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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-07

---Logopened Sun Mar 07 00:00:53 2010
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02:44<Starn>Hello. roboboy.
02:50<roboboy>hello
02:50<roboboy>hm TUBE is an interesting game
02:50<roboboy>its a DOS racing game by BullFrog
02:51<roboboy>its freeware from what I can find
02:51<Starn>i use to love bullfrog.
02:51<roboboy>yeah
02:51<roboboy>my two fav DOS games were TT(O)(D) and theme park
02:51<roboboy>I can't find my theme park disk
02:52<Starn>i like watching things on hulu kinda got out of gaming so much
02:53<Starn>i just googled tube for the name keeeps making me remember things.
02:54<Starn>i might have the original copy laying around.
02:58<roboboy>from what I understand it was meant to be a demo piece from a perspective BullFrog employee
02:58*roboboy ponders setting up a dled copy of theme park on his DOS machine
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02:59<Starn>whats the specs on your dos machine?
02:59<roboboy>its a 433 mhz Celeron
02:59<Starn>nice nice
02:59<Starn>sounds like one of mine
03:00<roboboy>it came with win98se on it but that got moved to another machine and then promptly died a few years later
03:00<Starn>lol
03:00<roboboy>if only I could find some damn soundcard drivers for its onboard soundvard for DOS
03:01<roboboy>the hard disk 98se was on died
03:01<roboboy>that and the old power suply are the only things to have died
03:01<Starn>i got two "new" computers for free from some friends one was 95 other was 98 [no se] so my 95 turned into linux and my 98 is kinda just sitting there it has 2 or 3 harddrives.
03:01<Doorslammer>I found Theme Park rather bad for blue screen deaths or crashing
03:02<Doorslammer>Same with the old Nigel Mansell game
03:02<roboboy>I dont remember Theme Park BSODing
03:02<Doorslammer>Hmmm, maybe just kicking itself back to desktop then
03:02<Starn>hmm
03:03<roboboy>I'm glad we didnt get theme Transport or something of the TT type from BullFrog
03:03<Starn>most these games i can get running on any 32bit OS.
03:03<Doorslammer>I did have a good reliability from TTO, there was one odd problem with it though
03:03<Doorslammer>Sometimes the music would go bloody psycho for about 20 seconds then sort of carry on as if nothing happened
03:04<roboboy>well I cant run them on my lappy as its 64 bit and our 32bit xp desktop is dead due to the afformentioned 98se disk
03:04<Starn>ah
03:04<roboboy>XP stuck a few core files on it before it died and now it wont bot
03:05<Starn>i see. i managaed to get a lot of dos games running on even win 7 32bit.
03:05<roboboy>ive been trying various recovery methods over the last 2 years but nothings worked
03:05<roboboy>ive got a few new ideas ecently
03:05<Starn>i have an idea.
03:05<Starn>do you have an XP install disk?
03:05<roboboy>I remember theme park didn't like 95
03:05<roboboy>yeah
03:06<roboboy>I dont want to reinstall though im trying to repair it
03:06<Starn>try using to and use the repair function?
03:06<roboboy>thats what im currently trying
03:06<Starn>sounds good
03:06<Starn>what i would try :)
03:07<roboboy>something broke last time I tried so I will have to pull that file from my backup
03:07<roboboy>the problem is my keyboard fails in the gui part of setup so I can not enter my product key so im trying nlite
03:08<roboboy>once ive recovered the borked file ill be set to retry with my nite disk
03:08<Starn>if you have 2 harddrive in the machine running the repair should fix it by placing proper files into the correct harddrive.
03:08<roboboy>ok
03:08<Starn>it "should" do that..
03:08*roboboy wonders what DOS game he should play now
03:08<Starn>sometimes windows has the habit of not doing what it should.
03:09<roboboy>the only thing I can not get working on my DOS machine is TCP/IP
03:09<Starn>thats odd..
03:10<roboboy>then I could use it for IRC when im not playing (O)TT(D)(P)
03:10<peter1138>roboboy, get an isa soundblaster, one of the real ones
03:10<peter1138>then it'll work in dos with no problems
03:10<roboboy>ive got a soundcard somewhere
03:10<roboboy>its a matter of finding it
03:10<roboboy>it might be isa
03:10<peter1138>(i assume your dos box has isa slots...)
03:10<roboboy>it has one
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03:14<Starn>does linux still have support for old hardware dating back to 94-98 time piroid ?
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03:28*roboboy is so thankful for xcopy
03:29<planetmaker>Starn: does windoze still run on a 386?
03:29<Starn>hmm
03:29<Starn>sure it can.
03:30<peter1138>windows 7? probably not :)
03:30<planetmaker>I'm sure modern windows can't.
03:30<Starn>let me reword that
03:30<Starn>yea i was gonna mention old.
03:30<planetmaker>then you know your answer wrt linux
03:30<Noldo>well...
03:31<planetmaker>a i586 kernel will fail there
03:31<planetmaker>if you have a i386 you might be lucky - but crawlingly slow
03:31<Starn>well i am wanting a small less than 100mb linux os to do some simple tasks on an old old machine.
03:32<Starn>i think it is about 40-50mbs
03:35<roboboy>hm theme park is brokenish but then im tring to get it to work without a cd
03:35*roboboy goes to eat dinner
03:35<planetmaker>Starn: maybe look for "damn small linux" (no joke)
03:36*Starn follows roboboy drooling
03:36<Starn>lol i used damn small linux before ^^
03:36<Starn>it was on my USB stick
03:41-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
03:43<Prof_Frink>The computer my irc client is running on was made in '98
03:43<peter1138>pfft
03:43<peter1138>USB sticks are huge these days
03:43<peter1138>i had slackware installed on a 40MB hdd once
03:44<peter1138>that machine had a 5.25" floppy drive
03:44<Starn>lol indeed usb sticks are huge
03:45<peter1138>i remember that 40MB drive... we thought... how on earth are we going to fill this?
03:45<peter1138>DOS was a couple of disks...
03:45<peter1138>and you could fit several games onto a single floppy...
03:49<Starn>what was that bill gates said about just a few kb that would be more than enough and we would never need more
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04:19<Terkhen>good morning
04:21<Zuu>Who, microsoft want to push the webbrowser selection on me. To bad I don't have IE as default browser. :-)
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04:22<Zuu>Not that I feel like riskning to get annoying reminders to reboot just for that thing.
04:22<Starn>lol did they make you install IE8?
04:22<Zuu>Not sure actually.
04:23<planetmaker>Zuu: no, the EU commision forced them to do. On a penalty of several 100 million €
04:23<Starn>??
04:23<Zuu>planetmaker: forced them to install IE8?
04:23<planetmaker>no, to offer you choice
04:23<Zuu>Yea, I know the webbrowser selection was forced by the EU.
04:23<planetmaker>and not install IE8 without asking you to
04:23<planetmaker>:-)
04:23<Starn>when was this?
04:24<planetmaker>this or last year
04:24<Starn>do they provide option to remove IE!?
04:24<Zuu>It's being rolled out this next week.
04:24<Starn>if last year my system should not have IE...
04:24<planetmaker>they provide the option to not install IE in the first place
04:24<planetmaker>and it might be that in the US they don't
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04:25<Zuu>Didn't they had a special edition of XP? or was it Vista? that didn't had the media player and some other components?
04:25<Starn>i did not know windows could run with out IE they alwasy made windows crash if you forced IE off the system
04:25<planetmaker>explorer != internet explorer
04:25<planetmaker>though they're somewhat closely linked, I guess
04:25<Starn>dunno.. all my systems have came fully packed with M$ B$
04:26<Zuu>Also killing explorer with the task manager does't crash my computers. It just take away the task bar and the desktop.
04:26<Starn>exactly
04:26<Zuu>Thats hardly crashing
04:27<Starn>on winxp i think it was i found a way to remove IE and it caused BS every time you booted computer
04:27<Zuu>You just start explorer again from the task manager and you get it back again.
04:27<Starn>i end expolore all the time
04:27<Starn>i like to use 3rd party shells
04:28<Zuu>I tried one third-party start menu for XP but had to throw it away as it wasn't compatible with x-mouse.
04:28<Starn>ah
04:28<Zuu>x-mouse = microsofts name of focus follow mouse.
04:29<Starn>i like some 3rd party shells due to fact it can give me a feel of the older systems and linux
04:30<Starn>though i am rather pleased with win7...
04:30<Starn>its feel and usablity feels closer to linux for me.
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04:31<Zuu>hehe, I got a upgrade cd for 7 but haven't installed it yet as ms compatibility utility claims that turbo delphi will get into problem after upgrade. (on the net people write that you can still use it in the mode wher all different parts of the IDE has its own single window)
04:31<Starn>hmm i don't use that.
04:32<Starn>i use eclipes
04:32<Zuu>Does eclipse do Delphi?
04:32<Starn>maybe
04:32<Starn>leme check
04:32<Starn>eclipse does alot i know that for sure. just an IDE.
04:33<Starn>its an plugin based IDE aka download the plugin and it will support that language
04:35<Starn>for now i would stick to what you have.
04:35<Starn>i am having to digg to much for delphi :P
04:37<Zuu>Delphi is nice except for two problems: 1) not a lot of people use it anymore 2) not cross-platform
04:38<Starn>i've been looking for something extremely simple but powerful
04:39<Starn>i mainly know python and some languages like that.
04:39<Starn>python is great for IRC btw
04:41<Zuu>A problem with python and its alikes is that you don't compile them and thus do not get early warnings/errors on your mistakes and then have to spend a lot of time finding those bugs.
04:41<Starn>all programs i've ever made run under command line except when i was 17 i made an notepad....
04:42<Starn>i compile them alot.
04:42<Starn>plus the tools i use debugs them while coding
04:43<Starn>it normally notices any errors instantly like saying there is missing links and things rather useful i also know little java very very little C/C++ and i know some web languages.
04:44<Starn>as an kid i use to use BYOND..
04:44<Zuu>Didn't knew there was a compiler for python, but if they got one then thas good news.
04:45<Starn>yep there is
04:45<Starn>or at least it claims it is one.
04:48<Starn>i think some people here would like byond for its kinda fun to just hop in and program using s simple langaug eg for a simple basic chat its something like if i memorry is right mind you its been about 5 or 6 years. mod/verb/say(message as text) world <<"[usr] says: [message]"
04:48<Starn>i mean can you get any easier than this? if so let me know :P
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04:50<planetmaker>http://docs.python.org/library/compiler.html <-- Zuu
04:50<planetmaker>But I haven't checked it out myself so far
04:50<planetmaker>So I don't know how much "in depth" it compiles (or to what degree) and how good checking is.
04:50<Starn>?? removed in 3.0??
04:51<Starn>thes makes me not want to upgrade python...
04:51<Zuu>Sounds more like it is included in the main component/distribution package in 3.0.
04:51<Starn>ah
04:51<Starn>i just did little fast scan of site lol
04:51<Alberth>python 3.0 is not production ready yet
04:52<Alberth>for programming you should use 2.x
04:52<Zuu>Though, I could be wrong since I don't do much python. Only when applications force me to do that because thats the only or the most sane scripting language they support.
04:52<Starn>yea i still use 2.x
04:52<planetmaker>morning Alberth (and also Zuu and Starn ;-) )
04:53<Starn>morning planetmaker
04:53<Zuu>Good morning planetmaker
04:53<planetmaker>Alberth, the python page claims that 3.1 is stable.
04:54<Alberth>python itself, yes. Except you dont have many libs available, nor any tutorial-like stuff (for new users)
04:54<planetmaker>:-)
04:54<Alberth>so as long as you dont' need 'import'.... :)
04:55<Wizzleby>while python 3.1 is stable, the python folks still say it's not ready for production yet. Probably not till python 3.2
04:56<@Rubidium>sounds like KDE
04:56<Wizzleby>Hehe. I actually like KDE4 since about 4.2, so.. yeah
04:57<Wizzleby>but the few python projects I work on, we haven't really even put any solid plan as to converting to python3, waiting till it's a bit more mature
04:57<Starn>there is an program i loved more than any program in the world of programs... its for linux only. well sorta.... Amarok.
04:58<Wizzleby>Starn: amarok2 works in windows, they use the phonon vlc backend. But, not everyone likes amarok2 :)
04:58<Starn>you can use an unstable berly working version of it using KDE win.
04:59<Starn>i loved amarok 1 on ubuntu :P
04:59<Starn>tried 2 useing the kdewin installer on windows and it crashed every time i switched songs
04:59<Wizzleby>I mostly use MPD these days, when I use amarok seems like most of my time is spent generating backtraces for the devs rather than listenig to music
05:00<Starn>its been awhile since i've used linux.
05:00<Starn>i think i stopped using linux around the time amarok 2 came out.
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05:01<Wizzleby>kubuntu was a mess at that point, although granted it turned out that *ubuntu was just not my flavour of linux
05:01<Starn>by MPD are you talking about music player daemom?
05:01<Wizzleby>yeah, that is what I mean by MPD :)
05:02<Starn>now days i just use Itunes to build my libary and sometimes play my music ok most the time... and to synce my ipod.. recently i installed winamp and been using itunes to build and keep my library clean and using winamp to play
05:03<Ammler>well, those days are gone, since you can use openttd to play music lists :-)
05:03<Starn>i have over 12,000 songs... so i need something to automaticly keep things in order.
05:03<Wizzleby>mpd is in need of a good Qt/KDE frontend though
05:04<Starn>i think i got excited...
05:04<Starn>coLinux a go or no go?
05:05<Starn>http://www.colinux.org/
05:05<Wizzleby>I dunno, haven't tried it
05:05<Starn>i am highly tempted to...
05:05<Wizzleby>crazy... like KVM for windows o_O
05:06<Starn>i like VMware though
05:06<Starn>lol
05:07<Starn>though i am gonna try this and my test program will be OpenTTD
05:08<Starn>though from sounds of it i am wanting something more native like.. maybe the microsofts little attempt to be more opensource and cross platform support and making programs for linux will in the futur allow there to be no border lines in any system ^^
05:09<Wizzleby>as far as linux goes, I've taken quite a fancy to gentoo. I even maintain a portage overlay for OpenTTD betas/RCs (and currently opengfx and opensfx plus deps) till 1.0.0 rolls around and it goes in the main portage tree
05:09<Starn>sweet
05:10<Starn>this seems to much like an virtual machine :(
05:10<Wizzleby>yeah that it does, special driver software to run the kernel at ring 0
05:11<Starn>though its much smaller than most i've used i oddly took a fancy to microsofts virtual machine...
05:11<Wizzleby>VirtualPC?
05:11<Starn>yeo
05:11<Starn>yep*
05:11<Wizzleby>I tried that a couple times, only in win7 for the 'XP mode' type install though
05:11<Wizzleby>usually I use virtualbox for a VM
05:12<Starn>wow this provides a nice choice for which linux i wanna download
05:13<Starn>archlinux debian fedora gentoo deluxe ubuntu
05:13<Starn>all are smaller than 200mb download size
05:13<Starn>o.o
05:13<Starn>yet some how says they are extracted to 256mb smallest one to 4gb biggest one.. which is only 162mb download o.O
05:14<Starn>i want their compression tools!
05:14<Wizzleby>Starn: this is for colinux?
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05:14<Starn>yes
05:14<Starn>debating on getting ubuntu 7.10 or gentoo or debian..
05:14<Wizzleby>hmm... if I can have it grab gentoo, this may definitely be worth a try just for giggles at least :)
05:14<Starn>exactly what i am doing for
05:15<Starn>but i am thinking about ubuntu 7.10 just cuz i have a desk with it.. and i've used it before so i know how it should work.
05:15<Wizzleby>wrt gentoo, for a minimal install, ~200MiB is about right. Remember that in gentoo, you need to build Xorg and your WM or DE of choice
05:16<Starn>this says gentoo deluxe 108mb extraxts to 2gb
05:16<Starn>same size as ubuntu
05:16<Starn>fedora extracts to 4gb
05:16<Starn>deb is 1gb...
05:17<Wizzleby>ahh, interesting. I wonder how it sets gentoo up.
05:17<Starn>dunno i am gonna try it.
05:17<Starn>nvm i will not try it.
05:17<Starn>said it wont run on x64
05:18<Wizzleby>Ah, fail :/
05:18<Starn>i'll see if i downloaded wrong file if they even had a choice.
05:18<Wizzleby>I see only a single .exe per version on their SF page
05:19<Starn>same :(
05:19<Starn>i am gonna try cheating >.>
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05:26<Wizzleby>Speaking of maintaining current builds, is there an RSS which would indicate to me new builds available for: catcodec, grfcodec, nforenum? If not no problem, I'll write a script to check.
05:26<Starn>wish i could figur out why oTTD does not like my internet.. i can download content just fine .. lol
05:26<Starn>not sure.
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05:27<Starn>i am gonna try something fun!...
05:28<Starn>gonna try irssi for windows
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05:29<Wizzleby>hehe
05:29<Wizzleby>I like quassel as far as IRC goes. irssi always irked me
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05:31<Starn88>i've never heard of quassel.. can you provide a link?
05:32<Starn88>i am not going to like this if i can not find out how to make font bigger...
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05:35<Starn>irssi no go.. it keeps running even after closing it.
05:37<Wizzleby>http://quassel-irc.org/
05:37<Starn>thank you.. hmm like the screen shot... for windows from reading this i would want monolithic client?
05:37<Wizzleby>it can be used either monolithic like a traditional IRC client, or as a server/client system, so the core runs in the background keeping your connection open, channels logged etc, your nick and other data, then the client connects to that
05:38<Wizzleby>you could use either the monolithic, or the core+client. depends on your needs. I like core+client, cause I can close my IRC client without disconnecting
05:38<Starn>i rarely close client unless i am leaving home for a few days
05:39<Wizzleby>well, I can also use my laptop for IRC without having to start up a second session, just connect to my first :)
05:39<Wizzleby>or X can crash, as well as the client, and the core stays running and connected
05:39<Starn>right now i am on mIRC which i feel so unsafe.. feel naked..
05:40<planetmaker>Rubidium, are there (scriptable) means to find out the percentage of crash.log at FS which use OpenGFX as graphics set, possibly using | uniq with respect to the reporters?
05:40<Starn>hey this gives me an idea.
05:40<peter1138>gui irc clients? pfft
05:40<@Rubidium>planetmaker: probably not
05:40<Starn>i have multible computers right Wizzleby? would i be able to install core onto windows 98 and client on my windows 7 and connect like that?
05:40<planetmaker>I was curious and looked through bug reports manually... 28:22 in favour of OpenGFX
05:40<planetmaker>But I'm not really sure I have no doubles wrt authors
05:41<planetmaker>most probable I have, though I tried to avoid it
05:41<Wizzleby>Starn: yeah, so long as the core actually runs on win98 (not sure if it does)
05:41<Starn>peter1138i i've stripped this down to be as close to my prefered client on linux lol
05:41<Starn>sweet!
05:41<planetmaker>(back to FS 3495 = 9.1.2010)
05:41<Wizzleby>you could also have the core on a linux server, and the client on your windows :)
05:41<Starn>my win98 uses boinic
05:41<Starn>mmmm
05:41<peter1138>my 'core' is irssi
05:41<peter1138>my 'client' is ssh
05:42<Starn>irssi does not live windows :P
05:42<Starn>like*
05:42<peter1138>peter1138 does not like windows
05:42*Starn hugs peter1138
05:42<Wizzleby>eh. I use irssi as sort of a last ditch thing
05:42<Wizzleby>it's too confusing with 30 or so channels
05:42<Wizzleby>so definitely not my primary client ;)
05:42<SpComb^>hardly
05:43<Starn>holy 18mb for irc client!?
05:43<SpComb^>the GUI clients are confusing with all their weird window lists with weird long names taking up all the screen real estate
05:43<Wizzleby>SpComb^: admittedly it's a matter of preference here
05:43<Starn>really?
05:43<SpComb^>whereas irssi makes do with just one line of text
05:43<SpComb^>how much less could one ask for
05:44<Starn>mIRC has hardly any windows hogging anything up and uses tabs for multi channels
05:44<Starn>than again this is stripped down.
05:44<Starn>its mirc with polarisX heavely modified by me.
05:44<Wizzleby>I can appreciate irssi, and console apps in general. It just doesn't mesh with my normal workflow
05:45<planetmaker>Starn, then use xchat, if 18MB is too much :-) 1MB for a nice GUI
05:45<Starn>well i was refering to Wizzleby quassel being 18mb
05:45<Starn>i use to use xchat.... but it became pay to use
05:45<Wizzleby>Starn: well on windows, I bet that quassel is statically linked to qt and sqlite.. that'll up the size a bi
05:46<planetmaker>oh, does it?
05:46<peter1138>only if you're unable to find a search engine for a free build
05:46<peter1138>it is gpl after all
05:46<planetmaker>zypper install xchat did the trick here ;-)
05:46<Starn>the free builds are out of date.
05:46<planetmaker>The source isn't ;-)
05:47<Starn>lol and i do not have the C++ tools to compile it.
05:47<Starn>or the know how when it comes to C++
05:50<Starn>can irc.oftc.net use SSL?
05:50<Ammler>there is a xchat windows fork
05:51<@Rubidium>Starn: yes
05:51<@Rubidium>SSL + IPv6 works perfectly fine
05:51<Starn>i know.. which costs money Ammler.. though as people have stated there is free builds but this issue for me is they are old and do not like 64bit and do not like win7
05:51<Starn>so i can check secure connection than.
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05:52<Ammler>Starn: the "fork" is freeware
05:53<Ammler>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Irc
05:53<Starn>if your refering to Xchat 2 it does not run 100% on win 7 64bit or not for me.
05:54<Starn>which you are.
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06:02<Starn-alt>this poses an issue.. some how there became two of me... and i cant make other me leave
06:02<Ammler>ghost or regain
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06:20<Zuu>Hmm, I plan to make some libraries for common classes shared betwene PAXLink and CluelessPlus. Is "Zuu" a good prefix for those libraries or does someone has a better idea?
06:20<Zuu>Anyone else may use them if they like of course, but the main target is my own AIs.
06:23<peter1138>hmm, opengfx's brown hedges are... odd
06:30<Starn>man i've been connected to this internet radio for over 740mins
06:33<planetmaker>Zuu, usually I'd propose a prefix regarding the use...
06:34<planetmaker>they might be more universaly usable than you now think ;-)
06:34<planetmaker>peter1138, can you give me a screenshot of what you mean exactly?
06:34<Zuu>So more like Utils.Helper?
06:35<Zuu>Even though it contains functions like GetPAXCargo() :-)
06:35<planetmaker>Zuu, well... I dunno what you plan...
06:35<planetmaker>On the other hand a library named after oneself is a good boost for the ego, if others use it :-P
06:35<Zuu>hehe
06:36<frosch123>libzuu :p
06:37<Zuu>I didn't really want to use my name as a prefix but at the same time I don't want to spend much time on making the libs very universial.
06:37<frosch123>well, if it gets more popular you can still find a proper meaning for every abbreviation, e.g. zillion useless utilities
06:37<Zuu>Though, I'll probably make most libs usable without my log-system.
06:37<planetmaker>lol @ frosch123 ! I like that acronym definition ;-)
06:37<peter1138>planetmaker, http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ogfx.png
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06:38<planetmaker>peter1138, not continuous on the slopes?
06:38<peter1138>yes
06:41<planetmaker>thanks for telling, looks funny indeed...
06:42<Starn>stop making me feel blind >.>
06:42-!-OwenS [~owenshep@cpc1-stkn14-2-0-cust562.11-2.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
06:42<planetmaker>oh... frosch made a fix for sugar mine and stuff :-)
06:43<OwenS>Bah... That HDD had so better arrive tomorrow
06:43<frosch123>yeah, i managed to finish what i started a month ago :p
06:43<planetmaker>:-)
06:43<frosch123>or two?
06:46<planetmaker>hehe :-)
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06:49<peter1138>Starn, blind?
06:50<Starn>possibley.. i dont see anything in screeny...
06:50<planetmaker>red/green insufficiency?
06:50<Starn>i do need new glasses.
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06:50<planetmaker>if you know what to look for it's obvious
06:51<Starn>is it a small detial?
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06:55<planetmaker>hm... concerning base sets, always the one with the highest version should be picked, right?
06:56<planetmaker>Regardless whether they are in .../content_download/data or .../data ?
06:58<planetmaker>My OpenGFX 0.2.1 in content_download/data takes precedence over my OpenGFX in data
06:58<@Rubidium>check the version in the obg
06:58<planetmaker>(the nightly is in data)
06:58<planetmaker>yes
06:58<planetmaker>r292 vs. r320
06:58<planetmaker>and 292 is taken
07:00<@Rubidium>different shortnames?
07:00<planetmaker>yes... ogfx vs OGFX
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07:00<planetmaker>but I cannot select the other
07:01<@Rubidium>probably because they got the same name
07:01<planetmaker>http://pastebin.ca/1826834
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07:02<planetmaker>I'll try with OGFX instead of ogfx
07:02<@Rubidium>what does openttd -d9 show about the base sets?
07:03<@Rubidium>anyhow, changing the shortname is bad because then you can't update opengfx in bananas
07:03<planetmaker>ok, I'll correct that. And first I'll try what happens if it's the same
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07:05<planetmaker>changing it to OGFX didn't do the trick...
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07:08<Zuu>Hmm, most NoAI stuff is in sigular so "Utils" would become just "Util" or maybe the longer "Utility".
07:08<planetmaker>Oh... stupid me. It DOES do the trick. Sorry Rubidium
07:08<planetmaker>Got confused between the OpenSFX and OpenGFX entries ;-)
07:09<planetmaker>They looked too similar
07:09<OwenS>planetmaker: Incidentally, whats happening on the comic-style project?
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07:10<@Rubidium>planetmaker: it's wrong for OpenSFX too
07:10<planetmaker>OwenS, well... V453000 is currently producing some more houses with construction stages
07:10<OwenS>Aah
07:11<planetmaker>granted, it fell prey to finishing opengfx and then other RL stuff
07:12<planetmaker>but it's only sleeping, not dead :-)
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07:18<peter1138>brrrrrr
07:18<peter1138>coooold
07:18<@Rubidium>peter1138: I agree
07:19<TrueBrain>stop putting your computer in the freezer!
07:20<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19362 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3667] (r19270): Failure to prospect an industry should not cause a crash.
07:20<peter1138>my computer's too hot, i had to add some fans because the graphics card was glitching
07:21<peter1138>heh heh, flash openttd
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07:23<@Rubidium>for that you need some combination of OpenTTD + Mac OS X + Mac + 8bpp blitter
07:23<@Rubidium>@calc 12.5*30
07:23<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 375
07:24<@Rubidium>wow, ~400 GB of bananas downloads a month (given the stats of the last month)
07:25<Starn>remember my network yesterday? i extended it and made it more complex. and now a total of 12 trains running on at most 4 tracks at a time.
07:25<__ln__>some monkeys
07:26<planetmaker>Starn, I remember my one game where I built the single factory station... serving ~600 trains... :-P
07:26<planetmaker>and the station only had three entry lanes
07:26<OwenS>planetmaker: Still pales in comparison to the game where we had a single factory serving ~1200 trains, from 4 lanes :p
07:27<Starn>well i am not great at building tracks so managing to get 12 onto 4 tracks and no jams is an amazing task for me.
07:27<planetmaker>:-) yes, I know that it's not the biggest :-)
07:27<OwenS>You'll get it with time :-)
07:27<OwenS>(Or, if you come join us in 'coop, you'll probably get it faster shortly after your head explodes :P )
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07:28<Starn>i would join the coop but my internet crashes everytime i try to join an multiplayer game.. only happens when i click join and it starts downloading to about half way.
07:29<OwenS>:-S
07:29<Starn>yea does this for every computer on my network so i am clueless tried other modems my ISP gave me.. and direct link to modem
07:30<Starn>and the odd thing is i have no issues with p2p programs.
07:30<peter1138>i tried a netgear with sucked with openttd
07:30<planetmaker>Starn, it might still be a glitchy connection.
07:31<peter1138>oh no i didn't
07:31<peter1138>it was a linksys
07:31<@Rubidium>p2p is something completely different than OpenTTD
07:31<peter1138>the dlink and the buffalo work(ed) fine
07:31<Starn>well on forums someone suggested if p2p don't work than openttd wont
07:31<TrueBrain>not all people on the forums know what they talk about :)
07:31<Starn>i tried dlink.
07:31<planetmaker>not everyone on the forums has a clue ;-) especially how openttd's network works
07:31<@Rubidium>Starn: the forum is full of stupid people
07:32<OwenS>P2P and OpenTTD have very different operating modes
07:32<TrueBrain>3 shots, 3 scores :) The crowd goes wild!
07:32<Starn>does openTTD use modern methods ?
07:32<OwenS>P2P is likely to crash your router by creating 10k connections, OpenTTD will just create one
07:32<@Rubidium>Starn: e.g. P2P is fully TCP based, OpenTTD uses UDP for discovery
07:32<TrueBrain>Rubidium: A LIE! p2p can also be UDP :)
07:32<Starn>indeed.
07:32<OwenS>TrueBrain: You mean like UTP? :P
07:32<TrueBrain>(well, for discovery too :))
07:33<Starn>my torrent software is set to use both either one.
07:33<TrueBrain>OwenS: no, you put the UTP in your ass, and send UDP over it :p
07:33<@Rubidium>TrueBrain: can, but does it? Hmm, I guess it occasionally does as torrents sometimes seem to lock DoS my hardware
07:33<OwenS>TrueBrain: You can also send UTP over UDP over UTP. Silly overloaded in same domain TLA
07:33<Starn>ok now i know the connection method does it use same method for downloading online content?
07:34<@Rubidium>anyhow, OpenTTD sends out a short burst of UDP packets and I think a lot of hardware isn't capable of handling that gracefully
07:34<planetmaker>@ports
07:34<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
07:35<Starn>explains why i can download ai and things
07:35<@Rubidium>ofcourse the only way for us to detect that it by actually doing so and then it already crashed the hardware
07:35<OwenS>Rubidium: Why does BaNaNaS use a custom download protocol? Or does it actually just use that for looking up, and HTTP for downloads?
07:35<@Rubidium>OwenS: because a custom protocol is much simpler to parse and such
07:35<OwenS>Rubidium: Heh. I was kinda thinking "Statically link libcurl" :P
07:35<OwenS>(Or, in my case, link against QtNetwork, but I'd see why you wouldn't want to do that ;-) )
07:35<TrueBrain>why do you need curl if I can write our own http downloader in a few lines? :)
07:36<TrueBrain>much more compatible ;)
07:36<@Rubidium>OwenS: and make Windows compilation even harder?
07:36<Starn>ok in theory if i went to my routers controle panel and messed around in there with the udp settings i might get it to work or simi work?
07:36<OwenS>Rubidium: You could stick it in 3rdparty like squirrel. Or there are very lightweight network libraries
07:36<@Rubidium>OwenS: even then, HTTP downloading 'check'... now the parsing/validating of the data
07:36<@Rubidium>HTTP is purely a transport protocol
07:37<@Rubidium>you still need to code a 'protocol' on top of HTTP
07:37<OwenS>I suppose I have it easy in that all my app needs to do over HTTP is grab images and models :P
07:37<@Rubidium>nevertheless, 1.0.0 can download over HTTP from our mirrors
07:37<TrueBrain>it even has a 'protocol' over HTTP :)
07:37<TrueBrain>(the POST :p)
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07:39<OwenS>Actually, thats a lie... It also needs to implement sign-on over HTTPS
07:40<OwenS>(And then relay the response to the game server)
07:40<Starn>whats frame burst?
07:43<Starn>would portforwarding might help?
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07:47<Starn>i am about to try something i am more likely to loss internet for a few hours ...
07:47<Starn>which will suck a great deal.
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07:48<Starn>i am about to shhh my self
07:49<Starn>IT WORKEDD!!!! I AM ON AN ONLINE GAME!!!
07:51<OwenS>:)
07:51<Starn>wow i never thought about using signels like this.
07:54<peter1138>if that's an openttdcoop game, nobody does
07:54<Starn>its not... not i am aware of...
07:54<Starn>is there away to see what game i am in? lol
07:55<OwenS>You should have noticed when you joined :P
07:55<PeterT>What is the server's name?
07:55<Starn>not sure joined a random one
07:55<PeterT>Starn: Some games are actually connected to IRC, like at #OpenTTDMegaClan
07:56<planetmaker>like #openttdcoop ;-)
07:56<PeterT>Oh, I thought that one was obvious :-)
07:56<Starn>i like games like that
07:56<PeterT>#openttdcoop, #openttdcoop.dev, #coopetition
07:56<PeterT>#OpenTTDMegaClan
07:56<PeterT>#jonty
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07:59<OwenS>I am so creating an alias for killall to kill `pgrep $1`
08:00<OwenS>Actually, no. Then I'd do "pfexec killall something" and restart my box >_<
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08:04<Starn>i was in maarten1 -(1940-2010,NoAir,NoBrk,150k-GBP)
08:04<PeterT>Oh, you have 1.0.0-RC2
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08:07<starn102>crap
08:08<starn102>i clicked find servers and lost internet.
08:08<PeterT>How does that even happen?
08:08-!-Starn is now known as Guest599
08:08-!-starn102 is now known as Starn
08:08<Starn>not sure.
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08:11<peter1138>your router cannot handle all the udp packets from random sources
08:12<peter1138>but, if you say it happens whatever router/modem/etc you use, maybe you ISP can't handle it ;p
08:13<peter1138>+r
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08:15<starn102>ok it keeps disconnecting talk to you guys later
08:15<starn102>it wil lresolve it self removing power soon.
08:16<PeterT>Ok
08:16<OwenS>peter1138: must be a reallly crappy ISP...
08:16<starn102>i shall try staying on as long as possible
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08:17<Starn>so any clue on why it worked but when i clicked the find servers it did not i've seen a post about a issue alot like this but they was using laptops and wireless i am not.
08:23<Alberth>as peter1138 said, with 'find servers' you get lots of udp packets. That situation does not happen when connecting to a single server
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08:27<OwenS>Perhaps Find Servers should switch to TCP? :P
08:29<Alberth>then you get lots of relatively heavy tcp connection requests, even more traffic :)
08:29<OwenS>Alberth: The router is likely to deal with heavy TCP better
08:30*OwenS wishes ISPs would cache negative responses for less time
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08:57<andythenorth>hi hi
08:57<PeterT>Hi andythenorth
08:58<andythenorth>in the (theoretical) case that I produced a narrow gauge set featuring industrial trains (sugar cane, mining etc)....should it be implemented as trains or trams ?
08:58<andythenorth>this would be 2ft gauge kind of stuff
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08:59<frosch123>shall they be able to drive on roads?
08:59<andythenorth>street running?
08:59<frosch123>two on one road, smaller than heqs vehicles?
08:59<peter1138>trains, obviously
09:00<Ammler>railstype "road"?
09:00<andythenorth>logic says it should be trains. but tram tracks offer certain gameplay advantages...
09:01<Terkhen>hi andythenorth
09:01<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19363 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Remove use of _error_message global from TerraformTile_Track.
09:01<andythenorth>hi hi Terkhen
09:02<andythenorth>industrial tracks often don't use signals, and they don't take up much space => trams better
09:03<andythenorth>but RVs have fixed consists when built, and players expect trains to be 'trains' in the game, not 'road vehicles' => trains better
09:04<Alberth>railstype "industrial tracks"?
09:04*andythenorth ponders
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'd like trams
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>we have enough trains already...
09:10<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what about the difficulty of making up consists?
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: allow refitting to 3,7 or 11 wagons [1, 2 or 3 tiles]?
09:11<andythenorth>using 'hidden' vehicles?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>the serbian tram set did something like this
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09:12<Eddi|zuHause>i like the early cargo trams of the germanrv set, but their size/capacity ratio is mismatched, and they can't be updated after 1950
09:12<andythenorth>hmmm
09:13<andythenorth>what about entirely changing the way articulated RVs work?
09:13<andythenorth>:P
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but how do you prevent attaching one truck to another? :p
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>"dualhead" doesn't really work with road vehicles :p
09:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ummm one moment
09:14<andythenorth>http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/2010/03/more-magnaload-memories-with-s.html
09:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what can / can't be attached is up to the newgrf coder, same as for trains....
09:15<andythenorth>?
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, but the difficulty is that the default vehicles shouldn't be able to attach anything
09:17<andythenorth>hmmm
09:17<andythenorth>another cunning plan foiled :D
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>what i mean: with trains you default to "can attach anything" and the callback returns to forbid something
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09:19<Eddi|zuHause>and with road vehicles you default to "can't attach anything" and the callback returns to allow something
09:19<andythenorth>that would work yes
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>next difficulty is you need "wagons" that can't leave the depot on their own
09:20<andythenorth>flag?
09:20<andythenorth>or 0hp?
09:20*andythenorth thinks perhaps life is too short for anyone to patch for this idea :)
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09:22<andythenorth>I have a serious suggestion for the silly '2.0' thread though
09:23<PeterT>What is that?
09:23<andythenorth>*seriously* improved route management
09:23<andythenorth>new rail types / road types + new airports + some vehicle gui tweaks
09:23<Prof_Frink>NewThings!
09:23<OwenS>andythenorth: Get coding ;-)
09:23<andythenorth>OwenS: how do you know I'm not?
09:24<OwenS>I don't.
09:24<OwenS>(Other than the "generally you're probably not")
09:24<andythenorth>for the avoidance of doubt....I'm not
09:24<andythenorth>but rail types and new airports are work in progress
09:24<andythenorth>(by others)
09:25<OwenS>Also: People who request so much at once generally aren't ;-)
09:25<De_Ghosty>lol
09:25<andythenorth>not a request - these are being worked on. I wonder if when (if?) they're done, that's "2.0"
09:25<De_Ghosty>that thing the truck is carrying looks like a distiller / oil cracker
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09:26<OwenS>De_Ghosty: Oil crackers and distillers look quite difference. Perhaps you're thinking Fractionating Collumn?
09:26<Ammler>andythenorth: I would rather guess 1.1
09:27<Eoin>tbh
09:27<Eoin>id love Motorways
09:27<Eoin>didnt someone draw some motorway tiles, but it didnt go any further/
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>there's more to motorways than simply a new road type
09:27<OwenS>For a start, support for two tile wide networks I'd presume
09:27<De_Ghosty>no it could be
09:27<Ammler>trails or so..
09:27<De_Ghosty>a column for anything
09:28<De_Ghosty>it's only a piece
09:28<De_Ghosty>we can't tell
09:28<De_Ghosty>:o
09:28<OwenS>De_Ghosty: Yes, but cracking tends to occur in pressure vessels, which physics says to make spherical for maximum strength
09:28<Ammler>the highway screen was a replacement of tram tracks, iirc
09:29<De_Ghosty>cylindrical is strong too
09:29-!-ajmiles2 [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
09:29<De_Ghosty>anyawasy
09:29<De_Ghosty>let's just say we're both right
09:29<De_Ghosty>:d
09:30<peter1138>newpikkarelease!
09:31<andythenorth>ooh
09:31<@Rubidium>newbug!
09:31*OwenS wonders why Django says I don't have permission to do anything... when I am a superuser...
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>two big problems with motorways: 1) you need more advanced passing patterns for efficient use of two lanes in one direction, 2) you need multi-tile-objects for onramps and smoother curves
09:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I could live without those
09:32<andythenorth>if road types becomes possible, I'll probably do motorways and 'dirt roads'
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>they are useless without those...
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>build one way roads and make their graphics more fancy
09:33<Ammler>well, at least overtaking in curves is needed
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. don't paint arrows on the roads but make them road side beautifications...
09:33<peter1138>oh, the helicopter sound
09:33<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I would think motorways are exactly that. Plus different speed limits, and some vehicles not allowed on them
09:34<andythenorth>and make them expensive to build
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: motorways are also "towns don't grow along them and can't build crossings any place they like"
09:34-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:34<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: And the ability to do that without hacks like building them on foundations ;-)
09:35<andythenorth>prevent overbuilding crossings with a cb?
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09:35<andythenorth>dunno how to prevent towns growing along them
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09:35<Eddi|zuHause>and for anything remotely speedy you need smoother curves
09:36<andythenorth>but that's never going to happen right?
09:36*frosch123 ponders coding auto-disable-autosave-for-silly-usersupplied-huge-savegames
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09:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's not impossible... for example ship-locks are already existing multi-tile objects
09:37<andythenorth>would the RV pathfinder freak on diagonal stretches of road (| –) ? we have the sprites...
09:37<andythenorth>vehicle sprites that is
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>the pathfinder would be the easiest thing to extend
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>more problematic are the used map bits and the road movement patterns [need more flexible state machines a la newgrf airports]
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>and the state machines of airports are currently unable to handle articulated vehicles
09:39<peter1138>just convince a friendly programmer to try it
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09:40<Yexo><Eddi|zuHause> and the state machines of airports are currently unable to handle articulated vehicles <- that is indeed a problem, do you have any suggestions?
09:42<Ammler>group articulated vehicle as single as soon they enter it.
09:43<Yexo>group? you mean just use the first part and let the rest not bend or so?
09:43<Ammler>yes, something like that
09:45<andythenorth>should I even ask why road types need more map bits than rail types (looking at docs)
09:45<andythenorth>?
09:45<andythenorth>sorry not types, just 'road' and 'rail'
09:45<Yexo>one road tile can have multiple owners
09:46<andythenorth>ah
09:46<Yexo>1 owner for the road (=1st road type), 1 for the tram (=2nd road type) and 1 for a drive-through station
09:46<andythenorth>thanks
09:46<OwenS>Plus 4 bits for tram & for road half-tiles I guess
09:46<OwenS>(4 bits each)
09:47<Yexo>yes
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09:48<andythenorth>would diagonal roads add much? It is a classic isometric grid game....perhaps we'd lose something by adding them?
09:48<_newage_>yeah
09:48<_newage_>I agree
09:49<andythenorth>plus all the stuff with town buildings gets more complicated...
09:49<andythenorth>the game is the game, right?
09:49<andythenorth>except when we change it :o
09:49<_newage_>make the 32bpp possible then ottd will appeal more people
09:49*andythenorth doesn't discuss 32bpp
09:49<_newage_>ok xD
09:49<peter1138>32bpp is possible, heh
09:49<Yexo>andythenorth: if diagonal stretches were added to the existing roads (so keep all roadbits as they are not and add some) you'd need 4 bits for the 4 diagonal parts
09:49<Yexo>* 2 because you also need them for trams
09:50<_newage_>I mean the project, no the techical issue
09:50<Yexo>_newage_: 32bpp has been supported by openttd for years
09:50<andythenorth>Yexo: how many bits are free? I count 8 in m4
09:51<Yexo>those 8 + 1 bit in m6 and 1 bit in m7
09:51<Yexo>that is, if landscape_grid.html is up to daet
09:52<@Rubidium>those 8 bits are more-or-less reserved for newroads
09:52<peter1138>wasn't there space for a 3rd road type on a tile?
09:52<@Rubidium>peter1138: yes, was
09:52<Alberth>_newage_: some people are needed to draw the graphics
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09:52<peter1138>ah yeah, 4 bits for road type ids
09:52<peter1138>(each)
09:54<andythenorth>so diagonal => no map space?
09:54<Yexo>indeed
09:55<andythenorth>ok
09:55<andythenorth>I kind of prefer that
09:55<andythenorth>limitations are good
09:55<OwenS>andythenorth: lies :p
09:55<andythenorth>OwenS: which bit is lies :)
09:55<andythenorth>?
09:57<OwenS>andythenorth: limitations being good.
09:57*andythenorth disagrees :P
09:57<andythenorth>no diagonal roads means no-one has to draw them, code them, make the pathfinder work with them, make towns work with them, modify the GUI :)
09:58<andythenorth>all of which means that we can get on with making road types without diagonals
09:58<andythenorth>so road types might ship sooner :)
09:58<andythenorth>or not
09:59<peter1138>imho, diagonal rails only work because you can only fit 1 train on a (non-diagonal) rail tile
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10:00<Zuu>no diagonal roads also means noone has to update their AIs to support it. :-)
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10:00<andythenorth>plus very importantly, Lego town road baseplates did not come in a diagonal version
10:00<peter1138>quite
10:01<andythenorth>http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?S=9360-1
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10:10<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r19364 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#3668]: Implement custom sound effect for helicopter take-off.
10:11<Terkhen>diagonal roads sounds like a lot of work for a relatively small benefit
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i think multi-tile curves are a better approach than diagonal roads
10:13<peter1138>road tiles with custom 'routing'
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes
10:13<peter1138>(and rail types)
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>with or without station
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10:14<Alberth>he, that would fit nicely in my idea of letting go of a single fixed plane of tiles
10:14<Starn>hello. my internet is fully fixed. it was weird i went to restroom and came back and my computer was off when i did not tell it to.
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10:15<SpComb^>rootkit'd
10:15<Alberth>ie have tiles for the surface, and for each piece of track/road.
10:15<Starn>probably.. been doing that since i got windows 7.
10:16<Alberth>you even paid for the rootkit? :p
10:16<Starn>no its from student thing.
10:16<peter1138>so does your internet connection remain 'broken' quite some time after the server browse issue?
10:16<Starn>any thing by microsoft free to any student to this collage
10:16<Starn>yes
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10:17<Alberth>Starn: yeah, I know the idea
10:17<peter1138>then it sounds like all the UDP is triggering something at your ISP, maybe DoS protection or something
10:17<Starn>hey whats another game that used UDP connections?
10:18<Starn>my ISP is only ISP that is faster than cable that is offered in my local area.. and is also almost the only one that is used... ATT
10:19*Alberth thinks a reliable connection is more interesting than speed
10:19<Starn>well with Cable i cant even play games online
10:20<Starn>i prefer a fast internet that is also cheaper that allowes me to play the games i have payed for and most other games openTTD is the first game i've had any issues with
10:20<Starn>and i use to have 72 games installed on this exact system
10:21<Starn>Could programs like TeamSpeak or Ventrilio or even Firefox causes this issue?
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10:25<andythenorth>multi-tile curves couldn't have junctions or crossings by other types of route, right?
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>unless the other type of route is also builtin
10:26<Starn>i guess i am gonna go back to tweaking with my sound system and play with the amp and speakers and make them sound better its nice having 12" speakers and 20" speakers connected to a PC.
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>i was thinking about a way, if you have e.g. a tram station, you could allow certain road bits to be built, but i'm not sure how that should work
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>same way you could allow building roads or rails through an industry
10:28<andythenorth>how about building curved stations? It seems related to this
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10:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's a special case...
10:29<andythenorth>and these curves - they would only make use of the existing 8 sprite directions for vehicles?
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>most immediate use would be turning loops for trams
10:34<Zuu>Has there been a "crash without crash message" fix for the last nightly not related to airports? I'll got repeted such crashes and will make a build in VS Studio to run with the debuger.
10:36<Zuu>The prospect industry crash could it happen without a user treggering it?
10:38<Alberth>hmm, possibly. I don't know how the game creates a new industry
10:38-!-ptr_ [~peter@c213-89-142-224.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Quit: ptr_]
10:39<Zuu>Depends on if the game uses the prospecting algorithm or not I guess.
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10:39<Alberth>probably it does, how else would it find a place for the industry?
10:40<Zuu>Yep, that sounds resonable.
10:40<Alberth>the question is, does it use the same code. I suspect it does, but do not know that precisely
10:41<Alberth>but the problem is fixed in r19362
10:41<Zuu>Either if I'm able to reproduce my crashes or not I need a new build to continue debugging my new grade separated railway crossing code in CluelessPlus.
10:42<Zuu>(if I was not clear enough, I'm building a new build not asking for someone to do it)
10:43<Zuu>I'm trying to make CluelessPlus detect if someone builds rail over its roads and make a bridge instead.
10:43<Starn>thats an good idea.
10:44<Zuu>People who try to demolish AI vehicles will get mad XD
10:44*Alberth ponders about ways to abuse that :p
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: make it impossible to build bridge heads around the rail ;)
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10:45<Eddi|zuHause>we urgently need custom bridge heads for roads...
10:45<Alberth>yeah, I was thinking that too, lay a rail every other tile for the entire length of the road :)
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10:45<Zuu>It does check the slope-ness of the ground before removing the road. Though I realize it does not check for bridges over the new bridge heads.
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>town roads that it is not allowed to remove...
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>or other people's roads
10:46<Zuu>It only does it if it owns the road.
10:47<Alberth>good idea Zuu, lay a bridge over the road first
10:47<planetmaker>Zuu, that's a battle which is hard to find. A player who wants to be mean can be mean
10:48<planetmaker>s/find/fight/
10:48<Zuu>planetmaker: Indeed. It was not ment to be a battle against that behavior, rather against those who aren't kind enough to make railway bridge crossings.
10:49<planetmaker>true, that happens :-)
10:49<Zuu>Only a few AIs does that and I'm sure there are players who don't mind if they make railway crossings over AI roads.
10:50*planetmaker doesn't mind always either. ;-)
10:50*planetmaker also builds road bridges over other AIs / peoples tracks, if I use the road
10:50<Zuu>That last version of CluelessPlus already does.
10:51<planetmaker>nice :-)
10:51<Zuu>But if you had the road there first it can be a good idea to at least detect when your vehicles get hit by a train and do something against the situation.
10:51<planetmaker>true. Only when an accident happens or how do you trigger?
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: note that if there is one route with a level crossing, and another route with a bridge, vehicles will prefer the bridge
10:52<Zuu>It would probably be when an accident happens or when it for another reason scan the road for problems. Eg. if the profit quickly goes down on a road link it will see if the link is broken.
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>the detour can be set in the yapf penalties
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10:54<Eddi|zuHause>"Hootch _is_ crazy" :p
10:55<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19365 /trunk/src/ (rail.h rail_cmd.cpp signal.cpp vehicle.cpp vehicle_func.h): -Codechange: Move EnsureNoTrainOnTrackProc() to src/vehicle.cpp.
10:55<Zuu>Eddi: Thanks, I'll make some tests with that and possible fall back to building a bridge side by side with the road if it has problems to remove the old road first.
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11:10<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19366 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Codechange: Move setting of _error_message from the callback check routine to the caller.
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11:41<Starn>hello all.
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11:56<PeterT>Hi Starn, better connection now?
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11:57<Starn>yea. also it stays like this so long as i don't trying playing openTTD online well.. at least finding servers lol only game or program i've seen where i have this issue.
11:57<planetmaker>he gave the connection properties to fonsinchen obviously :-P
11:59<fonsinchen>Uh, did I do something wrong? I have a new IRC client ...
11:59<fonsinchen>sorry for repeatedly connecting
11:59<Starn>so what client ya using?
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>/ctcp <nick> version
12:00<fonsinchen>konversation now, pidgin before. Pidgin doesn't support auto-identification and trashed my jaber-account
12:00<fonsinchen>so it had to be removed.
12:00<Starn>ah i see i liked konversation
12:02<PeterT>fonsinchen: It's fine
12:02<PeterT>fonsinchen: Glad that you're joining more than one channel now :-)
12:03<fonsinchen>Yeah, maybe I can encourage them to give cargodist another try ...
12:04<KenjiE20>heh, pidgin's IRC isn't really supposed to be used :P
12:04<fonsinchen>It's OK if you don't expect it to identify
12:04<KenjiE20>or use a lot of channels
12:04<PeterT>fonsinchen: +1 to that
12:04<fonsinchen>I was using 3 channels at times
12:05<PeterT>fonsinchen: about giving cargodist another try
12:14<Starn>is there away to connect to online games directly via console or something?
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12:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes
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12:20<Starn>is how on the wiki?
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>./openttd -h
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>" -n [ip:port#company]= Start networkgame"
12:21<PeterT>Starn: connect ip:port
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12:23<Starn>sweet console opens up like every other game ^^
12:24<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19367 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_abstractlist.cpp: -Fix [FS#3665]: List valuator could cause invalid iterators.
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12:26<Starn>now i shall look for a list of servers so i can connect directly ^^ should i use version 0.7 or 1.0RC2?
12:28<Yexo>depends on the servers you want to join
12:29<PeterT>ps.openttdcoop.org:3979
12:29<Starn>the coop ones right now lol
12:33*planetmaker waits to see someone with a stable or testing version trying to connect to our servers :-P
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12:38<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19368 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_abstractlist.cpp: -Codechange: Return early in AIAbstractList::SetValue(), if the value is not modified.
12:42-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbc0408.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>Starn: you can look up the servers on servers.openttd.org
12:45<Starn>k. what revision does coop use? lol
12:47<Starn>nvm
12:48-!-Timmaexx [~Germany@port-92-192-36-74.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
12:48<PeterT>Starn: channel #openttdcoop, then type !revision
12:48<PeterT>or !dl <system>
12:49<Starn>is 19253 nightly?
12:50<PeterT>Yes
12:50<@Rubidium>it's an old nightly
12:51<Starn>so would a newer nightly work? for 1.0RC2 wont connect..
12:51<@Rubidium>no, you need the exact version
12:51<OwenS>Starn: Join #openttdcoop, then !dl win32 (or whatever platform you're on)
12:51<Starn>man i already have 4 copys installed ... lol
12:52<Starn>so for me !dl win64?
12:52<OwenS>I presume so
12:52<Starn>k cuz i use 64bit,
12:52<PeterT>Yes
12:52<PeterT>Starn: Also type !grf
12:52<PeterT>and download those grfs
12:58<Starn>hmm coop might not be for me i suck at planning lol
12:59<PeterT>You don't have to plan if you dont' want to
13:00<PeterT>you can just vote for others' plans
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13:08<Zuu>Lol, had to comment out the code that bridges rail in the pathfinder in order to test the code that react on crashed road vehicles. :-D
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13:19<Zuu>Is it a feature that AIRoad.RemoveRoad succeds even if there is a roadbit on a rail that can't be removed in the middle?
13:20<Zuu>Notice same behaviour is true for players that it removes the road also after the rail.
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>probably not
13:24-!-fjb [~frank@p5485C513.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:24<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19369 /trunk/src/ (rail_cmd.cpp signal.cpp vehicle.cpp vehicle_func.h): -Codechange: EnsureNoTrainOnTrackBits() returns a CommandCost now.
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>"This desk is too small for two cats."
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>*western movie showdown music playing*
13:29<PeterT>Meeeeeeeeooooooowwww!
13:30<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19370 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: EnsureNoTrainOnTrack() returns a CommandCost.
13:31<Alberth>you should buy a bigger desk :)
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13:45<Eddi|zuHause>they look like they're on opposite hills with a valley inbetween, watching each other...
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19371 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: catalan - 5 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: hungarian - 14 changes by alyr
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: italian - 6 changes by lorenzodv
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13:49<Zuu>Oh, a reproduceable crash. :-) Now thats nice. Something goes bad in AIList.
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13:50<Alberth>you mean this fix? r19367 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_abstractlist.cpp: -Fix [FS#3665]: List valuator could cause invalid iterators.
13:50<Zuu>Possible, since I run 19364.
13:51<Zuu>The call stack shows that AIAbstractList called std::_Tree that then crashed.
13:51<Yexo>most likely that fix then
13:52<Alberth>yeah, line 102 or 103
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13:52<Zuu>Alberth: Yep.
13:52<Zuu>I'll better svn up then.
13:52<Alberth>I just tell you, I didn't fix it
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13:54<Zuu>Well, it sounds like it is the same bug and before producing a test case it is easier to update and see if its the same bug both for me and for you.
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14:00<Alberth>true
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14:03<frosch123>why do all ais suddenly mess with the list iterator?
14:05-!-ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:06<OwenS>frosch123: huh?
14:06-!-LA [~Madis@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
14:07<Zuu>Or rather, why suddenly did we get this problem I suppose.
14:07<frosch123>the recent ai bugs have been present for a year or so?
14:07<Alberth>it seems to be a consistent pattern. As soon as you get a bug report about something, there is a big chance you'll get another one very soon. I have seen this happening in several projects
14:08<Zuu>My new r19371 build do not crash at the same savegame that crashed my old build.
14:08<frosch123>anyway, zuu, if you encountered today's crash you likely used the list iterator (hasnext, isend, next) after a valuator call
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14:08<Eddi|zuHause>it's been the same in scientifical development over the last couple hundred years
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>one discovery is almost always made independently at two different places
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>because "the time is right"
14:09<OwenS>Or: They both build upon the same preceding work
14:09<LA>or one just steals other's work and claims it as his own :D
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>that certainly happens as well
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>but 300 years ago they didn't really have any internet
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>so the russians knowing what was going on in britain wasn't all that common...
14:11<LA>also, wen talking about bug reports, why would anyone steal a bug report and claim it as his own
14:11<LA>:D
14:11<LA>KGB, well.. 300 years ago, yees... BUT KGB
14:11<LA>when**
14:11<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Scientific discoveries still spread, just slower
14:12<LA>you know it kinda sucks that all the major fundamental discoveries were made either in renaiscance or just after it :D
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: i don't understand what you mean by this
14:13<LA>now every scientist has to be very specific, can't be omniscientist, like da Vinci anymore
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>once again proof that the english language is very ambiguous
14:13<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Most of the world still knew what happened elsewhere, it just spread slower. And pretty much everyone knew what was happening in Britain as it was the world trade hub
14:13<LA>I think it's spread, as it past
14:13<LA>in*
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>the same sentence in german would likely have been much more clear
14:13<Alberth>LA: big discoveries are also done today, but it takes a few decades to recognize them as such
14:14<LA>well, yes, but they are very specific
14:14<LA>not fundamental
14:14<OwenS>LA: Was quantum mechanics not fundamental?
14:14<OwenS>Or Relativity?
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>fundamental discoveries happen as frequently as before...
14:14<Alberth>CERN experiments are quite fundamental ;)
14:15*OwenS still prefers ITER though
14:15<Alberth>or discoveries done in space, but you should another member of this channel about that :)
14:15<Alberth>+ask
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>discovering that pluto is not a planet is fairly fundamental ;)
14:16<OwenS>Or rather Iter, because when people ask what "ITER" means and find it means "International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor", they get scared)
14:16<Alberth>as are discoveries of planets at other solar systems
14:17<LA>poor pluto :(
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>well, "discoveries" might be a little high word for those...
14:17<peter1138>also my parsnips are tasty
14:17<LA>http://www.mathiaspedersen.com/uploads/pics/poor-pluto.jpg
14:17<Alberth>OwenS: the nuclear fusion thingie? yeah, it would be great if that works
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: they wanted to be done by 2050
14:18<OwenS>Alberth: Well, the science says it should work. A bit of refinement needed, maybe, but it should finally generate power
14:18<Alberth>hmm, 2050 :(
14:18<OwenS>Were expecting DEMO to come online and generate power in ~2030
14:18<LA>nuclear fusion does work and has been done in labs, but it currently gives about the same amount of energy out as it gives in.. Cold fusion could be cool tho
14:18<LA>takes in*
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>LA: neptune is cool in that picture ;)
14:19<LA>well that ain't my picture :D
14:19<OwenS>The gas giants look too solid...
14:19<frosch123>yeah, that guy is always somewhat drunken
14:19<OwenS>(Incidentally, I should hopefully be leaving university with a MPhys around the time ITER comes online :P )
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14:20<@Rubidium>nuclear fusion works pretty well for a long time already, only gaining power from it isn't that efficient :)
14:21<OwenS>Rubidium: Well, it must be admitted stars have been doing it for ~6 billion years
14:21<frosch123>solar panels are not that bad anymore
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>efficiency and keeping the chain reaction running for longer times are the current problems
14:21<frosch123>but we should install some mirror at the other side
14:22<@Rubidium>frosch123: that's called "the moon"
14:22<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: I was under the impression the reaction is stable, but making the reaction chamber not spall was an issue
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, let's cover the moon with solar panels, and send a microwave beam to earth
14:22<@Rubidium>or one needs to place a mirrors at L2 and L4/L5
14:22<OwenS>Rubidium: Earth-Moon or Earth-Sun Ls?
14:23<@Rubidium>OwenS: earth-sun
14:24<OwenS>Meh... just build a Dyson Sphere :p
14:24<@Rubidium>if you place them at earth-moon's Ls you would need too much mirror movement I think
14:25<@Rubidium>not to mention that the moon isn't always at the 'dark' side
14:25<LA>well then just install hovering solar panels :D, they get the hovering energy from electricity they produce
14:25<LA>:P
14:26<@Rubidium>LA: actually a good idea
14:26<@Rubidium>solar sails might do the trick
14:26<@Rubidium>especially with concentrating sunlight
14:27<LA>the problem is though, if it's beamed to Earth, what happens if something fails at the receiving end or when the beam is misplaced.. into a major city perhaps
14:28<LA>lot's of light
14:28<OwenS>LA: Beam it to a site floating on an ocean? Or in a big desert?
14:29<LA>desert then rather, as it'll just start evaporating water
14:29<@Rubidium>actually, transport of electricity is the major problem why we can't build big solar plants in the Sahara to power Europe
14:30<OwenS>It's very true. Conductive losses suck
14:30<LA>On the other hand, the African countries COULD build them to power themselves
14:30<OwenS>During the day ;-)
14:30<Alberth>just cool it down to a few K, and we have super conductivity :p
14:30<LA>store energy for the night ;)
14:31<OwenS>LA: Where?
14:31<Alberth>in the alps
14:31<@Rubidium>OwenS: Luxembourgh!
14:31<LA>huge batteries :D
14:31<Alberth>water and such
14:31<OwenS>LA: OK, so we cover half of africa in batteries which need replacing every year and which themselves are toxic
14:31<LA>yuss
14:31<@Rubidium>http://www.luxembourgpictures.com/power.html
14:32<LA>let's use Atlantic as a battery, who cares about the fish there
14:32<OwenS>Alberth: As for pumped storage... need a big lake. Not that many of those. Also: Cause earthquakes
14:32<OwenS>LA: Me! :P
14:33<Hirundo>Pumping is still more efficient than any battery IIRC
14:33<LA>alright, then someone will invite you to swim someday in Atlantic.. that's the time when we'll turn it on :D
14:33<OwenS>Hirundo: Well, the pumps tend to last a lot longer, but the method consumes more energy
14:33<Hirundo>Sentences that start with *someone will* tend to never happen :)
14:34<LA>grr.. fine, I will
14:34<LA>:D
14:34<@Rubidium>someone will join this channel
14:34<@Rubidium>someone will leave this channel
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14:35<LA>see
14:35<planetmaker>oh... an LA
14:35<LA>ofck
14:35*LA hides
14:35<LA>hai plantbaker
14:36<LA>hmm.. I probably *should* go to sleep or *should* do my homework :S
14:37<OwenS>LA: You probably should, but will you?
14:38<LA>don't know
14:38<@Rubidium>LA: is it English homework? If so, learn the word procrastinate
14:38<LA>how's homework in German?
14:39<LA>it's German homework
14:39<Zuu>Oh, running trains without signals in a loop with break down on is not a good idea :-)
14:39<LA>hah
14:40<LA>I will keine Hausaufgaben tun..
14:40<LA>I think it's the correct word :D
14:40<LA>or Hausarbeit
14:41<__ln__>*ich
14:41<LA>hahah
14:41<LA>yes, Ich
14:41<LA>:D
14:41<__ln__>and i think the verb would be "machen" with Hausaufgaben, but not sure.
14:41<LA>perhaps
14:42<Coco-Banana-Man>either machen or erledigen
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>"Hausarbeit" and "Hausaufgaben" have very different connotations
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14:45<planetmaker>Rubidium: LA: Then you probably want to learn the word "faulenzen" ;-)
14:45<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> actually, transport of electricity is the major problem why we can't build big solar plants in the Sahara to power Europe <-- i thought they started that project recently
14:45<LA>is the faul also some prefix?
14:46<LA>and then it goes separate from the verb in some condition :o
14:46<planetmaker>it's not in this case
14:46<planetmaker>Ich habe heute gefaulenzt
14:46<planetmaker>(I was (bloody) lazy today)
14:47<@Rubidium>not Aufschieben?
14:48<LA>so.. I can tell my German teacher 'Ich war gefaulenzt gestern'?
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>LA: no, "faul" is the base of the word. means "lazy"
14:48<LA>when she asks me why my homework isn't done
14:48<planetmaker>LA: no it's "Ich habe gefaulenzt"
14:48<@Rubidium>LA: maybe something like "Ich habe Aufschieberitis"
14:48<planetmaker>hehe ^
14:48<Ammler>Aufgeschoben ist nicht aufgehoben!
14:49<LA>:)
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>"Morgen, morgen, nur nicht heute, sagen alle faulen Leute"
14:50*frosch123 usually uses "next week" instead of "tomorrow" in that case
14:50<planetmaker>:-D
14:50<Ammler>so lala is doing some sprite work?
14:52<planetmaker>LA mach so lala ein paar Grafiken? ;-)
14:52*planetmaker hides
14:54<LA>Nein, Ich kann nicht so gut Zeichnungen zeichnen. :(
14:54<LA>ich*
14:56<Ammler>dann malst du halt
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14:58<LA>Aber ich finde malsten nicht interessant.
14:58<LA>malen*
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15:04<PeterT>who is LA?
15:04<PeterT>Short for something?
15:07<Ammler>short for lala :-)
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15:08<Ammler>actually, he is one of the founder of OpenGFX
15:08<planetmaker>La: your graphics were quite nice for "ich kann nicht zeichnen"
15:08<Zuu>Playing "destroy AI vehicles" is a bit more fun against an AI that fight back a bit. :-)
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15:14<Alberth>'open company window of the ai, click 4 times at 'buy 25%' ;)
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15:18<DJNekkid>is all cargotypes needed in the action3 for railtypes?
15:19-!-Timmaexx [~Germany@port-92-192-36-74.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:19<DJNekkid>my gfx dont show ingame, and i've basicly copied peters ng-track code
15:20<DJNekkid>but i only use cargotype 01
15:20<DJNekkid>(track overlay)
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15:31<frosch123>i guess the action0 properties, esp. railtype translationtable are more important
15:39<peter1138>DJNekkid, you need 01 and 02
15:39<peter1138>at least
15:41<DJNekkid>oki :)
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15:43<DJNekkid>i'll try adding 02 as well and see what happens :)
15:44<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19372 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: CheckTileOwnership() returns a CommandCost.
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15:45<DJNekkid>yea,that worked :D
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16:16<Eddi|zuHause>action 1/2/3 form a chain
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>action 3 defines which action 2 to use
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>action 2 defines which action 1 to use
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>(varaction 2 can do a bit more than that)
16:19<Alberth>Is here anybody with powers to change http://www.ttdpatch.net/grfcodec/ ? The svn reference of grfcodec refers to a 4 years old revision
16:20<@Rubidium>Alberth: I doubt it; if DaleStan could have done it I think he would have done it already
16:21<Ammler>looks like patchman josef
16:21<SpComb^>/msg patchman
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16:58<Eddi|zuHause>has anybody even seen patchman in the last 4 years?
16:59<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, in #tycoon
16:59<Zuu>Cyclic dependant AI libraries gives some fat nice error messages :-)
16:59<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause:
16:59<PeterT><PeterT> !seen patchman
16:59<PeterT><patchbot> PeterT: Queried user last spoke 3d 3h ago. patchman was last active in this channel.
17:02<SpComb^>Eddi|zuHause: he's more active on IRC than one might first believe
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17:09<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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17:19<Chruker>Does the RC installer help with installing the opengfx and opensfx? Compared to the manual installs
17:20<planetmaker>yes
17:20<planetmaker>but you could just try
17:21<Chruker>I didnt wanted to mess up all directories and batch files I have in place to run other versions.
17:22<planetmaker>each version can safely have it's own dir.
17:22<planetmaker>and they could (should?) share their newgrf and data dirs. Saves you much copying and makes everything available to all versions
17:23<planetmaker>section 4.2 of the readme tells you where to look
17:23<planetmaker>different OpenTTD versions can co-exist each in its own dir without cross-influencing others
17:26<Nite_Owl>sharing the data directory is easier
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17:31<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19373 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19372): Missing variable declaration.
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17:35<thingwath>Nice fix. I was about to complain in the next few minutes. :)
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17:38<Terkhen>:)
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17:43<HackaLittleBit>can anybody have a look at line 257 water_cmd.cpp , Albert forgot to declare 'CommandCost' ret
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>you mean "-Fix (r19372): Missing variable declaration."?
17:44<thingwath>:)
17:44<HackaLittleBit>Argh :)
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17:58<Terkhen>good night
17:58<HackaLittleBit>night too
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17:58<@Rubidium>ciao
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18:28<Zuu>Poor bus, got stuck under a bridge :-)
18:29<Zuu>poor me, didn't got to dig a hole under the bridge. :-(
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19:24<PeterT>On ubuntu linux, where does "make install" install OpenTTD to?
19:24<Zuu>Oo, now OpenTTD asserted when I clicked on the GoTo button of an AdmiralAI train. Had the debugger attached so I have the call stack. I'll just keep visual studio open overnight.
19:25<FauxFaux>PeterT: The path, one would hope. :P
19:25<PeterT>Wha?
19:25<FauxFaux>As in, you should be able to run it just by typing "openttd" or "rehash; openttd".
19:26<FauxFaux>(noquotes0
19:27<Zuu>It was asertion on line 515 in window_gui.h if anyone reads this. The whole window instance seems to be invalid.
19:29<PeterT>FauxFaux: hold on
19:29<PeterT>FauxFaux: http://paste.openttd.org/225199
19:30<@Rubidium>hmm, you cheated between companies or so?
19:30<@Rubidium>anyhow, a stack trace and bug report on FS would be useful
19:31<Zuu>Rubidium: I have certainly did that within that game.
19:31<FauxFaux>PeterT: make install didn't do what I expect. I have no idea why. ¬_¬ Ask a linux user.
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19:31<thingwath>PeterT: Look into Makefile, it's quite simple.
19:37<PeterT>thanks for the help
19:37<PeterT>thingwath: I would do that, but I'm using SSH :-P
19:38<FauxFaux>vim! \o/
19:38<PeterT>yarr
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19:38<PeterT>"vim makefile" makes a new file
19:38<thingwath>_M_akefile
19:38<thingwath>case sensitive :)
19:39<PeterT>Thanks
19:39<PeterT>INSTALL_DIR = /
19:39<fireun>I've added newgrf "FIRS industry replacement" which is great, many more sub industries... but playing heightmaps, it hardly populates the new industries.. how do I fix? Or more to the point, is there another way to make a more diverse industry game that is balanced?
19:40<fireun>the default hardly has any industries
19:40<thingwath>PeterT: BIN_DIR?
19:40<PeterT>BIN_DIR = /home/trunk/bin
19:40<PeterT>But I would /like/ to install it, like a .deb
19:40<fireun>also, at a certain point in the game, all the industries start to die off but no new ones start up... how do I fix that?
19:41<thingwath>Isn't there an openttd package in debian/ubuntu repositories?
19:41<PeterT>An updated one?
19:41<@Rubidium>thingwath: there is
19:41<fireun>thingwath: depends on which version of debian
19:42<PeterT>Rubidium/thingwath: 1.0.0-RC2, or still that old 0.7.3 version?
19:42<PeterT>fireun: 9.10
19:42<fireun>PeterT: thats ubuntu (:
19:42<PeterT>fireun: I think there is a setting for new industries appearing
19:42<PeterT>Right
19:42<@Rubidium>fireun: for any reasonable version of Debian, okay... it's not in the version that's going to be obsoleted like next week (i.e. oldstable)
19:42<fireun>PeterT: debian sid has the 1.0-rc2 package, ubuntu should be close
19:43<@Rubidium>fireun: actually, Ubuntu lags a lot with OpenTTD packages
19:43<fireun>I just downloaded the binary gzip
19:43<fireun>Rubidium: thats a shame
19:44<fireun>Rubidium: openttd is fairly polished at this point, except for my complaints as stated above (:
19:44<@Rubidium>fireun: FIRS adds more restrictions to where industries may be build. As such it is harder for OpenTTD to place them; after (IIRC) 1000 attempts it stops
19:44<fireun>Rubidium: ahh, ok.
19:44<thingwath>I guess that nothing in the build process had changed since the last stable version, so it should be very easy to make updated package.
19:45<fireun>Rubidium: then maybe its "ex's citybuilder I have loaded then for that"
19:45<@Rubidium>so there's the problem... without industry NewGRF you get 'too much' industries, with NewGRF industries you get 'too few' industries
19:45<thingwath>(But I don't know how deb packages are made, I use rpm...)
19:46<fireun>Rubidium: I didnt quite understand that
19:46<@Rubidium>fireun: oh, that NewGRF might even disable automatic building of industries after game creation. However, FIRS then overrides the production (thus closure) control. So ex's "don't close" code gets overridden
19:46<fireun>I'm open to using another "mod" to give me more industries that come and go, I'm a new player and need lots of diverse options.
19:47<fireun>Rubidium: I'll try just playing with "EX's citybuilder" then
19:47<@Rubidium>fireun: first start by just not using ex's NewGRF
19:47<fireun>hrmph
19:47<fireun>but I like diamonds and water towers ):
19:47<@Rubidium>that might at least solve the problem you have with FIRS
19:47<fireun>FIRS sounds harder
19:48<fireun>which I dont need (:
19:48<fireun>still working with economy, scale, and time costs
19:48<@Rubidium>fireun: using multiple NewGRFs that change the industries and are not coded to work together is going to create lots of problems
19:48<fireun>I was moving diamonds with train near a city, then transfering to truck to get them into the center of the city.. thats the kind of gameplay I
19:48<fireun>I'd like to work on.
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19:49<fireun>Rubidium: understood, I was experimenting (new user again)
19:49<fireun>now that I know more of what I'm looking for, trying to narrow it down
19:49<fireun>which seems like something similar to "EXs"
19:50<fireun>but thats why I'm here now, with open ears
19:51<@Rubidium>thingwath: Ubuntu doesn't update OpenTTD's package; they just import it from Debian
19:51<thingwath>Is it still possible to use Debian repositories in Ubuntu (as it was few years ago)?
19:52<Zuu>Rubidium: bug posted as FS#3671. Poke me if you need something more than the call stack. I would love to upload something more usable but haven't yet found out how to export something more than a plain copy of the call stack.
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19:52<@Rubidium>thingwath: yes, but only if packages are compatible
19:54<@Rubidium>thingwath: in short, OpenTTD from Debian's repository does not work in Ubuntu
19:55<@Rubidium>not to mention that Ubuntu's default sound configuration causes a lot of problems with SDL
19:56<OwenS>Zuu: Does VS not support saving minidumps?
19:56<Zuu>Probably in > Express and maybe even in express but I haven't found any such option in the menus.
19:57<OwenS>Heh. Surprising there would be no way to save a core file
19:59<@Rubidium>Zuu, a free tip for you: don't post bug reports as feature requests. They will easily be missed
19:59<Zuu>Did I do that?
19:59<OwenS>Yes
19:59<Zuu>Are you refering to the NoAI bug?
20:00<OwenS>Zuu: FS3671, the one you just made
20:00<@Rubidium>FS#3671
20:00<Zuu>Ok, that was not intended. Sory for that.
20:00<Zuu>Even Sorry*
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20:04<@Rubidium>Zuu: are you really sure about http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=862579#p862579 ? If so that is a bug and could you please report that?
20:04<PeterT>anyone familiar with Linux's terminal dpkg? http://paste.openttd.org/225200
20:05<OwenS>PeterT: The first error is a showstopper. If it were the only error, the second could be resolved by installing libicu42
20:05<PeterT>Why is it a show stopper?
20:05<PeterT>can't it be resolved?
20:06<Zuu>Rubidium: I though it was a feature that AI developers would know where the AI is located that hangs while users do not need to edit their pngs because they have a super secret directory structure on their computer.
20:06<OwenS>PeterT: By upgrading FontConfig to 2.8. I'm not intimately familiar with FontConfig, but I'm going to assume it's a pretty important bit of plumbing you shouldn't mess with
20:06<PeterT>So I'm royally screwed?
20:06<`Fuco`>try apt-get -f install
20:06<FauxFaux>/o\
20:07<OwenS>`Fuco`: You mean dpkg --force-dependencies (or whatever it is)? :P
20:07<`Fuco`>i was installing ottd from deb package yesterday
20:08<`Fuco`>and i had some dependency problems
20:08<`Fuco`>so i did ^^ that
20:08<`Fuco`>and it was all ok :P
20:08<Zuu>Rubidium: I just tested, and the directory structure for plain dirs are also truncated in r19371.
20:08<PeterT>`Fuco`: http://paste.openttd.org/225201
20:08<PeterT>it just uninstalled it
20:09<@Rubidium>Zuu: okay
20:09<Zuu>I'll post a correction on the forums to not comfuse more people. :-)
20:09<thingwath>Hm, maybe you could try to install that libicu42, and then just force openttd install, and try if it will work with that older fontconfig.
20:10<PeterT>Zuu: I'll delete my post
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20:10<@Rubidium>when will $MORON learn that Debian != Ubuntu and if it doesn't work it is better to not 'heroically' mess with the system to try to make it work?
20:11<OwenS>And that, really, checkinstall (iirc?) works pretty well for these things
20:11<FauxFaux>Rubidium: Right after switching to packagekit lololol.
20:11<thingwath>This won't cause any harm. If it won't work, you just remove openttd package, as if nothing had happened.
20:13<@Rubidium>for those who suggest forcing to use a lower version of a library than the package requires: Debian's library versioning stuff is pretty smart; it requires the first version of a library that has all the stuff the binary expects. So if the ABI changes but the binary doesn't use the changed part of the ABI it will give you a lower version as requirement.
20:14<@Rubidium>so if it asks for fontconfig 2.8 it means that it wants that ABI; anything older does not have that ABI and even though the dynamic linker might link the ABIs incompatible and can thus cause random unexplainable memory corruption crashes
20:14<Zuu>PeterT: Thanks, now I've edited my post.
20:14<PeterT>Ok :-)
20:14<OwenS>In other words: If it crashes, you get to keep the pieces!
20:15<PeterT>Zuu: Hehe, nice :-)
20:15<Zuu>Yea, you got to shine a bit :-)
20:15<PeterT>lol
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20:18<thingwath>In that case, rebuild the package, well. Should be quite trivial, if the only real problem is ABI mismatch. (I'd suggest that first, if I knew how hard is it to rebuild DEB package.)
20:19<PeterT>I just rebuilt the deb package and installed it, some errors though
20:19<PeterT>thingwath: http://paste.openttd.org/225202
20:22<thingwath>Is there some build log?
20:22<PeterT>thingwath: Never mind
20:22<PeterT>thingwath: It works now
20:23<PeterT>in-fact, #petert has Avignon running
20:25<Zuu>Night
20:26<PeterT>Good night, Zuu
20:28<thingwath>Hm, so moral of this story is to don't try to mix debian and ubuntu repositories. Good to know.
20:31<@Rubidium>yes
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20:32<@Rubidium>at least don't try it if you have no clue about the deeper consequences of your actions
20:32<thingwath>Generally I use the rule, that apt-get suggesting a removal of something means no go :)
20:33<@Rubidium>that's a good strategy
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 08 00:00:01 2010