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#openttd IRC Logs for 2010-03-13

---Logopened Sat Mar 13 00:00:08 2010
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00:16<DanMacK>Hey all
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02:42<Yexo>AIIndustry.IsStrangeIndustry(industry_type_id) <- lol, the api suggestions keep getting funnier
02:43<Yexo>AIIndustry.WhatCargoIsNeededToProceedBeforeThatCargo <- .... at least the naming is clear
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03:23<TrueBrain>people are strange, does it make me a stranger (8)
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03:32-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@130.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
03:32<Terkhen>good morning
03:33<andythenorth>morning
03:34<TrueBrain># The morning has broken, like the first morning
03:35<TrueBrain># Blackbird has spoken, like the first bird
03:35<TrueBrain># Praise for the sining, praise for the morning
03:35<TrueBrain># Praise for the springing fresh from the word
03:37<roboboy>hello
03:42<TrueBrain># You say goodbye, and I say hello
03:42<TrueBrain># Hello hello
03:42<TrueBrain># I don't know why you say goodbye
03:42<TrueBrain># I say hello
03:42<TrueBrain># Hello hello
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03:55<dih>lol Yexo :-)
03:55<dih>morning TrueBrain
03:55<Singaporekid>Pikka: stand on dispenser
03:58*andythenorth looking for song lyrics
03:58*andythenorth stops looking for song lyrics
03:59<dih>andythenorth->getNumSongLyricsFound();
04:02*andythenorth is a bit scared of railtypes
04:03<Pikka>Singaporekid: I did
04:03<Singaporekid>http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8412/veryfewminutesinmspaint.png
04:04<Pikka>vert
04:04<Pikka>very, too
04:09<@peter1138>no you
04:18<DJNekkid>is the railtypes limit in one game 16 types?
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04:21<@peter1138>yes
04:24<DJNekkid>oki :)
04:32<Pikka>huh
04:32<Pikka>why is my grf doing funny things with station names viz industries... D:
04:33<@Rubidium>because that's how you coded it?
04:33<Pikka>possibly
04:33<Pikka>but setting property 24 to 0 doesn't stop it.. it just makes it act weird in a different way...
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04:35*Pikka pokes it some
04:40<Pikka>how peculiar
04:41<Pikka>putting in an actual text id works perfectly... putting 0(0 00) doesn't.
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05:19<CIA-6>OpenTTD: terkhen * r19397 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt toolbar_gui.cpp): -Add: Enter the starting year at the scenario editor by clicking at the date panel.
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06:43<OwenS>Oh god. I'vbe just spent hours tracking down what I thought was memory corruption. What was it? This: Fragment* frags[]; private: Size m_hash;. >____M
06:43<OwenS>>___<**
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06:47<SmatZ>I don't see anything obviously wrong in that, OwenS
06:47<OwenS>SmatZ: frags[]. I.E, zero length array (For putting a block of memory at the end of a structure)
06:48<@peter1138>which is not at the end
06:48<SmatZ>oh :)
06:48<SmatZ>strange compiler didn't warn
06:48<OwenS>Weird interation of C++ and C99 features not generating an error :p
06:48<OwenS>So my string gets hashed... then the hash replaces the first fragment pointer. Wonderful!
06:49<SmatZ>hehe
06:51<OwenS>This also explains how the pointer ended up as the ASCII value of 'i'... Because hashing a single character string results in the character's codepoint as it's value :p
06:52<@peter1138>lovely hash algorithm ;p
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06:52<SmatZ>:)
06:52<OwenS>peter1138: Same as Java uses. For longer strings, it produces better values ;-)
06:52<OwenS>Besides, I haven't found a better algorithm for UTF-16 strings
06:53<OwenS>it seems std::tr1::hash_value(int i) = i as well :p
06:55<@peter1138>people use utf-16? o_O
06:55<OwenS>peter1138: Yes. UTF-8 is slooow to process
06:58<OwenS>(And don't talk about the bloated UCS-4...)
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06:59<@peter1138>inefficient space wise, but doesn't require any processing for long encodings
06:59<@peter1138>surrogate pairs
06:59<OwenS>Yes, but it's always at least 30% inefficient. UTF-16 surrogate pairs are easy to detect, and you can make the code in the common (none of them) case very fast with a few hints to the compiler
07:01<OwenS>Oh great
07:01<OwenS>Crash only in release builds...
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07:23<ashb>OwenS: utf-8 surrogate pairs (or tripples) are just as easy to detect
07:23<OwenS>ashb: Yes, but you encounter them more often, and they're more complex to decode. Also, they can be up to 6 bytes long
07:24<ashb>OwenS: usage outside the BMP is quite rare, isn't it?
07:24<OwenS>ashb: Yes, and both inside and outside are much simpler with UTF-16 ;-)
07:25<ashb>i never write utf8 code myself - i always let something else deal with the hassle of bytes<->code points
07:26<OwenS>My strings are "ropes", so no ready-made library can deal with them ;-)
07:27<OwenS>Aah, UTF-8 is up to 4 characters
07:27<ashb>yeah.
07:28<ashb>it depends on your needs wether 8 or 16 is better for you
07:28<ashb>(thats a generic "you")
07:28<OwenS>As I provide easy converter calls to my users, it shouldn't be a problem
07:29<OwenS>(Also, UTF-16 makes it easy to implement conversion to SCSU for minimizing string size in bytecode files :P )
07:29<ashb>SCSU?
07:30<OwenS>Simple compression scheme for Unicode
07:31<OwenS>Aah, a 6-byte series in UTF-8 means it's actually CESU-8, aka, UTF-16 converted to UTF-8 through codeunits rather than codepoints (So you get two UTF-8 sequences for supplemantary plane characters)
07:32<ashb>and thats valid utf8?
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07:32<OwenS>No, it's CESU-8, which is not a Unicode standard, but some things (E.g. Oracle and Java) use it internally
07:32<ashb>weird.
07:33<ashb>seems odd that 'compressing' it takes up more space
07:33<OwenS>Also, quite a few apps generate it because they naively convert UTF-16 to UTF-8
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07:48<Rhamphoryncus>OwenS: technically they're actually interpreting UTF-16 as UCS-2, then encoding UCS-2 as UTF-8. UCS-2 doesn't have surrogates (the space is simply unassigned characters), so that's the valid way it would convert to UTF-8
07:49<Rhamphoryncus>ashb: "utf-8 surrogate pairs" is a wtf :P
07:50<ashb>Rhamphoryncus: codepoints U+80 to U+FF take two bytes as utf8 - what else do you call them?
07:50<Rhamphoryncus>code units
07:50<ashb>never heard that term
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07:50<Rhamphoryncus>par for unicode :(
07:50<ashb>yup
07:50<ashb>unicode is hard - lets go down the pub
07:50<Rhamphoryncus>"scalar values" is now the unambiguous term, not "code points". Unfortunately the latter is ambiguous for UTF-16
07:51<ashb>doens't the spec use "code point"?
07:51<Rhamphoryncus>some
07:51<Rhamphoryncus>It uses both
07:52<Rhamphoryncus>The problem is "code point" refers to both the individual two surrogates in a pair, and the collective value they encode
07:52<ashb>i've never seen it used to be anything but the uncode character (U+XXXX)
07:53<Rhamphoryncus>I've seen both
07:53<OwenS>Rhamphoryncus: The normal term I've seen is "Code point" for a character, and "Code unit" for a 16-bit unit
07:53<Rhamphoryncus>I've also seen surrogates in UTF-32 and UTF-8 :(
07:53<ashb>surrogate in UTF-8 at least makes more sense than in UTF-32
07:54<OwenS>Rhamphoryncus: The afformentioned surrogates means CESU-8, not UTF-8 ;-)
07:54<Rhamphoryncus>OwenS: code point is common historically. Code unit is valid for all 3 encodings
07:54<OwenS>Rhamphoryncus: Heh. Did I get the definitions correct, however? (Except for the size issue there)
07:54<Rhamphoryncus>OwenS: basically yeah
07:55<OwenS>And I'm still calling it String::CodepointIterator not String::ScalarValueIterator :p
07:55<ashb>i usually refer to "byte-sequence" to mean the actualy bytes and "code point" to be the logical unicode character
07:55<Kovensky>IIUC, a code point is unique, it being the U+\d{4,} code
07:55<Kovensky>the only difference is how each unicode encoding encodes those
07:55<Kovensky>:S
07:55<Rhamphoryncus>OwenS: well, other than code point being ambiguous
07:55<OwenS>Rhamphoryncus: I'll just have to make the documentation good:p
07:56<Rhamphoryncus>OwenS: it's perfectly valid for CodepointIterator to return a single surrogate
07:56<OwenS>Rhamphoryncus: Not by my API documentation ;-)
07:56<Rhamphoryncus>OwenS: of course. It'd be stupid. What you want is Scalar Values, which is exactly the distinction
07:57<OwenS>Rhamphoryncus: People are more likely to understand CodepointIterator than ScalarValueIterator. And Scalar Value is a horrible term :p
07:57*peter1138 plays doom 2 instead
07:58<Rhamphoryncus>OwenS: only because most people refuse to switch terms.. IMO, unicode itself isn't fully committed
07:58<Rhamphoryncus>What they should have done is rename the old term
07:58<OwenS>Indeed
07:59<Rhamphoryncus>but then, there's no reason to have surrogate code points in UTF-32 or UTF-8 either
08:00<OwenS>No, there isn't
08:00<Rhamphoryncus>Anybody got a time machine?
08:00<OwenS>CESU-8 I kinda understand
08:00<ashb>why not in utf8 but yes in utf16?
08:01<Rhamphoryncus>ashb: do you reserve 0x80 through 0xFF for utf-8 code units?
08:01<OwenS>ashb: Because surrogate pairs are UTF-16's way of representing multiunit characters. UTF-8 has it's own mechanism
08:02<ashb>i always just assumed 'surrogate' was 'this unit isn't a char in its own right'
08:03<Rhamphoryncus>Functionally, a surrogate is only a code unit. Just like utf-8 code units, multiples of them combine to be a single scalar value
08:03<ashb>but utf-16 has code point explicitly used for surrogates
08:03<ashb>i always forget that
08:03<@peter1138>the utf-16 surrogate pairs use codepoints that would otherwise be valid
08:03<@peter1138>utf-8 doesn't work like that
08:03<Rhamphoryncus>But since historically UTF-8 wasn't a variable-width, those were considered to be valid (but unassigned) characters
08:04<OwenS>Rhamphoryncus: You mean UTF-16 ;-)
08:04<Rhamphoryncus>gah yes
08:04<ashb>oh its to deal with windows wchar_t not being wide enough, isn't it?
08:04<Rhamphoryncus>And I'm well rested too. Unicode talk hasn't melted my brain yet
08:04<ashb>s/deal with/an artifact of/
08:04<Rhamphoryncus>ashb: that's orthogonal
08:05<OwenS>ashb: Lots of systems used UCS-2 characters. Should they change to UCS-4? Why, when that wastes ~12 bytes per character?
08:05<OwenS>12 bits**
08:05<ashb>my point is why do those U+D800-DFFF need to be 'valid code points' - why couldn't they just be encoded differently similar to in utf8
08:06*Rhamphoryncus is still waiting for a UTF-24 encoding
08:06<ashb>OwenS: if only computers weren't so centered around powers of 2, eh?
08:06<OwenS>ashb: Hehe. Weren't so centered around bytes. You'd still be wasting 4 bits per character ;-)
08:06<Rhamphoryncus>ashb: they *don't*. It's a historical accident of retrofitting fixed-width UTF-16 (and UCS-2) into being a variable-width UTF-16
08:07<ashb>like i said earlier - i dont deal with utf16 much, and with the actual mechanics of encoding very rarely
08:07<ashb>my knowledge is enough to recognize utf8 (mis)encodings
08:07<Rhamphoryncus>Originally even the code unit/code point distinction wasn't there. Maybe for UTF-8, but I'd have to find a timeline
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08:10<OwenS>Yay! My interpreter times about as fast as Lua :-)
08:11<ashb>what are you interpreting?
08:11<OwenS>ashb: My own language :-)
08:15<Rhamphoryncus>OwenS: does it use LLVM yet? ;)
08:15<OwenS>Rhamphoryncus: Not yet
08:15<OwenS>I want a good speed baseline interpreter too
08:16<Rhamphoryncus>I don't. I want the baseline to be LLVM (just not with fancy profile-guided optimizations). Lets you easily modify how code is generated
08:16<OwenS>The reason I want the interpreter is for systems where LLVM isn't an option
08:18<Rhamphoryncus>bah, fix LLVM :D
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08:19<OwenS>But, on compilers with computed goto, my interpreter is very efficient :-)
08:19<@peter1138>LLVM?
08:19<ashb>Low-Level Virtual MAchine
08:19<OwenS>peter1138: Low Level Virtual Machine, a compiler infrastructure
08:20<ashb>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llvm
08:20<ashb>can be used as a backend for gcc, or as a runtime lib to do JIT etc.
08:20<Rhamphoryncus>err, not a backend for gcc
08:21<ashb>sure - that was why the 'etc.'
08:21<@peter1138>ah
08:21<@peter1138>yay
08:21<@peter1138>found a megasphere :D
08:21<OwenS>Rhamphoryncus: Using the new LLVM gcc plugin, it can ;-)
08:21<Rhamphoryncus>>.>
08:21<Rhamphoryncus>So what, llvm-gcc as a llvm frontend, gcc middle, and llvm backend?
08:21<ashb>/Developer/usr/bin/llvm-g++-4.2
08:21<ashb>gcc front, llvm the rest
08:22<ashb>i think
08:22<OwenS>Rhamphoryncus: The plugin replaces llvm-gcc. It plugs into GCC using its plugin interface, and replaces the backend completely
08:22*Rhamphoryncus hopes he's not the one getting it confused
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08:23<Rhamphoryncus>curse their ambiguous terminology!
08:24<Rhamphoryncus>Okay, looks like I was wrong. It's a GCC frontend (parser/etc) with LLVM for code generation
08:34<OwenS>Rhamphoryncus: So, how does your VM/language handle exceptions?
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08:36<Rhamphoryncus>I was speaking hypothetically *g*
08:36<OwenS>Rhamphoryncus: Hah. I'm currently implementing them on top of C++ exceptions. The main difficulty is correctly unwinding the script stack
08:36<OwenS>(But I have to do that to propogate things like std::bad_alloc anyway)
08:37*Rhamphoryncus nods
08:38<OwenS>Scripts can only interact with those of C++ class AS::ScriptException though, which wraps an Object implementing AS.Exception (i.e, the script-side exception class)
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08:49<fonsinchen> What is the preferred place to put new container classes? src/misc or src/core?
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08:52<SmatZ>src/core is the new src/misc I would say :)
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08:53<Alberth>what's with these container thingies? everybody seems to want to wrap existing data structures into some container class nowadays, it seems
08:54*Alberth looks in src/misc for the first time
08:54<SmatZ>:)
08:54<Alberth>hmm, directory should be called 'containers' :)
08:56<frosch123>src/misc is src/tobecleanedup
08:56<fonsinchen>ok, src/core then
08:56<fonsinchen>I'm creating an auto-growing vector to replace the arrays for GoodsEntries
08:56<fonsinchen>this will save space and time by reducing the needless cycling through empty goods entries
08:57<frosch123>isn't that just SmallVector?
08:57<fonsinchen>no, I want one that auto-constructs its entries and that auto-grows on operator[]
08:57<fonsinchen>(within bounds set by template parameter)
08:58<Alberth>at least you derive from SmallVector, I hope
08:58<fonsinchen>no, I derive from std::vector
08:58<fonsinchen>as that requires less coding for me
08:59<frosch123>you mean SmallMap ?
08:59<fonsinchen>no, smallmap doesn't provide constant-time lookup
09:00<fonsinchen>What I'm doing is an emulation of the current array, but only as long as the last active entry's index
09:00<fonsinchen>most times this will be a lot less than 32
09:00<frosch123>cargoids are not reserved consecutively, are they?
09:01<fonsinchen>in a second step I'm going to provide a static index translation table which places the most used cargo ids in front
09:01<frosch123>so you optimise for no-newgrf-usage?
09:01<fonsinchen>the translation table may be configurable on game start
09:02<fonsinchen>but the first step should cut the cycling at least in half already
09:02<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: possible stuck_trains.diff is broken on trunk HEAD?
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>very likely...
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>you mean the data part or the gui part?
09:03<Ammler>gui
09:03<Ammler>patch applied fine
09:04<Ammler>but I don't have the minimap anymore
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>even more likely, since the smallmap gui was changed fairly significantly
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09:20<@peter1138>hurr
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09:21<Pikka>hrrrrrrrrrrr
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09:26<@peter1138>pikkrrrrrr
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09:59<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19398 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Codechange: move the desync cache checking code to its own function. Also make the drive through and cargo list checks only run when 'desync' debugging is enabled.
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10:13<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19399 /trunk/src/town.h: -Doc: Doxyment enum TownRatingCheckType.
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10:33<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19400 /trunk/src/ (road_cmd.cpp town.h town_cmd.cpp tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: CheckforTownRating returns a CommandCost.
10:42<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19401 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Use curly braces with multi-line if statements.
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10:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19402 /trunk/src/ (road_cmd.cpp road_internal.h station_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: CheckAllowRemoveRoad() returns a CommandCost.
10:55<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r19403 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix (r19398): Test inverted.
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11:38<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19404 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: CheckAllowRemoveTunnelBridge() returns a CommandCost.
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11:57<geirha>1.0.0-rc2 freezes on exit for me. I've narrowed it down to the config file. If I start openttd without ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg, it exits cleanly. When that file is there, it'll freeze as soon as I click the quit button. Neither INT nor TERM has any effect. I have to resort to KILL.
11:57<+glx>geirha: read readme.txt
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12:07<Alberth>the known-bugs.txt may also be helpful
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12:09<geirha>Ah, I was looking at bugs.openttd.org without luck. The SDL+PulseAudio bug listed in known-bugs.txt sounds like the culprit.
12:12<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19405 /trunk/src/ (15 files): -Codechange: CheckOwnership() returns a CommandCost.
12:12<+glx>ha right I suggested the wrong file :)
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12:14<geirha>Yup, setting the env var SDL_AUDIODRIVER=pulse did the trick. Thanks :)
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12:36<Ammler>he, "Hide stupid Pink" :-)
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12:38<frosch123>:p
12:38<Ammler>how do I "simulate" those building "magic browns"?
12:38<frosch123>you mean wrong dos/win ?
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12:41<Ammler>no, the houses, which can change colors...
12:41<frosch123>either company color, structure remap or church remap
12:42<frosch123>they are all different :p
12:42<Ammler>ah, structure remap it is
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12:46<Ammler>planetmaker: // Recolour: BLUE, GREEN, ORANGE, RED <-- means remap to company colors and // Recolour: STRUCT_BLUE, STRUCT_WHITE <-- to structure?
12:46<frosch123>that would match tables/sprites.h
12:47<Ammler>and where is documented which colors are used for those structure remap?
12:47<planetmaker>Ammler: most probable, yes
12:48<frosch123>Ammler: see "filter palette"
12:48<frosch123>or get the source and look into recolor.xml
12:48<planetmaker>:-D
12:48<planetmaker>well, struct is structure. Not CC and not church.
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12:49<planetmaker>Maybe I should have made the comments CC_BLUE etc
12:49<Ammler>nah, it is fine
12:50<Ammler>frosch123: you filter "recolor colors" which looks like cc
12:51<frosch123>it filters whatever you selected
12:51<Ammler>yes, but there is nothing to select those "magic brown"
12:52<planetmaker>hm... there's also just CREAM and DARK_GREEN, PINK, GRAY, RED in my comments
12:52<planetmaker>and BROWN, YELLOW, ORANGE
12:52<frosch123>?
12:52<planetmaker>in the comments I added to the sprites in Opengfx
12:52<frosch123>i meant ammler :)
12:53<planetmaker>Ammler: the house just has to feature the colours which are of that magic type
12:53<planetmaker>and openttd will randomly choose a replacement for those magic colours
12:54<Ammler>but the "map" should be documented somewhere, isn't?
12:54<frosch123>Ammler: if you select "filter recolored colors", it excludes those colors from the top palette which are recolored by the recolor choosen below
12:54<Ammler>I mean, Zeph was able to remove those :-)
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12:54<planetmaker>yes, that's what the ttd palete without magic colours does
12:54<planetmaker>*palette
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12:55<Ammler>frosch123: I see, thanks :-)
12:58<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19406 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: unneeded space in English string
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>who needs space anyway
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12:59<Ammler>planetmaker: looks like you forgot one color?
13:00<Ammler>or what sense does have a remap to only one?
13:00<planetmaker>hm?
13:01<planetmaker>I don't know :-) Maybe I forgot default. Whatever that is.
13:01<Ammler>hmm, indeed, might be STRUCT_BROWN
13:02<Ammler>no, that is also an additional option
13:02<Ammler>STRUCT_NORMAL is another "brown"
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13:06<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19407 /trunk/src/lang/ (32 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: incorrect number of dots in '...' in translations
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13:13<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19408 /trunk/src/lang/ (45 files in 2 dirs): -Change: make the space after ... consistent in the translations too
13:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19409 /trunk/src/lang/ (46 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: remove some spaces from translations that were already removed from English (a long while ago)
13:23<__ln__>who's guilty for changing the english without changing IDs?
13:25<@Rubidium>removing a space isn't really such a big reason to trash all translations
13:31<@peter1138>why would we change IDs just because a string changed ?
13:32<__ln__>to avoid unsynchronized translations maybe. dunno. maybe you like those.
13:33<@Rubidium>just trash the translations. Works much better
13:33<@peter1138>looks to me that the translations were also all changed...
13:33<Ammler>is there a easy way to convert a already "right" colored png to pcx?
13:33<planetmaker>__ln__: how does a removed space unsyncs a translation?
13:33<@peter1138>so nothing is unsynced
13:34<@peter1138>even so, the WT system flags up when the english string is changed
13:34<__ln__>planetmaker: how would i know
13:36<__ln__>peter1138: fine. i was simply assuming that since the WT is written by MiHaMiX, it does everything against the common sense, like in the good old days.
13:37<planetmaker>__ln__: WT isn't written by Mihamax.
13:37<planetmaker>or mihamix. whatever
13:37<planetmaker>at least not the current WT3
13:37<@Rubidium>planetmaker: WT is, WT2 is too, WT3 isn't
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r19410 /trunk/src/lang/ (12 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: esperanto - 41 changes by Ailanto
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: estonian - 4 changes by irve
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
13:46<frosch123>Ammler: what is "right coloured"? palettised with animation colours, or real coloured without animation colours?
13:47<Ammler>frosch123: I just need to open it in gimp, apply ttd palette and save again as pcx
13:47<frosch123>so the latter
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13:48<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r19411 /branches/1.0/src/lang/ (52 files in 2 dirs): [1.0] -Backport from trunk: language updates
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13:52<Eddi|zuHause>hmzz... this game is crashing way too often...
13:54<Ammler>frosch123: I have also no idea, how to save a "palettisised" png :-)
13:55<@Rubidium>Ammler: check OpenTTD's screenshot code
13:56<Ammler>Rubidium: I meant in GIMP
13:56<Ammler>If I add a index, I just get a lot options on saving
13:56<Ammler>still*
13:56<@Rubidium>reduce colour depth to 256, load the palette, save?
13:57<Ammler>specially the compression rate confuses me
13:58<@Rubidium>Ammler: why? It's just the gzip compression 'rate', i.e. 0..9 (but scaled to 0-100%)
13:58<@Rubidium>s/gzip/zlib/
13:58<Ammler>oh, that would explain :-)
13:58<Ammler>I thought, it is something with quality, like on jpegs
13:59<planetmaker>nope. Both have kinda in-built zlib support
14:00<@Rubidium>planetmaker: jpeg has some data compression, but it gets most of it's compression from trashing data (i.e. lossy compression)
14:00<@Rubidium>png is lossless
14:01<planetmaker>I meant to compare pcx and png. Not jpg ;-)
14:02<planetmaker>and jpg is bad, I know. Never use it to measure anything.
14:03<@Rubidium>well pcx just uses RLE, slightly simpler than zlib
14:03<OwenS>planetmaker: JPEG is good for photographs ;-)
14:04<OwenS>Rubidium: "Slightly?" Much!
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14:04<planetmaker>OwenS: depends
14:05<@Rubidium>OwenS: calling zlib is really easy, making sure the 'user' has zlib is the difficult part; for RLE you probably have to copy some code from somewhere or implement it yourself
14:06<OwenS>Rubidium: RLE can be implemented in 10 lines of C. It's also often a file fattener ;-)
14:06<planetmaker>any windoze has some RLE decoder at least. Might even be encoder
14:07<@Rubidium>yeah, and zip is (occasionally) better than 7z
14:08<OwenS>Yes, but what I'm saying is that RLE is basically useless ;-)
14:08<planetmaker>OwenS: also that depends.
14:09<planetmaker>If speed is your top priority, RLE can be what you can afford while anything else is too CPU intensive
14:09<OwenS>If you're looking for speed, then RLE may be a good option anyway: It can often make faster code, at the expense of bigger files
14:10<planetmaker>E.g. for live compressing video.
14:10<OwenS>RLE is going to make video bigger. Just store the raw video, or use something useful and fast like HufYUV
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14:11<@Rubidium>pff... why not put your computer in a time dilation "field"?
14:11<planetmaker>the equipment was too bulky, Rubidium ;-)
14:12<SmatZ>OwenS: unless it's a cartoon :)
14:12<SmatZ>in 256 colours :-p
14:12<OwenS>SmatZ: Riiight... And thats live? :p
14:13<SmatZ>OwenS: depends :)
14:13<OwenS>Someone really ought to make a codec designed for animated works, as all the current ones are suboptimal
14:14<SmatZ>when I want high-quality compression, I use some mpeg4 encoder with very high-quality settings
14:14<OwenS>MPEG4? Ewww
14:14<OwenS>H.264
14:14<SmatZ>it's about ten times smaller than huffyuv output
14:14<SmatZ>well, I haven't encoded video for long time :)
14:14<SmatZ>guess H.264 is the way to go now...
14:15<OwenS>Even my phone does H.264 :p
14:15<SmatZ>your phone rocks :)
14:15<OwenS>It's only an relatively el-cheapo Nokia 5800 :p
14:15<OwenS>And nothing is more irritating than MPEG-4 ASP HD. Why? A) Huge for the quality B) HTPC can't play it (GPU doesn't accelerate MPEG-4 ASP...)
14:17<SmatZ>what does new realvideo use? I saw some DVD-rip that had about 400MiB, and the quality was insane
14:17<OwenS>Probably H.264?
14:17<SmatZ>better than any 2CD RIPs I have seen :)
14:17<OwenS>Or RMVB
14:17<OwenS>Whatever. DVD rips are easy
14:17<SmatZ>well yes
14:18<SmatZ>it's easier to just copy the DVD :)
14:18<@Rubidium>dd if=/dev/cdrom of=themovie
14:18<OwenS>And leave non-generation-lossed MPEG-2 + DTS (Or AC3) :-)
14:18<@Rubidium>mplayer themovie
14:18<SmatZ>:)
14:19<OwenS>Rubidium: I prefer my script which converts it into a nice Matroska file ;-)
14:20<Ammler>Rubidium: you need cut off the FBI
14:20<OwenS>(Though remuxing in the vobsubs is difficult ;-) )
14:21<@Rubidium>Ammler: then it isn't a proper rip anymore!
14:21<Ammler>yeah, it is like bugfix release :-)
14:21<OwenS>Your DVDs have FBI warnings? :P
14:22<Ammler>I run my dvds through dvd:rip
14:23<Ammler>a nice app, where you can add all idle pcs in the network :-)
14:23<SmatZ>http://apina.biz/26849.jpg :)
14:24<Ammler>he, that is indeed true.
14:26<OwenS>Ammler: Get a DVD player which doesn't obey operation restriction flags :p
14:26-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@130.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...]
14:26<OwenS>(Also, none of my DVDs have trailers... Neither does the sole BD in my collection)
14:27<Ammler>OwenS: I don't have a DVD player anymore (except the pc)
14:27<Ammler>the tv box does use vlc streams
14:28*KenjiE20 uses AnyDVD for watching my imported R1 EVA discs :)
14:28<KenjiE20>but that's win only
14:28<OwenS>KenjiE20: Why import the R1 version? :p
14:29<KenjiE20>because it was the limited platinum edition
14:29<KenjiE20>and R2 gets crap all for Anime
14:29<OwenS>Aah, limited platinum. I have the non-limited-platinum I assume
14:29<OwenS>Though yes I do have some R1 imports
14:29<KenjiE20>Limited had a numbered decal in DVD 1
14:30<KenjiE20>which came with the boxset box
14:30<KenjiE20>but I bought the full set off Animesuperstore on promotion :P
14:30<OwenS>It's a shame ADV/Their fission fragments are so small, they had a pretty good international operation
14:31<KenjiE20>most licenced stuff gets utterly mangled
14:31-!-Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d822db7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: bis dann]
14:31<KenjiE20>so I usually grab stuff from fansub sites
14:31<OwenS>I must say, in a comparison of the original vs R1/R2eu releases, I've generally not spotted any differences in the video
14:32<KenjiE20>depends who get it usually
14:32<KenjiE20>funimation are awful
14:32<KenjiE20>and buerna vista/disney tend to rewrite things
14:33<OwenS>If you're refering to them seeminly using the world's worst MPEG-2 encoder, I understand that :P
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14:34<KenjiE20>funimation like to remux things
14:34<KenjiE20>they've been know to utterly change soundtracks and story
14:34<OwenS>[citation needed]
14:34<Ammler>frosch123: FeatureRequest for TTDViewer: drag&drop scroll for the sprite sheet.
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the "feature" that Day of the Tentacle contains Maniac Mansion is only in the CD version, right?
14:36<KenjiE20>OwenS: DBZ / Sunabouzu
14:36<KenjiE20>GSG / Fullmetal Alch
14:38<OwenS>Aah, so except for Sunabouzu (Which I've never heard about), really rather popular shows which I'm not that interested in (And it must be noted that I also check reviews before I buy ;-))
14:39<KenjiE20>Sunabouzu is brilliant, but get fansubs
14:41<frosch123>Ammler: there is already a feature of the day
14:42-!-tdev [~tdev@p57B7BA31.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:43<Ammler>ok, then I will ask tomorrow again :-P
14:45<OwenS>KenjiE20: Oh, and there really needs to be an English re-release (Preferably Blu-Ray; the film stock has the resolution) of the original Eva movies. I don't know WHAT made them think it was a good idea to take a widescreen movie, then letterbox it, then pillarbox it, so that you end up with it squashed into 1/3rd of the available pixels...
14:46<KenjiE20>yea probably
14:46<KenjiE20>I grabbed COR and...
14:47<KenjiE20>oh not COR, zx releases of Death and End of
14:47<KenjiE20>both 2003 remasters
14:47<KenjiE20>currently last rebuild 1.20 BD rip and waiting for the 2.xx
15:04<CIA-6>OpenTTD: alberth * r19412 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Codechange (r9942): One pair of parentheses is enough.
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15:14<RainbowNines>hi all
15:22<@Rubidium>hi
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16:10<DJNekkid>just some advertiseing for myselv...
16:10<DJNekkid>www.clublife.no/tv live from a club from about midnight
16:10<TrueBrain>you do know what we do with spambots here, right? :)
16:10*TrueBrain hugs DJNekkid :)
16:11-!-lestat [~Mesias7.4@222.232.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
16:11<DJNekkid>they get hugged?
16:11<OwenS>yay! The Alterscript interpreter just dynamically built an object based on typeinfo
16:18<Alberth>DJNekkid: with TB you never know what happens
16:20<lestat>hi all
16:20<lestat>hal someone who speaks Spanish?
16:21<@Rubidium>I guess at least 3
16:21<lestat>who?
16:22<Terkhen>lestat: I still talk spanish
16:22<lestat>XD
16:25<lestat>then enters openttd-es
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17:07<@peter1138>bah
17:07*peter1138 ponders updating to squeeze
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17:16<Terkhen>my debian squeeze freezes a lot :/
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17:23<fonsinchen>mine works fine
17:24<fonsinchen>it finally has working suspend
17:24<fonsinchen>to disk AND to ram - this is really nice
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17:37<Terkhen>good night
17:37<fonsinchen>rubidium: in CheckCaches, you should return if _debung_desync < 1
17:37-!-Terkhen [~Terkhen@130.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...]
17:37<fonsinchen>not if it's > 1 ...
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17:41<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: rather <= 1
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17:52<fonsinchen>that'd be OK
17:52-!-Booth is now known as Chris_Booth
17:52<frosch123>i like it as it is
17:52-!-Chris_Booth is now known as Booth
17:53-!-Booth is now known as Chris_Booth
17:53<andythenorth>did transfer payments get seriously fixed? The last vehicle in the chain now seems to make money
17:54<@Rubidium>no
17:54<@Rubidium>it's more like a painkiller
17:55<Jolteon>offs
17:55<Jolteon>this old 0.7.* save won't load.
17:55<Jolteon>OTTD just crashes to desktop.
17:55<Jolteon>Is there any known issues, or is this save just dodgy.
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17:55<Jolteon>Loading under 1.0.0 RC1
17:55<@Rubidium>Jolteon: no idea
17:55<Jolteon>er
17:55<Jolteon>RC2
17:55<Jolteon>even
17:55-!-Chris_Booth [~Chris_Boo@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust443.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
17:55<Jolteon>oh well, I can finally make another one
17:55<@Rubidium>having the savegame would help
17:56<Jolteon>for some reason, I always feel I must complete one I start, until it gets too jammed to fix.
17:56<@Rubidium>determining whether it's a bug or a broken savegame
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17:59<fonsinchen>I think I've hit the wall with those optimizations ...
18:00<fonsinchen>one should think that reducing all iterations over goods entries by 2/3 would have a noticable effect
18:00<fonsinchen>but that's not the case :(
18:01<fonsinchen>maybe it's still nice that it takes less memory now ...
18:02<@Rubidium>maybe because at the first autosave the full array gets filled because it's trying to write the whole thing to the savegame?
18:03<@Rubidium>same with loading "old" savegames
18:04<fonsinchen>no, I've changed the saveload code to avoid that
18:05<fonsinchen>and I've made sure the goods arrays are compacted after loading old games
18:06<fonsinchen>but obviously the added overhead of length checks and pointer dereferencing is about the same as the time saved by reducing the number of iterations
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>orudge: i tried disabling the "Display images within posts" option in the forum, which in itself works fine, but i have two problems:
18:08<OwenS>fonsinchen: Does the OpenTTD source have LIKELY/UNLIKELY macros?
18:08-!-kd5pbo [~kd5pbo@99.65.9.161] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>1) when opening some attachments i get "unknown mime type", so images don't open in the image viewer etc.
18:08<fonsinchen>what is that?
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>2) when someone makes [url=blah][img][/url], i cannot click on it to follow the url, it only can open the image
18:09<fonsinchen>at least I haven't seen them so far
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: i suppose they should tell the compiler which code path to optimise
18:09<PeterT>Eddi|zuHause: PM, he probably isn't on his bouncer right now
18:10<OwenS>fonsinchen: http://codepad.org/CmjQYvGF
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>PeterT: he isn't marked as away...
18:10<OwenS>fonsinchen: I've found that they can make real differences on intensively accessed code
18:11<fonsinchen>interesting ...
18:11<OwenS>You probably want to change the "#if GCC" to something that works :p
18:16<fonsinchen>Hmm, when loading a "new" savegame it's faster. I guess the compacting of the old save was quite expensive.
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18:53<PeterT>Terkhen?
18:53<PeterT>meh, he left
18:54<PeterT>Anybody have success in using the shell script to make a map: http://paste.openttd.org/225248
18:54<PeterT>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=33956
18:55<Illegal_Alien>Mapput?
18:55<Illegal_Alien>Muppat?
18:55<Illegal_Alien>Muppet?
18:56<Illegal_Alien>Shell as in clambshell?
18:56<Illegal_Alien>Shell as in gass?
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19:01<TrueBrain>HAPPY PI DAY!!
19:02<OwenS>lol
19:02<KenjiE20>uk doesn't get one :(
19:03<Spoons>14/03/2010 (local) nor 2010-03-14 looks even remotely like pie!
19:03-!-Spoons is now known as FauxFaux
19:04<KenjiE20>no but 3.14 does in US-land
19:04<Chris_Booth>evening all
19:05<TrueBrain>normally I have pie at pi-day ... but now it is sunday .. sucks
19:05<Chris_Booth>whats pi day?
19:06<OwenS>Chris_Booth: 14th March (3.14)
19:06<Chris_Booth>no its the 14/3
19:06<KenjiE20>pay attention Booth
19:06-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dba8e71.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:06<KenjiE20>we just went over this
19:06<KenjiE20>:)
19:06<Chris_Booth>i only just read it i am sorry KenjiE20
19:06<KenjiE20>:P
19:06<Chris_Booth>how is coop without me?
19:07<KenjiE20>fine
19:07<KenjiE20>you're unbanned btw
19:07<Chris_Booth>bet its much quiter
19:07<KenjiE20>dunno if anyone told you
19:07<Chris_Booth>i know i am
19:07<Chris_Booth>but i am to emabrased to rejoin
19:07<KenjiE20>lol
19:07<KenjiE20>learn to lock you're PC
19:07<KenjiE20>s/you're/your/
19:07<Chris_Booth>after what my housemate wrote to you can then try to give away
19:08<Chris_Booth>learnt to lock my door
19:08<TrueBrain>sure, say it was your housemate
19:08<TrueBrain>sure
19:08<KenjiE20>hah
19:08<KenjiE20>ahh the interwebs, home of cynicism
19:09<Chris_Booth>TrueBrain: put it this way it want me that typed it
19:09<Chris_Booth>i wouldnt call this person my mate persay
19:09<Chris_Booth>but i live with him
19:09-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1C23C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:09<TrueBrain>you sense no make do not
19:10-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B75B9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
19:10<TrueBrain>owh well ... you say hello, I say goodnight. Goodnight goodnight. You say hello, I say goodnight
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19:10<Chris_Booth>i make sense if you know what i am talking about
19:10<TrueBrain>even then, Chris_Booth, even then :)
19:10<KenjiE20>no you don't
19:10<TrueBrain>Night all :)
19:10<KenjiE20>:D
19:10<KenjiE20>o/
19:11<OwenS>night
19:11<OwenS>...too late it seems
19:11<Chris_Booth>its only 00:11
19:11<TrueBrain>never
19:11<OwenS>Or not. Looking in wrong place. Hiding part/join messages has it's disadvantages
19:11<TrueBrain>;)
19:13*OwenS wonders how to ascertain the type of parser he's implemented :p
19:13<KenjiE20>*somehow*
19:13<FauxFaux>OwenS: You implemented it, so it's not LR, so just say it's LL with an arbitary number afterwards.
19:14<OwenS>FauxFaux: In that case, it will be LL(1), since I only look ahead one symbol :p
19:14<OwenS>I think? I certainly don't look further ahead than the symbol I just asked the lexer for :p
19:14<FauxFaux>Unless you're imortal or something, then it's concievable you actually managed to get an LR parser to work.
19:16<OwenS>It doesn't help that the Wikipedia articles are impenetrable :p
19:16<Chris_Booth>i am not a fan of wiki
19:17<OwenS>Chris_Booth: Calling Wikipedia "wiki" is like calling the A1 "road": Calling something specific by an ambiguous name refering to what it is
19:17<Eddi|zuHause><TrueBrain> HAPPY PI DAY!! <-- i'm just wondering what they'll do in 5 years, because then it's 3/14/15
19:17<FauxFaux>The tiger book has a 20 page worked example for LR(0) nad it's still unpossible.
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19:18<OwenS>Heh. My parser comes in at 535 lines and it's not for a particularly simplistic grammar (Note to self: Write a formal description of grammar. That is, one more formal than a handcoded C++ recursive descent parser)
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19:26<Jolteon>When creating a town, is there any set pattern for creating towns?
19:26<Jolteon>Cause tiny 300 people village has 3 huge shopping malls
19:26<Jolteon>and this little village with 210 has a ruddy football stadiym
19:26<Jolteon>as iff xD
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: why do you even write a parser yourself, instead of using a parser generator like every sane person?
19:28<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: Which do you suggest? Cause Yacc/bison suck horribly
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>OwenS: what kind of "suck"?
19:28<OwenS>Eddi|zuHause: For a start, use of global variables. For another, they assume C style code
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20:46<Lapsus>Hello! :3
20:48<PeterT>Hello Lapsus
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 14 00:00:10 2010