-LadyHawk [] has quit [Quit: Damned if I do, damned if I don't]
08:08<Yexo>register yourself with nickserv and then use identify to change your nick
08:09<PeterT>use identify?
08:09<Yexo> /msg nickserv help identify
08:09<PeterT>/msg NickServ identify PeterT <password>?
08:09<Starn>PeterT i am uploading some screenies of this basic railroad system. its been running for about 18 years with no crashes i gave up on trying to make them go one direction.
08:10<Ammler>and I have no breakdown so far
08:10<Ammler>might it be possible, that is disabled?
08:10<Starn>there is signels every 14 car train length
08:12<Starn>am i allowed to post links to image shack?
08:13<Alberth>Ammler: from the competition first post: Breakdowns will automatically be disabled, so try the game with breakdowns disabled.
08:14<Alberth>Starn: you are allowed, but it is prefered to download onto the forum
08:14<Alberth>(less annoying adds, longer availability)
08:14<Starn>well this is a one time view.. than i am removing them..
08:15<Ammler>Alberth: ok :-$
08:15<Starn>and turning my profile back to private.
08:15<Ammler>I miss the breakdown sound :-D
08:15<Starn>its for PeterT and anyone else whom wants to see my 8 trains on 2-4 tracks lol
08:15<Ammler>I never hear that in my own games...
08:15<Starn> just click next there is 5 screen shots i think.
08:16<Alberth>oh, not posting on the Here, imageshack is ok
08:16<PeterT>Oh, those types of PBS...
08:17<Starn>super simple.
08:17-!-Yexo [] has quit [Quit: bye]
08:17<Alberth>except you need to allow scripts for the site to work
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08:18<Starn>ah i use firefox and noscript addon and adblock i trust imageshack i've been using them since almost the day they started
08:18<PeterT><Rubidium> oh for crying out loud... does *anyone* *ever* *read* the *readme* *before* asking it for the nth time? <-- Who was that directed at?
08:18<Starn>not long ago i decided to make an account with them :P
08:18<Ammler>PeterT: *anyone*
08:19<Starn>I don't read the readme ;) i scan the readme and see if there is anything important to running the game :P
08:19<PeterT>Ammler: Oh, Ok
08:20<Ammler>Starn: you only need before you ask something...
08:20<PeterT>fonsinchen: You already have a crash at the alternate economy thread
08:21<Ammler>and you shouldn't answer questions which are already answered in the readme.
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08:23<CIA-7>OpenTTD: alberth * r19350 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Codechange: StationRect::BeforeAddRect() returns a CommandCost.
08:24*PeterT kicks CIA-7
08:25*PeterT eats CIA-7
08:25*CIA-7 tastes crunchy
08:25*Starn bites PeterT
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08:26*PeterT shrieks
08:28*roboboy waits for his registration email
08:30<DJNekkid>is it possible to check if the measuring unit' option is set to Metric, imperial or SI ? (action 7/9)
08:30<PeterT>Standard something
08:31<DJNekkid>from french i think
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08:33<Starn>oh.. i'll stick to american stuff.... imperial first metric secondary
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>DJNekkid: no, that is a GUI settings, newgrfs cannot check those (desync hazard)
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08:35<Eddi|zuHause>SI stands for Système Internationale (i believe)
08:35<DJNekkid>Starn: im not sure if you have tested the "nutracks", but someone pointed out that some people might want to have mph limits/texts, and not kmh..
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>France was the first nation to adapt the system during the french revolution
08:36<Starn>oh normally i MPH
08:36<roboboy>hm starting openttd results in large amounts of hard disk activity
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>Germany adapted it during the process of unification
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>steadily between 1840 and 1871
08:37<Doorslammer>The UK has an instance where it uses both types of speed measurement
08:37<Doorslammer>The main line from Heworth to Sunderland uses MPH, whilst the light rail that also uses the line is metric
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, germany was a huge mess...
08:37<Doorslammer>So I dunno how that can be solved in one
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>every german country used its own measurement system
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>and there were like 60 of these ;)
08:38<DJNekkid>always fun to watch UK cooking programs... they always say both farenheit and celcius, as well as cups/oz and mililiters, and pounds/(kilo)grams
08:39<CIA-7>OpenTTD: yexo * r19351 /trunk/src/ (base_station_base.h station.cpp station_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: use TileArea for AfterRemoveRect
08:39<Doorslammer>Gastronomic juggling
08:39<+glx>mL is weird for cooking
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>it's "funny" to translate american cooking reciepts into german... because the americans measure in cups (volume) while the germans measure in grams (weight)
08:39<+glx>hmm can't remember if it's l or L
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>it's l
08:40<+glx>anyway usual measures are in cl
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>i only see cl used for alcoholic drinks...
08:40<+glx>or in spoons
08:41<+glx>soup or coffee ;)
08:41<Ammler>how many spoons is a cup?
08:41<@Rubidium>Ammler: infinite
08:41<@Rubidium>"imagine there is no spoon"
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08:42<ccfreak2k>Teaspoons or tablespoons?
08:42<thingwath>It's quite hard to imagine infinite number of nothing.
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>glx: last time i cooked something it said "125ml oil" or "4 spoons oil" or "300ml water"
08:43<ccfreak2k>Eddi|zuHause, where do you live where oil and water are the same? :)
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: who said "same"?
08:43<+glx>not the same, look at the volume
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: the "or" is not part of the quote, obviously, as it's not in quotes
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08:44<+glx>and 4 spoons is clearly no 125ml
08:44<ccfreak2k>glx, what's worse, it doesn't even say what size of spoon.
08:44<ccfreak2k>Or if the spoon should have holes to drain out almost all of the oil before you spoon it in.
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: that's because i don't know what "Esslöffel" is translated
08:46<roboboy>hm I registered at and I havent gotten an email. its been well over 10 mins since I filled out the form
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>there are "Esslöffel" ("EL") and "Teelöffel" ("TL")
08:46<+glx>check spam box
08:46<ccfreak2k>roboboy, you remember to send the check right?
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: maybe it didn't go through your server's greylisting yet?
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08:47<roboboy>ive checked my spambox its not there
08:47<ccfreak2k><AforAnonymous> esslöffel=eating spoon
08:48<roboboy>its a standard gmail email address
08:48<ccfreak2k><AforAnonymous> teelöffel=tea spoon
08:49<roboboy>lets see if OpenTTD DOS will load OpenGFX
08:50<roboboy>ive even forced it via command line since last time i tried it wasn't happy
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08:51<Starn>roboboy i just signed up and it sent me an email instantly i use Gmail. its topic is OpenTTD Acccount Activation use your search bar and search for it
08:52<Starn>if that don't work i might suggest waiting 5 to 10 mins than asking it to resend
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09:00<roboboy>hm OpenTTD Dos doesnt like OpenGFX
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: did you check md5sum?
09:01<roboboy>I just copied a working copy from one computer to my DOS machine
09:01<roboboy>it doesn't even appear in the game options drop down
09:01<frosch123>filenames longer than 8 characters?
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09:02<planetmaker>yes :-P
09:02<+glx>the old 8.3 limitation :)
09:02<DJNekkid>btw ... another question ... is there support for CC-colors on railtypes?
09:02<frosch123>rail stuff is currently not recoloured at all
09:02<roboboy>but I have a LFN driver for DOS that OpenTTD uses to save my savegames and screenshots
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: imho it's a neat to have feature
09:03<DJNekkid>so ... i cant make for example a CC'ed 3rd rail?
09:03<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i posted a suggestion in the thread about it :)
09:04*roboboy waits for openttd /h | more to run
09:06<DJNekkid>or my "planning" tracks could be some CC-variant of the white "drag and drop" lines
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09:07<roboboy>shall I try and move OpenGFX out of the OpenGFX sub dir of DATA?
09:08<frosch123>roboboy: you could try making the filenames shorter than 8 chars (also change them in the .obg)
09:09<roboboy>will that change their md5s or do they only change if I change the actual file contents?
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>roboboy: no, md5 is pure file content
09:12*roboboy isnt in the mood for renaming all the files at the moment though
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09:16<planetmaker>hm, 6 clicks and 6 edits roboboy ;-)
09:16<planetmaker>well. Not on DOS. so 6 commands
09:17<Ammler>roboboy: you could use the ttdpatch version
09:17<roboboy>hm that would work
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09:18<roboboy>I would have to make a obg for it though, but that would be easy
09:19<roboboy>can I take a screenshot of the title screen without using print screen?
09:19<+glx>open console, type "screenshot no_con"
09:20<roboboy>im going to create some screenies for my DOS OpenTTD Guide that is a nearly finished WIP
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i need to come up with a riddle... but i have no inspiration...
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>something that keeps the women busy for 10 minutes and turns out as something obscure like "bungee jumping"...
09:28<roboboy>can someone recomend a random grf to test under DOS OpenTTD and for screenshot sake
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>wtf is this "facebook" thingy the youths nowadays is so hyped about?
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09:32<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: palms are considered "not clean enough" anymore? Or doing 'it' with palms hurts more than doing 'it' with a book?
09:36<ccfreak2k>Eddi|zuHause, what gets wetter as it dries?
09:36<@Rubidium>ccfreak2k: dry ice?
09:40<PeterT>Do you need to have admin rights to move images to a different name?
09:40<roboboy>my work is done for the jight/morning
09:40<planetmaker>night roboboy
09:40<PeterT>Can someone move to
09:41<planetmaker>[15:36] <Rubidium> ccfreak2k: dry ice? <-- you'll have a hard time to get that wet under most circumstances...
09:41<PeterT>Also, does loading *.sv1 usually cause a crash?
09:41<PeterT>Should they be reported?
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: no, yes.
09:42<OwenS>PeterT: Except when it's a TTDPatch save IIRC?
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09:42<Yexo>PeterT: what's the point of that screenshot? I don't see any difference with a normal intro menu?
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09:42<PeterT>To prove the DOS port works?
09:42<Yexo>but that screenshot is the same as from a windows build? how does that prove anything?
09:42<OwenS>PeterT: I could have easily taken said screenshot with a fullscreen Solaris build if I wanted :p
09:43<PeterT>Here is the crash report:
09:43<OwenS>(Yes, OpenTTD builds cleanly on OpenSolaris using the Sun compilers)
09:43<Yexo>PeterT: now if the screenshot included for example the dosbox window around it then it'd be proof that somebody was able to load the intro game in dosbox
09:43<PeterT>Wow, OpenTTD just crashed again when creating an emergency save
09:43<OwenS>(At least I think it used the Sun compilers :P )
09:43<PeterT>Well, I didn't make it, roboboy did
09:44<OwenS>Oh no, ./configure went ("gcc in path? Nice" and ignored my CC and CXX variables :-()
09:45<Yexo>PeterT: was that savegame a clean ttd/tto one? if so, please create a bugreport and include crash.dmp
09:45<PeterT>It was from there ^
09:45<PeterT>Ignore my response, that was when loading with TTDPatch
09:46<roboboy>unles someone gives me a build of OpenTTD that says DOS OpenTTD on the title screen, I can not prove OpenTTD DOS works on real hardware
09:46<OwenS>PeterT: Thats a TTDPatch save
09:46<PeterT>Yexo: ^
09:46<@Rubidium>roboboy: start game -> quit
09:46<OwenS>Hmm, will OpenTTD DOS run with 2MB of RAM? Cause then I'll take a picture of it on my craptop :P
09:46<roboboy>ok yeah that would work
09:47<Yexo>if you can get to the intro screen you should be able to load at least a 64x64 map
09:47<OwenS>Yexo: Wow
09:47<OwenS>Then all I need to do is transfer it across on floppies
09:48<OwenS>(And watch it run painfully slow on a 20Mhz 386-SX)
09:48<ccfreak2k>(it was a towel btw)
09:48<PeterT>Yexo: So, should I file the bug report or not?
09:48<Yexo>no, as ttdpatch savegames are not supported
09:50<PeterT>Oh, ok
09:50<OwenS>Does TTDPatch mark it's saves at all? Cause if so, you should probably display a warning :p
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10:02<Starn>ugh nothing wants to be automatic anymore
10:02<ccfreak2k>OwenS, at least you don't have to spend weeks compiling it with cc circa 1989. :)
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10:03<@orudge>[14:50:53] <OwenS> Does TTDPatch mark it's saves at all? <-- it does, indeed
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10:03<@orudge>well, plus the fact that the file format is changed quite significantly if morevehicles is used
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10:04<@orudge>roboboy: you can use something like DOSLFN or LFNDOS to get long filenames working under DOS
10:04<@orudge>DJGPP supports them
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10:04<@orudge>oh, I see, you've already mentioned that, heh
10:04<@orudge>was just reading up
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10:31<CIA-7>OpenTTD: yexo * r19352 /trunk/src/ (stdafx.h tgp.cpp): -Fix (r19332): MSVC doesn't have M_PI in math.h
10:34<OwenS>orudge: Incidentally, St Andrews are the last university on my list to get back to me >_<
10:38<CIA-7>OpenTTD: yexo * r19353 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs):
10:38<CIA-7>OpenTTD: -Codechange: use static objects for the airport statemachines instead of new/delete at the start/end of the game
10:38<CIA-7>OpenTTD: -Codechange: store the fta in AirportSpec
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11:02<CIA-7>OpenTTD: yexo * r19354 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_airport.cpp newgrf_airport.h table/airport_defaults.h): -Codechange: store the number of layouts in AirportSpec
11:07<CIA-7>OpenTTD: yexo * r19355 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: add the airport layout to build as parameter to CmdBuildAirport
11:11<planetmaker>that sounds already quite far on the way to newgrf airports :-)
11:12-!-woldemar [~osaka@] has joined #openttd
11:12<planetmaker>Starn: your remark about not quite accurate grammar is just as bad as the posting you reply to...
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11:16<CIA-7>OpenTTD: frosch * r19356 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.hpp train_cmd.cpp): -Fix: Whitespace.
11:18<Starn>i am very stressed depressed person atm.
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>then you should leave the internet...
11:18<Starn>my emotions screwing up everything even my music its sad sounding..
11:19<Starn>heh internet is keeping be stable
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11:23<CIA-7>OpenTTD: frosch * r19357 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Add 'face' member to ErrmsgWindow to simplify stuff.
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11:26<CIA-7>OpenTTD: frosch * r19358 /trunk/src/ (company_cmd.cpp misc_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#3663]: Close error messages about missing ownership when the company closes or is taken over. (parts by Alberth).
11:27*peter1138 suspects roboboy's dos guide is wrong ;p
11:27<peter1138> twice, and renaming to 8.3 shouldn't be necessary with the lfn stuff
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11:48<PeterT>Why was the Command Validation changed in trunk?
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11:56<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: to close potentially dangerous loopholes
11:56<PeterT>Why dangerous?
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: did you actually read the page you just linked to?
11:58<PeterT>I saw things like desycnes
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>it says right there "this can cause NULL pointer dereferences"
11:58<PeterT>To be honest, I have no idea what that means.
11:58<frosch123>in context of command handling it means remote crash all servers and clients
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: means a server can crash all clients
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11:59<PeterT>all servers?
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: a modified client can also crash the server
11:59<PeterT>Oh, I see
12:00<PeterT>Is there a way to get around this while still allowing patched servers?
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>yes, get the patches into trunk.
12:00<frosch123>easy, just branch off ottd. then script kiddies will crash your servers, not ours
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---Logclosed Sat Mar 06 12:16:37 2010
---Logopened Sat Mar 06 12:16:42 2010
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12:16-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 132 nicks [5 ops, 0 halfops, 3 voices, 124 normal]
12:18-!-Irssi: Join to #openttd was synced in 112 secs
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12:37*PeterT feels like he broke the strgen
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13:45<CIA-7>OpenTTD: translators * r19359 /trunk/src/lang/ (10 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-7>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-7>OpenTTD: croatian - 5 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-7>OpenTTD: esperanto - 4 changes by Ailanto
13:45<CIA-7>OpenTTD: finnish - 6 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-7>OpenTTD: french - 5 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-7>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
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14:01<DJNekkid>will TTDPATCHflag bit 16 (enginepersist) be able to detect "Vehicles never expire" ?
14:03<DJNekkid>oki :D
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14:33<PeterT>When does the nightly compile run?
14:34<ccfreak2k>I would assume: at night.
14:39<planetmaker>somewhere on Earth always is night
14:39<planetmaker>CF starts at ~20 CET
14:40<frosch123>we should turn jupiter into a second sun
14:41<planetmaker>uh... :-) That time will come
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14:41<PeterT>Doh! Just finished [14:37:05] <DorpsGek> CompileFarm: nightly (r19359) completed.
14:41<planetmaker>I just don't know anymore whether this year or 2061
14:42<frosch123>2010 :)
14:42<frosch123>but they already failed the 2001 shedule
14:42<planetmaker>yeah :-(
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14:45<Alberth>2 aliens
14:45<TrueBrain>and a cup of coffee
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14:48<TrueBrain>a basketballbat!
14:48<CIA-7>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19360 /trunk/src/engine.cpp: -Add: [NewGRF] When the tractive effort of a road vehicle is not set, use a default value of 4C.
14:48<Alberth>hai TrueBrain!
14:49<TrueBrain>they printed that in a paper here .. a basketballbat ..
14:49<TrueBrain>what do those things do?
14:50<Alberth>fly & hang upside down from a basketball basket?
14:50<frosch123>basketball for blind?
14:50<TrueBrain>I like the solutions :)
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14:58<PeterT>Realistic Road Acceleration is quite good, although the Hover Bus doesn't really reach above 156 mph
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15:03<Terkhen>that's expected, a hover bus shouldn't have rolling friction but with the current model it does
15:05<ccfreak2k>Wouldn't it have some amount of air friction?
15:05<PeterT>Terkhen: Ah
15:06<Terkhen>ccfreak2k: air drag is taken into account too
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15:32<peter1138>anyone have a surround sound system?
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15:33<peter1138>i just coded B-format ambisonics
15:34<+glx>surround in openttd?
15:35<+glx>I only have stereo
15:35<peter1138>me too o_O
15:35<+glx>and a basic one (LCD speaker)
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15:36<TrueBrain>I have a full 5.1 set :p
15:36<peter1138>anyway, i couldn't come up with a concept for 'rear' sounds
15:37<+glx>bottom of the screen ;)
15:37<peter1138>possible ;p
15:37<@Rubidium>ambient sounds?
15:37<peter1138>currently the pan position is mapped to -90° to 90°, i.e. left to right
15:38<peter1138>and altitude is just scaled
15:38<peter1138>not proper positioning, but then it's 2D...
15:39<peter1138>TrueBrain, 5.1 isn't really surround
15:39<peter1138>it's ... bullshit marketing descrete channels
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15:39<TrueBrain>nothing is really surround, that is why I never said that :)
15:39<peter1138>no, ambisonics really is surround
15:40<peter1138>you get a decoder and you tell it where your speakers are
15:40<peter1138>and it calculates how the sound you be playe
15:41<peter1138>you can do it on the 5.1 system, but they generally have 1 sub and 5 tiny speakers which don't handle low frequencies
15:41<TrueBrain>my set is SLIGHTLY more advanced
15:41<TrueBrain>either way, you asked for people with a surround sound system
15:41<TrueBrain>I have that
15:41<peter1138>it has a remote? :D
15:41<peter1138>in fact, you get quite a nice effect with just 2 speakers
15:41<TrueBrain>even THQ certifate
15:41<TrueBrain>not that it means much
15:42<peter1138>heh, more marketing :D
15:42<TrueBrain>very expensive license
15:42<TrueBrain>but, not complete bullshit
15:42<TrueBrain>just 90%
15:44<peter1138>that'll do positioning quite accurately, although height information will be lost
15:45<TrueBrain>make it rotate at a high frequency, and you are done!
15:46<peter1138>in fact, you probably know that you only have 2 ears
15:46<peter1138>unless you're bjarni or something
15:47<peter1138>you can in theory simulate all the positional queues with headphones
15:47<TrueBrain>in fact, they even do that :)
15:47<TrueBrain>not only in theory :p
15:47<peter1138>in theory, as in it may not work for everyone
15:48<peter1138>(that's my new definition :D)
15:50<TrueBrain>so hereby, all your patches are now 'in theory', fine by me :)
15:50<TrueBrain>'it may not work' holds for every electronic device
15:50<TrueBrain>well, even humans
15:50<TrueBrain>I guess it is now a strange world, with all this 'in theory' shit floating around :)
15:51<peter1138>$ svn diff | wc 582 2245 16169
15:51<peter1138>16KB :s
15:51<peter1138>most of that is the jack audio driver, mind you
15:51<TrueBrain>jack :s
15:53<peter1138><3 jack
15:53<TrueBrain>'in theory' it should work
15:53<@Rubidium>anything not pulse should be fine :)
15:53<TrueBrain>esound! :p
15:54<peter1138>jack does work, heh
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16:01<OwenS>Rubidium: So, someone else with my dislike of Pulse (Well, I also dislike ALSA :P )
16:01<PeterT>Haha, <Public-server> <Matt> but i thought its unrealistic
16:01<PeterT>Pfft, "Realism"
16:02<Prof_Frink>Reality sucks.
16:02*PeterT high fives Prof_Frink
16:03<TrueBrain>OwenS: ALSA is nice :) It allowed me to do MIDI stuff in a few lines :)
16:04<OwenS>TrueBrain: Perhaps. But it also dislikes me. And their policy for fixing it seems to be "pile incompatible crap on incompatible crap", as evidenced by the continual invention of new interfaces, of which we have now reached Pulse
16:04<OwenS>Also, the "Linux" in it's name tells enough about how many platforms it works on
16:06<peter1138> < surround cube... hmm
16:06<TrueBrain>surround is only good if it helps to look behind you
16:07<OwenS>(In other words: I shouldn't have to write a different backend for Linux from that I use on Solaris, FreeBSD, etc...)
16:07<peter1138>you don't have to
16:07<peter1138>you can use sdl, or portaudio, or openal...
16:09<peter1138>the pulseaudio api, for instance, isn't meant to be used directly
16:09<peter1138>although some have decided to do so, for some reason
16:10<OwenS>peter1138: Portaudio is the only one of those which is a decent option, but it's API is still a lowest common denominator one (For example, no way to output AC3/DTS)
16:10<peter1138>crappy format anyway
16:10<OwenS>peter1138: DTS-CA is pretty decent. And the best 5.1 you can carry over TOSLINK. And it's not sane to decompress it just for the sound card to recompress it
16:14<peter1138>fibre, more marketing crap :)
16:15<OwenS>OK, carry it over coaxial if you want. Unfortunately, my machine can't output audio over HDMI, and I don't have a HDMI receiver anyway
16:19<peter1138>i prefer my audio uncompressed
16:19<peter1138>and unencumbered by proprietory compression, at the least
16:19*peter1138 goes to play some 96kbit MP3s ;p
16:20<OwenS>Ugh. I find my minimum bitrate for MP3 is 192kb/s
16:20<OwenS>peter1138: Please come back to me when I can buy videos in an unencumbered format.
16:20<peter1138>who buys videos...
16:20*frosch123 wonders whether the watercycle pixels in ogfx sprites 4769 to 4771 are intentional
16:21<OwenS>peter1138: OK, in that case, it's still coming in MP3 or AAC. Which are encumbered. (Or Vorbis, but Vorbis sucks balls for 5.1)
16:22*peter1138 strokes his FLAC collection
16:22<OwenS>FLAC is also my preference
16:23<@Rubidium>wav + zlib! :)
16:23<Lakie>Sounds like a good idea
16:23<Lakie>high quality but compressed slioghtly
16:24<OwenS>Rubidium: Nah, WAV and BZip2. High quality, marginally compressed, and using stupid CPU :P
16:24*Lakie worked with some software needing raw wavs and they were truely huge compared to .ogg / .mp3...
16:24<peter1138>i should clarify, audio compression is no problem if it's lossless :)
16:24<peter1138>isn't lzma worse for cpu than bzip2?
16:25<@Rubidium>depends on how you look at it
16:25<OwenS>peter1138: Compressing yes. Decompressing no.
16:25<peter1138>well that's no use
16:25<OwenS>But even lzma -fast beats bzip -take5hours
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16:26<peter1138>ahh, ambdec comes with a 5.1 preset, although it does assume that your speakers are at the exact correct locations
16:26<peter1138>and the lfe channel is not used
16:26*OwenS considers making an OpenTTD patch to support .tar.xz's :P
16:26<peter1138>OwenS, haha
16:27<@Rubidium>OwenS: boring...
16:27<peter1138>better patch: custom bridge heads
16:27<OwenS>Rubidium: LZX? Then there would be no tool to make them :P
16:27<Prof_Frink>betterer patch: NewCustomBridgeHeads!
16:30<+glx>IIRC someone already has this patch :)
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16:44<peter1138>TrueBrain, but yes, i wouldn't consider actually commiting this, because a jack support in a game is pretty silly
16:45<TrueBrain>peter1138: nothing wrong with an additional audio-out
16:46*Rubidium ponders using libpng's versioning scheme
16:47<OwenS>Which is?
16:48<@Rubidium>1.4.0beta86 -> 1.4.0rc01 -> 1.4.0beta87 .. 1.4.0beta109 -> 1.4.0rc02 .. 1.4.1beta03 -> 1.4.1rc01 -> 1.4.1beta04 .. 1.4.1beta12 -> 1.4.1rc02
16:48<TrueBrain>betas between rcs? Cool :)
16:48<OwenS>And what happened to 1.40release?
16:48<OwenS>And why are we randomly incrementing the beta*?
16:49<OwenS>Use Tex' versioning scheme. Much better
16:49<@Rubidium>.. means that I skipped (a lot) of reasonable versioning increments
16:49<TrueBrain>mind the .. :p
16:49<@Rubidium>OwenS: agreed
16:50<OwenS>109 betas?!
16:50<@Rubidium>OwenS: yes
16:50<OwenS>Though in that case we need to decide who's death it becomes berfect at :p
16:50<@Rubidium>although we ofcourse have ~360 alphas between releases
16:50<OwenS>Rubidium: They're called nightlies are they not ;-)
16:51<@Rubidium>OwenS: yes
16:51<OwenS>Theres a difference between an automated may-not-even-build nightly and a presumably manually released beta release. And as betas are supposed to mainly fix bugs, libpng must be very buggy ;-)
16:52<@Rubidium>1.4.0 is out since jan 03 2010
16:52<@Rubidium>1.5.0 is already at beta11
16:53<planetmaker>quick release cycle, eh?
16:53<OwenS>planetmaker: No, 98 more betas to go :p
16:53<@Rubidium>1.4.0beta1 april 20, 2006
16:54*planetmaker withdraws the last comment
16:55<@Rubidium>1.2.0beta1 may 6, 2001
16:55<@Rubidium>although, 1.2.0 september 1, 2001
16:56<@Rubidium>which basically means 1.4's beta cycle was 3.5 longer than the 1.2 beta cycle
16:56<@Rubidium>version 1.00 [March 7, 1998]
16:57<@Rubidium>version 1.0.0 [March 8, 1998]
16:57<@Rubidium>really... what the ...
16:57<Ammler>Rubidium: you should rather skip rc too after 1.0 release
16:57<Ammler>and not introduce betas
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16:59<Eddi|zuHause>maybe that's what they call their nightlies
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16:59<+glx>[LibEMU] -Codechange: allow JIT to continue after loading a dmp ?
16:59<TrueBrain>you can't imagine a lib like libpng has so many problems
16:59<+glx>wrong window
16:59<TrueBrain>glx: wrong channel, but yes :) Well, replace dmp for crash.bin :)
17:02<OwenS>Aah, so that project did eventually become a proper project :-)
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17:03<TrueBrain>it even has players
17:03*TrueBrain hugs tneo
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17:06<Ammler>He, I reached level 3 too ;-)
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17:21<fonsinchen>Yexo: I got a crash, which I guess is due to your changes in airport code. Backtrace:
17:22<fonsinchen>Especially AT_DUMMY==255 ...
17:23<fonsinchen>Maybe I should post a bug report.
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17:51<impactor>Hello everyone
17:52<@Rubidium>hello Canada
17:52<impactor>If I place a train station in range of two iron mines, will both mines produce ore for transport?
17:53<PeterT>If they are within the station catchment, yes.
17:53<impactor>Sweet :)
17:53<impactor>I'm still trying to get the hang of the game, primarily railway systems
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>that only works for taking away cargo, though. if you deliver cargo, only one industry will get it
17:56<impactor>Alright, so it will work in this case of the two adjacent iron mines
17:57<impactor>Would this also be the place to propose certain changes to the game?
17:57<PeterT>Two adjacent primary industries (coal mines, forests, iron mine)
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18:03<planetmaker>impactor: you can always propose changes ;-)
18:04<impactor>Excellent :P
18:05<impactor>I think it would be valuable to place hotkeys for certain tools in tooltips.
18:05<planetmaker>Indeed. Until that time till they become configurable ;-)
18:06<impactor>Would it not be possible to include them even then?
18:06<planetmaker>Actually that's something translators can quite easily do themselves now
18:06<planetmaker>impactor: difficult
18:07<planetmaker>what key does open the console for you?
18:07<planetmaker>what do you use to quit the game?
18:07<planetmaker>I do use CMD+Q
18:07<planetmaker>you probably Ctrl+Q ;-)
18:07<planetmaker>just a difference of supported platforms which map codes to different keys
18:08<impactor>It says ~ in the wiki
18:08<planetmaker>and then the language settings of the OS play a role
18:08<planetmaker>Yes ~ in US keyboard layout
18:08<planetmaker>(dunno, maybe)
18:08<planetmaker>it is ^ for me
18:08<planetmaker>but it is always(?) left of 1
18:08<planetmaker>so... difficult to get it right
18:08<impactor>Yep, that's ~ for me
18:09<planetmaker>so it will be wrong for >50% of the users
18:09<+glx>it's ² for me
18:10<+glx>with russian keyboard layout it's ё
18:11<+glx>for US it's `
18:11<+glx>not ~
18:11<planetmaker>ah :-)
18:11<+glx>(for PC)
18:11<+glx>dunno about mac
18:11*planetmaker knows neither :-) - but would assume the same
18:14<impactor>Are there currently plans to make hotkeys configurable?
18:15<@Rubidium>there are people that have that as a 'plan'
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18:55<PeterT>fonsinchen: Your bug is fixed
18:55<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r19361 /trunk/src/airport.cpp: -Fix [FS#3664](r19353): crash when an airport was deleted
18:55<Yexo>thanks for the report fonsinchen :)
18:56<fonsinchen>thanks for the fix
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19:02<Zuu>Yexo: Do you think the airport bug could show an assert in ai_gui.cpp? I guess I better upload the crash report anyways.
19:04<Yexo>an assert in ai_ugi.cpp? not sure about that
19:04<Yexo>if you have a crash.cmp please upload it
19:04<Zuu>Sure, it's underway..
19:05<impactor>Well, so far this round of OpenTTD is going rather well. It looks like I might have mastered the use of one-way signals :D
19:07<Yexo>Zuu: is there an easy way to reproduce your crash?
19:08<Zuu>Haven't tried.
19:08<Zuu>For some reason clicking on "Add this task" doesn't do anything.
19:09<Zuu>Have I attached to much maybe?
19:09<@Rubidium>if you're uploading a 3+MB savegame it might not react instantly
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19:10<Zuu>Okay but the browser said "Done" and nothing happened. Now I've uploaded the log, dmp and png at least:
19:13<Yexo>Zuu: that is RC1, so it can't have anything to do with the airport chanegs
19:13<Yexo>hmm, nevermind
19:13<Yexo>why does the gamelog only say 1.0.0-RC1?
19:13<Zuu>Hmm, crash.sav is zero byte so that is maybe why FS couldn't upload it.
19:13<@Rubidium>crashing while loading savegame?
19:14<Yexo>Rubidium: no, since it's an assertion in ai_gui.cpp which cannot be triggered while loading the savegame
19:14<Zuu>If you use gamelog on the savegame then you'll see what the person who uploaded the savegame as a report on tt-forums used not me.
19:15<@Rubidium>Yexo: the screenshot isn't the right one either; don't see an AI window
19:15<Yexo>oh, true
19:15<Yexo>Zuu: can you also upload this clueless_fail.sav ?
19:16<Zuu>I could but it is the same as at
19:16<Yexo>ok, no need then
19:16<Zuu>I indended to upload it but removed it as FS didn't want to add my task.
19:17<Terkhen>good night
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19:18<Zuu>I just tried to load the savegame and there was of course no crash :-(
19:19<Zuu>I did many repeted loadings of clueless_fail.sav with some changes to the nut files in between each load. Then suddenly it asserted on one load.
19:20<Zuu>I should also say that it might be that I did not have the AIDebug window open when I clicked to load the savegame.
19:22<@Rubidium>Yexo: how 'soon' does FS#3665 autosave5 crash for you? (I guess it's a stl issue with MSVC implementation)
19:22<Fuco>When i start openttd -D, is it possible to redirect output in the ottd window to startard output? (or is that stdout?)
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19:22<Yexo>Rubidium: 8 march
19:22<Yexo>so +- 7 days after loading the savegame
19:23<Zuu>Fuco: Yes, if you transform openttd.exe to a console application.
19:23<Yexo>might have to do with msvc, but maybe not
19:23<Yexo>I'm not sure deleting an entry works ok
19:23<@Rubidium>Yexo: has been 8 march 3 times already
19:23<Zuu>There is an utility program somewhere which changes one bit somewhere in the excutable to make that change.
19:24<@Rubidium>not crashes
19:24<Yexo>but I'll take a look at that tomorrow
19:24<Fuco>mhm, ok
19:24<Fuco>gonna check it ouy
19:24<Yexo>coding after drinking alcohol is not a good idea :p
19:25<Zuu>Doesn't sound way to good condition for coding. :-)
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19:27<@Rubidium>Zuu: being 'on' tamiflu is probably much worse w.r.t. coding quality
19:30<Zuu>Fuco: If you don't find out how to convert the binary an other option is to compile your own binary and tell the build system to make a console application or just hack in writing to a file in the log function.
19:31<Fuco>well, I'm not feeling like compiling it ;( especially not under windows :D
19:32<impactor>Guh, compiling under windows.
19:32<@Rubidium>glx once made a simple tool to convert a binary to a console binary; don't know where it exactly is
19:33-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
19:33<Ammler>tt-forums Autopilot thread
19:34<+glx>on my devspace
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19:48<impactor>Hello roboboy
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20:00<OwenS>orudge: Can't the nightly database backup be backgrounded? >_<
20:01<impactor>It doesn't cost money to keep a train in a depot, right?
20:03*Ammler wonders if 2am really is the lowest usage time :-)
20:03<OwenS>I'd say it's probably ~4am :p
20:03<OwenS>~4AM TAI that is
20:04*roboboy adds a recomended settings section to his OpenTTD DOS guide
20:04<PeterT>hai roboboy
20:04<OwenS>That reminds me to add Django's TransactionMiddleware to his apps
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20:08<Ammler>is your guide "private"?
20:08<roboboy>feck Autosave on a blank 2048X2048 map on a cleron is so slow
20:08<OwenS>Ammler: No, TrueBrain was mentioning it earlier. I presume that DOS is a too short search string
20:09<Ammler>well, OpenTTD is quite redundant in that wiki :-P
20:09<Ammler>or add some redirects
20:09<OwenS> <-- Also, orphanned
20:10<roboboy>I didn't know of a suitable article to link to it from
20:10<Yexo>roboboy: ~\OpenTTD\data\ <- is that a valid path on dos? if not, just change it to C:\OpenTTD\data\ or so
20:10*roboboy pondees just rebooting his DOS machine
20:11*OwenS really ought to try a build on his craptop
20:12<PeterT>I added DOS to wiki/OS
20:12<roboboy> is the build I use
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember ~ meaning anything in DOS
20:12<OwenS>roboboy: Your machine doesn't have 2048kb of RAM ;-)
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't you simply "configure --personal-dir=C:\OpenTTD" or something?
20:12<OwenS>(And take 5 seconds to check it!)
20:13<PeterT>roboboy: The requested URL /openttd/ was not found on this server.
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: 2MB will have trouble even getting the binary into memory
20:13-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>there might be ways to get virtual memory in DOS, though
20:13<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: And then the 386-SX/20 processor will struggle running it ;-)
20:14<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: On a irreplacable hard drive?
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: with < 10 vehicles, that shouldn't be a problem :)
20:15<OwenS>(2.5" ST-506 HDs are getting *very* rare!)
20:15-!-Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>TT with few vehicles ran fine with 4MB RAM and 25MHz
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think it ran with 2MB
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>actually, i'm pretty sure it didn't...
20:16*roboboy wonders where to upload the build he uses
20:16<Ammler> <-- links to sourceforge
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: repair it...
20:17<OwenS>I presume there must be a way to make CWSDPMI support swapping though
20:17<OwenS>(Incidentally, isn't it weird how small a world it is? CWSDPMI was written by the same guy who reverse engineered the Total Annihilation HPI formats)
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue what either of these are...
20:18<OwenS>CWSDPMI = Dos Protected Mode Interface provider commonly used with DJGPP
20:18<OwenS>Total Annihilation = Best RTS game ever made :P
20:18<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: where would you link Linux to?
20:19<roboboy>well I do not recomend anyone run a 2048X2048 map under DOS on an old pc
20:19<Ammler>to my suse repo :-P
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20:19<OwenS>Ugh SuSE
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i have not actually read the page...
20:19<@SmatZ>OwenS: what DPMI version does CWSDPMI provide?
20:20<OwenS>SmatZ: 0.9. If you want 1.0, use HDPMI
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: what should be on there? links to download locations for openttd?
20:20*SmatZ will try HDPMI
20:20<Ammler>currently it links to the sourceforge files
20:20<OwenS>But NTVDM, DOSBOX and DOSEMU only provide 0.9, so it's a bit moot :p
20:20<@SmatZ>hmm was 1.0 ever widespread?
20:20<Ammler>maybe just
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: link it to
20:20<Ammler>yes :-)
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>and also say many distributions have it in their repository
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20:21<Ammler>that is already there
20:22<@SmatZ>I remember I was playing with DPMI and was disappointed my DPMI manager (whatever it was) supports just 0.9
20:22<Ammler>hmm, what happens, if a windows user clicks it?
20:22<@SmatZ>but it was long time ago :-/
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: and i would reorder the page
20:22<OwenS>SmatZ: HDPMI even includes services to run simple Windows programs...
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>first the official ports
20:22<Eddi|zuHause>then the inofficial ports
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20:23<Ammler>I need to force linux in that case
20:23<Ammler>is that possible
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20:24<Ammler>else might be better link to
20:24-!-MeCooL [mecool@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: no, don't do that...
20:25<Ammler>TrueBrain: is it possible to force linux download on ?
20:26<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: the unofficial have a bold [*]
20:26<Ammler>he, should be added to Mac
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: yes, but that * is bad...
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>it looks ugly, it's not immediately clear what it means...
20:27-!-ptr_ [] has quit [Quit: Zzzzzz]
20:27<Ammler>I agree
20:27<Ammler>and current stable has of course still official mac support
20:28-!-Chruker [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:28<Ammler>what happen to all that differnt oses
20:28<Ammler>currently only linux and windows is supported?
20:29-!-Zorn [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:29<Ammler>no *BSDs, no solaris, no OS/2 anymore ;-)
20:29<roboboy>how do I embed an image in an article on the wiki?
20:31<Ammler>just link the image
20:32<Ammler>but maybe you need to upload it
20:32<roboboy>I have
20:32<Ammler>not every wiki support external links
20:32*roboboy wonders where the best place in his guide is for a screenshot of DOS OpenTTD exiting as proof
20:33<Eddi|zuHause>linking external images is a bad idea anyway
20:33<Ammler>then it is [[Image:File.png|alt text]] as explained on the upload page ;-)
20:34<PeterT>I got it
20:34<PeterT>Also, that image still doesn't prove that it was run on DOS
20:35<PeterT>I could edit the STR and recompile, then have "an exit to dos"
20:36<fjb>Btw., OpenTTD runs flawless on FreeBSD.
20:36<OwenS>And Solaris
20:36<OwenS>Though it refuses to compile with SunCC
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: you confuse "supported" with "binaries being provided"
20:39<Ammler>yes, no binaries = no support
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>that is not entirely true...
20:39<Ammler>yes, but IMO :-)
20:40<Eddi|zuHause>"supported" means "we solve problems that occur on these systems"
20:40<Eddi|zuHause>along with a "it generally works"
20:40<fjb>Why do I need binaries when ./configure; gmake does all I need?
20:41<Eddi|zuHause>"providing binaries" is a step beyond that...
20:42*roboboy ponders seriously trying to get DJGPP working and compiling OpenTTD on DOS
20:43<PeterT>I think you've said "DOS" 100% out of your last 10 /me's
20:45<roboboy>I shall try to reduce that
20:46<PeterT>It wasn't a complaint
20:46<U1>I got ice in my beard
20:47<U1>just saying
20:47*fjb can not imagine why anybody is that fond of DOS.
20:48<OwenS>"CC: Fatal error in ld: Segmentation Fault (core dumped)" <-- Thats not good!
20:48<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, DDOS is way better!!
20:49<U1>Eddi|zuHause: not if you wanna run ottd
20:51<OwenS>U1: Hmm, but DRDOS would be :
20:54<U1>not sure it would even run on that :P
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20:56*OwenS wonders why autoconf checks for headers like "linux/ata.h" when uname returns "SunOS" :P
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>autoconf per definiton checks lots of unnecessary things...
20:58<OwenS>True. Everyone should use CMake :p
20:59<OwenS>(And nothing's more unnecessary than recursive autoconfs *cough GCC*)
21:03<DaleStan>* fjb can not imagine why anybody is that fond of DOS. <-- Because it doesn't do anything, and hence permits a properly written application to run far faster than on any other OS^H^Hprogram loader.
21:04<OwenS>DaleStan: In practice, you'll find PIO makes everything much slower than under any other OS ;-)
21:04<fjb>DaleStan: We can agree that DOS is not really an OS.
21:05<fjb>And things may run fast as long an they are happy with 640K.
21:07<DaleStan>Well, in that case, a "properly written application" obviously doesn't use PIO :p
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21:07<OwenS>DaleStan: So your app now incorporates PCI & SATA drivers to get DMA :P
21:08<OwenS>And your app becomes it's own OS
21:09<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: under DOS it was common practice that every program came with its own drivers
21:09<fjb>They have to anyway when they need more than 640k. Using RAM above that in real mode is dead slow.
21:09<Eddi|zuHause>typically sound card and graphics card drivers for games
21:09<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: I'm aware. I'm glad we don't do that any more
21:09<OwenS>fjb: Not necessarily. If you switch to unreal mode you can keep using DOS and the BIOS since they don't trample %fs and %gs
21:10<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: yes, but now you have abstraction layers that generally make it slower than hand optimised drivers to your programs needs
21:11<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: I think the bigger cause is privilege separation, i.e, firefox-shouldn't-be-able-to-hang-my-PC-overhead
21:11<fjb>Hand optimized code for modern CPUs...
21:11<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: why would DOS programs need to be run in real mode?
21:11<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Because DOS runs in real mode. If you run in protected mode, you can't use DOS, and ergo DOS was just your bootloader ;-)
21:11<fjb>Eddi|zuHause: DOS is 16bit only.
21:12<OwenS>(OK, you could switch back to real mode to call DOS *shudder*)
21:12<fjb>Switching between modes is slow again.
21:12<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: but we already established that there's nothing in DOS that is worth calling :p
21:12<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: then it's become a bare metal app ;-)
21:13<OwenS>fjb: You could get fancy and use SVM/VT and run DOS in a virtual machine for fast switches :p
21:13<fjb>So every application has to provide its own OS, as I stated above.
21:15<Eddi|zuHause>so why was DOS never ported to protected mode?
21:15<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Because protected mode brings protection with it ;-)
21:15<OwenS>Also: Nobdody wanted it :p
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21:26<Eddi|zuHause>hm... what i learned from the 2.0 thread is that there is currently no visionary milestone that warrants it being 2.0
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>unless you count "make it 3D" which nobody even wants to do...
21:29<fjb>Who cares about version numbers?
21:29<Eddi|zuHause>lots of people
21:30<Eddi|zuHause>do you realize how much the download count increased since there is a 1 before the dot?
21:30<Eddi|zuHause>and that is not even 1.0.0 final
21:35<fjb>It has easy support fop OpenGFX etc. out of the box.
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21:42<impactor>If I have a factory supplying goods to a city, and then the city stops accepting goods. How do I get the factory to stop thinking that I am taking goods from it?
21:43<Eddi|zuHause>you can't
21:43<impactor>So my rating for picking up goods will drop to 0?
21:43<impactor>Or do I need to find someplace else to take them?
21:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes, either of these ;)
21:45<impactor>I guess the next city I start delivering goods to is going to get a bunch :P
21:45<Eddi|zuHause>you can also have the city fund new office buildings
21:46<Eddi|zuHause>click on the town name
21:47<Eddi|zuHause>in the local authority window you have the option to fund advertising campaigns and stuff. if you have enough money, you can fund new buildings
21:48<Eddi|zuHause>this will increase town growth for a while
21:48<Eddi|zuHause>and you might get enough houses that accept goods again
21:48<impactor>Sounds great. Where can I find this local authority window?
21:49<Eddi|zuHause>in the town window
21:49<impactor>Thanks muchly
21:50<Eddi|zuHause>it might be wise to build roads where the town can grow
21:50<impactor>It won't do that itself? Or will it simply grow where I want it to?
21:50<Eddi|zuHause>it will build roads itself
21:51<Eddi|zuHause>but each road it builds means it could have built a house instead
21:51<impactor>I definitely prefer it building houses
21:52<Eddi|zuHause>so building the roads yourself might make the city grow slightly faster
21:56<impactor>Well, that campaign has now made it accept goods
21:57<impactor>So it's going to get a ton shortly :D
21:57<Eddi|zuHause>fine :)
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22:18<impactor>How long do these funding things last for?
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22:20<PeterT>»» 10:16:57 < PeterT> nobody talks?
22:20<PeterT>»» 10:17:24 < PeterT> whatever
22:20<PeterT>Wow, what a nooooob
22:21<Eddi|zuHause>impactor: not entirely sure, about a month maybe...
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>impactor: you should be able to see the pavement next to the roads, if most of them in the outer sections of the town disappear, means the funding stopped
22:23<impactor>Ah, thanks for the hint
22:24*roboboy added a few more things to his guide
22:25<roboboy>should I mention that the windows base base files will work?
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22:28<PeterT>Another n00b moment: »» 16:55:48 < PeterT> who here is an ottd dev
22:28<PeterT>»» 16:56:44 < PeterT> ok, dont answer me
22:28<PeterT>»» 16:56:48 -!- PeterT [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:28<PeterT>»» 16:56:57 < planetmaker> uhm. yes
22:28<PeterT>»» 16:57:10 < TinoDidriksen> Impatient young man...
22:28<PeterT>»» 16:57:24 < Nite_Owl> the lack of patience is astounding
22:28<PeterT>»» 16:57:29 < planetmaker> well. I guess he feared the answers
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22:32<PeterT>and some more nooooooooobness:
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22:42<impactor>What does building a statue of me in a city do?
22:43<PeterT>Show your ego in said town.
22:43<impactor>That's it?
22:43<impactor>Seems like a waste of $400,000 to me
22:44<PeterT>It's for those people with too much money.
22:46<roboboy>are the scripts in the scripts folder meant for MP servers mainly?
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22:48<PeterT>@ roboboy
22:49<roboboy>what are they for?
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22:52<PeterT>Anytype of scripting
22:52<PeterT>autoexec executes when opening openttd.exe
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22:54<fjb>A statue raises your ratings.
22:55<impactor>Well, the people seem to love how I take them places at the moment, so there's still no need for one right now. Thanks fjb :)
22:57<fjb>Industries may raise their production.
22:57<impactor>I can build industries in a city?
22:58<PeterT>Good night
22:59<fjb>Depends. But the industry does not have to be inside the city. Use the query tool to find out which tiles belong to a town.
23:00<fjb>And the station name also tells you the town.
23:00<fjb>Industries only raise the production if the get well served.
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23:05<impactor>A well served industry near a city will boost production for the entire city? I didn't know that.
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23:10<fjb>No. The production of the well served industry raises.
23:11<fjb>The statue in the city gives a higher rating to all stations belonging to that town.
23:12<fjb>So the industry feels better served.
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23:18<impactor>So the statue can raise the ratings of city stations, and thus indirectly raise the productivity of industries in a city?
23:18<impactor>Then I suppose it is worthwhile to build one
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23:31<fireun>I've tried manually installing the opensfx release and nightly packages, but still am told my sound set is incomplete (and no sound)
23:31<fireun>what am I doing wrong?
23:32<fireun>I follow the readme, just like for opengfx (which worked fine)
23:32<fireun>thanks in advance.
23:33<impactor>Have you tried downloading OpenSFX using OpenTTD's content manager?
23:33<fireun>there are no sound packages in the content manager
23:33<fireun>(I thought there had to be one installed manually beforehand)
23:34<impactor>Well, I guess that makes me stumped, then.
23:34*impactor cowers and points to someone else.
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23:36<fireun>yeah, seems odd
23:36<fireun>I think I have 1.0rc1
23:37<impactor>Well, you don't really need sound effects to play the game.
23:37<impactor>They're more of a luxury than anything
23:38<fireun>oh, I've been playing without
23:38<fireun>but its something I got around to seeing about fixing
23:38<fireun>it would be ... nice
23:42<fireun>thanks for trying
23:42*fireun is out of steam
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 07 00:00:53 2010